Men teaching children's classes alone

[MinivanMom]

Thanks.

Edited September 17, 2012 by MinivanMom

[Chris in VA]

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry you are so upset.

 

I don't have the same perspective on male teachers, so it is a little hard for me to relate. It seems you start with the presumption that there is great potential for abuse and are ardently trying to prevent that by requesting only females. Am I reading that correctly? I don't start with that presumption, but I do not judge you for having it. It is what it is, and if it is your church's policy to have those particular "safeguards", then it should be enforced.

 

I do wonder, however, why you hold that belief, if you do (you certainly don't have to answer, as it is a personal question and I am aware of that!).

 

I would just carry on and make it clear that you want women only as teachers, and let this go. I would also caution you to be careful what you assume people are saying behind your back; I try hard not to think others are gossiping about me or giving "dirty" looks, without knowing for a fact what they are thinking. Often sympathy or one's discomfort with other's discomfort looks like judgement.

 

Again, I'm sorry you had a rough time.

[Murmer]

The problem with primary is that they are volunteers with no training and in some cases they are there to grow themselves. Primary presidents are regular women who are just trying to do what they do and I am sure have lots of concerns with the children in their "care". I think the problem is that as a mom we KNOW that there is a reason we are asking something and usually if we are asking it then it is very IMPORTANT to us. The hard part is getting other to realize how IMPORTANT it really is. (I am a food allergy mom, I have asked multiple times to know what food is available at primary activities so that my dd can bring appropriate options....I was blown off and had to confront the primary president about it at church and it was similar she didn't get how important it is that safe food be available and that I want to help with that but must know ahead of time). I think this is a time of grace, she probably didn't really get how IMPORTANT this was to you. But I would also be very aware of what is happening so that you can continue to show that you are trying to "help" too and not just be a problem.

[----]

.

Edited September 11, 2014 by amana

[clarkacademy]

I say this as nicely as possible. If you don't want certain people caring for your children then you should not leave them anywhere. Your making those other men look like they can't be trusted and people are having to worry about finding a sub at last minute that will suit your needs.

 

I don't know why you have this issue but it is your issue, not the churchs issue. Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

Not too add fuel to the fire but I have met quite a few women even in a church setting that I wouldn't want to care for my children. If this is a sexual nature surrounding your kids with only women is not going to be a safety net for you either. There are many sexual abusers who are women.

[Jenny in Florida]

Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

That was one of my thoughts, too.

 

I do not want to in any way "bash" the OP, but I have to wonder if making such a big deal about not allowing your kids around male teachers is part of what made your daughter fearful to be left with the male teacher?

 

Personally, I'm thrilled when either of my kids has a male teacher for anything, because I believe it is healthy for them to see both genders taking all kinds of roles. So, I don't relate to your concerns especially well, and I apologize for that.

 

It is clear you are upset. And it is clear that your request -- no matter the reason you made it -- is not consistently honored by your church. All I can say is that, if something this important to me were not supported, I might be looking for a different church.

 

I'm sorry you are having a tough time with this.

[bettyandbob]

There should probably 2 teachers in every class regardless of sex. In this day and age I would not want to be alone with a group of children. I wouldn't want to be accused of doing something with no other adult witness around.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is if no teachers are assisting with diapers. 2 teachers in a class and parents do their own diapers sounds like appropriate safeguards are in place.

 

It sounds like you need to volunteer to manage the program just so you can learn what a logistical nightmare it is to run a program based on volunteers. It also sounds like you are making inappropriate assumptions about the volunteers. If you believe your assumptions are appropriate then you should never have your dc involved in the program.

[FaithManor]

I think it would be best if you kept your dd with you. It is very hard for churches to find enough qualified volunteers and many men are very good with children in a wholesome way. Many children benefit from interaction with good hearted men, so I don't blame the church for allowing men to volunteer. They cannot always accomodate your request because it is already very hectic when the children's program is active and there are a lot of people and activities to coordinate. It's a volunteer army and something is sometimes going to fall through the cracks. So, if you feel that strongly about your dd not having a male teacher, then I really think that you should take the responsibility for her care upon yourself or make sure your husband, mother, etc. can keep her when you are teaching.

 

Any program, regardless of gender, should have two adults in each classroom. Even older children should have there comings and goings to and from the bathrooms monitored and if one is in the hallway, that means the class is unsupervised if there is not another volunteer, or the other option is that a child is wandering around the church unsupervised during class time. Gender doesn't really have as much to do with it as logistics. So, if there are multiple classrooms and multiple nurseries, the program coordinator has a lot of work to try and keep it all spinning.

