s/o waiter/waitress tips...rant

[hollyh]

So... with all the tips threads, I thought I would look up what I have always wondered about. I grew up hearing that you need to tip well b/c waiters don't get paid much, etc. However, my sister waitresses and makes a TON of money. I also knew people who quit teaching school b/c they made more $ waitressing than they did teaching!! Now, I've never been a waitress, so maybe I am mis-informed on how difficult of a job it is, but that just seems ridiculous to me. I just looked it up and here in CA, waiters get at least minimum wage plus tips - which usually means that they will earn $20-30/hr. And, many get benefits as well ... Is it just me, or does something not seem right? It's a profession which requires no further education, and yet we are "expected" to tip? ... Sorry, I have an issue with expected tips to begin with as I feel that tipping should be an added gift/bonus for a job well done, not just a social expectation. So to find out that they make that much $ kind of frustrates me. Am I the only one, or do I need to be slapped upside the head? I truly wish that restaurants and other establishments would simply include the pay for tips and products as a whole and that we didn't have to deal with tips at all...

 

(FYI, I own a high $ service oriented business- but would never even think about expecting tips - nor do I want my clients to do so. We do get tips, but I don't care one way or another if they tip or how much. I simply care that they like the product provided. I charge what I want to be paid. Seems simple to me.)

[ondreeuh]

I feel the same way you do, because I've lived in a state with the same rules (waitresses make at least minimum wage before tips). Other states are different, unless that changed recently. I've heard of states where waitresses are only paid $2 an hour by their business, and they get the rest by tips. It's ridiculous that everyone is expected to play by the same rules and tip 15-20%. In the past I was told that wait staff are taxed on 8% of the bill as a tip whether they got it or not, so if you don't tip at least 8% you are costing them money. I don't know if that's still true.

 

I do tip, but I tip a lesser percentage if the waiter/waitress is not attentive or if my meal price is jacked up by an expensive drink. I tip higher if the waiter/waitress put more work into my order. I tip the lady who cuts my hair 66% because she charges so little and gives a great haircut. But I still think tipping should be abolished or at least brought down to something like 5% if you're really impressed.

[Heather in Neverland]

When I waitressed I made $2.50 an hour plus tips and I was taxed 10% whether I made that or not and I had to share tips with the bartender and the busboys and the hostesses. I was NOT getting rich and I worked my butt off.

[ondreeuh]

Would you have rather made a flat wage?

[cindergretta]

In my state, wait staff earn minimum wage plus tips. They do make between $20-$30/hour. I guess it doesn't matter to me what happens in other states as this is the state in which I live and it really chaps my hide. :glare:

 

I went to a family restaurant a few weeks ago with dh and all of our dc. Our bill came with 18% automatically added on because we were a "party of 8." I was livid. We were a family having dinner out, NOT a "party of 8."

 

I wrote in a letter of complaint and the manager called me and apologized profusely, explained that the add-on is *not* intended for families but for mixed groups of several couples or groups of individuals dining together, etc. His words? "I am *offended* for you."

 

I think tipping should be voluntary, not obligatory, and it should be a lot lower. I think adding 10% on for good service should be acceptable.

 

Again, I am applying this in my mind in my state. I am not addressing states where wait staff are paid less than minimum wage. That is a whole other can of worms...

[StaceyinLA]

They survive on tips; tips which still have to be shared with hostesses and busboys. My guess is in states where they make minimum wage +, the cost of living is much higher.

 

Frankly, if I can't afford to tip 20%, I'm not eating out. If the service is slacking, I'll tip 15. If its pretty crummy, 10. However, I generally go out expecting to pay 20%.

 

I also have a $5 minimum. If I go to a sit-down restaurant and eat for $12 and the service was good, I'm gonna leave $5.

 

I worked in a restaurant for a short time last year (for a friend who needed some help), and NO AMOUNT OF MONEY is worth the garbage people in the service industry put up with from rude, horrible customers. If I'm treated fairly, I'm happy to pay.

[Ibbygirl]

When I waitressed I made $2.50 an hour plus tips and I was taxed 10% whether I made that or not and I had to share tips with the bartender and the busboys and the hostesses. I was NOT getting rich and I worked my butt off.

 

:iagree::iagree: What she said! When I waited tables, I had to hustle non stop all day on my feet. It's a very exhausting and physically demanding job. I was paid $2.15/hr plus tips and had to tip out the bartenders, busboys etc also. There were some days when I took home only $11.00 after a full day's work. Not rich by a long shot.

[Lizzie in Ma]

They survive on tips; tips which still have to be shared with hostesses and busboys. My guess is in states where they make minimum wage +, the cost of living is much higher.

 

Frankly, if I can't afford to tip 20%, I'm not eating out. If the service is slacking, I'll tip 15. If its pretty crummy, 10. However, I generally go out expecting to pay 20%.

 

I also have a $5 minimum. If I go to a sit-down restaurant and eat for $12 and the service was good, I'm gonna leave $5.

 

I worked in a restaurant for a short time last year (for a friend who needed some help), and NO AMOUNT OF MONEY is worth the garbage people in the service industry put up with from rude, horrible customers. If I'm treated fairly, I'm happy to pay.

 

:iagree:

[nono]

Holly, hey how 'bout if I determine how much you are allowed to make? Would you be comfortable with that?

 

I don't think your high $ service oriented business is really worth what you are charging, so I'm only going to pay you 80% of the price you set. After you've done the work.

 

Put simply, no, I don't get where you are coming from...

[LaxMom]

They survive on tips; tips which still have to be shared with hostesses and busboys. My guess is in states where they make minimum wage +, the cost of living is much higher.

 

Frankly, if I can't afford to tip 20%, I'm not eating out. If the service is slacking, I'll tip 15. If its pretty crummy, 10. However, I generally go out expecting to pay 20%.

 

I also have a $5 minimum. If I go to a sit-down restaurant and eat for $12 and the service was good, I'm gonna leave $5.

 

I worked in a restaurant for a short time last year (for a friend who needed some help), and NO AMOUNT OF MONEY is worth the garbage people in the service industry put up with from rude, horrible customers. If I'm treated fairly, I'm happy to pay.

 

I do the same, including the $5 minimum.

 

Here, minimum wage for waitstaff is significantly lower than standard minimum wage ($2.01/hr when I worked in restaurants, when the std was $5.75 or higher) and they are taxed on that plus 10% of their ring. And, as mentioned, they are also tipping out a percentage of their tips to the bartender and bus staff. So, yeah, that one $20 check that they receive no tip puts them in the hole.

[kiana]

I'd really rather have wages set to a reasonable level country-wide and tips eliminated or left as a small extra for great service. And yes, I realize this would raise prices in restaurants. I'm okay with this.

[ashfern]

I'd really rather have wages set to a reasonable level country-wide and tips eliminated or left as a small extra for great service. And yes, I realize this would raise prices in restaurants. I'm okay with this.

 

That's my opinion too. We always tip 20% or more. The service has to be really bad to tip less & we never return to bad restaurants. If the food is bad, we'll still tip the 20% but won't return.

[Dustybug]

When I waitressed I made $2.50 an hour plus tips and I was taxed 10% whether I made that or not and I had to share tips with the bartender and the busboys and the hostesses. I was NOT getting rich and I worked my butt off.

 

Same here, only I only made $2.13 and hour. I could barely pay my bills after all was said and done and waitressing is FAR harder than it appears. That's why restaurant have such high employee turnover rates....many people are just not cut out for it.

 

 

They survive on tips; tips which still have to be shared with hostesses and busboys. My guess is in states where they make minimum wage +, the cost of living is much higher.

 

Frankly, if I can't afford to tip 20%, I'm not eating out. If the service is slacking, I'll tip 15. If its pretty crummy, 10. However, I generally go out expecting to pay 20%.

 

I also have a $5 minimum. If I go to a sit-down restaurant and eat for $12 and the service was good, I'm gonna leave $5.

 

I worked in a restaurant for a short time last year (for a friend who needed some help), and NO AMOUNT OF MONEY is worth the garbage people in the service industry put up with from rude, horrible customers. If I'm treated fairly, I'm happy to pay.

 

 

:iagree:

[Ester Maria]

Frankly, I prefer a culture without the tipping expectations - where the service is included into the price, period. If you want to go an extra mile and reward the service, so be it, but you are not expected, because the price is calculated with the service. Plus it is easier than do the mental math all the time, keep adding 20%, then make sure to round it to a higher price than to a lower price lest you appear stingy, etc. I often feel like saying, "Just list to me the full price, everything included.", but of course, one cannot say that because you again appear stingy and whatnot. So I keep doing the math. Sigh.

[MissKNG]

When I waitressed I made $2.50 an hour plus tips and I was taxed 10% whether I made that or not and I had to share tips with the bartender and the busboys and the hostesses. I was NOT getting rich and I worked my butt off.

 

I never realized how much a server goes through while on the job until I worked in a restaurant. Servers do work their butts off and after working in a restaurant, my attitude about tipping completely changed. (of course, the bad service is the exception)

[Stacy in NJ]

Well, service in areas with an expectation of tipping is usually superior. I just spent a week in London and am a frequent visitor to NYC. NYC has by far (by far, far, far) a better ethic of customer service.

[Ester Maria]

Holly, hey how 'bout if I determine how much you are allowed to make? Would you be comfortable with that?

 

I don't think your high $ service oriented business is really worth what you are charging, so I'm only going to pay you 80% of the price you set. After you've done the work.

