Kid broke his arm--did we all handle this properly?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Martha, what you decide to do with your child is vastly different than the legal obligations places like day cares, schools, etc have when a child is ill or injured while in their care. Now, every little temperature of 99 or scrape, bruise, etc doesn't need EMS called and I'd be surprised if an ambulance were called in those types of situations.

 

However, given the scenario as described by the OP, this was more than a "simple broken arm". [And, by the by, any obvious or suspected fracture would warrant a 911 call by schools, etc. In many states those entities are legally obligated to decision. The key here is the parents aren't on-scene to make the call.] Even if the fracture were indeed "simple" there was simply no way to know if other, more critcal injuries were sustained or if the child had an underlying medical condition which caused him to present with a couple of shock-like symptoms. Pain itself can cause paleness and eyes rolling back. And, as I mentioned before, unless one has X-ray vision there really isn't a way to tell how serious a fracture is - unless there are bone ends sticking up through the skin and then I think we'd all agree that was pretty serious.

 

:iagree: We've had broken bones here. Neither case involved anything that even came close to making me thing we'd need an ambulance. But I was the one making that call, seeing how my child was acting, seeing her face and her reaction and how she was crying. If a third party (meaning daycare provider/babysitter/other parent) is providing care for my child and the situation is as extreme as was described here, then heck yes, I want them to call professionals qualified to make an assessment in the event that I can't be immediately present. Screaming (not crying, but screaming) increasing pallor, rolling eyes--that's not a simple broken arm. And again, a fall bad enough to break an arm with an audible snap is a fall bad enough to cause other, more serious, hidden injuries.

 

In addition, if a daycare provider is fumbling around, looking muddled and confused, I'd be grateful for the other parents who stepped in, not angry.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[brehon]

Right. I didn't say otherwise either did I? The mother should have been called the minute, possibly, and likely, followed up by 911.

 

My point was that:

 

I think that center is seriously screwy for reasons that have nothing to do with how quick or not they called 911.

 

Agreed. I hope this kid's mom follows up with this.

 

And that I don't necessarily think a broken arm, even a bad one, is an automatic 911 call.

 

I don't think an isolated extremity injury, including a fracture, necessarily needs an ambulance, either, although Fentanyl can really ease the pain and you do want to be very cautious about moving the affected limb. Bone ends can lacerate veins or arteries and the internal bleeding might not be obvious until late in the game. I think - no, I know - that mechanism of injury is important. In this case it seems there was sufficient cause to think there might be additional, possibly more serious injuries. I think this is one of the main things people are responding to.

 

Yes, if it's your kid and you're there with your child, you get to decide. If it's your kid and you're not there and can't be reached it's a different ballgame.

[NittanyJen]

That center is either not accredited or is flirting with losing NAEYC accreditation. They are required to have 2 unrelated adults present with the children, and should absolutely have had the emergency information with them with the children off-site. The teacher should also have been CPR/First Aid certified. My money is on an unaccredited daycare.

 

Daycare workers can transport in our state, but common sense (and first aid training) does apply; they cannot transport a child who cannot be moved without risk of further injury. A fall from a height and the child's voluntary lack of movement afterward would definitely contraindicate moving him.

 

I disagree that the daycare worker did a terrible thing by calling her supervisor if she was in the weeds. Given that the kid was breathing, not bleeding to death, and we are only taking a message forum's word for it that he might have been shocky, it is far better to stop, breathe, and get directions from your supervisor than to just react for the sake of doing something that could make the situation worse. She had one injured kid but also seven more mobile kids on the loose-- not a good situation. For all we know, she was a substitute (if we take it as a given that the place is poorly run anyway).

 

Then a group of bystanders swooped in and started contradicting her supervisor's orders (the bystanders may have been helpful and correct; I was not there) and the poor woman suddenly had a third distraction to focus on instead of making decisions.

 

Overall, I'd just settle for being grateful that the kid turned out okay somehow.

 

It was very kind-hearted and helpful to provide a blanket and to comort the child and see that he was not moved while awaiting help.

[SKL]

I just feel 10 minutes makes no difference, and it's wrong for a group of parents to intimidate someone into doing something she feels is contrary to policy.

 

I could understand them waiting until the superviser actually saw the child's condition before calling the mom, who, upon receiving the call, would want to know the condition of course. Keep in mind that the supervisor probably did not know there were alleged signs of shock. And again, we're talking 10 minutes until she can assess the situation. 10 minutes is a lot less he'd probably wait in the ER to be seen.

 

If indeed the child was going into shock, it sounds like the worker on hand did not recognize that or did not know what to do about it. So that may be an issue, yes. I'm still not convinced that intimidating her was the right choice.

 

While I understand the rule of having two adults on hand at all times, that's kind of sad when you think of all the things kids will not be able to do because there isn't enough staff. Of course when I was 8, there was no such thing as daycare for that age group, so we ran around town with no adult supervision at all. Those who broke their arms doing so are all still here to talk about it.

