Question for those who think college unnecessary

[msk]

If you think college is generally unnecessary and over-rated: are you homeschooling primarily for non-academic reasons?

 

 

There are a number of vocal people here who don’t think college degrees are worthwhile for their own kids—who wish they could get by with just a vocational school, or are only willing to support tuition at the cheapest place possible, and only if their children choose majors X or Y.

 

 

At the same time, most people here are willing to give up 13+ years of one parent’s wages to homeschool. People spend countless hours looking for the best way to teach algebra, Latin, Greek, American history, literary analysis, etc. It seems like classical homeschoolers on the whole value K-12 education so highly, I'm surprised to see so many people who feel that college for those same children will be ONLY about getting a piece of paper posting on the same board.

 

 

Are these two *different* groups of people posting? Or are there people who believe academics for a 12yo is important enough to invest in homeschooling full time, but a four-year liberal arts degree for an 18yo is a pointless luxury they’re unwilling to support? If that's you, why do you feel that way?

 

 

 

(Please don’t read this as confrontational—this isn’t a combination of views I’ve encountered in real life, so I’m hoping people don't mind sharing their reasons.)

[Catwoman]

That's a very interesting question. We fully anticipate that our ds12 will be attending both college and grad school, so I can't answer for "the other side," but I am interested in reading the replies.

 

Certainly, college isn't for everyone, and while I believe it will be the right choice for my ds, I applaud parents who know their kids well enough to know that either they are "not college material" (whether due to lack of academic ability, or realizing that their dc won't be interested in a career that would require it,) or that they won't be mature enough right after high school to go straight to college. Where we live, it seems like every kid goes to college, and believe me, they're not all Einsteins :tongue_smilie:, so many of them would probably be better served with a good vocational program instead.

 

:lurk5: :lurk5: :lurk5:

[Lolly]

Not sure if I am in the group you are referencing...

 

Overall, I think college IS just about getting that piece of paper. I think for most jobs, an internship would do a better job of preparation. But, in order to hold that job, you must have that all important piece of paper. I'm afraid I think that much/most of what is studied in college is fairly pointless as far as jobs go. I think that a better job of education could be achieved through studying subjects outside of college than in it.

 

One reason I homeschool is exactly for that same reason. I think what they are doing in ps is not worth the time and effort that it takes. I feel that we do a better and more efficient job doing it on our own. Fortunately, that important little piece of paper that results has the same result as the one the high school gives for my children.

[MeaganS]

I agree, interesting question. For us, college is the default, but I imagine we are open to something else as our children reveal their personalities. Mine are still young, but we are heavily in the "academic reasons" camp.

[Ellie]

Now, see, you've confused me.

 

Of course we homeschooled for academic reasons, but our goal wasn't college. It was to help our children learn as much at home as was possible, such that if they wanted to go to college, they'd be ready, but if not, they'd still be ready for life.

 

I guess I don't agree with your categories. :-)

[nono]

College is simply an outside verification of proficiency or an acceptable level of performance. My dh and I have MBAs. We mostly think college is a bad deal given the current costs. In other words, that verification has become a burdensome fee! If my children can manage to get into the career they want without incurring the cost of a degree, yahooooooooo!

 

We homeschool for academic reasons. Just because our children may not pursue what we perceive to be an overpriced degree in <whatever> doesn't mean that they will be raised without the skills to have easily attained that degree.

[regentrude]

College is simply an outside verification of proficiency or an acceptable level of performance. My dh and I have MBAs. We mostly think college is a bad deal given the current costs. In other words, that verification has become a burdensome fee! .

 

Nono, so would you say you did not actually LEARN anything at college you could not have learned by yourself? That would be sad and a waste of resources indeed.

 

I am coming from an entirely different perspective. I went to university to acquire a set of knowledge and skills that I would not have been able to acquire otherwise. Studying theoretical physics without the guidance of professors who are experts in their fields is reserved for a very few select geniuses; the rest of us could not do it without the university.

 

At the university where I teach, we do have the option for students to receive credit based on examination, without having to pay for the course - so the sort of "outside verification of proficiency" that you mention. In the ten years of teaching several thousand students I have encountered one single student who used this option. This leads me to conclude that there are things most students find themselves unable to learn on their own - otherwise more would save the cost of a four credit hour course and simply test out.

[earthyfamily]

We're still unsure to be honest which of our children will be attending college. We follow a VERY rigorous academic and college preparatory plan in the event that our children do choose college and to ensure that they are extremely well educated regardless of their decision. We are fairly certain that our oldest will first intern in her career field and then at a later date attend at least CC for business purposes. Our youngest has always wanted to be an architect that would likely involve CC and then University. Our middle one though we're not sure about.

[angela in ohio]

I don't know about on this board, but IRL - yes - they are two different groups around here.

 

I'm in the academic and college-prep category. My dc are interested in areas that require university resources. For example, could dd purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars of chemistry, physics, engineering, and robotics equipment and teach herself? I suppose so, but it seems more economical to just go to college. :D

 

Personally, I think whether your college degree is just a piece of paper depends on what degree it is and where it came from, and I think that colors a lot of people's responses.

Edited July 27, 2012 by angela in ohio

[tex-mex]

 

I am coming from an entirely different perspective. I went to university to acquire a set of knowledge and skills that I would not have been able to acquire otherwise.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[msk]

Now, see, you've confused me.