 

Faith

[clarkacademy]

That was one of my thoughts, too.

 

I do not want to in any way "bash" the OP, but I have to wonder if making such a big deal about not allowing your kids around male teachers is part of what made your daughter fearful to be left with the male teacher?

 

Personally, I'm thrilled when either of my kids has a male teacher for anything, because I believe it is healthy for them to see both genders taking all kinds of roles. So, I don't relate to your concerns especially well, and I apologize for that.

 

It is clear you are upset. And it is clear that your request -- no matter the reason you made it -- is not consistently honored by your church. All I can say is that, if something this important to me were not supported, I might be looking for a different church.

 

I'm sorry you are having a tough time with this.

 

So they have to worry about allergies, special needs, having a teacher in general and upteen other things like funding for the class, behaviors etc etc....They now have to worry about what gender the willing volunteer can be?? I never knew that people should be able to pick their teachers. I would cancel the classes period if I had all this to deal with. It would not be worth the hassle and aggravation.

 

You cannot please evryone and a class or people or whatever should not be made to deal with the whims of others.

[Amira]

I think you're asking quite a bit of the Primary President to always make sure that your children have female teachers. I don't think it's wrong for you to want that, but if you feel strongly about it, I think you need to be the go-to substitute for your children's classes (even if that means getting released from your current calling).

 

There are a number of different interests in conflict here, and when that happens to me, it's my job to make sure my or my children's needs are met.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Amira

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I would not leave my dc in a classroom with ALL male teachers or even in a classroom with one female teacher at the infant-pre-school age ever. Both are unacceptable, period.

 

As for the email letter you got. It could feel off because you know this lady has been gossiping behind your back and only wrote the letter because she was reprimanded for how she was running the nurseries. The words are without true feeling. If she was truly sorry she would have contacted you in person. I am sorry you have to deal with this. We have left churches because the children's ministry was not being conducted properly.

[Unicorn.]

:grouphug: Is there any way you can give up your music duties and become your dd's teacher for a while? If not, I would continue to keep her w/ me, or suggest that the two classes be combined when her teacher doesn't show.

[kristi26]

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry you are so upset.

 

I don't have the same perspective on male teachers, so it is a little hard for me to relate. It seems you start with the presumption that there is great potential for abuse and are ardently trying to prevent that by requesting only females. Am I reading that correctly? I don't start with that presumption, but I do not judge you for having it. It is what it is, and if it is your church's policy to have those particular "safeguards", then it should be enforced.

 

I do wonder, however, why you hold that belief, if you do (you certainly don't have to answer, as it is a personal question and I am aware of that!).

 

I would just carry on and make it clear that you want women only as teachers, and let this go. I would also caution you to be careful what you assume people are saying behind your back; I try hard not to think others are gossiping about me or giving "dirty" looks, without knowing for a fact what they are thinking. Often sympathy or one's discomfort with other's discomfort looks like judgement.

 

Again, I'm sorry you had a rough time.

 

I agree with the above.

 

I want to add that my DH has his own "class" of kindergartners in our church and most of the parents actually beg him to move up with their kidlets to first grade (which he never does because he feels called to serve with the kindergartners). You could be missing out on something awesome.

 

I also want to add that 1. our church does background checks on everyone who serves (male and female) and 2. it is strictly enforced that no one, male or female, be alone with any child for any period of time ever. There are always 2 at a minimum. Always. It is done across the board from the tiny babies where I serve all the way up to the high schoolers.

[LisaKinVA]

I agree with the 2-deep leadership rule. We have that in scouts, too. It's fort the protection of everyone.

 

If I felt as strongly about you WRT not having a class with only male leadership, I would feel responsible to be the other adult in the room. It's not ideal, but it would solve the problem. Similarly, if the Primary President were unable (or forgot) about my request, and my child had two male leaders, I would sit in on the class as well.

 

Working with volunteers can be difficult. Difficult on the parents, because you don't always have consistency, but it's also difficult for the volunteers to remember everything about every child. It gets hectic. So, if it were important to me, I'd be the second person, or the female in the room. Just like if my kids had allergies, I wouldn't leave until I saw and spoke to the person in charge of snacks, and I would hand them my child's snack and briefly explain for the 100th time why...

[mom2myboys]

I was also going to suggest that you offer to be the substitute for the class. It sounds like your Primary is huge and that is quite a large load on the Primary President to take care of just the basics, let alone special requests.