 

I also don't understand why "audible snap" implies the break is a most horrible one. Sounds like a simple, clean break to me.

[Mrs Mungo]

In our scouts group? The 6-8 years old age group needs to have 1 adult per six kids, and two adults are with the kids at all times. At least one of the adults needs first-aid/CPR qualifications. If we go off-site, then we have to have all of the medical forms and permission slips. Otherwise, the families must remain there. If this was a scout? We would probably call 911, not transport someone else's injured child in a personal vehicle, the liability potential is just too big. I would never be angry at a bill because someone in charge of my child's safety made a better-safe-than-sorry judgment call, unless it was completely over the top. And, yes, my kids climb trees and ride skateboards and have had their share of stitches.

[Wendi]

But the OP is not the adult in the situation. The actual worker the child was entrusted to by their parents was in the situation. And a bunch of by standers overrode that person for a non emergency reason.

 

If I was the mother, I'd be royal POd that my child was left with someone who didn't know how to contact me or have my child's medical info at hand. Penicillin allergy? Medications they are on? That should be on hand at all times. No exceptions.

 

That would be the last day my kid went to that daycare because of that alone. The end.

 

Second strike is not standing with my kid the entire time.

 

Third strike is letting some random yahoo off the street step in. (no offense, it was nice, but should not have been necessary)

 

The broken arm is part of childhood. No big deal. Certainly not ambulance worthy. 10 minutes to dig out the papers from the bag, call the office to explain and get backup, then have mom/boss show up is fairly quick. Possibly faster than many ambulances in some places. I would have gotten there ASAP and driven her in for a quick X-ray myself. In fact, that IS exactly what I did several months ago. My sons called me and said dd tried to pole vault over the sofa and landed on her wrist. (Yeah. I know. I'm raising geniuses here. Stupid olympics and sibling rivalry giving them ideas.:tongue_smilie: ) Her brothers stood on either side of her comforting her until I arrived, assessed, and hauled her in for X-rays. (she was fine btw.). This is pretty much the norm as far as I'm aware until this thread. I've never heard of anyone calling an ambulance because a kid fell and broke their arm. Not at school, sports, or home. They just have the child be still, take deep breaths, maybe an icepack, and wait for mom and drive them in unless there is some other reason to think there are other unseen crisis injuries.

 

 

Not every broken bone is the same. From the description of what happened to this child, I'd have called 911, too. I think it was reasonable to think there *might* be other injuries or that the fracture was more than a simple break, given his other symptoms.

 

Wendi

[raceNzanesmom]

Calls should have been mom/parent, 911, supervisor. Since she didn't have mom's # (and she should have), the supervisor should have called her immediately.

 

Shock is such a real danger. No way should he have been left to lay. He should have also been covered, head placed properly, etc. ETA: I've seen shock after a break two times (once an older child, once a younger). I'd have called 911.

 

That said, we had a boy break his arm when I worked at a ps. Mom said she'd come get him. It took her 3 HOURS.

[WishboneDawn]

I am actually surprised that they didn't have the emergency contact information with them. I know as a church we bring everything with us on any outing that we go on whether it be down the street at the park or out of town. You did the right thing. As a parent, my kids safety and well being are way more important than any amount of money I may end up having to spend out of pocket.

 

 

~Christina~

 

Same wih Girl Guides. We had to carry medical information forms and emergency contact numbers wth us everywhere we went. Seems a common sense policy for daycares as wel.

[kroe1]

I would not have called an ambulance for a broken arm and pain unless I saw bone sticking out or some cut over the break. For non-life threatening injuries, it's OK to wait and let the mom or the daycare procedures make the call. It's also OK to move the child unless someone thinks there are neck or back injuries.

 

Nonetheless, it's hard to know all of a child's injuries from a fall. If the kiddos eyes were rolling back into his head, then one might be worried about head injuries, neck injuries, internal bleeding, or other life threatening injuries. In that case, an ambulance should be involved sooner rather than later.

 

I saw a kiddo get trampled on at a skating rink once. The only visible injury was a cut on her chin. But then she suddenly started complaining about pain over her spleen, she got real pale, and her eyes rolled back in her head. I then called the ambulance. By the time the ambulance arrived, the child was fine so she was briefly checked out with vital signs and then left to the care of her mother. It was comforting to know the ambulance arrived even though they did not transport the child.

 

:)

[Mimm]

My kid broke her arm this summer and she waited on a bench with an ice pack while I came to pick her up and take her to her doctor's office to handle the break there (I called the doctor on the way there to find out if I should take her to the emergency room or urgent care or what). But it was a fairly minor break. I don't think calling an ambulance is necessary in all cases. If the ambulance arrived before the supervisor did, who would go with the child to the hospital? The day care worker at the park had seven other children to deal with. Perhaps that was on her mind as well? A ten minute wait doesn't seem too extreme, though it's always hard to watch someone be in pain. I do think the mother should have been called immediately. I was called right away and they told me that my daughter had fallen while roller skating and they didn't think the arm was broken. They called again several minutes later to say that the wrist was swelling and they did think it was broken. I left immediately at that point.

