Question for those who think college unnecessary

[OrganicAnn]

Academic camp and college is important group.

 

I've heard of college as defined as the ability to sustain prolonged higher level study with a certain level of achievement or success. They idea being it is not so much what you learn, but that you are capable of that 4 year of effort.

 

I was a literature major in college. It is interesting that my sister was a science major, but after college we were both single gals living in the same town. She got interested in reading literature and we'd talk about the books once she had read them. Once she asked me if she would like talking a college literature course. I told her that she wouldn't enjoy the papers and essay tests. She was getting all the fun of literature - the reading and discussing. I think that self-education is like this. You don't have the tests, the papers, the pop quizzes. It isn't that you don't learn something. So if it is only learning about literature that mattered then college isn't that important. If it is learning plus preforming to a certain level against other educated students, then college matters.

 

In my graduate MBA classes, what made it challenging and a highly ranked program was that you were competing for grades against very good students. The bar is higher to get every grade.

 

I wonder if those that don't like that college matters so much (for jobs) are by their personalities non conformists who just don't like all the rules and procedures needed to get degrees. This would make them more likely to HS too.

 

Just my rambling thoughts.

Edited July 28, 2012 by OrganicAnn

[Bluegoat]

I don't think it is rude when I state that there are obviously only these two possibilities: either you are just way smarter than almost everybody (I would not know, but it is possible, and I do say that without sarcasm), or you have not reached the limit where you would need expert help in learning something. It's gotta be one or the other. Maybe for you the limit is very far out because you are smart. I do not think it insulting to state this.

I regularly observe very bright students who managed to teach themselves much of the basics hit a wall eventually and get stuck; it is often rather traumatic for them, especially if they did get rather far, because they are so used to doing it on their own. But at a certain point, they are only able to advance with the assistance of an experienced professor.

For most people, even very smart ones, self studying everything is not possible. (And certain things are not learned by listening to college professors at cocktail parties)

 

I would again stress that it also depends on the person. Some folks just organically do. Others become consultants! (That's a crack at my dh who's reading along over my shoulder! :lol:) Ironically, he's turned into someone who just does, and no longer needs that very special Ivy MBA. People look at his work and say, "I want the guy who did that." No one asks if or where his degree is from, and it certainly isn't in what he's doing these days. In fact, what he's doing these days doesn't require a degree.

 

Do I think college was worthwhile for me? SURE! My tuition topped out at $6660 per year, and I clepped out of 15 freshmen credits. Would I think it was worth it at today's rates? See, there's the problem...

 

Reading this exchange, I am having a few thoughts.

 

I would say on the one hand that MBAs are, as far as I can tell, just the sort of degree that is over-rated and not worth the cash.

 

I think this is true in other subjects at the university. In some cases it is only because accreditation is required to work in the field that you really need that degree. Or sometimes no one else is offering the training any more (teacher's colleges no longer exist here for example.) But the subjects are such that there is no special facilities required and having an academic or intellectual community to interact with isn't a huge deal.

 

I think regentrude you are really addressing those two separate issues - facilities and the intellectual community. It seems that in some areas of study these days the facilities required are found primarily in universities, and there are not many options otherwise. If you need a million dollar bit of equipment to persue your studies it is very hard to do that alone. That being said, sometimes those facilities do exist in industry, or in other kinds of private institutions. I can imagine that it could be possible to do the same studies in that kind of environment and never earn a degree, with mentors. But then there is the issue of accreditation and who is going to let some guy they know nothing about play with their expensive equipment? In any case at the moment as far as I know that isn't an option for most.

 

The issue of the intellectual community is similar. I agree that in many cases self-study through texts is not enough. But it is possible to be involved in intellectual communities outside the university, and I think in many cases a person can seek those out in other ways. The back and forth can happen in other contexts.

 

Right now the university seems to be the focus for many of those communities, especially in the sciences, but that isn't inevitable. There have been times when universities had a very poor reputation and the best thinkers were found outside the university. I wonder if this may not happen in my lifetime to some extent.

 

I think it's interesting that some people consider some degrees like history or literature to be "fluff" I think that those subjects are ones that really are difficult to achieve your best in without access to a larger intellectual community, through a really good university or private mentorship or whatever. I think online degrees are unlikely to provide that.

[Aspasia]

I agree! My LAC took very, very few people who were not capable of this and they were admitted on academic probation. Remedial classes did not exist. The closest thing was "college writing" and even that class was STOUT! I got my money's worth out of every single course including the ones that I hated. :001_smile:

 

Faith

 

I went to a very competitive university that certainly didn't offer remedial classes, and if you asked the students there if they could write, they would all say they could. And yet, when I was approached by a professor to be a teaching assistant and writing advisor, I was shocked by what I saw in my peers' writing. These were intelligent kids, average incoming freshman gpa of 3.9, 90th percentile and above on SAT/ACT. These were not remedial students, but their substandard writing skills were shocking. So I have a really hard time believing that the average high school graduate in this country--public schooled, homeschooled, or anything else--can actually write well. Heck, most college graduates can't. A lot of people will say they can, but I'm not just talking about correct spelling or punctuation. I'm talking about organized, coherent, effective writing. And that is achieved at a higher level than basic high school proficiency. Same for really being able to think (a skill that I believe is honed through rigorous writing requirements).

 

ETA: I do believe that people can be great writers by the time they graduate from high school, but they have to have had a really, really great teacher. I obviously expect that my children will be strong writers by the time I'm through with them, but I'm a writing nazi. ;). AND I'm certain that a good university would make them even better.

Edited July 28, 2012 by infomom

[JennyD]

>First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Wait, which of these are you thinking of being more expensive? Obviously I don't know your background, but 20+ years out of the workforce could certainly be costing you much more than 5 college tuitions.

[justamouse]

I wonder if those that don't like that college matters so much (for jobs) are by their personalities non conformists who just don't like all the rules and procedures needed to get degrees. This would make them more likely to HS too.

 

Just my rambling thoughts.

 

I might agree with you, here. :D

 

I will pay for my kids to go to school once the bubble pops, and, I see no shame in trades (of course this automatically gets bumped up to a small business to me). I tease my Dd 17 who wants to go to school for Nutrition, but is getting her cosmetology license, "When you get your shop, we can get your boyfriend his Harley Garage (he's a motorcycle mechanic). And then she has this running joke with her friend that they're going to own a bar-and I tell them daddy and I will buy you three a strip mall and you can get your hair cut while your bike is fixed and then have a drink. We'll hold the mortgage, you can pay it off and then own it yourselves. :D ) That's the grand plan, anyway. Then she can come work for us when she graduates.

[nono]

I don't think it is rude when I state that there are obviously only these two possibilities: either you are just way smarter than almost everybody (I would not know, but it is possible, and I do say that without sarcasm), or you have not reached the limit where you would need expert help in learning something. It's gotta be one or the other. Maybe for you the limit is very far out because you are smart. I do not think it insulting to state this.

I regularly observe very bright students who managed to teach themselves much of the basics hit a wall eventually and get stuck; it is often rather traumatic for them, especially if they did get rather far, because they are so used to doing it on their own. But at a certain point, they are only able to advance with the assistance of an experienced professor.

For most people, even very smart ones, self studying everything is not possible. (And certain things are not learned by listening to college professors at cocktail parties)

 

I was supposed to reach that limit in undergrad??:001_huh: You seem to be saying that all learning stops upon exiting a university. What on Earth do you think I've been doing for the last 25 years of my life???!! Rotting on the vine? That's hilarious! :lol:

 

Regardless, you came after me, I answered, and you seem to want to position yourself to sit in judgement of the relative limits of my intellgence. Since this is not the point of this thread, I decline to engage further. Lest you take that as rolling over and dying, I will say that my resume seems to indicate that perhaps I have something going on upstairs that's of worth to someone. But, hey, maybe they were all idiots who paid me all those years. Personally, I don't think they were. I found many of them to be quite extraordinary. I've learned much from them. Even from some who didn't have a college degree!

[InterestingCase]

I would again stress that it also depends on the person. Some folks just organically do. Others become consultants! (That's a crack at my dh who's reading along over my shoulder! :lol:) Ironically, he's turned into someone who just does, and no longer needs that very special Ivy MBA. People look at his work and say, "I want the guy who did that." No one asks if or where his degree is from, and it certainly isn't in what he's doing these days. In fact, what he's doing these days doesn't require a degree.

 

Do I think college was worthwhile for me? SURE! My tuition topped out at $6660 per year, and I clepped out of 15 freshmen credits. Would I think it was worth it at today's rates? See, there's the problem...

 

Of course, each individual will vary in what they can glean from an experience.

[DawnM]

My friend is a Math professor. He went to UCLA and wanted to study theater. His parents told him that NO WAY would they support that, so, he got a math degree, several of them! He is very good at math, but his real passion is theater.

 

Dawn

 

I had a friend whose parents told him he had to study engineering. He did well, but I thought that it was seriously overstepping on their part.

[DawnM]

Well, I gave up my job, which paid quite well and held full benefits, to stay home and homeschool. It was a huge expense just in wages lost.

 

As for college expense, it isn't as bad in NC as in places like NJ for state schools. We have a couple of schools that would be affordable if our kids lived at home and commuted and just paid tuition. We are pushing for that unless there is some special reason for them to attend a different school further away.

 

Dawn

 

>First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Wait, which of these are you thinking of being more expensive? Obviously I don't know your background, but 20+ years out of the workforce could certainly be costing you much more than 5 college tuitions.

[PeacefulChaos]

I'm still waiting for the OP to answer my last question :) but wanted to chime in on a couple things...

 

They idea being it is not so much what you learn, but that you are capable of that 4 year of effort.

 

I wonder if those that don't like that college matters so much (for jobs) are by their personalities non conformists who just don't like all the rules and procedures needed to get degrees. This would make them more likely to HS too.

 

Just my rambling thoughts.

On the first part - I think that most people would be capable of a 4 year effort in something they were passionate about. I really do. But the fact is, not everyone is passionate about something that requires said 4 year effort. Why should anyone make this effort for something they don't care about or need?

Regarding the second part, I kind of feel like that is oversimplifying reasons for people not going to college. Are you speaking of anyone in particular? (I mean do you know people IRL that make you think this?) I could see that being the case for a few people, but there are so many jobs out there that DO NOT need a degree! :) I highly doubt that people who are successful without a college degree - from hard work elsewhere - are non conformists who don't like rules! Idk, it just sounds kind of insulting to consider those who don't feel that everyone needs to go get a degree just to have it to be against rules and regulations. :confused:

>First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Wait, which of these are you thinking of being more expensive? Obviously I don't know your background, but 20+ years out of the workforce could certainly be costing you much more than 5 college tuitions.

College is definitely more expensive than homeschooling. :confused: I don't homeschool for anywhere near what college costs. :lol: And 20+ years out of the workforce - Idk, I don't really consider that to be a sound argument, either. It isn't like that money would be going toward college alone. Honestly, I don't really see where it has to do with anything. :001_huh: Idk, maybe I'm being dense (which is entirely possible :lol: ) but I look at the cost of homeschooling 2 kids (roughly 2,000 a year right now) and I don't see how on earth that could compare to the cost of college. For me the missing out on salary means nothing, but even for those who have a profession that they would make a fair amount of money in - I think that money would likely be spent on a bunch of other things that really have nothing to do with the whole discussion.

[swellmomma]

I am homeschooling for academic reasons but will not be paying for my kids to go to college. It's not a matter of not valueing it, I just don't think it is the end all be all of higher education. I can't afford to pay anything towards their college. instead I intend to do all I can to get them started on a trade during high school, they then have the option of staying in that trade, or working to make money to pay their own way through college (or go right into the work force, or start a business, or join the army etc).

 

I homeschool for academic reasons to be sure that every door possible is open to them, not because I have college specifically as the end goal

[Audrey]

Now, see, you've confused me.

 

Of course we homeschooled for academic reasons, but our goal wasn't college. It was to help our children learn as much at home as was possible, such that if they wanted to go to college, they'd be ready, but if not, they'd still be ready for life.

 

I guess I don't agree with your categories. :-)

 

But :iagree: with Ellie.

[jennynd]

My kids will be encouraged to go to college. I will pay for 5 distinguished schools, outside of the 5, they will have to take care of themselves. I do believe that college is necessary and is a great life time experience but not necessary to have career. I don't see why a baker or a carpenter need to go to college. However, I also don't believe that people can teach themselves whatever they needed to know. Sure, Bill Gates didn't finish school. but, 1 he was unusually smart. 2. He was at the right place at the right time and meet the right people. It is like winning a lottery and I won't count on that.

I "afterschool" hoping to prepare them for whatever they want to do. I will be disappointed if they end up not going but that will be their life.

[black_midori]

I had a friend whose parents told him he had to study engineering. He did well, but I thought that it was seriously overstepping on their part.

 

To me, THIS is the core of it.

 

We would fall firmly into your second category.

We should be (economy & cost permitting) financially able to have our kids go to college if they desire. We both went to college and have degrees. I use mine (in a job that requires it) and dh does not (he would have been just as well off doing a sort of internship in his field) - however, he makes enough money to comfortably support our family (I work part-time for pleasure & "extras"). We feel that homeschooling is important enough that I forgo a lucrative wage to do so. This is primarily for academic reasons, although all our reasons tie together into family & academics.

 

However, we will most likely NOT pay in full for our kids to go to college for several reasons:

- We try very hard to avoid debt. We have no debt except for the house (which we are pushing to pay off sooner rather than later). We want to pass this philosophy along to our kids, which would be hard to do if we were willing to pay lots of money out that we didn't have in-hand for a college degree, particularly one that would not directly assist in some self-supporting end goal.

- We will encourage our kids to go to college, but dh is ready proof that it isn't always the right thing to do if you don't have a specific end-goal. I wanted to be a CPA, so I needed a degree. Dh got a physics degree and ended up working in the auto industry and learned the skills he needed by basically doing a 2 week course in it with a business & then starting work under someone. He could have saved a mountain of debt for his parents and himself had he forgone college (to be fair, he wanted to be a college prof at first & just never went through with it).

 

The core of it, though, is related to the above post. At some point, kids grow up and are SUPPOSED to make their own choices - society says this is 18yo. Kids think this is 18yo. Outside viewers think this is 18yo. It's hard to put my thought into exact words, but...

- If you push regular math on an elementary school student, you are covering "academic basics".

- If you push advanced math on a high school student, you are encouraging "academic excellence".

- If you push college level math on a college student, you are "overstepping".

 

So basically, I won't beggar myself & go into debt for my kids college because I think that at 18yo my job as an educator is pretty much done & it is time for them to start making relatively adult decisions. Will I assist them with those decisions if they desire? Absolutely. Will I even financially assist if I feel that they are making a rational adult decision that I agree with? Totally. Will I be willing to support them as they pursue a fluff degree & get a "cool college drinking experience"? No.

 

My goal is to raise a young adult who is ready to get along in life and can make reasonable decisions about how to do so. If at 18yo they desperately want to be a rocket scientist & are willing to make huge personal sacrifices to do so, then I will completely support them (emotionally, not financially). If at 18yo they instead meet a woman they wish to marry and become a stay at home husband, I will support that as well.

 

Our current desire is to assist our kids in their chosen careers by offering a matching deal. They work hard to earn the money necessary to pursue desires that we approve of and feel will further them as adults in this tough world and we will match those funds with our hard-earned money to assist. I want my kids to WANT to do what they want to do, and personal sacrifice by them is a large part of that.

 

Yes, it would have to be something we approve of. If they work hard so that they can buy drugs, for instance, it's a no go. :lol: If they work at something that I do not support in principle, then I will not support it either. THEM, yes. That goal, no.

 

I guess for me, the point is that I am willing to sacrifice potential wages and benefits for the next 12 years to try and create a happy, confident, academically capable adult. At 18yo, my job is done - they ARE an adult, and hopefully the sacrifices I make during those 12 years will have made them ready to act like one. Choosing to go or not to go to college or to do/not do a trade school or to go travel the world or to get married or to have kids or just to work at McDs - those are all ADULT decisions. They aren't my decisions any more - the 12 years was all put in to make an adult capable of making those decisions on their own & determining for themselves how to make it happen.

Edited July 28, 2012 by black_midori

[NatashainDFW]

DS has been set on what he wants to do for quite some time. The school he wants to attend requires he have multiple years of volunteer or work time in the field before he can even be admitted. He must be 8 before our local large and small animal vet will allow him to begin volunteering. So after the first of the year he will begin shoveling poop and spending time with the animals. Eventually he will be assisting the doctor but his real goal is to be the doctor. Thankfully DH has a career with the state that will provide financial aid without us having to go into debt. If he needs help we will be willing to assist him or any of our children as long as they are keeping grades at a level we know they are capable of.

 

We don't sacrifice financially to homeschool though. My husband works outside the home and I work from home so we are still a two income household. Granted I don't rest much but I thrive when I stay busy. If I were to have the evenings and weekend off every week I would probably go insane. At least this way even though I do still have to work on the weekends it can be done after family time or while we go on vacation. I also homeschool very frugally. I am looking at spending under $200 for both children's curriculum and supplies for the year. Next year will likely cost a bit more but I work hard to use resources that are inexpensive/free while still tailoring them to the level my kids need.

[Catherine]

I worked my way through college and medical school, and undertook considerable debt doing it. I simply can't imagine denying my kids a similar shot at a liberal arts education when their time comes, if they want one. College is the key to properity and security in the USA, and around the world. The numbers of people who can do a Bill Gates or Einstein are infinitessimal.

 

I hate that college is so expensive, but I will bust my )(%$^& to get a good college education for my kids. It's worth it, both intellectually and career-wise.

[ElaineJ]

I haven't read the responses here beyond the first couple of pages, but here is my thinking.......

I think the value of a college degree beyond "having that piece of paper to get a job" depends a lot on what college you attend. I did about a semester's worth of my degree at a community college and the rest at a smaller, liberal arts focused university. Honestly, the work done at the CC had little educational value beyond the "piece of paper" aspect. I don't mean that as a slam on CCs, which I think are very valuable and which I fully support. I will happily send my kids to one if that fits in with their needs and our financial resources. But the university I attended did much more to expand my thinking and develop me academically. The problem here is that I don't know if we will be able to send my kids to a college like that; in fact, we probably won't unless they get great scholarships. If they end up at a school where their classes do more to just get a diploma than educate them, that is life. but I still want to give them the best education I can at home because then they will be able to fill in the gaps for themselves and have enough context to continue their education outside of that kind of setting. So I am not educating for college; I am educating for lifelong learning in whatever form that takes.

Elaine

[Maverick_Mom]

I wouldn't say that college is unnecessary, per se -- but I think that for some kids it is. We didn't go into homeschooling with a plan for our kids to go to college, necessarily. If that's God's will, they will be prepared. But that wasn't the goal. I would say that we homeschooled each child for reasons unique to that child -- emotional needs, physical needs, academic needs, whatever -- at that time. It was about protecting our children and nurturing them and fostering relationships with them, and for us that was going to happen in the context of homeschooling. So I guess that in a sense, every year that we continue to homeschool, we are doing so with the "here and now" needs in mind, not an outside academic goal.

[CyndiLJ]

I think this is too much of an "either/or" kind of question. We can not pay for college, period. We adopted all five of our kids, and now are homeschooling...on an auto detailer's salary. It ain't happenin'!!

 

However, though we are carefully paying attention to what is going on in the world today and are concerned about the value of college (eventual income versus cost), people assume we are "anti-college" simply because we are asking the hard questions. We are not. We are simply recognizing that we currently live in a world that is quickly changing, and what was once true just might not still hold true today. Careers are disappearing, college costs have skyrocketed to a point where I think any wise person SHOULD be carefully assessing their value. There are also many ways to accrue college credit and eventually end up with a college degree that do not include jumping on the treadmill that many high schoolers find themselves on.

 

Additionally, the statistics of college drop out rates tell us that maybe...just maybe...we are unwilling as a society to acknowledge that, while it is a nice thought, many kids are going to college who simply never should have gone. There are a ton of other options out there, including those that include college or some college courses, but college is not the end all and be all. Is it necessary for some careers? Of COURSE it is. Is it necessary for every kid? No, it absolutely is not. That doesn't mean the parents aren't shooting high enough for their kids, or that the kids are incapable (although more apparently are than we want to admit, based upon those drop out rates). It simply means we are actually perhaps trying to force too many marginal kids down the college pipeline who might be far better served by career guidance that leads them to other training opportunities.

 

We homeschool not to get our kids into college, we homeschool because we want them to have an adequate education for k-12. In our case, we want those who are headed to college to be adequately prepared as well. We also want the world opened up more to our kids, for them to explore more, and to not be told by people that they are a failure if they decide college isn't the best route for them to take based upon their interests, skills, etc.

 

You know, years ago, college was never, ever thought to be for the vast majority of students as it is assumed to be for today. It was really viewed as being for the higher level students, while others would go on to trades, business ownership, etc. Today we think every student should go to college, and I guess I just disagree with that in principle, for it reflects an unwillingness to be intellectually honest about the abilities of a large number of kids who are being neglected simply because they are being told there is only one path to success. We are failing many of our young people today by trying to make them into something that is not a good fit, all because we really WANT it to be a good fit.

 

I also think, sadly, that our culture somehow equates "college degree" with happiness. We prefer that our children recognize that happiness MAY include a college degree that leads to a much desired job, but that the college degree=higher income=larger house=cooler car=happiness is something dangled before them as a carrot that might prove to be quite bitter tasting. Happiness is about far more than that. I reiterate that it can indeed include that, but we want our kids to understand the deeper meanings of happiness and not be fooled into thinking that it is assured based upon how our culture "sells" what happiness is supposed to look like. I know I am not expressing this well, but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

I hate that it is assumed that simply because a family sees more than college as a possible path for their kids that they are automatically classified as denying their kids a future. I have been accused of that here on the forums, even when I repeatedly say that we are not against college and likely have a couple headed there! Maybe, for some families, that future just has a few more options to look at that don't preclude college, but don't point to that as the ideal. And my kids deserve a solid K-12 education so they have a command of all the basics when they graduate high school, regardless of where their path leads them. Anything less is a failure. Anything more is "gravy".

 

Cindy

[Skadi]

Q 1. If your kids wanted to go to college, would you

a) support them as well as you possibly could without enormous debt/hardship or

b) refuse financial support beyond the absolute minimum required for a degree in something you thought economically viable?

 

B.

 

Q 2. If you chose b, why is the education you gave them via homeschooling worth making major sacrifices for, but not a college education?

 

Because it is my responsibility to prepare my children for adulthood. Once they become adults, they are responsible for their own financial and educational responsibilities.

 

We homeschool for primarily academic purposes. I stay at home and we are dedicated to making whatever sacrifices we need to in order to continue homeschooling. We don't homeschool so that they can go to college, and we do have many reservations about college. My DH was one of those rare few who, like previous posters, obtained a hard science degree that was very specialized. He still thinks half of his college classes were ridiculous. He still thinks the education bubble will burst at some point like the housing bubble. He still wishes he could sit his 18 year old self down for a hard talk about how today's university is not his parent's 1950's idea of university, where every young person who graduates with honors is sumarily awarded with a career. I'll stop here because it's derailing the thread to get into all the why's and wherefore's of our criticisms of what my DH calls the Educational Industrial Complex. I just want to emphasize that we are extremely skeptical and we have no qualms on sharing our opinions with our kids.

 

However, if they decide to go to college, we'll guide them through the necessary steps to get there. We'll educate them about applications, scholarships, degrees. We would strongly advise them not to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt; this would not be the first time we introduced the concept of debt to them, so hopefully we could sway them against this, but...well, if they truly think it's the right path, it's their choice to make. We will support them wholeheartedly in whatever endeavor they choose. But we will most certainly not pay a dime. Not because of our feelings about university education, but because we believe that the true test of whether a person is an adult or just an overgrown kid is whether they are responsible for themselves. We feel that as long as parents give money to their children past the age of 18, even if that family is almost saintly in their awesomeness, there is a price. The price of power. The knowledge that the parents have that power over their son or daughter, even if they never abuse it (and who is to say whether they might subconsciously? or that the son or daughter might perceive an abuse even if there isn't one? or perhaps that the son or daughter grow to feel entitled?). The son or daughter would always know, if only in the back of their minds, that they are not making their own way, that he or she is a dependent. Those unintended consequences aside, we believe that as adults, college students should be responsible for their own finances.

 

It would do our children a disservice to step in and take away a very important part of being an adult because of good intentions and our sentimental desire not to see them struggle.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Skadi

[creekland]

Reading through this whole thread this morning out of pure curiosity, I can say that every single sentiment here is also found in ps parents in seemingly equal amounts. Homeschooling seems to not affect ones opinion on the value of college (or where, or degrees or anything else discussed here).

 

We're definite pro-college and all of my boys will be going (and looking forward to it). We'll help as we are able, but right now that isn't much. I'm glad we put the effort into getting good ACT scores... it was worth far more than any summer job my boys could have had.

 

BUT, I'll also say the world is a big place with many different opportunities out there for life paths. Some do not require college. Not all students are college bound. It works. ;)

 

I will say I feel for those who want to go to college and their parents won't help... some won't even fill out financial aid forms for the students to try to get assistance on their own.

 

I also feel for those whose parents insist on a certain school (or couple of schools) when those aren't the best fit for their particular student, esp when their reasons are not financial.

 

I'm trying to search my brain for an instance where kids were forced to go to college and didn't want to. I can think of some for cc, but not 4 year. There may be parents who are disappointed when their offspring don't go, but I can't think of any who force the issue - perhaps because the student needs to be accepted and mom/dad can't do that part - maybe in rare instances I just haven't seen happen IRL, but are out there.

 

(I'm talking from my ps experience - not anyone on here, but with as much as matched to this point, it seems logical there are folks on here who would match - pure extrapolation.)

 

Eh, just rambling and putting my thoughts down...

 

We value education and for us the minimum end is a bachelor's degree from a 4 year school. IF any of my boys were in that latter category, of course we'd reconsider, but fortunately, my guys enjoy college (or the plan for college).

[Carrie12345]

>First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Wait, which of these are you thinking of being more expensive? Obviously I don't know your background, but 20+ years out of the workforce could certainly be costing you much more than 5 college tuitions.

 

I was a sahm before we decided to homeschool. My being out of the workfoce is a completely separate issue from home education. My youngest will be 5 when my oldest starts college, and I really don't believe I would be working full time then.

 

We *do* intend to help with college and hope they all go, but it's looking like our ability to do so will be much different with #1 than #5. Such is life.

[ChristyB in TN]

I worked my way through college and medical school, and undertook considerable debt doing it. I simply can't imagine denying my kids a similar shot at a liberal arts education when their time comes, if they want one. College is the key to properity and security in the USA, and around the world. The numbers of people who can do a Bill Gates or Einstein are infinitessimal.

 

I hate that college is so expensive, but I will bust my )(%$^& to get a good college education for my kids. It's worth it, both intellectually and career-wise.

 

:iagree:Well said. I have 2 in a state university. It is not nearly as expensive as a private college. It has gotten a little less expensive since my oldest has moved into an apartment instead of university housing. I finished college late and paid for it myself. I value it, I think, because of this experience. They will finish graduate school and I will continue to work 7 days a week to pay for it. I'm at work now, as a matter of fact...

[Haiku]

Are these two *different* groups of people posting? Or are there people who believe academics for a 12yo is important enough to invest in homeschooling full time, but a four-year liberal arts degree for an 18yo is a pointless luxury they’re unwilling to support? If that's you, why do you feel that way?

 

I can only speak for myself. I think education is extremely important. I think the foundation is laid in the elementary and high school years, so I will sacrifice my time and earnings to teach my kids how to learn so they can take the knowledge and apply it to the rest of their lives. I think a college degree is important, but we can't afford to finance one (let alone three) and we don't believe that going deep into debt is wise in these financial times. My husband had an extremely expensive college education (private religious school). I had a relatively inexpensive one (community college followed by a state university). Both of us are fine, intelligent people who would have no issues getting jobs based on our education and skills (assuming there are jobs to be had, which relates back to my "these financial times" statement).

 

So, with the exception of very few careers, where maybe it really does matter where your diploma comes from, I see no reason at all to spend megabucks on a mega-mondo-redonkulously expensive college education.

 

Tara

[PeacefulChaos]

I think this is too much of an "either/or" kind of question. We can not pay for college, period. We adopted all five of our kids, and now are homeschooling...on an auto detailer's salary. It ain't happenin'!!

 

However, though we are carefully paying attention to what is going on in the world today and are concerned about the value of college (eventual income versus cost), people assume we are "anti-college" simply because we are asking the hard questions. We are not. We are simply recognizing that we currently live in a world that is quickly changing, and what was once true just might not still hold true today. Careers are disappearing, college costs have skyrocketed to a point where I think any wise person SHOULD be carefully assessing their value. There are also many ways to accrue college credit and eventually end up with a college degree that do not include jumping on the treadmill that many high schoolers find themselves on.

 

Additionally, the statistics of college drop out rates tell us that maybe...just maybe...we are unwilling as a society to acknowledge that, while it is a nice thought, many kids are going to college who simply never should have gone. There are a ton of other options out there, including those that include college or some college courses, but college is not the end all and be all. Is it necessary for some careers? Of COURSE it is. Is it necessary for every kid? No, it absolutely is not. That doesn't mean the parents aren't shooting high enough for their kids, or that the kids are incapable (although more apparently are than we want to admit, based upon those drop out rates). It simply means we are actually perhaps trying to force too many marginal kids down the college pipeline who might be far better served by career guidance that leads them to other training opportunities.

 

We homeschool not to get our kids into college, we homeschool because we want them to have an adequate education for k-12. In our case, we want those who are headed to college to be adequately prepared as well. We also want the world opened up more to our kids, for them to explore more, and to not be told by people that they are a failure if they decide college isn't the best route for them to take based upon their interests, skills, etc.

 

You know, years ago, college was never, ever thought to be for the vast majority of students as it is assumed to be for today. It was really viewed as being for the higher level students, while others would go on to trades, business ownership, etc. Today we think every student should go to college, and I guess I just disagree with that in principle, for it reflects an unwillingness to be intellectually honest about the abilities of a large number of kids who are being neglected simply because they are being told there is only one path to success. We are failing many of our young people today by trying to make them into something that is not a good fit, all because we really WANT it to be a good fit.

 

I also think, sadly, that our culture somehow equates "college degree" with happiness. We prefer that our children recognize that happiness MAY include a college degree that leads to a much desired job, but that the college degree=higher income=larger house=cooler car=happiness is something dangled before them as a carrot that might prove to be quite bitter tasting. Happiness is about far more than that. I reiterate that it can indeed include that, but we want our kids to understand the deeper meanings of happiness and not be fooled into thinking that it is assured based upon how our culture "sells" what happiness is supposed to look like. I know I am not expressing this well, but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

I hate that it is assumed that simply because a family sees more than college as a possible path for their kids that they are automatically classified as denying their kids a future. I have been accused of that here on the forums, even when I repeatedly say that we are not against college and likely have a couple headed there! Maybe, for some families, that future just has a few more options to look at that don't preclude college, but don't point to that as the ideal. And my kids deserve a solid K-12 education so they have a command of all the basics when they graduate high school, regardless of where their path leads them. Anything less is a failure. Anything more is "gravy".

 

Cindy

 

Excellent post!

[Aspasia]

I think this is too much of an "either/or" kind of question. We can not pay for college, period. We adopted all five of our kids, and now are homeschooling...on an auto detailer's salary. It ain't happenin'!!

 

However, though we are carefully paying attention to what is going on in the world today and are concerned about the value of college (eventual income versus cost), people assume we are "anti-college" simply because we are asking the hard questions. We are not. We are simply recognizing that we currently live in a world that is quickly changing, and what was once true just might not still hold true today. Careers are disappearing, college costs have skyrocketed to a point where I think any wise person SHOULD be carefully assessing their value. There are also many ways to accrue college credit and eventually end up with a college degree that do not include jumping on the treadmill that many high schoolers find themselves on.

 

Additionally, the statistics of college drop out rates tell us that maybe...just maybe...we are unwilling as a society to acknowledge that, while it is a nice thought, many kids are going to college who simply never should have gone. There are a ton of other options out there, including those that include college or some college courses, but college is not the end all and be all. Is it necessary for some careers? Of COURSE it is. Is it necessary for every kid? No, it absolutely is not. That doesn't mean the parents aren't shooting high enough for their kids, or that the kids are incapable (although more apparently are than we want to admit, based upon those drop out rates). It simply means we are actually perhaps trying to force too many marginal kids down the college pipeline who might be far better served by career guidance that leads them to other training opportunities.

 

We homeschool not to get our kids into college, we homeschool because we want them to have an adequate education for k-12. In our case, we want those who are headed to college to be adequately prepared as well. We also want the world opened up more to our kids, for them to explore more, and to not be told by people that they are a failure if they decide college isn't the best route for them to take based upon their interests, skills, etc.

 

You know, years ago, college was never, ever thought to be for the vast majority of students as it is assumed to be for today. It was really viewed as being for the higher level students, while others would go on to trades, business ownership, etc. Today we think every student should go to college, and I guess I just disagree with that in principle, for it reflects an unwillingness to be intellectually honest about the abilities of a large number of kids who are being neglected simply because they are being told there is only one path to success. We are failing many of our young people today by trying to make them into something that is not a good fit, all because we really WANT it to be a good fit.

 

I also think, sadly, that our culture somehow equates "college degree" with happiness. We prefer that our children recognize that happiness MAY include a college degree that leads to a much desired job, but that the college degree=higher income=larger house=cooler car=happiness is something dangled before them as a carrot that might prove to be quite bitter tasting. Happiness is about far more than that. I reiterate that it can indeed include that, but we want our kids to understand the deeper meanings of happiness and not be fooled into thinking that it is assured based upon how our culture "sells" what happiness is supposed to look like. I know I am not expressing this well, but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

I hate that it is assumed that simply because a family sees more than college as a possible path for their kids that they are automatically classified as denying their kids a future. I have been accused of that here on the forums, even when I repeatedly say that we are not against college and likely have a couple headed there! Maybe, for some families, that future just has a few more options to look at that don't preclude college, but don't point to that as the ideal. And my kids deserve a solid K-12 education so they have a command of all the basics when they graduate high school, regardless of where their path leads them. Anything less is a failure. Anything more is "gravy".

 

Cindy

 

I absolutely agree with this post! I don't think it is fair for us, as a society, to encourage everyone to go to college. Not only do a lot of jobs just not need the degree, but they don't compensate well enough to justify the expense. Also, as pp mentioned, a ton of kids start college and then don't finish (often because they really just shouldnt have started in the first place), and then they're saddled with debt that has given them absolutely nothing. I don't view a college degree as an investment as much as a gamble. Obviously you can improve your odds by choosing a good major and considering wisely how much money you spend, but it is still not guaranteed that it will be "worth" the money you pay for it.

 

BUT...I have to admit that, for whatever reason, dh and I still assume that our children will go. And we will encourage it (we already do). Shameful, but true.

[Trilliums]

That would be me... but I wouldn't say every college degree is a pointless luxury; however it is one I am unwilling to support.

 

First of all, there is a major price difference between homeschooling 5 children K-12 and paying for 5 children's college tuition. That would be quite the sacrifice.

 

Second, there is an age difference between K-12 and college. Our #1 goal for our future adult children is that they know how to work hard for what they want (and not to go into debt for it). Before they leave our home they will know that they are not entitled to ANYTHING except the freedom to make their own choices.

 

 

My perspective, of course, comes from my own experiences. I was given everything, not taught how to work, not directed by my parents at all. College, room & board, car & car insurance was all paid for... yet I couldn't work hard enough to put gasoline in my car. I was very immature, dependent financially & emotionally on my father, and quite pathetic. I didn't take college seriously and dropped out. My father let me know exactly how pathetic I was, and looking back.. he was right. However, I blame it on him. He raised me to be dependent.

 

I gave the car back to my dad (and stopped speaking to him for a season) and rode a bike/bus to two jobs to pay for my own very cheap apartment and I learned, at the age of 20, how to work and the value of a dollar.

 

My husband, on the other hand, was raised to work very, very hard on a dairy. They were too poor to pay for college, so my dh worked very, very hard as an adult and paid for his own college, which he took very seriously. He is confident & able. He is quite sucessful and doing what he wants in his career.

 

We both know, from experience, the value of hard work. It is the #1 value in our home. Paying for college, we believe, would be doing a great disservice to our children and deny them the most important lesson of all. Of course, I hope to prepare them well and teach them how to work and be independent before they turn 18.

 

ETA: I'm teaching my kids latin. :)

 

 

It isn't an either/or situation though. Kids can have a life requiring few sacrifices and little outside imposed hard work and still grow up to be teenagers who work hard for their educational goals, appreciate their situation and display a surprising degree of frugality.

We are willing to financially support our kids in college largely because we have already seen how willing they are to apply themselves to their work.

[justamouse]

I think this is too much of an "either/or" kind of question. We can not pay for college, period. We adopted all five of our kids, and now are homeschooling...on an auto detailer's salary. It ain't happenin'!!

 

However, though we are carefully paying attention to what is going on in the world today and are concerned about the value of college (eventual income versus cost), people assume we are "anti-college" simply because we are asking the hard questions. We are not. We are simply recognizing that we currently live in a world that is quickly changing, and what was once true just might not still hold true today. Careers are disappearing, college costs have skyrocketed to a point where I think any wise person SHOULD be carefully assessing their value. There are also many ways to accrue college credit and eventually end up with a college degree that do not include jumping on the treadmill that many high schoolers find themselves on.

 

Additionally, the statistics of college drop out rates tell us that maybe...just maybe...we are unwilling as a society to acknowledge that, while it is a nice thought, many kids are going to college who simply never should have gone. There are a ton of other options out there, including those that include college or some college courses, but college is not the end all and be all. Is it necessary for some careers? Of COURSE it is. Is it necessary for every kid? No, it absolutely is not. That doesn't mean the parents aren't shooting high enough for their kids, or that the kids are incapable (although more apparently are than we want to admit, based upon those drop out rates). It simply means we are actually perhaps trying to force too many marginal kids down the college pipeline who might be far better served by career guidance that leads them to other training opportunities.

 

We homeschool not to get our kids into college, we homeschool because we want them to have an adequate education for k-12. In our case, we want those who are headed to college to be adequately prepared as well. We also want the world opened up more to our kids, for them to explore more, and to not be told by people that they are a failure if they decide college isn't the best route for them to take based upon their interests, skills, etc.

 

You know, years ago, college was never, ever thought to be for the vast majority of students as it is assumed to be for today. It was really viewed as being for the higher level students, while others would go on to trades, business ownership, etc. Today we think every student should go to college, and I guess I just disagree with that in principle, for it reflects an unwillingness to be intellectually honest about the abilities of a large number of kids who are being neglected simply because they are being told there is only one path to success. We are failing many of our young people today by trying to make them into something that is not a good fit, all because we really WANT it to be a good fit.

I also think, sadly, that our culture somehow equates "college degree" with happiness. We prefer that our children recognize that happiness MAY include a college degree that leads to a much desired job, but that the college degree=higher income=larger house=cooler car=happiness is something dangled before them as a carrot that might prove to be quite bitter tasting. Happiness is about far more than that. I reiterate that it can indeed include that, but we want our kids to understand the deeper meanings of happiness and not be fooled into thinking that it is assured based upon how our culture "sells" what happiness is supposed to look like. I know I am not expressing this well, but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

I hate that it is assumed that simply because a family sees more than college as a possible path for their kids that they are automatically classified as denying their kids a future. I have been accused of that here on the forums, even when I repeatedly say that we are not against college and likely have a couple headed there! Maybe, for some families, that future just has a few more options to look at that don't preclude college, but don't point to that as the ideal. And my kids deserve a solid K-12 education so they have a command of all the basics when they graduate high school, regardless of where their path leads them. Anything less is a failure. Anything more is "gravy".

 

Cindy

 

The bolded part, could you expound? Because some of your word choices in there have left me a bit confused. On one hand you're saying college isn't a good fit, which I agree with, on the other hand, you're using words that prop up a college degree as harder, or better.

 

There's this kool-aide out there that says college kids are *smarter* or a degree means you're smart, so on and so forth. It's in the water we drink as John Q Public and it sneaks into our conversations and perpetuates the lie. Now, stats prove that a degree, in the long run, will give you higher earning ability (but with no job that's moot) and I think THAT is the Golden Ring we all want for our kids- we all want them to do better than we have. The road on how to get there though is different for everyone.

 

adding on for the OP

 

I DO want my kids to go to college, but not because I want them to have a good job. I want them to go for a Liberal Arts degree from a classic college so they'll grow in character and be excellent people. That will serve them in life. I'm not in it for the career. I'm raising a person, not a profession.

Edited July 28, 2012 by justamouse

[Unscripted]

I'm raising a person, not a profession

~justamouse

 

I do want my children to go to college... But when talking about it to my DH, my reasoning is somewhat all over the place. The degree is important for whatever field they are interested in, of course. More than that- I am interested in the experience as well. I loved my college experience- looking back, it was a refining time. I worked my way through- but was also very involved on campus, was a member of a sorority, etc. I accrued no debt- had a small scholarship, and made up the rest between several jobs. I learned so much about value, made decisions that weren't "fun" because of my responsibilities... But immensely enjoyed my field of study, and campus life. I would love for my two to have similar experiences.

However, my DH and I are aware that their pursuits may not require a bachelors... And that the choice to go should be calculated, not just assumed as a matter of course. A degree just doesn't seem to hold the same clout it once did- it seems to be "advanced high school" in a lot of ways. A masters degree (to me) now seems to put you ahead in a way that a Bachelors used to.

 

I just don't know. Lol! I hope to take this on a case by case basis with each child. I hope I am able to be very objective about the choice with them. There will be some form of higher learning- as the knowledge and semi-adult experience is very important to me. I am just not willing to pigeon-hole them into a one-size-fits-all-bachelors... Like justamouse said- I am raising people, not professions.

[Unscripted]

Oops. I didn't answer the financial side... We are willing to help both as much as possible, but will not devestate our own financial security in that effort. If their desires (type of university, etc) are beyond our budget then I will help them look and apply for the aid options that are available. In all likelihood, I would love if it ends up being 50-50. They achieved their 50% with scholarships, then great. If they have to work, great. But I would really want for them to have some investment in it as well.

[tristangrace]

We would refuse to pay for college for a child that wanted to get a degree in art, communication studies, psychology, Roman history etc. Their degree plan must end with a specific job. Double majoring in a fluff degree would be fine (e.g. Civil Engineering and Art).

 

 

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Is your expectation that your kids will reimburse you for the tuition you paid, and that you think investing in a "fluff" major is a bad risk?

 

FWIW, my husband had a "double fluff" major in psychology and philosophy--he's now in senior management with a major insurance company and our family of five is living comfortably on just 50% of his income.

[radiobrain]

Isn't the first 2 years of most colleges (obviously not all) now almost considered remedial? I keep hearing stories about freshmen and sophomores needing to do intro classes that are basically high school level content.

 

I think that as so many kids now go to college that wouldn't have in the past, it has changed what that degree actually means. It is sort of like high school plus, or making sure you learned what used to be standard high school content....and a higher degree is the one that starts to mean something. I find it quite sad.

 

Due to this general dumbing down, I think that the education my kids will eventually receive will be superior to many high school graduates. I plan on having mine test out of, get credit for, be creative and flexible when it comes to a bachelor's degree. I want them to have a good handle on what they might really want to do beforehand, as I won't tolerate or help pay for wishy-washy degrees. If my kid is really into philosophy, he can study that on his own time. ;) I hope to raise autodidacts. I also could care less about college in one way, as I know for a fact you can have a great life without the degree. I would prefer them to be self-made anyway.

 

So, I don't really fit. I educate for academic reasons, and plan on giving my kids the chance to do many things....one of which can be go to college. Hopefully, I can give them enough skills and knowledge that if they choose not to play that particular game...they will still be exceptionally well educated.

 

Does this make sense?:D

[PeacefulChaos]

Isn't the first 2 years of most colleges (obviously not all) now almost considered remedial? I keep hearing stories about freshmen and sophomores needing to do intro classes that are basically high school level content.

 

I think that as so many kids now go to college that wouldn't have in the past, it has changed what that degree actually means. It is sort of like high school plus, or making sure you learned what used to be standard high school content....and a higher degree is the one that starts to mean something. I find it quite sad.

 

Due to this general dumbing down, I think that the education my kids will eventually receive will be superior to many high school graduates. I plan on having mine test out of, get credit for, be creative and flexible when it comes to a bachelor's degree. I want them to have a good handle on what they might really want to do beforehand, as I won't tolerate or help pay for wishy-washy degrees. If my kid is really into philosophy, he can study that on his own time. ;) I hope to raise autodidacts. I also could care less about college in one way, as I know for a fact you can have a great life without the degree. I would prefer them to be self-made anyway.

 

So, I don't really fit. I educate for academic reasons, and plan on giving my kids the chance to do many things....one of which can be go to college. Hopefully, I can give them enough skills and knowledge that if they choose not to play that particular game...they will still be exceptionally well educated.

 

Does this make sense?:D

Yep, it makes sense. :) Its looking like that is how a lot of people feel.

[I.Dup.]

This makes a ton of sense to me, but how do you apply it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure didn't know what I wanted to do for a career when I was 18! I changed my major, I think, four times. So how are our kids supposed to know exactly what they want to do? Part of the college experience is exploring different things and learning about yourself. What if your kid does all that and two years into it (after he has completed his generals), he decides to major in theater? Does he have to pay you back for the first two years?

 

(I'm honestly asking this because dh has proposed a similar policy, but I just can't wrap my head around it.)

 

This is the exact reason I am so hesitant to encourage college too strongly. How often does it happen that a young adult of 18 years old seriously knows what they want to do for the rest of their life and how smart is it to send them off, paying tens of thousands of dollars for something they may or may not use.

 

Also, I am not aware of many people who would be able to fund all of their children's college educations and the one or two I do know of are not planning to (because it's just such a huge amount of money- a gamble, really).

[yvonne]

he's turned into someone who just does, and no longer needs that very special Ivy MBA. People look at his work and say, "I want the guy who did that." No one asks if or where his degree is from, and it certainly isn't in what he's doing these days. In fact, what he's doing these days doesn't require a degree.

 

Does your husband think he'd be where he is without his undergrad and grad education? Did all that education, and, at an Ivy, all that exposure to other highly intellectual & creative minds, make zero contribution to the way he thinks and works today? Zero? I bet that Ivy experience went a very long way into "turning him into" what he is today!

 

"I didn't need a degree to do this job" is a common refrain in hindsight, but was everything that came before the job itself truly useless, a waste of time? Or does all of that focused time and energy and thought and interaction that a person puts in as an undergrad & grad contribute to shaping the way that person thinks and works today?

 

Unless one is in a purely vocational job, I don't know if one can say, "I'd be doing exactly this job if I didn't have all that previous experience/education."

[QueenCat]

Isn't the first 2 years of most colleges (obviously not all) now almost considered remedial? I keep hearing stories about freshmen and sophomores needing to do intro classes that are basically high school level content.

 

Mine goes to an average state university. Since he lives at home, I've seen most of his books & observed much of what he does. The level is most certainly not remedial (I've only heard that about community colleges or special reading/math classes for students with probationary admission). He has had both honors program classes and regular classes. The content level is similar to what I experienced in the 1980s, in college. However, it is similar to what I experienced in a couple of high school AP classes (again, early 1980s). His upper high school classes were really at the lower college level (except for math/science, his weak areas) so he was well prepared but still challenged.

Edited July 29, 2012 by CathieC
Clarification

[Susan of Croton]

 

"I didn't need a degree to do this job" is a common refrain in hindsight, but was everything that came before the job itself truly useless, a waste of time? Or does all of that focused time and energy and thought and interaction that a person puts in as an undergrad & grad contribute to shaping the way that person thinks and works today? "QUOTE]

 

I agree. I think it was a Dickens novel (David Copperfield, perhaps?) in which the author wrote, (in paraphrase), that one's life at the outset is an unforged chain, and that we do not know in advance how circumstance will forge a history for our lives. Only by looking back can we identify golden links which made our life path possible.

 

So, it is only on looking back that you can see if your well-laid plans paid in to your life's path.

