Worship vs. performance

[BakersDozen]

Tonight seven churches gathered downtown for a time of worship. Before this event I was at a friend's house along with my older dds and many of their friends. My 15yo shared with me that the teens were planning to do a group "chant" at the event - the kind of chant one might participate in at summer camp or at a party ("Let me see your Barbie doll"..."What's that you say?" and then everyone acts like a Barbie doll or chicken or whatever the leader chooses). I told my dd that if her friends chose to do something like that it was basically them showing off and not caring that others aren't at the worship to watch teens show off and she was not to participate.

 

Next came the idea of all the teens doing one of their Irish step dances. Again, I told my dd that doing such a thing is perfectly fine when done at the right time and place, the worship event being neither of those. My dd's reaction was not good and she questioned me about dancing as part of worship and why is it wrong? I kept trying to explain to her that if she is personally led to lift her hands or dance as an expression of her worship then that is far different than planning ahead of time to do a dance with her friends; at that point it is not worship, it is a performance meant to draw attention to themselves and is a distraction to others.

 

What do you all think? I personally cannot stand youth with a "Look at me, world!" mentality. I want to encourage my dd in her expression of worship yet the plans these teens were making just seemed wrong.

 

Thoughts?

Edited August 29, 2011 by LuvnMySvn

[LidiyaDawn]

Different people, different churches, different ways to worship.

 

One of the churches in town here worships by having only the men stand and speak, read scripture, sing… women/children sit quietly. Sometimes everyone just sits in silent prayer. There are no instruments used in any of their services.

 

Another church has very contemporary services - "rock" style Christian music is played, people sing and dance, sometimes there are people with streamers and rings, all sorts of stuff. They have a "worship arts" program where people plan dances, dramatic readings, visual arts, whatever. Men, women, teens, kids.. all are involved.

 

… I think there's something for everyone out there. :)

[BakersDozen]

Different people, different churches, different ways to worship.

 

One of the churches in town here worships by having only the men stand and speak, read scripture, sing… women/children sit quietly. Sometimes everyone just sits in silent prayer. There are no instruments used in any of their services.

 

Another church has very contemporary services - "rock" style Christian music is played, people sing and dance, sometimes there are people with streamers and rings, all sorts of stuff. They have a "worship arts" program where people plan dances, dramatic readings, visual arts, and all sorts of stuff. Men, women, teens, kids.. all are involved.

 

… I think there's something for everyone out there. :)

I both agree and understand what you posted however my concern wasn't so much how a particular church body chooses to worship, it was the way the teens were planning activities that had nothing to do with worship but everything (or so it seems) to do with showing off and being distracting. I love that our teens dance together and they will have a chance to do just that tomorrow afternoon at dance class and then at their performances next spring.

 

I don't know...something is really bugging me about this whole thing with the youth.

[OnTheBrink]

I think it's all in the motives. I also think worship is not for public display. Meaning, "Hey, come watch us worship!" seems Pharisee-like. I don't mean no one should worship in public.

[Food4Thought]

For a second, I thought you were in my town - we had a gathering of many of our churches tonight too. :)

 

I completely agree that what your DD was planning was a performance rather than a way of drawing people in to corporate worship, and I think that's the difference. She could worship God however she chooses to on her own time - however, when you are bringing the entire church body together for a worship event, then it ought to draw *everyone* in to worship together. If she planned to lead everyone in Irish dancing as a way to glorify God, then maybe that was different. :lol:

 

Although my logic tends to fall apart with regards to the cheer/chant. Perhaps in her mind, that would be a way to draw people together. Unfortunately, you have a generation gap and most adults would probably see it as a way of grabbing attention instead of bringing people together. Which might get me started on music styles in corporate worship and why they can be so divisive for a church, and I think I'll just stop there! :auto:

[Rosy]

I agree with you completely. What you described sounds to me like a performance. There is nothing wrong with performances, they can even be done to glorify and honor God, but one should not draw attention to oneself when trying to lead others in worship.