[Garga]

OP here.

 

Yes, I've gone back and forth in my mind of whether or not we handled ourselves properly.

 

On one hand, it is just a broken arm. It happens to thousands of people every day. No big deal.

 

On the other hand, what if we move the arm around and it's a jagged break that cuts into muscle or through an artery? That's a big deal.

 

But it's still just a broken arm.

 

But what about the child: The screaming, the eyes rolling, the white face. Was it just from pain? I think I might have screamed and rolled my eyes a bit during labor (:tongue_smilie:). I wasn't in shock.

 

But maybe he was. We just didn't know. The word was said a few times by bystanders.

 

I think the biggest issue was that the daycare worker wasn't authorized to make her own decision and had to wait for the supervisor. That's what was bothering us the most. There seemed to be no policy in place, and each of us was picturing our own child on the ground in a daycare situation and thinking of what we'd want the daycare to do.

 

We would want them to get our kids to the hospital asap, and we wouldn't want them moving our kids' arms, in case they caused further damage if the bone was jagged and cutting into things. That would mean that we would want some sort of trained person splinting the arm before moving it, hence: ambulance.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Garga

[Dobela]

OP here.

 

Yes, I've gone back and forth in my mind of whether or not we handled ourselves properly.

 

On one hand, it is just a broken arm. It happens to thousands of people every day. No big deal.

 

On the other hand, what if we move the arm around and it's a jagged break that cuts into muscle or through an artery? That's a big deal.

 

But it's still just a broken arm.

 

But what about the child: The screaming, the eyes rolling, the white face. Was it just from pain? I think I might have screamed and rolled my eyes a bit during labor (:tongue_smilie:). I wasn't in shock.

 

But maybe he was. We just didn't know. The word was said a few times by bystanders.

 

I think the biggest issue was that the daycare worker wasn't authorized to make her own decision and had to wait for the supervisor. That's what was bothering us the most. There seemed to be no policy in place, and each of us was picturing our own child on the ground in a daycare situation and thinking of what we'd want the daycare to do.

 

We would want them to get our kids to the hospital asap, and we wouldn't want them moving our kids' arms, in case they caused further damage if the bone was jagged and cutting into things. That would mean that we would want some sort of trained person splinting the arm before moving it, hence: ambulance.

Concerning the bolded part, this is true in many day cares. My guess is that the employee was following policy. She was probably told that she should always call the supervisor first. She is probably only making minimum wage as well. Not to mention scared. I worked in one center with a supervisior that was so controlling teachers were barely alllowed to make any decision for themselves. We had to get approval for everything, even the most mundane tasks or decisions.

[bobbeym]

Kudos to the OP and friends for stepping in and helping out. I think ya'll did the right thing in making sure 911 was called.

 

It sounds to me like the day care worker panicked, and maybe the supervisor was worried about their liability without being on site to assess the situation. I hope that little boy's mom reports the day care to the state licensing board.

 

I worked in a day care in college and WAS NOT required to have CPR/first aid training even though I worked with toddlers and 2 year olds. I also wasn't allowed to take them off property, and there may have been different training requirements for other workers that dealt with the older kids that went on field trips.

 

Speaking as a parent, I would have been extremely angry if my kid was involved in a serious accident and 911 wasn't immediately called. In my experience, any fall that results in a clear break is bad enough for potential head/neck injuries as well.

 

When DS was in 7th grade at ps, he was in an altercation with some other boys and fell, hitting his head on the ground. He was taken to the nurse who immediately called 911 and then called Dad. Dad called me and thankfully I had left work early and was only a few minutes from the school when I got the call. By the time I got there, the paramedics already had DS on oxygen and under c-spine precautions and were almost ready to transport to the ER. I picked DH up from home as we lived 1 mile from school and met them at the ER. I'm very glad the ps followed protocol though, because under normal circumstances it would have taken me an hour to get from work to home, time that shouldn't have spent waiting on me when he had whiplash and a moderate concussion.

[SKL]

I hope that little boy's mom reports the day care to the state licensing board.

 

 

Reported it for what? For not having her on speed-dial from every staff member's cell phone?

 

My kids' KG teacher regularly took a busload of 4-5yos to the library/park/etc. without another adult on hand. Someone could always fall and break a bone, but the whole world can't come to a screeching halt because of that. I would rather my kids had a chance to go places with one teacher than stay chained to their desks.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

1 teacher to 8 kids is actually a low teacher to student ratio for our area. They would be allowed to have 15-20 here at that age.

 

When we took kids out, every center I worked for made me carry the emergency sheets with me so there would be no hesitation in an emergency.

 

Our kids' preschool took an emergency backpack everywhere they went, which contained all the emergency contact numbers. It's ridiculous that a daycare worker wouldn't have that info on them when they are alone and away from the building. What if there had been a fire alarm at the building and everyone was outside?

