Question for those who think college unnecessary

[QueenCat]

To play devil's advocate....is it possible that your kid isn't in those classes, as he showed proficiency? There might be a whole slew of lower level clases that you don't know about (or aren't listed that way, but are), or I am just totally wrong. Either is perfectly legitimate. I have many friends who teach at colleges and unversities and they are horrified by the level of ability kids come in with. Also, the best professors usually don't teach 1st or 2nd year classes anyway, right? ;)

 

You are right, he is not in remedial classes. They have a handful of those, in math and English, for those on provisional admission. You do not get credit for them, at least not where he attends. All of his classes are regular and honors. He only exempted one English class, due to ACT, but chose not to take the offered exemption on the second. I did see the whole listing of what is offered in English and Math, as it is the same university we used for dual enrollment, so I was required to approve the courses during that time period.

[justamouse]

I have even more thoughts on this, but it's so far from the OPs questions, that's I'll stop now. We've had non-stop discussions about this all weekend with our friends about this topic, and it's so interesting all the different viewpoints. The one thing my friends did agree upon about my viewpoint on this whole issue is that I can have a much more "laissez-faire" attitude about my children's post-secondary education because we provide both the contacts and financial security that most are seeking to secure from a college education. And that's something to consider...

 

VERY, very true. Yup, I totally agree.

 

Buffet's kids didn't get any degrees because they're Buffet's kids (they will not inherit his wealth, but he has given them 'amounts'). They're not wastrels, they're industrious business people in their own rights, but they had a leg up.

[creekland]

:iagree: I wonder if the college/university we attend is the primary determinant of how valuable we consider college for our own children?

 

I was very fortunate to attend a fantastic, smaller, liberal arts college. It stretched me as a thinking person in many ways beyond what my work technically required. After graduating, I took some graduate courses at a state university (not a UC). I was shocked at the difference in quality and level between the two institutions.

 

Would I want my kids to rack up debt for the "education" they'd receive at the second sort of institution? Absolutely not. It would be such a waste.

 

Could I see them rack up a manageable level of debt to attend the first sort of institution? Yep. Absolutely. It took me a while to pay off my college debt, but it was worth every penny.

 

A good college will stretch you intellectually, and that will stay with you and shape you for a lifetime. A mediocre college will give you a piece of paper, but at least that piece of paper opens more options for you. If my only experience was with the second, mediocre institution, I'd place much less value on a college education for my own children. Since I know there's something much, much better out there, I want the same thing for my children.

 

I hope my children will be able to attend a quality college, but maybe it just won't be financially feasible. The prospect of not being able to help them enough financially is the one thing that makes me question whether we should continue to home school or whether I should go back to work to help fund their college education. I've just started looking at some of the books about small colleges that don't cost an arm and a leg but that still provide excellent educations. I hope we can find some solution to the excellent college/manageable debt problem.

 

ETA: I am not saying that all state institutions are mediocre! They definitely are not. I'm only saying that not all universities/colleges (state or private) are equal.

 

:iagree: My oldest could tell the difference between his cc classes and his 4 year school counterparts and I expect my middle son will be able to as well. Both thought the cc classes were rather easy, much easier than expected... esp after homeschooling.

 

We search carefully when considering colleges.

 

 

One of our good friends managed the entire IT department for a group of luxury resorts after working his way up for 15 years with only a high school diploma. The problem was that when he wanted to leave that company, he spent almost 2 years looking. He kept hearing that it was company policy that applicants for the position he was looking for required at least a bachelors degree...his application wasn't making it past Human Resources even though he was qualified in every other way. He is only a couple of months away from getting his BS, but that was enough to get him an interview and another job. :)

Brenda

 

I've seen this sort of thing happen several times. The six adults I know who are/were working though colleges while on the job are making sure their kids get their degree first - when it's easier to fit into their lives. That piece of paper can make a ton of difference in today's world. It sometimes doesn't even matter if the degree is in the field.

[SW in IL]

When we first started homeschooling, I had visions of DD graduating from college on a full-scholarship, of course. And then going on to do great things in life. Now, I'll be glad if he actually graduates from high school.

 

College seems to be a waste of money for lots of today's youth. I understand that you need college for some professions... I wouldn't want a doctor/dentist who learned everything out of a book and practiced his craft on the game Operation. But, on the other hand, a friend of mine never went to college yet his stock portfolio beats that of professionals year after year. He quit his job (working as a janitor) at around age 26 and never looked back. And this was a guy who barely made it through high school!

 

I guess, in general, I'm pro-community college. I think all young adults should take some of the classes to prepare themselves for life. Composition, Public Speaking/Speech, Literature... maybe history and science. Enough to help them understand themselves and the world a bit better. From there, I think at least half the young people I know would be better off doing an apprenticeship to learn their vocation (or at least to give it a try before spending that much money on a piece of paper that may or may not do them any good in the "real" world).

 

Sue

[StartingOver]

I want my children to be prepared for what ever path they decide to take so we are very rigorous college prep. Now I have three adult children of them one has attended a trade school, two have military service, one is attending college at the moment through online classes. They all took community college classes in the high school years.

 

It isn't MY decision where they go, only my job that they are prepared to the best of my ability to go where their dreams take them.

[Bluegoat]

I want my kids to be happy with whatever path they choose and I feel like we need to get them prepared for whatever they choose. I am definitely not impressed with college in general, even though I have my BA and dh has his BS and MBA, but for some careers you just have to have it.

 

One of our good friends managed the entire IT department for a group of luxury resorts after working his way up for 15 years with only a high school diploma. The problem was that when he wanted to leave that company, he spent almost 2 years looking. He kept hearing that it was company policy that applicants for the position he was looking for required at least a bachelors degree...his application wasn't making it past Human Resources even though he was qualified in every other way. He is only a couple of months away from getting his BS, but that was enough to get him an interview and another job. :)

 

I'm an idealist by nature and hate the fact that sometimes you just have to "play the game". :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA - college served my husband and I well, but the price of that degree is high. I used to think Ivies were the way to go, but now I'm thinking small, but reputable colleges where students are still taught by the high priced professors rather than grad students (no offense intended), would be better. Of course I recently read "Killing the "Spirit" and that was just downright depressing, but true in so many ways.

 

Brenda

 

I agree this is sort of an annoying problem. My sister has done really well with no degree. She works in an IT field and is really good at it, especially with relation to how the user interface stuff. She went from being a trainer to a head of a whole department in a company in less than two years, and then later got a job in a gov health department out west because the benefits and so on were better.

 

The thing is she would like to move back east but similar kinds of companies and gov groups won't even look at her resume.

 

She isn't considering getting a degree though. She tried university twice and only stayed a year both times - she is just not a person who learns well in that kind of setting, even working online from home. She is very hands on, experimental and experiential kind of learner. She just finished after ten years paying off the debt from her two attempts and isn't keen to add more.

 

She is thinking instead of opening her own business, which may be a better solution in any case.

 

It seems very wrong that we are so focused on the paper that proven performance become irrelevant in jobs that are performance driven.

[msk]

Ok, I guess I get what you are saying? Just regarding people who can afford to pay for their kid to go to college - is that right?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, just trying to figure out exactly what you are asking here. Like, what is the standard by which someone can or cannot pay for their kid to go to college? (Total seriousness - I'm curious as to what you consider 'can')

 

I know the conversation has evolved past this, but here's an answer anyway. :001_smile: I think every family has to decide that for themselves. When someone says "college would be great, but we can't afford it" I just take people's word that they can't afford it-- that's certainly easy to understand! It's the "college isn't worth it" statement I keep wondering about.

 

Some people here have posted saying they won't pay for college on principle b/c they think it'll make their kids more responsible adults or make them appreciate education more. Others say funding their own retirement is more important to them, or that they feel it's important to stop supporting their children financially in any way once they hit 18. Others say they want to do a more efficient or better job on the K-12 basics than their local PS but aren't heavily invested in formal education beyond that level. All of those reasons make sense to me, even if I happen to feel differently. I was just looking for help understanding why someone who values K-12 education highly would say "college isn't worth it" as a blanket statement because I don't happen to know anyone with that combination of views IRL, so thank you to those were willing to share.

 

Another part of the reason this is of interest to me is that I teach college courses. I have students in my classes who must spend so many hours on work and family responsibilities they can't pass, and others who only have time to put in a bare minimum of work to get a certain grade. They cram for exams and put everything in short-term memory, and barely skim reading assignments looking for the "right answers." Other students have the time (and inclination of course) to work harder on academics; they're the ones who are regularly focusing on making sure they understood the nuances of the assigned reading material, rewriting their papers to make their arguments stronger and better, thinking about how something from my class relates to something they read in the newspaper or heard in another class, etc.

 

I think that when it comes to education, most people get out what they put in. This means some (not all, but some) of my students with really heavy work schedules are going to end up finishing college and not feeling like they've learned much-- they weren't able to put much time in, so they didn't get much out. Many of those students have no choice in the matter because of their financial situation, and that is perfectly understandable (although I would hope they'd also realize lack of study time contributed to their not remembering much about some of their courses, rather than blaming it entirely on bad teaching!). But if the student who worked the 12-hour graveyard shift at a local fast food franchise immediately before coming to my 8am class each day had parents who could have helped him but chose not to, I think I would cry. (He failed my course, but how could he not?)

Edited July 30, 2012 by msk
typo

[creekland]

But if the student who worked the 12-hour graveyard shift at a local fast food franchise immediately before coming to my 8am class each day had parents who could have helped him but chose not to, I think I would cry. (He failed my course, but how could he not?)

 

Some of our kids at school have parents who won't fill out financial aid forms for their students even though they know they won't need to pay a dime (the parents won't). The kids would just like to get some aid and often qualify for it. I really feel for those kids. I'm glad I wasn't born into a family like that. It's one thing for parents not to want to (or be able to) pay, it's totally another when they choose to hurt their kids' opportunities by their principles. Granted, they may not like the system, but it is what it is.

[PeacefulChaos]

I think every family has to decide that for themselves. When someone says "college would be great, but we can't afford it" I just take people's word that they can't afford it-- that's certainly easy to understand! It's the "college isn't worth it" statement I keep wondering about.

 

Some people here have posted saying they won't pay for college on principle b/c they think it'll make their kids more responsible adults or make them appreciate education more. Others say funding their own retirement is more important to them, or that they feel it's important to stop supporting their children financially in any way once they hit 18. Others say they want to do a more efficient or better job on the K-12 basics than their local PS but aren't heavily invested in formal education beyond that level. All of those reasons make sense to me, even if I happen to feel differently. I was just looking for help understanding why someone who values K-12 education highly would say "college isn't worth it" as a blanket statement because I don't happen to know anyone with that combination of views IRL, so thank you to those were willing to share.

 

Another part of the reason this is of interest to me is that I teach college courses. I have students in my classes who must spend so many hours on work and family responsibilities they can't pass, and others who only have time to put in a bare minimum of work to get a certain grade. They cram for exams and put everything in short-term memory, and barely skim reading assignments looking for the "right answers." Other students have the time (and inclination of course) to work harder on academics; they're the ones who are regularly focusing on making sure they understood the nuances of the assigned reading material, rewriting their papers to make their arguments stronger and better, thinking about how something from my class relates to something they read in the newspaper or heard in another class, etc.

 

I think that when it comes to education, most people get out what they put in. This means some (not all, but some) of my students with really heavy work schedules are going to end up finishing college and not feeling like they've learned much-- they weren't able to put much time in, so they didn't get much out. Many of those students have no choice in the matter because of their financial situation, and that is perfectly understandable (although I would hope they'd also realize lack of study time contributed to their not remembering much about some of their courses, rather than blaming it entirely on bad teaching!). But if the student who worked the 12-hour graveyard shift at a local fast food franchise immediately before coming to my 8am class each day had parents who could have helped him but chose not to, I think I would cry. (He failed my course, but how could he not?)

Ok, I gotcha. Thanks for the reply! :)

Some of our kids at school have parents who won't fill out financial aid forms for their students even though they know they won't need to pay a dime (the parents won't). The kids would just like to get some aid and often qualify for it. I really feel for those kids. I'm glad I wasn't born into a family like that. It's one thing for parents not to want to (or be able to) pay, it's totally another when they choose to hurt their kids' opportunities by their principles. Granted, they may not like the system, but it is what it is.

 

Why can't kids fill out their own financial aid forms?? :confused: (Totally serious - I filled mine out by myself. I guess I thought that was the norm??)

[Caroline]

Ok, I gotcha. Thanks for the reply! :)

 

 

Why can't kids fill out their own financial aid forms?? :confused: (Totally serious - I filled mine out by myself. I guess I thought that was the norm??)

 

Because you need your parents' tax records.

[PeacefulChaos]

Because you need your parents' tax records.

 

Oh. Duh. :tongue_smilie:

[Laura Corin]

I just picked that out of a hat out of many that I would consider difficult to get a job in a field with that degree. All the people who I know with philosopy degrees are doing something totally different. One owns a company that fabricates museum installations, another teaches 7th grade English. I could have picked something else...it doesn't really matter what....my point was somewhat nebulous...

 

If it's good, it's training in how to think. The fact that people with philosophy degrees are doing something unrelated doesn't mean that the degree was useless.

 

When Husband was working in the the City of London in a financial firm, he kept coming across people with impressive thinking skills that they applied to their jobs. As he got to know them, he discovered that the most impressive had been to particular universities (mostly Oxford and Cambridge) but they had a range of 'useless' degrees (classics, English literature, philosophy....). The university had trained their brains to readiness for whatever they encountered in the future.

 

Laura

[creekland]

 

Why can't kids fill out their own financial aid forms?? :confused: (Totally serious - I filled mine out by myself. I guess I thought that was the norm??)

 

Because you need your parents' tax records.

 

This. And the parents need to sign. And many of them don't want to share their info, support their kids once they turn 18 and/or feel college is worthless and use this to "force" their way on their kids. It's generally those with lower income who didn't go to college themselves. Actually, I can't think of any time I know of IRL when that wasn't the situation. College is a dirty word in some segments of society and they don't want their younguns goin' there to get ruined. Kids can't get financing without the forms filled out, so these parents have the upper hand. Kids aren't independent until they are 24 (I think that's the age) or married. By then the kids are in dead end jobs and have lost college interest, not to mention their skills being rusty.

 

I did come across one who had saved up to start community college classes while working at a kiosk in our mall. He's married now and trying to juggle a family too. It can be done, but it sure isn't easy (mainly due to the time commitments later in life).

[ChristyB in TN]

If it's good, it's training in how to think. The fact that people with philosophy degrees are doing something unrelated doesn't mean that the degree was useless.

 

Laura

 

:iagree: Nothing we accomplish and learn can be considered useless. Every book I read, problem I solved, and paper I wrote getting my degree I really don't need in my job, made me better and more aware than I would have been otherwise. Homeschooling my kids did much the same thing for me, I think the books, the Latin, and all that history has made me a better voter, business owner, investor...I could go on forever. Having the tenacity to stick it out in college says a lot about a person, too.

[BlsdMama]

Having the tenacity to stick it out in college says a lot about a person, too.

 

Having to have tenacity in order to "stick it out" says a lot about the college too. :glare:

 

Some of us are cross-overs. We began with TWTM with the college attitude and are now just jaded.

 

We believe in rigorous education and in inspired education so that our children know that SELF education is possible. They'll go to college if it seems necessary I suppose. But I've been re-thinking the "automatic" move into college that I took for granted before. The military was so kind as to pay off the bills from DH's B.S. and pay for a large part of his masters' degrees and MBA but we still have student loans. They were necessary... They got his foot in the door and help advance him every couple of years, but he doesn't use much of the information he learned. Sigh.