 

I am not saying this to diminish your initial request. You are entitled to look out for your children however you see fit. I am just suggesting that you take on the responsibility to make sure that your preference is honored. If I want special consideration for my kids, I make it happen. I do not depend on the Primary leadership to do it. And sometimes it has meant that I needed a release from something else.

 

I can understand the concern of having only one man in charge of a class, since that is official Church policy. (IMO, no adult should be alone teaching a class of children, females included. Safer for the adults and the kids.) Perhaps there was one man sitting with them while they were in the large group practice and another man or this man's wife was going to meet them in the classroom after taking care of their other calling? I would have at least given the benefit of the doubt on that or checked into it before assuming that the rule was not being followed.

[Parrothead]

I say this as nicely as possible. If you don't want certain people caring for your children then you should not leave them anywhere. Your making those other men look like they can't be trusted and people are having to worry about finding a sub at last minute that will suit your needs.

 

I don't know why you have this issue but it is your issue, not the churchs issue. Your also teaching your children that in general a man cannot be trusted which I find sad especially in church. If you are that distrustful then maybe seek counseling?

 

Not too add fuel to the fire but I have met quite a few women even in a church setting that I wouldn't want to care for my children. If this is a sexual nature surrounding your kids with only women is not going to be a safety net for you either. There are many sexual abusers who are women.

:iagree:especially the bolded. Just because one is a man does not mean one is a pervert.

 

More than likely you've insulted someone's friend, husband, son, brother, father, nephew, cousin.

[In The Great White North]

This email leaves me feeling less than reassured, but I can’t quite articulate what is wrong with it.

 

This is what's wrong with it:

 

I was told it would be honored.

 

And it wasn't, so why should you trust them now?

 

The other class (which includes the Primary President’s daughter) has had two female teachers all year.

 

The Primary Pres. had an easy solution, which she took for her daughter but not yours.

 

With everything that was going on last week with the Primary program practice, I didn’t put all the pieces together and realize [dd] had a male for a teacher.

 

Really? After it has been an issue for years? I'm not surprised it doesn't reassure you.

 

If the person supposedly in charge of Primary doesn't know who's teaching which class, that's a problem in and of itself.

 

Whether or not you should have a problem with male teachers is besides the point. You have to be able to trust them with your children, and it's obvious that you can't.

 

Keep them with you. Drop the music ministry and tell the Bishop you have to care for your children instead.

[mom2myboys]

Oh, and as far as the gossiping goes, what goes around comes around. I know that is little comfort at the time. I have had others talk about me as well. But I do know that I do not want other people's indiscretions weighing on my spirit. They will have consequences for their actions. Heavenly Father will teach each of us in his own time and they will learn in His time.

 

Also, it is possible that it wasn't gossip, but you were sensitive b/c of your deep feelings on the situation. Or, the Primary President could have been understandably upset and feeling that no matter how hard she works that it is not good enough. It is honestly hard enough to find anyone to take a class, let alone trying to honor special requests for volunteers. Should she have handled it with more grace? Yes. But the weeks leading up to the Primary presentation are the most stressful of the year for the presidency and this may have been the last straw for her. Or she could have been venting about something else entirely. Maybe being a good example of extending some grace to her would help you feel better?

 

:grouphug: to you. A tough situation for sure.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, DD7 has not one, not two, but THREE male teachers this year-one for street jazz, one for ballet technique, and one for tumbling. For dance, it's just the instructor and class in the classroom (when she was very little there was usually a teen assistant, but now, her classes are pretty small), for tumbling they're in part of a gym with multiple classes happening at once. In all three settings, parents have a way to watch-either via a monitor or via a two-way mirror, and I've been very, very impressed by the skill, professionalism, and understanding these young men show, and by how well DD responds to them. I know there WERE parents who chose to pull their children to a different class or program entirely when they discovered that the teacher was male, and I believe they made a mistake.

[Parrothead]

I would not leave my dc in a classroom with ALL male teachers or even in a classroom with one female teacher at the infant-pre-school age ever. Both are unacceptable, period.

 

Why?

[Plink]

:grouphug: I am so sorry that you have to deal with this. :grouphug:

 

If this is an important issue to you, then it is important, it doesn't matter if anyone else agrees.

 

You are upset by her e-mail because it makes it sound as she was unaware of the situation, which you don't believe because of the gossip that thas been going around the church over this issue. Gossip is cruel. Gossip causes little issues to become enormous issues. Gossip is not something we should have to tolerate in church (although in reality, it is always going to be there).

 

I would ask bluntly if your request is something they can honor. If they say yes, expect it to be addressed. If they say no, you have a choice to make.

[Danestress]

In which we mostly all know and trust each other, there is a rule that two adults must always be present. That protects kids and adults.