[Jenny in Florida]

When we took kids out, every center I worked for made me carry the emergency sheets with me so there would be no hesitation in an emergency.

 

I am actually surprised that they didn't have the emergency contact information with them.

 

I'm surprised, too.

 

Neither of my kids has done daycare, but I know that when my son travels anywhere off-site with his choir, the directors carry a binder with emergency contact forms and insurance information for every child. No chorister is allowed to go anywhere with either of the directors or the parent of another child (carpooling, for example) unless they have a form in the binder. And these are not little kids.

[Murphy101]

The handling sounds a bit awkward, but not horrible. I guess it's one of those things that are hard to rehearse for. Maybe it never happened to her before.

 

My son once threw up at art class. The teacher totally freaked out. She even called the wrong parent. LOL

 

??? Are people idiots or am I just calloused from 10 kids?

 

It's not that complicated.

 

Kid injured.

Yell, blow whistle or whatever to single all other children to assemble with me.

I instruct them that there is a small emergency and they meet to stay with me quietly and calmly while I handle it.

I handle it.

Moving on.

 

Kid pukes.

Tell other kids to stay out of mess and stay where they are.

Separate kid with a trash can between his knees.

Call janitor or clean mess myself.

Call parent to pick up.

Moving on

 

Frankly this is basic and common stuff when dealing with kids and someone working with them who can't handle it sounds incompetent.

[BrookValley.]

Well in her defense she was a sub. So she didn't even know my son's name. The place they held the art class was in an old church building. They had no janitor. In fact, there weren't even enough paper towels in the bathroom to clean it up. We ended up leaving it like that for whoever eventually comes in and cleans the place.

 

Actually, had it been the regular woman she knows I wait for my son in the car. She would have come out and got me. The other woman just didn't know that. So I was there the whole time not knowing my son is sitting there in his own puke. *sigh*

 

The subs reaction was a bit nutty though. I mean he puked. Not fun, but not deadly nor worth spazzing out over. I don't think she had kids.

 

I have a distinct memory involving puke from when I worked in daycare in a previous life (i.e., before I had kids). It was me, my aide, and 12 2-year olds. There was a little spazzing out. I ain't gonna lie. :tongue_smilie: However, our puke incident involved one of those chain-reaction sicknesses...you know, the kind where you can almost see the germs jumping from one kid to the other? We had one start throwing up, and over the course of an hour or so we'd had no less than half a dozen kids (and the aide!) throwing up all over the place. We were both a bit overwhelmed with both puke and uncomfortable, sick kiddos!

[wonderchica]

Re: the ratio, 1 teacher per 8 kids (even off-site) is actually very good. NC state law requires a 1 teacher per 25 kids for that age group. 18 months is 1:6, 27 months 1:10. If you expect your child to always have two adults present with them at daycare, you'd better re-examine your state laws.

[Lady Florida.]

as was further damage if they'd taken them in their own car.

 

Parents can make that decision, but a professional shouldn't transport an injured person in a car unless there's no other way to get the injured party to a medical facility.

 

I am actually surprised that they didn't have the emergency contact information with them.

 

I've never dealt with day care or other below school age children. However, when I taught in public school we never left campus with kids unless we had contact and emergency information with us. In fact, a child who showed up for the trip without that information wouldn't be allowed to go.

 

Though 1 to 8 isn't a high ratio we also never were allowed to leave the building with just one teacher. Even if there was only 1 child there were 2 teachers.

 

This is my thought. 1:8 is quite good in the building, but off site there should always be at least 2 adults.

 

OP, you and your friends did what you thought was best in the situation.

[Murphy101]

I have a distinct memory involving puke from when I worked in daycare in a previous life (i.e., before I had kids). It was me, my aide, and 12 2-year olds. There was a little spazzing out. I ain't gonna lie. :tongue_smilie: However, our puke incident involved one of those chain-reaction sicknesses...you know, the kind where you can almost see the germs jumping from one kid to the other? We had one start throwing up, and over the course of an hour or so we'd had no less than half a dozen kids (and the aide!) throwing up all over the place. We were both a bit overwhelmed with both puke and uncomfortable, sick kiddos!

 

:lol: See now, in that situation, I am calloused, but I'd laugh, but it'd be a "holy cow I gotta laugh or I'm gonna curl up and cry" kind of laugh because I have btdt and have sympathy for the situation being exceptionally brain frying.

 

But one kid? Whatever. Moving on. Just keep swimming...;)

 

Idk. Maybe I'm also calloused by home schooling because I really don't care if it is a sub or a newbie. If the place where I leave my child has not made sure those they leave them in the care of are competent in the basics of child care and emergency policy, I'm not going to be a happy camper. I might be mildly understanding for the sub/newbie who got tossed into the deep end unprepared, but the supervisoror whoever was in charge? I have no sympathy for her not making sure my kid was left in capable hands.