 

Classical wisdom [solon's answer to Croesus] proposes that we can only measure the worthiness of a life after we see how a life ended up. This means it is for others to measure our legacy, if any care to.

 

All this leads to the notion that an element of faith is needed, especially if a student is pursuing a field that is not obviously playing into technical (high demand) employment.

 

I would argue that, in light of how uncertain all our futures and life paths are, that because we simply cannot know how our life game will play out, that we ought to encourage our children to go for a college degree if they possibly can. As others have pointed out, aggregate statistics support the idea of such an investment. Using college research guides and career planning materials, typical salary expectations can be discovered, if desired. As hs parents, we have a duty to hold up a mirror to our children so that they can clearly self-assess for talents and tendencies. That's different from handing them a mask that we painted for them.

[PeacefulChaos]

 

"I didn't need a degree to do this job" is a common refrain in hindsight, but was everything that came before the job itself truly useless, a waste of time? Or does all of that focused time and energy and thought and interaction that a person puts in as an undergrad & grad contribute to shaping the way that person thinks and works today? "QUOTE]

 

I agree. I think it was a Dickens novel (David Copperfield, perhaps?) in which the author wrote, (in paraphrase), that one's life at the outset is an unforged chain, and that we do not know in advance how circumstance will forge a history for our lives. Only by looking back can we identify golden links which made our life path possible.

 

So, it is only on looking back that you can see if your well-laid plans paid in to your life's path.

 

Classical wisdom [solon's answer to Croesus] proposes that we can only measure the worthiness of a life after we see how a life ended up. This means it is for others to measure our legacy, if any care to.

 

All this leads to the notion that an element of faith is needed, especially if a student is pursuing a field that is not obviously playing into technical (high demand) employment.

 

I would argue that, in light of how uncertain all our futures and life paths are, that because we simply cannot know how our life game will play out, that we ought to encourage our children to go for a college degree if they possibly can. As others have pointed out, aggregate statistics support the idea of such an investment. Using college research guides and career planning materials, typical salary expectations can be discovered, if desired. As hs parents, we have a duty to hold up a mirror to our children so that they can clearly self-assess for talents and tendencies. That's different from handing them a mask that we painted for them.

 

Had I finished college (I'm so glad I didn't!) I would not be using it now. It would have been completely useless to me, a waste of time and effort.

[radiobrain]

Mine goes to an average state university. Since he lives at home, I've seen most of his books & observed much of what he does. The level is most certainly not remedial (I've only heard that about community colleges or special reading/math classes for students with probationary admission). He has had both honors program classes and regular classes. The content level is similar to what I experienced in the 1980s, in college. However, it is similar to what I experienced in a couple of high school AP classes (again, early 1980s). His upper high school classes were really at the lower college level (except for math/science, his weak areas) so he was well prepared but still challenged.

 

To play devil's advocate....is it possible that your kid isn't in those classes, as he showed proficiency? There might be a whole slew of lower level clases that you don't know about (or aren't listed that way, but are), or I am just totally wrong. Either is perfectly legitimate. I have many friends who teach at colleges and unversities and they are horrified by the level of ability kids come in with. Also, the best professors usually don't teach 1st or 2nd year classes anyway, right? ;)

[Susan of Croton]

 

Had I finished college (I'm so glad I didn't!) I would not be using it now. It would have been completely useless to me, a waste of time and effort.

 

I finished my degree used it for one year, during which I met my husband. THe rest is history; but the useless degree, in retrospect, was a golden link in my chain. I would not have found DH otherwise.

 

I think we would find common ground if I had stated things this way: if a person makes what he thinks to be the correct decision for himself at a discrete moment in time, then going back and re-agonizing over the result is sort of useless, maybe even heart-rending. For example, I don't sit around wondering whether I should have completed a degree which proved to be of such low utility; likewise, you regret nothing about deciding to leave college! That decision turned out to be your golden link.

[PeacefulChaos]

 

I finished my degree used it for one year, during which I met my husband. THe rest is history; but the useless degree, in retrospect, was a golden link in my chain. I would not have found DH otherwise.

 

I think we would find common ground if I had stated things this way: if a person makes what he thinks to be the correct decision for himself at a discrete moment in time, then going back and re-agonizing over the result is sort of useless, maybe even heart-rending. For example, I don't sit around wondering whether I should have completed a degree which proved to be of such low utility; likewise, you regret nothing about deciding to leave college! That decision turned out to be your golden link.

 

Yes, I agree. :) When I've been tempted to feel as though I wasted my money on the time that I DID go to college, I remember that I also met my DH there. :D And obviously that was my purpose for being there, and I definitely don't regret it. I've always made sure not to allow myself to regret any decisions I've made (unless it was something frivolous that I didn't follow my gut on - can we say brand new car with a huge payment that we didn't need? :lol: ) for the reasons you have stated. We definitely think alike in that respect. :)

[yvonne]

I think the value of a college degree beyond "having that piece of paper to get a job" depends a lot on what college you attend. I did about a semester's worth of my degree at a community college and the rest at a smaller, liberal arts focused university. Honestly, the work done at the CC had little educational value beyond the "piece of paper" aspect. ...But the university I attended did much more to expand my thinking and develop me academically.

 

:iagree: I wonder if the college/university we attend is the primary determinant of how valuable we consider college for our own children?

 

I was very fortunate to attend a fantastic, smaller, liberal arts college. It stretched me as a thinking person in many ways beyond what my work technically required. After graduating, I took some graduate courses at a state university (not a UC). I was shocked at the difference in quality and level between the two institutions.

 

Would I want my kids to rack up debt for the "education" they'd receive at the second sort of institution? Absolutely not. It would be such a waste.

 

Could I see them rack up a manageable level of debt to attend the first sort of institution? Yep. Absolutely. It took me a while to pay off my college debt, but it was worth every penny.

 

A good college will stretch you intellectually, and that will stay with you and shape you for a lifetime. A mediocre college will give you a piece of paper, but at least that piece of paper opens more options for you. If my only experience was with the second, mediocre institution, I'd place much less value on a college education for my own children. Since I know there's something much, much better out there, I want the same thing for my children.

 

I hope my children will be able to attend a quality college, but maybe it just won't be financially feasible. The prospect of not being able to help them enough financially is the one thing that makes me question whether we should continue to home school or whether I should go back to work to help fund their college education. I've just started looking at some of the books about small colleges that don't cost an arm and a leg but that still provide excellent educations. I hope we can find some solution to the excellent college/manageable debt problem.

 

ETA: I am not saying that all state institutions are mediocre! They definitely are not. I'm only saying that not all universities/colleges (state or private) are equal.

Edited July 29, 2012 by yvonne

[Jean in Newcastle]

:iagree: I wonder if the college/university we attend is the primary determinant of how valuable we consider college for our own children?

 

I was very fortunate to attend a fantastic, smaller, liberal arts college. It stretched me as a thinking person in many ways beyond what my work technically required. After graduating, I took some graduate courses at a state university (not a UC). I was shocked at the difference in quality and level between the two institutions.

 

Would I want my kids to rack up debt for the "education" they'd receive at the second sort of institution? Absolutely not. It would be such a waste.

 

Could I see them rack up a manageable level of debt to attend the first sort of institution? Yep. Absolutely. It took me a while to pay off my college debt, but it was worth every penny.

 

A good college will stretch you intellectually, and that will stay with you and shape you for a lifetime. A mediocre college will give you a piece of paper, but at least that piece of paper opens more options for you. If my only experience was with the second, mediocre institution, I'd place much less value on a college education for my own children. Since I know there's something much, much better out there, I want the same thing for my children.

 

I hope my children will be able to attend a quality college, but maybe it just won't be financially feasible. The prospect of not being able to help them enough financially is the one thing that makes me question whether we should continue to home school or whether I should go back to work to help fund their college education. I've just started looking at some of the books about small colleges that don't cost an arm and a leg but that still provide excellent educations. I hope we can find some solution to the excellent college/manageable debt problem.

 

I am pro liberal arts education. I am pro college too. But - with a classical education, I have been able to provide a liberal arts education at home for high school that is better than the private college prep boarding school that I went to when I was in high school. I was bored stiff in the good private university that I attended because it couldn't compare to the level of education I had in high school. The good thing is that I was able to get a lot of academic scholarships and was paid for tutoring my classes as I was taking them. I got a good degree that I needed the paper for. I also was able to get jobs outside my major simply by having a college degree. But I don't think that my kids need to have college in order to learn how to think liberally (in the liberal arts sense, not the political sense). We are definitely shooting for college but I recognize that it is a different financial landscape than when I started college 30 years ago.

[nono]

Does your husband think he'd be where he is without his undergrad and grad education? Did all that education, and, at an Ivy, all that exposure to other highly intellectual & creative minds, make zero contribution to the way he thinks and works today? Zero? I bet that Ivy experience went a very long way into "turning him into" what he is today!

 

"I didn't need a degree to do this job" is a common refrain in hindsight, but was everything that came before the job itself truly useless, a waste of time? Or does all of that focused time and energy and thought and interaction that a person puts in as an undergrad & grad contribute to shaping the way that person thinks and works today?

 

Unless one is in a purely vocational job, I don't know if one can say, "I'd be doing exactly this job if I didn't have all that previous experience/education."

 

No, none of our experience was a waste of time. But to value academia above all the other learning that came afterwards is...ridiculous.

 

A lot of people seem to have missed my point. The price he paid for his very special MBA (and I for my less special one :tongue_smilie:) was a decent to good value. Our undergraduates were a good value. At today's prices?

Probably not so much. We're quickly approaching the point where the amount of debt one has to go into v. the ROI of that college degree is not a wash at minimum. THAT'S ASTOUNDING!

 

The point of my posts was the simple fact that higher ed has actually managed to do something I never expected (and apparently a lot of others are still not expecting) and that is to turn itself from a credence good into a regular ol' good, to which the normal market forces apply.

 

And, a good 15% of Americans are self-employed or entrepreneurs. If those folks have a clear idea of what they want to do, my suggestion is simply to DO IT (sorry Nike) because they will have 4 years of earning power v. going into debt...and can go to college as they carve their way, knowing actually what they want from that education.

 

As for my dh, yeah, it's "vocational" work. He does home theater installations (drills, cable pulling, etc). I guarantee NO ONE knows he has an Ivy League MBA. Pays way better in a down economy than being a business consultant does. :D

 

In the end, that's my point. Being "married" to one idea of success is a great way to end up disappointed. We are so excited by the twists and turns that our careers have taken...mostly by still learning every day along the way. Our B.S.es were nowhere near the pinnacle of our learning or our careers. How could I work for 25 years and learn nothing? Now maybe because I was in a variety of fields with constant certifications...but still...great managers and mentors totally equalled the intellectual stimuation of my college life. And, they paid me! HA! (I swear I must have been a mercenary in all previous lives!)

 

I have even more thoughts on this, but it's so far from the OPs questions, that's I'll stop now. We've had non-stop discussions about this all weekend with our friends about this topic, and it's so interesting all the different viewpoints. The one thing my friends did agree upon about my viewpoint on this whole issue is that I can have a much more "laissez-faire" attitude about my children's post-secondary education because we provide both the contacts and financial security that most are seeking to secure from a college education. And that's something to consider...

Edited July 29, 2012 by nono

[black_midori]

nm

[Bluegoat]

I want them to have a good handle on what they might really want to do beforehand, as I won't tolerate or help pay for wishy-washy degrees. If my kid is really into philosophy, he can study that on his own time. ;) I hope to raise autodidacts.

 

You know, philosophy IMO is something that I don't think can really be self-studied very effectivly at a higher level. It doesn't need a university, but it needs an intellectual community, and in most cases today in North America I think the university is where that community is found.

 

Now, something like engineering or architecture I think would be much more amenable to self-teaching or learning through working with a mentor. It's only the created requirement for certification that means you "have" to learn it in a university. They both used to be done through on the job training and there were architects who were amateurs. I don't think philosophy has ever existed routinely apart from some sort of community experience, often in an academy or university.

 

This is why I find myself thinking that there is something very backwards about the way we understand university education.

[radiobrain]

You know, philosophy IMO is something that I don't think can really be self-studied very effectivly at a higher level. It doesn't need a university, but it needs an intellectual community, and in most cases today in North America I think the university is where that community is found.

 

Now, something like engineering or architecture I think would be much more amenable to self-teaching or learning through working with a mentor. It's only the created requirement for certification that means you "have" to learn it in a university. They both used to be done through on the job training and there were architects who were amateurs. I don't think philosophy has ever existed routinely apart from some sort of community experience, often in an academy or university.

 

This is why I find myself thinking that there is something very backwards about the way we understand university education.

 

I just picked that out of a hat out of many that I would consider difficult to get a job in a field with that degree. All the people who I know with philosopy degrees are doing something totally different. One owns a company that fabricates museum installations, another teaches 7th grade English. I could have picked something else...it doesn't really matter what....my point was somewhat nebulous...

[Soror]

Now, something like engineering or architecture I think would be much more amenable to self-teaching or learning through working with a mentor. It's only the created requirement for certification that means you "have" to learn it in a university. They both used to be done through on the job training and there were architects who were amateurs. I don't think philosophy has ever existed routinely apart from some sort of community experience, often in an academy or university.

 

My dh has no degree but does engineering work at his job. He has had no training but works circles around those who are the official engineers with degrees. It is all through self-study and just hard work. They've had several projects that he has had the lead(the engineers themselves defer to him as to what needs to be done and how to do it) and he has figured out things the corporate engineers at the headquarters of the trans-national corporation couldn't figure out. Ds seems to be showing a similar aptitude and feel torn on this as I don't think college is necessarily the best place to learn the practical skills but for the job market I don't know what is the best choice. I find it ridiculous that actual aptitude, ability, intelligence etc is often ignored these days over that "piece of paper."

 

I think in some fields it would be near impossible to self study but I think we've elevated college well beyond what it actually is.

[bobbeym]

Because it is my responsibility to prepare my children for adulthood. Once they become adults, they are responsible for their own financial and educational responsibilities.

 

Overall, :iagree: with this.

 

My oldest starts college in a few weeks. He is attending a CC to get his combo welding certificate, followed by another year of CC to finish his welding degree. For that, DH and I are paying for it. His ultimate goal is to get a degree in graphic media, web design, etc. but the market is already over saturated with unemployed adults with those degrees and I refuse to put us in debt, or to allow himself to do so, with student loans. He has the contacts and skills needed to launch himself into a graphics career without a degree, and even recently had an offer of a potential internship, which he himself neglected to follow-up on and has thus lost out on the opportunity. All the more reason for me to stand by my decision to not pay for something I can't afford in the first place.

 

My rising 9th grader wants to go into some kind of ministry/music field. At this point, I honestly don't see a university in his future just because of how he is at this point in his life. :willy_nilly: Maybe he'll mature over the years and surprise us all by turning into someone completely different, but right now our goal is to teach him enough to survive on his own in the world without a college education.

 

I should mention that while academics do play a role in our reason for homeschooling, it's only as an after-the-fact in that we learned just how much he *wasn't* learning in ps once he was at home. Our reasons for homeschooling were actually due to attitude/behavioral problems that were aggravated by the ps system.

[brendag]

I want my kids to be happy with whatever path they choose and I feel like we need to get them prepared for whatever they choose. I am definitely not impressed with college in general, even though I have my BA and dh has his BS and MBA, but for some careers you just have to have it.

 

One of our good friends managed the entire IT department for a group of luxury resorts after working his way up for 15 years with only a high school diploma. The problem was that when he wanted to leave that company, he spent almost 2 years looking. He kept hearing that it was company policy that applicants for the position he was looking for required at least a bachelors degree...his application wasn't making it past Human Resources even though he was qualified in every other way. He is only a couple of months away from getting his BS, but that was enough to get him an interview and another job. :)

 

I'm an idealist by nature and hate the fact that sometimes you just have to "play the game". :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA - college served my husband and I well, but the price of that degree is high. I used to think Ivies were the way to go, but now I'm thinking small, but reputable colleges where students are still taught by the high priced professors rather than grad students (no offense intended), would be better. Of course I recently read "Killing the "Spirit" and that was just downright depressing, but true in so many ways.

 

Brenda

Edited July 30, 2012 by brendag