Like a blog post, but I don't blog. Musings from a former homeschooler who teaches

[SeekingHim77]

So, here's my question for those of you who have worked with homeschoolers who struggle with the classroom experience. How long does it take them (on average) to acclimate?

[Nan in Mass]

They may never acclimatize. I have spoken to a few adult homeschoolers who never did. I'm not sure homeschooling had anything at all to do with that, except to provide them with an alternative way of learning. One called himself an autodidact and managed to put up with college long enough to get the piece of paper that allowed him to go where he wanted to go. He was rampantly against classroom education. He, however, had been educated in a school until he got old enough to realize that it was possible to refuse to go (14). He isn't the first like that I've met and from a homeschooling parent's perspective, they aren't very useful examples because most of them went to elementary school, middle school, and college. They learned how to manage in the classroom in elementary school, and they learned how to teach themselves in high school. Some found that college was a form of education that was just different enough from public school that they enjoyed it. Some were scornful of it but had done it anyway. Some had tried briefly and then become entrepreneurs or volunteer workers or something else that didn't require a college degree.

 

I've spoken to a number of teachers who dealt with homeschoolers. They all thought that homeschooling was absolutely wonderful up until high school. They all had serious doubts about the viability of homeschooling high school.

 

I've spoken to a few people who were homeschooled until college and then went to an alternative style college which was very like homeschooling. They were doing fine. They had been homeschooled in a very loose way, one which allowed them to develop a passion, one that had grown to the point where they needed a college to continue to develop that passion. They were lopsized but very happy people.

 

I have not spoken to many who went from homeschooling in a more traditional academic way to a traditional college. I have spoken to a few college students who knew somebody who had. They had a very dim opinion of their friends' abilities to interact with their peers, especially the opposite sex. They said they were about middle school level when it came to peer interactions.

 

I think it is extremely hard to get useful answers to this question other than the general one of making sure you are covering things like writing, math, foreign languages, and science well (all places that I"ve heard mothers complain are hard), and making sure your student has plenty of opportunity to interact on his own with the world and do hard things on his own.

 

Nan

 

ETA - And now please go read the rest of this post here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3164615&posted=1#post3164615

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Mom0012]

They may never acclimatize. I have spoken to a few adult homeschoolers who never did. I'm not sure homeschooling had anything at all to do with that, except to provide them with an alternative way of learning. One called himself an autodidact and managed to put up with college long enough to get the piece of paper that allowed him to go where he wanted to go. He was rampantly against classroom education. He, however, had been educated in a school until he got old enough to realize that it was possible to refuse to go (14). He isn't the first like that I've met and from a homeschooling parent's perspective, they aren't very useful examples because most of them went to elementary school, middle school, and college. They learned how to manage in the classroom in elementary school, and they learned how to teach themselves in high school. Some found that college was a form of education that was just different enough from public school that they enjoyed it. Some were scornful of it but had done it anyway. Some had tried briefly and then become entrepreneurs or volunteer workers or something else that didn't require a college degree.

 

I've spoken to a number of teachers who dealt with homeschoolers. They all thought that homeschooling was absolutely wonderful up until high school. They all had serious doubts about the viability of homeschooling high school.

 

I've spoken to a few people who were homeschooled until college and then went to an alternative style college which was very like homeschooling. They were doing fine. They had been homeschooled in a very loose way, one which allowed them to develop a passion, one that had grown to the point where they needed a college to continue to develop that passion. They were lopsized but very happy people.

 

I have not spoken to many who went from homeschooling in a more traditional academic way to a traditional college. I have spoken to a few college students who knew somebody who had. They had a very dim opinion of their friends' abilities to interact with their peers, especially the opposite sex. They said they were about middle school level when it came to peer interactions.

 

I think it is extremely hard to get useful answers to this question other than the general one of making sure you are covering things like writing, math, foreign languages, and science well (all places that I"ve heard mothers complain are hard), and making sure your student has plenty of opportunity to interact on his own with the world and do hard things on his own.

 

Nan

 

I'm so surprised to hear you say this. I thought you had successfully homeschooled at least one child through high school? Do I just have my facts wrong or did it not turn out well? I always really respect your opinion, so I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

Honestly, this whole thread is making me feel as though I cannot homeschool my children through high school and I should be looking for a job so that I can send them to a good private school. Prior to reading all this, I felt completely confident in my abilities. The comments about my children still being socially prepubescent as college students scare me more than the academics do.

 

Lisa

Edited September 21, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Really? That's the lens through which you view this thread?

 

Nice play on the Greek and Latin recitations card. :glare:

 

Joanne, graduating in 81 days Summa Cum Laude with a Masters, taught Language Arts and Math today

 

She's not the only one who views this thread through that lens.

 

I liked her play on the Greek and Latin recitations cards. It proves she has something better to do with her time!

 

I have to wonder why those who seem so anti-homeschooling (even after having spent time participating in it) would spend so much of their lives on homeschooling boards that are supposed to be offering "support."

[OnTheBrink]

I'm so surprised to hear you say this. I thought you had successfully homeschooled at least one child through high school? Do I just have my facts wrong or did it not turn out well? I always really respect your opinion, so I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

Honestly, this whole thread is making me feel as though I cannot homeschool my children through high school and I should be looking for a job so that I can send them to a good private school. Prior to reading all this, I felt completely confident in my abilities. The comments about my children still being socially prepubescent as college students scare me more than the academics do.

 

Lisa

 

Please don't allow anecdotal "evidence" from strangers on a message board to influence your children's future and education. Think about why you're homeschooling and about your goals for them academically and otherwise and plan accordingly.

 

She's not the only one who views this thread through that lens.

 

I liked her play on the Greek and Latin recitations cards. It proves she has something better to do with her time!

 

I have to wonder why those who seem so anti-homeschooling (even after having spent time participating in it) would spend so much of their lives on homeschooling boards that are supposed to be offering "support."

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Please don't allow anecdotal "evidence" from strangers on a message board to influence your children's future and education. Think about why you're homeschooling and about your goals for them academically and otherwise and plan accordingly.

 

On my end, the nay-sayers have no impact at all on my decisions. I have enough families in my life who prove this is a good road. My main point is to wonder why they would spend so much time here if they are so against it?? Weird!! At any given moment of the day, there is something more worthwhile to me than going to some message board to try to defeat those who are doing something I either dislike, disagree with, or didn't succeed in.

Edited September 21, 2011 by FiveOaksAcademy

[FiveOaksAcademy]

So now we've gone from needing to love :001_wub: Mommy-taught co-ops to needing to go to public school or else the kids will have a helluva time going to college because homeschoolers are such notorious losers.

 

:001_huh:

 

This is nuts.

 

Of course there are homeschoolers who are total losers. Every demographic has its total losers. But I'm not going to send my son to Stupid School down the street where only 19% of boys even graduate (without honors) just because of these horror stories. I'm pretty sure that the skills and knowledge he uses to navigate a Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue Mission might get him through his first day of college, but I could be wrong. He could go in there like a bumbling doofus and come home crying from the total stress of having to find his classes all by his little self.

 

I'll be sure to update.

 

People, read TWTM and follow it. If you aren't a loser, your homeschooled kid won't be a loser. Take a few days off of these "support" forums if all this negativity is making you fear your homeschooled child will spend his 21st birthday sipping Ripple in an alley instead of making something of himself.

 

I know I'll be taking a few days off. I think my time would be better spent listening to my son's Greek and Latin recitations than listening to these litanies of woe from people who claim to believe in homeschooling.

 

Awesome post!! My favorite yet!! :D

[Soror]

On the close-mindedness- I see it that way as well. It is closed minded in not seeing that we are all shaped by our perceptions and life experiences and there are different people that have went through the same experiences and have a different opinion. It is not the one right opinion and not one that everyone forms. It is also closed minded in the idea that the place you are currently at is a finished place- I believe a pp was spot on with her suggestion on the next step in the thinking process.

 

I don't find it discouraging in the least, although I perceive it to be that way. I am confident in our ability to hs for however long. We are hs'ing based on goals and will do whatever is needed to achieve those needs. This is one area my arrogance and determination is a plus I think.

 

As to the social skills, considering what is often considered "mature." I'm not sure I consider that a negative. I have a class of PSR kids and there was a hs kid in this group last year that the other teacher labeled as immature. Mature in this setting seems to be inability to listen and totally immersed in pop culture.

[OnTheBrink]

On my end, the nay-sayers have no impact at all on my decisions. I have enough families in my life who prove this is a good road. My main point is to wonder why they would spend so much time here if they are so against it?? Weird!! At any given moment of the day, there is something more worthwhile to me than going to some message board to try to defeat those who are doing something I either dislike, disagree with, or didn't succeed in.

 

Sorry! I meant to post an "I agree!" to your post. I'm on my phone and it's hard to see everything! LOL

[mommymilkies]

I'm so surprised to hear you say this. I thought you had successfully homeschooled at least one child through high school? Do I just have my facts wrong or did it not turn out well? I always really respect your opinion, so I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

Honestly, this whole thread is making me feel as though I cannot homeschool my children through high school and I should be looking for a job so that I can send them to a good private school. Prior to reading all this, I felt completely confident in my abilities. The comments about my children still being socially prepubescent as college students scare me more than the academics do.

 

Lisa

 

Don't be disheartened! I have only known one homeschooler IRL who had trouble. And that was more because the poor kid was so horribly overprotected that he had never crossed the street without holding hands. Don't allow a few anecdotal scare stories change your mind-let your real evidence in your life and in your home decide it. Because comparing some homeschoolers who supposedly do not robotically follow the herd in class is really ridiculous, IMO. Think about how many public schooled kids never even come close to graduating high school. If you do your best and you care about your kid's education, you're far ahead of the game.

[justamouse]

On my end, the nay-sayers have no impact at all on my decisions. I have enough families in my life who prove this is a good road. My main point is to wonder why they would spend so much time here if they are so against it?? Weird!! At any given moment of the day, there is something more worthwhile to me than going to some message board to try to defeat those who are doing something I either dislike, disagree with, or didn't succeed in.

 

It's not all naysaying. Take from it that there are serious pitfalls. Take from it that homeschooling is hard WORK. It's harder than working outside the home.

 

Some of us read the elementary boards and shudder. We've BTDT, and who said it's that homeschooling has gone mainstream? Yes, that's it.

Yes, there are losers in both PS and homeschooling, but don't let that loser be YOU.

 

In writing there are pansters and outliners. Now, on the surface it looks like pansters just sit and write a novel. That's not the case. There's a lot of mental preparation that they do before they type the first word. then there are outliners who plan it all out on paper, have wall sized arc boards, sticky notes everywhere and notebooks filled.

 

Both ways of writing are valid. Both ways of homeschooling are valid.

 

BUT The problem is the newbies who see the pantser and assume that there is NO preparation. They sit to do this homeschool thing and then it all hits the fan because hey, there's more work involved (because most of the time, they don't think of the holes in their OWN education, and school themselves while they school the kids)!

 

Now, when it comes to a novel, it's not the end of the world when you learn from your mistakes and realize that hey, one does not just sit down one day and write a book. If you make that mistake in a book, it's OK, you can write another.

 

You can't make that mistake with your kids. You get no second chances.

Edited September 21, 2011 by justamouse

[Joanne]

So, here's my question for those of you who have worked with homeschoolers who struggle with the classroom experience. How long does it take them (on average) to acclimate?

 

FWIW, as the OP, the concerns I presented encompass a lot more than "classroom" acculturation.

 

To answer your question, "how long" depends on a lot of factors. One of those factors is age of the child, and how the parent approaches the transition.

[Mom0012]

On the close-mindedness- I see it that way as well. It is closed minded in not seeing that we are all shaped by our perceptions and life experiences and there are different people that have went through the same experiences and have a different opinion. It is not the one right opinion and not one that everyone forms. It is also closed minded in the idea that the place you are currently at is a finished place- I believe a pp was spot on with her suggestion on the next step in the thinking process.

 

I don't find it discouraging in the least, although I perceive it to be that way. I am confident in our ability to hs for however long. We are hs'ing based on goals and will do whatever is needed to achieve those needs. This is one area my arrogance and determination is a plus I think.

 

As to the social skills, considering what is often considered "mature." I'm not sure I consider that a negative. I have a class of PSR kids and there was a hs kid in this group last year that the other teacher labeled as immature. Mature in this setting seems to be inability to listen and totally immersed in pop culture.

 

This is what I have wondered. Are they "socially immature" because they have not been immersed in pop culture? I see that immersion as negative. I do have my kids participate in many different activities and do allow them some exposure to pop culture, but I'm not going to immerse them in it.

 

Lisa

[Nan in Mass]

No no no. I was listing off my data base, which happens not to have any successful examples of children thriving happily in college after homeschooling high school. EXCEPT FOR MANY PEOPLE HERE. It doesn't mean there aren't any or that I don't believe it can't be done. I just think that many people homeschool BECAUSE school does not work for their children. Their children are wired differently or they have quirky personalities or they are lopsided in their interests or they are too bright or they are too wiggly or their bodies are too fragile or their interests are all non-academic or whatever. College, although it can be a much better form of school, is still school, and whatever made school not work in the first place may still make it not work. Or the child might have grown out of what-ever-it-was and like college.

 

I have been told my whole life that I will get used to things that I never have gotten used to. I have learned how to manage, sometimes, but there are many situations to which I have never aclimatized. School is one of them. It worries me that so many people assume that managing school is just a matter of learning coping skills. There is another piece. The student has to WANT to manage. That is HUGE. That is what that whole thread about that article listing his homeschooling mistakes was about.

 

I have three sons. My husband and I hated school. We love learning but we hated school. College was a huge improvement, but we still didn't like going, even though we were grateful for the information and friends we aquired. My three sons don't like school any better than we did. The reasons have very little to do with social skills and academics and everything to do with our pretty idyllic home life, so there isn't much that can be done about it other than downgrade our home life. For obvious reasons, we would rather not do that GRIN. My two older ones are at college and my younger one is taking some community college classes along with working with me. The two older ones are not liking college any better than we did. This is no surprise to any of us. For what they want to do, they need a college degree. And the college experience, whether it is enjoyed at the time or not, is recognized to be a very valuable part of my clan's culture, one nobody wants to skip.

 

I'm going to ctrl c this into the other post before I discourage any other people. Sigh.

 

Honestly, it is my family that makes school not a good thing. A really good private school, yes. Homeschooling is ok. Public school is a bad idea for my family even though we have a nice one. It is just my family... My children are managing in college, all three. The oldest (homeschooled middle school only) is on dean's list. The one who is wired differently is having to take some things twice (like calculus) but this is absolutely no surprise to any of us. Sending him to public school just would have made it so that he didn't learn much at school, didn't have the time to learn out of school, and became sarcastic and stopped trying rather than remaining sweet and trying hard to succeed at academics. It is too soon to tell about the youngest. Our biggest hesitation in homeschooling was that it would allow our children to know that there was a way out of school and that once they knew that, they would never choose to go to college and they might refuse to hold down a weekday job. In other words, they might not learn to make themselves do hard unpalatable things for years in order to obtain a very desirable goal. That, to our vast relief, has not happened. There. That is an uncomfortably frank assessment of my family. And maybe it explains my ambivalent post.

 

Now go read the first half of the summing up. Please? http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3165415#poststop

 

 

 

Nan

Edited September 21, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

As I keep saying in this thread, I think you can homeschool high school. It is hard work. You probably will have to outsource some things. You have to make sure your child's world expands and he has plenty of opportunity to develop social skills (not just friendly ones but how to defuse hostile situations, how to get help, how to speak up for himself) and learns how to do hard things on his own. You have to give some thought to how you are going to validate your mummy transcript if you are applying to college, and to making sure that your child has enough classroom and academic skills to survive college. Homeschooling high school can be wonderful. You get to really get to know your children and spend lots of time with them. : )

Nan

[Mom0012]

On my end, the nay-sayers have no impact at all on my decisions. I have enough families in my life who prove this is a good road. My main point is to wonder why they would spend so much time here if they are so against it?? Weird!! At any given moment of the day, there is something more worthwhile to me than going to some message board to try to defeat those who are doing something I either dislike, disagree with, or didn't succeed in.

 

I wonder about this as well. I need to remind myself that most of the truly negative posts are anecdotal stories from people who are not even homeschooling. I can't see myself joining a public school support forum and sharing the horrors of public education.

 

Lisa

[Word Nerd]

I have to wonder why those who seem so anti-homeschooling (even after having spent time participating in it) would spend so much of their lives on homeschooling boards that are supposed to be offering "support."

 

I have to wonder why some see any criticism or questioning of homeschooling—even when the goal is to improve home education and encourage homeschoolers to take that responsibility seriously—as "anti-homeschooling."

[Mom0012]

No no no. I was listing off my data base, which happens not to have any successful examples of children thriving happily in college after homeschooling high school. EXCEPT FOR MANY PEOPLE HERE. It doesn't mean there aren't any or that I don't believe it can't be done. I just think that many people homeschool BECAUSE school does not work for their children. Their children are wired differently or they have quirky personalities or they are lopsided in their interests or they are too bright or they are too wiggly or their bodies are too fragile or their interests are all non-academic or whatever. College, although it can be a much better form of school, is still school, and whatever made school not work in the first place may still make it not work. Or the child might have grown out of what-ever-it-was and like college.

 

I have been told my whole life that I will get used to things that I never have gotten used to. I have learned how to manage, sometimes, but there are many situations to which I have never aclimatized. School is one of them. It worries me that so many people assume that managing school is just a matter of learning coping skills. There is another piece. The student has to WANT to manage. That is HUGE. That is what that whole thread about that article listing his homeschooling mistakes was about.

 

I have three sons. My husband and I hated school. We love learning but we hated school. College was a huge improvement, but we still didn't like going, even though we were grateful for the information and friends we aquired. My three sons don't like school any better than we did. The reasons have very little to do with social skills and academics and everything to do with our pretty idyllic home life, so there isn't much that can be done about it other than downgrade our home life. For obvious reasons, we would rather not do that GRIN. My two older ones are at college and my younger one is taking some community college classes along with working with me. The two older ones are not liking college any better than we did. This is no surprise to any of us. For what they want to do, they need a college degree. And the college experience, whether it is enjoyed at the time or not, is recognized to be a very valuable part of my clan's culture, one nobody wants to skip.

 

I'm going to ctrl c this into the other post before I discourage any other people. Sigh.

 

Honestly, it is my family that makes school not a good thing. A really good private school, yes. Homeschooling is ok. Public school is a bad idea for my family even though we have a nice one. It is just my family... My children are managing in college, all three. The oldest (homeschooled middle school only) is on dean's list. The one who is wired differently is having to take some things twice (like calculus) but this is absolutely no surprise to any of us. Sending him to public school just would have made it so that he didn't learn much at school, didn't have the time to learn out of school, and became sarcastic and stopped trying rather than remaining sweet and trying hard to succeed at academics. It is too soon to tell about the youngest. Our biggest hesitation in homeschooling was that it would allow our children to know that there was a way out of school and that once they knew that, they would never choose to go to college and they might refuse to hold down a weekday job. In other words, they might not learn to make themselves do hard unpalatable things for years in order to obtain a very desirable goal. That, to our vast relief, has not happened. There. That is an uncomfortably frank assessment of my family. And maybe it explains my ambivalent post.

 

Nan

 

Thanks, Nan, for clarifying. I can relate to much of what you say about people homeschooling because school did not work for them or their children. My kids have never been to school, but I hated school and my son is excelling at home even though he has some learning differences that might have made school a real challenge. So, I get that some kids may be more challenged in a school environment whether they are homeschooled or not.

 

Lisa

Edited September 21, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[EKS]

I have to wonder why some see any criticism or questioning of homeschooling—even when the goal is to improve home education and encourage homeschoolers to take that responsibility seriously—as "anti-homeschooling."

 

:iagree:

 

Again, I think this topic is extremely important and something we should be discussing *at length* here. It has nothing to do with being anti-homeschooling. It has everything to do with being *realistic* about homeschooling.

[momma2three]

I have to wonder why some see any criticism or questioning of homeschooling—even when the goal is to improve home education and encourage homeschoolers to take that responsibility seriously—as "anti-homeschooling."

 

:iagree:

[Audrey]

It's not all naysaying. Take from it that there are serious pitfalls. Take from it that homeschooling is hard WORK. It's harder than working outside the home.

 

Some of us read the elementary boards and shudder. We've BTDT, and who said it's that homeschooling has gone mainstream? Yes, that's it.

Yes, there are losers in both PS and homeschooling, but don't let that loser be YOU.

 

In writing there are pansters and outliners. Now, on the surface it looks like pansters just sit and write a novel. That's not the case. There's a lot of mental preparation that they do before they type the first word. then there are outliners who plan it all out on paper, have wall sized arc boards, sticky notes everywhere and notebooks filled.

 

Both ways of writing are valid. Both ways of homeschooling are valid.

 

BUT The problem is the newbies who see the pantser and assume that there is NO preparation. They sit to do this homeschool thing and then it all hits the fan because hey, there's more work involved (because most of the time, they don't think of the holes in their OWN education, and school themselves while they school the kids)!

 

Now, when it comes to a novel, it's not the end of the world when you learn from your mistakes and realize that hey, one does not just sit down one day and write a book. If you make that mistake in a book, it's OK, you can write another.

 

You can't make that mistake with your kids. You get no second chances.

 

Excellent post. I firmly believe that homeschooling is a job that requires consistent commitment and hard work. If you do not have the capacity to apply consistent commitment and hard work then you have no business homeschooling.

 

Many people get to a point in their lives where, even if they could apply consistent commitment and hard work before, they can no longer do that. Life circumstances change. S#!t happens. Public school is not the devil and homeschooling is not a hill upon which to sacrifice the well-being of your family.

 

I think it behooves one to be open to re-evaluating their capacity to homeschool at least annually. That's not discouraging. That's simply acknowledging reality.

[Jennifer3141]

Excellent post. I firmly believe that homeschooling is a job that requires consistent commitment and hard work. If you do not have the capacity to apply consistent commitment and hard work then you have no business homeschooling.

 

Many people get to a point in their lives where, even if they could apply consistent commitment and hard work before, they can no longer do that. Life circumstances change. S#!t happens. Public school is not the devil and homeschooling is not a hill upon which to sacrifice the well-being of your family.

 

I think it behooves one to be open to re-evaluating their capacity to homeschool at least annually. That's not discouraging. That's simply acknowledging reality.

 

 

:iagree: Excellent points, Audrey!

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I have to wonder why some see any criticism or questioning of homeschooling—even when the goal is to improve home education and encourage homeschoolers to take that responsibility seriously—as "anti-homeschooling."

 

Hmmm, I guess if you feel that is what is being done, then that is your perspective. I wasn't seeing much of that. I have no issue with people wanting to hold a standard for homeschooling (though I hope the public school system doesn't wind up being that standard). I DO have a problem with those who come and make it seem to newbies like it is something they shouldn't be or can't do.

[MIch elle]

Excellent post. I firmly believe that homeschooling is a job that requires consistent commitment and hard work. If you do not have the capacity to apply consistent commitment and hard work then you have no business homeschooling.

 

Many people get to a point in their lives where, even if they could apply consistent commitment and hard work before, they can no longer do that. Life circumstances change. S#!t happens. Public school is not the devil and homeschooling is not a hill upon which to sacrifice the well-being of your family.

 

I think it behooves one to be open to re-evaluating their capacity to homeschool at least annually. That's not discouraging. That's simply acknowledging reality.

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, this is NOT about bashing or trying to discourage homeschooling but about helping one another by learning from the good and the bad of one another's experiences.

[melissel]

Well. I've been reading this thread from the beginning, and here is what I am now taking away from it. Maybe this will explain why others are finding it so discouraging.

 

It seems that Joanne and many others are saying that if you can't homeschool PERFECTLY, then you should accept that you should throw up your hands and give up. If you can't manage your children and their attitude toward their chores and schoolwork perfectly (by the way, loser!), if you can't ensure that they learn every subject at the exact level they'll need when they get to college (which, by the way, will put you through the wringer in the application process because most of their HSed students are loser dropouts), if you can't ensure that they have opportunities to interact with their peers the way building-school kids do (so they don't go to college interacting at a middle-school level), if you can't ensure that they go to college knowing how to open a locker and find their classes using a compass and blueprint of the original plans of the buildings--if you can't get every single one of these things right, go back to work and find a good private school. That's what it feels like this thread is saying to us.

 

Also, for some of the veterans on the board to lament about the "losers" who are struggling and asking for help and support with parenting issues and schooling issues...well, that just sucks. I find it very hard to believe that you didn't have ANY conflicts with your kids and crises in your schooling methods and struggles with figuring out how you teach best and how your kids learn best. I think it's a shame that people post here in vulnerable moments to ask for support and advice from veterans, only to be roasted by them in another thread and used as examples of why homeschooling as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

Wow. I have never felt so discouraged about HSing as I do right now. And I'm pretty dang hard on myself in general. I didn't feel that way through most of the thread, but I surely do now. There's no way that I'll be able to hit every single crucial element at the top level, whether I use the WTM faithfully or not. I'm not sure why I'm bothering now.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Never mind. I shouldn't have gotten sucked in in the first place!!!!!!!!

Edited September 21, 2011 by FiveOaksAcademy

[Aelwydd]

Well. I've been reading this thread from the beginning, and here is what I am now taking away from it. Maybe this will explain why others are finding it so discouraging.

 

It seems that Joanne and many others are saying that if you can't homeschool PERFECTLY, then you should accept that you should throw up your hands and give up.

 

 

Melissel, again, I can't speak for others, but I know I have not said any such thing on this thread. I have argued for competence--not perfection. I have also contended that many of the problems facing home schoolers are systemic in nature, i.e., the overall downward trend of an educated populace as a whole. And that potentially affects all students, in all modes of schooling.

[melissel]

Is this post for real? Or is it an "Onion" like hyperbole?

 

Because it is so absurd in response to the issues in this thread, and the content offered, that I can only assume it is intentional and I'm clueless as to how that's not obvious.

 

Completely serious. And I'm not just referring to your post. There have been plenty of other posts in the thread that have held the same "doom on you" tone. That's how the whole thread feels to me. And obviously to others too. I know you can't see it, because you're on the other side of your journey. But to many of us on this side of the journey, this is what the thread feels like. I can go through and pull specific quotes if it helps you understand where I'm coming from.

[Jean in Newcastle]

They may never acclimatize. I have spoken to a few adult homeschoolers who never did. I'm not sure homeschooling had anything at all to do with that, except to provide them with an alternative way of learning. One called himself an autodidact and managed to put up with college long enough to get the piece of paper that allowed him to go where he wanted to go. He was rampantly against classroom education. He, however, had been educated in a school until he got old enough to realize that it was possible to refuse to go (14). He isn't the first like that I've met and from a homeschooling parent's perspective, they aren't very useful examples because most of them went to elementary school, middle school, and college. They learned how to manage in the classroom in elementary school, and they learned how to teach themselves in high school. Some found that college was a form of education that was just different enough from public school that they enjoyed it. Some were scornful of it but had done it anyway. Some had tried briefly and then become entrepreneurs or volunteer workers or something else that didn't require a college degree.

 

I've spoken to a number of teachers who dealt with homeschoolers. They all thought that homeschooling was absolutely wonderful up until high school. They all had serious doubts about the viability of homeschooling high school.

 

I've spoken to a few people who were homeschooled until college and then went to an alternative style college which was very like homeschooling. They were doing fine. They had been homeschooled in a very loose way, one which allowed them to develop a passion, one that had grown to the point where they needed a college to continue to develop that passion. They were lopsized but very happy people.

 

I have not spoken to many who went from homeschooling in a more traditional academic way to a traditional college. I have spoken to a few college students who knew somebody who had. They had a very dim opinion of their friends' abilities to interact with their peers, especially the opposite sex. They said they were about middle school level when it came to peer interactions.

 

I think it is extremely hard to get useful answers to this question other than the general one of making sure you are covering things like writing, math, foreign languages, and science well (all places that I"ve heard mothers complain are hard), and making sure your student has plenty of opportunity to interact on his own with the world and do hard things on his own.

 

Nan

 

ETA - And now please go read the rest of this post here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3164615&posted=1#post3164615

 

 

I'm sorry Nan. I admire so much of what you say because it is so objective. But this bothers me because it it isn't objective. Of course, some people don't acclimatize to a formal academic setting. Some people are in one for over 12 years and never acclimatize. Of course, some people are awkward and geeky or nerdy or shy or in some way don't fit in. Some have been trying to fit in for over 12 years or else just found one other geeky person to hang out with. The problem is, if that person is a homeschooler, it is automatically assumed that the person's aversion to formal settings is because they homeschool. And if someone is socially awkward in some way, it is automatically assumed that it is because they were homeschooled.

 

I think the only time these sorts of things can be truly laid at the doorstep of homeschooling (in a cause and effect sort of way) is when there has been purposeful isolation. But even then, I think you will find that the person has acclimatized himself to the subculture that their family belongs to and in that case the homeschooling is often just another mark of that subculture. Honestly, if you take people from a number of more isolated subcultures which have their own formal education (like a Hasidic Jew for example) they are going to look "odd" from a mainstream culture perspective even though they will look perfectly normal from their subculture's perspective.

[9763653]

I want to say that for me, as a new homeschooler, this thread has been extremely interesting. It should not be too difficult for any homeschooler to entertain the thought that homeschooling - just like public schooling - can be of poor quality. But, unlike with a public school situation, homeschooling always brings the advantage that we, the parents, can positively change things that need changing.

 

Hearing about possible pitfalls is extremely useful. Denying the possibility of negative consequences is a bad idea. We are currently homeschooling through first grade, so I am very much at the beginning of my journey as a homeschool mom. While I am convinced that homeschooling is the best choice for my family, some aspects of it daunt me. I prefer hearing about specific issues that might apply to my children now, right at the beginning, so I can make changes if required.

 

Parenting is a huge responsibility, and that includes education (regardless of how parents choose to educate their children). Homeschooling obviously adds a specific kind of responsibility that parents of public school children don't have. I want to do the best job I possibly can, and these discussions are very useful.

 

Sometimes, homeschoolers must lack accountability (depending on regulations where you live). I assume everyone also has gaps in their own education and knowledge. I've already found myself wondering whether I am making the right choice numerous times. Though I concluded that I am, every time, I think the quality of education and other aspects of a child's life need constant self-scrutiny.

 

Ha! That was a long ramble that really means "thanks for the great discussion", from a newbie!

[9763653]

They may never acclimatize. I have spoken to a few adult homeschoolers who never did.

 

Let's not forget that this is not exclusive to homeschoolers. I attended public school and never did well in a classroom environment. A lot of these things depend on the individual. Perhaps, homeschooling is the better choice for these students who don't cope well with classroom situations.

 

And, in my experience, not doing well with classroom situations does not necessarily translate to other areas of life, like social situations or work.

[momma2three]

I came here from another message board where everyone was always positive about homeschooling, no matter what.

 

People would post that their 9 year old can't read, hates to hold a pencil, and the only math they do is cooking. And I would sit there and think "omg, send that child to public school!" but all of the other posters would come in with "at least he's not at public school!" and with stories of some homeschooled child who didn't learn to read until he was 12 and is now at Harvard, or something like that.

 

I have to say that I found that a lot more dispiriting than this conversation. Those endless "everything is sunny even if it's not" posts were horrifying to me. It should be obvious to anyone that some things succeed, and some don't, and that homeschooling isn't any different.

 

I really like the honesty on this thread. I don't think that anyone has said "you can't homeschool for high school" or "your homeschooled student is doomed to live, unsocialized and jobless, in your basement forever." I really like that voices of experience can freely offer criticism of what they see and what they hear, so that newer homeschoolers like me can modify our plans accordingly.

 

I think it's really unfair to say that the OP doesn't belong here or that she's anti-homeschooling. I don't think those things at all.

[Aelwydd]

I want to say that for me, as a new homeschooler, this thread has been extremely interesting.

 

Hearing about possible pitfalls is extremely useful. Denying the possibility of negative consequences is a bad idea.

 

 

You are like the fourth or fifth newbie hs'er to say something to that effect. I congratulate you on your choice to hs, and even more so, on your willingness to consider all data and weigh it objectively. Just to be clear, I personally have no reservations about your ability to educate your children up through high school.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Also, for some of the veterans on the board to lament about the "losers" who are struggling and asking for help and support with parenting issues and schooling issues...well, that just sucks. I find it very hard to believe that you didn't have ANY conflicts with your kids and crises in your schooling methods and struggles with figuring out how you teach best and how your kids learn best. I think it's a shame that people post here in vulnerable moments to ask for support and advice from veterans, only to be roasted by them in another thread and used as examples of why homeschooling as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

:grouphug:

 

I have often thought that the many threads on this board started by moms struggling with homeschooling could potentially provide naysayers the best possible argument against homeschooling. How many of us have posted when discouraged and/or struggling, newbies and veterans alike? This group of newbies is certainly not the first to struggle. They will not be the last. I have never believed that struggling HSers need to hear, "There, there. Really, you're doing super!" even when they are not. I do believe in reality checks. I do believe the advice should be buck up and get organized. Buck up and get going. Look at what you're doing wrong and fix it. But it shouldn't be with a tone of condescension or hypocrisy. That helps no one.

 

I know you can't see it, because you're on the other side of your journey. But to many of us on this side of the journey, this is what the thread feels like.

 

Yes, perception changes with experience. And apparently, memories fade, along with any tolerance for the feelings of vulnerability that may arise due to being in an earlier stage of the process.

 

I believe you can still view the old boards out in cyber-land. It would be interesting to read the struggles of this same group of folks 10 years ago. There are seasons to everything. Even going to the last page of threads when the board began in 2008 proved very interesting for me a few days ago.

[Joanne]

I'm sorry Nan. I admire so much of what you say because it is so objective. But this bothers me because it it isn't objective. Of course, some people don't acclimatize to a formal academic setting. Some people are in one for over 12 years and never acclimatize. Of course, some people are awkward and geeky or nerdy or shy or in some way don't fit in. Some have been trying to fit in for over 12 years or else just found one other geeky person to hang out with. The problem is, if that person is a homeschooler, it is automatically assumed that the person's aversion to formal settings is because they homeschool. And if someone is socially awkward in some way, it is automatically assumed that it is because they were homeschooled.

 

I think the only time these sorts of things can be truly laid at the doorstep of homeschooling (in a cause and effect sort of way) is when there has been purposeful isolation. But even then, I think you will find that the person has acclimatized himself to the subculture that their family belongs to and in that case the homeschooling is often just another mark of that subculture. Honestly, if you take people from a number of more isolated subcultures which have their own formal education (like a Hasidic Jew for example) they are going to look "odd" from a mainstream culture perspective even though they will look perfectly normal from their subculture's perspective.

 

I get it. Rater's bias. I've posted about it on this forum, and also on parenting forums. People tend to process information and observations through filters in their mind. If a person knows the homeschooling background of a student, it is quite possible that the person making conclusions is doing so through the "that is a homeschooler" bias.

 

It happens with parenting, too. An aggressive child, for example, can be assumed to be aggressive because:

 

1. The parent spanks and teaches the child violence;might makes right

 

or

 

2. The parent does not discipline, and therefore the child has not learned rules and boundaries.

 

(It happens frequently with infant feeding issues, too. Breastfed babies are clingy; formula fed babies are less attached)

[2cents]

Well. I've been reading this thread from the beginning, and here is what I am now taking away from it. Maybe this will explain why others are finding it so discouraging.

 

It seems that Joanne and many others are saying that if you can't homeschool PERFECTLY, then you should accept that you should throw up your hands and give up. If you can't manage your children and their attitude toward their chores and schoolwork perfectly (by the way, loser!), if you can't ensure that they learn every subject at the exact level they'll need when they get to college (which, by the way, will put you through the wringer in the application process because most of their HSed students are loser dropouts), if you can't ensure that they have opportunities to interact with their peers the way building-school kids do (so they don't go to college interacting at a middle-school level), if you can't ensure that they go to college knowing how to open a locker and find their classes using a compass and blueprint of the original plans of the buildings--if you can't get every single one of these things right, go back to work and find a good private school. That's what it feels like this thread is saying to us.

 

Also, for some of the veterans on the board to lament about the "losers" who are struggling and asking for help and support with parenting issues and schooling issues...well, that just sucks. I find it very hard to believe that you didn't have ANY conflicts with your kids and crises in your schooling methods and struggles with figuring out how you teach best and how your kids learn best. I think it's a shame that people post here in vulnerable moments to ask for support and advice from veterans, only to be roasted by them in another thread and used as examples of why homeschooling as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

Wow. I have never felt so discouraged about HSing as I do right now. And I'm pretty dang hard on myself in general. I didn't feel that way through most of the thread, but I surely do now. There's no way that I'll be able to hit every single crucial element at the top level, whether I use the WTM faithfully or not. I'm not sure why I'm bothering now.

 

I felt for you when I read this. :grouphug:

 

Please know that this is only a forum and many of the things you read may not accurately reflect what is really going on. I've been hsing for many years and have read a lot of recommendations/opinions and some is worth considering and some is useless to me. It all depends on your own journey. I've taken one through hsing and he is in college and doing very well. He was my 'test case' and he is fine. He lives in a dorm and hasn't had any problems fitting in and conducts himself just fine in social situations. We tried coops and found they didn't work for us so ditched them and went for more structured classes offered by museums and other outside businesses. That was our personal decision. We did dual enrollment too. We didn't set out to specifically LOOK for social interaction. It just happens naturally. Please don't let some of the things you read on a forum cause you to over-analyze and stress. Proceed how you and your family feel is working best for you and always be cautious about things that cause you to doubt yourself. Homeschooling is really not as hard as this thread may appear to make it. ;)

[Aelwydd]

Completely serious. And I'm not just referring to your post. There have been plenty of other posts in the thread that have held the same "doom on you" tone. That's how the whole thread feels to me. And obviously to others too. I know you can't see it, because you're on the other side of your journey. But to many of us on this side of the journey, this is what the thread feels like. I can go through and pull specific quotes if it helps you understand where I'm coming from.

 

Ok, not relating here at all. I'm the parent of a third grader. I'm hardly on the "other side," (and geez, does that sound...post-geriatric). I don't perceive a "doom" feel at all. What I perceive is some very frank discussion about what happens when some parents don't apply meaningful standards to home schooling. And how that can be compounded by other factors, which may or may not be applicable to home schoolers elsewhere.

 

I honestly think the problem is Joanne approached sharing this as she would sharing her thoughts with academic peers. And then, some others here responded in like manner, sharing their observations and critiques. I have participated on enough academic and professional boards to recognize a similar tone here. But others are not responding to it that way; they are taking it, well...like a discussion board. Where criticism is being translated as a diagnosis of their own particular situation.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Aelwydd]

:lol: Well, I've used as much of my manners as I could muster in this thread. I can only imagine your opinion of me if I really let loose here. :tongue_smilie:

 

I understand. Look, I read your other thread about R&R, you seem to me to be a pretty cool person, and I honestly am not seeking to get into a fight of petty words with you.

 

I've said multiple times that I think the discussion is valuable. I'm all about analysis and criticism and I personally have not been discouraged by this thread. I think it's a problem though, when the OP posts these things and then comes back all :confused: about how anyone could possibly be discouraged. Maybe she completely lacked any vulnerability to feelings like this at any point in her HS career? If so, she should reveal her secrets for that in another thread. ;)[/Quote]I think she was trying to show vulnerability by showing how she thought she was so right, and then was frustratingly "proved" wrong by her own observations. She was treating this as a blog post, airing her thoughts. I don't think she meant it to be taken the way it did.

 

Eh, it's an imperfect mode of communication. I got that some folks took her words as a disparaging of home schooling everywhere. I saw it as some anecdotal evidence from the perspective of one teacher, in one region of Texas. I live in Texas, and I think education here is overall, not that good.

 

ETA: And I disagree about TD's quote but that's OK. I really do think that people's perceptions can differ and I won't get all in a tizzie about it. :)

 

Agreed to disagree!

Edited September 21, 2011 by Aelwydd

[9763653]

You are like the fourth or fifth newbie hs'er to say something to that effect. I congratulate you on your choice to hs, and even more so, on your willingness to consider all data and weigh it objectively. Just to be clear, I personally have no reservations about your ability to educate your children up through high school.

 

Thanks. I do have those reservations, but I am sure they will go away with time, and the right approach (including constant self-study). Homeschooling is one of the most serious parenting choices anyone can make, and because it meets with so much resistance and contempt from society at large, it is easy to feel the need to paint a rosy picture. That can even lead to denial of doubts.

 

Having said that, public school deserves the same scrutiny that homeschools get. I have reservations about the quality of education I can provide for the upper grades, but in the country we are living in, I don't question my ability to provide a better education than a public school would.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I honestly think the problem is Joanne approached sharing this as she would sharing her thoughts with academic peers. And then, some others here responded in like manner, sharing their observations and critiques. I have participated on enough academic and professional boards to recognize a similar tone here. But others are not responding to it that way; they are taking it, well...like a discussion board. Where criticism is being translated as a diagnosis of their own particular situation.

 

As to how people are responding, I think you came close to hitting then nail on the head. It's pretty easy to have an academic response when things are going swimmingly. There seems to be no allowance or tolerance for the feelings of those who are shaken though. Don't most of us have have periods of feeling successful and feeling unsure? We're obviously more vulnerable to self-doubt during the unsure periods. The closest I can come to explaining my perception of some posters' discouragement is to say that when you're waiting for biopsy results, you don't want to hear stories about all the people who have died of cancer.

 

I understand. Look, I read your other thread about R&R, you seem to me to be a pretty cool person, and I honestly am not seeking to get into a fight of petty words with you.

 

Aw, thanks. I'm waiting for a phone call any minute now and killing time (off school for the 2 weeks of R&R). Honestly, I kind of wish this thread would die because I'm supposed to be cleaning my bathroom. :D

 

I live in Texas, and I think education here is overall, not that good.

 

Yes. I am in TX too and no way would I send my kids to the school down the street.

[melissel]

We didn't set out to specifically LOOK for social interaction. It just happens naturally. Please don't let some of the things you read on a forum cause you to over-analyze and stress. Proceed how you and your family feel is working best for you and always be cautious about things that cause you to doubt yourself. Homeschooling is really not as hard as this thread may appear to make it. ;)

 

Thank you, I appreciate that :grouphug: This is how I envisioned homeschooling all along. But hearing some people here whose experience I respect share stories implying that that approach doesn't seem to work generally...it shakes me to the core, frankly.

 

Ok, not relating here at all. I'm the parent of a third grader. I'm hardly on the "other side," (and geez, does that sound...post-geriatric). I don't perceive a "doom" feel at all. What I perceive is some very frank discussion about what happens when some parents don't apply meaningful standards to home schooling. And how that can be compounded by other factors, which may or may not be applicable to home schoolers here.

 

I honestly think the problem is Joanne approached sharing this as she would sharing her thoughts with academic peers. And then, some others here responded in like manner, sharing their observations and critiques. I have participated on enough academic and professional boards to recognize a similar tone here. But others are not responding to it that way; they are taking it, well...like a discussion board. Where criticism is being translated as a diagnosis of their own particular situation.

 

I never said you had to be on the other side to understand. I say maybe she couldn't because she already was on the other side. For the vast majority of this thread, I've felt as Jean and Tibbie Dunbar have said--I appreciate the heads-up on certain points (though I don't think some posters understand quite how holier-than-thou their "sharing" comes across) and think that discussion is always a good thing. At a certain point, though, the conversation took what I perceived as a very negative turn, and suddenly people are making it sound as though homeschooling moms younger than a certain age or without a certain level of schooling of their own have no hope of providing their kids with the kind of education that they should.

 

My main concern about this thread is that all of the information being provided is ANECDOTAL, and some people don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. You may perceive Joanne (to use your example) as coming across as sharing her advice with academic peers. The problem is that: 1) we're not academic peers--we have a vested interest and a WIDE range of direct experience, and 2) her advice is not academic in nature. It is anecdotal. There was no carefully selected survey population, no peer review, etc. There have been plenty of similar posts and discussions in which others lament, in the same manner, the academic and social habits of large populations of traditionally schooled students. SWB herself has spoken about the poor quality of the work she sees from her college students.

 

And again, much of my concern stems from posts by members other than Joanne. Joanne's post started what turned into a firestorm, but I actually don't think her original post was all that problematic. Some things she (and others) said later bothered me much more.

[Aelwydd]

At a certain point, though, the conversation took what I perceived as a very negative turn, and suddenly people are making it sound as though homeschooling moms younger than a certain age or without a certain level of schooling of their own have no hope of providing their kids with the kind of education that they should.[/Quote]

 

Ok, I missed that. Who made such a statement?

 

My main concern about this thread is that all of the information being provided is ANECDOTAL, and some people don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. You may perceive Joanne (to use your example) as coming across as sharing her advice with academic peers. The problem is that: 1) we're not academic peers--we have a vested interest and a WIDE range of direct experience, and 2) her advice is not academic in nature. It is anecdotal. There was no carefully selected survey population, no peer review, etc. There have been plenty of similar posts and discussions in which others lament, in the same manner, the academic and social habits of large populations of traditionally schooled students. SWB herself has spoken about the poor quality of the work she sees from her college students.[/Quote]

 

Melissel, anecdotal evidence IS evidence. No, it is not considered on par with peer-reviewed studies, prospective, retrospective, etc. It is not given the same weight, nor should it be. However, when a college of professionals or academics goes to set evidence-based standards of practice for that particular group, anecdotal and case studies are considered a form of relevant evidence.

 

I have acknowledged that it is anecdotal several times on the thread, and in my last one, I emphasized again that she is one professional, in one region, of one state. Her information is still valuable however; because drawing on larger studies and population trends, one can infer whether or not her experience corroborates a larger body of evidence, or whether her experience constitutes an outlier.

 

Also, and I feel this must be said: just because this board is not an academic-minded board, should not mean that such discussions are inappropriate or unwelcome. Some of us come here exactly for such information, because we don't necessarily trust such observations coming from a mainstream educational board. That is a form of bias, I know. However, there it is, and it is no less valid a bias than anyone else's here.

 

 

And again, much of my concern stems from posts by members other than Joanne. Joanne's post started what turned into a firestorm, but I actually don't think her original post was all that problematic. Some things she (and others) said later bothered me much more.

 

Well, I honestly missed any posts talking about under-qualified parents that you referenced earlier. Unless you are talking about my posts regarding the overall decline in education amongst adults in general? If so, it should be not interpreted as saying home schooling parents aren't qualified to teach. I proffered it as a possible explanation for the phenomenon that Joanne has observed among her home schooled students, and as explanation for the poor results among public schoolers in general.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

As to how people are responding, I think you came close to hitting then nail on the head. It's pretty easy to have an academic response when things are going swimmingly. There seems to be no allowance or tolerance for the feelings of those who are shaken though. Don't most of us have have periods of feeling successful and feeling unsure? We're obviously more vulnerable to self-doubt during the unsure periods. The closest I can come to explaining my perception of some posters' discouragement is to say that when you're waiting for biopsy results, you don't want to hear stories about all the people who have died of cancer.

 

 

Wow, AVA. (Mind if I call you AVA?) This pretty well sums up my participation in this thread yesterday. We're at Critical Factor around here with the homeschooling and I should have just stayed out of it entirely. I was/am panicked and defensive, and I admit that I'm not as clear-headed as I hope to be by the end of the semester. I'm certainly not as objective as I'd like to be! During years of fair skies and clear sailing I would have probably had the same opinions but expressed them more mildly. I'm not in a condition to express anything mildly right now.

 

I can't apologize for my feelings on this thread. I've never read a more discouraging thread here at WTM, the only place in my life where I can go for support as a classical homeschooler. The analogy is a good one: Don't tell me about people dying of cancer while I'm sitting here waiting for biopsy results. Don't interrupt the marathon runner at mile marker 18 to tell him that most people don't finish marathons at all! Don't tell me about all the failures while I'm giving 110%.

 

To all the newbies: I sincerely apologize. You all are scaring the pants off of me but who cares? Who am I, anyway? You are asking, you are learning, and your story is not yet written. You are in your Teacher Training years and that can be a messy process. It was soooo long ago for me that I've lost some understanding for your stage of life, I guess. I didn't realize that had turned into one of 'those' older women. Yuck. Anyway, I will do my best to help and encourage instead of wondering why you aren't farther along.

 

And you aren't all scaring me. I see you, drexel. I see you, Dialectica. I see you, Mom reading to the two-month-old babies. :lol: And many more. Keep at it. You're doing just fine. I'd imagine it isn't pleasant to watch people down the road from where you are now being basket cases in September, but we're stronger than we seem. Don't worry.

 

The ones scaring me are those who can't be bothered to self-educate about homeschooling and pedagogical theories. Never read TWTM, never read Charlotte Mason or LCC. Taking the day/week/month/year off because homeschooling is hard. Changing curriculum every week without ever fixating on what they even want to accomplish. Not teaching grammar! Ye gods! But that's not everyone and I do apologize for my broad brush yesterday.

 

I think that's all I have to say. Don't look for me anymore on threads like this. I can't take it. I know there are massive problems in some homeschools, and I agree with Aelwydd that they only reflect the society. Still, I believe that homeschooling (and good private schools) are America's last best hope. I do. And I have to keep believing that I am contributing to the future of the nation by the hard work I do with my children every day. They will be leaders. They will be strong. They will be prepared. Why? Because dedicated homeschooling works.

[Ginevra]

I came here from another message board where everyone was always positive about homeschooling, no matter what.

 

People would post that their 9 year old can't read, hates to hold a pencil, and the only math they do is cooking. And I would sit there and think "omg, send that child to public school!" but all of the other posters would come in with "at least he's not at public school!" and with stories of some homeschooled child who didn't learn to read until he was 12 and is now at Harvard, or something like that.

 

I have to say that I found that a lot more dispiriting than this conversation. Those endless "everything is sunny even if it's not" posts were horrifying to me. It should be obvious to anyone that some things succeed, and some don't, and that homeschooling isn't any different.

 

I really like the honesty on this thread. I don't think that anyone has said "you can't homeschool for high school" or "your homeschooled student is doomed to live, unsocialized and jobless, in your basement forever." I really like that voices of experience can freely offer criticism of what they see and what they hear, so that newer homeschoolers like me can modify our plans accordingly.

 

I think it's really unfair to say that the OP doesn't belong here or that she's anti-homeschooling. I don't think those things at all.

 

Nicely said and I agree! I originally thought I would be an unschooler, until I started seeing the "My 12-year-old still doesn't read, but that's fine with me" kind of things you're talking about. Why would anyone support low standards? High standards are why I wanted to homeschool in the first place!

[melissel]

Melissel, anecdotal evidence IS evidence. No, it is not considered on par with peer-reviewed studies, prospective, retrospective, etc. It is not given the same weight, nor should it be. However, when a college of professionals or academics goes to set evidence-based standards of practice for that particular group, anecdotal and case studies are considered a form of relevant evidence.

 

I have acknowledged that it is anecdotal several times on the thread, and in my last one, I emphasized again that she is one professional, in one region, of one state. Her information is still valuable however; because drawing on larger studies and population trends, one can infer whether or not her experience corroborates a larger body of evidence, or whether her experience constitutes an outlier.

 

Also, and I feel this must be said: just because this board is not an academic-minded board, should not mean that such discussions are inappropriate or unwelcome. Some of us come here exactly for such information, because we don't necessarily trust such observations coming from a mainstream educational board. That is a form of bias, I know. However, there it is, and it is no less valid a bias than anyone else's here.

 

*sigh* Of course it is evidence. I never said it was not. And I never said this conversation wasn't worth having, on this board or any other. I believe that it is, and I appreciate knowing about potential pitfalls in the path as well. I said the way the conversation was being had, the terms that were being used, the assumptions that were being made, and the way that anecdotal evidence was being used to "warn" us was very discouraging. A dogpile effect was happening in which negative anecdotes were given a huge amount of weight and any positive anecdotes were ignored or treated as anomalies.

 

Anyway, I don't have the energy right now to go through 300 posts with a magnifying glass to present every element of my case. Maybe I will later. Suffice it to say that your posts specifically did not stick in my head, though they may have contributed to my overall sense of how this thread has gone.

[beaners]

Ok, I missed that. Who made such a statement?

 

 

I would. :001_smile:

 

Now I am going upstairs to lift weights for a while, then run 2 miles, all while pondering how to encourage and light a fire under younger homeschooling moms.

 

I know, Ria, and my frustration isn't really at you or Joanne, either. I'm sorry for my temper.

 

I do admit that I am seeing some trainwrecks on this forum and IRL. We should expect this, because the homeschool Mommy teachers are younger. They are a new generation and they had even worse educational opportunities in ps than we did.

 

I get that, and I don't know what to do about it. I do find myself typing and then deleting, "Is private school an option?" more this fall than I ever have before.

 

So, in a totally immature and me-centered fashion, I guess I would like to know how to light the fire under the chairs of the new generation while still encouraging me and telling me what a good job I'm doing?

 

Is that too much to ask? LOL

 

I recall a few others but these offer some of the "young mom" statements.

[laundrycrisis]

Nicely said and I agree! I originally thought I would be an unschooler, until I started seeing the "My 12-year-old still doesn't read, but that's fine with me" kind of things you're talking about. Why would anyone support low standards? High standards are why I wanted to homeschool in the first place!

 

 

:iagree: as well. I also came in from another board a couple of years ago. I found the extremely relaxed attitudes to be very alarming. When anyone posted anything about having some actual standards, or doing anything that felt challenging or like work, they were criticized for it, because children should never, ever ever have to be unhappy or do anything they aren't totally happy to do. :001_huh: Reading WTM (yes, I have read the book) was a very refreshing change from the other homeschooling books I had been reading, and when I found this forum I thought good, I have finally found the homeschooling people I can take seriously.

 

I come here to read about the challenges, the pitfalls, the reality checks...because really, I don't find them anywhere else. I want the whole truth, and know it can't be 100% positive all the time. I appreciate anyone who shares their challenges, concerning observations from a place of real experience, and suggestions for how to avoid problems and do a great job homeschooling all the way through, without overly optimistic glossing over what should be real concerns.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I recall a few others but these offer some of the "young mom" statements.

 

I just updated my thoughts on this, beaners:

 

To all the newbies: I sincerely apologize. You all are scaring the pants off of me but who cares? Who am I, anyway? You are asking, you are learning, and your story is not yet written. You are in your Teacher Training years and that can be a messy process. It was soooo long ago for me that I've lost some understanding for your stage of life, I guess. I didn't realize that had turned into one of 'those' older women. Yuck. Anyway, I will do my best to help and encourage instead of wondering why you aren't farther along.

 

And you aren't all scaring me. I see you, drexel. I see you, Dialectica. I see you, Mom reading to the two-month-old babies. :lol: And many more. Keep at it. You're doing just fine. I'd imagine it isn't pleasant to watch people down the road from where you are now being basket cases in September, but we're stronger than we seem. Don't worry.

 

The ones scaring me are those who can't be bothered to self-educate about homeschooling and pedagogical theories. Never read TWTM, never read Charlotte Mason or LCC. Taking the day/week/month/year off because homeschooling is hard. Changing curriculum every week without ever fixating on what they even want to accomplish. Not teaching grammar! Ye gods! But that's not everyone and I do apologize for my broad brush yesterday.

 

I do see a difference in the education level of the younger generation. I've been seeing it IRL for some time, and I am seeing it here. Studies and test scores bear this out, by the way. The nation has gotten poorer at language and math. That doesn't mean the younger parents are doomed or destined to fail, or that none of them went to good schools! It does mean that Ria and I did have someplace solid to stand in that conversation. Whether it should have been a public discussion could be a matter of debate. Probably not, because it didn't edify or encourage newbies who are doing a fine job in spite of the times.

 

The best and brightest new homeschool educators are going to keep finding their way here. I should be encouraging them instead of lamenting the challenges.

[Ria]

I wonder about this as well. I need to remind myself that most of the truly negative posts are anecdotal stories from people who are not even homeschooling. I can't see myself joining a public school support forum and sharing the horrors of public education.

 

Lisa

 

Perhaps I am included in the not-even-homeschooling crowd?

 

I homeschooled two kids all the way through high school. Yes, we used the community college, but by God, we worked our butts off to give those kids an education to be proud of. My dd got a full-tuition scholarship and is now a nurse. My son was accepted to a very competitive liberal arts school. He dropped out of school and is now a Marine.

 

After 16 years homeschooling, I put my younger kids in the public school system.

 

Should I just pretend the 16 years of homeschooling never existed? Should I crawl under a rock, ignore the friendships I've had here, just because I'm no longer a homeschooler? Should I pretend I never wrote a science curriculum (published, carried in Rainbow Resource catalog)? Should I just go away?

 

Honestly. Some of us have actually earned the right to be here and share our experiences, whether you want to hear them or not.

[Nan in Mass]

Aaarrrggg - This *IS* what I said. Or what I tried to say. Obviously I didn't manage to say it.

Obviously I should stay off the boards today, I am doing such a bad job of explaining myself.

Sigh.

I'm sorry.