 

I think your church should have and enforce that rule. I also think they should decline to try to match each parents preference when it is based on just race or gender or other bias. If you had a negative experience with a specific persons that would seem relevant. But just not trusting men seems likes personal problem that you need to work on with out demanding everyone else change their plans.

[dangermom]

Being a member of a church (any church!) means that we get to practice forgiveness and patience a lot. This is a wonderful opportunity for both you and the PP to do so. :001_smile:

 

Yes, you need to be willing to be the sub if you feel that strongly about it. That would probably go a long way.

 

It sounds like you are feeling very hurt and offended by the PP's actions. I think you are assuming a lot about 'nasty looks' and etc., but the scriptural way to deal with this problem is to go to her privately and try to talk it out. Let her know your feelings, ask for her understanding and that you realize that you are asking something unusual (and honestly, kind of insulting), and that you want to make it easier for her. And if that doesn't work, perhaps a meeting with her and the bishop, though I think that should be a last resort since bishops are so burdened.

[dangermom]

 

 

The Primary Pres. had an easy solution, which she took for her daughter but not yours.

 

 

Just a note--that's not necessarily true. A Primary President requests teachers, but the request can be denied and the process of getting teachers can be slow and is not entirely under her control.

[SailorMom]

BSA has a two adult leader rule, "Two deep leadership". Two trained leaders (who cannot be husband and wife) have to be around kids at any time, basically.

I don't understand the mistrust for men in the OP's original post, but I do think that the teachers at the church might want to consider two-deep simply to protect THEMSELVES from any allegations. Part of the reason BSA started this policy was to protect leaders - not just the boys.

[Tasia]

We're always so thrilled when our children have male teachers, that I'm surprised when someone has a problem with it. In this situation (where I'm assuming you have a real reason for not wanting your daughter in a class with a male teacher), I'd be much more worried about offending the male teachers than any gossip that is happening. The easiest solution would be for you (or your husband? I'm assuming you'd be okay with that) to teach her class until another permanent female teacher can be found.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it would be best if you kept your dd with you. It is very hard for churches to find enough qualified volunteers and many men are very good with children in a wholesome way.

<snip>

 

I think this might be a solution. Even our American Heritage Girls group has had male leaders and volunteers. The groups are divided by age. It would be difficult and developmentally inappropriate to be constantly regrouping kids to meet one family's preference. It is hard enough to get volunteers as it is. But, I do understand that some people, unfortunately, have really good reasons for not wanting male leaders.

 

Any program, regardless of gender, should have two adults in each classroom. Even older children should have there comings and goings to and from the bathrooms monitored and if one is in the hallway, that means the class is unsupervised if there is not another volunteer, or the other option is that a child is wandering around the church unsupervised during class time. Gender doesn't really have as much to do with it as logistics. So, if there are multiple classrooms and multiple nurseries, the program coordinator has a lot of work to try and keep it all spinning.

 

I totally agree with this. This means that we typically have a minimum of three leaders in a room so that one can walk kids to the bathroom (leader does not enter the bathroom), etc. Many churches require two-deep leadership and does not allow those leaders to be married (because they don't have to testify against one another).

 

You can watch the BSA Youth Protection video here:

http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx

 

If your church doesn't have good policies in place, then this might be a good starting point.

 

it is clear that your request -- no matter the reason you made it -- is not consistently honored by your church. All I can say is that, if something this important to me were not supported, I might be looking for a different church.

 

I also agree with this. If the church is resistant to change, can't provide two-deep leadership, doesn't consistently honor your requests, then maybe it's time for a change. Changing churches is one option. The below is a second option:

 

I think you need to be the go-to substitute for your children's classes (even if that means getting released from your current calling).

 

You stepping down from music and joining the children's ministry might be a good option for the time being. You could always go back to music once the kids are older.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[chepyl]

As ling as there are aleays two teachers in yhe room, I dont undrrstand the problem with a male teacher. My DS has male teachers at church who are great. If it is that big of an issue, don't send them to class. It is an unfair burden to place on those in charge of funding volunteers. It is difficult to get enough volunteers many times, let alone match kids with special teacher requests.

[QueenCat]

Honestly, if I were in charge, I would not have promised to have only female teachers leading a group. Two deep leadership, absolutely. Our church requires two in a room. One might be left alone with a group for a few minutes if the other is making a bathroom run, but then the door is left open. I would be personally insulted if someone said my husband wasn't suitable just because he is a man.

[marbel]

In which we mostly all know and trust each other, there is a rule that two adults must always be present. That protects kids and adults.

 

I think your church should have and enforce that rule. I also think they should decline to try to match each parents preference when it is based on just race or gender or other bias. If you had a negative experience with a specific persons that would seem relevant. But just not trusting men seems likes personal problem that you need to work on with out demanding everyone else change their plans.

 

:iagree: Absolutely. It sounds like your (OP) church is pretty big. It must be a nightmare trying to match up teacher preferences and such.

 

We have some wonderful men teaching Sunday School, helping in the nursery, etc. It is great for the kids, great for the men and for the women who typically carry most of the burden in this area.

 

It's none of my business why having a male teacher upsets you so much, but I would think about the message you are sending to your kids and to your brothers and sisters in the church with your insistence on this.

 

I do see why you feel the church let you down. They said they would do something and they did not. They were wrong to make a promise they were unable to keep.

[Jenny in Florida]

So they have to worry about allergies, special needs, having a teacher in general and upteen other things like funding for the class, behaviors etc etc....They now have to worry about what gender the willing volunteer can be?? I never knew that people should be able to pick their teachers. I would cancel the classes period if I had all this to deal with. It would not be worth the hassle and aggravation.

 

You cannot please evryone and a class or people or whatever should not be made to deal with the whims of others.

 

First, please notice that I generally agreed with others that the OP may be demanding something that is unusual. I'm doing her the courtesy of assuming she has her own personal, private reasons for feelng so strongly about it.

 

Also, notice that I did not say the church should have to do what she asked. I said, instead, that if this is so supremely important to her and her church is not respecting it, she might want to find another church.

 

No matter what I think of the OP's concerns, I don't think it's fair to call her feelings about this a "whim." Clearly, this is a big deal to her for some reason.

 

Honestly, I think it's a little . . . odd . . . to be so hung up on teacher gender. But it's not my place to lecture her about it.

[MrsJewelsRae]

I am stunned that in this day and age they would have an all male nursery!? I don't think you are being ridiculous, I'm honestly just completely flabbergasted that that many people thought it was ok. I've never even heard of it. Look, I am not saying that no man can be trusted, but the reality is, that 99% of sex offenders are male. Having been abused myself we have a strict policy in our house that our children are not left alone with men, other than dh (obviously) and grandpas (in whom we have complete trust). It is not targeted against certain individuals, it's just easy to make it a rule for everyone. I think at such young ages when they are in diapers and still needing potty help, it is even more important to me. I also think it's wise for men to protect themselves against any potential false accusations. When my dh picks up kids for Sunday school he brings another person with him. I'm really sorry this is happening, that is really unfair that in trying to do what's best for your kids you are getting flack and judgement. I would either pull them out or volunteer to take their class, the primary president obviously does not respect your wishes and can't be trusted to follow them. It was very rude of them to put you in an awkward situation in front of the church, as well as that man, to have him try to take your dd. My dd would have flipped at that age if an unfamiliar man tried to pick her up, and not because we'd poisoned her against men, she'd spent lots if time with wonderful men we know and love, just not alone. I hope you get this figured out. I honestly think most churches I know of would look at you like you had 3 heads if you asked if they had an all male nursery. It would be ok with me if it were a husband and wife or male/female team so long as the man is never alone with them, but otherwise no way.

[Ellie]

Keep them with you. Drop the music ministry and tell the Bishop you have to care for your children instead.

:iagree:

[MinivanMom]

..

Edited September 17, 2012 by MinivanMom

[Alice]

I think there are multiple issues:

1) You feel very strongly about this issue, obviously. It sounds like others don’t agree in your church (it isn’t a church wide policy) but that they have made a promise to you to have only female teachers. Either they need to keep that promise or they need to say they can’t make that promise. I’m the director of CE at our church and if someone made that request, I’d have to say no. We have a small church and a policy of always having at least two adults in any class, but they can be two men. There would be no way I could guarantee no men in a classroom, even the nursery. But I’d be upfront about that with someone requesting it. It sounds to me like the person promised but either doesn’t really understand how important it is, is sort of passive-aggressive about it or just is overwhelmed and letting things get chaotic.

 

2) I think if this issue is as important to you as it seems than you might want to do as others have suggested and find a way to keep your kids with you or to be the teacher or sub in your child’s class.

 

3) I didn’t think the email was rude. Email is hard to tell the tone and I try not to read too much into it. It sounds to me like the Primary Director person doesn’t really understand why this issue is so important to you and so is apologizing but maybe doesn’t see it as being as huge as you do. If people were really being rude to you and snarky that’s unacceptable but I know sometimes when I’m sensitive about something I can overreact to comments others are making. If you aren’t able to share with others why this is such an important issue then you might need to accept that they won’t understand. I’m not saying you have to share just that if you don’t it’s hard for them to really understand why what is a normal procedure for other kids in your church is not ok for yours.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think I gave the misimpression that we have a shortage of female teachers or of subs. When I said that they have to scramble for a sub, I just meant that dd's teacher often fails to show up without warning. The leadership then has to go find a sub themselves and the sub has not had time to prepare. There is no shortage of subs available. Dd's class is the only class having this problem. Her class is the only one that is regularly sitting alone without a teacher. Every other class is staffed and ready to go on Sunday mornings. I just feel really frustrated that this is happening with the littlest class. Yes, the Primary President's daughter is in the other 3-year-old class and that class always has two female teachers. It makes the problem with dd's class more glaring.

 

I should add that one of the extra problems I'm dealing with is that dd is very clingy. She is the only child I've ever had that has struggled with this. It is complicated by the fact that she has some speech delays that make it pretty much impossible for people outside our family to understand her when she speaks. This and the string of substitute teachers have increased her separation anxiety. She refused to go with the male teacher, because she is hesitant with all strangers (not just men :confused:). She was willing to go to the female sub last week, because it is a woman dd knows and has previously bonded with. I have seriously considered asking to be dd's teacher and I would be completely willing to do that. In the past I have always been the go-to sub for my kids' classes. My concern is that it isn't going to help her in learning to separate from me. I want her to be able to bond with other teachers and I would really like her to build confidence in talking to (and being understood by) people outside our family. It takes time to be able to understand her speech, though, so she is having a really hard time with the string of subs.

 

I think you just described an entirely different set of problems than what you described in your OP. Again, in my opinion, the place to start is with insisting upon two-deep leadership. If there is a teacher consistently not showing up, then I can almost guarantee that they are already working on finding a replacement for her.

[LMA]

Since the circumstances of the subs is beyond your control and your dd has trouble adjusting, then look for another church or keep her with you. I don't see anything positive coming from this if you have one set of expectations and the church has another set of expectations. It just causes frustration for both sides and your dd won't have a positive classroom experience. Let the church deal with their staffing issues but those issues are really out of your control.

[In the Rain]

Statistically, a group of three unrelated men chosen to volunteer in the same room are probably less of a risk to children than a husband and wife team.

 

In your case, it seems like your church is so large, and organized in such a way that you will never really be confident in their ability to keep male teachers out of the room. When you remove your child from a man's arms, in the way you describe, it casts doubts on his character or ability.

 

The response your church gave you implies that there will probably be mistakes in the future and they will remove your child from the situation as soon as you point it out to them. That means there will continue to be incidents like all of the ones you described in your post. The response would be disheartening to me, because it shows that the incidents, hard feelings and gossiping would continue. Your safest bet is probably to either keep your children with you or become their teacher instead of being involved with music.

 

FWIW, I think men being involved with children is a wonderful thing for both men and the children.

 

:grouphug: as you sort through this. Church issues are no fun, especially when they involve our kids.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Julianna

[pfamilygal]

I would do some serious praying about why you are uncomfortable with having multiple male teachers. Are you afraid your child will be molested? With more than one teacher in the room? That's highly unlikely. Why do you distrust men so much?

 

Jesus was a dude. Would you have allowed Him to teach your kids or would He be disqualified?

 

 

Our church has a two deep policy as well. No matter what your gender is, there should always be two adults with the kids. And if they have to be walked to the bathroom, you must take a couple of kids and someone must cover for you in the classroom. For their safety and yours.

[katilac]

I am stunned that in this day and age they would have an all male nursery!? I don't think you are being ridiculous, I'm honestly just completely flabbergasted that that many people thought it was ok. I've never even heard of it. Look, I am not saying that no man can be trusted, but the reality is, that 99% of sex offenders are male. <snip>

 

Not true, at all.

 

There are a lot of links to specific studies here and this link talks about the rise in charging female offenders.

 

Sex crimes of all types are vastly underreported; sex crimes that are either committed by women, committed against males, or both are even more so. Although this is slowly changing, it is still overwhelmingly true.

 

The strongly held belief that males are responsible for 99% of sex crimes is very, very helpful to female offenders.

[In the Rain]

nm

[mirth]

MVM, I think your church is very weird for 1) tolerating so much gossip and snarky stage whispers (Can you give an example of one of the snarky things said?) and 2) deciding that an all male nursery is a fun idea.