 

Of course we homeschooled for academic reasons, but our goal wasn't college. It was to help our children learn as much at home as was possible, such that if they wanted to go to college, they'd be ready, but if not, they'd still be ready for life.

 

I guess I don't agree with your categories. :-)

 

Sorry to be confusing. I'll try it this way.

If you homeschooled for primarily academic reasons:

Q 1. If your kids wanted to go to college, would you

a) support them as well as you possibly could without enormous debt/hardship or

b) refuse financial support beyond the absolute minimum required for a degree in something you thought economically viable?

 

Q 2. If you chose b, why is the education you gave them via homeschooling worth making major sacrifices for, but not a college education?

 

Q2 is the question I'm trying to get at, which Lolly answered. I don't know how many people actually fall into category b AND homeschooled for primarily academic reasons, so it's possible there will be very few answers.

 

I'm not trying to say college is the only reason for K-12 education to exist, or that college is valuable for everyone (I agree that it isn't). Also, I realize a huge number of us would answer "a" but are still unable to provide significant financial support for reasons we can't do much about. So again, maybe very few answers, but I think there will be some and am very curious about them.

[KS_]

Sorry to be confusing. I'll try it this way.

If you homeschooled for primarily academic reasons:

Q 1. If your kids wanted to go to college, would you

a) support them as well as you possibly could without enormous debt/hardship or

b) refuse financial support beyond the absolute minimum required for a degree in something you thought economically viable?

 

 

I agree with Ellie - I want them to be prepared for college, but don't know if that's what they will choose to do.

 

And as far as finances - I don't know. I seriously doubt we will be taking out loans for them, or if we do, not large amounts and they will be mainly responsible for paying them back. We just don't have the resources to fund it. We have very little saved up for retirement, although our only debt is the house. So I don't plan on paying for their college, but I also don't see homeschooling as "making major sacrifices." I am sacrificing a career of my own, but that money was never in the equation, so it's not something we ever had (so don't feel the loss of it). We stay on a budget and plan and homeschool fairly inexpensively. Dh and I both had to work and go to college (and we both did it in 4 years) and I fully expect if my dc go to college, they will be holding down a job, too.

[Jean in Newcastle]

OK - you said not to read it as confrontational, but your tone seems a bit that way to me. But I'll try not to react.

 

People can want their children to be educated but not believe that college is the only way to finish off that process. That doesn't mean that they don't believe that it is not a way, esp. in some fields.

 

People's financial situation changes. Esp. right now in this economy. Many people have set aside money for college only to have it eaten up by living expenses when jobs are lost sometimes for more than a year. Medical crises (and the bills that go with it) happen. To have the rug pulled out from under you financially does not mean that you don't value college or making sacrifices.

 

The money to pay for a degree in nursing might be "worth it" to a financially strapped family but one to pay for a degree in fine arts might not be. It doesn't mean that the family is made up of neanderthals. It means that when money is tight you do need to look at making a reasonable return for your investment.

 

Our plan is for our kids to go on to college. We probably will sacrifice to do so. But I don't know what the future holds and I'm not going to hold that as a standard for good academic parenting.

[Aspasia]

Great thread, and something I have often wondered myself.

 

We are definitely homeschooling for academic reasons. I used to feel like college was the best route for most people and certainly for people "like me". I have changed my opinion a lot in recent years about who "should" go to college and who would be better off saving the cash. That said, dh and I do assume that our children will go to college, if only because we both have.

 

FTR, I personally believe that college is much more than "piece of paper" or a way to get a job. My university experience taught me how to think and how to write, two critical skills in our world that a disturbing number of people do not possess. There is a lot to be said for self-education and I certainly believe it should be a lifelong pursuit for all if us. But it won't teach you how to write or a number of other skills. Self-education is limited to input--you can read and read and put information into your head forever. But thorough education also requires output from the student AND some skilled feedback on that output. That's where college comes in. Being required to do real research and write real papers and then receiving feedback on tht work--that's when we really learn something.

 

To be sure, I am not interested in paying outrageous tuition for an "education for education's sake", and that's why I lean toward state schools for undergrad education. But ultimately, I DO believe in education for education's sake, for myself and my children. Research shows that educated people tend to be better parents, better spouses, and better citizens. Who wouldn't want that for children?

 

Having said all that, I won't feel like it was all for naught if my children choose not to go to college. So I guess that means that there are a lot of other things, even academic ones, that justify the sacrifices that homeschooling requires.

 

ETA: We do intend to pay for our children to go to college at reasonably priced schools (just their undergrad--they can pay for their own grad degrees if they go to pricey schools). We personally feel that that is part of our job to provide for them. Obviously everyone's feelings on that are different, but that's how we feel. If, for some reason, we weren't able to, then we would certainly encourage them to take out loans.

Edited July 27, 2012 by infomom

[Ellie]

Sorry to be confusing. I'll try it this way.

If you homeschooled for primarily academic reasons:

Q 1. If your kids wanted to go to college, would you

a) support them as well as you possibly could without enormous debt/hardship or

b) refuse financial support beyond the absolute minimum required for a degree in something you thought economically viable?

 

Q 2. If you chose b, why is the education you gave them via homeschooling worth making major sacrifices for, but not a college education?

 

Q2 is the question I'm trying to get at, which Lolly answered. I don't know how many people actually fall into category b AND homeschooled for primarily academic reasons, so it's possible there will be very few answers.