[swellmomma]

Reported it for what? For not having her on speed-dial from every staff member's cell phone?

 

My kids' KG teacher regularly took a busload of 4-5yos to the library/park/etc. without another adult on hand. Someone could always fall and break a bone, but the whole world can't come to a screeching halt because of that. I would rather my kids had a chance to go places with one teacher than stay chained to their desks.

 

The mom will likely not need to report it at all. Where I am the daycare MUST report serious injuries like to licensing themselves and a full investigation occurs by licensing. My bet is when licensing learns that they did not have their emergency files with them at the park and that there was only 1 staff with the kids they will get written up for noncompliance and be put under closer scrutiny.

 

Comparing what a school teacher does and what a daycare teacher does is comparing apples and oranges. Licensing for daycares is much stricter as far as ratios and outtings etc than school is. It is not about chaining to desks or the world coming to a screetching halt. It is about following proper protocol to protect the children to the best of their abilities.

 

and FTR the 2 adults at all times rule is not jsut to protect the kids, but to protect the adults too. Protect them from allegations of abuse, neglect, sexual misconduct etc. 2 adults at all times means there is always another set of eyes.

 

I have worked in daycare for 26 years, we go to the park, do filedtrips, do all sorts of fun things, but we follow licensing procedures to do so.

[Dmmetler]

One question-and maybe the OP doesn't know. Was this a "field trip" in the sense that it was a special, one-time thing, or was it a case where the center is right around the block and the older kids regularly walk to the park playground so that they can play on equipment that's not sized for preschoolers? The elementary schools in my suburb regularly go to park playgrounds for recess, and that's technically off the school grounds, but there's not a separate permission slip and all the work done for field trips done for every single day's recess (I assume there's some blanket form done at the start of the year) and I suspect that teachers wouldn't have parent contact information at their fingertips unless they'd programmed it into their phone's contacts.

[chickenpatty]

Honestly, I would have been fine with the supervisor taking him by car to the hospital. I can't be sure, but I don't think it would have crossed my mind to call 911 for a broken arm. Although, adding to my perspective is the fact that around here, it would take an ambulance 15-20 minutes to get here (if there was one available!) and another 35 minutes to get to the nearest hospital.

 

If it would have endangered him further for us to move him, then of course 911 would have been called right away.

 

It is good that you and your friends were there and able to provide at least a little comfort/reassurance to the boy.

[SKL]

Comparing what a school teacher does and what a daycare teacher does is comparing apples and oranges. Licensing for daycares is much stricter as far as ratios and outtings etc than school is. It is not about chaining to desks or the world coming to a screetching halt. It is about following proper protocol to protect the children to the best of their abilities.

 

This may depend on where you are. Here, the rules for KG on up are very different, even for the same aged kids. For example, my eldest entered KG a year early at age 4, and she still doesn't weigh 40 lbs. If she'd been placed into pre-K, I'd have to provide a booster seat for her to go on field trips. Since she was in KG, which is the next room over from pre-K and under the same management, she was not subject to that rule.

 

The boy in the OP's situation was 8 years old. I think it would be plain wrong for his summer care situation to have to follow the same rules as if he were a preschooler. The reasoning behind staff ratios, for example, are based on developmental matters such as potty training. It makes more sense for a daycamp for older kids to follow the rules appropriate to school-aged children. The fact that the caregiver's paycheck comes from an organization that also cares for toddlers should not matter.

[SKL]

Here's my puke story. Actually, it's my sister's.

 

They were on an out-of-state field trip. My sister was happily barreling through a cafeteria when, whoosh! splat! She slipped and fell in somebody's puke! She was covered in it from head to toe, and had no change of clothes. She still remembers this 30+ years later as one of the most traumatic experiences of her life, LOL. She and the sick kid (and maybe others) had to sit in that smelly puke for the whole long bus ride home. One of the teachers held the puker's head in his lap so she could sleep. Bless his soul.

 

Makes me wonder why anyone would want to be a teacher or room mother on a field trip.

 

Speaking of which, my kid puked not once, but twice at a field trip just last week. The second time was right before I arrived to pick her up. Some poor guy had been given the job of cleaning it up and he was clearly NOT happy. Not that anyone WAS happy. Hey, at least they get paid for dealing with that, and she didn't have any puke left for my car as we drove home.

[Carol in Cal.]

Well, there are the flippin rules and there is what the heck is humane.

 

It is not humane to leave a badly injured kid going into shock alone, uncared for, with no attention, under any circumstances except the most extreme possible 'we are in the wilderness, and I am going for help' scenerio.

 

If I had been there, I would have covered him, encouraged him not to move and to breathe deeply, and asked for his mom's phone numbers. I would have called the mom and 911. I would have sat and talked to him or sung to him until help arrived. And I would have followed the ambulance to the hospital to tell the ER folks what I saw. UNLESS the day care people were clearly doing those things themselves.

 

OP, I think you did great.

[SKL]

Well, there are the flippin rules and there is what the heck is humane.