 

Put simply, no, I don't get where you are coming from...

Not Holly - but is not the whole point with tipping that there *is no* set price? What Holly is arguing for, if I am reading her correctly, is for a set price which includes the service (not only the product) and any further tipping be voluntary rather than "voluntary" like it is now (i.e. a tacit societal expectation). There are places in the world which operate under those premises and they are fine - it is just a different way of setting up a service oriented business. Personally, I also dislike the whole "here is the written price, but you are actually expected to add 20%" thing - why cannot I just get the FULL price written, and why cannot it be left to my personal consideration whether I want to reward the service additionally or not?

 

(For the record, I tend to round every price to the next reasonable round mark, so I end up "tipping" anyway even when it is not expected, because it is less of a hassle for me, and I duly do the math of 20% where the custom is such; what I complain about is being expected to tip, not being told a full fair price without any resentment if I pay only that.)

[Tigger]

So to find out that they make that much $ kind of frustrates me.

 

I haven't read all replies, but it frustrates you that if a waitress manages to get 40 hours of shifts, week in week out over a year, she'll earn $41,600 to $62,400? It frustrates you they might be able to manage a middle class wage?

[3littlekeets]

I haven't read all replies, but it frustrates you that if a waitress manages to get 40 hours of shifts, week in week out over a year, she'll earn $41,600 to $62,400? It frustrates you they might be able to manage a middle class wage?

 

No kidding! And in pts. of California, that still can't buy you a home! If you don't like it stay home and cook.

 

Servers btw is the correct term. Waitress or waiter is similar to stewardess.

Edited January 15, 2012 by 3littlekeets

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, service in areas with an expectation of tipping is usually superior. I just spent a week in London and am a frequent visitor to NYC. NYC has by far (by far, far, far) a better ethic of customer service.

 

:iagree:

 

Malaysia is a "no tipping" society and it shows in the horrid customer service.

[Mimm]

I live in MO where waitresses do not make minimum wage. And even if they did, many could not make ends meet. My sister is a single mom trying to make it on her own. She doesn't get support from the father of her child or anyone else. She's a full time student. She needs to make more than minimum wage. She used to waitress but couldn't make enough so now she's bartending. She would work her butt off running around for a table only to have them give her nothing or throw a couple dollars on the table on a $70 ticket. Really.

 

You never know who your waitress is or what her story is.

[Aelwydd]

Frankly, I prefer a culture without the tipping expectations - where the service is included into the price, period. If you want to go an extra mile and reward the service, so be it, but you are not expected, because the price is calculated with the service. Plus it is easier than do the mental math all the time, keep adding 20%, then make sure to round it to a higher price than to a lower price lest you appear stingy, etc. I often feel like saying, "Just list to me the full price, everything included.", but of course, one cannot say that because you again appear stingy and whatnot. So I keep doing the math. Sigh.

 

I don't find that stingy at all. What I find stingy is taking a family of 8 individuals, having them served by one person making minimum wage (if he/she is lucky), whose everlasting sucky job it is to run around for hours, haul food and drinks to table after table, in a manner that is bad for one's back, deal with messy kids throwing food, fielding complaints, dealing with loud drunk and obnoxious people--and then turn around and complain about how they are expected to pay 15 or 20 percent to that server for their service.

 

I've never been a server, but my sister was one for years. Well, actually I did work as one for a week as a "trial" period in the restaurant she worked in, which is a popular chain. I found it to be incredibly physical work that was caused my back to spasm up for hours after I got home. My wages were $2.50/hr + tips (- busboy's share) + (- taxes + FICA).

 

To put it in perspective, other jobs I've held in the past including working at a horse stable, mucking out stalls, and working as a baggage handler for an airline in the DFW airport.

 

(I enjoyed those jobs and worked for years in each position.)

 

That's right. I found waiting tables in a restaurant to be more intolerable than shoveling horse s%*t and loading 40+ lb bags in 100+ degree heat.

 

Do not ever tell me that most food servers are all living it up making craploads of money. Even those that are fortunate enough to make $20+ an hour are still having to divvy it up with bus boys and bar tenders. The vast majority are not making even close to those wages.

 

That's why if I can't afford to pay a 20% tip on top of my meal, then I figure I can't afford that meal. (BTW, 20% is the default. When service is really amazing, I will tip up to 50%.)

 

Tipping is part of the cost of eating out at sit-down restaurants. I know it's not required, but I refuse to rip hard-working people off by stiffing them like that. And not the least because doing so constitutes a form of stealing to me. I'd be taking advantage of their hard work, work they do in good faith, and then walking out the door without paying them.

 

That's just wrong.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Aelwydd

[Mimm]

Holly, hey how 'bout if I determine how much you are allowed to make? Would you be comfortable with that?

 

I don't think your high $ service oriented business is really worth what you are charging, so I'm only going to pay you 80% of the price you set. After you've done the work.

 

Put simply, no, I don't get where you are coming from...

 

:iagree:

 

And keep in mind that everything that goes wrong during the meal gets taken out of the waitresses tip. She told someone to refill your drink and they didn't? Lower tip. The kitchen forgot you didn't want onions in your food? Lower tip. Crying baby at the next table? Wrong kind of music playing? Restaurant too cold? Take it out of the tip!

 

People treat the wait staff like their own personal servants. And their income is determined by the whims of the customer. Till you've actually waitressed, you have NO idea what they have to put up with and people get all moody if they make more than min wage? I honestly think everyone should be required to wait tables for a year in high school.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Mimm

[NanceXToo]

I haven't read all replies, but it frustrates you that if a waitress manages to get 40 hours of shifts, week in week out over a year, she'll earn $41,600 to $62,400? It frustrates you they might be able to manage a middle class wage?

 

:iagree: They bust their BUTTS. They are on their feet for HOURS. Their feet hurt. Their backs hurt. They are carrying things, hustling non-stop, catering to rude, whiny, demanding people, all with a smile on their faces, sharing their tips with other people, sometimes having their tips stolen by busboys or other waitresses, often dealing with cheap people who don't even leave a respectable tip, cleaning up other peoples' messes, sometimes dealing with jerk managers on power trips, working odd hours that make them miss all sorts of stuff at home (I'm just going by my sister in law's experiences here...) and if they're lucky enough to make a middle class wage, which certainly isn't really the case around here... that would upset you? Really?

[Aelwydd]

I haven't read all replies, but it frustrates you that if a waitress manages to get 40 hours of shifts, week in week out over a year, she'll earn $41,600 to $62,400? It frustrates you they might be able to manage a middle class wage?

 

Totally agree. This thread has made me so angry. People talk about how wrong it is for folks to feel "entitled," well to me, this is one area I agree. People should not feel entitled to go to a restaurant, and get service without paying the laborer what his labor is worth.

 

It's unconscionable to me--demanding service while denigrating the labor of those doing the work.

[beaners]

It was $2.13 in Memphis and over the border into Mississippi a couple years ago. My husband says it was $2.38 in Georgia. Unfortunately, people in those states were, on average, even less likely to tip than customers in other states. Many people were amazed to find out what servers actually made, because they assumed they were getting minimum wage plus tips. In their eyes, a $2 tip was gravy. A lot of people were outraged for us servers when they found out what we actually made. (I wouldn't tell my customers this, but I would tell the people who happened to be drinking at the local bars after work.)

 

I made decent money, but I was working on corporate banquets. I was not making it on regular tables there, although I gave them the same excellent service.

[melissel]

I haven't read all replies, but it frustrates you that if a waitress manages to get 40 hours of shifts, week in week out over a year, she'll earn $41,600 to $62,400? It frustrates you they might be able to manage a middle class wage?

 

Yeah, I immediately thought the same thing. Do you need to go to college to be a waitress? No. But as others have said, waitressing is exhausting, physically demanding work. I don't see why we'd begrudge someone a good wage for doing it :confused:

[Aelwydd]

:iagree: They bust their BUTTS. They are on their feet for HOURS. Their feet hurt. Their backs hurt. They are carrying things, hustling non-stop, catering to rude, whiny, demanding people, all with a smile on their faces, sharing their tips with other people, sometimes having their tips stolen by busboys or other waitresses, often dealing with cheap people who don't even leave a respectable tip, cleaning up other peoples' messes, sometimes dealing with jerk managers on power trips, working odd hours that make them miss all sorts of stuff at home (I'm just going by my sister in law's experiences here...) and if they're lucky enough to make a middle class wage, which certainly isn't really the case around here... that would upset you? Really?

 

And can we talk about the wonderful benefits they get, please? You know, the great health insurance plan? The profit-sharing? The 2 weeks paid vacation + paid sick days off?

 

Oh wait...never mind. I guess those who actually enjoy things like health insurance are most likely having to pay either huge chunks of their paychecks towards premiums (if their restaurant actually has a plan), or just footing the bill entirely on their own.

 

Just knock another 5K - 10K a year off that huge salary of 37K (if they're lucky), and factor in how such a physically demanding job can cost someone massive amounts of money in health-related costs over time.

 

Yeah, totally not begrudging them a $5 tip on a $20 ticket.

[JFSinIL]

Maybe they make $20 - 30 an hour - but for how many hours does that much roll in? I would think dinner time is a bigger bill/tip than lunch - and I can't see either period being "prime" tip-making time for 8 hours a day. Some days (Friday/Saturday) may generate more tips than weeknights - also don't most waiterstaff folks share tip money with other workers in the restaurant (otherwise the other staff can slow down/mess up orders and there go the tips, right?)

 

It may also depend on the restaurant. Places that are high-falutin' and charge more may generate bigger tips...but then folks may make an evening out of it and stay longer at the table, causing less turn-a-round.

 

I'd go and read the back-issues (back-blog posts) at Waiter Rant or his book before assuming all or most wait staff are rolling in the dough. Even The Waiter admits some nights he made a lot....but those nights were tempered by the ones when he didn't. So it all evened out in the end.

[melissel]

(FYI, I own a high $ service oriented business- but would never even think about expecting tips - nor do I want my clients to do so. We do get tips, but I don't care one way or another if they tip or how much. I simply care that they like the product provided. I charge what I want to be paid. Seems simple to me.)

 

And Holly, you are the business owner. You are the direct beneficiary of the income for your business. You're the one setting the prices. Servers don't accrue the same benefits. They're the employees, with no control over marketing, pricing, service environment, etc. Their scenario doesn't even come close to equating to yours in terms of their income and tipping. This is the reason for the general rule that you don't tip the owner of the business when they're the one providing service--only the employees. If you do tip, the amount expected is much less.

[melissel]

And can we talk about the wonderful benefits they get, please? You know, the great health insurance plan? The profit-sharing? The 2 weeks paid vacation + paid sick days off?

 

Seriously.

[Ester Maria]

Tipping is part of the cost of eating out at sit-down restaurants. I know it's not required, but I refuse to rip hard-working people off by stiffing them like that. And not the least because doing so constitutes a form of stealing to me. I'd be taking advantage of their hard work, work they do in good faith, and then walking out the door without paying them.

I did not "read" OP as though she suggested people should not be payed for their work (she did marvel at how much some people make as it surprised her, but nowhere did she state that they should not be properly paid for ther work). Rather, I read it as though she thought a different altogether payment arrangements could be made - such that the price include the service, leading to a situation where nobody is resented for paying only that price (because it would be a full price) or tipping less than "supposed".

 

In my experience, most people will end up doing some form of "tipping" anyway, even in societies where it is not an unwritten rule and where the price one gets is the full price - simply because when they read 17€, most people I know tend to automatically leave 20€ and wave their hands negatively at a waitress' attempt to give them back their change, for example. People tend to round it to the nearest -5 or -0 when reasonably small sums are concerned, and when big sums are concerned, people tend to add even more than do the simple rounding. Nobody likes to deal with "little numbers", nobody likes to be the stingy one waiting their two small coins back, and if anything, people wish to appear nice and generous rather than leave room for doubt.

 

The problem is that the paying arrangement in which the product and the service are divorced and treated as two separate entities is more of a hassle for everyone, more math, and ultimately more money because the pressure to tip is bigger and of course, one always wants to err on the side of giving more rather than giving less. That is why the paying arrangement in which the single price includes the service, and it is explicitly stated so, and any further tipping is strictly voluntary, is according to some people a better overall arrangement. Tipping will still be happening, because tipping is a part of the overall culture - but there is no hassle and resentment if it does not, because one pays the full price. Which then by implication means the waitress' wages are higher to begin with and that she gets via wages that which she would normally get in tipping. She is not shortchanged (and like I said, tipping still occurs because people still refuse to take change back), it is just a different arrangement. (And of course, in very pricey restaurants everyone tips, no matter where in the world, because it is a part of the "ceremony" - even if they are told the full price.)

Edited January 15, 2012 by Ester Maria

[NanceXToo]

And can we talk about the wonderful benefits they get, please? You know, the great health insurance plan? The profit-sharing? The 2 weeks paid vacation + paid sick days off?

 

Cough. Right. My SIL has been at her place for years and I can't even remember the last time she didn't have to work on a holiday. Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, she works on all of them. You'd think people would tip better on those days. They don't. Who cares if someone doesn't even get to be home with family on a holiday. Last Thanksgiving they were SUPPOSED to get equal shifts of only X number of hours each so that no-one had to work more than others and everyone would get SOME time home. Instead some jerk manager let some people (newer people) stay home, tried to put my SIL on for a longer shift, and she had to tell him, "I'm not doing it. I'm leaving at ___O'clock to be with my family," and fortunately he didn't fire her.

 

Not every waitress would be able to say that. It is unbelievable what a lot of them have to put up with.

[melissel]

I did not "read" OP as though she suggested people should not be payed for their work (she did marvel at how much some people make as it surprised her, but nowhere did she state that they should not be properly paid for ther work).

 

I think people find this sentiment the most problematic:

 

I just looked it up and here in CA, waiters get at least minimum wage plus tips - which usually means that they will earn $20-30/hr. And, many get benefits as well ... Is it just me, or does something not seem right? It's a profession which requires no further education, and yet we are "expected" to tip?

