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Like a blog post, but I don't blog. Musings from a former homeschooler who teaches


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I was a staunch, idealogical homeschooler. Earlier in my homeschooling career, I was even anti-age segregation at church, anti-nursery, anti-preschool. I was against institutional learning, even in private school settings. I didn't like the dynamic that develops with large groups of kids, and few adults.

 

I continued to homeschool in spite of adverse circumstances.

 

My older (homeschool) students began attending outside classes for things like science and math in 7th grade. I guess my staunch homeschooling paradigm began to erode with working outside the home, teaching additional students, being forced to public school one of my kids, and becoming a teacher in a school myself.

 

That is some background for what I am about to post. Let me further preface this by sharing that if I could have homeschooled "only mine" from k - 12, I would have still made that choice; it would be my preference even now.

 

1. I am stunned and saddened at the level of anti co-op and the superior/arrogance that accompanies some of it. By definition, co-ops in this context are homeschool friendly and/or have a high level of parental involvement and educational determination. To me, it's like being against K-12 Charters done at home. :confused:

 

 

2. If you DO use outside classes, and some level of co-op, you have to accept the reality that your children, as a student in a group, will be interacted with by adults with varying levels of training and ability. They will be interacted with with words and styles that are not your preferences.

 

3. Regarding #1 and #2, I don't think we do children any favors by protecting them from outside settings or jumping into situations that do not warrent intervention.

 

4. Many homeschooling parents (IMO, and I was one I am about to talk about) tend to have a higher than mainstream level of assumed "right" to manage other settings. Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

 

My personal truth is that my older homeschooled students (my bio kids and bonus students) benefited from others teaching them subjects I had less skill in. They benefited from "dealing" with a range of styles. They benefited that I didn't jump in every time something was done that wasn't the way *I* would do it. I did jump in, once, over my son's haircut. ;)

 

My other personal truth is that kids can thrive in school settings. Teachers can be *terrific*. I know. I am one; my kids have others. Even the one in public high school.

 

Cherish your homeschooling if you are able to homeschool. :)

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Well, my dear, you know you are singing to the choir in my case. I well remember you disagreeing with me years ago. As I would have done years earlier to anyone else. Exposure to the other side certainly opens one's eyes, eh?

 

You are, without a doubt, one of my heroines. I respect you. For so many reasons. I also do believe that in many ways we are kindred spirits.

 

PM me. :D

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I think that perhaps you do not comprehend the deeper reasons some homeschoolers oppose co-ops. I'd elaborate on that a little here, but to be honest, your post has a little too much "finger wagging" for me to believe that you are really searching for understanding from other points of view.

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I think that perhaps you do not comprehend the deeper reasons some homeschoolers oppose co-ops. I'd elaborate on that a little here, but to be honest, your post has a little too much "finger wagging" for me to believe that you are really searching for understanding from other points of view.

 

I hear your point on finger wagging.

 

But I homeschooled for over 10 years, sought many avenues of like minded support, reading material, and information. You are not talking to someone who is ignorant about the range of opinions and viewpoints in homeschooling.

 

I *don't* want the other view. You are welcome to post it, of course, but that is not why I posted this particular thread. I do personally believe that insular homeschooling in the long term, and being against "co-ops" categorically represents a mentality that does not serve children in the long run.

 

I have a high school senior who recently pulled out of my Rhetoric and Comp class because we went over, in class, everyone's essay on their plan for doing well in school. We went over everyone's. It was an assignment so that I could judge everyone's current ability to organize an academic essay and write. I gave him feedback. He didn't like it and mom let him bail. THAT is what my post was about.

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Well, my dear, you know you are singing to the choir in my case. I well remember you disagreeing with me years ago. As I would have done years earlier to anyone else. Exposure to the other side certainly opens one's eyes, eh?

 

You are, without a doubt, one of my heroines. I respect you. For so many reasons. I also do believe that in many ways we are kindred spirits.

 

PM me. :D

 

Oh, gosh, I remember arguing with you!

 

Honestly, Ria, I am aghast at what I see. Having worked in public schools, I was already getting the polish worn off my homeschool high horse. The progression has been like this:

 

1. Staunch homeschooler, unwilling and unable to see that homeschoolers might have failed on any measurable scale.

 

2. Ok, some homeschoolers might have missed the mark. But many of those simply choose another teaching style, or educational paradigm.

 

3. Ok, some homeschoolers do not teach upper levels well.

 

4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

5. To be determined.

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4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

This being the case, why would one then be in great favor of co-ops? Same inadequate people, but now they're teaching your kids.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

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I'm 'against' co-ops but only because I find them to be as useless as Sunday schools for my own particular children. They are exercises in boredom, at best, and I don't like my children to equate learning with boredom. I also don't want them to learn the ways that homeschoolers fake learning, and we've seen that in co-ops, too.

 

IMVHO (and experience), co-ops are a great opportunity for people who are homeschooling because they couldn't get along with others to try to boss each other around. Queen Bees. Wannabees. Dysfunction.

 

Now, if I were ever able to find a diverse, high-caliber, rigorous or accelerated co-op taught by a person more qualified than myself (for a price I could afford, within easy driving distance), I'd probably give it a try, but the co-ops I've found around here are a waste of time.