 

I'm not trying to say college is the only reason for K-12 education to exist, or that college is valuable for everyone (I agree that it isn't). Also, I realize a huge number of us would answer "a" but are still unable to provide significant financial support for reasons we can't do much about. So again, maybe very few answers, but I think there will be some and am very curious about them.

:001_huh:

 

I guess I'd fall into the "a" category, but I guess I don't see where "b" comes from. Maybe I've led a sheltered life, or maybe I don't personally know anyone whose parents were capable of paying for college but refused to, or maybe I just don't understand the question. :001_huh:

 

And that's ok. :D

[Shellydon]

We homeschool for primarily academic reasons and don't believe college is the end goal. Both my husband and I have advanced degrees and our fields absolutely require those degrees. That said, spending $50,000 on a degree in Communication Studies and getting a job that makes $25,000 a year when you graduate is foolish. We will only pay for college if our children choose degrees that have a end point of XYZ job. (e.g., occupation therapy, RN, engineering etc) By homeschooling, we can ensure that our children have such an excellent education that repeating high school courses in college (history, sociology, Algebra, Biology etc) is totally unnecessary. They will be well-educated regardless of whether or not they continue on to college. A well chosen trade can provide a young adult with a job that makes as much money as their college educated counterparts (that choose 'fluff' degrees) without the blow of mountain of debt to pay off. Plumbers, electricians, EMT, AutoCAD tech, court reporter are all jobs that can provide a decent living without a college degree.

[Shellydon]

:001_huh:

 

I guess I'd fall into the "a" category, but I guess I don't see where "b" comes from. Maybe I've led a sheltered life, or maybe I don't personally know anyone whose parents were capable of paying for college but refused to, or maybe I just don't understand the question. :001_huh:

 

And that's ok. :D

 

 

We would refuse to pay for college for a child that wanted to get a degree in art, communication studies, psychology, Roman history etc. Their degree plan must end with a specific job. Double majoring in a fluff degree would be fine (e.g. Civil Engineering and Art).

[DianeW88]

Hmmm, well, I needed college in order to get a job in my chosen profession, so it wasn't an option for me.

 

As to my children, my oldest will also need a college degree (a couple of them) to work in his chosen profession (physical therapist), so college was the no-brainer choice for him.

 

My dd is already working in her chosen profession (ballerina), and a college degree is not required. However, she is still getting a BFA in ballet and minoring in business. She has a full-ride scholarship and the degree will help her with her ultimate goal of owning a classical ballet studio someday.

 

Not to mention, I think attending college has value in and of itself apart from just "getting a degree." I want all three of my children to have the experiences and opportunities that I know a university education can provide for them.

[PeacefulChaos]

If you think college is generally unnecessary and over-rated: are you homeschooling primarily for non-academic reasons?

 

 

There are a number of vocal people here who don’t think college degrees are worthwhile for their own kids—who wish they could get by with just a vocational school, or are only willing to support tuition at the cheapest place possible, and only if their children choose majors X or Y.

 

 

At the same time, most people here are willing to give up 13+ years of one parent’s wages to homeschool. People spend countless hours looking for the best way to teach algebra, Latin, Greek, American history, literary analysis, etc. It seems like classical homeschoolers on the whole value K-12 education so highly, I'm surprised to see so many people who feel that college for those same children will be ONLY about getting a piece of paper posting on the same board.

 

 

Are these two *different* groups of people posting? Or are there people who believe academics for a 12yo is important enough to invest in homeschooling full time, but a four-year liberal arts degree for an 18yo is a pointless luxury they’re unwilling to support? If that's you, why do you feel that way?

 

 

 

(Please don’t read this as confrontational—this isn’t a combination of views I’ve encountered in real life, so I’m hoping people don't mind sharing their reasons.)

 

Well, I don't consider myself in either of the groups you mentioned. And I haven't read any of the responses yet. But here is my personal opinion.

 

I am homeschooling, giving my kids the best education I can manage. Let's face it, there area large numbers of kids graduating high school now who do not know how to write - how to spell, grammar, etc - and I don't want that for my kids. I want them to be equipped and prepared for whatever it is that they want to do/feel led to do in their life. What they do is their choice, and I will not feel as though my time was wasted if one or more decides to do something that doesn't require college. I think that this education is fundamental no matter what. I want them to be equipped either way.

 

What I don't agree with is people making plans for their children - minimum of four years of college (with a degree in what? Something of the child's choosing or the parent's? I'm of the opinion that if the child is doing whatever just to be fulfilling something that their parents are insisting on - even into adulthood, with college, etc - then chances are they won't be doing it out of any desire or passion on their part, and may be more likely to be unfulfilled in a career in something that they didn't choose), etc. (don't get me started on how many parents seem to think they will be able to control when their child meets/marries someone - I've heard more people than I can count talk about how they expect their children not to bother until they have a full college education. They have no control over when their kid will meet the right person! Some meet when they are 14 and get married at 19 - others don't meet til they are in their 30s. But either way, the parents have no control over that - and I don't believe they should try to.)

 

I want my kids to grow up and do what is right for them. I want them to be hard workers in whatever field they choose. I have little concern over what they choose to do for a profession, and more over the type of people they are. I just find all the fuss over kids going to college to be unnecessary. And I find being well educated to be an asset to any field.

[Aspasia]

We would refuse to pay for college for a child that wanted to get a degree in art, communication studies, psychology, Roman history etc. Their degree plan must end with a specific job. Double majoring in a fluff degree would be fine (e.g. Civil Engineering and Art).