 

It is not humane to leave a badly injured kid going into shock alone, uncared for, with no attention, under any circumstances except the most extreme possible 'we are in the wilderness, and I am going for help' scenerio.

 

If I had been there, I would have covered him, encouraged him not to move and to breathe deeply, and asked for his mom's phone numbers. I would have called the mom and 911. I would have sat and talked to him or sung to him until help arrived. And I would have followed the ambulance to the hospital to tell the ER folks what I saw. UNLESS the day care people were clearly doing those things themselves.

 

OP, I think you did great.

 

I didn't get the impression the bold was happening. I got the impression that a whole herd of strangers came and imposed themselves into the situation and intimidated the caregiver. Who knows, maybe, as a human being too, she would have comforted the boy after calling the superviser, if she hadn't been overrun by people who had no rights and no business to make any decisions for this child. She probably didn't have a blanket (who carries those everywhere in the summertime) but she did not leave the child alone, uncared for, and without attention.

 

Now if you were talking about most ER stays, then you'd probably be on point when you say "left alone, uncared for, and with no attention."

[Murphy101]

I didn't get the impression the bold was happening. I got the impression that a whole herd of strangers came and imposed themselves into the situation and intimidated the caregiver. Who knows, maybe, as a human being too, she would have comforted the boy after calling the superviser, if she hadn't been overrun by people who had no rights and no business to make any decisions for this child. She probably didn't have a blanket (who carries those everywhere in the summertime) but she did not leave the child alone, uncared for, and without attention.

 

Now if you were talking about most ER stays, then you'd probably be on point when you say "left alone, uncared for, and with no attention."

 

Ha. No kidding. When I took my dd to the ER for a broken arm, we waited for hours just to have an assistant order the X-ray. Never did see a dr, tho one wrote off on the PA recommended treatment plan. No pain meds, blankets or ice packs were given. Nada for several hours.

[Carol in Cal.]

I didn't get the impression the bold was happening.

 

I think that a careful reread of the OP, including the timeline, might be in order.

[Murphy101]

I think that a careful reread of the OP, including the timeline, might be in order.

 

Within 10 minutes a supervisor had arrived and an ambulance called. The child wasn't moved, which is good, and the worker was nearby. Frankly, if it isn't a head wound or major blood loss, I tend to just tell the kid to stay calm and continue doing what I think needs done.

 

Some kids would not be comforted by a bunch of strangers surrounding them. And the more you say they will be okay, the less they tend to believe it. It can actually make them more anxious.

 

Really nothing can be the best thing to do.

[ravinlunachick]

Sure, a 1:8 ratio isn't bad, particularly considering state laws, BUT...they were off-site. What if it had been the teacher who'd had the emergency? Going off without 2 adults is just a bad, bad idea for any daycare.

[Lady Florida.]

His eyes were rolling around in his head and he was pale.

 

A part of his arm was bulging.

 

the daycare worker seemed a bit flustered and was busy making the phone call, and no one was speaking to the boy and comforting him and saying things like, "You're doing great, buddy," until my friend walked over there (5 minutes after the break.)

 

 

Remember--the child is moaning, eyes are rolling and he's getting more and more pale and is almost hyperventilating from the pain.

 

I didn't get the impression the bold was happening. I got the impression that a whole herd of strangers came and imposed

themselves into the situation and intimidated the caregiver.

 

If you read the OP carefully, you will see that the strangers only intervened when they saw that the boy was alone, in pain, and possibly showing signs of shock. They didn't race over there and take over immediately.

[Joshin]

Re: the ratio, 1 teacher per 8 kids (even off-site) is actually very good. NC state law requires a 1 teacher per 25 kids for that age group. 18 months is 1:6, 27 months 1:10. If you expect your child to always have two adults present with them at daycare, you'd better re-examine your state laws.

 

Actually, that is similar to the laws in the classroom in the state I lived in, but the regulations were different off campus. We could not leave campus with any children unless there were two staff members or a staff member and parent chaperone. My understanding on this issue was they were at a public park, which would be off campus from the daycare.

[SKL]

If you read the OP carefully, you will see that the strangers only intervened when they saw that the boy was alone, in pain, and possibly showing signs of shock. They didn't race over there and take over immediately.

 

I did re-read it. The child cried for 3 minutes after the break and then calmed down and moaned. It doesn't say the child was ignored during that time, so I assume he was not ignored. 5 minutes after the break the daycare worker was on the phone calling her boss for help. At that moment when she was on the phone, she was not telling the boy "you're doing great, buddy."

 

Since when is calling for help equal to ignoring the person needing the help?

 

Of course he was in pain. He had a broken arm. That is going to hurt no matter what, until someone puts it in the correct position. Do daycares guarantee a pain-free experience? Gosh, I hope not. Sometimes life hurts.

 

As for "possible signs of shock," these did not develop instantly but over time. Presumably while all the strangers were in this child's face hollering "911" and interfering with the caregiver. I would have gone pale too.