[Irene Lynn]

I have been surprised with the answers on this thread. I did not see anywhere that the original poster said that men couldn't be trusted or that she feared them. There are other potential reasons for desiring female teachers in those early years. My own dd had a problem with men, when she was little. I have not doubt in my mind that it was her own issue and not caused by any "bad" man. LOL She was intimidated by her own father's booming laugh and big masculine ways. She does tend toward Asperger's, but I didn't know that when she was little. Men as a whole did not intuitively understand her and sometimes they would swing her too high or do something too suddenly for her. They didn't do anything unusual and most kids would have been perfectly fine, but our dd wasn't. (Our son wanted more movement than many people would tend to do to him. :D Each child's needs are different.) Anyway, she did not feel safe with a man, when she was little. She outgrew it and I certainly didn't try to encourage the fear, but yet I needed to figure out what to do in the meantime. If she had a class with 2 males, I would have been very hesitant to place her in that classroom. If the class had a male and female, then it would probably be alright, depending on the female. I would also think that any classroom for this age of a child should have 2 adults, period. I have worked in 3-5 age range for a number of years and before that worked with the 2s for a little bit. One adult may need to leave the room to get a parent or a supply item or when they are older, walk them to the bathroom. Without 2 people in the classroom, it becomes very awkward to get everything done and make sure that the kids are not left alone. One day I had to run out to find a bandaid! (Now we have them in the room, but a while back I found they had been moved out of the room again, so I got them put back.) You just never know what will come up with the young ones.

 

Just because a person does not want a male teacher for their particular child does not automatically mean there is a male phobia going on. Just because a parent is frustrated by seeing only 1 teacher for very young children does not equal fear of molestation or abuse. There are other reasons possible.

[In the Rain]

Wow. This is one of the ugliest things I have ever read. ... This does give me some insight into what others may be thinking or saying about me. Not really the the perspective I was seeking, but it definitely gives me something to think about. :001_smile:

 

Many people, especially women, are probably assuming you have been abused. IMHO, The men who you haven't wanted to teach your children probably aren't thinking about you at all. They are probably wondering what they have done to make someone suspicious of their trustworthiness. :001_huh:

[marbel]

... My own dd had a problem with men, when she was little. I have not doubt in my mind that it was her own issue and not caused by any "bad" man. LOL She was intimidated by her own father's booming laugh and big masculine ways. She does tend toward Asperger's, but I didn't know that when she was little. Men as a whole did not intuitively understand her and sometimes they would swing her too high or do something too suddenly for her...

 

I get you on this - my daughter did not like men for a long time - but... I am a female and I don't intuitively understand all kids. When I am in the nursery I just do the best I can based on my knowledge of kids. Of course most of my knowledge is based on my own kids. So, I might easily do something that someone else's kid does not like, or that makes them afraid. Isn't that a risk eery parent takes when the child goes to the nursery? Obviously we don't expect our kids to be hurt, but not everyone will know how to play "the right way" for each child.

 

It was only by having more contact with men that got my daughter over her fear. I can't see how having less contact would have helped her?

[Irene Lynn]

I get you on this - my daughter did not like men for a long time - but... I am a female and I don't intuitively understand all kids. When I am in the nursery I just do the best I can based on my knowledge of kids. Of course most of my knowledge is based on my own kids. So, I might easily do something that someone else's kid does not like, or that makes them afraid. Isn't that a risk eery parent takes when the child goes to the nursery? Obviously we don't expect our kids to be hurt, but not everyone will know how to play "the right way" for each child.

 

It was only by having more contact with men that got my daughter over her fear. I can't see how having less contact would have helped her?

 

I agree. That is why I also said if there was a male and a female it would PROBABLY be alright. There were some females that she felt very uncomfortable with as well. Perhaps it was the males that we knew. That is most likely the case, since I know there are very gentle males, who would speak quietly who would have been alright with her pretty quickly. Keep in mind that in my post I am talking about people that I knew. I have not really met anyone who is quite like our dd, but she was the one I was blessed to have. I am SO not the type of person who is overly protective, but then I got a dd who had trouble dealing with all sorts of things. Our son is far different. I know he can be pushed and prodded in all sorts of ways. Our dd shut down if she were placed in difficult situations with no recourse. Being around more men would not have helped her when she was so young. I am not talking about 5 years old here.

 

People who thought she would adjust to difficult situations by more exposure to them, never had her to raise. She has turned out fine. :) I can also say that I am having a lot of fun with a child that I can challenge, now with our son. It is a much different path.