 

What does their education have to do with how hard they work at the job they do? Why are we begrudging good workers, providing (usually) a good service, a good wage? We're not expected to tip or not tip based on their level of education. We're expected to tip or not tip because that's the way the industry is structured, for better or for worse. As many others have pointed out, often service in non-tipping societies is mediocre at best (and yes, I've experienced this myself as well). Whereas, if you're busting your butt for the majority of your paycheck and spending most of your time face to face with the people paying you, you're almost definitely going to be providing superior service.

Edited January 15, 2012 by melissel

[Aelwydd]

I did not "read" OP as though she suggested people should not be payed for their work (she did marvel at how much some people make as it surprised her, but nowhere did she state that they should not be properly paid for ther work). Rather, I read it as though she thought a different altogether payment arrangements could be made - such that the price include the service, leading to a situation where nobody is resented for paying only that price (because it would be a full price) or tipping less than "supposed".

 

If I misread the OP's tone, then I sincerely apologize. But, to me, her post could be summed up as follows:

 

1.Servers are, in apparently overwhelming numbers, making an average of $20 - 30/hour.

 

2.Since they are clearly making so much money in her state, being paid minimum wage and all, plus tips (that are divvied up and taxed), it's an affront to her that there should be a "rule," either official or unofficial, that servers are guaranteed a 15-20% tip.

 

3.She took her family of 8 individuals to a restaurant, and after being served, went home and complained to the manager about the fact she was compelled to pay the (obviously well-off and overpaid server) a set percentage for his or her service. This is apparently quite offensive to her.

 

 

That's what I took from the OP's post, and frankly, it offended the heck out of me.

 

In my experience, most people will end up doing some form of "tipping" anyway, even in societies where it is not an unwritten rule and where the price one gets is the full price - simply because when they read 17€, most people I know tend to automatically leave 20€ and wave their hands negatively at a waitress' attempt to give them back their change, for example. People tend to round it to the nearest -5 or -0 when reasonably small sums are concerned, and when big sums are concerned, people tend to add even more than do the simple rounding. Nobody likes to deal with "little numbers", nobody likes to be the stingy one waiting their two small coins back, and if anything, people wish to appear nice and generous rather than leave room for doubt.

 

The problem is that the paying arrangement in which the product and the service are divorced and treated as two separate entities is more of a hassle for everyone, more math, and ultimately more money because the pressure to tip is bigger and of course, one always wants to err on the side of giving more rather than giving less. That is why the paying arrangement in which the single price includes the service, and it is explicitly stated so, and any further tipping is strictly voluntary, is according to some people a better overall arrangement. Tipping will still be happening, because tipping is a part of the overall culture - but there is no hassle and resentment if it does not, because one pays the full price. Which then by implication means the waitress' wages are higher to begin with and that she gets via wages that which she would normally get in tipping. She is not shortchanged (and like I said, tipping still occurs because people still refuse to take change back), it is just a different arrangement.[/Quote]

I'm not disagreeing with you, Ester. My bone to pick has to do more with the attitude towards servers, not with the method in which that payment is dispensed. There are drawbacks to both ways. The downside to your solution is that sometimes less ethical institutions will not pass the entire tip on to servers. My father worked for years for a limo company that included an 18% gratuity, but he rarely got more than his base salary--unless someone tipped on top of the "included" tip.

 

As others pointed out, it removes some of the incentive for servers to provide superior service. For me, the difference between adequate service and superior service is about 30%. But, they are getting the minimum of 20%--from me.

[Aelwydd]

I think people find this sentiment the most problematic:

 

 

 

What does their education have to do with how hard they work at the job they do? Why are we begrudging good workers, providing (usually) a good service, a good wage?

 

Exactly.

[melissel]

3.She took her family of 8 individuals to a restaurant, and after being served, went home and complained to the manager about the fact she was compelled to pay the (obviously well-off and overpaid server) a set percentage for his or her service. This is apparently quite offensive to her.

 

 

I agree with you entirely. I think this was not the OP though--it was a different poster.

[bbmom]

I would love to know where 'most' servers are getting $20-$30 an hour plus benefits, because I wou=rked as a waitress from the time I was 16 until I finished college and got a 'real' job, so a total of almost 8 years waiting tables for numerous establishments (both local and national chain restaurants) and let me tell you, NONE of the wait staff at any of those restaurants were getting benefits. Why? Because the managers would never schedule anyone for enough hours on a consistent basis to qualify. Some of the cooks got benefits, but none of the front of house people did. Add to that, the servers didn't get breaks either-you worked a 6 hour shift over the lunch or dinner hours with no break. Most nights I worked I didn't eat dinner until after 10 p.m., but it had to be ordered before the kitchen closed, so I ate it cold.

