Like a blog post, but I don't blog. Musings from a former homeschooler who teaches

[Nan in Mass]

:) It was very successful. GRIN My mother did a great job with Juliet when we read Shakespeare in parts.

[snowbeltmom]

First, your kids (in your siggy) are not that old. I would consider your oldest (15) at the early point of beginning the branching out I'm talking about. The young lady I was speaking of is 19. IMO, she should already have had the experience of a physical college.

 

Secondly, it's not just meaningful discussions. It's the entire mildly stressful experience of being out of the safe cocoon of home. It's going into the building and sitting for an exam; it's looking at the map and understanding where L-281 is; it's using people and resources toward your end goal. Literal knowledge and a paper degree is not the only point (to me) of college. Tremendous value is gained by teens who have ample opportunity to use their own wits and skills, exercise their own interpersonal abilities, navigate in a structured system without mom paving the way at every turn, without sitting comfortably on the couch in the family room.

 

That's what I'm talking about.

I think many of the examples you are using are life skills that need to be mastered regardless of whether one obtains knowledge on-line or in a classroom.

 

It sounds like this teen in the example would have had issues regardless of where she acquired her education.

 

If I were new to homeschooling, I would have found this thread very discouraging. While obviously, not every homeschooling story is a successful one, the exact same can be said for every other type of educational setting.

 

Homeschooling is providing my children with many more of the types of opportunities you mentioned than they would have been able to have had they been in a brick and mortar school all day long.

[Nan in Mass]

Mine have learned to find their way, alone, around the subway system of foreign cities where they spoke only a tiny bit of the language. If they were in the public high school, they would not have had the opportunity to travel during the school year. Despite having done this, they have found starting community college (something mine did at 16) a challenge. My youngest, for example, didn't know that first floor rooms are one hundred something, second floor rooms two hundred something, etc. It was no big deal - he has no hesitation asking a stranger for directions after banging around Tokyo's subways, but without that experience, he would have found it daunting. And when there are many of those little things, all at once, while you are also trying to learn how use your graphing calculator and how electron valences work, it can be overwhelming if you have never had to do anything hard on your own before. I think the point of this thread is not that homeschooling high school is a bad idea, but rather that *if* you are going to homeschool high school, you need to find opportunities for your student to do hard things on his own, to learn persistence, and how to work with other people, and resourcefulness.

 

Nan

[chepyl]

Sadly, I think it's not likely to happen in high school. I was in every honors and AP class my high school offered at the time. Even with that, the intellectual discourse between peers was minimal. Indeed, it wasn't much better with the teachers.

 

The situation was greatly improved in college. The students were more mature and, for the most part, wanted to be there.

 

We had some great discussions in my high school English/Lit and history classes. We did not have AP only honors. The school refused to model theor classes to fit someone else's curricula. I am glad they did it this way. I really learned. I was not prepping for a test. I feel there was a lot I missed, but I did have a few bad teachers and the highly rigorous classes did not start until 11th grade. Bit we had some great classes with enthusiastic teachers.

 

 

I really dislike blanket statements like this. Sure, maybe there are homeschoolers that aren't doing a great job, but I know many moms that are working hard on academics with their kids every day and doing everything they can to make sure their kids are well balanced. When someone gets on here and says something like this, it just makes me feel like I'm part of some loser group. Is it possible that the kids you are seeing in a school setting are the ones that had parents that failed at homeschooling?

 

There may be some parents that do a poor job homeschooling their kids, but I've seen the results of the public schools and don't believe there are any fewer casualties there.

 

For the record, I don't like coops because in my experience they are a waste of my time and I can't afford to pay $400 a class for elementary and middle school courses that I can easily teach at home. Plus, I am HOMEschooling. If I wanted to pay someone to teach my child all their classes, I would get a job and send them to private school.

 

Lisa

 

My two kids do three classes each at co-op and it cost me $30 including insurance and facility fees. I teach a Shakespeare class, mainly for reading aloud and discussing what it OS happening, it coat $25. That coverage books. Co-op can be inexpensive.

[Joanne]

I've been busy, and haven't been able to come back to this thread.

 

I have to say that I find some of the tone around "but this is discouraging" to be........a concern. Are we supposed to only talk about homeschooling in positives? As you can see by the history mentioned in this thread, I was a homeschooler who defended it wholeheartedly as if there weren't any problems, we always tested better, it was always adequate and superior. I would give a "sure, a few homeschoolers don't do a good job, but most do and all the ones I know do".

 

But my real life experience has confirmed what I heard HOMESCHOOLERS saying 10 years ago, and 5 years ago. My experience and what I have heard from other teachers.

 

I am not the only one with this view. I am the OP, and so people are responding to me, and quoting me. But there are a half dozen or more seasoned homeschoolers and teachers who have said or affirmed the same thing.

 

I think it's valid and important to consider the ways in which homeschooling might have played out to be weak, or in need of additional focus and care. Nowhere do I *discourage* homeschooling.

[laundrycrisis]

I think the point of this thread is not that homeschooling high school is a bad idea, but rather that *if* you are going to homeschool high school, you need to find opportunities for your student to do hard things on his own, to learn persistence, and how to work with other people, and resourcefulness.

 

Nan

 

:iagree: This is an excellent thought. I do not want to homeschool the highschool years to make it easier or protect them from challenges.

 

I think it's valid and important to consider the ways in which homeschooling might have played out to be weak, or in need of additional focus and care. Nowhere do I *discourage* homeschooling.

 

Highschool is several years away for our oldest....and I really appreciate being able to read these types of thoughts. I appreciate you sharing them. This is what I want to learn about from those who have gone before. I want to hear about the downside and the pitfalls from someone who supports homeschooling, but has seen these problems with her own eyes and wants to help others avoid them. I do not take that as discouragement. I see these thoughts as road signs warning of potential hazards up ahead. Thank you for the heads-up.

Edited September 20, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[Jennifer3141]

:iagree: This is an excellent thought. I do not want to homeschool the highschool years to make it easier or protect them from challenges.