 

This makes a ton of sense to me, but how do you apply it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure didn't know what I wanted to do for a career when I was 18! I changed my major, I think, four times. So how are our kids supposed to know exactly what they want to do? Part of the college experience is exploring different things and learning about yourself. What if your kid does all that and two years into it (after he has completed his generals), he decides to major in theater? Does he have to pay you back for the first two years?

 

(I'm honestly asking this because dh has proposed a similar policy, but I just can't wrap my head around it.)

[kricau]

:iagree:I want my dd's to learn as much as I can teach them (out of books and from life) till I can't teach them anymore (ie I am not a college profesor).Then if they want to go to college they can (we have a 529 plan on both started). But if they don't want to we will not push. My dh went to a trade school to be an electrician and he (and us by association) is doing quite well. And if they decide all they want to do in life is have babies and homeschool, then we will be ok with that too. It's all I ever wanted to do :)

 

But I do understand the point of view of the "college is useless" group. My SIL went to college for the regular 4 years and then 2 more and she still isn't in the job she wanted to do :(

 

Now, see, you've confused me.

 

Of course we homeschooled for academic reasons, but our goal wasn't college. It was to help our children learn as much at home as was possible, such that if they wanted to go to college, they'd be ready, but if not, they'd still be ready for life.

 

I guess I don't agree with your categories. :-)

[kricau]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Not sure if I am in the group you are referencing...

 

Overall, I think college IS just about getting that piece of paper. I think for most jobs, an internship would do a better job of preparation. But, in order to hold that job, you must have that all important piece of paper. I'm afraid I think that much/most of what is studied in college is fairly pointless as far as jobs go. I think that a better job of education could be achieved through studying subjects outside of college than in it.

 

One reason I homeschool is exactly for that same reason. I think what they are doing in ps is not worth the time and effort that it takes. I feel that we do a better and more efficient job doing it on our own. Fortunately, that important little piece of paper that results has the same result as the one the high school gives for my children.

[kricau]

But we would not withold the means to go to college if they want to.

[medawyn]

:001_huh:

 

I guess I'd fall into the "a" category, but I guess I don't see where "b" comes from. Maybe I've led a sheltered life, or maybe I don't personally know anyone whose parents were capable of paying for college but refused to, or maybe I just don't understand the question. :001_huh:

 

 

 

My husband's parents refused to pay for college (although it was within their means to do so) unless their children - all of them - selected an engineering degree. I'm glad I wasn't their kid, because I would not have made it through!

[ChristyB in TN]

Fantastic topic! I home schooled my kids, still am home schooling the youngest, for academic reasons. I was mortified by my public school options and the local private schools were all church based. After we home schooled for a while I realized that every day I learned a new reason to homeschool! I developed my purpose as I went along in the early days. My husband and I realized that we had the opportunity to make them life long learners, scholars, and we would work hard to give them options they could take advantage of their entire lives. I feel strongly that college is ever so helpful in giving a person more options than someone who doesn't have at least a 4 year degree. I now have a son who will be junior in college and is a pre law major, my daughter will be a sophomore and is pre med, and we hope that if nothing else, they will come away from their college experience with a diploma and a path to follow...and a lot of other paths they could wander off to without a lot of trouble.

I completely understand why people don't value a degree as much. My husband didn't finish college and has been very successful anyway. He is a reader and has probably gathered more that way than he would have in a classroom. However, he insists that his life has been harder because of his lack of options (college degree) and he and I have never let our kids know they have the option of NOT going to college.

[PeacefulChaos]

This makes a ton of sense to me, but how do you apply it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure didn't know what I wanted to do for a career when I was 18! I changed my major, I think, four times. So how are our kids supposed to know exactly what they want to do? Part of the college experience is exploring different things and learning about yourself. What if your kid does all that and two years into it (after he has completed his generals), he decides to major in theater? Does he have to pay you back for the first two years?

 

(I'm honestly asking this because dh has proposed a similar policy, but I just can't wrap my head around it.)

 

I actually feel this way about college a lot.

I do think that there are some who know what they want to do at 17-18 years old. But I wasnt one of them. I know several others who aren't, either. I know several adults who have degrees hanging on their walls that they do not use. I've never asked if it was worth it because I know it can be a touchy subject and I wouldn't mean it snarky, but it could come off that way.

I think in this case it would be worthwhile to do the basic gen Ed courses - maybe at a community college - while interning or looking at professions that may be of interest. But idk for sure....

 

Oh, and in response to the financial support for college - at this time, I have no plans to pay for my kids to go to college. I can see where some find it a worthy goal, but the fact is that savings for retirement comes before going into debt for them to go to college.

Edited July 27, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[NASDAQ]

I wouldn't send my child to school just because I suspected that that child wasn't a good fit for college. My goal is to educate them to the best of their academic potential. A good primary and secondary education is of use whether or not they ultimately go to college.

 

I think colleges now are doing a lot of what could be done by secondary schools, actually.

[Shellydon]

This makes a ton of sense to me, but how do you apply it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure didn't know what I wanted to do for a career when I was 18! I changed my major, I think, four times. So how are our kids supposed to know exactly what they want to do? Part of the college experience is exploring different things and learning about yourself. What if your kid does all that and two years into it (after he has completed his generals), he decides to major in theater? Does he have to pay you back for the first two years?