 

My children participate in sports, Civil Air Patrol, and other civic and community organizations of many kinds. They get lots of opportunities to follow the leadership of adults who are nothing like their mother. I don't hover, either, or try to micro-manage CAP commanders or TKD instructors, so I'm not worried that my kids will be too dainty to hear someone tell them to knock it off.

 

So I guess I'm having a problem with the paradigm presented in the OP. I think I can be 'against' co-ops but still be 'for' independent, non-sissy kids who are able to learn from and spend time with a wide diversity of people.

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This being the case, why would one then be in great favor of co-ops? Same inadequate people, but now they're teaching your kids.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

Exactly. I don't trust other homeschoolers, TBH. I personally like homeschoolers, generally, and I even get along with (gasp) unschoolers, but I am not likely to trust my child's education to another homeschooling Mom unless she has extensive experience and education in the subject she is teaching.

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I have a high school senior who recently pulled out of my Rhetoric and Comp class because we went over, in class, everyone's essay on their plan for doing well in school. We went over everyone's. It was an assignment so that I could judge everyone's current ability to organize an academic essay and write. I gave him feedback. He didn't like it and mom let him bail. THAT is what my post was about.

 

:iagree:

 

I'd be all over *that* sort of co-op, but we don't do them because they all have such low expectations. Case in point, my son was ready to take physical science and algebra this year. Our local co-op wouldn't let him in because he is in 7th grade and those are 8th and 9th grade classes. Seriously. It truly is a waste of academic time.

 

Another issue that I have is that the kids at co-op are all sooo sheltered. I really have a problem with parents who only want their kids to associate with other homeschooled kids who attend x-church.

 

I've found that we have better luck doing the few things that are offered through the public schools in the area or the community college or through community sports. We LOVE our community sports programs and I can't imagine ever doing an only homeschooled team.

 

Since I took over leadership for our FLL team, the first step I took was to open it to anyone from the community who was interested with a view toward making sure it was NOT all homeschooled teams. We are loving it! Our coaches/mentors include a the head of a college biology dept. and a middle school math teacher and me. We'll be a stronger team with the well-rounded and easy going PS kids in the mix. And yes, many, many homeschooled kids don't know how to behave in a class situation. On our team, it is always a homeschooled student who has to be called down for wasting the group's time or being disrespectful.

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Great post! Preaching to the choir too. I actually like my kids to have *some* exposure to different teaching personalities/group dynamics. We have not had good luck with parents teaching in a co-op setting. But have generally had FANTASTIC luck with degree holding professionals teaching small groups of engaged kids in open ended areas.

 

My oldest went to 2 years of school. It wasn't a good fit for him. If either wanted another go around with school, we'd allow it. Preferably NOT for the jr. high years, but if they pushed hard enough we'd find something. The most successful schooled kids I know have HIGHLY engaged parents that are almost working as hard as I am homeschooling both. With the advocacy and volunteering I was doing with my oldest, it actually did feel easier to homeschool for a year. I found navigating that system with his personality and intensity very difficult. Even this is a high achieving, high demand school.

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3. Regarding #1 and #2, I don't think we do children any favors by protecting them from outside settings or jumping into situations that do not warrent intervention.

 

 

Just wanted to say I agree with this. I am not entirely sure why some kids are sheltered in this way. I probably tend towards being overprotective in some ways, but I do believe in making sure my kids are exposed to a lot of different ideas and people.

 

I will say that parents intervening when not necessary is not purely a homeschool issue. I hear a lot of stories about parents intervening unnecessarily from my mom who is a teacher.

 

I think it keeps kids from learning to trust themselves and/or learn coping skills when parents protect them to the point of isolation (or only being around like-minded people). (or jump in when they don't need to)

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We co op. I also have a child in private school who has only ever been in private school (and not homeschooled).

 

As I read your post and the one which followed, what struck me was that you began homeschooling with a paradigm based on some beliefs about homeschoolers in general, as a larger group. It seems to have been a passion for you, and you fell onto one end of the homeschooling continuum, per your own description as best as I understand it.

 

Because I didn't choose homeschooling as much as it chose me (due to a child with anxiety and learning disabilities), I didn't really form a global view of homeschooling prior to begining my own journey. I knew some homeschoolers whom I respected. I had a vague positive view of homeschooling. I didn't ever believe that homeschooling was the only right choice for everyone..or even for most people...or that there was only one "right" way to do it. My views and focus were on my own kids and homeschooling experience, not the larger picture of homeschooling. I chose homeschooling in the same manner I chose natural childbirth - because it was the only real option for my child/birth experiences, not because it was ever my passion. Interesting, both natural childbirth and homeschooling have become more passionate issues for me.

 

If there is a point to all of this:tongue_smilie:, it might be that there are two "types" of homeschoolers, the "macro" type and the "micro" type. You started out as the macro type. I started out as the micro type and remain such. (And this is what happens when I have too much time on my hands on a Sunday afternoon.:tongue_smilie:)

Edited by texasmama
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I'm 'against' co-ops but only because I find them to be as useless as Sunday schools for my own particular children. They are exercises in boredom, at best, and I don't like my children to equate learning with boredom. I also don't want them to learn the ways that homeschoolers fake learning, and we've seen that in co-ops, too.