 

 

Good point! :001_smile:

[JumpyTheFrog]

I was a staunch, idealogical homeschooler. Earlier in my homeschooling career, I was even anti-age segregation at church, anti-nursery, anti-preschool. I was against institutional learning, even in private school settings....

 

I could have homeschooled "only mine" from k - 12, I would have still made that choice; it would be my preference

 

....

 

My personal truth is that my older homeschooled students (my bio kids and bonus students) benefited from others teaching them subjects I had less skill in.

 

I think several posters completely missed the OP's point. She started out as a "homeschooling is the best way for everyone, all the time" type and over the years, has come to realize that sometimes it is better to outsource some, or all, subjects. She never stated that nobody is qualified for teaching high school math or science...just that she realized that her kids did better when she outsourced the subjects she was weaker in. She would still homeschool her kids, if she could, so it is not accurate to portay her as disapproving of homeschooling.

 

In addition, she never stated that you have to send your kids to school for them to learn the life skills mentioned. I think her point was that some kids are kept home too much. If your older kids are out in the community, without you always hovering every single minute, then I don't think she meant you.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I've been busy, and haven't been able to come back to this thread.

 

I have to say that I find some of the tone around "but this is discouraging" to be........a concern. Are we supposed to only talk about homeschooling in positives?

 

No, apparently in this thread we are only supposed to talk about homeschooling in negatives.

 

I *don't* want the other view. You are welcome to post it, of course, but that is not why I posted this particular thread.

 

You said yourself that you went through a progression in your thinking about homeschooling.

 

1. Staunch homeschooler, unwilling and unable to see that homeschoolers might have failed on any measurable scale.

 

2. Ok, some homeschoolers might have missed the mark. But many of those simply choose another teaching style, or educational paradigm.

 

3. Ok, some homeschoolers do not teach upper levels well.

 

4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

5. To be determined.

 

Knowing full well that there are many people on these boards who are still in steps 1 and 2, did you really think your personal revelations might not make some people nervous or discouraged? When you were in step 1 or 2, you claim that you just shrugged it off yourself. Were you expecting that your personal experience, wholly convincing as it may be for you, would be so enlightening to everyone that they would immediately skip discouragement and leap right to acceptance and adjustment of attitudes? Things don't work that way. You have pointed out your long history on this board. I would think that history would make you less likely to be shocked that *gasp* everyone does not agree with you here and is not ready to jump on the bandwagon.

 

For what it's worth, your points are worth making. I'm sorry, but I find your tone condescending.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Alte Veste Academy

[Ginevra]

Mine have learned to find their way, alone, around the subway system of foreign cities where they spoke only a tiny bit of the language. If they were in the public high school, they would not have had the opportunity to travel during the school year. Despite having done this, they have found starting community college (something mine did at 16) a challenge. My youngest, for example, didn't know that first floor rooms are one hundred something, second floor rooms two hundred something, etc. It was no big deal - he has no hesitation asking a stranger for directions after banging around Tokyo's subways, but without that experience, he would have found it daunting. And when there are many of those little things, all at once, while you are also trying to learn how use your graphing calculator and how electron valences work, it can be overwhelming if you have never had to do anything hard on your own before. I think the point of this thread is not that homeschooling high school is a bad idea, but rather that *if* you are going to homeschool high school, you need to find opportunities for your student to do hard things on his own, to learn persistence, and how to work with other people, and resourcefulness.

 

Nan

 

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. And kudos on your kids for navigating a foreign metro! I'm pretty petrified just of navigating D.C's metro. :001_smile:

[Ginevra]

I've been busy, and haven't been able to come back to this thread.

 

I have to say that I find some of the tone around "but this is discouraging" to be........a concern. Are we supposed to only talk about homeschooling in positives? As you can see by the history mentioned in this thread, I was a homeschooler who defended it wholeheartedly as if there weren't any problems, we always tested better, it was always adequate and superior. I would give a "sure, a few homeschoolers don't do a good job, but most do and all the ones I know do".

 

But my real life experience has confirmed what I heard HOMESCHOOLERS saying 10 years ago, and 5 years ago. My experience and what I have heard from other teachers.

 

I am not the only one with this view. I am the OP, and so people are responding to me, and quoting me. But there are a half dozen or more seasoned homeschoolers and teachers who have said or affirmed the same thing.

 

I think it's valid and important to consider the ways in which homeschooling might have played out to be weak, or in need of additional focus and care. Nowhere do I *discourage* homeschooling.

 

I am one who wishes I had heard things like this earlier in my hs career. :001_smile: I heard all the rosy myths about learning-as-you-go and the idea that homeschooling always produces superior children who are academically far advanced and have all the markers of "success" that we generally hope they will. I did think these things were true until my oldest was maybe in 7th grade and I started researching homeschooling HS. It then became clear to me that the parents with teens I admired were working their butts off and spending big dollars to get classes and tutors. They were not just picking up an Algebra II book on Monday and throwing together a lesson that afternoon. ;) One teen I most admired had over half of her high school credits through non-mom resources! It was a huge revelation to me!

 

Personally, I don't think it's discouraging to know there's a possible pitfall ahead!

[Home'scool]

Homeschooled kids tend to, at higher levels, have poor, mediocre or undeveloped skills on what is necessary for classroom learning.

 

Based on my own experiences, I have to agree with this statement.

 

I homeschooled two children until grades 8 and 10. I made sure they were as independent as I could make them. I gave them schedules and homework. My oldest did PSAT's and SAT's and AP classes. They both participated in co-ops. I made these choices because they were the right ones for us at the time, but I always thought in the back of my mind "phew, at least if they do go back into public school they will be used to all this stuff!"

 

I was very wrong.

 

Nothing I did at home could compare with actually having to do it at a school, in a classroom, every day. There is something about having to know your schedule, coordinate going to your locker and then finding your classroom, dealing with pop quizzes and different teacher styles and missing what the assignment was because the teacher said it while the bell was ringing and the cafeteria not having the food you want so you are still hungry and having your calculator battery die in the middle of a final (that last one happened to my oldest. The teacher just looked at her and said "Oh well. The class has 55 minutes left. You better find a calculator huh?" She had to run around the school and into study hall and find someone with a graphing calculator to lend to her. Nasty teacher, I know. But it happens. It's called life.)

 

The first few months for both of them was a huge adjustment.

 

Looking back now, 2 years into public school, I realized that one of my reasons for homeschooling was the fact that they do not have to deal with all this external bull that comes with dealing with an institution and they can just focus on learning. I think in the elementary and middle school years those distractions can be a hinderance to their learning process. So homeschooling gives them an advantage.

 

But then there gets to be this tipping point, where NOT learning in that environment can start to put them behind in a broader way.

 

I can't even imagine them dealing with that learning curve while adjusting to college at the same time. My oldest is now a senior and is looking at colleges. And I think she would be been at a disadvantage starting college without having gone to high school.

 

Again, this is my experience. Others may tell you their teenagers did just fine being homeschooled all the way through. But looking back, I do not know what I could have done differently that would have prepared them for the real world as much as putting them into high school did.

[Elizabeth in WA]

I don't think that Joanne's post here are so much negative as honest and something we should all think about. My experiences with other homeschoolers are pretty similar, and what appalls me most is the lack of awareness of what happens in good schools, particularly at the high school level, and that good schools do exist in this country even if they don't locally to the homeschooler in question. (If I were to send my kids back to school now, I'd move ~15 miles into a better district and that is the one I compare to locally to ground myself. I also look carefully at my and my dad's private schools curricula.)

 

I do disagree with Joanna about co-ops in general, if only because my only experiences in looking into them suggest a total waste of academic time especially at the high school level.

 

On the other hand, a major goal for me this year is to prepare my soon to be sixteen year old to attend dual enrollment classes at the community college next year, and I think this is important for my particular children even if the courses end up less rigorous than I could have done at home. This child is an Aspie, so I am giving the transition even more concentrated effort and attention than I will for his neurotypical siblings; but, at some point, I expect to guide and teach them all specific skills for classroom success complete with "classroom lab" in which I remain heavily involved in helping them manage a few outside classes (ideally without annoying the instructor with obvious helicopter parenting - the goal here is independence, not mom-management at the college level) successfully before trusting them on their own to manage their coursework and studies.

 

Overall, I think there is too much assumption of superiority in the homeschool community and too little discussion of how much work homeschooling high school, in particular, can be to do well.

[Colleen in NS]

Okay then, I guess we have co-oped. :D

 

I used a lot of exclamation points, didn't I. :blush::D

 

Colleen - I found you needed at least three people.

 

That's what I'm thinking, too. More than two but less than....9? 7? I guess it would depend on what kind of experience I'd be hoping to see happen.

[Ria]

 

But then there gets to be this tipping point' date=' where NOT learning in that environment can start to put them behind in a broader way.

 

I can't even imagine them dealing with that learning curve while adjusting to college at the same time. My oldest is now a senior and is looking at colleges. And I think she would be been at a disadvantage starting college without having gone to high school.[/quote']

 

Not only do you think this, but colleges are jumping onto the bandwagon, too. The private college my 19-yr old attends does not make it easy for homeschooled students to apply. The school is very upfront about the disasters they've seen with homeschooled students. The admissions counselor told me that the problem became so severe that most homeschooled students failed out within a year or two, and the problems were both academic and social (dorms, etc).

 

For that reason they require a lot more from the homeschoolers who want to apply...almost "proof" that these kids can function socially and in an outside academic setting.

 

That's disturbing. The college isn't being negative. The college is reacting to the quality of homeschooled students they've enrolled. And did I mention this is a private college?

[justamouse]

Personally, I don't think it's discouraging to know there's a possible pitfall ahead!

 

I know, right? :confused:

[Home'scool]

As an addition to this (spin off?) I think, too, that sometimes we homeschoolers can miss the bigger picture.

 

My girlfriend and I were discussing college plans for our oldest kids. Her daughter is still homeschooled. She has a whole plan set out for her daughter to go to community college for two years, then transfer into a "name" college to finish out her degree. She has the whole thing planned out to maximize money, time, strength of degree, etc. etc. I don't blame her; as a homeschooler that is what we do ... plan their classes and education, right?

 

But, I mentioned that I thought of the college years as a time for our kids to develop their own community. That by my sophomore year in college I would have NOT wanted to leave the friends I had made or the life I was building for myself. That to try and enter another college as a junior, when everyone that age has basically moved out of the dorms and into apartments, makes it very hard to become part of the community.

 

There comes a point where it isn't all about the best way to be educated, but about the way to start balancing all that life brings as you get older. Some things have to give as other experiences come on the horizon.

[justamouse]

Not only do you think this, but colleges are jumping onto the bandwagon, too. The private college my 19-yr old attends does not make it easy for homeschooled students to apply. The school is very upfront about the disasters they've seen with homeschooled students. The admissions counselor told me that the problem became so severe that most homeschooled students failed out within a year or two, and the problems were both academic and social (dorms, etc).

 

For that reason they require a lot more from the homeschoolers who want to apply...almost "proof" that these kids can function socially and in an outside academic setting.

 

That's disturbing. The college isn't being negative. The college is reacting to the quality of homeschooled students they've enrolled. And did I mention this is a private college?

 

I'm not saying I disagree with that, but the other hand is that the students are not picking a college that 'fits' them.

 

I know my dd16 will not tolerate a huge university. The thought of a dorm room makes her break out in a rash-she's just not that into crowds. She is thinking more along the lines of a small school, and, if possible, renting an apartment (perhaps with other students).

 

But again, even this can be a conclusion of that bubble wrapped student who is punted out into the world.

[Ria]

I'm not saying I disagree with that, but the other hand is that the students are not picking a college that 'fits' them.

 

I know my dd16 will not tolerate a huge university. The thought of a dorm room makes her break out in a rash-she's just not that into crowds. She is thinking more along the lines of a small school, and, if possible, renting an apartment (perhaps with other students).

 

But again, even this can be a conclusion of that bubble wrapped student who is punted out into the world.

 

This is a fairly small private school; approx 4500 students, I believe. We heard this same concern from other colleges as well.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So now we've gone from needing to love :001_wub: Mommy-taught co-ops to needing to go to public school or else the kids will have a helluva time going to college because homeschoolers are such notorious losers.

 

:001_huh:

 

This is nuts.

 

Of course there are homeschoolers who are total losers. Every demographic has its total losers. But I'm not going to send my son to Stupid School down the street where only 19% of boys even graduate (without honors) just because of these horror stories. I'm pretty sure that the skills and knowledge he uses to navigate a Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue Mission might get him through his first day of college, but I could be wrong. He could go in there like a bumbling doofus and come home crying from the total stress of having to find his classes all by his little self.

 

I'll be sure to update.

 

People, read TWTM and follow it. If you aren't a loser, your homeschooled kid won't be a loser. Take a few days off of these "support" forums if all this negativity is making you fear your homeschooled child will spend his 21st birthday sipping Ripple in an alley instead of making something of himself.

 

I know I'll be taking a few days off. I think my time would be better spent listening to my son's Greek and Latin recitations than listening to these litanies of woe from people who claim to believe in homeschooling.

[Halftime Hope]

Not only do you think this, but colleges are jumping onto the bandwagon, too. The private college my 19-yr old attends does not make it easy for homeschooled students to apply. The school is very upfront about the disasters they've seen with homeschooled students. The admissions counselor told me that the problem became so severe that most homeschooled students failed out within a year or two, and the problems were both academic and social (dorms, etc).

 

For that reason they require a lot more from the homeschoolers who want to apply...almost "proof" that these kids can function socially and in an outside academic setting.

 

That's disturbing. The college isn't being negative. The college is reacting to the quality of homeschooled students they've enrolled. And did I mention this is a private college?

 

OMgoodness, Ria! Where (what region of the country) are you? I don't doubt at all the truthfulness of what you are reporting, but that just is not what I'm seeing here. Is there any chance it is a regional thing? I just can't fathom.

 

Maybe here the kids do other things instead of feeling that college is their only option. ?? Trying to wrap my mind around it.

[Ria]

So now we've gone from needing to love :001_wub: Mommy-taught co-ops to needing to go to public school or else the kids will have a helluva time going to college because homeschoolers are such notorious losers.

 

:001_huh:

 

This is nuts.

 

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The suggestions put forth in this thread - outside classes, online classes, community college, discussions with experts, not sheltering through high school, etc - are very helpful to read, imo.

 

Have you read some of the threads on the general board this past week?

 

1. Poster has no clue what to do - her 5th grader has sat in her room all week, no school done, no chores done, mom is clueless.

 

2. Numerous threads about what was spoken to children at co-op. Multiple posters in all threads responding with, "Well, I'd pull my kids out immediately. NO ONE speaks to my kids like that."

 

3. Poster is 7 weeks into school and says she's basically thrown out all curriculum...seems like this is a trend....gee, what should she do?

 

Are these inspirational threads? Gad.

[Home'scool]

This is nuts.

 

Of course there are homeschoolers who are total losers. Every demographic has its total losers. But I'm not going to send my son to Stupid School down the street where only 19% of boys even graduate (without honors) just because of these horror stories. I'm pretty sure that the skills and knowledge he uses to navigate a Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue Mission might get him through his first day of college, but I could be wrong. He could go in there like a bumbling doofus and come home crying from the total stress of having to find his classes all by his little self.

 

I'll be sure to update.

 

People, read TWTM and follow it. If you aren't a loser, your homeschooled kid won't be a loser. Take a few days off of these "support" forums if all this negativity is making you fear your homeschooled child will spend his 21st birthday sipping Ripple in an alley instead of making something of himself.

 

I know I'll be taking a few days off. I think my time would be better spent listening to my son's Greek and Latin recitations than listening to these litanies of woe from people who claim to believe in homeschooling.

 

Wow. To be blunt, I don't appreciate taking the time to write out my experience to add to a discussion about homeschooling, knowing I have 10 years of homeschooling experience and 3 years of public school experience so MAYBE I have a point to share that MIGHT resonate with someone but in NO WAY did I say it would/should/could apply to everyone, only to have you belittle it by posting hyperbole and disdain.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The suggestions put forth in this thread - outside classes, online classes, community college, discussions with experts, not sheltering through high school, etc - are very helpful to read, imo.

 

Have you read some of the threads on the general board this past week?

 

1. Poster has no clue what to do - her 5th grader has sat in her room all week, no school done, no chores done, mom is clueless.

 

2. Numerous threads about what was spoken to children at co-op. Multiple posters in all threads responding with, "Well, I'd pull my kids out immediately. NO ONE speaks to my kids like that."

 

3. Poster is 7 weeks into school and says she's basically thrown out all curriculum...seems like this is a trend....gee, what should she do?

 

Are these inspirational threads? Gad.

 

I know, Ria, and my frustration isn't really at you or Joanne, either. I'm sorry for my temper.

 

I do admit that I am seeing some trainwrecks on this forum and IRL. We should expect this, because the homeschool Mommy teachers are younger. They are a new generation and they had even worse educational opportunities in ps than we did.

 

I get that, and I don't know what to do about it. I do find myself typing and then deleting, "Is private school an option?" more this fall than I ever have before.

 

So, in a totally immature and me-centered fashion, I guess I would like to know how to light the fire under the chairs of the new generation while still encouraging me and telling me what a good job I'm doing?

 

Is that too much to ask? LOL

[justamouse]

I think the point of this thread is not that homeschooling high school is a bad idea, but rather that *if* you are going to homeschool high school, you need to find opportunities for your student to do hard things on his own, to learn persistence, and how to work with other people, and resourcefulness.

 

Nan

 

So very, very true.

 

But to some parents, doing things purposely where their children will ahve to struggle is akin to dumping them in the deep end and saying, "Swim!"

 

It's not, really, but they see it as such.

 

It starts earlier than HS, though. It's funny, I'm reading Charlotte Mason's HOME EDUCATION again, and I'm in the beginning chapters, where she advises a mother to take the children out every day that she can, and quietly amuse herself while she tells them to go run, go explore, go investigate this thing, and tell me about it later-go over fields and explore the old barn. And how Charlotte advocates them doing these things BY THEMSELVES. No guided tours. Mom needs to stop handing everything to them on a platter.

 

How they should learn to climb and how mother shouldn't yell to them that they'll fall and break their necks.

[Ria]

OMgoodness, Ria! Where (what region of the country) are you? I don't doubt at all the truthfulness of what you are reporting, but that just is not what I'm seeing here. Is there any chance it is a regional thing? I just can't fathom.

 

Maybe here the kids do other things instead of feeling that college is their only option. ?? Trying to wrap my mind around it.

 

Mid-Atlantic. We had these discussions four years ago when our twins were looking at schools; the twins initially were viewed as homeschoolers although the reality was they got diplomas from a cyber charter school (we homeschooled, then put them in the cyber because the cyber paid for 2 years of cc classes). We had discussions with a variety of schools. All the schools we looked at were private.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Wow. To be blunt' date=' I don't appreciate taking the time to write out my experience to add to a discussion about homeschooling, knowing I have 10 years of homeschooling experience and 3 years of public school experience so MAYBE I have a point to share that MIGHT resonate with someone but in NO WAY did I say it would/should/could apply to everyone, only to have you belittle it by posting hyperbole and disdain.[/quote']

 

I didn't see your post. I was busy typing rude comments while you posted. :blushing:

[Home'scool]

S'okay. I am the queen of spouting off, so no worries :001_smile:

[Ria]

 

So, in a totally immature and me-centered fashion, I guess I would like to know how to light the fire under the chairs of the new generation while still encouraging me and telling me what a good job I'm doing?

 

Is that too much to ask? LOL

 

Ah, sweet friend, a question for the ages! :) I'll ponder the fire-lighting. I would think a good read of TWTM would fix things, but so few people seem to take it to heart.

 

You know, when I started homeschooling there was no pre-packaged curricula. No homeschool math programs. The best I could get was BJU or A Beka textbooks (and even that was huge, as they had balked on selling to individuals rather than schools), Miquon math (always a rebel!), and Pathway readers. We put stuff together to come up with curricula ourselves. We used books (can you imagine?) and did our own lesson plans.

 

Homeschooling has never been easier. There is so much to choose from, the planning is done, the scripting is even done in some programs. How on earth can people screw it up? I am baffled. :(

 

:grouphug:

[mommymilkies]

This is a fairly small private school; approx 4500 students, I believe. We heard this same concern from other colleges as well.

 

This has not been my dh's experience at the colleges he has taught at. In fact, even among some of my friends with college age students. Maybe it's a regional thing? Of course we're in IL where there are no requirements from homeschoolers, so I doubt it's accountability.

 

Maybe it's a larger number of people claiming to be homeschoolers who just pulled their kids out because they were truant/had behavioral issues and didn't want to deal with the schools? I have heard of many school districts pressuring parents to do that because they lower their scores and it affects their budget.

Edited September 20, 2011 by mommymilkies

[Plucky]

 

The first few months for both of them was a huge adjustment.

 

 

This hasn't been my experience at all. My firstborn started Community College at 16, and has a 4.0. My second born just started a rigorous private school. She's having no problems whatsoever, and has gotten all As so far.

[justamouse]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The suggestions put forth in this thread - outside classes, online classes, community college, discussions with experts, not sheltering through high school, etc - are very helpful to read, imo.

 

Have you read some of the threads on the general board this past week?

 

1. Poster has no clue what to do - her 5th grader has sat in her room all week, no school done, no chores done, mom is clueless.

 

2. Numerous threads about what was spoken to children at co-op. Multiple posters in all threads responding with, "Well, I'd pull my kids out immediately. NO ONE speaks to my kids like that."

 

3. Poster is 7 weeks into school and says she's basically thrown out all curriculum...seems like this is a trend....gee, what should she do?

 

Are these inspirational threads? Gad.

 

I know, right? It's sad that I skip those threads now, but I just don't have the energy.

 

 

I do admit that I am seeing some trainwrecks on this forum and IRL. We should expect this, because the homeschool Mommy teachers are younger. They are a new generation and they had even worse educational opportunities in ps than we did.

 

I get that, and I don't know what to do about it. I do find myself typing and then deleting, "Is private school an option?" more this fall than I ever have before.

 

So, in a totally immature and me-centered fashion, I guess I would like to know how to light the fire under the chairs of the new generation while still encouraging me and telling me what a good job I'm doing?

 

Is that too much to ask? LOL

 

Well, the first thing they need to do is actually read the book. :glare:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ah, sweet friend, a question for the ages! :) I'll ponder the fire-lighting. I would think a good read of TWTM would fix things, but so few people seem to take it to heart.

 

You know, when I started homeschooling there was no pre-packaged curricula. No homeschool math programs. The best I could get was BJU or A Beka textbooks (and even that was huge, as they had balked on selling to individuals rather than schools), Miquon math (always a rebel!), and Pathway readers. We put stuff together to come up with curricula ourselves. We used books (can you imagine?) and did our own lesson plans.

 

Homeschooling has never been easier. There is so much to choose from, the planning is done, the scripting is even done in some programs. How on earth can people screw it up? I am baffled. :(

 

:grouphug:

 

I really think it is a generational thing. American schools used to be better, so we were better prepared to teach our own. Sad, huh? The current crop of children is more in need of alternative educational options than ever, but their own parents were less educated than any of us knew.

 

Here's an example: I used to go at it hammer-and-tongs with Spy Car over 'conceptual' math. Then one magical day I had a brain wave: It was true! There really were homeschoolers who were teaching their children to memorize 2x2=4 without telling them what it meant, and they didn't know how to explain it! I will never, ever get over that realization. That's when I personally knew how bad things had gotten in some public schools.

 

How many of our homeschool teachers (and schoolteachers) themselves learned to read with sight words instead of phonics? How many were taught with programs like Everyday Math? Even if they can use the scripted programs, they'll only be able to read them to their child. That is not effective teaching.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It sounds like I'm switching sides in the argument. :glare:

 

I think I am warming up to the idea of conceding that newbies need to hear all this stuff but still holding on to the notion that those of us old enough to be currently hs'ing teens probably slid in under the wire and are probably doing a pretty good job.

 

Would anybody else buy that?

[Ria]

Here's an example: I used to go at it hammer-and-tongs with Spy Car over 'conceptual' math. Then one magical day I had a brain wave: It was true! There really were homeschoolers who were teaching their children to memorize 2x2=4 without telling them what it meant, and they didn't know how to explain it! I will never, ever get over that realization. That's when I personally knew how bad things had gotten in some public schools.

 

Oh, dear God. You are serious, aren't you? I had no idea. That is totally frightening. :(

[mommymilkies]

I really think it is a generational thing. American schools used to be better, so we were better prepared to teach our own. Sad, huh? The current crop of children is more in need of alternative educational options than ever, but their own parents were less educated than any of us knew.

 

Here's an example: I used to go at it hammer-and-tongs with Spy Car over 'conceptual' math. Then one magical day I had a brain wave: It was true! There really were homeschoolers who were teaching their children to memorize 2x2=4 without telling them what it meant, and they didn't know how to explain it! I will never, ever get over that realization. That's when I personally knew how bad things had gotten in some public schools.

 

How many of our homeschool teachers (and schoolteachers) themselves learned to read with sight words instead of phonics? How many were taught with programs like Everyday Math? Even if they can use the scripted programs, they'll only be able to read them to their child. That is not effective teaching.

But this is the same generation teaching in public schools, for the most part. So how is that different than them homeschooling? I am still in my (late) 20's. I had a TERRIBLE education. But I am intelligent, above average IQ, and I have a college education that was great. My mother is from a much earlier generation and she still can't do elementary math-even with a college degree. My stepfather is a University Psych professor with a PhD. Much earlier generation, as well. Yet he's dyslexic and can barely read. But he's taught thousands and thousands of students at college level and nobody is throwing him under the bus. So let's not knock people because of their "generation". IMHO, it's more to do with the upbringing, intelligence, and personality, than the age.

 

I do want to note that I do not think everyone should homeschool. I know a few people who have toyed with the idea of homeschooling and it really honestly frightens me to think of them in charge of someone's education. I think if you come into homeschooling because you are forced or because you think it will be all sunshine and roses because now your kid doesn't have to wake up early or do gads of homework, then you are in for a surprise. It's a lot of work. Maybe the homeschoolers people see that are failing at public school/college are because they are part of that population. But nobody is talking about all of the many homeschoolers who succeed. It's easy to point to the huge number of illiterate children who graduate from our public schools. It's easy to show the atrocious test scores of them, as well. Not to mention school shootings, etc. If we just focus on the negatives of any one institution, it's easy to overlook all of the successes.

Edited September 20, 2011 by mommymilkies

[Ria]

It sounds like I'm switching sides in the argument. :glare:

 

I think I am warming up to the idea of conceding that newbies need to hear all this stuff but still holding on to the notion that those of us old enough to be currently hs'ing teens probably slid in under the wire and are probably doing a pretty good job.

 

Would anybody else buy that?

 

I would. :001_smile:

 

Now I am going upstairs to lift weights for a while, then run 2 miles, all while pondering how to encourage and light a fire under younger homeschooling moms.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh, dear God. You are serious, aren't you? I had no idea. That is totally frightening. :(

 

If I get a minute later I'll dig up the thread. Be prepared to require a stiff drink.

[Aelwydd]

I really think it is a generational thing. American schools used to be better, so we were better prepared to teach our own. Sad, huh? The current crop of children is more in need of alternative educational options than ever, but their own parents were less educated than any of us knew.

 

How many of our homeschool teachers (and schoolteachers) themselves learned to read with sight words instead of phonics? How many were taught with programs like Everyday Math? Even if they can use the scripted programs, they'll only be able to read them to their child. That is not effective teaching.

 

This is true! Exactly what I was trying to relay in my earlier post. Yes, you are going to see an overall downward trend in home schooling (and public, and private), when the larger culture itself, suffers from a dearth of critical thinking skills. When I say critical thinking skills, I mean the "how" and "why" of concepts behind all subjects.

 

But also, and this is just my opinion, I see what appears to be a strengthening rejection of the very ideals of Enlightenment that bequeathed to us the technology and understanding of our world that we have today. More and more, I see a hardening attitude towards science and objectivism, in favor of subjective, faith-based ideals.

 

As long as such a trend continues, the educational level of the populace at large will suffer, whether they be the product of public, private, or home school.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So now we've gone from needing to love :001_wub: Mommy-taught co-ops to needing to go to public school or else the kids will have a helluva time going to college because homeschoolers are such notorious losers.

 

:001_huh:

 

This is nuts.

 

Now I'm :001_huh: at your statements.

 

It sounds like I'm switching sides in the argument. :glare:

 

I think I am warming up to the idea of conceding that newbies need to hear all this stuff but still holding on to the notion that those of us old enough to be currently hs'ing teens probably slid in under the wire and are probably doing a pretty good job.

 

Would anybody else buy that?

 

So you've gone from...

 

People, read TWTM and follow it. If you aren't a loser, your homeschooled kid won't be a loser. Take a few days off of these "support" forums if all this negativity is making you fear your homeschooled child will spend his 21st birthday sipping Ripple in an alley instead of making something of himself.

 

to basically declaring anyone younger than yourself likely to be crippled by their probable substandard education. Thank goodness I'm technically old enough to have teens. (I started late but, phew! I think I got in under the wire too.) :rolleyes:

 

For what it's worth, the examples in this thread of current kids having a hard time in college and the real world were apparently produced by some of the older set, not by the "newbies" so in need of schooling here. I think it's patently obvious that in every generation there is a wide spectrum of educational achievement and success (however that is measured).

 

This thread is a train wreck. Good grief.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Alte Veste Academy

[justamouse]

This is true! Exactly what I was trying to relay in my earlier post. Yes, you are going to see an overall downward trend in home schooling (and public, and private), when the larger culture itself, suffers from a dearth of critical thinking skills. When I say critical thinking skills, I mean the "how" and "why" of concepts behind all subjects.

 

But also, and this is just my opinion, I see what appears to be a strengthening rejection of the very ideals of Enlightenment that bequeathed to us the technology and understanding of our world that we have today. More and more, I see a hardening attitude towards science and objectivism, in favor of subjective, faith-based ideals.

 

As long as such a trend continues, the educational level of the populace at large will suffer, whether they be the product of public, private, or home school.

 

I agree with you, only I'm going to poke at your 'faith based'. I think that's your personal bias, and while it's not untrue, it's a small subset. In all honesty, I see a hardening attitude because society just wants everything dumbed down.

 

I sat and watched a few hundred public schooled kids leaving an event last night. I chatted with some of the mothers. The utter disdain for intellectualism saddened me.

 

Kind of like, "well, I don't have it and didn't need it, so you don't need it, either."

 

We're all going to hell in a handbasket, and the homeschoolers, the keepers of the flames, are wanting to go sing kumbaya and have fun at co-ops.

 

I'm cranky. Last night really slammed it home for me. I always knew we were swimming upstream, but I never knew how large the stream was.

Edited September 20, 2011 by justamouse

[Firefly]

FTR, we're involved with a co-op I love. The kids also take many, many outside classes and activities. Some of the teachers are awesome; some I'm not crazy about. But like others have said-- that's life.

 

I go back and forth about homeschooling for high school. I struggle with what to do as I have one on the cusp of HS. So I've been doing a lot of thinking about this thread and just wanted to say I really appreciate the thoughtful responses and experiences, from both sides.

[Joanne]

So now we've gone from needing to love :001_wub: Mommy-taught co-ops to needing to go to public school or else the kids will have a helluva time going to college because homeschoolers are such notorious losers.

 

:001_huh:

 

This is nuts.

 

Of course there are homeschoolers who are total losers. Every demographic has its total losers. But I'm not going to send my son to Stupid School down the street where only 19% of boys even graduate (without honors) just because of these horror stories. I'm pretty sure that the skills and knowledge he uses to navigate a Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue Mission might get him through his first day of college, but I could be wrong. He could go in there like a bumbling doofus and come home crying from the total stress of having to find his classes all by his little self.

 

I'll be sure to update.

 

People, read TWTM and follow it. If you aren't a loser, your homeschooled kid won't be a loser. Take a few days off of these "support" forums if all this negativity is making you fear your homeschooled child will spend his 21st birthday sipping Ripple in an alley instead of making something of himself.

 

I know I'll be taking a few days off. I think my time would be better spent listening to my son's Greek and Latin recitations than listening to these litanies of woe from people who claim to believe in homeschooling.

 

Really? That's the lens through which you view this thread?

 

Nice play on the Greek and Latin recitations card. :glare:

 

Joanne, graduating in 81 days Summa Cum Laude with a Masters, taught Language Arts and Math today

[Jean in Newcastle]

It sounds like I'm switching sides in the argument. :glare:

 

I think I am warming up to the idea of conceding that newbies need to hear all this stuff but still holding on to the notion that those of us old enough to be currently hs'ing teens probably slid in under the wire and are probably doing a pretty good job.

 

Would anybody else buy that?

 

Actually I wouldn't buy that. I do see both sides of the argument and I agree with aspects from both. (I think I'm getting splinters in my butt from sitting on the fence.:D) But I don't think that the answer is in absolute or even semi-absolute statements of any kind. I think the answer is "use your brain!" When I taught in public and private schools, the worst teachers were the ones who could never veer from a script, who did exactly what the curriculum told them to do and nothing else because those teachers had no idea what to do with living, breathing students who DID NOT follow their side of the script. I see the same with homeschoolers.

 

If my dd is having trouble with math, the answer is not an automatic throwing out of the mathbook. Neither is it an automatic signing them up with a "professional" teacher. Nor is it an automatic take the math book away and do unschool math for 6 months. The answer is to use my brain to see exactly where the problem is. I might end up using any one of the above approaches or none, or a hybrid.

 

If your older child is having trouble with subjects, the answer is not an automatic co-op. If your child is having trouble with independence, the answer is not an automatic put them into public school. In some situations, for some kids, that is the answer. But it isn't the only answer. And it isn't always the best answer.

 

I like the fact that I can come to this forum and say "I'm having trouble with xyz" and I will get 20 different possible solutions (with some repeats). I like that I can then pick through them and find the one that will fit my particular child in my particular situation. Sometimes there is an immediate solution that has been suggested. Sometimes trying something that someone else has suggested will trigger a variant that was not suggested specifically but is a spin-off of that - in my mind anyway. Sometimes I have to come back and say, "Nope, none of those worked. Now what?" (And sometimes the answer to that is "Try harder and more consistently.") What I don't like are the answers who have the "this is the only sensible answer. If you don't use this, you are an idiot" vibe.

[Joanne]

FTR, we're involved with a co-op I love. The kids also take many, many outside classes and activities. Some of the teachers are awesome; some I'm not crazy about. But like others have said-- that's life.

 

I go back and forth about homeschooling for high school. I struggle with what to do as I have one on the cusp of HS. So I've been doing a lot of thinking about this thread and just wanted to say I really appreciate the thoughtful responses and experiences, from both sides.

 

Homeschooling high school is totally do-able. I wish I could for my own. I'd shift the thinking of my role to "facilitator" instead of teacher (as I was for elementary and Jr. High.) I'd directly teach some subjects, and make arrangements for others utilizing dual credit, select co-ops, tutoring, cottage schools, etc.

[Aelwydd]

But this is the same generation teaching in public schools, for the most part. So how is that different than them homeschooling? I am still in my (late) 20's. I had a TERRIBLE education. But I am intelligent, above average IQ, and I have a college education that was great.

 

Of course, overall trends do not mean that there aren't individual exceptions. We're talking systemic problems here. Neither of my parents are particularly intellectually inclined, however, I am an intelligent, college-educated person.

 

My public education was a mixed experience, but because my parents were not particularly inclined to intellectual pursuits, it was still much, much better than what I would have received at home. For one thing, even though some years I had crappy teachers, I also had some life-changing teachers as well. I credit my writing abilities to my innate love of reading, but also to my 10th grade English teacher.

 

The point being that yours or my individual experiences do not negate the overall, broad picture. Despite this being the Age of Information, I'm constantly appalled by the lack of knowledge I encounter every day in my work and in my community at large. If this is endemic in our society, this lack of a comprehensive worldly view, then I can't see how that myopic and uninformed viewpoint could not, in most cases, be transferred to the younger generation.

 

It happens in public and private schools, as well as home schools. The problem with the home schooling scenario is students do not have much recourse if they are being taught by someone with an anti-intellectual bent. And before anyone objects to the idea that anyone with such an inclination would even want to home school, I would point out, that there is a sizeable portion of the hs community that exists only to inure their children to anything but a religious, subjective worldview.

 

I would be very surprised if, Texas being what it is, politically and philosophically, Joanne hasn't encountered more than a few students produced by such home schooling.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Plucky]

Homeschooling high school is totally do-able. I wish I could for my own. I'd shift the thinking of my role to "facilitator" instead of teacher (as I was for elementary and Jr. High.) I'd directly teach some subjects, and make arrangements for others utilizing dual credit, select co-ops, tutoring, cottage schools, etc.

 

Okay, finally something I can agree with. I was starting to feel that this was a bash homeschool thread. I think in high school this is a very good role to take.

 

I do think homeschooling high school is doable. It is a ton of work. I've done it. My kids though seem to need their independence around 14/15, and we have great relationships so it's not like they are trying to get away from me.

 

I am hoping my last two will go to private high school as well, but if one wants to stay home for high school we'll do it. Besides the need for independence, homeschooling high school is very demanding for me, and I get exhausted. I've discovered I am happier homeschooling through 8th, and then helping them with their homework after school in high school.

 

Homeschooling high school is doable, but it is serious business. So please don't think I am putting it down. I'm not. :001_smile:

[Firefly]

Homeschooling high school is totally do-able. I wish I could for my own. I'd shift the thinking of my role to "facilitator" instead of teacher (as I was for elementary and Jr. High.) I'd directly teach some subjects, and make arrangements for others utilizing dual credit, select co-ops, tutoring, cottage schools, etc.

 

 

More and more, this is the kind of thing I'm envisioning-- trying to get the best of both worlds. There is a community college nearby that is homeschooler friendly and I'm thinking about enrolling DS in a course or two there when he hits (upper?) high school level. Someone else recommended the CLEP so I'm also exploring that.

 

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. :)

[Aelwydd]

I agree with you, only I'm going to poke at your 'faith based'. I think that's your personal bias, and while its not untrue, it's a small subset. In all honesty, I see a hardening attitude because society just wants everything dumbed down.

 

I sat and watched a few hundred public schooled kids leaving an event last night. I chatted with some of the mothers. The utter disdain for intellectualism saddened me.

 

Kind of like, "well, I don't have it and didn't need it, so you don't need it, either."

 

We're all going to hell in a handbasket, and the homeschoolers, the keepers of the flames, are wanting to go sing kumbaya and have fun at co-ops.

 

I'm cranky. Last night really slammed it home for me. I always knew we were swimming upstream, but I never knew how large the stream was.

 

Sorry you were cranky! If I had a way to send you a virtual chocolate doughnut, I would.

 

In answer to your statement re: my bias, yes, you're correct. However, I don't think that bias is without sufficient evidence. You are right that the trend spans the entire population, and I acknowledged that it is evident on both sides of the political spectrum, and across many other demographics.

 

The reason why I point out the "faith-based" trend, is that it seems to be the most well-organized, and intentional barrier to an educated populace out there. It isn't the only one, but it certainly seems to have the most dollars and political backing behind it.

 

But, I see it that way, because my bias is, I don't believe you can have a truly enlightened, highly educated populace if you seek to undermine the basis of science, itself. If you want to destroy a democracy, you attack education. Because, if you attack education, you eventually get a citizenry that is ruled by superstition and ignorance, because it has no tools with which to weigh or criticize information or evidence. Such a populace is much easier to manipulate and to control.

 

That is why I interpret Joanne's experiences with many formerly home schooled students as an acute indication of a failure of education at large. My opinion is, these students stand out, because their education has suffered from the unmitigated effect of teachers, who are poorly taught themselves, for the entirety of their schooling to that point. But, public schooled students are not in a much better position, and some are worse off, given how uniformly awful some schools really are.

 

My conclusion: I home school because I seek to instill a more solid basis in a scientific, and evidence-based, worldview than he would currently receive in his local public school. I am confident he is getting a superior education because of that. However, that is not the case with every home schooled student, and I think that the end results will be as variable as the attitudes and abilities of the parents who are teaching.

[AppleGreen]

I just wanted to say that I was the "This is an interesting read, but disheartening." It has been an invaluable discussion and I really have appreciated it. I know there is a lot of truth in what has been shared. All of that can be true and present, but it can still be disheartening for me personally. I don't think that is reason for concern or alarm.

 

I personally am struggling with the "Why I am doing this?" question and in a lot of ways this thread affirmed much of that for me. Joanne and a number of others have shared their seasoned experiences. Many of those experiences share a common thread. Is seeing many of the fears and worries come to fruition in these shared experiences ever easy for someone?

 

In my first post on this thread I was merely making a personal observation. I find it rather amusing that people are taking issue with those of who found these words disheartening or in any way discouraging. We are all looking at things through the lens of our own autobiography, is it so surprising that to some those words would land that way? Does that mean I can't see truth in them? Or that I am unable or unwilling to hear them objectively and apply them to my personal situation? Not for me. But I can still be disheartened, because I do want the best for my children and I am constantly wondering if I am the person who can provide the best.

 

Sorry if this a rambly mess, it is why I do more reading than replying.