[Sara in AZ]

Ha. No kidding. When I took my dd to the ER for a broken arm, we waited for hours just to have an assistant order the X-ray. Never did see a dr, tho one wrote off on the PA recommended treatment plan. No pain meds, blankets or ice packs were given. Nada for several hours.

 

We can trade anecdotes all day long. My poor three year old broke her arm at the beginning of the year badly enough to require surgery and pins. We were treated promptly at both urgent care and eventually ER. DD was given morphine to manage the pain and generally well taken care of. Had she not been with me at the time, I would have been grateful for a quick response and all efforts to mitigate her pain and suffering by her caregiver, even from a group of strange ladies at the park.

[bobbeym]

Originally Posted by SKL Reported it for what? For not having her on speed-dial from every staff member's cell phone?

 

My kids' KG teacher regularly took a busload of 4-5yos to the library/park/etc. without another adult on hand. Someone could always fall and break a bone, but the whole world can't come to a screeching halt because of that. I would rather my kids had a chance to go places with one teacher than stay chained to their desks.

 

 

The mom will likely not need to report it at all. Where I am the daycare MUST report serious injuries like to licensing themselves and a full investigation occurs by licensing. My bet is when licensing learns that they did not have their emergency files with them at the park and that there was only 1 staff with the kids they will get written up for noncompliance and be put under closer scrutiny.

 

Just because a day care is supposed to report injuries does not mean they all do. Yes, 99% of them probably do but there will always be the odd ones out that don't for whatever reason they make up in their heads. It certainly doesn't hurt for the child's parents to report the injury *just in case* the day care itself does not.

 

It may be an unlicensed day care operating under the radar. It may be an owner that is concerned about money and not about the kids. It may be an untrained, freaked out day care worker and a frazzled freaked out supervisor and an accidental fall. It may be that they'd had previous problems of some sort with that boy and/or his parents. It may be something entirely different that we can't and shouldn't be speculating about.

 

After 2 years of outstanding employement and rave reviews from the parents (some of whom even hired me to babysit personally), I was fired after being directly asked by CPS/State (it was someone legal) that I felt the equipment in that particular classroom was not appropriate for that age group. It had rough edges, steps the littles could fall on, and bars they could have gotten stuck between. When questioned further, I agreed that it was fine for the preschool room (that's what it had been designed for) but not for the early toddlers when some of them were still crawling.

 

I figured if they were going to fire me for telling the truth, good riddance to them. I wasn't at all surprised to find they'd eventually been closed down for safety reasons. The irony is that the 2 girls they were called in because of were absolute klutzes and could have hurt themselves wrapped in bubble wrap in a room of balloons.

 

My point is, just because someone *should* do something doesn't mean they *will* and it doesn't hurt for mom to follow up.

[TravelingChris]

I have lots of experience with broken limbs. One of my kids had ideopathic juvenile osteoporosis. I think the OP and her friends did fine. THe only difference I may have done is called 911 myself instead of trying to get the daycare worker to do so when you found out that she hadn't.

 

In all my fractures and those of my girls, (a total of over 25), none of us ever had increasing paleness and rolling of the eyes. Which makes me think that this kid either had a more serious injury than a simple greenstick fracture or had a underlying condition that made any injury much more serious (diabetes just being one of the possible conditions). In either case, with a fall from a height, a audible break sound, and the condition of the child, EMT attention sounds warranted. I also don't think that the kid coming in an ambulance and with his symptoms would be waiting for three hours in the hall with no attention unless it was in a very medically underserved community like the hospital in LA where women would routinely give birth in the hallways (I think it has been closed down now for a number of years). Once a preliminary examination was done, and if they decided there was little chance of a head injury or some hidden bleeding, then yes, he might have to wait for further help on his broken arm. But it isn't the role or responsibility of the daycare workers to figure out if he has internal bleeding, head trauma or what have you. Also the fact that the kid is just lying there even though it is a broken arm, not leg, would concern me too.

 

With regards to the ratio and the lack of emergency contact info, I think that while 1:8 is fine for that age at the facility, it isn't for a trip somewhere else. Also every daycare or group I have ever used took a notebook, a file box or some other tool with emergency info.

 

BUt am I surprised the worker didn't know what to do and what happened? No. When over 20 years ago I was looking for daycare , I found a lot of centers that were just appalling. Issues such as babies being left car seats for hours (inside the center), total chaos due to inadequate supervision, etc. MOst of the workers were very young, younger than me at the time, and probably had no kids. I ended up going with a mom who also took care of a few kids. I did that on several bases (and since it was on bases, they did have CPR/FA training, emergency procedures, etc, etc,). Later my son was in the Base Daycare, which had lower ratios than surrounding commercial places and very strict standards. But many people don't seem to check out the places. It can't be simply monetary since the bad places weren't cheaper than the better places.

[Esperella]

OP, I think you did the right thing.