 

Now, if I were ever able to find a diverse, high-caliber, rigorous or accelerated co-op taught by a person more qualified than myself (for a price I could afford, within easy driving distance), I'd probably give it a try, but the co-ops I've found around here are a waste of time.

 

So I guess I'm having a problem with the paradigm presented in the OP. I think I can be 'against' co-ops but still be 'for' independent, non-sissy kids who are able to learn from and spend time with a wide diversity of people.

 

:iagree:

 

I have been teaching in public and private schools and co-ops for 16 years in a variety of settings (all different income levels, all diffent ethnicities, secular, religious, you name it... I've taught it) and I can say with confidence that about 70% of teachers in any setting are not very good at teaching.

 

I agree that homeschoolers often struggle to adapt to classroom dynamcis at first. But they all eventually get it. Some sooner. Some later. And I think those group dynamics are unique to classrooms (versus boy scouts or sports, etc). So learning in a classroom setting is a valuable experience "in general."

 

But I definitely do not agree that co-ops or classrooms are always a valuable experience. It takes a lot of skill to LEAD a class... A skill the majority of teachers sadly lack.

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I only homeschooled all subjects in early elementary. And at that time I offered a "science class" to other children weekly at my home. My ds also attended a science class away from home, but I didn't considered it part of our curriculum--ds likes sciences and likes talking about science for him in second grade it was actually a social activity.

 

As my kids got older we did outside classes, but not actual co ops. Outside classes were for writing, French and Latin, areas way out of my expertise (BS Chem).

 

I think some people have an objection to co ops because not all co ops have parents teaching in their area of strength. If the teacher is not presenting material that is his/her are of strength the class is unlikely to be a good experience.

 

I think having other teachers who are well versed in their subject matter is very good for any student. I sought out people who seemed to be experts in the subjects I knew I would not present well at home. If it was possible to find experts in the exact subjects I needed to supplement in one co op I would have gone with that, but I had to go with individual teachers here and there.

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The biggest disappointment I have had with 14 years of home schooling is the community of home schoolers that I have interacted with in person. Online I have learned many things from many savy moms and dads. In person the majority of home schooling parents I have met IRL are difficult to say the least. And I am one of them. I can be as stubborn and opinionated as any of them. As a community we do not lift each other up enough, we squabble, we worry about who is more holy if we are Christian, we worry about who can be the most relaxed unschooler or pick on people who sign statements of faith if we are not.

 

I am not enrolled in a coop because my children do not have the perfect holiness gene of shyness that seems to mark "good" children in the Christian coop we did belong to. The secular coops in our area look down on me for attending church and worry about my children evangelizing theirs even though my children are clearly not evangelists. I have learned that there is no part of the home schooling communtiy where I can belong. It has been a bitter lesson, but I have learned it well.

 

That said, I still choose home schooling over my local schools because the high schools in my area are below my academic standards. I know when my son goes to college next week people will look at his handwriting and say it is bad because he is home schooled. No one will know that all the men in my family all have disgraphsia and his handwriting is much better than my father or brothers'. Home schooling will be blamed.

 

Everything about my kids that has not been up to someone elses' standards has been blamed on home schooling. But young moms ask me about home schooling all the time when they see how kind, how fun, and how smart my kids can be. Over all it has been a rough ride, but worth it so far.

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Maybe co-ops weren't the best example. Certainly not on par with virtual charters as a rule. In my experience (and I know there will be exceptions) co-ops are a joke--fake school married to fake homeschooling. Spoken by a long-term homeschooling mom who has also utilized charter schools, cyber charters, regular public schools, and community college and university concurrent enrollment.

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I started out a lot like you Joanne and have had roughly the same arc in thinking to the point where I'm considering whether to see if my daughter can attend a class or two at one of the local middle schools to get some classroom experience.

 

Co-ops just aren't an option where I am, out in the boonies.

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I both agree and disagree. I know my dh's own experience teaching college and having some homeschooled kids has not been the experience you seem to have. Most of them have never been taught by anyone besides Mom and maybe Sunday school. But they do perfectly in a class setting. Now I'm sure not all homeschooled kids *ever* have done perfectly, but neither do public schooled kids. I know because I was one of them. :lol:

 

I am pro-co-op for us, but I can see why not everyone would want to use a co-op. I consider ours a social activity more than a learning experience. I would like a more intense one in some ways, but it's not necessary. My kids have taken music lessons, group sports lessons, play on teams, and have taken museum and science center classroom classes with no problems.

 

And :iagree: to Anne in Ore.

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I hear your point on finger wagging.

 

But I homeschooled for over 10 years, sought many avenues of like minded support, reading material, and information. You are not talking to someone who is ignorant about the range of opinions and viewpoints in homeschooling.

 

I *don't* want the other view. You are welcome to post it, of course, but that is not why I posted this particular thread. I do personally believe that insular homeschooling in the long term, and being against "co-ops" categorically represents a mentality that does not serve children in the long run.

 

I have a high school senior who recently pulled out of my Rhetoric and Comp class because we went over, in class, everyone's essay on their plan for doing well in school. We went over everyone's. It was an assignment so that I could judge everyone's current ability to organize an academic essay and write. I gave him feedback. He didn't like it and mom let him bail. THAT is what my post was about.

 

Yes...BUT, you are where you are at, and got there by your experiences. There is a wide range of opinions on homeschoooling, and many have changed their stances, like you, through their homeschool careers.