 

The point of my post is not about how we successfully chose to raise our child to productive adulthood, but rather to say that male phobia should not be assumed just because a person does not want their young child in a class with all males as teachers. That is not the only possible reason.

[Melinda in VT]

MVM, I think your church is very weird for 1) tolerating so much gossip and snarky stage whispers (Can you give an example of one of the snarky things said?) and 2) deciding that an all male nursery is a fun idea.

 

:confused:

 

What's wrong with an all-male nursery? (These kids are 18 months to 3 years.)

 

The denomination in question used to (don't know the current rules) have a rule against having one man and one woman teach together unless they were married. So, if you are trying to staff your nursery, you either need married couples, or you need two (or more) people of the same sex.

 

Traditionally, the women get called to serve with the kids, and personally I think it is fantastic to spread that around to the men.

 

Now, I always found that rule a little ridiculous since it's hard to think of a place less encouraging of romance than a room full of toddlers who just sat through 70 minutes of church and have two hours more to go, with no nap, but there it is.

[angela in ohio]

[quote name='MinivanMom;4319061I received this email yesterday evening from the Primary President:

“Hello Sister [Minivanmom]. The Bishop let me know today that he spoke with you this week regarding [dd’s] substitute teacher last Sunday. With everything that was going on last week with the Primary program practice' date=' I didn’t put all the pieces together and realize [dd'] had a male for a teacher. I am sorry that it happened. If there is ever a mistake in the future, just let me know and I will immediately fix the problem. Thanks.”

 

Maybe I missed it in your OP, but did you let her know? If not, I could see why she might be upset with you. It's best to go straight to the person and deal with them in person, rather than going over her head. That can be hurtful.

 

I think you're asking quite a bit of the Primary President to always make sure that your children have female teachers. I don't think it's wrong for you to want that, but if you feel strongly about it, I think you need to be the go-to substitute for your children's classes (even if that means getting released from your current calling).

 

There are a number of different interests in conflict here, and when that happens to me, it's my job to make sure my or my children's needs are met.

 

But, yes, I agree that there is no way a church could accommodate everyone's requests for specific teachers for this or that child. It's ahrd enough to run child care and find helpers in general. I think they are being overly kind to even try.

 

I agree with a PP that you should quit the music and watch your dc if child care isn't a good fit for them.

 

FWIW, I agree with you about having one male teacher. I would expect two-deep care either way (men or women.)

Edited September 17, 2012 by angela in ohio

[cougarmom4]

Wow. As a counselor in a Primary right now, I can tell you our solution would be to have you and your dh teach your daughter's class.

 

I'm sorry that you are feeling so frustrated and hurt by this. I think the primary presidency probably doesn't understand how important this is to you and how upsetting it has been. I'm sorry you are feeling that they were talking about you--what an uncomfortable feeling for you! :grouphug: I'd kindly suggest that they might not have been whispering about you...but I also have btdt and know how it is to be in that situation. I'd encourage you to "choose not to be offended..." and pray for the peace that can come from letting it go.

 

The world-wide church's policy is two-deep leadership...either two males, two females, or a couple. I can guarantee that the primary presidency is frustrated with the current teachers not showing up and changes may be in the process. Finding last minute subs is always a challenge--especially two of them.

 

Personally I think requesting that your children only have female teachers is unreasonable. Stating a preference, on the other hand, would probably be better received and understood. Expecting two-deep leadership to be followed is reasonable...but if it is not happening, I would be more likely to offer to help or look for ways to improve it than to demand changes.

 

As for the man trying to take your daughter to class, I hope that you would try looking at this from his perspective. He was trying to do what he thought was helpful and needed, perhaps not being aware of your daughter's huge separation anxiety or of your concern that he was a male teacher. With most three year olds, what he was doing is not that big of a deal. If a man in my ward tried to pick up my young daughter to take her to her class, I would be grateful that he was trying to help and would not be bothered in the least.

[Joanne]

I would not leave my dc in a classroom with ALL male teachers or even in a classroom with one female teacher at the infant-pre-school age ever. Both are unacceptable, period.

 

.

 

 

 

QUOTE=MrsJewelsRae;4319248]I am stunned that in this day and age they would have an all male nursery!? I don't think you are being ridiculous, I'm honestly just completely flabbergasted that that many people thought it was ok. I've never even heard of it. .

 

:confused::001_huh:

 

I don't understand (or support) this perspective at all. I think it patronizes men, and artifically elevates women to the role of "appropriate caregiver and teacher".

 

I believe in 2 non related adults present but the exclusion of men? Why? In real, concrete, provable terms, why? I truly believe that perpective to be not just quirky and alarmist but *damaging*.