 

I worked in both Utah (2.13 an hour plus tips) and California (min wage plus tips) and in neither place did I ever feel the urgent need to pick up my paycheck. In Utah I had several checks that were less than 25 cents and I don't think I ever had a check over $5, and some of my co-workers wound up owing money back to the restaurant! While it was better in California, I don't think I ever had a check larger than $200 for 2 weeks work. Yes, some nights I would go home wit almost $200, but most days/nights I would be lucky to go home with $75. Figure 5 shifts a week (if I was lucky) with 4 at $75 and 1 at $150 plus a $100 weekly paycheck (again, if I was lucky) and I was making $550 a week with no benefits. That is $2,200 a month which is 26,400 a year. You couldn't even get a studio apartment in a nice part of town for 1/3 of that salary! Now, this was over 10 years ago, so with rising prices, I am sure servers today make a little more, but cost of living has gone up too.

 

On top of all that, waiting tables is physically demanding work that does take a good deal of organizational skill to be good at (plus you were at the mercy of any rushes or hostess seating issues or kitchen mistakes.) I once had a woman leave me nothing because the kitchen dropped her pizza on the floor and it had to be re-made. I explained right away, apologized profusely, went above and beyone to get her kids an activity while she waited, she got her meal comped and she still let me nothing. I had nothing to do with the kitchen mistake, but I still paid for it. Plus, people are cranky and demanding about their food and many feel like servers are below them and have no problem treating them like crap.

 

What do you feel running around with no break for 6+ hours with no benefits, not being able to live in the town you work in, and working for people who treat you like crap is worth?

[Dustybug]

I think people find this sentiment the most problematic:

 

 

 

What does their education have to do with how hard they work at the job they do? Why are we begrudging good workers, providing (usually) a good service, a good wage? We're not expected to tip or not tip based on their level of education. We're expected to tip or not tip because that's the way the industry is structured, for better or for worse. As many others have pointed out, often service in non-tipping societies is mediocre at best (and yes, I've experienced this myself as well). Whereas, if you're busting your butt for the majority of your paycheck and spending most of your time face to face with the people paying you, you're almost definitely going to be providing superior service.

 

:iagree: And that's one of the MANY ways that servers are mistreated too because people look down on them. I'm so thankful that I don't do it anymore and it would take some serious financial straits for me to return to it. People would be so degrading because I was "just a server."

 

I waited tables until two weeks before my oldest DD was born and for about 6 months while I was pregnant with my DS. THEN I really got the comments and attitudes. People would assume that because I was pregnant and waiting tables that my DH must have run off or I was just "knocked up" by someone and trying to get by.

[elegantlion]

At the restaurant my parents frequent their servers make under minimum wage and work less than 40 hours a week. Sometimes they work 2-3 hours a day, period and not 5 days a week. Some of these girls probably don't make enough to cover their child care.

 

My dh was a server for a while, he did all right, but he was exhausted. It's hard work. My dh was also a self-employed carpenter until last fall. Unfortunately we saw a lot of the same attitude in his industry, people indignant because a carpenter might make X amount of dollars in a year, in a position that doesn't require a college education. Yes, your carpenter is supposed to make a profit from your job, that's how he supports his family. Servers fall into that same category, they work their butt off, I would not begrudge them their middle class salary. Not everyone tips as they should either.

[AimeeM]

I'm sure it's been pointed out that waiters make SERVER MINIMUM WAGE plus tips - here that is 2 something an hour plus tips.

[GingerPoppy]

They make regular minimum wage here in Ontario, Canada, which is currently $10.25. I was a server before I finished my schooling. The money was decent. I worked in so-so to o.k. type places. If you worked in a nice place, or did some bartending, the money could be quite nice.

 

I'm all for generous tipping in places where the base pay is around $2 or $3. It's more silly to expect the identical level of tipping here.

[clarkacademy]

I have never put this much thought into eating out. I have a headache now and have decided that we will never eat anywhere again that requires a tip. :lol:

[kewb]

Where I am wait staff minimum wage is in the $2.50 per hour range.

 

I tip because it is hard work. The service I receive will be reflected in the tip.

[Tigger]

I would love to know where 'most' servers are getting $20-$30 an hour plus benefits, because I wou=rked as a waitress from the time I was 16 until I finished college and got a 'real' job, so a total of almost 8 years waiting tables for numerous establishments (both local and national chain restaurants) and let me tell you, NONE of the wait staff at any of those restaurants were getting benefits.

 

While certainly not the norm, I do know a couple of servers making six figures - both work at Disney World and worked their way up and through the smaller, less expensive restaurants to the signature restaurants. They have benefits, they're paid well and their tips - due to the price of the tab - exceeds $100,000 a year in wage + tips. Honestly, I think that's great - I don't know them "personally" but when we're at Disney, we ask for them when we're eating in those restaurants because their service is, bar none, awesome, above and beyond and they remember us each time we eat there, which just adds to the feeling we get eating there. I know they make that much because over the years, with them being our consistent server we ask for, we've chatted with them and they're honest about what they make when asked....one has worked at Disney his whole adult life, he started at 18 when Magic Kingdom opened - with that much time in, I'd say he's earned it! The other server we ask for has been at Disney for 22 years - again long term, hard working and incredible service! But they are certainly not the rule - they are the exceptions and I do get that, that most servers do not make that kind of money!

[LibraryLover]

Isn't it common knowledge that waitresses are the folks living in penthouses, and single-handedly fueled & crashed the McMansion buidling boom? They should, instead, be welfare queens so they can get big fancy cars.

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[melissel]

Isn't it common knowledge that waitresses are the folks living in penthouses, and single-handedly fuled & crashed the McManion buidling boom? They should, instead, be welfare queens so they can get big fancy cars.

 

:lol:

 

The only server I know personally at the moment can't even afford to buy a home with her husband (also employed FT), so they are forced to rent. The other server I knew wouldn't go back to that job unless truly desperate.

Edited January 15, 2012 by melissel

[BatmansWife]

I worked at a pizza place for almost 3 years not long ago. Because I was one of the few adults who was hired to work there, I made a little more per hour then the kids. By the time I left, I was making $8 an hour plus tips. But, all the tips had to be put in a bucket and they were evenly split by how many workers worked that shift (this was true with any tips from delivery).

 

Yeah...it's not easy work. I also found that no matter how wonderful of a job you do some people could just care less about tipping. This usually happened with the really big groups with messy kids. I stayed late one night to accomodate a large group (they came in about 15 minutes before closing). I had the worse mess to clean up afterwards and they left us nothing....not even any spare change.

 

We could keep free and clear $20 a month for tips, the rest they had to declare on our taxes.

 

My dd is a waitress now (at a different place) and she makes $5.15 an hour plus tips. The tips are also split, but I don't think evenly.

 

 

I never realized how much a server goes through while on the job until I worked in a restaurant. Servers do work their butts off and after working in a restaurant, my attitude about tipping completely changed. (of course, the bad service is the exception)

 

:iagree: Now that I've been through it and know what it's like.....I always tidy up the table and make sure to leave a nice tip.

[elegantlion]

Isn't it common knowledge that waitresses are the folks living in penthouses, and single-handedly fuled & crashed the McManion buidling boom? They should, instead, be welfare queens so they can get big fancy cars.

 

Come on, don't you know the McMansions are NOT owned by servers, they're owned by fast food employees, hence the name.

 

You really should check your sources before posting. :tongue_smilie:;)

[hollyh]

Ok, there were a lot of comments, so sorry if I am missing some.

My complaint is that the general consensus is that they don't make even minimum wage so you better tip well to make sure that they don't go home making pennies- but in CA they do make at least real minimum wage. I'm not saying that is a sufficient living. Yes, even making 40-60k a year in CA will not likely buy you a house. But there are a lot of jobs that work just as hard physically, emotionally, etc. that don't make 40-60k, - I don't see everyone compelled to supplement their hourly wages to make sure that they can afford a house, etc. Frankly, in CA a LOT of people can't buy a house with two incomes! (Do you tip the Taco Bell worker, the janitor, the Target worker - who is also probably working for minimum wage?) My true rant is that I think establishments should simply include the cost of the tip/service/etc. in the cost of the product. Simple enough. Tell the servers what they will be making in the form of their salary or hourly wage and go from there. I don't like the "expectation". I don't like the wondering if the server will feel complimented enough or if I left enough. FYI we generally leave $20%, but instead of feeling good about leaving what I think should be considered a "gift", I always wonder if I left enough... I'm not complaint about the cost of the tip on top of the food. I am complaining about the system. I don't care if they include 50% on top of the food price. That is the cost of eating out- then if the service is exceptional, I can choose without expectation to tip. :)

 

To the poster who asked me how I would like it if someone else got to determine what I charged for services - I wouldn't. Hence my post. I think it should be upfront, clear, without questions. That's what I do and if they don't like it they can go somewhere else.

 

As far as my comment about servers not needing an education. Yes, it bothers me that college grads leave their profession of choice and skill because they can make more money doing a job that doesn't require further education - yet I (and everyone I know) has been taught that that job doesn't even make minimum wage... yet it does (I feel like I have been lied to). I'm not saying that they don't deserve the money they earn or that they shouldn't be making that much money. If they don't like what they make, or it is too demanding- that doesn't have to be the job they take on. If they had a set hourly wage from the biz owner, then there would be no question. They make x/hour or a salary. They can make the choice on if that choice is a good option for them.