No one needs to get preachy or finger wagging over their opinions...because 10 years down, those are bound to change as well.

 

So, you had a bad egg in a co-op class. Happens. Kids have great teachers...they can have crappy teacher. Happens. So what?

 

I know you don't want to hear staunch homeschool rah-rahs, because that is not where you are at right now...and that is OK. Those of us who homeschool are in a different place, and that is ok too.

 

Maybe we should all just throw in the towel because we are doing our kids a disservice by homeschooling them??:confused: I am really not sure of the point of your post. There is enough homeschool bashing around here...jeez. I find it quite tiresome...

 

To each his own I guess.

 

Faithe

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I look at our co-op as more of a fun, social experience. But we belong to a relaxed co-op full of unschoolers. I don't care if it's academic, I just want it to be engaging and it is. We looked at other co-ops in our area and I wasn't impressed, they weren't what we were looking for partially because my ds has plenty of "school" experience. We needed a change and we are getting it, we'll see how my opinion changes over the years with this grand experiment.

 

And thanks for your words, I think it's enlightening to read what others have to say.

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My experience is that homeschooled kids vary more than the public school kids that I know. Homeschoolers tend to be more extreme. Either they are VERY able to converse and feel comfortable with adults (most commonly) or not at ALL comfortable with adults (sometimes.) Either they are very well prepared, or not prepared at all. I think some of this is just selection bias. Kids that are doing very well tend not to show up in classes that teach the basics, because they don't need help in that area. Kids who struggle with writing sometimes show up in writing classes specifically because the mom is looking for an alternative approach because nothing has worked so far. There is a lot of selection bias both in who homeschools and in which homeschoolers attend coop classes.

 

My overall impression of homeschoolers around here is that they are better with adults, academically a bit ahead, less likely to question assignments, more likely to drop classes midway if they don't like them, and much more able to follow their passions. There are some really, really badly prepared homeschoolers that give the rest a bad name, for sure. I have seen them. And there are some 'unparents' who almost single handedly make the case for state intervention--something that I resent tremendously.

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.

 

4. Many homeschooling parents (IMO, and I was one I am about to talk about) tend to have a higher than mainstream level of assumed "right" to manage other settings. Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

 

:)

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have recently started teaching a SS class at our church. We had a about 15 kids in class today. Only four or five came prepared today. Only three or four consistently paid attention in class. Only two were able to answer each question. By far, the top three students in the class were the three homeschool students. Maybe you meant older students? These were third graders. You said at higher levels which I assume means high schoolish. I'm wondering how students that are at ease in a class setting and high performing in grade school aren't in high school.

 

I think one's view on homeschooling is very dependant on personal experiences. The homeschoolers I know (with the exception of 1 or 2 families) take their kids' educations very seriously.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have recently started teaching a SS class at our church. We had a about 15 kids in class today. Only four or five came prepared today. Only three or four consistently paid attention in class. Only two were able to answer each question. By far, the top three students in the class were the three homeschool students. Maybe you meant older students? These were third graders.

 

I think one's view on homeschooling is very dependant on personal experiences. The homeschoolers I know (with the exception of 1 or 2 families) take their kids' educations very seriously.

 

Yes - she said higher level. Think middle school to (especially) high school. She's not kidding. The reality is frightening. Your oldest is 7? You are dealing with 3rd graders? Things change when you are dealing with 15-18 year olds. Believe me.

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So I guess I'm having a problem with the paradigm presented in the OP. I think I can be 'against' co-ops but still be 'for' independent, non-sissy kids who are able to learn from and spend time with a wide diversity of people.

 

This as well for me. I don't know of any co-op that I'd fit into and I don't want to bother with one, but I think there are other ways for my kids to have outside experiences and learn to deal with others as teachers. At the high school level, I'm pretty sure my daughters will take CC classes if possible.

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Yes - she said higher level. Think middle school to (especially) high school. She's not kidding. The reality is frightening. Your oldest is 7? You are dealing with 3rd graders? Things change when you are dealing with 15-18 year olds. Believe me.

 

This has certainly NOT been my experience at all.

 

I have 3 kids in their 20's who were exclusively homeschooled. No co-op, no outside classes other than swim team or art classes, none.

 

All 3 went to college or are still in college.

 

My 2 girls were 4.0 students, had tons of friends, were active in school activities etc. DS was never very academic...but he has no problem with classes at.all.

 

My girlfirend has 3 kids who were exclusively homeschooled up until the oldest went to college...her 2nd child went into high school in 11th grade...and her dd went into high school at 9th grade. None of these kids had any trouble adjusting to school.

 

My SIL homeschooled her dd through high school, and her ds up until 9th grade. Again...no co-ops, no outside classes except for dance or swim team. Again, these kids had absolutely no problem adjusting to school setting when the time came.

 

I don't know where you are getting this information, unless it is just from your own experience. My experience has been quite the opposite. I think it is ridiculous to make a blanket statement that homeschooled kids will be stunted if they are not exposed to outside classes or teachers by a certain age. I think it is nonsense....sorry.

 

By the way, I know lots of public and private schooled kids who went away to college and flunked out because they could not acclimate to their new surroundings. Does that mean that ALL PS or private schooled kids will have trouble in college??

 

I am just:confused: by these statements and would hate for a young homeschooling mom to be swayed away from schooling her kids because of someone else's bad experience.

 

Faithe

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Yes...BUT, you are where you are at, and got there by your experiences. There is a wide range of opinions on homeschoooling, and many have changed their stances, like you, through their homeschool careers.

No one needs to get preachy or finger wagging over their opinions...because 10 years down, those are bound to change as well.

 

So, you had a bad egg in a co-op class. Happens. Kids have great teachers...they can have crappy teacher. Happens. So what?

 

I know you don't want to hear staunch homeschool rah-rahs, because that is not where you are at right now...and that is OK. Those of us who homeschool are in a different place, and that is ok too.

 

Maybe we should all just throw in the towel because we are doing our kids a disservice by homeschooling them??:confused: I am really not sure of the point of your post. There is enough homeschool bashing around here...jeez. I find it quite tiresome...

 

To each his own I guess.

 

Faithe

 

 

This is a discussion board. It is a discussion board for classical educators. I classically educated my children at home for 10+ years.

 

I teach (in a traditional-ish) setting now.

 

There have been repetitive posts on co-ops, teachers, quality of education, and "how should this adult have interacted with my child" posts. You don't see why I'd post? The first point: this is a discussion forum, is plenty of reason. The rest offers a context for my content.

 

I have been, on this board and during the course of my entire online life, a staunch homeschool advocate. Even now, I will answer "should I sent my child to school" posts with encouragement to find homeschooling solutions.

 

I am pro-homeschooling. Truly pro-homeschooling. I'm anti-homeschooling with the idea that there aren't glaring issues in education/socialization in the homeschool population.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have recently started teaching a SS class at our church. We had a about 15 kids in class today. Only four or five came prepared today. Only three or four consistently paid attention in class. Only two were able to answer each question. By far, the top three students in the class were the three homeschool students. Maybe you meant older students? These were third graders. You said at higher levels which I assume means high schoolish. I'm wondering how students that are at ease in a class setting and high performing in grade school aren't in high school.

 

I think one's view on homeschooling is very dependant on personal experiences. The homeschoolers I know (with the exception of 1 or 2 families) take their kids' educations very seriously.

 

The lowest grade class I teach is a 4/5 grade math class. They still tend, as a group, to be highly compliant and prepared (regardless of where they have been educated).

 

The dropping off and discrepencies I am talking about are from older students.

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This is a discussion board. It is a discussion board for classical educators. I classically educated my children at home for 10+ years.

 

I teach (in a traditional-ish) setting now.

 

There have been repetitive posts on co-ops, teachers, quality of education, and "how should this adult have interacted with my child" posts. You don't see why I'd post? The first point: this is a discussion forum, is plenty of reason. The rest offers a context for my content.

 

I have been, on this board and during the course of my entire online life, a staunch homeschool advocate. Even now, I will answer "should I sent my child to school" posts with encouragement to find homeschooling solutions.

 

I am pro-homeschooling. Truly pro-homeschooling. I'm anti-homeschooling with the idea that there aren't glaring issues in education/socialization in the homeschool population.

 

Yup..I get it. I was discussing too. I think your premise was narrow. Just saying.

 

Faithe

 

ETA: Just for the record, I am pro education. I think options need to be open and families need to make their decisions based on the opportunities that become available. I am not anti-co-op, nor anti- outsourcing, nor anti- public school. I am anti-one size fits all. I have BTDT enough to know that I don't know everything. I have also been around with you Joanne for years and years. I am not being snippy at you...I just did not agree with your post and didn't want some young mom to come away with the idea that if she homeschooled exclusively her kids would end up socially backward and unable to "make it" in the "real world."

Edited by Mommyfaithe
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I am just:confused: by these statements and would hate for a young homeschooling mom to be swayed away from schooling her kids because of someone else's bad experience.

 

Faithe

 

Then you are unfamiliar with my history on this board with regard to homeschoolers, and encouraging them to find ways to continue to homeschool.

 

You might be unfamiliar with the lengths I went to to continue to homeschool my own.

 

I am very inclined to encourage homeschooling, even now. My "bad experience" hasn't been with homeschooling mine.

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The problem with broad brushes is that they paint stereotypes. I hate the "denim jumper wearing ultra religious homeschooler" stereotype that I am labeled by some in my community (even though I don't wear a denim jumper). I hate the "anti-government conspiracy theorist homeschooler" stereotype that I was labeled by the defense attorney in a trial when he was trying to throw me out. I agree that the "in college by 12, always getting straight A" stereotype is just that - a stereotype. But I don't really like it being replaced with the "slacker, apron strings hampered whiner homeschooler" label either. The problem with stereotypes is that they are all true and false at the same time. There are examples of each one of the stereotypes I mentioned and of course tons of people who would fit other stereotypes as well or maybe be in a category all their own. I don't mind the content of such posts which can serve as warning beacons to those of us in homeschooling community IF they are modified by words like "some" and "in some cases". I re-read your OP and it does have those modifiers. I think we need to remember that while we might not need these particular warnings, some in our community do.

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
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Yes - she said higher level. Think middle school to (especially) high school. She's not kidding. The reality is frightening. Your oldest is 7? You are dealing with 3rd graders? Things change when you are dealing with 15-18 year olds. Believe me.

 

You know? Whatever. (Man, I'm cranky this weekend.) It doesn't have to change, in fact, I'm betting it doesn't. I'm betting those who don't do well at higher levels didn't with the younger grades, either.

 

I really believe we are shocked when we see such things because we expect everyone to be just like us, highly motivated.

 

In public school the kids are not, they are all over the board. Just like our kids will not be, if we are not highly motivated educators ourselves. Any group will have parents that span a range of possibilities, be it public school. private school, or homeschoolers.

 

The only sad thing that I see about it is that in public school or private school, there is a chance that an unmotivated student will run into someone who helps them find something they didn't have modeled for them. In homeschooling, I would think that outside spark would be harder to find. That's sad.

 

As far as classroom behavior. That is much lower on my Concern List than 1) not having a work ethic, 2) not having *any* ethics (you mentioned grade changing), or 3) having parents always making excuses, so that a student never learns to "just get it done." Those concerns are not certainly not unique to homeschoolers.

 

As far as whether homeschoolers are doing well: I'm betting there's a bell-curve on that. I see kids all over the place, but the local state uni (over 23K students) courts homeschooled kids and offered my dd one of their 6 full-ride+ scholarships. At the LA she chose, the Honors Director told me they've had great success with homeschoolers because they are such curious, well-educated, independently-motivated types, who are used to thinking cross-curricularly. (That's a big deal in this program.)

 

Those of us who pour our lives into our kids education should do well. Those who slack probably will have other results. The rub comes when we expect others to educate the way we do.

 

ETA: exactly half of my dd's credits were from outside sources: the local uni, tutorials, and our local *scholastic* co-op. (Self-labeled; the moms who set it up were rigorous homeschoolers.)

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The lowest grade class I teach is a 4/5 grade math class. They still tend, as a group, to be highly compliant and prepared (regardless of where they have been educated).

 

The dropping off and discrepencies I am talking about are from older students.

 

So what do you think happens at home between 4/5 grade and the older grades to make students respond poorly in a classroom situation (besides the normal teen attitude problems that happen regardless of where they are doing school)? Is there something you would recommend for people to be diligent about at home during those years besides putting the kids in outside classes?

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Then you are unfamiliar with my history on this board with regard to homeschoolers, and encouraging them to find ways to continue to homeschool.

 

You might be unfamiliar with the lengths I went to to continue to homeschool my own.

 

I am very inclined to encourage homeschooling, even now. My "bad experience" hasn't been with homeschooling mine.

 

I am not unfamiliar with your history...and I know that you would love to continue homeschooling your kids. BUT, that was not what the OP espoused. Some that have not been around as long as I have would not know. You are a very respected person on this board, and for good reason. You give sound advice. I just happen to not agree with what you posted about the necessity of outside teachers/ mentors. I have not had that same experience. I know many, many homeschooled kids for many years. I have seen them grow up from babyhood to adulthood. I do not see where any of them are having trouble moving into classroom experierences any more than other-schooled kids. I just don't see it. And to let that type of advice go unchecked or unchallenged would not be fair to those who have not had the benefit of experience and time to get the experience..

 

Are co-ops, outsourcing, etc. good for kids?? sometimes.

 

Are co-ops, outsourcing, etc. necessary for ALL homeschooled kids?? no. I do not believe so.

 

It is ok to disagree about this. It is not a personal disagreement. I felt it necessary to point out the other side of the coin.

 

Faithe

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Yes...BUT, you are where you are at, and got there by your experiences. There is a wide range of opinions on homeschoooling, and many have changed their stances, like you, through their homeschool careers.

No one needs to get preachy or finger wagging over their opinions...because 10 years down, those are bound to change as well.

 

So, you had a bad egg in a co-op class. Happens. Kids have great teachers...they can have crappy teacher. Happens. So what?

 

I know you don't want to hear staunch homeschool rah-rahs, because that is not where you are at right now...and that is OK. Those of us who homeschool are in a different place, and that is ok too.

 

Maybe we should all just throw in the towel because we are doing our kids a disservice by homeschooling them??:confused: I am really not sure of the point of your post. There is enough homeschool bashing around here...jeez. I find it quite tiresome...

 

To each his own I guess.

 

Faithe

:iagree:

This has certainly NOT been my experience at all.

 

I have 3 kids in their 20's who were exclusively homeschooled. No co-op, no outside classes other than swim team or art classes, none.

 

All 3 went to college or are still in college.

 

My 2 girls were 4.0 students, had tons of friends, were active in school activities etc. DS was never very academic...but he has no problem with classes at.all.

 

My girlfirend has 3 kids who were exclusively homeschooled up until the oldest went to college...her 2nd child went into high school in 11th grade...and her dd went into high school at 9th grade. None of these kids had any trouble adjusting to school.

 

My SIL homeschooled her dd through high school, and her ds up until 9th grade. Again...no co-ops, no outside classes except for dance or swim team. Again, these kids had absolutely no problem adjusting to school setting when the time came.

 

I don't know where you are getting this information, unless it is just from your own experience. My experience has been quite the opposite. I think it is ridiculous to make a blanket statement that homeschooled kids will be stunted if they are not exposed to outside classes or teachers by a certain age. I think it is nonsense....sorry.

 

By the way, I know lots of public and private schooled kids who went away to college and flunked out because they could not acclimate to their new surroundings. Does that mean that ALL PS or private schooled kids will have trouble in college??

 

I am just:confused: by these statements and would hate for a young homeschooling mom to be swayed away from schooling her kids because of someone else's bad experience.

 

Faithe

:iagree:

You know? Whatever. (Man, I'm cranky this weekend.) It doesn't have to change, in fact, I'm betting it doesn't. I'm betting those who don't do well at higher levels didn't with the younger grades, either.

 

I really believe we are shocked when we see such things because we expect everyone to be just like us, highly motivated.

 

In public school the kids are not, they are all over the board. Just like our kids will not be, if we are not highly motivated educators ourselves. Any group will have parents that span a range of possibilities, be it public school. private school, or homeschoolers.

 

The only sad thing that I see about it is that in public school or private school, there is a chance that an unmotivated student will run into someone who helps them find something they didn't have modeled for them. In homeschooling, I would think that outside spark would be harder to find. That's sad.

 

As far as classroom behavior. That is much lower on my Concern List than 1) not having a work ethic, 2) not having *any* ethics (you mentioned grade changing), or 3) having parents always making excuses, so that a student never learns to "just get it done." Those concerns are not certainly not unique to homeschoolers.

 

As far as whether homeschoolers are doing well: I'm betting there's a bell-curve on that. I see kids all over the place, but the local state uni (over 23K students) courts homeschooled kids and offered my dd one of their 6 full-ride+ scholarships. At the LA she chose, the Honors Director told me they've had great success with homeschoolers because they are such curious, well-educated, independently-motivated types, who are used to thinking cross-curricularly. (That's a big deal in this program.)

 

Those of us who pour our lives into our kids education should do well. Those who slack probably will have other results. The rub comes when we expect others to educate the way we do.

 

ETA: exactly half of my dd's credits were from outside sources: the local uni, tutorials, and our local *scholastic* co-op. (Self-labeled; the moms who set it up were rigorous homeschoolers.)

:iagree:

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The problem with broad brushes is that they paint stereotypes. I hate the "denim jumper wearing ultra religious homeschooler" stereotype that I am labeled by some in my community (even though I don't wear a denim jumper). I hate the "anti-government conspiracy theorist homeschooler" stereotype that I was labeled by the defense attorney in a trial when he was trying to throw me out. I agree that the "in college by 12, always getting straight A" stereotype is just that - a stereotype. But I don't really like it being replaced with the "slacker, apron strings hampered whiner homeschooler" label either. The problem with stereotypes is that they are all true and false at the same time. There are examples of each one of the stereotypes I mentioned and of course tons of people who would fit other stereotypes as well or maybe be in a category all their own. I don't mind the content of such posts which can serve as warning beacons to those of us in homeschooling community IF they are modified by words like "some" and "in some cases". I re-read your OP and it does have those modifiers. I think we need to remember that while we might not need these particular warnings, some in our community do.

 

Thanks for noticing the modifiers.

 

I think it's important to talk about. Homeschoolers tend to offer fairly predictable studies, responses, and ideas when they are criticized. I've offered many of those myself over the years. ;)

 

We tend to, as a group, ignore when confronted with suggestions that there might be some issues with the homeschooling community. I did; I've seen it on this board and others.

 

My personal experience has confirmed the specifics that others have said.

 

(Although I do still "wonder" about the public school teacher who knows copious amounts of stilted homeschoolers, because the numbers of homeschoolers just don't reinforce that many public school teachers will have had contact with that many homeschoolers.)

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Maybe co-ops weren't the best example. Certainly not on par with virtual charters as a rule. In my experience (and I know there will be exceptions) co-ops are a joke--fake school married to fake homeschooling. Spoken by a long-term homeschooling mom who has also utilized charter schools, cyber charters, regular public schools, and community college and university concurrent enrollment.

 

 

Exactly. The co-op discussed in the "knock it off" thread was a highly organized academic co-op.

 

The administrator of this academic co-op asked this teacher to offer her skills in her area of expertise in a subject that would not normally be available in high school co-ops. This teacher's credentials included university level teaching experience in her field as well as years of practical experience in the workforce.

 

Being both service-minded and practical, this teacher thought it would be a great idea to trade her skills in return for help in learning how to use a certain popular ABC curriculum in a different subject area with her own children. In fact, the teacher assisted in ABC class just for opportunity to learn more about using the ABC program.

 

By the way, this co-op's fees were as high as quality private school if student enrolled in 5 high school classes per term.

 

In the ABC class, there were fourteen students, two of which turned in their assignments complete, signed by parent, and on time. One of those two was the this teacher assistant's own child. At beginning of term, a contract was handed out to be signed by both parent and student. The contract spelled out that parental involvement in at-home work was essential for the ABC class. The parent was to read over the assignment and do the first check for errors. The extremely precise grading formula was also signed by both student and parent. That did not stop parents from whining that their child deserved higher grade or extra time for assignment.

 

The co-op was at that time considered a tutoring service, not a substitute for an all day traditional school setting even though classes were offered from 9 a.m. until 2 p.m. However, too many of the parents felt that they were no longer the ultimate responsible party for ensuring their child performed at an acceptable level.

 

Yes, teacher expected more of fellow homeschooling parents than what she experienced.

Edited by annandatje
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I've never done a co-op, but my kids have almost always been exposed to other teachers. Cub Scouts, Daisies, Brownies, Boy Scouts, music lessons, church, swimming lessons, sport coaches, etc. It is almost impossible for a kid not to have this kind of exposure.

 

We are also involved in a parent-partnership with the school district. My kids love it, and get a lot from it. My kids have taken classes and played sports at public and private school. I even have one in private high school. I can live without co-ops. :)

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My husband has taught college, private high school and private middle school. I can tell you he sees the same things with those kids as you have described and attributed to homeschooled kids. The hovering, over protective parents have been there too (yes, even at the college level). Personally, I don't think the outcomes would necessarily be any different in a different environment (ie, the hovering mother will hover over her child regardless of where he is getting his education, the oublic schooled child who previously was very engaged and turns quiet in middle school would do the same as a homeschooler, etc.).

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My husband has taught college, private high school and private middle school. I can tell you he sees the same things with those kids as you have described and attributed to homeschooled kids. The hovering, over protective parents have been there too (yes, even at the college level). Personally, I don't think the outcomes would necessarily be any different in a different environment (ie, the hovering mother will hover over her child regardless of where he is getting his education, the oublic schooled child who previously was very engaged and turns quiet in middle school would do the same as a homeschooler, etc.).

 

Interesting point. The issues that lead to the choice to homeschool for these parents would still be present if the child is in an outside the home setting.

 

Thanks for the anecdotal confirmation. I really do not want it to be true when I was hearing it.

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Thanks for the anecdotal confirmation. I really do not want it to be true when I was hearing it.

 

Two of my sisters homeschooled. One of them was able to get into a private high school and finished that way. She's currently an army lieutenant and an emergency nurse. The other sister finished high school homeschooling and ended up graduating with a judicial doctorate from a top-tier law school. You would not know that they homeschooled unless you specifically asked them. So, I think a lot of opinions on this subject are dependent upon what's going on around you. Also, my kids are all on or above grade level (and they're fairly normal) but they probably won't return to ps, so no one would really know (that homeschooling is working for them).

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I completely agree with you.

 

I am sending my 10th grader to the community college next year because he really needs to get away from his mother. He needs to learn how to fend for himself and organize himself and deal with failure if that's what it comes to.

 

Also, it's hard work homeschooling a high schooler. Truly. I think that the idea that high schoolers will teach themselves and the parent-teacher doesn't need to be involved very much is a myth propagated by wishful thinking. Sure, some high schoolers do ok with this approach. But there's more to an education than just learning from a book and writing papers. Education is also a social act. An act that I can't completely conjure in my basement no matter what wonderful materials I select. Discussions with mom all the time don't cut it. It is important to learn from people who are passionate about their subjects.

 

The other myth propagated by homeschoolers is that the parent doesn't need to know anything. Just learn along with your children! No problem! Sure, that works in first grade, but as you move up, things get more difficult and it becomes more necessary to be not just one step ahead but *years* ahead. Yes--it is important to *really understand* algebra when teaching fractions. You need to know where you're going.

 

Just as it is not trivial to teach a class of schoolchildren, it is not trivial to be a homeschooling parent. You can't just wing it.

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My daughter is currently starting her sophomore year in a private high school. It's quite academic, but not insane. Maybe an 8 or 9 on the academic scale, where insane (10) is the school that has the kids finishing high school math and literature by the end of 8th grade and then going on to win the Intel Science Contest (pretty much annually) and holding literature discussions in Japanese.

 

Anyway, I saw her Freshman English Honors teacher Friday and told her that DD loved her class. She said the DD was clearly a very mature thinker coming into the class, and an extremely capable writer but that she thought that DD benefitted from the class discussion and interplay.

 

Very few people at the school even know that DD homeschooled, and she has fitted right in academically and socially.

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Two of my sisters homeschooled. One of them was able to get into a private high school and finished that way. She's currently an army lieutenant and an emergency nurse. The other sister finished high school homeschooling and ended up graduating with a judicial doctorate from a top-tier law school. You would not know that they homeschooled unless you specifically asked them. So, I think a lot of opinions on this subject are dependent upon what's going on around you. Also, my kids are all on or above grade level (and they're fairly normal) but they probably won't return to ps, so no one would really know (that homeschooling is working for them).

 

My own children don't fit what I am presenting. However, I can tell you that I would not have been able to adequately teach math or science past 7th grade. My children have been at or above grade level in their private school and in their public schools. Socially, they have thrived.

 

I didn't post against homeschooling; but against a blind spot in the homeschooling population.

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I haven't read all the posts, but can I offer another POV?

 

I have taught in both public and private schools for 12 years. My students have been quite the variety in all ways, good and bad. I believe they could have all benefited from some instructional time with their parents. Most traditionally schooled families do not get nearly enough up close and personal, quality bonding time. Parents do. not. know. their. kids.

 

I wish with every ounce of my being that I could homeschool my kids, instead of half @!& after schooling, but that will never be.

 

It all comes down to parenting, I believe, in the long run, not method of schooling. But, it may be easier to parent, especially during the early years, when you spend more time with them. That's hard to do when you drop the kids off at daycare at 6:45 and pick them up at 5:30.

 

I wish wish with every ounce of my being

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