 

My favorite church worship is when you barely (if at all) notice the worship band (or pianist/organist/etc). There is a fine line between worship and performance, but sometimes you can just sense that someone is seeking to draw attention to himself/herself and it is very distracting.

 

I think it is hard for teens (especially teen girls) to know the difference...good job drawing the line and offering wise perspective. :)

[VaKim]

I agree with you completely. What you described sounds to me like a performance. There is nothing wrong with performances, they can even be done to glorify and honor God, but one should not draw attention to oneself when trying to lead others in worship.

 

My favorite church worship is when you barely (if at all) notice the worship band (or pianist/organist/etc). There is a fine line between worship and performance, but sometimes you can just sense that someone is seeking to draw attention to himself/herself and it is very distracting.

 

I think it is hard for teens (especially teen girls) to know the difference...good job drawing the line and offering wise perspective. :)

 

:iagree:

[Margo out of lurking]

Thoughts?

 

Most churches worship something--self, other people, money, prestige. And yes, I'm talking about most churches. Few churches worship the true God.

This may not be a popular position to take on the board.

 

Revelation 2-3 references the last four churches still standing today. Only one is a church with the Word and Spirit.

 

An ecumenical service sounds warm and fuzzy, but it's active and deliberate "worship" with many false believers. I'd pass on participating.

[LidiyaDawn]

Most churches worship something--self, other people, money, prestige. And yes, I'm talking about most churches. Few churches worship the true God.

This may not be a popular position to take on the board.

 

Revelation 2-3 references the last four churches still standing today. Only one is a church with the Word and Spirit.

 

An ecumenical service sounds warm and fuzzy, but it's active and deliberate "worship" with many false believers. I'd pass on participating.

 

There's an IFB church in our town and this is the sort of thing that they teach…separation, staying away from ALL other churches (and their members - the homeschooling ladies at this church aren't allowed to join the local Christian Homeschoolers group), stuff like that. The pastor refuses to join the Ministerial Association (group of church leaders who work together in the community) and frequently preaches against other local churches and even the good things that they do for this town.

 

(Members aren't allowed, for example, to help out at the soup kitchen or homeless shelter, as these are 'joint' efforts from all the local churches.)

 

…and this is how they are about *other Protestant churches* … mention Catholicism and the guy's head spins.

[Chris in VA]

I agree with you that it sounds more like she's unable to see the difference between performing and worshiping that includes performing something.

 

My dd is involved in our liturgical dance group. It may look like a performance, but it is not a "look at me" thing--it's a "look at Him" thing. It draws the congregation (see--I'm not saying "audience"--right there is a difference) into worship; they don't necessarily get drawn into dancing, per se, but their inner eyes are directed to God.

 

It's a subtle but very important difference. You are wise to point it out! But I think they may need more examples of it to really get it.

[Mary in VA]

The question that gets to the root of the matter is, "What/Who is the act of worship pointing to?" If it is drawing fellow worshipers closer to God and pointing to Him, giving Him glory, then it is worship. It is just draws people's attention to the "worshipers" and distracts others from their personal worship, then no, it isn't worship. In my opinion, what your dd and her friends were planning was not worship, but would have detracted from the service. I think worship can take many forms, singing, playing an instrument, dancing, etc, but the question is who is the focus. I really don't see how what your dd was planning draws people to worship.

 

Just my 2 cents,

Mary

[Dmmetler]

Ask her how it makes her feel when she performs during worship. Is she drawn to God? Or is she thinking about performing-about making a mistake, about how her body looks, about the next step?

 

I'm a professional musician, and I've basically bowed out of "sharing my gifts with the congregation" because what I've discovered is that I can't step out of the performance mode and worship via performing if I'm the one up front. I'm too trained to focus on the performance to transcend that. So, for me, serving as cantor in the service, or singing a solo with the choir, or playing an instrumental descant over the hymn destroys the benefit of being in the service.

 

And from what I've seen, this is often the case for others. If someone is coming up to me after I've sung in church and commenting about how beautiful it was, or how good of a singer I am, I've not helped THEM worship, either. I've ended up performing and they've ended up watching the performance.

 

I know there are many church musicians who can transcend this and I'm glad they can. But I'm not one of them.

[SailorMom]

Well - take this as it is coming from a non-Christian...

I do not think there is any right way to worship. I think we all have to find a connection to God in our own way. For some - traditional hymns and sermons are the 'right way', maybe a long, contemplative walk in the forest, to others - dancing in joy is the right way.

 

I have to admit, though - the barbie doll thing makes no sense to me :)

 

When we do/did go to church, DH and I always chose to go to traditional services (rather than 'contemporary' one) as they felt more reverent to us - but that is probably because of the way we were raised. I mean - Whirling Dervishes say they get closer to God than at any other time when they are twirling in a trance.... so - who's to say???

[LidiyaDawn]

If someone is coming up to me after I've sung in church and commenting about how beautiful it was, or how good of a singer I am, I've not helped THEM worship, either. I've ended up performing and they've ended up watching the performance.

 

Can't someone do both? Worship *and* like the sound of the singer's voice? Actually.. I would think it would be more difficult to worship if the singing was being led by someone who CAN'T sing (like me), or didn't really know how to play her instrument, because you'd be cringing at the awful sounds and unable to concentrate. Know what I mean?

[chiguirre]

 

What do you all think? I personally cannot stand youth with a "Look at me, world!" mentality. I want to encourage my dd in her expression of worship yet the plans these teens were making just seemed wrong.

 

Thoughts?

 

If these girls rub you the wrong way, you could discourage your dd from being friends with them. Or you could chalk it up to typical teenage behavior and discuss it with your dd, probably a thousand times before it sinks in. Only you can decide how serious the problem is.

[Hwin]

I agree with you. Worship is supposed to glorify God. Sometimes the lines are blurry, but when it comes to doing a dance meant to be WATCHED, then that's not blurry. What another poster mentioned about leading others in song but feeling like a performer - that would be a gray area for me.

 

(On the other end of things, we do have a nice fellow in church that waves his arms and yells himself hoarse during praise and worship. It does distract me when I'm trying to get close to God, but I'm quite sure he's genuine.)

[texasmama]

Teens need guidance in this area, I think. They are probably unaware of the nuances involved. I would view this as a teaching moment if this were my dd.

 

The teens in our church have done some dance/drama which was very moving, but it was a performance and the audience was watching. To chant in the middle of a worship service would be disruptive and innappropriate, IMO.

 

In a slightly different vein (but not so much), our church had a lady twirling white flags at the alter yesterday. This is a new thing. She did it during the entire worship. I found it distracting. My husband said he had to close his eyes because he found it distracting, as well.

[simka2]

I wonder what Brother Lawerance would say. It seems to me that whatever someone does asa means of worship only God Can Judge. If anything I think whoever organized the event should have come up with different title.

[ktgrok]

I'd ask her what this has to do with God. I doubt she could answer well. A performance offered up to God can be wonderful...I think of a choir singing Ave Maria...it is a performance, but it is about religion, and offered up to God in celebration. That is different than chanting something that has nothing to do with God, or step dancing.

[Starr]

She wants to participate and needs some help finding the appropriate way to do it. It gets old when the only kids that can participate are the accomplished musicians. Could someone help them with a short scripture drama?

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

I guess I'm confused. No one is allowed to plan to sing or dance at worship service? That means they are drawing attention to themselves and not worship? Does your church not have a program they follow? My Mom's church has a program they hand out when you walk in the door, and people are scheduled to sing, or do a praise dance, or read the a/b selection . . . etc. I don't understand why planning to do something takes away from worship. If there's no program or planning involved, then do you just go to church and see what will happen?

 

I think young people should be encouraged to share their gifts with others in worship service. Sometimes hanging on tight to old fashioned ways that are really just personal preference, not necessarily biblical, can really run off young, fresh talent in churches. I've seen it happen a number of times.

 

Of course, this is just my personal opinion, heavily tainted by my own experience. I was so uncomfortable with church that I'll never set foot in another one, so keep that in mind while reading my response.

[IlluminatedAttic]

I understand your feelings but I also think we muddy the waters in this area an awful lot for kids. VBS, summer camp, Sunday School all include 'Praise Time' where louder and more energetic seem to be the goals. Many pastors or worship leaders begin children's time with some form of the "If I can't hear you God can't hear you!" back and forth salutation request. We tell them all this is praising God, that showing their joy is a way of praise.

 

What do we tell children when we are dressing them up for a Christmas Pageant? Or about the choir singing hymns that the congregation doesn't have the lyrics for? Or a worship troupe's dance interpretation of the Easter story? All performances but all a regular part of the worship service in many churches and we tell children that the performers are praising God and we admonish them to sit quietly and listen and join in the praise. The adult performers will tell you they are worshiping and their goal is to draw the congregation closer to God but how many of us really transcend that boundary? I personally find it very difficult but maybe that is my own shortcoming and I am in the minority. For me there is a huge difference in my feeling of closeness to God when joining in worship dance as opposed to just watching from my seat.

 

I guess I'm saying that while I agree with your view of the purposed performances I understand why the teens might be confused by your reaction given all the mixed messages we send. Probably time for a much deeper conversation.

[Rebecca VA]

I think she means the worship service was turning into a talent show.

[Sputterduck]

Tonight seven churches gathered downtown for a time of worship. Before this event I was at a friend's house along with my older dds and many of their friends. My 15yo shared with me that the teens were planning to do a group "chant" at the event - the kind of chant one might participate in at summer camp or at a party ("Let me see your Barbie doll"..."What's that you say?" and then everyone acts like a Barbie doll or chicken or whatever the leader chooses). I told my dd that if her friends chose to do something like that it was basically them showing off and not caring that others aren't at the worship to watch teens show off and she was not to participate.

 

Next came the idea of all the teens doing one of their Irish step dances. Again, I told my dd that doing such a thing is perfectly fine when done at the right time and place, the worship event being neither of those. My dd's reaction was not good and she questioned me about dancing as part of worship and why is it wrong? I kept trying to explain to her that if she is personally led to lift her hands or dance as an expression of her worship then that is far different than planning ahead of time to do a dance with her friends; at that point it is not worship, it is a performance meant to draw attention to themselves and is a distraction to others.

 

What do you all think? I personally cannot stand youth with a "Look at me, world!" mentality. I want to encourage my dd in her expression of worship yet the plans these teens were making just seemed wrong.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think you handled that well and I totally agree with you.

[elfgivas]

fwiw... here's my take on it, which is different than what i've read in response so far...

 

i think its wonderful that they wanted to be an active part rather than a passive part of worship.

 

and i am not for a moment prepared to say that God could not take whatever they offer and turn it to some good..... unless they don't offer it.

 

it is possible that there was a teen there who needed to be attracted to the fellowship of worship.... so while on the surface it may seem performance, if in their hearts they were simply abundantly enjoying being together as God's children in sacred space, perhaps that would have been more than enough....

 

blessings,

ann

 

ps. eta: re preparing something rather than it being spontaneous. in my leading of worship there have been many times when the Spirit has spontaneously placed things on people's hearts.... but there have been many more times when the inspiration has come earlier, while they were reading scripture or, for that matter, walking the dog in God's world. if a person is thinking about God, they are opening their hearts and minds to God, and again, i am not prepared to tell God that God can only inspire people to acts of worship while they are in the midst of it.... for example, God told Moses to go to Pharoah and demand the release of God's people.... God did not wait until Moses was in front of Pharoah to put the words into his mouth.

Edited August 29, 2011 by elfgivas@yahoo.com

[BakersDozen]

I understand your feelings but I also think we muddy the waters in this area an awful lot for kids. VBS, summer camp, Sunday School all include 'Praise Time' where louder and more energetic seem to be the goals. Many pastors or worship leaders begin children's time with some form of the "If I can't hear you God can't hear you!" back and forth salutation request. We tell them all this is praising God, that showing their joy is a way of praise.

 

 

My dc hear the opposite from me as far as the loudness and the need for worship to be more energetic for it to mean something. To me, that kind of worship is akin to drug use - one could easily find themself needing more and more, louder and louder, not content or "filled" if the worship is less than the week before. We have walked out of church services where the worship is a rock concert or so loud we are covering our ears.

 

Thanks (as always) for the insights, ladies. I will be discussing this with our dc tonight.

[Sputterduck]

"If I can't hear you God can't hear you!"

 

What?! God can hear anything and everything. Why tell kids that He can't. I understand they are trying to get enthusiasm, but why do it with a blatant lie about the nature of God. :confused:

 

I want my son to know that God still hears even when he is silent and is praying quietly in his heart. God is not deaf. No need to yell at him.

[Whereneverever]

OP- if you aren't comfortable with all the performance- have you considered a more liturgical tradition? I've never seen yelling or dancing or anything in a service in my church.

[Alison in KY]

The question that gets to the root of the matter is, "What/Who is the act of worship pointing to?" If it is drawing fellow worshipers closer to God and pointing to Him, giving Him glory, then it is worship. It is just draws people's attention to the "worshipers" and distracts others from their personal worship, then no, it isn't worship. In my opinion, what your dd and her friends were planning was not worship, but would have detracted from the service. I think worship can take many forms, singing, playing an instrument, dancing, etc, but the question is who is the focus. I really don't see how what your dd was planning draws people to worship.

 

Just my 2 cents,

Mary

 

:iagree:

[Caterpiller]

I agree that the chanting was not worshiping. I agree that maybe the step dance isn't either.

 

I agree with other posters who said that they want to participate and just don't really know where they fit in.

 

One thing that I did as a child was perform with a group of girls who did sign language to a worship song. It was a beautiful moving song, the moves we did were meaningful and not a way to show off our bodies, in fact our bodies were basically still the entire time. I felt moved during the performance personally. It was an amazing experiance. It isn't too hard to do either. Maybe you could help the girls do something simular.

 

There is also a skit on youtube that moves me to tears every time I see it. I feel it is completly and totally God filled and doesn't glorify the performers in any way.

If you had the time, maybe you could recreat the video. Edited August 29, 2011 by Caterpiller

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

 

There is also a skit on youtube that moves me to tears every time I see it. I feel it is completly and totally God filled and doesn't glorify the performers in any way.

If you had the time, maybe you could recreat the video for a live performance.

 

I guess this is where I am confused, possibly showing my ignorance.

 

This is obviously a planned, rehearsed performance. Why is it all right for these adults to plan and perform at worship service, but not teens? Is it the content of the performance? Should the teens only chant hymnal lyrics?

 

I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative, but I simply don't see the distinction. If I were trying to participate in my church and was pushed aside at every turn, it would really start to hinder my faith.

[Caterpiller]

When I said, "Maybe YOU could recreate it" I meant the teenagers could recreate it with her help as a director.

[KarenNC]

I am a bit unclear on whether these teens have been invited to prepare something to present for the worship service (and so are a planned part of the activity, it's just the style that's at issue) or if they are planning to just do a "flash mob" sort of thing during the service being led by others.

 

If it is the second, it sounds like it's being done for shock value and being disrespectful of the people leading the service (IMO), unless the gathering is specifically set up to be spontaneous or led by individual's inclinations.

 

In the first, is there not an adult advisor who is involved with the teens or a worship leader who is in charge of the overall event to help guide them in a way to participate that is appropriate to the occasion but still fun for the teens? Good worship really is good theater, regardless of the style, it's all in what's appropriate to the given situation.

[Little Nyssa]

Yes, that is what I wanted to say-- why isn't there an adult advisor for the teen group who is helping them with this? Why are they left to figure it out on their own?

[Ellie]

…and this is how they are about *other Protestant churches* … mention Catholicism and the guy's head spins.

:lol:

 

::tempted to visit and mention the Catholic Church to this guy just to see his head spin:: ::sorry::

[BakersDozen]

guess this is where I am confused, possibly showing my ignorance.

 

This is obviously a planned, rehearsed performance. Why is it all right for these adults to plan and perform at worship service, but not teens? Is it the content of the performance? Should the teens only chant hymnal lyrics?

 

I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative, but I simply don't see the distinction. If I were trying to participate in my church and was pushed aside at every turn, it would really start to hinder my faith.

 

or if they are planning to just do a "flash mob" sort of thing during the service being led by others.

 

This is what they were planning - to go and do their own thing that was not at all a planned part of the event. It wasn't for worship, it was solely for their own fun. The teens gave no thought to the fact that maybe, just maybe, other people don't want to notice them or be distracted from the event at hand.

 

What ended up happening was the teens went to a deserted part of the square during the event and danced. My dd did not go, not because she was convicted but because she didn't want me hearing that she danced and her getting in trouble. {{sigh}} I'm hoping that at some point my dd will realize that she has her time to dance, her time to have fun with her friends; last night was about God and not about her. I asked her if she would bring a book with her to church this Sunday and at some point during the service find a quiet row in the back and read or do something else "fun". She said of course she wouldn't because that wasn't what she was there for. Exactly. ;)

[Caterpiller]

Oh i didn't realize they didn't want to be a part of the church happenings. I am really glad you set your child straight. Just because her reasonings for not joining in were to avoid punishment from her mom now doesn't mean the lesson won't suddenly sink in when a simular situtation arises in the future that you aren't there to help control. You did good mama! :grouphug:

[PeacefulChaos]

I agree that the chanting was not worshiping. I agree that maybe the step dance isn't either.

 

I agree with other posters who said that they want to participate and just don't really know where they fit in.

 

One thing that I did as a child was perform with a group of girls who did sign language to a worship song. It was a beautiful moving song, the moves we did were meaningful and not a way to show off our bodies, in fact our bodies were basically still the entire time. I felt moved during the performance personally. It was an amazing experiance. It isn't too hard to do either. Maybe you could help the girls do something simular.

 

There is also a skit on youtube that moves me to tears every time I see it. I feel it is completly and totally God filled and doesn't glorify the performers in any way.

If you had the time, maybe you could recreat the video.

 

love that human video! we've done it in the past - adults did it once and then the youth group did it later. it's really good. :D

[KarenNC]

I asked her if she would bring a book with her to church this Sunday and at some point during the service find a quiet row in the back and read or do something else "fun". She said of course she wouldn't because that wasn't what she was there for. Exactly. ;)

 

I wondered. I would actually equate what they planned to bringing a book to a church service, then standing up and reading aloud from it during the sermon. It's no more appropriate than mooning the audience during a graduation, streaking through a football game, deliberately passing gas or making loud rude noises during a meditation or prayer, etc and appears to stem from the same impulse---immaturity. The point is to be rude and disruptive for the sake of being rude and disruptive.

Edited August 30, 2011 by KarenNC

[Sputterduck]

I wondered. I would actually equate what they planned to bringing a book to a church service, then standing up and reading aloud from it during the sermon. It's no more appropriate than mooning the audience during a graduation, streaking through a football game, deliberately passing gas or making loud rude noises during a meditation or prayer, etc and appears to stem from the same impulse---immaturity. The point is to be rude and disruptive for the sake of being rude and disruptive.

 

I agree completely.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

This is what they were planning - to go and do their own thing that was not at all a planned part of the event. It wasn't for worship, it was solely for their own fun. The teens gave no thought to the fact that maybe, just maybe, other people don't want to notice them or be distracted from the event at hand.

 

What ended up happening was the teens went to a deserted part of the square during the event and danced. My dd did not go, not because she was convicted but because she didn't want me hearing that she danced and her getting in trouble. {{sigh}} I'm hoping that at some point my dd will realize that she has her time to dance, her time to have fun with her friends; last night was about God and not about her. I asked her if she would bring a book with her to church this Sunday and at some point during the service find a quiet row in the back and read or do something else "fun". She said of course she wouldn't because that wasn't what she was there for. Exactly. ;)

 

OOOOhhhhhhhh now I get it. Thanks for your patience with me. I thought they wanted to participate in the service and weren't being allowed to, but what you are describing is totally different.

 

Don't you just love the internet? :lol: