Question for moms with children that have Asperger's

[4kids4me]

My 6yo son came out of church yesterday with marker all over the front and back of his shirt and on his pants. When I talked to the teacher she said the other boy had Apperger's. I'm just wondering if that's normal for a child with Asperger's. We know one boy with Asperger's and I can't see him doing that.

 

I'll rephrase the question (but leave my original thoughts in there as posters have responded to it): Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Asperger's drew with marker all over another child?

Edited February 6, 2012 by 4kids4me

[DawnM]

There is no "normal" when it comes to a child with Asperger's. Every child has different issues. There are some over-riding similarities but each will be very different.

 

Dawn

[Joyofsixreboot]

There is no "normal" when it comes to a child with Asperger's. Every child has different issues. There are some over-riding similarities but each will be very different.

 

Dawn

 

:iagree:

[4kids4me]

Let me rephrase:

 

Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Aperger's drew all over another boy?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I could see either of mine doing that, but because they're kids, not just special needs.

 

I assume you're saying that the teacher didn't do anything about it because of the asperger's?

[Carrie12345]

Let me rephrase:

 

Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Aperger's drew all over another boy?

 

Hm.

It would surprise me that an adult would allow a 6yo boy to draw all over another boy.

 

My "NT" kids have drawn on each other, so I view the behavior as kids being stupid.

[clarkacademy]

I would consider it normal from them but....I would not consider a teacher using it as an exuse for the behavior or allowing it. I would also ask my 6 year old why the heck did he sit for that and again I would question the teacher, where were you for this to happen? I have a kid with high functioning autism and another with ADHD and tourettes so I have seen ALOT of things in my parent life, and I think it is kind of a blame all situation.

 

The special needs child should have been monitored more closely, the six year old who had it done to him should have yelled out or moved away told the teacher or something and giving exuses for a bad action is a road you don't want to go down. I have actually met autistic kids while I was teaching who would say I can do such and such because I am autistic.

[pdalley]

I would consider it normal from them but....I would not consider a teacher using it as an exuse for the behavior or allowing it. I would also ask my 6 year old why the heck did he sit for that and again I would question the teacher, where were you for this to happen? I have a kid with high functioning autism and another with ADHD and tourettes so I have seen ALOT of things in my parent life, and I think it is kind of a blame all situation.

 

The special needs child should have been monitored more closely, the six year old who had it done to him should have yelled out or moved away told the teacher or something and giving exuses for a bad action is a road you don't want to go down. I have actually met autistic kids while I was teaching who would say I can do such and such because I am autistic.

 

None of my three would have been permitted to get away with that at six or any other time. The Aspergers has nothing to do with it unless the teacher is using it as an excuse not to stop the child from doing it.

 

We have repeatedly told our boys that their 'issues' are not worse than any one elses - they are different. Everyone has challenges. They have a responsibility to make sure their challenges don't affect others in a negative way - just like anyone else.

 

The teacher was not in control of the class. If she felt funny about correcting the child with Aspergers she should not have allowed the parents to leave him in there or called for assistance. As a parent I would have been mortified and offered to replace the clothes and apologize. I also would not trust my child with that teacher again.

[4kids4me]

I'm trying to tread lightly because I really don't want to offend...

 

My friend's son (16yo) has Asperger's. I've known them for about 6 years and have watched her parent. IMO she's done an excellent job parenting all her children. With her 16yo, she's definitely set boundaries and limitations and has taught him what is and is not acceptable. I understand ALL our children are works in progress!

 

I'm newer in this church so I don't recognize who this little boy or his parents. I recall once, two months ago, my ds telling me, "That's ___," after the service. The parents were engaged in a conversation and the boy was all over the place. This can happen to anyone, though!!!

 

My son has complained about this boy from the beginning (5 months we've been there). The boy has stepped on his hand (ok, it could be an accident), ruined his colouring (for instance, twice yesterday he drew on son's picture, and he was given new ones, then he was drawn on), etc, etc. For all this time I've encouraged son to tell the boy to do the right thing, to not sit beside him, to ask the teacher for help. I figured it was regular kid stuff...maybe the parent was just one that had loose boundaries.

 

Finally I spoke to the teacher yesterday and the response was just, "He has Asperger's. I guess we need an adult helper with him instead of a teen helper."

 

So as we move forward I want to be gracious and loving. I want my son to understand why this boy seems different than other kids and how to extend kindness. I'm hoping by having an adult in the class it'll be a help.

 

(and here's where I'm treading lightly)

 

But...

 

I also need to ensure that my child has a positive experience in church, too. It seems every week he's belly-aching before going into church complaining about this boy and all the things he's doing to my son. So without actually having seen the boy's behaviour myself, I'm trying to figure out if he's acting out because he's got Asperger's or if it's a combination of that and loose parenting boundaries. So I care about not hurting this boy and/or his parents, but I also care about my son.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I would find it strange that the teacher was not able to put a stop to that behavior before it got out of hand. I can't see either my aspie son or my other son behaving like that in Sunday school, though. They would know better that they would get in trouble with mom. Even at age 6. I can see MAYBE if the kid is also ADHD, or has some other impulse control problem, that he would do something like that, but not that the teacher would allow it.

[4kids4me]

I would consider it normal from them but....I would not consider a teacher using it as an exuse for the behavior or allowing it. I would also ask my 6 year old why the heck did he sit for that and again I would question the teacher, where were you for this to happen? I have a kid with high functioning autism and another with ADHD and tourettes so I have seen ALOT of things in my parent life, and I think it is kind of a blame all situation.

 

The special needs child should have been monitored more closely, the six year old who had it done to him should have yelled out or moved away told the teacher or something and giving exuses for a bad action is a road you don't want to go down. I have actually met autistic kids while I was teaching who would say I can do such and such because I am autistic.

 

Son said he told the teen helper (the helper had been aware that the other child had ruined son's colouring twice that day). When I spoke to the teacher she said she had been told the boy wrote on someone but assumed it was a little marker on the hand, not on the front and back of his shirt. I hadn't realized this boy had Asperger's before yesterday and I had been encouraging my son to be a good friend, be patient, etc. It's not like him to make a scene. (My other son, otoh, would have completely retaliated!!!)

[4kids4me]

For those that have shared their experiences, this is incredibly helpful and you've answered my questions. This is how my friend would have reacted to her son who's got Asperger's. Just trying to figure out if it's a parenting issue...and obviously the staff weren't in control.

 

The funny thing is, they've had two Sundays where they focused on autism and asperger's, explaining it to the children, etc...and the kids came home with handouts and we were encouraged to go over the handouts with them. It was basically an awareness class. I'm not sure how many kids in the class have autism and/or asperger's. (It's a large group of kids gr. 1-5.)

 

My two younger kids have said how "bad" the kids are in general. Let me preface that by saying we came from a VERY small church with a VERY large teacher to student ratio. Plus we had firm expectations for our children's behaviour in church. Coming to a HUGE group that's in a gym lends itself naturally to a much more varied parenting style and a different way of handling the children, some who have special needs.

 

Having said that, if they know there are children with special needs and they're not staffing accordingly but are putting expectations on the children themselves to manage it, that's not ok.

[Night Elf]

I also need to ensure that my child has a positive experience in church, too. It seems every week he's belly-aching before going into church complaining about this boy and all the things he's doing to my son. So without actually having seen the boy's behaviour myself, I'm trying to figure out if he's acting out because he's got Asperger's or if it's a combination of that and loose parenting boundaries. So I care about not hurting this boy and/or his parents, but I also care about my son.

 

You and your son have every right to expect that. I would never expect that my son with Aspergers had the right to get away with bad behavior just because he has special needs. IMHO, if that child is having that difficult of a time being around other children, the church needs to step in and help the parents make a better decision. The teacher may truly have no idea how to handle it. I would let the teacher know that my child's experience is being very colored by this behavior which could in fact be considered bullying to a certain degree. One child should not be afraid of another child. Is there another class your son could join?

 

Before my son got the AS diagnosis, the only Aspie we had ever met was a child who knocked kids down and pummeled them with his hands. The mom said the boy was just trying to play. Um.. no. Needless to say, when my son was diagnosed, I totally objected because my impression of Aspergers was a child who had violent tendencies. I've never met another Aspie who acted like that, thank goodness!

[4kids4me]

You and your son have every right to expect that. I would never expect that my son with Aspergers had the right to get away with bad behavior just because he has special needs. IMHO, if that child is having that difficult of a time being around other children, the church needs to step in and help the parents make a better decision. The teacher may truly have no idea how to handle it. I would let the teacher know that my child's experience is being very colored by this behavior which could in fact be considered bullying to a certain degree. One child should not be afraid of another child. Is there another class your son could join?

 

Before my son got the AS diagnosis, the only Aspie we had ever met was a child who knocked kids down and pummeled them with his hands. The mom said the boy was just trying to play. Um.. no. Needless to say, when my son was diagnosed, I totally objected because my impression of Aspergers was a child who had violent tendencies. I've never met another Aspie who acted like that, thank goodness!