 

I worked in daycare for over 6 years, and I agree that you need 2 adults no matter how many kids when offsite. Too many things could happen and you need someone to stay with the kids and someone else to go get help or whatever. 1 person to take a kid potty and another to stay with the kids. 1 person to prepare snacks/wash hands/help get drinks and another to watch the kids. They need to have 1 person who just watches the kids and isn't distracted at all.

 

My son broke his arm and needed emergency surgery with pins back in July. I'd never had a broken bone, and it was horrible to see. My question is, without an ambulance how was he getting to the hospital? I rode holding DS in my lap trying to keep his arm still. It seems it would have been safer to have an ambulance.

 

The whole time DS was in surgery, I remember thinking, "everyone says a big arm is no big deal, but this is horrible". He has to be in PT, he can't even fully extend his arm yet. It's sad and heartbreaking.

 

Oh, and DS ended up having a not serious concussion. I'd be so worried about that with any fall, especially with him acting like that.

[Delighted3]

I was once at a high school baseball game where a players leg got broke when another player slid into him. Everyone saw it and he went down and started screaming in agony. It was the most chilling sound I have ever heard. My husband was the coach, but the player was not from our team. My husband was right there at 3rd base where it happened and he immediately called 911.

 

On 2 other occasions I have had children who have broken their arm while in my care. One was a daycare child and the other was my son. For the daycare child, I called the Mom and she came and got her and took her to the ER and for my son I called his Dad who came and took him to the ER. In both of those instances I could tell the arm was broken because of the lump, but after the initial crying, the child was not severely distraught.

 

Sometimes it is just a judgement call where you know that emergency services are needed. In the case the OP described, I would hope someone would have called 911 for my child.

JMO,

Joy

[LizzyBee]

OP, I think you did the right thing!

 

When I was in 4th grade, one of my friends broke her arm on the jungle gym. She barely cried, just walked to the teacher and told her what happened. Her mom was called and took her to the hospital.

 

My dh broke both the bones in his arm so that it just dangled. He held it up and walked home from the park, walked in the house, and said, "Look, Mom," and let his arm fall. Mom passed out. Dh was fine.

 

What happened today sounds completely different. I'd be seriously ticked if my kid had those symptoms and 911 was not called.

 

On a sidenote, I used to sub at my middle dd's daycare. We were required to always have at least 2 workers with any size group of kids, inside or out. And when we went outside, the lead teacher took the clipboard with the emergency info.

Edited August 22, 2012 by LizzyBee

[swellmomma]

[/i]

 

 

 

 

Just because a day care is supposed to report injuries does not mean they all do. Yes, 99% of them probably do but there will always be the odd ones out that don't for whatever reason they make up in their heads. It certainly doesn't hurt for the child's parents to report the injury *just in case* the day care itself does not.

 

It may be an unlicensed day care operating under the radar. It may be an owner that is concerned about money and not about the kids. It may be an untrained, freaked out day care worker and a frazzled freaked out supervisor and an accidental fall. It may be that they'd had previous problems of some sort with that boy and/or his parents. It may be something entirely different that we can't and shouldn't be speculating about.

 

After 2 years of outstanding employement and rave reviews from the parents (some of whom even hired me to babysit personally), I was fired after being directly asked by CPS/State (it was someone legal) that I felt the equipment in that particular classroom was not appropriate for that age group. It had rough edges, steps the littles could fall on, and bars they could have gotten stuck between. When questioned further, I agreed that it was fine for the preschool room (that's what it had been designed for) but not for the early toddlers when some of them were still crawling.

 

I figured if they were going to fire me for telling the truth, good riddance to them. I wasn't at all surprised to find they'd eventually been closed down for safety reasons. The irony is that the 2 girls they were called in because of were absolute klutzes and could have hurt themselves wrapped in bubble wrap in a room of balloons.

 

My point is, just because someone *should* do something doesn't mean they *will* and it doesn't hurt for mom to follow up.

 

 

That is very true. I often forget that many licensed centres don't follow procedures because even as an unlicensed home daycare(legal here) I still follow all but the 2 adults. However I don't go the park or anywhere else with the little kids without at least 1 of my big kids with me. They serve as my help, if daycare girl was to get seriously hurt in my care and I called 911 I have my big kids take my other kids back to the house and stay there until I could be back home with them.

 

I have also always followed protocol in a daycare center too so it would never occur to me not to report to licensing.

 

We have had our share of broken bones here and never had more than a couple minutes wait at the hosptial for help. Only one of those times was an ambulance transfer, when ds was in an accident last summer. When his arm got broken in gramma's care she drove him, but he was taken back and put on morphine within minutes of them getting there. WHen oldest ds broke his leg at a home daycare at 22 months I was furious that she never called me, never called 911(my husband worked as an EMT, I was working at the hospital) she left him with a broken leg for 5 hours and then told us he bumped his leg when I picked him up, nope not a bump it was a broken leg. In her case I reported her to licensing myself, I figured anyone saying it was just a bump and not contacting parents would not report it herself.