 

(I'm honestly asking this because dh has proposed a similar policy, but I just can't wrap my head around it.)

 

 

The first 3 semesters are always basics, that is when you decide your degree field. There are plenty of tests that can offer you an idea of career paths. I personally opened several college classes books (do they even make those anymore) and picked my major that way. I would also look at all the lists of growing career fields.

[nono]

Nono, so would you say you did not actually LEARN anything at college you could not have learned by yourself? That would be sad and a waste of resources indeed.

 

No, there's absolutely nothing that's taught in college or grad school that is kept locked away from the general public that couldn't be learned on one's own! (Ahem, same could be said for grade school and high school ;)). Can college be an efficient exchange of that information? It used to be considered quite efficient, but at the current pricing levels, it becomes less desirable, esp. for "soft" degrees.

 

Look. Either someone is bright or they aren't. College isn't going to make someone bright. College degrees verify that brightness. Unfortunately, colleges are unable to "not verify" that brightness. I've often wondered if we as a society haven't really missed the mark on that entire piece of the puzzle.

 

So back to the outside verification. While it is interesting that you know of only 1 person who "clepped out" of something, it doesn't mean there aren't other people outside your domain studying or learning the same type of material on the job, and using that knowledge every day. They don't need that outside verification. They learn it. They use it. No degree.

 

It would be hard to argue that Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Barry Diller, David Oreck, and many others not of that caliber actually need that verification by any outside party that they are "OK to go" for a job. Or that they "should have" had that back when they started. That's the type of verification to which I was referring, and so often gets brought up in these types of discussions: You need an B.S. degree just to be interviewed...

 

If someone actually knows what they want to do in this world, they can get the knowledge they need. I've never met a college professor yet who didn't chat up folks at cocktail parties, etc. giving out tidbits of knowledge. Sometimes better stuff than they do in the classroom! :D So even that special insight is just there for the taking! Same for business owners, etc. Heck, most people just ooze information!

 

But a person like this, entertaining a non-traditional route, better have the bent to be a self-starter. It makes it all so much easier. For someone who doesn't know what they want to do, college is still a good bet. But, I'd be much more willing to pony up $$ for a business, math or science degree v. any other.

[jenangelcat]

We homeschool mainly for academic reasons, partially for social reasons. I am a knowledge junkie. I think it benefits everyone to know as much as they can about the world, even in subjects they aren't necessarily passionate about. I want my kids to have a well rounded education and the schools here are awful.

 

That said, I don't think university is for everybody. I don't think it's something people should do for "the experience" or if they don't have a set goal for a career that requires it. If my kids don't show a clear path that needs a university education (mathematician, doctor, whatever) then we'll be encouraging the skilled trades, 2 year degrees in health services and/or self-employment.

[msk]

OK - you said not to read it as confrontational, but your tone seems a bit that way to me. But I'll try not to react.

 

I know-- this gets into the same territory as whether a working mom "really needs" to work or could stay home by budgeting better or something, which I totally hate.

 

I'm trying to ask about people who feel that they *could* financially help a child who wants to get a certain degree, but refuse to do so (or support only the cheapest possible option when they could do more). I have met people IRL who have told me this directly, but none of them would ever consider teaching their kids Latin or music either. This is too complex a question for a discussion board I guess, but it's something I wonder about every time the "college isn't worth it" threads come around.

[nono]

My university experience taught me how to think and how to write, two critical skills in our world that a disturbing number of people do not possess. There is a lot to be said for self-education and I certainly believe it should be a lifelong pursuit for all if us. But it won't teach you how to write or a number of other skills.

 

 

Back in my day, those were requirements to get into college.

[PeacefulChaos]

Back in my day, those were requirements to get into college.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I think it's pathetic that colleges have turned into high school part 2, where they (maybe) learn the things they should know already. :001_huh:

[FaithManor]

Back in my day, those were requirements to get into college.

 

I agree! My LAC took very, very few people who were not capable of this and they were admitted on academic probation. Remedial classes did not exist. The closest thing was "college writing" and even that class was STOUT! I got my money's worth out of every single course including the ones that I hated. :001_smile:

 

Faith

[InterestingCase]

No, there's absolutely nothing that's taught in college or grad school that is kept locked away from the general public that couldn't be learned on one's own! (Ahem, same could be said for grade school and high school ;)). Can college be an efficient exchange of that information? It used to be considered quite efficient, but at the current pricing levels, it becomes less desirable, esp. for "soft" degrees.

 

Look. Either someone is bright or they aren't. College isn't going to make someone bright. College degrees verify that brightness. Unfortunately, colleges are unable to "not verify" that brightness. I've often wondered if we as a society haven't really missed the mark on that entire piece of the puzzle.

 

So back to the outside verification. While it is interesting that you know of only 1 person who "clepped out" of something, it doesn't mean there aren't other people outside your domain studying or learning the same type of material on the job, and using that knowledge every day. They don't need that outside verification. They learn it. They use it. No degree.

 

It would be hard to argue that Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Barry Diller, David Oreck, and many others not of that caliber actually need that verification by any outside party that they are "OK to go" for a job. Or that they "should have" had that back when they started. That's the type of verification to which I was referring, and so often gets brought up in these types of discussions: You need an B.S. degree just to be interviewed...