 

Thanks for the response. I think what I'll do is just be a little more on top of it. I can check in on them during the service to see how the boys are interacting and see if there is proper supervision. There isn't any other class he can move to. All the kids are in the gym area and then they're broken up by grade (I think!). I could double check on that. Going forward I'll be dialoguing more with the children's pastor to see exactly what their take is on it. The other SS adult teacher I was talking to seemed to use Asperger's as a reason for his behaviour, so I'm not sure if their belief system is that nothing can be done. Thanks!!!

[pdalley]

You and your son have every right to expect that. I would never expect that my son with Aspergers had the right to get away with bad behavior just because he has special needs. IMHO, if that child is having that difficult of a time being around other children, the church needs to step in and help the parents make a better decision. The teacher may truly have no idea how to handle it. I would let the teacher know that my child's experience is being very colored by this behavior which could in fact be considered bullying to a certain degree. One child should not be afraid of another child. Is there another class your son could join?

 

Before my son got the AS diagnosis, the only Aspie we had ever met was a child who knocked kids down and pummeled them with his hands. The mom said the boy was just trying to play. Um.. no. Needless to say, when my son was diagnosed, I totally objected because my impression of Aspergers was a child who had violent tendencies. I've never met another Aspie who acted like that, thank goodness!

 

:iagree:I would be horrified if my kids caused another kid to miss out on an experience. The church does need to step up here. They are not doing the child with the issues or the parents any favors by letting this type of behavior continue. My kids are so rule bound that habits that get grained in are nearly impossible to get rid of. So we do a lot of 'nip it in the bud' around here. I've been vocal before about others letting a behavior slide. We can't tolerate it. It hurts the child in the long run. If he grows up and draws on people then he's not going to be employable, right? :)

[clarkacademy]

Son said he told the teen helper (the helper had been aware that the other child had ruined son's colouring twice that day). When I spoke to the teacher she said she had been told the boy wrote on someone but assumed it was a little marker on the hand, not on the front and back of his shirt. I hadn't realized this boy had Asperger's before yesterday and I had been encouraging my son to be a good friend, be patient, etc. It's not like him to make a scene. (My other son, otoh, would have completely retaliated!!!)

 

I just want you to know even having two with needs I do not believe it was right at all. I would be very ashamed of my child if he did this. I would also question why he is not monitored a bit better in the class. I understand your boy doesn't want to make a scene but please, tell him when ANYONE child or adult is doing something to him that he does not want done he needs to speak up.

 

Children with these needs will catch on when peers act on things they learn alot like this. Not too mention your little guy needs a voice he really needs to stand up and say NO!

[Slipper]

My oldest daughter is severely affected by autism and has limited comprehension. My standard rule is that if she does not behave (whether she can help it or not), I need to remove her from wherever she is at.

 

For example, she makes noises - hums, moans, laughs at odd times, etc. If we happen to be at church and she makes a noise, most people startle, but smile indulgently when they see it's her. If she continued, out we go. People are understanding, but there is a limit.

 

For instance, if you saw one mark on your son and it was explained that a little boy with a disability did it and didn't realize he shouldn't, you wouldn't even be posting - it would be a non-issue. The problem is that the little boy was allowed to continue with unacceptable behavior. Someone should have intervened (an adult).

 

I don't think you are being unreasonable. I would be annoyed if it happened to my girls. I would further be annoyed if an adult caring for my oldest had allowed my daughter to behave in such a fashion.

[Laurie]

Thanks for the response. I think what I'll do is just be a little more on top of it. I can check in on them during the service to see how the boys are interacting and see if there is proper supervision. There isn't any other class he can move to. All the kids are in the gym area and then they're broken up by grade (I think!). I could double check on that. Going forward I'll be dialoguing more with the children's pastor to see exactly what their take is on it. The other SS adult teacher I was talking to seemed to use Asperger's as a reason for his behaviour, so I'm not sure if their belief system is that nothing can be done. Thanks!!!

 

Do the kids all have their classes in the gym? If so, I can see how that could overstimulate some kids with the resulting poor behavior.

 

I've been a young religious ed. teacher (volunteer), a kindergarten teacher (employed) , and the mom of two kids on the autism spectrum (including one with Asperger syndrome). And I would also be upset by what's going on in your son's class. I think you're right to go to someone who is a paid employee of the church...to me, this isn't a situation that volunteer teachers and teen helpers should have to deal with alone.

[Cindyz]

I agree that the child should have more direct supervision. Whenever my son and I are in social situations, I consider it my job to help to educate him on behaviors that are and aren't acceptable and to guide him through the experience. At 5, 6 and even at 7 he still needs quite a bit of redirection and guidance.

 

My first reaction when hearing of your son's experiences is that these are the types of things my son would do if he was trying to get your son's attention or be his friend. He wouldn't do these things in a mean, destructive way, but in a come play with me, silly sort of way. The more another child ignores my son or doesn't want to be his friend, the more silly things my son does to try to get his attention. Part of being a child with asperger's is that they often don't know how to approach other children, they have problems joining in with the group, and can't read when someone else isn't liking the things they are doing. So keep in mind that while the things you are describing (drawing on your son, coloring on his paper, etc) could seem like mean, destructive behaviors, they may also be silly, attention seeking behaviors with no malintent.

[LucyStoner]

It would surprise me that an adult would allow a 6yo boy to draw all over another boy.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[justasque]

Personally, I'd want to stay the whole time with the boys next Sunday, to get a sense of how things are. Then, I'd open a brainstorming dialog with the powers-that-be. How can you be welcoming to this child and his family without putting other kids in a situation that is not good for them? The idea of having an aide specifically to shadow the special needs kid is a sensible one; it will be helpful to that boy, the other kids, and the teacher. It may not be the ultimate solution, but it's a somewhat tried-and-true approach that would probably be what I'd advocate for initially. Observing the class will also help you get to know the boy, so you can give more targeted suggestions to your son as to how to handle the situation.

 

I would NOT just pop in now and again - it would be worth it to me to get the whole picture up-front, even if it meant missing the service that week, so I could be more fully informed both when brainstorming solutions and when helping my own child learn how to handle things.

[4kids4me]

Do the kids all have their classes in the gym? If so, I can see how that could overstimulate some kids with the resulting poor behavior.

 

I've been a young religious ed. teacher (volunteer), a kindergarten teacher (employed) , and the mom of two kids on the autism spectrum (including one with Asperger syndrome). And I would also be upset by what's going on in your son's class. I think you're right to go to someone who is a paid employee of the church...to me, this isn't a situation that volunteer teachers and teen helpers should have to deal with alone.

 

Clarkacademy, Slipper, and Laurie,

 

Thanks so much! I can completely see that the environment is overstimulating...yes, everyone is in the gym and it's a LARGE group.

 

I was talking to my 9yo who's the in same class and she says at times the teachers do nothing to restrain the little boy. For instance, when everyone is sitting in a large group being taught, the little boy is allowed to run around. Dd says it's not fair to the whole group because it's very disruptive. She's actually had a bit of a hard time adjusting to the looser boundaries the teachers allow at this church.

 

Otoh, my nature is a "doer, a jumper!" I tend to jump on stuff without getting the whole story. *I* need to learn grace! I talked to dh about it (he's more of a disciplinarian than me) and he said it's not that big of a deal. So I'll take that into account and NOT make a big deal of it BUT be more proactive. I need to stay for a whole class (bad mama, I know) and observe how the kids are and how the teachers and helpers react to it. I really want to be gracious to the little boy and his parents as I've not walked their road...but of course be fair to all kids in the class.

[4kids4me]

Personally, I'd want to stay the whole time with the boys next Sunday, to get a sense of how things are. Then, I'd open a brainstorming dialog with the powers-that-be. How can you be welcoming to this child and his family without putting other kids in a situation that is not good for them? The idea of having an aide specifically to shadow the special needs kid is a sensible one; it will be helpful to that boy, the other kids, and the teacher. It may not be the ultimate solution, but it's a somewhat tried-and-true approach that would probably be what I'd advocate for initially. Observing the class will also help you get to know the boy, so you can give more targeted suggestions to your son as to how to handle the situation.

 

I would NOT just pop in now and again - it would be worth it to me to get the whole picture up-front, even if it meant missing the service that week, so I could be more fully informed both when brainstorming solutions and when helping my own child learn how to handle things.

 

LOL, you must have posted this as I was typing my response. ITA with you!

 

Our church does advertise that they have a special program for kids with special needs - - a one-on-one shadow, helping them integrate. Seems to me this is missing. I mentioned below that the kids had two weeks of learning about kids with autism/asperger's. What seems to maybe be missing is the other side of it...what they expect kids without that to "take."

Being coloured on isn't acceptable. So I'll definitely be observing next Sunday!

[QueenCat]

Let me rephrase:

 

Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Aperger's drew all over another boy?

 

Yes.... and this comes from a mom to a child who is diagnosed as having moderate Aspergers, and knows many children with Aspergers. The only way my child would have done that is if another child told him he needed to, and gave him a plausible reason. It is very difficult for a child with Aspergers to understand that people will lie to you or get you to do things for the purpose of getting you in trouble.

[QueenCat]

I was talking to my 9yo who's the in same class and she says at times the teachers do nothing to restrain the little boy. For instance, when everyone is sitting in a large group being taught, the little boy is allowed to run around. Dd says it's not fair to the whole group because it's very disruptive. She's actually had a bit of a hard time adjusting to the looser boundaries the teachers allow at this church.

 

 

Restraining a child with Aspergers can be counterproductive. Especially if you are talking about someone physically restraining him. Teafching my child WHERE to pace, rather than NOT to pace was better for him & everywhere else. By 2nd grade (public school, pre-homeschooling), he was able to pace in the back of the classroom, behind the students, rather than in front of them, thus less distracting. This was a regular classroom. The children do get to the point where they don't notice, per what teachers told me back then. He was still participating, as he heard every word said, and responded appropriately when necessary. By 5th grade, he only paced 5-10 minutes in a one hour class, and not necessarily all day. Pacing calms children with Aspergers, it is a NEED, not a want.

[QueenCat]

You and your son have every right to expect that. I would never expect that my son with Aspergers had the right to get away with bad behavior just because he has special needs. IMHO, if that child is having that difficult of a time being around other children, the church needs to step in and help the parents make a better decision. The teacher may truly have no idea how to handle it. I would let the teacher know that my child's experience is being very colored by this behavior which could in fact be considered bullying to a certain degree. One child should not be afraid of another child. Is there another class your son could join?

 

Before my son got the AS diagnosis, the only Aspie we had ever met was a child who knocked kids down and pummeled them with his hands. The mom said the boy was just trying to play. Um.. no. Needless to say, when my son was diagnosed, I totally objected because my impression of Aspergers was a child who had violent tendencies. I've never met another Aspie who acted like that, thank goodness!

 

Well said.... of the many children I know with Apsergers, only one was physical. I've known a few parents to use it as an excuse for bad behavior, which makes people who don't know think that Apsergers is something it is not.... I've never allowed my son's diagnosis to be an excuse for willfully bad behavior.

[gardenmom5]

My 6yo son came out of church yesterday with marker all over the front and back of his shirt and on his pants. When I talked to the teacher she said the other boy had Apperger's. I'm just wondering if that's normal for a child with Asperger's. We know one boy with Asperger's and I can't see him doing that.

 

I'll rephrase the question (but leave my original thoughts in there as posters have responded to it): Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Asperger's drew with marker all over another child?

 

for a child with aspergers? no.

 

for my own son with aspergers, yes. However, he will color on himself with marker. fortunately, not his clothes.

[Dobela]

Yes.... and this comes from a mom to a child who is diagnosed as having moderate Aspergers, and knows many children with Aspergers. The only way my child would have done that is if another child told him he needed to, and gave him a plausible reason. It is very difficult for a child with Aspergers to understand that people will lie to you or get you to do things for the purpose of getting you in trouble.

My adult brother has aspergers and this scenario happened to him often as a child. The other kids would put him up to something, he would do it and get into trouble but not really understand why. He just didn't (doesn't) have the filter to discern situations like this.

 

My brother is also a kid that would have colored all over someone. He would have done it as an attention getting behavior - as in hey, I like you, and I want to be your friend. Soyou can see how much I like you I am going to keep writing on you so you will keep noticing me. That being said, my parents would have been mortified if my brother did that. He would be punished in some way and they would have cleaned the clothes or paid for new ones. It would not have been acceptable or excuseable behavior at all.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

There is no "normal" when it comes to a child with Asperger's. Every child has different issues. There are some over-riding similarities but each will be very different.

 

Dawn

:iagree: totally agree---no it wouldn't surprise me....but just because they did it doesn't mean they have asperger's to turn it around another way

[Rebecca VA]

Did you mention this incident to the child's parents? I wonder if the teacher is afraid to mention it herself because the parents refuse the discipline the child and get offended if someone else tries to discipline him.

[gardenmom5]

I also need to ensure that my child has a positive experience in church, too. It seems every week he's belly-aching before going into church complaining about this boy and all the things he's doing to my son. So without actually having seen the boy's behaviour myself, I'm trying to figure out if he's acting out because he's got Asperger's or if it's a combination of that and loose parenting boundaries. So I care about not hurting this boy and/or his parents, but I also care about my son.

 

I doubt his parents would have allowed him to draw all over someone else if they'd known. I don't know if the parents boundaries are loose, or they do like I do - I pick my battles (re: areas to work on) with him. to outsiders (re: people who have never done anything with him) -I have been accused of being "lax", and told he just "needs to be disciplined". Those who have. actually. worked. with. my son have commented how great a job they think I'm doing, and they really admire me.

 

The bigger problem sounds like the teacher is not redirecting (and with only one teacher over several children, that can be overwhelming) - he needs someone to monitor him and redirect when needed. This teacher isn't doing it. After a change with my son's church teachers (there are two for seven children, including one with ADHD) they are now working on getting him an aide specifically for my son - in addition to the two classroom teachers. (eta: my son easily gets overwhelmed by sound, and will run off.)

Edited February 6, 2012 by gardenmom5

[myfunnybunch]

Let me rephrase:

 

Would it surprise you if a 6yo boy with Aperger's drew all over another boy?

 

The simple answer is no, it would not surprise me. Children with AS often don't understand what behaviors are socially appropriate and what behaviors are not.

 

It would surprise me that he was allowed to draw on another child, and it would surprise me that his disability was used to excuse the behavior. Perhaps the teacher didn't quite know how to handle the situation and was hoping that knowing the other child has a disability might help your understanding of the situation. I'd ask the teacher (nicely) if the teacher and his parents have a plan in place to help this child manage himself and to keep this from happening in the future.

 

Cat

[gardenmom5]

the only Aspie we had ever met was a child who knocked kids down and pummeled them with his hands. The mom said the boy was just trying to play. Um.. no. Needless to say, when my son was diagnosed, I totally objected because my impression of Aspergers was a child who had violent tendencies. I've never met another Aspie who acted like that, thank goodness!

 

actually, the child probably did think he was playing. aggressive play is only one reason social skills therapy is very commonly recommended for aspies. My son is aggressive if he eats nitrates. Before I knew that, I always had to supervise him playing with other children to redirect him to appropriate behavior. my friend has child who was very aggressive when young. (and - I saw the whole thing - another child walked up to him and shoved him down, he bounced up, thought what a great game and shoved that child back. other child promptly started wailing. none of the other adults who saw the whole thing were particularly sympathetic to the NT child who shoved first.)

[chiguirre]

Our church does advertise that they have a special program for kids with special needs - - a one-on-one shadow, helping them integrate.

 

To be honest, if a church advertises that they have a sn program with 1:1 aides, the parents of this boy probably believe they can count on the program to deal with him. They may not know that the church doesn't actually have any idea what it's doing and is letting their kid run wild picking up all sorts of bad habits that will negatively impact his future. If I was in their shoes, I'd be church shopping immediately.

 

The more I think about this, the more it ticks me off. Your church shouldn't be offering a "special program for kids with special needs" unless they have someone who actually can provide a safe, nuturing environment for kids with sn. Sticking an aspie in a noisy gym full of kids and expecting them to handle the sensory overload with only a diffident teenager as a shadow is a recipe for disaster. His parents should have interviewed the Sunday school staff better, but this church has no business saying that it's special needs friendly.

[4kids4me]

I'll keep you ladies posted on what happens...I'll resurrect the thread after church on Sunday. I'm going in with open eyes, knowing full well my son could be as much as an issue as the other child! Hopefully I can be part of the solution, not the problem. As with lots of ministries, most likely they don't have enough volunteers to keep up with the demand. I know the volunteers want to serve and love each child and their family, but sometimes it's too much.

 

The church is so new to me I hardly know anyone, so talking with the boys parents probably wouldn't be wise. I think I need to observe at least one Sunday and see what's going on.

 

You've all be so helpful...really! I've learned lots and feel better prepared for Sunday!

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

i've been in parish ministry for most of my life now...

 

random thoughts:

- the teacher is likely a volunteer who has had little to no training.

 

- if there is a "paid accountable ministry staff" person in charge of children's education, then i'd make an appointment to see them, and say to them all of what you've said to us (you're new, you want your son to enjoy sunday school, the marker incident was distressing, you want to show grace, you need to know there are appropriate boundaries, you don't want to make a fuss, you don't want your son to be covered in marker....).

 

- if there isn't a "paid accountable ministry staff" person, then i'd make an appointment to see the clergy, and tell them all you've told us.

 

- most church staff are like most everyone else these days, trying to do a good job with way too much to do and way too little time to do it in. but most of them would want to know, and help you find a solution, esp. since you are new.

 

blessings,

ann

[4kids4me]

Thanks so much, Ann! ;)

[4kids4me]

Update:

 

I was able to observe yesterday. I'm not sure I got a true sense of what's going on as two things were different: the little boy kept to himself and didn't interact with my son and they had a guest speaker.

 

However...

 

Other than the first 15 minutes where they could play (they're in a gym), there was a LOT of sitting. They got together in a group and stood to sing one song. I could see a lack of supervision in that three boys started to fool around and none of the 10 leaders said anything to break it up before it escalated. That, to me, is a lack of supervision. Then they sat for prayer, sat for the sspeaker, sat for the video, and sat for the group talk. They then broke up into age groups...and sat more. Each group was on one mat and the leader of the group read a story (with no pictures) and asked questions. This did not engage the more energetic little boys. Each group did one "interesting" thing which was I think (I was too far away to hear) put a verse in order (they had pieces of paper with words on it). Then it was time to go home.

 

So as far as my son's "disobedience" (meaning not obeying our rule to sit and listen respectfully)...well, I can see how it would be terribly hard for him to do that when there's so much sitting and so little engagement (as a whole, and a lack of recognizing they're losing their audience and attempting to re-engage). It could have been something as little as saying, "Every time you hear Daniel's name, stand up and sit down quickly and quietly."

 

There are five groups. Three groups have kids old enough that the lesson was engaging. What I think they should do is put those three groups in one gym and the two younger groups in the other gym. Then they can do a similar lesson with the younger kids, but do it so they can move around.

 

Or they need to set up tables and chairs. Sitting/lying on one mat was too hard for the boys in the SK group and the gr. 1 group. The girls were fine.

 

Finally, the leaders aren't overly pro-active in ensuring the kids are sitting listening. It seems that they're not noticing the first signs of boredom and only deal with problems after they've escalated.

 

I'm not sure how to tell the woman that runs the program that these are my observations. Not sure if I should go again and see if the dynamics are different. Maybe they sat so long because of the special speaker. Maybe they really do have more movement in the lessons. She hasn't asked my opinion but on the other hand I do need to ensure that things like kids getting marker all over them isn't happening. So I'm not sure how to deal with it without sounding like a nag.

 

Edited to add updated email convo:

 

I decided to respond to an earlier email to the director, thanking her for welcoming me into the class yesterday. I didn't say anything else, hoping that maybe she'd bite and ask for my observations. Her response is a hearty you're welcome followed by letting her know if there are instructions they should be giving my child during lesson time.

 

So that didn't help. lol Any advice on how to proceed with the dialogue would be appreciated. :) (I can be too blunt and harsh and am working on being diplomatic and grace-filled!!!)

Edited February 13, 2012 by 4kids4me

[4kids4me]

bumping to get a response...hopefully!!!! :)

[Mom22ns]

For instance, if you saw one mark on your son and it was explained that a little boy with a disability did it and didn't realize he shouldn't, you wouldn't even be posting - it would be a non-issue. The problem is that the little boy was allowed to continue with unacceptable behavior. Someone should have intervened (an adult).

 

 

My oldest is on the autistic spectrum too. While I have met many AS kids and some of them might have tried this, the solution is the adults. It was their responsibility to stop him as soon as it happened. If he is messing up other children's work, they should move him a seat away, with an adult in between. There is no excuse for allowing any child to harm another, including his work, his work, his clothes, his person or anything else. The first impulse might have been unforeseen and hard to stop, but there is no reason for it to have been allowed to continue.

[4kids4me]

My oldest is on the autistic spectrum too. While I have met many AS kids and some of them might have tried this, the solution is the adults. It was their responsibility to stop him as soon as it happened. If he is messing up other children's work, they should move him a seat away, with an adult in between. There is no excuse for allowing any child to harm another, including his work, his work, his clothes, his person or anything else. The first impulse might have been unforeseen and hard to stop, but there is no reason for it to have been allowed to continue.

 

I agree. I counted 16 marks...that's quite a lot. It also makes me wonder why ds didn't move away. He said, "There were chairs everywhere! There was no where to go!" Who knows.

 

That week they had left the gym to go to a separate classroom where they were colouring at a table. The idea of them sitting at a table is GREAT (better than a mat), but they need better supervision.

Edited February 13, 2012 by 4kids4me

[myfunnybunch]

Any advice on how to proceed with the dialogue would be appreciated. :) (I can be too blunt and harsh and am working on being diplomatic and grace-filled!!!)

 

I'm unclear about the purpose of the observation period. I think the approach depends on your goal.

 

Was it to see if your son was behaving? If he didn't behave, I'd address it with him and ask the teacher if the session was typical, and *maybe* offer some suggestions that might work for him. (Ex: "I've noticed that he responds to intervention well if it happens the moment he starts being silly.") If he behaved within reasonable child-appropriate limits, then I'd let it go.

 

Was it to observe the other child? If he didn't behave himself and it affected your child directly, then you might ask them about some kind of support for the other child and ideas to help your child avoid those kinds of interactions. Otherwise, you should let it go.

 

I would not offer any suggestions about the behavior of the other children, general discipline, or the structure of the Sunday school unless a) you're asked and/or b) you are willing to volunteer.

 

IMO, the situation should have been addressed immediately (and kindly) with the director. And it wasn't, and that's ok. We all have different ways of approaching things, especially when they're new and we're not quite sure what to do. :) But since you're asking, I think I'd just go to the director now and say you'd asked to observe because your child is having a hard time in Sunday school with a special needs child, and you're wondering what kind of plans there might be in place to help with the situation. Something like this: Compliment (something you saw that's working well)---here's the particular problem I'd like to address (only your son's situation, not the general Sunday school structure)---how can we resolve this---end with something positive and thanks for listening.

 

You may find that the topic of the general program structure comes up naturally in the conversation, but based on one observation on an unusual day, I wouldn't offer any constructive criticism or suggestions unless directly asked. Stick to the specific issue of concern to you.

 

:)

 

Cat

[4kids4me]

I'm unclear about the purpose of the observation period. I think the approach depends on your goal.

 

Was it to see if your son was behaving? If he didn't behave, I'd address it with him and ask the teacher if the session was typical, and *maybe* offer some suggestions that might work for him. (Ex: "I've noticed that he responds to intervention well if it happens the moment he starts being silly.") If he behaved within reasonable child-appropriate limits, then I'd let it go.

 

Was it to observe the other child? If he didn't behave himself and it affected your child directly, then you might ask them about some kind of support for the other child and ideas to help your child avoid those kinds of interactions. Otherwise, you should let it go.

 

I would not offer any suggestions about the behavior of the other children, general discipline, or the structure of the Sunday school unless a) you're asked and/or b) you are willing to volunteer.

 

IMO, the situation should have been addressed immediately (and kindly) with the director. And it wasn't, and that's ok. We all have different ways of approaching things, especially when they're new and we're not quite sure what to do. :) But since you're asking, I think I'd just go to the director now and say you'd asked to observe because your child is having a hard time in Sunday school with a special needs child, and you're wondering what kind of plans there might be in place to help with the situation. Something like this: Compliment (something you saw that's working well)---here's the particular problem I'd like to address (only your son's situation, not the general Sunday school structure)---how can we resolve this---end with something positive and thanks for listening.

 

You may find that the topic of the general program structure comes up naturally in the conversation, but based on one observation on an unusual day, I wouldn't offer any constructive criticism or suggestions unless directly asked. Stick to the specific issue of concern to you.

 

:)

 

Cat

 

Thanks for your help. The purpose of my visit was to see how my son interacted with this particular boy and two others, as I was told there were four altogether that tend to misbehave. I actually didn't see him interacting with any of them. The director told me the format was a typical Sunday. What I did notice between three other boys, and another group, was that the silly/disobedient behaviour wasn't being addressed at the outset, which makes me think this is what is happening with the four kids. I did observe the group sit for a solid 45 minutes. Much of that time my son and the other boys his age and younger were not engaged. When they went into small groups, my son was not engaged at all, so I noticed him not listening and twirling around on his bottom. Normally I would scold him for that...but in light of the way the set- up was, and that the way the lesson was presented wasn't overly engaging for the boys, I felt that his distraction was within normal for a 6yo boy. So unless I tell her a) they're not nipping disruptive behaviour in the bud and b) they're not engaging the younger boys especially, then I'm not sure how to help my son with the other boy. Or I could continue to go to his class until I see how the boys all specifically interact with one another. Which I'm more than willing to do.

[tex-mex]

 

The teacher was not in control of the class.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[cin]

I thought of you the other day. I was walking into Target and this child ran in front of me. He was babbling and flapping and almost ran me over. I had to stop to keep from colliding with him. His mom followed him (I stopped for her also). I don't know if the child was Aspie or Autistic, but his behavior indicated that, at the very least, there was some SID. And his mom didn't seem to think there was a need for manners.

 

My daughter is a mild aspie with SID. But she does not run people over. She talks too much, and interrupts often, but she doesn't get away with it. She just hasn't mastered the self-control on that one.

[4kids4me]

I thought of you the other day. I was walking into Target and this child ran in front of me. He was babbling and flapping and almost ran me over. I had to stop to keep from colliding with him. His mom followed him (I stopped for her also). I don't know if the child was Aspie or Autistic, but his behavior indicated that, at the very least, there was some SID. And his mom didn't seem to think there was a need for manners.

 

My daughter is a mild aspie with SID. But she does not run people over. She talks too much, and interrupts often, but she doesn't get away with it. She just hasn't mastered the self-control on that one.

 

I'm going to talk to the Director today...hopefully I won't put my foot in my mouth. :001_smile: