Like a blog post, but I don't blog. Musings from a former homeschooler who teaches

[justamouse]

I don't agree with you-and I don't disagree with you. :001_smile:

 

Around here, co ops suck. At least the ones I know of. They're too SOF and (what word can I use-not conservative) Borg like. :D I don't go to their churches and they don't like my kind.

 

 

4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

5. To be determined.

 

This is the part I agree with, but I think this is a board argument that comes up, that old Rigor argument. But now that my Dd16 is a junior in public HS, I see the same thing. I would love it if they let me in there to *fix* that for them. :D

 

Dd is friends with all of the *hard* teachers. The ones everyone hates. Her peers cannot believe that those teachers are her favorites and that she gets such high grades. I've heard these things said in my own house.

 

BUT, I did tell her that it could be she likes them because her Dad and I are both very intense personalities. We're driven, we expect a lot of them and of or family and so in a way, these teachers are comfortable to her.

 

I'm 'against' co-ops but only because I find them to be as useless as Sunday schools for my own particular children. They are exercises in boredom, at best, and I don't like my children to equate learning with boredom. I also don't want them to learn the ways that homeschoolers fake learning, and we've seen that in co-ops, too.

 

IMVHO (and experience), co-ops are a great opportunity for people who are homeschooling because they couldn't get along with others to try to boss each other around. Queen Bees. Wannabees. Dysfunction.

 

Now, if I were ever able to find a diverse, high-caliber, rigorous or accelerated co-op taught by a person more qualified than myself (for a price I could afford, within easy driving distance), I'd probably give it a try, but the co-ops I've found around here are a waste of time.

 

exactly

 

My children participate in sports, Civil Air Patrol, and other civic and community organizations of many kinds. They get lots of opportunities to follow the leadership of adults who are nothing like their mother. I don't hover, either, or try to micro-manage CAP commanders or TKD instructors, so I'm not worried that my kids will be too dainty to hear someone tell them to knock it off.

 

again, I agree.

 

So I guess I'm having a problem with the paradigm presented in the OP. I think I can be 'against' co-ops but still be 'for' independent, non-sissy kids who are able to learn from and spend time with a wide diversity of people.

 

I have always taught my children that unless they go into business for themselves, they will ALWAYS have a boss/coworker they don't like. It's life. You have to learn to manage life with those types in it. Building a bubble for them doesn't make learning that task any easier.

 

This has certainly NOT been my experience at all.

 

I have 3 kids in their 20's who were exclusively homeschooled. No co-op, no outside classes other than swim team or art classes, none.

 

All 3 went to college or are still in college.

 

My 2 girls were 4.0 students, had tons of friends, were active in school activities etc. DS was never very academic...but he has no problem with classes at.all.

 

My girlfirend has 3 kids who were exclusively homeschooled up until the oldest went to college...her 2nd child went into high school in 11th grade...and her dd went into high school at 9th grade. None of these kids had any trouble adjusting to school.

 

My SIL homeschooled her dd through high school, and her ds up until 9th grade. Again...no co-ops, no outside classes except for dance or swim team. Again, these kids had absolutely no problem adjusting to school setting when the time came.

 

I don't know where you are getting this information, unless it is just from your own experience. My experience has been quite the opposite. I think it is ridiculous to make a blanket statement that homeschooled kids will be stunted if they are not exposed to outside classes or teachers by a certain age. I think it is nonsense....sorry.

 

By the way, I know lots of public and private schooled kids who went away to college and flunked out because they could not acclimate to their new surroundings. Does that mean that ALL PS or private schooled kids will have trouble in college??

 

I am just:confused: by these statements and would hate for a young homeschooling mom to be swayed away from schooling her kids because of someone else's bad experience.

 

Faithe

 

 

The homeschoolers that I know with graduated kids did virtual college and got thier BA in 2 years, then one went to work on Wall Street making over 60k, felt led to go into Law, took his LSAT and got free rides to top law schools.

 

BUT, they were *rigorous* with a love of learning.

Edited September 19, 2011 by justamouse

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I completely agree with you.

 

I am sending my 10th grader to the community college next year because he really needs to get away from his mother. He needs to learn how to fend for himself and organize himself and deal with failure if that's what it comes to.

 

Also, it's hard work homeschooling a high schooler. Truly. I think that the idea that high schoolers will teach themselves and the parent-teacher doesn't need to be involved very much is a myth propagated by wishful thinking. Sure, some high schoolers do ok with this approach. But there's more to an education than just learning from a book and writing papers. Education is also a social act. An act that I can't completely conjure in my basement no matter what wonderful materials I select. Discussions with mom all the time don't cut it. It is important to learn from people who are passionate about their subjects.

 

The other myth propagated by homeschoolers is that the parent doesn't need to know anything. Just learn along with your children! No problem! Sure, that works in first grade, but as you move up, things get more difficult and it becomes more necessary to be not just one step ahead but *years* ahead. Yes--it is important to *really understand* algebra when teaching fractions. You need to know where you're going.

 

Just as it is not trivial to teach a class of schoolchildren, it is not trivial to be a homeschooling parent. You can't just wing it.

 

My own children don't fit what I am presenting. However, I can tell you that I would not have been able to adequately teach math or science past 7th grade. My children have been at or above grade level in their private school and in their public schools. Socially, they have thrived.

 

I didn't post against homeschooling; but against a blind spot in the homeschooling population.

 

Surely, EKS and Joanne, you know from reading these forums that some of us are neither winging it nor incapable of adequately teaching past seventh grade.

 

Homeschooling instead of going to school does not by definition mean that a youth has no access to persons who are passionate about various academic disciplines, either.

 

I'm beginning to think that the theories put forth in this thread were cobbled together on two very shaky principles:

 

1. The assumption that nobody can surpass another in natural or learned ability.

 

2. The casual observation of homeschooling families who failed to run the race to the end.

 

The former is obviously wrong. Some can't teach past seventh grade, but some can! Some can't envision anything other than long days in the basement with Mom, but some can connect their children to passionate and helpful experts and mentors as a mere extension of an academically rich family life. And what does the latter have to do with me, or with anyone else who is successfully educating children at home?

[EKS]

Surely, EKS and Joanne, you know from reading these forums that some of us are neither winging it nor incapable of adequately teaching past seventh grade.

 

 

Of course I think that there are people who can teach past seventh grade! I'm doing it! I've been enormously successful. But I don't think that homeschooling is the perfect solution in the upper grades. The reality is that it's way more difficult to do a good job than the homeschooling myths would have us believe.

 

I think these boards have a high proportion of folks who in fact *are* doing a wonderful job of homeschooling their older kids. But not everyone is, even here.

 

I think the homeschooling community would do itself a big favor if it would stop propagating the myth that homeschooling the upper grades is as easy as handing the kid a book and hoping for the best.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Surely, EKS and Joanne, you know from reading these forums that some of us are neither winging it nor incapable of adequately teaching past seventh grade.

 

Homeschooling instead of going to school does not by definition mean that a youth has no access to persons who are passionate about various academic disciplines, either.

 

I'm beginning to think that the theories put forth in this thread were cobbled together on two very shaky principles:

 

1. The assumption that nobody can surpass another in natural or learned ability.

 

2. The casual observation of homeschooling families who failed to run the race to the end.

 

The former is obviously wrong. Some can't teach past seventh grade, but some can! Some can't envision anything other than long days in the basement with Mom, but some can connect their children to passionate and helpful experts and mentors as a mere extension of an academically rich family life. And what does the latter have to do with me, or with anyone else who is successfully educating children at home?

 

I was a bit taken back at first because I feel like I am stepping up to the plate with high school with no co-op in sight. But then I took another look a the OP. I now view it more like a mini sermon which you apply, only if it actually does apply to you! That's why she made sure that she labeled it as a blog post - an opinion piece, if you will, for the internet audience.

[Joanne]

Surely, EKS and Joanne, you know from reading these forums that some of us are neither winging it nor incapable of adequately teaching past seventh grade.

 

 

 

Some. On THIS forum, I'll grant many.

 

I will admit some personal bias. I am pretty smart, and quite capable in many areas. I am fully able to teach BEYOND high school in some subjects.

 

I have come to believe, however, that it would be a rare, rare family who can homeschool (without outside classes) math and science adequately for high school.

 

I think the percentage is higher for some Language Arts, also, but not as high as math and science.

 

I no longer believe that most homeschooling families can be proficient enough at all subjects to provide adequate rigor in all disciplines from their own resources for upper grades.

[texasmama]

I have come to believe, however, that it would be a rare, rare family who can homeschool (without outside classes) math and science adequately for high school.

 

I think the percentage is higher for some Language Arts, also, but not as high as math and science.

 

I no longer believe that most homeschooling families can be proficient enough at all subjects to provide adequate rigor in all disciplines from their own resources for upper grades.

 

I agree with these statements for my own family/experience.

 

Fortunately, we have access to the type of co op which is evidently very rare (as I am learning by reading other people's experiences). It is rigorous, inexpensive, 12 or so kids per class this year (for Latin and science), close by and well run. There is no statement of faith to sign and very little drama. If there is drama, they bring me in to help set boundaries. I will pay $250 for an entire year of Latin (Prima Latina) and science (Apologia) for two boys, plus books. My kids get a classroom experience for two hours a week, learn to function with other kids, get experience following an non parental adult's expectations, and the subjects which I tend to neglect get taught by someone who is passionate about them.

 

At some point in the future, probably mid-teen years, I anticipate that my homeschooled kids will begin taking some classes at one of the local community colleges.

 

I can teach beginning algebra, I believe, and then my math skills will peter out. I can teach/facilitate learning in the non-mathy sciences. (biology versus chemistry) I feel fairly confident in language arts through the end of high school, but I may outsource that at some point, as well, because I see the value in having another perspective on writing assignments and being in a classroom setting to discuss literature.

 

I feel extremely fortunate to be located in a homeschooling friendly state and in an area rich in resources for homeschoolers and college students. Not all homeschoolers have this opportunity.

Edited September 19, 2011 by texasmama

[Jean in Newcastle]

Some. On THIS forum, I'll grant many.

 

I will admit some personal bias. I am pretty smart, and quite capable in many areas. I am fully able to teach BEYOND high school in some subjects.

 

I have come to believe, however, that it would be a rare, rare family who can homeschool (without outside classes) math and science adequately for high school.

 

I think the percentage is higher for some Language Arts, also, but not as high as math and science.

 

I no longer believe that most homeschooling families can be proficient enough at all subjects to provide adequate rigor in all disciplines from their own resources for upper grades.

 

But there are so many different ways to get outside help without having to do a co-op! If dh weren't working 2 jobs, he would have taken over teaching math and science and would have done an excellent job. Instead, we've hired an outside tutor to come to our home. Jann in Tx offers online tutoring. Others get help from older siblings or do online classes or community college classes or go to the local high school for just those subjects. . . Some kids do figure out math and science on their own and do an excellent job. And of course, some moms are math or science majors or otherwise did well at math and are able to teach it just fine.

[Serenade]

I think I can be 'against' co-ops but still be 'for' independent, non-sissy kids who are able to learn from and spend time with a wide diversity of people.

 

This exactly.

 

FWIW, I'm not against co-ops for others, but they are not my cuppa.

[Joanne]

But there are so many different ways to get outside help without having to do a co-op! If dh weren't working 2 jobs, he would have taken over teaching math and science and would have done an excellent job. Instead, we've hired an outside tutor to come to our home. Jann in Tx offers online tutoring. Others get help from older siblings or do online classes or community college classes or go to the local high school for just those subjects. . . Some kids do figure out math and science on their own and do an excellent job. And of course, some moms are math or science majors or otherwise did well at math and are able to teach it just fine.

 

Totally on the bold. I'm not necessarily pro-co-op. ;) I'm anti-anti-co-op.

 

I believe that the best homeschooling includes finding the right outside help, which may or may not be co-op.

 

Not so convinced on the italics.

[wapiti]

I have come to believe, however, that it would be a rare, rare family who can homeschool (without outside classes) math and science adequately for high school.

 

Though I have no plan to homeschool for high school myself, it is quite fortunate that outside classes of the non-co-op variety are more available than ever before, thanks to on-line classes, among other options.

[HS Mom in NC]

I was a staunch, idealogical homeschooler.

 

1. I am stunned and saddened at the level of anti co-op and the superior/arrogance that accompanies some of it. By definition, co-ops in this context are homeschool friendly and/or have a high level of parental involvement and educational determination. To me, it's like being against K-12 Charters done at home. :confused:

 

 

2. If you DO use outside classes, and some level of co-op, you have to accept the reality that your children, as a student in a group, will be interacted with by adults with varying levels of training and ability. They will be interacted with with words and styles that are not your preferences.

 

3. Regarding #1 and #2, I don't think we do children any favors by protecting them from outside settings or jumping into situations that do not warrant intervention.

 

4. Many homeschooling parents (IMO, and I was one I am about to talk about) tend to have a higher than mainstream level of assumed "right" to manage other settings. Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

 

My personal truth is that my older homeschooled students (my bio kids and bonus students) benefited from others teaching them subjects I had less skill in. They benefited from "dealing" with a range of styles. They benefited that I didn't jump in every time something was done that wasn't the way *I* would do it. I did jump in, once, over my son's haircut. ;)

 

My other personal truth is that kids can thrive in school settings. Teachers can be *terrific*. I know. I am one; my kids have others. Even the one in public high school.

 

Cherish your homeschooling if you are able to homeschool. :)

 

I think a few examples of each point made and a few suggestions in how parents of homeschoolers can better prepare their children for high level group learning situations would be helpful for us to better understand exactly where you're coming from and where you're going with this. Over my 11+ years HSing I've heard legitimate complaints about some HSer behavior and I've heard some unfair complaints.

[Aggie]

1. I am stunned and saddened at the level of anti co-op and the superior/arrogance that accompanies some of it. By definition, co-ops in this context are homeschool friendly and/or have a high level of parental involvement and educational determination. To me, it's like being against K-12 Charters done at home. :confused:

 

 

2. If you DO use outside classes, and some level of co-op, you have to accept the reality that your children, as a student in a group, will be interacted with by adults with varying levels of training and ability. They will be interacted with with words and styles that are not your preferences.

 

3. Regarding #1 and #2, I don't think we do children any favors by protecting them from outside settings or jumping into situations that do not warrent intervention.

 

4. Many homeschooling parents (IMO, and I was one I am about to talk about) tend to have a higher than mainstream level of assumed "right" to manage other settings. Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

My personal truth is that my older homeschooled students (my bio kids and bonus students) benefited from others teaching them subjects I had less skill in. They benefited from "dealing" with a range of styles. They benefited that I didn't jump in every time something was done that wasn't the way *I* would do it. I did jump in, once, over my son's haircut. ;)

 

My other personal truth is that kids can thrive in school settings. Teachers can be *terrific*. I know. I am one; my kids have others. Even the one in public high school.

 

Cherish your homeschooling if you are able to homeschool. :)

 

How many homeschooled kids are you basing this assumption on, Joanne? Is there a link to a study or is this from your limited personal experience?

[Laurie4b]

My experience:

 

Started out homeschooling from K; sure that we would homeschool in middle school because of what my experience in mental health seems to hold potential for negative peer interaction that was not strengthening but damaging even years later. Open to public school in elementary, but generally wanted to homeschool through middle school as Plan A. Decided early on to let our students choose school option for 9th grade. My oldest two visited the public school for a tour, talk with guidance counselor, etc. and both chose homeschool. Oldest went to a public school alternative school that allowed a full load of cc classes free. He went senior year for the credits. Next oldest son went jr. year and I would have insisted he go. (Homeschool stopped working for him.)

 

Co-op experience has been great for the most part. Blessed to be in an area with fabulous once a week classes. Only one dud teacher so far. Just told ds's attending to live with it and try to adjust. (Teacher really had no concept of developmental abilities.)

 

Oldest ds attended a lower key co-op in late elem/middle school, but I wasn't deliberate about outside classes prior to that. he got slammed initially in outside science class in 9th grade because he wasn't used to textbooks. Took a while to help him adjust, but he ended up with an A for the year. Made the decision that all younger bros would take a textbook type course in middle school so 9th grade "when it counts" wouldn't be as big a jump.

 

I know only one homeschool family in this area who really weren't keeping the kid on grade level. (and I administered required yearly testing using the Woodcock Johnson for about 50 area homeschooled students for about 3 or 4 years, so have a lot of objective data from that as well as subjective impressions from kids from probably 100 homeschool families I know personally or through my kids--enough to know how the kids are doing and who goes to which colleges. Only know a few who choose vocations directly out of homeschooling.) That family enrolled their child in public school for 9th grade after 9th grade at home. He was doing okay from what i heard--played on a sports team, so it couldn't have been a total disaster or he wouldn't have qualified. Had dyslexia, which mom preferred to deal with by allowing him to "bloom"' on his own timetable rather than remediate and stress him--hence his being behind.

 

I know one family really into the the super-shelter, daughters learn to be wives, sons may choose to go to college, but maybe not the best plan. They were very diligent and their kids are all following their plan. Not my academic choice, don't agree with the philosophical issue, etc. But TWO is the total number of families in this area in which I wondered about the quality of the homeschooling. Most are very diligent (and anxious about whether they are doing the right thing, etc.) if they continue homeschooling in middle or high school. Many kids in this area get into highly selective colleges straight out of homeschool--some with full rides. Many homeschoolers are starting to use the alternative school with the cc credits when their kids hit their junior year (earliest students can enroll.) I tested only one 'unschooler" family. The kids' scores were off the chart excellent.

 

All the co-ops/outside classes encourage parental control of academics, though the teachers set high standards. Parents I know use that appropriately--sometimes intervening with a poor teacher, sometimes adjusting thing for their kid with special need.

 

So not all areas are alike.

[YLVD]

Of course I think that there are people who can teach past seventh grade! I'm doing it! I've been enormously successful. But I don't think that homeschooling is the perfect solution in the upper grades. The reality is that it's way more difficult to do a good job than the homeschooling myths would have us believe.

 

I think these boards have a high proportion of folks who in fact *are* doing a wonderful job of homeschooling their older kids. But not everyone is, even here.

 

I think the homeschooling community would do itself a big favor if it would stop propagating the myth that homeschooling the upper grades is as easy as handing the kid a book and hoping for the best.

 

:iagree:

[9763653]

I hear your point on finger wagging.

 

But I homeschooled for over 10 years, sought many avenues of like minded support, reading material, and information. You are not talking to someone who is ignorant about the range of opinions and viewpoints in homeschooling.

 

I *don't* want the other view. You are welcome to post it, of course, but that is not why I posted this particular thread. I do personally believe that insular homeschooling in the long term, and being against "co-ops" categorically represents a mentality that does not serve children in the long run.

 

I have a high school senior who recently pulled out of my Rhetoric and Comp class because we went over, in class, everyone's essay on their plan for doing well in school. We went over everyone's. It was an assignment so that I could judge everyone's current ability to organize an academic essay and write. I gave him feedback. He didn't like it and mom let him bail. THAT is what my post was about.

 

Really? How do you feel about homeschooling in places where there are no co-ops?

[IsabelC]

Speaking only from my experience and that of a few irl friends, the preselection factor makes sense to me. My child isn't "bad at doing school" because he's an isolated home educated kid, he's homeschooled (in part) because he wouldn't be any good at doing school.

 

Co-ops. Well, my understanding is that they are, by and large, an attempt to get some of the benefits that might come from a good school, without getting the disadvantages of 'normal' school. Perhaps where parents differ, is in what disadvantages, in what degree, can be accepted. (Is some colorful language from a co-op teacher a deal breaker? Maybe, maybe not.) Is that just part and parcel of the more general ambivalence we feel about any aspect of letting go of direct control over our children? Aren't we always working to find the balance between wanting to push them out towards independence in the wide world, and simaltaneously wanting to hold them close and protect them from everything?

[Wildiris]

I'm sure this will get lost in the long list of posts, but it seems as though the co-op, homeschooling, sheltered kids etc., discussion is more about parenting than education. Kids who do well in the homeschool environment, the kind you find on TV or in magazines as the poster child for homeschooling, would do well in any setting- homeschool, private school or boarding school. There are homeschool failures just like there are public school failures.

 

My impression about the current level of homeschooling is there is a whole lot of shuck and jive going on, i.e. Not much schooling. There is no getting around the fact that teaching a classroom or one is work that many seem to always be looking for an easy way to get out of doing.

[lewelma]

Thank you for this thread. It has been excellent.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Aelwydd]

Joanne, I happen to believe that your anecdotal experience probably is highly influenced by a broader phenomenon in Texas home schooling.

 

Emphasis on Texas.

 

What I mean is, there is really no accountability at all for home schoolers here. Is it so surprising then, that you have repeatedly encountered poorly prepared and educated home school students?

 

I suspect that you would have a much different experience if you were teaching in a region where education is generally superior, all around. That is to say, it isn't just the mode of education that counts--it's the surrounding culture, as well. It is my own opinion, that the poor educational mean of a given population, replicates itself into similar lackluster results in the younger generation.

 

Public schooling, with its greater resources, and more objective standards, is able to somewhat buffer, and sometimes even defy this trend. The home schooling model, however, is much more vulnerable to larger trends of severely anemic critical thinking skills. (And that is what we have here.) If a child gets a "bad teacher" in home schooling, he or she doesn't get the opportunity to graduate to a new teacher the next year.

[....]

Joanne, I happen to believe that your anecdotal experience probably is highly influenced by a broader phenomenon in Texas home schooling.

 

Emphasis on Texas.

 

What I mean is, there is really no accountability at all for home schoolers here. Is it so surprising then, that you have repeatedly encountered poorly prepared and educated home school students?

 

We currently homeschool in Texas. We've also homeschooled in Missouri and my sisters homeschooled in Illinois. Honestly, the homeschooling opportunities have been better in Texas. There is enrichment stuff everywhere. My kids have taken several enrichment classes here (that weren't available where we lived before). My oldest two were in a science jeopardy competition, they took a hands-on science class (that was just awesome), they've been on field trips with our homeschool group and they took a history class here that was a blast. We have an enrichment center here that teaches theater, science, math, art, etc. (And most of these classes are for middle school to high school.) There's also a children's orchestra here...and there's a church in FW that has a huge art and music program for homeschoolers.

 

I just don't see why anyone would think homeschooling would be worse in Texas. :confused:

 

As far as "accountability", I think many of those state regs are just for show. We had tougher state laws on homeschooling in MO (and we followed those laws), but...at the end of the day...our homeschool looked exactly the same as it does here in TX.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Thank you. We have used/ are using probably every conceivable form of schooling. There are things of value to be learned in each along with things worth leaving behind. Learning the difference is a valuable life skill. Prayers for you and dh and another thank you.

[G5052]

Just as it is not trivial to teach a class of schoolchildren, it is not trivial to be a homeschooling parent. You can't just wing it.

 

Parental focus and expectation is the key, period. Homeschooling places a child in a vulnerable position educationally because so much depends on the parent. In the classroom, the child probably will not have the same teacher every year, so there is the hope that they will have some good teachers along the way along with the bad ones and that the good ones will balance out the bad ones.

 

I've also come to the point that I'm outsourcing more, but even there, I've learned to outsource to an expert. Paid classes range from a mom reading out loud from the book to retired teachers whose mastery of the material and ability to teach is far above what I'll ever achieve. I'm not going to pay for a mom reading out loud. Period. I'm thankful that I can afford good classes.

Edited September 19, 2011 by GVA

[Halftime Hope]

Of course I think that there are people who can teach past seventh grade! I'm doing it! I've been enormously successful. But I don't think that homeschooling is the perfect solution in the upper grades. The reality is that it's way more difficult to do a good job than the homeschooling myths would have us believe.

 

I think the homeschooling community would do itself a big favor if it would stop propagating the myth that homeschooling the upper grades is as easy as handing the kid a book and hoping for the best.

 

See, from many years hanging out on the High School boards, I think it is the exception to have someone homeschool high school entirely by themselves, judging from the plaintive posts, is anyone doing this all by themselves with no outside classes at all? At least it is the exception here.

 

I think a truer statement of our experience homeschooling is that for high school I am as much an educational advocate as a teacher, finding great teachers (and the occasional dud) for my students where needed. I actively teach some things, cheerlead and walk alongside my students on a *very* few things (things is it OK for them to self-teach), and seek a variety of opportunities for them to learn from people who are experts and who have passion about their fields.

 

At least that was the pattern for my first two who each had a clear "bent" toward fields that I couldn't do justice in, engineering and art. My third child is more of a generalist. I am teaching more with him, yet this year I organized a small co-op for the accountability, the discussion, and the competition. ; )

 

ETA: just to stir the pot, I am *not* teaching Spanish or Chemistry, the two classes which I am overqualified to teach. I am teaching American Lit, a class that I'm not qualified at all to teach, past having a degree (if that counts at all--I don't think it matters), being an avid reader and researcher, being a good judge of curriculum, and being really good at teaching composition, which you'd never know by the way I write here. I am willing to invest time studying and time working on this class. And so far, except for having two students that have not turned in a couple of items, the class is going swimmingly. Even my "disengaged" student is engaging, starting to look up at me. And I'm unqualified. The other posters who said they'd only pay for someone who was more qualified than them? They might be missing out.

 

YMMV

Edited September 19, 2011 by Valerie(TX)

[justamouse]

I'm sure this will get lost in the long list of posts, but it seems as though the co-op, homeschooling, sheltered kids etc., discussion is more about parenting than education. Kids who do well in the homeschool environment, the kind you find on TV or in magazines as the poster child for homeschooling, would do well in any setting- homeschool, private school or boarding school. There are homeschool failures just like there are public school failures.

 

My impression about the current level of homeschooling is there is a whole lot of shuck and jive going on, i.e. Not much schooling. There is no getting around the fact that teaching a classroom or one is work that many seem to always be looking for an easy way to get out of doing.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Halftime Hope]

I no longer believe that most homeschooling families can be proficient enough at all subjects to provide adequate rigor in all disciplines from their own resources for upper grades.

 

I understand your point and agree with you, Joanne. But are the alternatives necessarily any better? My niece was in a semi-rural school district with a *very* good rep. (500 students in her graduating class, to give an idea of the size.) She was heading into a STEM field, yet had a Pre-Calc class her junior year in which she and several other students taught the teacher. She re-took it again her senior year as a dual credit, knowing that she'd need it to do well in college, yet her dual credit class was a disaster as well--the prof couldn't teach. My niece was the valedictorian of her class, so if she didn't get the ed she needed in math, it was not for lack of smarts or for lack of trying.

 

I live in an area of the metroplex that is zoned as a great school district, yet you look at the pants-on-the-ground boys and the tarted-up girls that walk up and down the streets to and from the zoned high school, and listen to them hanging out at the CFA where ds works, and ds has begged me to continue to homeschool him. And ds is no "homeschooled weanie," he's a fun, outgoing, well-liked kid with scads of non-homeschooled friends.

 

What's the alternative? 7K a year is the cheapest tuition at a private school (university model) around here. The atmosphere at the one charter high school is rotten enough that I wouldn't drive the 40 minutes to get there.

 

I think we're probably doing the best that there is, and I'll be paying for it out of my retirement.

[Impish]

But there are so many different ways to get outside help without having to do a co-op! If dh weren't working 2 jobs, he would have taken over teaching math and science and would have done an excellent job. Instead, we've hired an outside tutor to come to our home. Jann in Tx offers online tutoring. Others get help from older siblings or do online classes or community college classes or go to the local high school for just those subjects. . . Some kids do figure out math and science on their own and do an excellent job. And of course, some moms are math or science majors or otherwise did well at math and are able to teach it just fine.

:iagree:Fwiw, I have no problem teaching upper grade biology and math. I'll even do beginning physics and chem. For Sr, I'll hire out. 'Hire out' being a Uni student as a tutor, more than likely, I have a few yrs before we get there.

 

I don't see ever utilizing a coop. For one, transportation and timing are issues. I don't drive, and can't afford to cab it every wk. (RSD makes bus a living nightmare) Classes and coops are during the day, so Wolf's at work. Add to that the few classes I've tried for Diva were a complete waste of time and money, and I'm not interested in gambling again.

 

So, unless enrolling in an eve class (con ed, college), or hiring a tutor happens, I'm the teacher. Coops just aren't doable.

[laundrycrisis]

Our oldest is only in 3rd...I am reading this thread with great interest. But I am wondering where correspondence schools like Keystone or the American School would fit in, and also about community college classes as opposed to co-op classes.

 

Is it so bad to want to run the academics from home without co-ops ? I get the impression that co-op academic classes are often even less demanding that public school classes. If that's the case, I think they would feel like a waste of time. I didn't apply myself in high school because I knew it was a waste of time. I was all over college.

 

My own public high school experience seems like a joke to think about now. I went to one of the "best" high schools in the state. But I had to wait for college to get to any real discussions, real exams and quizzes with essay questions, real labs, real lab reports, real research papers. High school was such a waste of time. I cannot imagine how going to PS and having that type of experience would be better than doing correspondence work from home with private tutors when they are needed to get through it, and starting community college as early as possible.

 

I am not interested in co-ops for academic purposes (only for enrichment). I'm happy to sign them up for every type of enrichment course they want, and have a lot of experience taking direction from various teachers, tutors and coaches, but I want to run the academics from home...not to shelter them from it being too hard but to make sure it's good enough to count for something. I have no plans to wing it. I am hoping to use accredited courses. I would not trust either co-op classes or public school to prepare them for college. I don't know if correspondence courses would be any better but at least I could see what is required and add on as necessary.

[Dmmetler]

I do a co-op, but it's a fun, weekly social one where parents present something they know a lot about to a group of kids-and where, if a topic isn't quite working, we can simply send the kids outside to play and figure it's just a social week. No one is counting it as part of their curriculum plan (at least, I HOPE not)-but it's a fun way to give the kids some experience having to wait to be called on and answering questions, standing in line to get their snack, and a group to have Valentine's exchanges and field trips with.

 

 

What worries me is that some co-ops seem to consider homeschooling parents as interchangeable parts, and assume that if you can teach a curriculum at home, you can teach it in a group. I've seen, for example, on this board discussions about "What Greek curriculum should I use for a Co-op when I don't know Greek". And the Classical Conversations director I spoke to locally seemed to consider it an asset that the tutors were simply "parents like you" who had done a weekend training workshop and were now teaching EVERYTHING to a group of wiggly kids, including tin whistle (which, with college degrees in woodwind performance and music education and teaching experience spanning 20 years, I'd STILL not want to teach to a group of 5-8 yr olds!). Another one looked only at years of homeschooling, not at outside experiences, when assigning parent responsibilities-ignoring that a 1st year homeschooler might actually be an extremely experienced group teacher with expert level knowledge in a given field, and a 10th year homeschooler might not have ever taught anyone beyond her own children before.

 

That, to me, is setting up the person to fail. Because while you might be able to learn beside your kids at home, you're only learning one skill set. You are already an expert at your kids, even though you may not feel like it sometimes. You probably already know what works most of the time. You know how to teach other subjects, so it's a matter of adapting what you know to a new skill-set.

 

But in a group, unless you've spent a lot of time teaching other people's children in a group setting, that's a much different skill set. You're never going to know those kids as well as you know your own, no matter how big your family is. The other parent's beliefs, values, and educational priorities are never going to match yours completely. And that's not easy to learn. If you know your subject, very, very well, you can focus on tweaking the presentation and making it work for the kids. Try adding a subject that you don't know terribly well yourself, or, in some cases, even completely understand yourself, and you're likely to be very frustrated indeed.

 

Most teacher horror stories come from new teachers or teachers who have been placed in classrooms well outside their experience area. Co-ops that assume that because a parent is a homeschooler, they can teach a class are setting themselves up for the same horror stories.

[seraphina]

When we were first looking for a co-op I did not want one that was solely academic. We are in a transition year so I didn't think it would be in the best interest for my son. Mainly I wanted a co-op where he could learn something interesting and socialize. I think your experience and contentment level with a co-op will be based on what you expect to get out of it.

[mommymilkies]

I'm sure this will get lost in the long list of posts, but it seems as though the co-op, homeschooling, sheltered kids etc., discussion is more about parenting than education. Kids who do well in the homeschool environment, the kind you find on TV or in magazines as the poster child for homeschooling, would do well in any setting- homeschool, private school or boarding school. There are homeschool failures just like there are public school failures.

 

:iagree: It really is the parents. Not the form of schooling even, IMO. My dh teaches college. Unless you have college teaching experience, you may not realize the high number of parents who still try to coddle and overprotect their kids. Dh has had SO many parents come in begging for their kids to have higher grades-even when the kids don't bother showing up for class. And the parents almost always win getting the school to erase plagiarism and other offenses on their record. Dh is on the Academic Standards Committee which is just a fancy and official way of erasing Fs on students' records because they are "oh so sorry". FWIW, none of these kids he's dealt with like this were homeschoolers, but that doesn't mean no homeschool parents do this.

 

As far as high school goes, I think we're more than prepared. Dh and I were both science geeks and lab workers. Dh teaches chemistry in college and if I need to, his colleagues are more than helpful to get us tutoring or help. I would probably ask the Foreign Exchange students to tutor my kids, though. They have a much higher work ethic and a much better understanding of the material. But I think I'm more than prepared to teach even college level math & science.

 

High school failed me. I was gifted but bullied and treated badly. I barely graduated. I didn't even know how to do division right when I graduated scraping honors as a kid who barely showed up. Then I got in college and rocked through Trig, etc. It really depends on the kid & teacher. You gotta find that hook to the subject and the relationship. I was interested in Quantum Physics, so math became interesting. Add in a decent math teacher (who was a teacher aide) and I excelled.

[....]

Is it so bad to want to run the academics from home without co-ops ?

 

Some areas don't even have co-ops. My sisters (who I spoke about earlier in the thread) never set foot in a co-op. I don't think they even had co-ops back then (especially where we lived).

 

People just need to do what's best for their kids. There isn't going to be one formula of homeschooling that works for every family. We take enrichments classes (usually, not this semester), but they're more for the kids to make some friends...do something different...sit in a classroom... That doesn't mean that I think every person who homeschools should take enrichment classes. I think everyone should be free to do what works for them.

[....]

:iagree: It really is the parents. Not the form of schooling even, IMO. My dh teaches college. Unless you have college teaching experience, you may not realize the high number of parents who still try to coddle and overprotect their kids. Dh has had SO many parents come in begging for their kids to have higher grades-even when the kids don't bother showing up for class. And the parents almost always win getting the school to erase plagiarism and other offenses on their record.

 

This isn't homeschooling. This is just our society going off the deep end. :D

[Nan in Mass]

Oh, gosh, I remember arguing with you!

 

Honestly, Ria, I am aghast at what I see. Having worked in public schools, I was already getting the polish worn off my homeschool high horse. The progression has been like this:

 

1. Staunch homeschooler, unwilling and unable to see that homeschoolers might have failed on any measurable scale.

 

2. Ok, some homeschoolers might have missed the mark. But many of those simply choose another teaching style, or educational paradigm.

 

3. Ok, some homeschoolers do not teach upper levels well.

 

4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

5. To be determined.

 

I have older children. I have watched three transition now from homeschooling to classroom learning. I have struggled to teach two to answer textbook questions with only moderate success. I have seen the good and the bad of public school. I have struggled to teach high school math and science and foreign languages.

 

Perhaps your #5 will go something like this:

 

5. There are educational advantages and disadvantages to both homeschooling and schooling. One of the advantages of homeschooling is that there is more to an education than just academics and these non-academic ways to approach education that aren't very compatible with educating large quantities of children all at the same time. One of the disadvantages is that it is easy to over-shelter and over-managed one's children. Another disadvantage is that it is hard to teach advanced subjects well. One of the advantages of schooling is that if you are ever going to go to school (for example college), lots of experience with learning from a textbook and proving that you have learned something is helpful. An enthusiastic, knowledgable teacher and an interested class can inspire and instruct in a way that working on one's own does not. On the other hand, the quest to satisfy one's curiosity and the satisfaction that comes of figuring things out for oneself and being able to concentrate on whatever one wishes are also nice. And finally and most importantly: There is more to growing up than academic education and those other things are probably more important than one's academic education. Many families choose homeschooling or schooling based on those other things.

 

That is where I think you might wind up in a few more years. : )

Nan

[WIS0320]

Dh has had SO many parents come in begging for their kids to have higher grades-even when the kids don't bother showing up for class. And the parents almost always win getting the school to erase plagiarism and other offenses on their record. Dh is on the Academic Standards Committee which is just a fancy and official way of erasing Fs on students' records because they are "oh so sorry". FWIW, none of these kids he's dealt with like this were homeschoolers, but that doesn't mean no homeschool parents do this.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

My mother taught at a university on the east coast for 5 years and left because she couldn't take the whining from her students for study guides that would be answer keys to tests, easing up on the grading of papers, and dealing with parents who would swoop in and "rescue" their adult child even in serious situations of plagiarism and cheating. Even worse is that these students were studying to become teachers.

 

ETA: This obviously isn't directly related to homeschooling but I think it is indicative of how parents in our culture believe that good parenting means assuring that their child feels happy and "successful" all the time even if they are failing. This can show up in all kinds of ways from not allowing a teacher the authority she deserves in her classroom (except in extreme situations) or a parent "helping" their child with a project to the extent that the parent is really the one doing the work, to everyone on a team getting a trophy. Hey, I'm guilty of this myself - I never want my kids to feel left out, upset or like failures. It's hard knowing when you are being a proactive parent and when you've crossed the line.

Edited September 19, 2011 by drexel

[texasmama]

Some misconceptions seem to exist about the "good" co ops. They don't replace parental/home instruction, even for the courses taken. For me, they provide accountability with subjects I am less likely to prioritize (Latin and hands-on science). My boys are still working at home on both subjects, completing the syllabus requirements. If they don't do the homework and come to class prepared, they are excused from class to complete it.

 

Some secondary (but valuable) benefits that they receive from co op are: being in a classroom with 12 kids, interacting and discussing the material with an adult other than me, learning to be organized with materials, understanding how to read and follow a syllabus, having outside accountability for work done and feedback on that work, getting the opportunity to present material in front of the class, making some friends and learning how to navigate the relationships with kids whom they do not like. I have one child who is shy, and the experience of interacting in class, being graded by another adult and presenting material in front of the class is very important for him and cannot be replicated at home. However, all children have different needs, and all parents have differing abilities to meet those needs. If I only had my two youngest kids to school, our needs as a family would be different.

 

A poorly run co op, educational- or enrichment-based, would be, at best, a waste of time. Ours meets a need for us, and I believe it will continue to do so. Time will tell.

Edited September 19, 2011 by texasmama

[texasmama]

My mother taught at a university on the east coast for 5 years and left because she couldn't take the whining from her students for study guides that would be answer keys to tests, easing up on the grading of papers, and dealing with parents who would swoop in and "rescue" their adult child even in serious situations of plagiarism and cheating. Even worse is that these students were studying to become teachers.

 

As a current adjunct professor at a large university, I will concur with students wanting "answer keys" to tests and some students whining about not receiving bite sized chunks of information to memorize. They were less interested in learning and more interested in an easy college degree. More frightening is the fact that I teach mostly masters level courses. This is the mentality that the typical public school produces, IME.

 

I've not ever experienced having a student's parent come in to speak to me regarding the student, though.

[snowbeltmom]

Is it so bad to want to run the academics from home without co-ops ?..

 

My own public high school experience seems like a joke to think about now. I went to one of the "best" high schools in the state.

We live in one of the "best" school systems in our state, and our high school makes Newsweek's annual list of top public high schools, yet we are homeschooling because I am convinced that my children are able to get a much more rigorous education at home. This statement is not arrogance on my part; my conclusions are based upon the following:

1. A friend of mine is concerned that her son did not learn anything in 10th grade Honors English last year at our public school. The class only had to write three short papers over the entire year. None of the papers was returned, so her son never had an opportunity to improve his writing skills. When I questioned why this mom didn't complain, her response was that all the kids got "A's", and she can't rock the boat because the teacher might take it out on her younger son when he takes the class in a couple of years.

2. Another friend was worried because she had just found out that her daughter's Honors Biology class had not conducted a single lab yet - this was the end of April.

3. The AP calc class had one student "pass" the class with a score of 3. With an exception of a score of "2", all other scores were a "1".

4. Since the age of 13, my son has had the highest AMC 12 score in the entire school, despite not having no where near the higher level math classes as the other students.

5. The school is not offering AP chemistry this year, and last year the students had to choose between AP Physics B and AP Chemistry because both were offered the same time. My oldest is a math and science kid who would be at a huge disadvantage if he arrived at college without AP Chemistry under his belt (as his public schooled friends have discovered.)

 

I could go on with more examples, but I won't. My point is simply that it is possible to provide a rigorous high school education at home that will prepare a child for life.

 

Like all parents on this board, I have spent a lot of time researching the best curricula for each of my children. We have never, nor will we, participate in a co-op, but I do outsource subjects.

 

I am not worried in the least about my kids being able to adjust to a classroom environment. My oldest took a class at the high school last year, and he had no trouble adjusting to the classroom environment at all.

[WIS0320]

 

I've not ever experienced having a student's parent come in to speak to me regarding the student, though.

I'm not sure how many times this happened to her but I know it happened a least a few times in the five years, once for sure in an incidence of plagiarism in which the department head was also involved.

[nono]

I have come to believe, however, that it would be a rare, rare family who can homeschool (without outside classes) math and science adequately for high school.

 

 

Rare, rare? Maybe, but I'm planning on being one of them. ;) Considering that kids in the neighborhood have always sought me out for math and science help, I think I have a pretty good grip on what's needed. Some mamas are actually good in those subjects, despite being female.

 

Math and science were two of my best subjects in high school, but frankly, I'd have learned more if I could have spent the time with less students. Waiting for all the kids who were possibly as talented but high or unmotivated sure curbed me getting as much as I could have out of each year.

 

So, I would argue if the teachers are equal in understanding of the subject and willing to do a good job, a more individualistic environment should produce superior results for a young adult in the maths and sciences.

 

Thinking back to the whole social interaction aspect. Math/science shouldn't be the classes about socializing. I would think business, the arts and languages arts classes would be the place where the "interaction" of peers would be more appropriate.

 

Interesting discussion. :)

[Plucky]

I completely agree with you.

 

I am sending my 10th grader to the community college next year because he really needs to get away from his mother. He needs to learn how to fend for himself and organize himself and deal with failure if that's what it comes to.

 

Also, it's hard work homeschooling a high schooler. Truly. I think that the idea that high schoolers will teach themselves and the parent-teacher doesn't need to be involved very much is a myth propagated by wishful thinking. Sure, some high schoolers do ok with this approach. But there's more to an education than just learning from a book and writing papers. Education is also a social act. An act that I can't completely conjure in my basement no matter what wonderful materials I select. Discussions with mom all the time don't cut it. It is important to learn from people who are passionate about their subjects.

 

The other myth propagated by homeschoolers is that the parent doesn't need to know anything. Just learn along with your children! No problem! Sure, that works in first grade, but as you move up, things get more difficult and it becomes more necessary to be not just one step ahead but *years* ahead. Yes--it is important to *really understand* algebra when teaching fractions. You need to know where you're going.

 

Just as it is not trivial to teach a class of schoolchildren, it is not trivial to be a homeschooling parent. You can't just wing it.

 

I know that a lot of parents homeschool through high school and that was always my plan as well, but my oldest needed to have more independence and to get out from under my thumb at 10th grade so I think you are making a smart decision.

 

Now with my oldest girl, she too needed to be more independent of me. I think our relationship is better for it as well - we were starting to have issues over math. She's very strong-willed and would get annoyed at me when she gets frustrated. Ugh.

 

I am still pro-homeschooling. I hs my youngest 2 right now. I just know that it is not uncommon for teens to need to get their teaching from people outside their family as they get older. It used to make me sad when kids would get sent to high school. I used to think people were just too chicken to teach high school. It can be intimidating I know. I realize now that some kids just need something else. So much of this is learned from the experience of raising kids. :D

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm sure this will get lost in the long list of posts, but it seems as though the co-op, homeschooling, sheltered kids etc., discussion is more about parenting than education. Kids who do well in the homeschool environment, the kind you find on TV or in magazines as the poster child for homeschooling, would do well in any setting- homeschool, private school or boarding school. There are homeschool failures just like there are public school failures.

 

 

I imagine that there is a lot of truth to this, but it's not universal (what is?). In our case, my DD needed a quiet learning environment. The only places I could find that provided that in the early years were kind of punitive and set up a negative view of the kids in their classroom environments. The positive discipline environments were all pretty noisy. In a classroom where conversation is encouraged, my DD will NEVER converse about or pay attention to conversations about the learning material. It's never as engaging as personal stuff to her.

 

So homeschooling was really perfect for her--quiet, focussed, efficient, and positive. She was academically challenged but also emotionally supported. No amount of afterschooling would have given the same results.

 

She has excelled in her private high school because it's a good one and a good fit, and because her needs and the common school environment have meshed perfectly. I hasten to add, she is intelligent and a hard worker. She doesn't have any particular special needs or anything like that, but current pedegogical practices at the elementary level are just a bad fit for her.

 

There have been a lot of other benefits to homeschooling her as well. She is a more nuanced thinker because of it. She has developped into a precociously good writer. She had opportunities for extra-curricular activities that are rare and special (that she totally takes for granted, of course), and for an exquisitely fine tuned pace of study. She is extremely capable socially, and also knows how to be alone. And she has been remarkably free of the 'teen woman' pressure compared to, no joke, EVERYONE else in her high school, thanks in part to our many discussions of societal pressure on women's beauty and to my absolute ban of teen mags and glamour-oriented women's mags in our home, not to mention not having cable TV. She knows confessional Lutheran theology more thoroughly than any other child in our church.

 

While we can look clearly at cautionary tales in the homeschooling community, let's not forget the tremendous benefits of homeschooling. Yes, we should check the fruit on the tree. And definitely, from what I have seen, more often than not that fruit is quite positive.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I've said this on other threads but the issue for me is not specifically whether you choose outside sources or not - it's whether the home educator really treats homeschooling as a job, giving the same energy and priority to it as you would an outside job. Now if you give that sort of energy, you will be aware of if things are working or not and will look for solutions if they are not. I have not been perfect on this, btw, just as I have not always been a perfect employee or a perfect parent. But overall, I think that my attitude has been one of making this a priority and that has stood us in good stead.

 

It took me a while to realize that making teaching a priority doesn't mean that my kids will never have learning challenges. I was panicking every time a challenge would pop up, thinking I had failed my students. Then I realized that it is how we respond to the challenges that is what is important. If you aren't paying attention when you look for solutions you can fall into the trap of thinking that just any outside class or teacher or DVD etc. will solve the problem instead of looking critically at whether the student is really learning. And if they aren't, you will know if it is because of the teacher or curriculum or if it is really because of the student themselves not applying themselves.

[swellmomma]

Rare, rare? Maybe, but I'm planning on being one of them. ;) Considering that kids in the neighborhood have always sought me out for math and science help, I think I have a pretty good grip on what's needed. Some mamas are actually good in those subjects, despite being female.

 

Math and science were two of my best subjects in high school, but frankly, I'd have learned more if I could have spent the time with less students. Waiting for all the kids who were possibly as talented but high or unmotivated sure curbed me getting as much as I could have out of each year.

 

So, I would argue if the teachers are equal in understanding of the subject and willing to do a good job, a more individualistic environment should produce superior results for a young adult in the maths and sciences.

 

Thinking back to the whole social interaction aspect. Math/science shouldn't be the classes about socializing. I would think business, the arts and languages arts classes would be the place where the "interaction" of peers would be more appropriate.

 

Interesting discussion. :)

 

:iagree: Co-ops don't even exist here. I am in a town (well it is actually considered a village) of 750 people. The graduating class at the K-12 school has 15 students in it this year. I am the only homeschooling parent in my whole town, who am I supposed to have a co-op with :D If I need help teaching high school math I will get my sister to teach them (she is a math teacher in a college teaching high school math to adults to help them upgrade). Or I will enroll them in an online course with a willing school board. But I feel I am fully capable of teaching them what they need to know. I do not think that them missing out on the drama of co-ops is going to doom them to academic failure or anything like that.

[WIS0320]

It took me a while to realize that making teaching a priority doesn't mean that my kids will never have learning challenges. I was panicking every time a challenge would pop up, thinking I had failed my students. Then I realized that it is how we respond to the challenges that is what is important. If you aren't paying attention when you look for solutions you can fall into the trap of thinking that just any outside class or teacher or DVD etc. will solve the problem instead of looking critically at whether the student is really learning. And if they aren't, you will know if it is because of the teacher or curriculum or if it is really because of the student themselves not applying themselves.

 

This is so insightful! Thank you.

[Ginevra]

I was a staunch, idealogical homeschooler. Earlier in my homeschooling career, I was even anti-age segregation at church, anti-nursery, anti-preschool. I was against institutional learning, even in private school settings. I didn't like the dynamic that develops with large groups of kids, and few adults.

 

I continued to homeschool in spite of adverse circumstances.

 

My older (homeschool) students began attending outside classes for things like science and math in 7th grade. I guess my staunch homeschooling paradigm began to erode with working outside the home, teaching additional students, being forced to public school one of my kids, and becoming a teacher in a school myself.

 

That is some background for what I am about to post. Let me further preface this by sharing that if I could have homeschooled "only mine" from k - 12, I would have still made that choice; it would be my preference even now.

 

1. I am stunned and saddened at the level of anti co-op and the superior/arrogance that accompanies some of it. By definition, co-ops in this context are homeschool friendly and/or have a high level of parental involvement and educational determination. To me, it's like being against K-12 Charters done at home. :confused:

 

 

2. If you DO use outside classes, and some level of co-op, you have to accept the reality that your children, as a student in a group, will be interacted with by adults with varying levels of training and ability. They will be interacted with with words and styles that are not your preferences.

 

3. Regarding #1 and #2, I don't think we do children any favors by protecting them from outside settings or jumping into situations that do not warrent intervention.

 

4. Many homeschooling parents (IMO, and I was one I am about to talk about) tend to have a higher than mainstream level of assumed "right" to manage other settings. Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

 

My personal truth is that my older homeschooled students (my bio kids and bonus students) benefited from others teaching them subjects I had less skill in. They benefited from "dealing" with a range of styles. They benefited that I didn't jump in every time something was done that wasn't the way *I* would do it. I did jump in, once, over my son's haircut. ;)

 

My other personal truth is that kids can thrive in school settings. Teachers can be *terrific*. I know. I am one; my kids have others. Even the one in public high school.

 

Cherish your homeschooling if you are able to homeschool. :)

 

(Responding only to the OP and not interim responses:)

 

I agree. My journey has been very similar. My oldest is in private school for high school (need to fix my siggy still) and I am very grateful for the experience she's getting.

 

Recently, I spent some time with a young lady who is doing 100% on-line college, after a variety of school experiences which included homeschooling. Though the young lady is very sweet and "good," she really did give me pause as far as social skills. She follows her mom around like a lost puppy. She could not get a summer job at all. Her ability to interact with others does appear to me utterly stunted. I don't think this young lady has been well-served by doing college 100% on-line.

 

I find that to be a good (unfortunate) example of thinking that the protection afforded by homeschooling in elementary school is still imperative or well-serving for an 18-year-old. It's not. Teens are developmentally and biologically ready to begin moving in a wider circle and learning to deal with people who behave differently and/or have different values than the teen's family. Though I believe students can be given those experiences while homeschooling, I have witnessed parents who don't wish for them to have it.

[Jenny in GA]

Yes - she said higher level. Think middle school to (especially) high school. She's not kidding. The reality is frightening. Your oldest is 7? You are dealing with 3rd graders? Things change when you are dealing with 15-18 year olds. Believe me.

 

Could you and/or anyone else please elaborate on this? Thanks.

 

And along the same lines -- for those of you who don't like co-ops or who have found them disappointing, could you elaborate on that? We had never looked into co-ops (yet).

[MIch elle]

I completely agree with you.

 

I am sending my 10th grader to the community college next year because he really needs to get away from his mother. He needs to learn how to fend for himself and organize himself and deal with failure if that's what it comes to.

 

Also, it's hard work homeschooling a high schooler. Truly. I think that the idea that high schoolers will teach themselves and the parent-teacher doesn't need to be involved very much is a myth propagated by wishful thinking. Sure, some high schoolers do ok with this approach. But there's more to an education than just learning from a book and writing papers. Education is also a social act. An act that I can't completely conjure in my basement no matter what wonderful materials I select. Discussions with mom all the time don't cut it. It is important to learn from people who are passionate about their subjects.

 

The other myth propagated by homeschoolers is that the parent doesn't need to know anything. Just learn along with your children! No problem! Sure, that works in first grade, but as you move up, things get more difficult and it becomes more necessary to be not just one step ahead but *years* ahead. Yes--it is important to *really understand* algebra when teaching fractions. You need to know where you're going.

 

Just as it is not trivial to teach a class of schoolchildren, it is not trivial to be a homeschooling parent. You can't just wing it.

 

:iagree: WELL SAID!

 

It's also important how to learn in spite of a weak teacher, and when to seek a teachers assistant or other student assistance. Those that homeschool through high school will learn those lessons when and if they attend college.

[Aelwydd]

We currently homeschool in Texas. We've also homeschooled in Missouri and my sisters homeschooled in Illinois. Honestly, the homeschooling opportunities have been better in Texas. There is enrichment stuff everywhere. My kids have taken several enrichment classes here (that weren't available where we lived before). My oldest two were in a science jeopardy competition, they took a hands-on science class (that was just awesome), they've been on field trips with our homeschool group and they took a history class here that was a blast. We have an enrichment center here that teaches theater, science, math, art, etc. (And most of these classes are for middle school to high school.) There's also a children's orchestra here...and there's a church in FW that has a huge art and music program for homeschoolers.

 

I just don't see why anyone would think homeschooling would be worse in Texas. :confused:

 

As far as "accountability", I think many of those state regs are just for show. We had tougher state laws on homeschooling in MO (and we followed those laws), but...at the end of the day...our homeschool looked exactly the same as it does here in TX.

 

It looked the same for you, because you are comparing your family to your family. I home school in Texas as well, and my son's education is also rigorous. However, for all of the co-ops and enrichment activities that are here, that doesn't mean that these activities are in and of themselves, going to change the overall environment or attitudes of education here.

 

There is a reason why Texas consistently lags behind many other states in math, science, and other subjects. And it's not all because of the evil public schools. The public schools here are a symptom of the problem--not the underlying cause. The problem, IMO, is that education here has become an issue of religion and politics, instead of evidence.

 

That is why critical thinking skills are so weak among not just children, but adults. Texas is not the only state with this problem, it's just one of the more egregious offenders. You cannot ever produce highly critical thinkers when the goal is to produce people to believe a certain way, before the evidence is ever reviewed. And FWIW, that mentality seems to be extent in both sides of the political spectrum.

 

Finally, I do think that standards matter. In this state, a parent can claim to be schooling their child, and never have to produce any proof. Furthermore, this state does not even require home schoolers to teach science as a subject. At all. I remain highly skeptical of any claims that a population of children schooled under such lax standards will produce the same quality of students as those held to much higher standards.

[Halftime Hope]

Could you and/or anyone else please elaborate on this? Thanks.

 

And along the same lines -- for those of you who don't like co-ops or who have found them disappointing, could you elaborate on that? We had never looked into co-ops (yet).

 

Ria has had some very disappointing first-hand experience with co-ops. As you can see from one of the other threads, many of us have had great experiences with co-ops. I don't think you can paint all co-ops as similar, at all.

 

Some co-ops are strictly for enrichment and social activities. Depending on the family's need, that kind of co-op may be just the ticket, or it may be a huge waste of valuable time. (That was our stance.)

 

Some co-ops are academic co-ops. (This is the kind that has worked for us at various points in our lives.)

 

Families have varying things that they want from co-ops, and teachers have varying degrees of effort that they put in. It is wise to really know what you are getting before committing.

 

FWIW, I once released a family (one out of 30 students) due to a complete mismatch on the family's expectations vs. mine. I've only taught high school classes, but I'm thinking about a new mantra for my high school classes: don't come to class if you haven't put in as much time/work as I did. :lol:

[Carol in Cal.]

Recently, I spent some time with a young lady who is doing 100% on-line college, after a variety of school experiences which included homeschooling. Though the young lady is very sweet and "good," she really did give me pause as far as social skills. She follows her mom around like a lost puppy. She could not get a summer job at all. Her ability to interact with others does appear to me utterly stunted. I don't think this young lady has been well-served by doing college 100% on-line.

 

 

Do we know whether this is because of homeschooling, or whether she is homeschooled at least partly because she is like this?