 

If someone actually knows what they want to do in this world, they can get the knowledge they need. I've never met a college professor yet who didn't chat up folks at cocktail parties, etc. giving out tidbits of knowledge. Sometimes better stuff than they do in the classroom! :D So even that special insight is just there for the taking! Same for business owners, etc. Heck, most people just ooze information!

 

But a person like this, entertaining a non-traditional route, better have the bent to be a self-starter. It makes it all so much easier. For someone who doesn't know what they want to do, college is still a good bet. But, I'd be much more willing to pony up $$ for a business, math or science degree v. any other.

 

I think that I overquoted, but here is my point. I think it must depend on your degree program or the college you attend. Having professors and other students challenge me pushed me intellectually in a way that supersedes reading information (and since the age of seven, I have been a voracious reader of anything upon which I could get my hands). My professors in graduate school were at the top of their field, and the rigor and inquiry that was modeled was one of the most pivotal experiences of my life.

 

To put this in perspective, I started working at the age of fourteen and worked all through my college career. During grad school, I also cared for my kids, worked, and kept up the house.

 

Even with all these other experiences, my university studies gave me something significant that could not be found elsewhere, despite my own passion for learning and research (and working in a public library with the max number of items out most of the time).

[msk]

Back in my day, those were requirements to get into college.

 

I was pretty good at thinking and writing logically before college, but I got MUCH better at it with the help of some professors who really cared (both in my required first-year "background" English classes and later on in my actual major), and by doing a lot of work on paper rewrite after paper rewrite. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be as common an experience as I would have expected.

[regentrude]

No, there's absolutely nothing that's taught in college or grad school that is kept locked away from the general public that couldn't be learned on one's own!

 

If you can afford to set up a research laboratory in your basement, buy the equipment, train yourself to use it... sure. Instead going to a university where you will be sharing those multi-million dollar resources and be trained to use them seems an immensely sensible way to me.

 

And if you can afford to set up your own teaching hospital, including live human subjects to practice on, maybe you can teach yourself to be a surgeon... but again, I somehow do not think this a viable option. And I doubt it would inspire patient confidence.

 

Look. Either someone is bright or they aren't. College isn't going to make someone bright.

Sure, college is not increasing your intelligence. But it can vastly increase your knowledge and can teach you things you night be unable to learn without the guidance of a teacher. That may be how to do brain surgery, or how to do field-theory calculations. I congratulate you on your superior intellect that makes autodidactic learning so easy. But maybe, just maybe you have just not challenged yourself and the things you attempted to learn were not hard enough.

 

it doesn't mean there aren't other people outside your domain studying or learning the same type of material on the job, and using that knowledge every day. They don't need that outside verification. They learn it. They use it. No degree.

There are certainly fields where learning on the job is a viable option - but there are others where it is not.

The papers submitted to our department by autodidactic physicists working on their own are, without exception, complete nonsense. Einstein was a really really rare case. If the autodidacts exist who do valuable science, they must choose not to share with the community, as they do not publish papers or present at conferences.

[Trilliums]

I know-- this gets into the same territory as whether a working mom "really needs" to work or could stay home by budgeting better or something, which I totally hate.

 

I'm trying to ask about people who feel that they *could* financially help a child who wants to get a certain degree, but refuse to do so (or support only the cheapest possible option when they could do more). I have met people IRL who have told me this directly, but none of them would ever consider teaching their kids Latin or music either. This is too complex a question for a discussion board I guess, but it's something I wonder about every time the "college isn't worth it" threads come around.

 

:iagree:

 

I get your question and have had similar thoughts when I have seen posts you describe. Most of the replies haven't really addressed your basic question, IMO, although they still make for interesting reading. :)

 

My kids already plan on college degrees in scientific fields. We plan to support them financially as much as possible and hope they get into their dream schools.

[nono]

I think that I overquoted, but here is my point. I think it must depend on your degree program or the college you attend.

 

I would again stress that it also depends on the person. Some folks just organically do. Others become consultants! (That's a crack at my dh who's reading along over my shoulder! :lol:) Ironically, he's turned into someone who just does, and no longer needs that very special Ivy MBA. People look at his work and say, "I want the guy who did that." No one asks if or where his degree is from, and it certainly isn't in what he's doing these days. In fact, what he's doing these days doesn't require a degree.

 

Do I think college was worthwhile for me? SURE! My tuition topped out at $6660 per year, and I clepped out of 15 freshmen credits. Would I think it was worth it at today's rates? See, there's the problem...

[nono]

I congratulate you on your superior intellect that makes autodidactic learning so easy. But maybe, just maybe you have just not challenged yourself and the things you attempted to learn were not hard enough.

 

 

Thank you for being so rude.

[joannqn]

You seem to be putting sacrificing a second income in order to homeschool and sacrificing a similar amount of money to pay for college as equal. Why are we willing to do the former but not the latter? For many of us, college requires both to be done at the same time. I can't just get a job to when my kids graduate to pay for college because I have younger kids to teach. If my older kids were to go to college right now, I might be able to find $100 a month to contribute to each of them. And that's not going to pay for college.

 

That said, I'm opening to self-employment, getting a job, or going to college. Paying for the latter is what we have to figure out how to do, if they choose that route.

[regentrude]

Thank you for being so rude.

 

I don't think it is rude when I state that there are obviously only these two possibilities: either you are just way smarter than almost everybody (I would not know, but it is possible, and I do say that without sarcasm), or you have not reached the limit where you would need expert help in learning something. It's gotta be one or the other. Maybe for you the limit is very far out because you are smart. I do not think it insulting to state this.

I regularly observe very bright students who managed to teach themselves much of the basics hit a wall eventually and get stuck; it is often rather traumatic for them, especially if they did get rather far, because they are so used to doing it on their own. But at a certain point, they are only able to advance with the assistance of an experienced professor.

For most people, even very smart ones, self studying everything is not possible. (And certain things are not learned by listening to college professors at cocktail parties)

Edited July 28, 2012 by regentrude

[marbel]

If you can afford to set up a research laboratory in your basement, buy the equipment, train yourself to use it... sure. Instead going to a university where you will be sharing those multi-million dollar resources and be trained to use them seems an immensely sensible way to me.

 

But not everyone has the desire and/or aptitude to go into fields that require a multi-million $ research lab!

[Bluegoat]

My husband's parents refused to pay for college (although it was within their means to do so) unless their children - all of them - selected an engineering degree. I'm glad I wasn't their kid, because I would not have made it through!

 

I had a friend whose parents told him he had to study engineering. He did well, but I thought that it was seriously overstepping on their part.

[justamouse]

College is simply an outside verification of proficiency or an acceptable level of performance. My dh and I have MBAs. We mostly think college is a bad deal given the current costs. In other words, that verification has become a burdensome fee! If my children can manage to get into the career they want without incurring the cost of a degree, yahooooooooo!

 

We homeschool for academic reasons. Just because our children may not pursue what we perceive to be an overpriced degree in <whatever> doesn't mean that they will be raised without the skills to have easily attained that degree.

:iagree:

 

My husband has a degree in so NOT his field it's a joke. His is in history. He formulates and makes things. :001_smile: He used none of the knowledge he gained from it doing what he does now.

 

Warren Buffet's kids don't even have degrees. I refuse to pay that much money for a piece of paper that they don't need.

 

If they *need* it, then we'll get it, but you'd be surprised what you can accomplish with drive. And, for us, we've a lot of opportunity that our business offers them. We'll start out with online degrees and just get a BA, then you can specialize, but I'm not putting all of us on the line for one degree. I'm building a legacy, here.

[Deb in NZ]

Sorry to be confusing. I'll try it this way.

If you homeschooled for primarily academic reasons:

Q 1. If your kids wanted to go to college, would you

a) support them as well as you possibly could without enormous debt/hardship or

b) refuse financial support beyond the absolute minimum required for a degree in something you thought economically viable?

 

Q 2. If you chose b, why is the education you gave them via homeschooling worth making major sacrifices for, but not a college education?

 

Q2 is the question I'm trying to get at, which Lolly answered. I don't know how many people actually fall into category b AND homeschooled for primarily academic reasons, so it's possible there will be very few answers.

 

I'm not trying to say college is the only reason for K-12 education to exist, or that college is valuable for everyone (I agree that it isn't). Also, I realize a huge number of us would answer "a" but are still unable to provide significant financial support for reasons we can't do much about. So again, maybe very few answers, but I think there will be some and am very curious about them.

 

I probably could be taken as one of the people to who you are refering. We HSed for academic reasons (i.e. the PS here was not able to meet ds#1's needs), but we do not feel that uni is necessary for many dc. We were a single income family for a decade to allow me to stay home to teach our dc & partly because of this are unable to fund tertiary education for our dc. We feel that a solid secondary education will offer our dc the best foundation to enter adulthood, whether that leads to university / apprenticeships / cadetships / etc. We HSed to allow our dc the freedom to explore areas of interest & develop their passions. Not being confined to the PS requirements gave us plenty of time for this in addition to solid academics.

 

This week's New Zealand Listener has an article http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/business/a-degree-of-humility-graduate-job-seeking/ that makes one wonder if having just any degree is really an advantage, if you take on large student loans. Yes, this article is refering to New Zealand, but NZ hasn't been hit as hard as may places in the States. We, also, have more options of post-secondary qualifications. Dd is in her final semester of her degree & ds#1 began an engineering apprenticeship in April. Both will gain their qualifications before they turn 21, dd with ~$20k in student loans, while ds#1 will have 4 years work experience & money in the bank. Unknown to dd we plan to help out as we are able to pay back her student loans, but the main responsibility of the debt is hers. Ds#2 is aiming on following his brother in the apprenticeship path, not because he isn't able to succeed at uni, but because what he wants to do after highschool uni won't provide the qualifications necessary. I have a degree + some post-grad study, while dh completed a 4 year apprenticeship. Both qualifications are equally valued in our family.

 

JMHO,

[Bluegoat]

I know-- this gets into the same territory as whether a working mom "really needs" to work or could stay home by budgeting better or something, which I totally hate.

 

I'm trying to ask about people who feel that they *could* financially help a child who wants to get a certain degree, but refuse to do so (or support only the cheapest possible option when they could do more). I have met people IRL who have told me this directly, but none of them would ever consider teaching their kids Latin or music either. This is too complex a question for a discussion board I guess, but it's something I wonder about every time the "college isn't worth it" threads come around.

 

I think I see a little better where you are coming from now than in the OP.

 

I homeschool for academic reasons. I'd like my kids to finish their k-12 years being really well-educated, with all those basic skills that used to be taught in high schools. And I think that doesn't mean just university type skills like writing, but even vocational type skills - people used to come out of high school being able to do some accounting, or shorthand, and really just be competent to enter the workforce and get on the job training to round things out or go into academic studies, and they'd know enough history to vote intelligently.

 

And it is a sacrifice to do that financially, but one that is spread out. That sacrifice has other advantages though that are non-academic - I think in the elementary years it really helps kids build a secure personality, for example, and it can help the family be close and avoid the rat race of school/home/activities that seems to overwhelm people. I can, for example, let my daughter spend a fair bit of time on music while not feeling pressed in other ways. And I find it really hard to separate those from the academic reasons - they go together for me.

 

University isn't quite the same for a few reasons. One is just that some of those considerations are not there. Kids at that point are really ready to go out into the oworld in some way, and it is too late to try to be giving them secure foundations. Those needs are not there any more in the same way. But the need to start making one's way as an adult isn't necessarily best done in a university setting - there are lots of options.

 

I also think that a lot of universities are not actually providing a great education. I know many people that don't do all the things I consider basic for 12 - they can't write, can't think, and have no context for history or politics. (I used to mark essays of recruits in the army. Some were university students and their work was not particularly reassuring.) So I am just not inclined to pay a lot of money for that.

 

I also don't tend to think of university primarily as a place for job training. I do think a good school can really help a person become well educated if they are inclined to the kind of thinking the university is there for. If I had a child that way inclined, and if I had the money, I would help support that without a qualm, no matter how impractical and they would eventually get a tangentially related or altogether different job. And if they were looking to actually be academics I would be willing to work pretty hard to do it. (The difficulty here I think is that it can simply be out of reach to go to university in many situations.)

 

If my child was looking for a job more than an education, I would help with university if that was what was required, but I would want to be careful that was really the best way to get those skills, and that the child was really fairly sure about that career path. I actually think that for job skills alone, it isn't that efficient or cost effective. (And if I were looking at American schools that would be even more pronounced.)

 

So I guess I am kind of the opposite of some people here. If I could I might well fund an art history degree. A child looking for a practical job I might tend to suggest options like welding, or a vocational journalism program rather than a university one, or maybe starting a business. I tend to favour jobs that can give self-sufficiency in some way rather than ones that lead to employment with someone else.

 

I think I also have a pretty deep-seated feeling that working class and blue collar jobs are really very important work, they have a lot of dignity and can give a lot of happiness. I have a fairly wide diversity of jobs in my extended family, and happiness and success aren't especially linked to the jobs that require university or those that don't. (And in fact several in my age groups have university degrees and then completed vocational training, including myself.)

[Katy]

We're academically orientated, and will encourage our DC to get STEM or Accounting degrees. If they insist on something fluffy that is EASY to learn in real life, they'll have to talk us into it, and probably double major in STEM or something like education so at least they have jobs to fall back on.

 

We want to prepare our DC for practical life. We think undergraduate humanities are overrated. Also, we're following a great books sort of program already, so they should be better educated by the time they leave us than most college graduates are already.

 

This might change a little if they opt (and can get into) for a school like Harvard or Reed, well known for intellectual kids who are capable of any job.

 

And I don't necessarily feel that other fields are without merit - if money were no object, I'd go back to school and study theology, just for the pure joy of learning. I just don't think luxuries are something we have the duty to finance.

[Heidi]

Or are there people who believe academics for a 12yo is important enough to invest in homeschooling full time, but a four-year liberal arts degree for an 18yo is a pointless luxury they’re unwilling to support? If that's you, why do you feel that way?

 

 

That would be me... but I wouldn't say every college degree is a pointless luxury; however it is one I am unwilling to support.

 

First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Second, there is an age difference between K-12 and college. Our #1 goal for our future adult children is that they know how to work hard for what they want (and not to go into debt for it). Before they leave our home they will know that they are not entitled to ANYTHING except the freedom to make their own choices.

 

 

My perspective, of course, comes from my own experiences. I was given everything, not taught how to work, not directed by my parents at all. College, room & board, car & car insurance was all paid for... yet I couldn't work hard enough to put gasoline in my car. I was very immature, dependent financially & emotionally on my father, and quite pathetic. I didn't take college seriously and dropped out. My father let me know exactly how pathetic I was, and looking back.. he was right. However, I blame it on him. He raised me to be dependent.

 

I gave the car back to my dad (and stopped speaking to him for a season) and rode a bike/bus to two jobs to pay for my own very cheap apartment and I learned, at the age of 20, how to work and the value of a dollar.

 

My husband, on the other hand, was raised to work very, very hard on a dairy. They were too poor to pay for college, so my dh worked very, very hard as an adult and paid for his own college, which he took very seriously. He is confident & able. He is quite sucessful and doing what he wants in his career.

 

We both know, from experience, the value of hard work. It is the #1 value in our home. Paying for college, we believe, would be doing a great disservice to our children and deny them the most important lesson of all. Of course, I hope to prepare them well and teach them how to work and be independent before they turn 18.

 

ETA: I'm teaching my kids latin. :)

Edited July 28, 2012 by hmsmith

[PeacefulChaos]

I'm trying to ask about people who feel that they *could* financially help a child who wants to get a certain degree, but refuse to do so (or support only the cheapest possible option when they could do more).

 

Ok, I guess I get what you are saying? Just regarding people who can afford to pay for their kid to go to college - is that right?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, just trying to figure out exactly what you are asking here. Like, what is the standard by which someone can or cannot pay for their kid to go to college? (Total seriousness - I'm curious as to what you consider 'can')