A classics professor told me yesterday that homeschoolers can't learn Latin at home

[Halcyon]

What do you think? She said you absolutely need someone who knows the language inside and out, even to teach the basics. She said the online courses are "cra*" and instill bad habits.

 

Thoughts?

[LizzyBee]

When my oldest dd started high school, her Latin teacher was quite impressed with what she already knew. Her Latin teacher has taken dd much further than we would have gotten at home on our own, but the idea that you need an expert teacher to learn the basics is b.s., imo.

[ChandlerMom]

Sounds a bit like a self-important someone trying to justify their existence. :D

 

Honestly, I don't know latin well enough to say, but most modern languages need tutoring because of: (1) pronunciation, and (2) word order/grammar -- neither of which is really an issue with latin.

 

I guess it depends on what you hope to get out of it -- if your goal is to teach your child an intro to a related language, or to be able to READ classics in latin, or just for fun -- I can't see that it matters. Even if you think your dc is likely to become a classics prof someday, seems like it would be easier to unlearn bad habits rather than start from scratch in college. Which brings me back to my first instinct: someone trying to justify their existence. :D I give that the same weight as a mom trying to say that kids can only be properly socialized in ps. :lol:

[amsunshine]

Those are fighting words. :001_smile:

 

Actually, we don't study Latin, but friends of ours (two different families) do. They have done very well. One family used the Memoria Press Latin (First Form?) -- I believe they used the online course(s). Their kids did extremely well on the national Latin exams. The other family has used various materials, and the mom even took a couple of community college Latin courses to help with teaching. They intend to soon take the Latin exams, as well.

 

Regardless, I think it's really silly to make a blanket statement about anything having to do with homeschoolers, whether it has to do with Latin or otherwise.

[zenjenn]

I can buy that to a limited extent, if someone is trying to learn a language with absolutely no audio resources.

 

But with an audio component, I call her on BS.

[Faithr]

I can't learn Latin without outside help, but I don't understand why on line classes don't rate! And there are plenty of people who love learning languages and study it on their own. She's just ignorant.

[Momling]

For a modern language, I agree that you need a fluent speaker if you want to have any hope of being able to communicate fluently. But if translation is your goal, learning from a book is entirely possible.

[Laura Corin]

Calvin is way at the top of his class in private school after learning Latin at home. He says he's learned under five new grammar topics in the eighteen months he's been in school - everything else he learned thoroughly at home.

 

I tend to agree with this advice for modern foreign languages: I would not have attempted to teach the boys a spoken language in which I was not fluent.

 

Laura

[Ester Maria]

You cannot teach what you do not know. That is a fact.

 

It is also a fact, however, that people do manage to learn - and some manage to cope quite well with - all sorts of things without, or with minimal, explicit instruction by another person. That is one of the reasons why there are books. Sure, books can be combined with other forms of learning (group instruction, individual instruction, etc.), but technically, there are such books which contain all you need and it matters little whether you are going to decipher it on your own or have somebody else tell you more or less the exact same things which are written in the book. With adequate, high quality materials, self-learning is quite possible.

 

The real quality of the language teacher is in interaction, which is FAR more relevant for modern spoken languages than for classical languages or languages which are learned with a goal of reading knowledge rather than active usage. If you learn the language to speak it, you need a lot of practice to be able to internalize it, automatize it, prevent bad habits from forming, acquire a reasonably good accent, and so forth; but if you learn it to read it, you can provide the practice you need to yourself, if you work in a smart way, as all of what you are doing is essentially textual work.

 

Feedback is needed for translation, but not everyone studies Latin with an explicit goal of learning precise and artistic translation along the way. Feedback is needed for composition, but few Latin learners are interested in active composition. Feedback is needed for grammatical exercises, but for that you can be largely self-sufficient as well (unlike translation / composition / speaking practice). And then somebody is needed to discuss what you read and the cultural context, but that is already outside of the confines of specifically linguistic knowledge, verging into cultural knowledge. Again, much of that can be compensated with additional materials.

 

I am inclined to agree that most people need some kind of an outside help to learn Latin well (not ALL people, but most do), if nothing else, then somebody to ask questions, control their written work or be able to grade what is being done (grading things you are not proficient in is tricky). However, it is simply not true that it is impossible to gain a reading knowledge of Latin in homeschool, even with all the limitations of a parent who is not an expert.

[MamaSheep]

We don't do Latin in our homeschool (sometimes you just do what you CAN do and let the nonessentials go; my son has been a VERY good teacher for this principle :glare:) but I imagine it would be a little demeaning to think one could be effectively replaced by a stack of paper and/or a video.

[Aspasia]

Sounds a bit like a self-important someone trying to justify their existence. :D

 

Honestly, I don't know latin well enough to say, but most modern languages need tutoring because of: (1) pronunciation, and (2) word order/grammar -- neither of which is really an issue with latin.

 

I guess it depends on what you hope to get out of it -- if your goal is to teach your child an intro to a related language, or to be able to READ classics in latin, or just for fun -- I can't see that it matters. Even if you think your dc is likely to become a classics prof someday, seems like it would be easier to unlearn bad habits rather than start from scratch in college. Which brings me back to my first instinct: someone trying to justify their existence. :D I give that the same weight as a mom trying to say that kids can only be properly socialized in ps. :lol:

 

:iagree:

 

And it makes sense. This person has dedicated his/her life to teaching a very difficult subject. The idea that an ordinary mom, who may not even have a college degree (gasp!), could help her child learn the basics of the subject is kind of an affront.

[SonshineLearner]

I think of Nathaniel Bowditch.... Vulgate and a Grammar book..... I bet he was ok by the end.

[sewingmama]

I think she has a point. I find it difficult to learn ANY language from home. A better resource is a native teacher and the best resource for learning a language is to actually go to that country and immerse yourself in it. A bit unlikely though if you are learning Latin :D

[Dawn E]

I find it interesting the seeming disdain she expressed. I once reached out to one of my old classics professors with questions about dd learning Greek. He seemed both surprised and delighted that children were being introduced to the subject. This teacher you speak of is likely a perfectionist and very good at what she does. Perhaps the idea of having to undo the "bad habits" formed by home study (not using the methods, pronunciation she prefers) outweighs the delight of the prospect of an increased amount of students with a passion for learning Latin.

 

I personally don't expect my child to work to a mastery of a classical language under me. I do expect to provide her with a solid foundation, though, and she can expand it further if it becomes a passionate pursuit.

[TranquilMind]

What do you think? She said you absolutely need someone who knows the language inside and out, even to teach the basics. She said the online courses are "cra*" and instill bad habits.

 

Thoughts?

Baloney.

 

My daughter learned Latin in one hour a week from a very dedicated Home School Mom who was teaching a co-op class.

 

She did amazingly every year on the NLE and is now in AP Latin at a school, the youngest person ever to be in this Senior class as a Sophomore. She could have done it last year. Latin IV was so easy the teacher kept apologizing for not being able to challenge her as much as he would have liked.

[JennyD]

I find it interesting the seeming disdain she expressed. I once reached out to one of my old classics professors with questions about dd learning Greek. He seemed both surprised and delighted that children were being introduced to the subject.

 

I'm a little surprised, too. We know a lot of professors and have never gotten any kind of response like that -- "surprise and delight" is much more par for the course.

 

Actually, change that -- I'm a lot surprised. I mean, come on, lady, classics departments are dying on the vine and you're UPSET that homeschoolers are trying to study Latin? Are your classes being swamped by hordes of eager but imperfectly prepared freshmen? Is the department having to offer remedial classes for legions of incoming students who studied Latin for years at home? EYES ON THE BALL, WOMAN!

 

Ahem. We have not begun Latin yet, but I can't possibly imagine why homeschoolers couldn't attain a decent reading knowledge of Latin (or other languages as well, for that matter) at home, as long as you had good materials to work with.

[eloquacious]

I learned Latin in Germany, first with a private tutor (who was also a credentialed teacher), then with a class in a school. Firstly, we pronounced many things differently from how they are pronounced here... and I defy anyone to say which is the correct way. Secondly, the speed of my progress (all the while practicing with my grandfather, who had not taken Latin in over 60 years) while working with my tutor was lightyears faster than with my class. How on earth does said person believe most of the educated persons of history (many of whom studied with private tutors) learned Latin?

[Ester Maria]

I'm a little surprised, too. We know a lot of professors and have never gotten any kind of response like that -- "surprise and delight" is much more par for the course.

Some people are having a hard time accepting that gone are the days when a small group of people organized into an institution pretty much had a monopoly on knowledge. Sadly, but it is so. That same profile of people also frowns upon digitalization of books, for example (under all sorts of pretexts), and things of the kind.

 

I do get a part of that thinking. The fact is that you do learn the best if you learn FROM the best and if you have access to the best. The fact is that whenever something goes en masse, the standards are automatically lowered because not only the best who teach and the best who learn are involved, but much larger varieties of people. The fact is that many (most?) curricula and online classes are pretty "dumbed down" compared to what used to be done, or what is still done in a milieu where people who teach are people who have dedicated their lives and career to that. There are exceptions.

 

However, I tend to think that most professors are more reasonable than that and realize that it is a good thing that more people than ever before are having an opportunity to reach higher levels of learning on their own than ever before. Even if somebody cannot teach a degree's worth of Latin at home, something they can do are still reasonable stepping stones and still far more than what they would have been able to do if they had lived a few generations back and were not lucky enough to be born into buorgeoisie or have access to excellent schools. I know it may be hard for some people to grasp it, but there are people who actually have an issue with it, because they feel threatened by it.

[Lisbeth]

We use Lukeion online, and I beg to differ. It is an excellent program.

[MicheleinMN]

I certainly hope that he or she is wrong! Dd is a classics major after learning Latin at home and with one online class. I'll let you know next spring when she's completed her first intermediate/advanced Latin course at college.

[DragonFaerie]

What do you think? She said you absolutely need someone who knows the language inside and out, even to teach the basics. She said the online courses are "cra*" and instill bad habits.

 

Thoughts?

 

To my mind, any sort of blanket statement like this is dubious at best and usually wrong, if for no other reason than the exceptions to the norm.

[Ellie]

I think your professor is prejudiced against homeschoolers, and she's a snob, to boot.

[NotSoObvious]

And there are plenty of general ed. teachers who do not believe homeschooling parents are capable of teaching their children ANYthing!

 

I can see where she's coming from, but her blanket statement with such exaggeration takes away any authority she might have had in my mind. I'm beginning to understand, at this point in my life, that extreme arrogance usually comes with extreme ignorance.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I had the same comment a few years ago, until the person sat down and looked at the books. Then he was reluctantly convinced... Hasn't stopped us from studying Latin and Greek.

[Faithr]

I thought of Nathaniel Bowditch too!

[Bluegoat]

I think it is too broad a statement, but it has some truth in it. I think with the earlier and more mechanical parts of Latin there would not be much issue. But once you get to doing some real translation of texts there is a big big advantage to have a guide who is really fluent in the nuances of the language.

[G5052]

There are some who blythely say that you can learn anything given the time and effort. Some of us aren't going to invest the time and effort though, so indeed not every homeschool parent is going to dive into Latin and be successful long-term.

 

I am a grammar geek and read and speak several languages. I teach a local high school Latin class using Henle, which consider an ideal curriculum for someone like me who isn't trained in Latin. Then last year my oldest passed me when it came to begin translating Latin literature and poetry. I was seriously holding him back, and we both knew it. Now he has a teacher who majored in Latin in college and who is taking him so much farther, and I have no regrets.

 

So yes, I can't match a trained Latin teacher, but I've done well at the beginning levels (basically Henle I and II) and admitted my limitations when the time came and delegated to someone better than me. What is wrong with that?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

People who don't believe a thing can be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.

 

Or they could offer to help.

[DragonFaerie]

People who don't believe a thing can be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.

 

Or they could offer to help.

 

Hehehe... I like this. :)

[Bloggermom]

My son is doing great with Latin with an online class and through things done at home.

[readinmom]

Isn't this what "they" said about teaching reading at home?

[Myeightkiddies]

I think your professor is prejudiced against homeschoolers, and she's a snob, to boot.

 

People who don't believe a thing can be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.

 

Or they could offer to help.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I believe that my adult children, who have retained most of what they learned - at home, would disagree with the professor's statement.

[WTMCassandra]

I have heard this line too. I think it is a standard "professional" line.

 

I am of two minds. For Latin, I think it is quite possible to go pretty far mastering the grammar at home. My daughter is far enough along now that she does benefit from an outside tutor translating with her as a supplement to our grammar studies at home. It keeps my daughter's interest and challenges her more than I could. For Greek, it is quite difficult and hard to get too far along without a tutor--I have used a tutor and found it worth every penny.

 

I agree with the "grain of truth" poster, I think. And I think the classics professor should NOT be so categorically dismissive.

[Bluegoat]

oops - ds posted what I'd written before!

[elegantlion]

I wonder how the professor teaches, and whether they would be aghast at some of the less lofty goals we set for our Latin students? I used to work for a vet who attended the Boston Latin School. He told me stories about how he was required to learn Latin, we don't come anywhere near that intensity. So if that is the perception of how you should teach, I can see his point. Not everyone sets an high academic goal with Latin. We're getting there, but it's taking us more years than I would like.

 

So my son's Latin education may look different that what would be acceptable to a classics professor. I don't personally care. However, we don't have the money to hire a tutor and he may not study the classics in college, so what we're doing now is best option for us. I see the benefits of Latin study, but I'm not so elitist to say that it's the "right" way or nothing.

[CAMom]

I haven't read any of the responses but my ds took 4 years of Latin through The Potter's School. He did very well on the National Latin Exam the year he took it. He also got a 690 on the SAT 2 Latin test.

 

Didn't seem like crap to me?;):)

While having an interactive, subject matter expert (who is also an expert in teaching, btw), is probably the best way for most people to learn, I think there's something else more important going on here.

 

Because of technology, we are entering a golden age for the autodidact. There is so much material now easily and inexpensively available on most any subject. Not just on-line texts, and scanned books, but message boards, Q&A fora, websites, and online video chat. It is more feasible now than ever for someone to teach themselves some new topic.

 

At the same time, because technology is moving so fast, our kids will need to continue learning more even after formal schooling is finished. I read somewhere that the average college graduate will having something like seven jobs after graduating, perhaps in seven different fields.

 

So, it's important for us to teach our kids how to learn on their own, even if it isn't as efficient as learning in a formal setting with a subject matter expert.

[DragonFaerie]

At the same time, because technology is moving so fast, our kids will need to continue learning more even after formal schooling is finished. I read somewhere that the average college graduate will having something like seven jobs after graduating, perhaps in seven different fields.

 

So, it's important for us to teach our kids how to learn on their own, even if it isn't as efficient as learning in a formal setting with a subject matter expert.

 

Excellent point.

[mcconnellboys]

The only bad experience my older son ever had was actually a real, live teacher, LOL.... He has had two semesters of Latin in college and did not experience difficulties with it because of having done Latin previously.... I'm afraid I'm always suspect of people who tend to set up one group as sacred priests possessing sacred knowledge that no others can access save through them....

 

Latin is a dead langauge. Speaking it is optional. Most in college are learning it in order to read works in their original language, not to attempt to speak it....

[Dmmetler]

My MS/HS Latin teacher friend strongly supports what I'm doing with DD and regularly suggests resources and sends me materials she's made for her middle school classes.

 

A high school Spanish teacher friend has said and does the same for us with Spanish.

 

In both cases, they feel that waiting until middle or high school to start a language is way too little, too late, and that it's better to take advantage of DD's interest NOW-even though I'm not an expert at either language.