Thoughts about co-ops and SOFs

[Jann in TX]

Thinking out loud here-- I'm only a homeschool mom for a few more weeks before DD goes off to college...but I have been a part of a few co-ops... good and bad in my 12+ years of homeschooling.

 

***

3 circles meet at the park. They are all homeschool families and all love the color yellow--in fact yellow is a VERY important color to them. They decide to get together regularly and pool resources to teach their children-- incorporating the yellow they love so much into all subjects. The group is open to other circle families joining-as long as they love yellow too. Yellow is that important to them.

 

One circle family is very interested in joining but they are not yellow only circles. This family is orange--it has some yellow but it also incorporates red too.

 

A second circle family also wants to join. They do not like yellow--they are purple. They want to join for purely educational reasons--and they don't see how yellow has anything to do with education.

 

The original yellow circles soon find their little group at the center of a major debate. If they do not allow the other colors of circles to join them they will be called 'snobby', 'rude' and 'intolerant'. If they allow the orange circles and the purple circles to join their group then they would be compromising their dedication to yellow and will have to stop the incorporation of yellow in their classes (so they will not offend the other colors). This seems like a 'fair' solution to the orange and purple families... but it is not what brought the original group together.

 

The love of yellow is what brought the group together and their strong desire to have yellow be a part of their whole lives--even in the education of their children...to them, yellow is not something that should be loved in secret.

***

 

I do not see anything wrong with the yellow circles having their own homeschool group even though I am a blue square.

[Lovemyblessings]

I like this analogy :)

[Joanne]

Nothing in the history of the world suggests that exclusive-minded, insular religion adds to the quality of life of people, to community, or to human growth.

 

In fact, exclusive minded religion has, instead, a documentable history of violence, hate, power abuse, judgement, murder, and exclusion.

[Samiam]

I love that....makes perfect sense.

 

I agree completely. It is the Yellow Circle group's right to choose if they want only yellow circles or want to include other colors/shapes.

 

Whether we Blue Squares agree with their choice, or not, is irrevelant.

Perhaps the Yellow Circles will miss out on wonderful opportunity to meet and get to know other shapes, or other colors, but that is their loss.

 

A Blue Square does not have the right to walk into the Yellow Circle group, which has clearly stated they are Yellow Circles, and expect the group to conform to fit the Blue Square in.

 

Can Yellow Circles and Blue Squares be friends out side of a group, and just avoid talking about colors and shapes, sure! But honestly, I do not see why Blue Squares would want to join a group that has openly stated they are group based on Yellow Circles.

 

And, yes, I am a Blue Square.

[Xuzi]

But what if the Blue Squares *aren't* expecting to be accomodated, just allowed to participate in the positive things the group has to offer? What if they don't mind at all the inclusion of yellow in the classes, as they find yellow a very nice color as well?

[Shellydon]

Very nice analogy. I would never join the local pagan homeschooling group and demand they accommodate my very different beliefs. I will hang out with them at other homeschooling events.

[Shellydon]

But what if the Blue Squares *aren't* expecting to be accomodated, just allowed to participate in the positive things the group has to offer? What if they don't mind at all the inclusion of yellow in the classes, as they find yellow a very nice color as well?

 

 

In the co-op I am a part of that is no problem at all and blue squares are more than welcome. However, if the yellow circles would really, really prefer not to have blue squares, I think that is their choice.

[HRAAB]

Just speaking for myself, but I think it's the name they claim that rubs me the wrong way. 'Christian Homeschoolers of .....'. Great, you think. No. By the time they get through defining Christian it has become a subset of subset of a subset of Christianity. It would be more honest if they said 'Selective Christian Homeschoolers....'

 

Does the Yellow Group allow for all variations of yellow: lemon yellow, dark yellow, light yellow, or only what they consider pure yellow. Yes, I know, it's their group, their rules. But there are others who claim the same name but get turned away. Their color is slightly off....

[LittleIzumi]

But what if the Blue Squares *aren't* expecting to be accomodated, just allowed to participate in the positive things the group has to offer? What if they don't mind at all the inclusion of yellow in the classes, as they find yellow a very nice color as well?

 

Exactly.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I think in a world where yellow circles are more and more likely to be...confronted, they have a right to have a space free from possible confrontation. Even if the individual blue squares, orange circles, and purple circles were well behaved shapes. Would you be asking the same question if it were blue squares wanting to have their own confrontation-free group?

[elegantlion]

Does the Yellow Group allow for all variations of yellow: lemon yellow, dark yellow, light yellow, or only what they consider pure yellow. Yes, I know, it's their group, their rules. But there are others who claim the same name but get turned away. Their color is slightly off....

 

:iagree: If all you are left with is the amber waves of grain, you'll miss the vibrant yellow of a bee, or the golden hue of the sun.

 

~I am a somewhat rusty color leaf

[angela in ohio]

But what if the Blue Squares *aren't* expecting to be accomodated, just allowed to participate in the positive things the group has to offer? What if they don't mind at all the inclusion of yellow in the classes, as they find yellow a very nice color as well?

 

Because some Blue Squares do expect to be and some don't. Once you let one Blue Square in, you have to let them all in. How do you determine which will disrupt and which just want to participate? I can see objections to that inteview process. ;)

 

(I have no horse in this race, btw. I just know the reason this doesn't work, as I have seen it many times.)

[kalanamak]

In the co-op I am a part of that is no problem at all and blue squares are more than welcome. However, if the yellow circles would really, really prefer not to have blue squares, I think that is their choice.

 

What if the yellow circle wanting to join is just a hair oval? Not to the naked eye, but if you get our your protractor, jab the point in the middle and start eyeballing the perimeter?

[Osmosis Mom]

Nothing in the history of the world suggests that exclusive-minded, insular religion adds to the quality of life of people, to community, or to human growth.

 

In fact, exclusive minded religion has, instead, a documentable history of violence, hate, power abuse, judgement, murder, and exclusion.

 

:iagree: which is why I am inclusive and on my own little island.

[twoforjoy]

I think in a world where yellow circles are more and more likely to be...confronted, they have a right to have a space free from possible confrontation. Even if the individual blue squares, orange circles, and purple circles were well behaved shapes. Would you be asking the same question if it were blue squares wanting to have their own confrontation-free group?

 

It would depend. If the blues said that, in their group, you could not question the love of blue but the love of yellow could be challenged, that wouldn't be fair. But if the blues decided that, in their group, you could not confront anybody about their favorite color, then that's fine. That's what makes an inclusive group different from an exclusive group.

 

I haven't seen anybody say, "Hey, what a group needs is a SoF that would exclude conservative Protestants!" It's an issue of whether groups should include everybody or not. And, no matter how much we try to twist it, there is a huge difference between those two positions. Being inclusive is not the same as being exclusive, and in fact it's the opposite.

[oneplustwoIdaho]

:iagree: Free country. Yellow Circles can gather as they choose.

There are many Yellowish Roundish beings, like me, who also may choose to associate with others in a non-color specific manner. They can create their own fun co-op. To each his own.

[MindyD]

:iagree: Free country. Yellow Circles can gather as they choose.

There are many Yellowish Roundish beings, like me, who also may choose to associate with others in a non-color specific manner. They can create their own fun co-op. To each his own.

:iagree:

[bettyandbob]

The problem I have with the exclusiveness is Christ was not about excluding. I would have no problem with a group that said all could join, but Christian teaching would be a part of the group's guiding principles. Additionally, to ensure these principles I could see saying that only Christian's could be on the decision making level of said group.

 

There used to be Jewish group in my area that wasn't exclusive. A friend of mine joined for a while. Her son had friends in the group. She never expected any adjustments in teaching and none were made. Why wouldn't a Christian group be like this?

[mommaduck]

But if the group of yellow circles are the only group around and call themselves The Coloured Shapes Group, then yes, there is an issue due to excluding other coloured shapes. If it's really an issue, then call yourselves The Yellow Circle Group instead.

 

The yellow circles may think, "go start your own group", but they might have a problem with another group also called The Coloured Shapes Group, and it's difficult to start your own group if there are very few, if any, other blue squares or purple triangles around. Yes, yellow circles have the right to meet separately, but call yourself something specific so others know a bit more upfront that you are being exclusive (aka, a bit more honest), rather than sounding general and then saying that you're specific.

Edited July 15, 2011 by mommaduck

[Tarreymere]

Ironically, however, the color yellow came into this world because of a man who loved others (even others who loved other colors) so passionately that he did crazy things like hang out with tax collectors and sinners of all kinds, even eating meals with them. He even said crazy things like "And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" This man loved everyone. He spent his time with people who loved all kinds of colors, and he tried to help them anyway. He even helped lepers! He said "Love your neighbor as yourself". How crazy was that? Some people even said that when he let himself be murdered that he did it because he really loved everyone and wanted to help them. Now that was really crazy.

Some people started to think that maybe that guy who loved yellow was really someone special, someone they could learn important things from, and even though he was dead they still talked about him and the crazy things he did. Some said he wasn't really dead at all, that he was still around loving everyone and wanting to help everyone, no matter what color they loved. So, the people who loved yellow made up a special club

that only allowed other people who loved yellow (since these yellow lovers didn't love everyone like the crazy guy used to) and they sat around and talked about the color yellow with the other people who already loved the color yellow. Only people who already loved yellow could join the club, and no tax collectors or lepers were allowed in. I think if the crazy guy wasn't already dead he would be a little sad about that.

[Halcyon]

But what if the son or daughter of a Yellow Circle befriends the son or daughter of a Blue Square and would like them to join them in their homeschool activities? What do you say to that Yellow Circle child?

 

To me, it's exclusionary and merely serves to highlight the differences amongst people. You can believe something fervently and still associate, befriend and (horrrors!) be in a homeschool group with those who believe differently. In fact, it might strengthen your faith, introduce others to your beliefs, and create more harmony in the world.

 

Divisiveness and exclusion, IMO, don't promote peace. And if I recall, Jesus was a welcoming savior.

[Halcyon]

Ironically, however, the color yellow came into this world because of a man who loved others (even others who loved other colors) so passionately that he did crazy things like hang out with tax collectors and sinners of all kinds, even eating meals with them. He even said crazy things like "And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" This man loved everyone. He spent his time with people who loved all kinds of colors, and he tried to help them anyway. He even helped lepers! He said "Love your neighbor as yourself". How crazy was that? Some people even said that when he let himself be murdered that he did it because he really loved everyone and wanted to help them. Now that was really crazy.

Some people started to think that maybe that guy who loved yellow was really someone special, someone they could learn important things from, and even though he was dead they still talked about him and the crazy things he did. Some said he wasn't really dead at all, that he was still around loving everyone and wanting to help everyone, no matter what color they loved. So, the people who loved yellow made up a special club

that only allowed other people who loved yellow (since these yellow lovers didn't love everyone like the crazy guy used to) and they sat around and talked about the color yellow with the other people who already loved the color yellow. Only people who already loved yellow could join the club, and no tax collectors or lepers were allowed in. I think if the crazy guy wasn't already dead he would be a little sad about that.

 

Beautiful.

[FaithManor]

:iagree: which is why I am inclusive and on my own little island.

 

 

Nadia,

 

We must have "twin" islands! It's too bad we do not live "in the same neck of the woods".

 

Sometimes, it's a wonderful thing to be on the island. Sometime's it is qute lonely.

 

Faith

[Ellie]

Just speaking for myself, but I think it's the name they claim that rubs me the wrong way. 'Christian Homeschoolers of .....'. Great, you think. No. By the time they get through defining Christian it has become a subset of subset of a subset of Christianity. It would be more honest if they said 'Selective Christian Homeschoolers....'

If they make their SOF available for inquirers to read right off the bat, isn't that "honest"?

[Mama Geek]

The question comes down to do yellow circles have freedom of association or not?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:iagree: I think that it is also worth pointing out that the yellow circles are also living in neighborhoods with lots of colored shapes, on sports teams with lots of colored shapes, on scout troops with lots of colored shapes. Being like hued in one aspect of their life does not indicate contempt for other shades and shapes. They may even be part of other homeschool groups that are open to a wide spectrum of shades and shapes.

[Joanne]

The question comes down to do yellow circles have freedom of association or not?

 

Of course they do.

 

It's just ironic that the principles behind yellow are inclusive rather than exclusive. Ironic, and sad.

[bettyandbob]

The question comes down to do yellow circles have freedom of association or not?

 

Sure, but as a yellow circle I think groups that call themselves yellow circles should be more specific in what they call themselves and admit that their exclusive behavior goes beyond what it means to be a yellow circle. Perhaps the groups that call themselves "yellow circles" are really "small yellow circles with a chord through the origin, having a tangent that makes a right angle to the chord. "

There may be many in the larger group of "yellow circles" who do not want the name "yellow circle" associated with the viewpoint of "small yellow circles with a chord through the origin, having a tangent that makes a right angle to the chord. " because it has viewpoints that are interpreted as prejudicial to many nonyellow circles. And besides as one poster pointed out the man who started yellow had nothing to do with exclusion and that is why exclusion is offensive to many yellow circles who are not part of the "small yellow circles with a chord through the origin, having a tangent that makes a right angle to the chord" group.

 

Now, I do know other groups like "green triangles" are exclusive as part of their beliefs. I can accept that. It's just that exclusivity is not part of the "yellow circle" belief. So, as a yellow circle, I don't accept exclusivity.

[mcconnellboys]

If this were the way the homeschool groups in my area had worked, that might be well and good. And if they advertised when they opened up for others to join them that only others who did xyz could join, that might be fine, too. However, this is not what I've ever encountered.

 

What I've encountered is that a group sets forth certain propositions about itself and people join it. These people invest a lot of time and sometimes even a lot of money into the group. Then some in the group decide that they don't like certain things and they want to exclude those who do those things (or don't do them, whatever). So people who are already vested in the group, and whose children may have been in the group for years, are now shut out suddenly.

 

Or, people come in and help start a group, investing a ton of sweat equity and money (not to mention time), then someone or some small group decide to stage a coup (homeschool coups are to women as military coups are to small countries) and take over, completely changing many aspects of the group which will thereby exclude or drive away the original people who put in all the work to get the group up and running....

 

And there are several other, similar, scenarios, as well.

 

I have never once seen a group of people here who get together, have a well-defined idea of what they want, and who then get attacked by strangers who want to join the group and completely change it, or make it adapt to their desires. That has just never happened in my experience.

 

The very first group I ever joined here was a large "Christian" group. It had been around for several years. Catholics were a large part of it. The year after I joined, some who were in leadership for that year decided that they wanted to exclude non-Protestants from the group. It was not put to a vote of the entire membership or even discussed. The leadership group simply drew up a statement of faith that they knew full well would exclude Catholics from the group. And it did just that; and others, like me, left because they felt this was completely unjust.

 

A few years later, that same group dropped the statement of faith, but a Catholic father sitting on the board that year was subjected to comments about "holding the Catholic registrations" to see if the group could fill up their membership limit without including any who were Catholic....

 

I, myself, helped form another group - twice - only to have it taken over by first one and then another mad housewife who had to have complete control of all aspects of the group, sort of negating the whole idea of a "co-operative" learning environment....

 

Yes, certainly, if a small group of folks find they have similar learning interests and styles and get together to do things in a certain way, then I would not expect others to attempt to horn in on their plans and change them. Nor would I expect them to invite others to butt in. Closed groups are certainly welcome to have and follow certain rules or guidelines. However, when people commit time and money to groups - and more importantly, when their children form friendships within groups and have expectations of being able to continue those - then some come in and cause those who have already joined to be excluded, that's a whole 'nother ballgame....

[T'smom]

I'm a yellow circle. I try to be a VERY yellow circle. I want yellow in all areas of my life. But, rainbows are beautiful and although I have yellow in all areas....I want to not just include, but embrace ALL other shapes and colors. (In fact, I believe that if I don't do this......my yellowness will fade) My embracing other shapes and colors doesn't change my yellowness!

 

I am enjoying this analogy!

[elegantlion]

But if the group of yellow circles are the only group around and call themselves The Coloured Shapes Group, then yes, there is an issue due to excluding other coloured shapes. If it's really an issue, then call yourselves The Yellow Circle Group instead.

 

The yellow circles may think, "go start your own group", but they might have a problem with another group also called The Coloured Shapes Group, and it's difficult to start your own group if there are very few, if any, other blue squares or purple triangles around. Yes, yellow circles have the right to meet separately, but call yourself something specific so others know a bit more upfront that you are being exclusive (aka, a bit more honest), rather than sounding general and then saying that you're specific.

 

This is what I would have liked to say, if I could be so eloquent. So I'll put :iagree:.

 

I prefer life to be like the giant 64 color crayola box.

 

I even like different shades of yellow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shades_of_yellow

[FaithManor]

I would also like to point out that the real issue is not that the yellow circles want to have a group that is all about yellow circles, but that it is the manner in which some yellow circles treat all the colors and shapes they have arbitrarily decided cannot possibly associate with yellow circles. Not all, and probably not a majority of yellows act this way. Only the really LOUD/BRIGHT yellows and they draw a lot of artistic attention to themselves much to the chagrin of the shier, more compassionate yellows. So, some yellow circle groups choose to redefine "yellow" and "circle" and then proceed to winnow out the other colored shapes based on a far narrower definition of hue and conformity than is even presented in the Crayola Guide to Color brought to you buy the maker of Crayola. Suddenly Crayola yellows are now relabeled "Roseart" and are therefore substandard yellow circles.

 

Essentially, the yellow circle group co-opts a term that they never originally defined nor actually possess a right to define, change the definition - even radically - and then superimpose this on others. It's not that they are focusing on yellow circles because they all just love yellow and circles and want to spend a day every week at the park discussing yellow circles. It's that they seek to create a social strata in which, though they are not endowed with the inalienable right to be the color and shape judge/jury, they do in fact judge all of the other shapes and hues. The yellow circle club essentially usurps the roll of Crayola and decides who gets in the box and who does not or at least conveys their pronouncements to the other yellow circles thereby renaming them the green triangles...again, another job not bequethed to the yellow circles to begin with.

 

That's the rub. Many a yellow circle has been told they are not yellow circles though they very clearly are or that they are likely to dirty the yellow circle next door for not being the right shade of yellow... very hurtful and unproductive simply because some yellow circles are either so insecure it makes them feel better or so certain they are the personal voice of Crayola, that other yellow circles are told they are headed for the wax melter. This makes some yellow circles upset because it reflects badly on Crayola those who are trying to follow Crayola's mission statement. This is very likely the personal experience of many yellow circles, green triangles, orange circles, blue squares, and purple parallelograms who have posted in these threads. In my case, the yellow circles decided I am not a yellow circle based solely on a set of fiction books I have allowed my young shapes to read.

 

So, if the yellow circles want to have a yellow circle group celebrating yellow circles, wonderful. But, if the yellow circles use this as an excuse to speak for Crayola on a point that Crayola has not given permission for yellow circles to decide, then they should refrain from calling others Roseart and treating them like torn, stained, and discarded accu-cut products. Only Crayola gets to decide what color, hue, and shape is worthy of the box and the label...the other colored shapes are only called to shine their hue for others.

 

As a yellow circle with an odd hue, so rarely if ever chosen by any of the other yellow circles to be involved in any version of box fellowship, I have learned to value the friendship and comaraderie of a variety of colors and shapes and am thankful for the inclusiveness of other crayons because amongst my own shade, I am an outcast. I may have a box fellowship I attend with my partner colored shape and our shaped offspring, but our own hue remains largely hidden because few yellow circles in the surrounding boxes are tolerant of lighter or darker shades of yellow or squat circles. All of which makes Crayola, the maker of all colors and shapes, very, very sad.

 

Faith

[Xuzi]

I would also like to point out that the real issue is not that the yellow circles want to have a group that is all about yellow circles, but that it is the manner in which some yellow circles treat all the colors and shapes they have arbitrarily decided cannot possibly associate with yellow circles. Not all, and probably not a majority of yellows act this way. Only the really LOUD/BRIGHT yellows and they draw a lot of artistic attention to themselves much to the chagrin of the shier, more compassionate yellows. So, some yellow circle groups choose to redefine "yellow" and "circle" and then proceed to winnow out the other colored shapes based on a far narrower definition of hue and conformity than is even presented in the Crayola Guide to Color brought to you buy the maker of Crayola. Suddenly Crayola yellows are now relabeled "Roseart" and are therefore substandard yellow circles.

 

Essentially, the yellow circle group co-opts a term that they never originally defined nor actually possess a right to define, change the definition - even radically - and then superimpose this on others. It's not that they are focusing on yellow circles because they all just love yellow and circles and want to spend a day every week at the park discussing yellow circles. It's that they seek to create a social strata in which, though they are not endowed with the inalienable right to be the color and shape judge/jury, they do in fact judge all of the other shapes and hues. The yellow circle club essentially usurps the roll of Crayola and decides who gets in the box and who does not or at least conveys their pronouncements to the other yellow circles thereby renaming them the green triangles...again, another job not bequethed to the yellow circles to begin with.

 

That's the rub. Many a yellow circle has been told they are not yellow circles though they very clearly are or that they are likely to dirty the yellow circle next door for not being the right shade of yellow... very hurtful and unproductive simply because some yellow circles are either so insecure it makes them feel better or so certain they are the personal voice of Crayola, that other yellow circles are told they are headed for the wax melter. This makes some yellow circles upset because it reflects badly on Crayola those who are trying to follow Crayola's mission statement. This is very likely the personal experience of many yellow circles, green triangles, orange circles, blue squares, and purple parallelograms who have posted in these threads. In my case, the yellow circles decided I am not a yellow circle based solely on a set of fiction books I have allowed my young shapes to read.

 

So, if the yellow circles want to have a yellow circle group celebrating yellow circles, wonderful. But, if the yellow circles use this as an excuse to speak for Crayola on a point that Crayola has not given permission for yellow circles to decide, then they should refrain from calling others Roseart and treating them like torn, stained, and discarded accu-cut products. Only Crayola gets to decide what color, hue, and shape is worthy of the box and the label...the other colored shapes are only called to shine their hue for others.

 

As a yellow circle with an odd hue, so rarely if ever chosen by any of the other yellow circles to be involved in any version of box fellowship, I have learned to value the friendship and comaraderie of a variety of colors and shapes and am thankful for the inclusiveness of other crayons because amongst my own shade, I am an outcast. I may have a box fellowship I attend with my partner colored shape and our shaped offspring, but our own hue remains largely hidden because few yellow circles in the surrounding boxes are tolerant of lighter or darker shades of yellow or squat circles. All of which makes Crayola, the maker of all colors and shapes, very, very sad.

 

Faith

This. Is. Awesome.

[asta]

This. Is. Awesome.

 

I concur.

 

The yellow circle slasher from the website I made:

 

"We are a community of individuals committed to providing the best opportunities for our children, without ideological, political, or theological bias. We have no membership requirements, and ask only that individuals abide by the Golden rule."

 

 

So I guess there is a "bit" of yellow in that (golden) - but it wasn't intentionally on the yellow color wheel - it was put there as something universal that everyone could understand (childhood axiom and all of that).

 

 

The idea behind the group was that people who wished to ONLY meet in yellow circles should perhaps gather in places that worshiped the color yellow. Everyone else could show up at this group and decide who they wanted to talk to on their own - without wearing any gang symbols.

 

 

asta

[Mrs Mungo]

I think a lot of people have made great points.

 

My biggest issue is this: history. History tells us that exclusion leads to a Christian caste system. History tells us that exclusion teaches us to fear and eventually hate the fear of others. That eventually leads to the Son of God being crucified, Christians being fed to lions, Catholics having their heads lopped off, Protestants having their heads lopped off, Catholics living in fear of having their heads lopped off if they are too noisy about their religion, Native American children stolen from their families so that they could learn a "better" way of life, Jews going to the gas chamber, Catholic and/or Protestant children being killed on their way to school, Muslim girls being blown up in their school for having the nerve to think they should be educated...

 

It is easy to hate the "other" who doesn't share your beliefs. It is hard to hate your close friend because they don't share all of your beliefs.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Mrs Mungo
Iphone

[Heather in Neverland]

The best part about living in Malaysia is the diversity. We live near, go to school with and hang out with people of all different races and faiths. Although we are unabashedly Christian, we think the diversity enriches our lives and have no problem with our children hanging out with Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, whatever.

 

I have belonged to both inclusive and exclusive homeschool groups and I think they both had wonderful things to offer but the inclusive group, FOR ME, was a little easier to "relax" in, if that makes any sense.

 

Now, having said all that...

 

I find it interesting that posters who are typically quite vehement about "choice" in any and every area of life you can think of are suddenly very intolerant of a group of people exercising their freedom of choice to hang out with some people and not hang out with others.

 

It is a matter of freedom which many of you are USUALLY pretty big on.

[bettyandbob]

T

I find it interesting that posters who are typically quite vehement about "choice" in any and every area of life you can think of are suddenly very intolerant of a group of people exercising their freedom of choice to hang out with some people and not hang out with others.

 

It is a matter of freedom which many of you are USUALLY pretty big on.

 

 

My problem is with giving the group a name which derives from someone who quite the opposite of exclusive, but making the group exclusive. It is offensive to me as a member of the group of people who believes the same thing that the name would be used in an exclusive manner.

 

There are other groups that are known to be exclusive by their name. That's fine. Don't use a name that was from the start inclusive to exclude others.

[iquilt]

I agree with the OP. Very nice analogy. If everyone was a yellow circle than life would be boring, wouldn't it? That doesn't mean the yellow circles shouldn't be able to create their own group.

[Halftime Hope]

What if the yellow circle wanting to join is just a hair oval? Not to the naked eye, but if you get our your protractor, jab the point in the middle and start eyeballing the perimeter?

 

 

:lol:

 

Kalanamak, wtihout the context of the thread, I have to hand over the Most Bizarre Post award to you. I had to read it several times, but really enjoyed it before I "got" it...almost sad I got it.

[Josie]

:iagree: I think that it is also worth pointing out that the yellow circles are also living in neighborhoods with lots of colored shapes, on sports teams with lots of colored shapes, on scout troops with lots of colored shapes. Being like hued in one aspect of their life does not indicate contempt for other shades and shapes. They may even be part of other homeschool groups that are open to a wide spectrum of shades and shapes.

 

 

:iagree: Come on...tolerance goes both ways! When I want to associate only with my ilk in one area of my life I am called narrow minded???????? HUH?????????

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

My problem is with giving the group a name which derives from someone who quite the opposite of exclusive.

 

well it really all depends on your definition of exclusive (and inclusive for that matter). Exactly how exclusive/inclusive both Jesus and Christianity itself is would make an interesting discussion .... For another thread. ;)

[FaithManor]

Now, having said all that...

 

I find it interesting that posters who are typically quite vehement about "choice" in any and every area of life you can think of are suddenly very intolerant of a group of people exercising their freedom of choice to hang out with some people and not hang out with others.

 

It is a matter of freedom which many of you are USUALLY pretty big on.

 

 

Heather, I am a huge BELIEVER in choice and freedom of religion. My point was not that I am intolerant of the right of exclusive groups to exist. My point was spiritual in nature. They can go worship yellow circles and hate blue squares in private. But, when an innocent yellow circle or blue square approaches them to join the club and then are confronted with a SOF they are unable to spiritually agree with, the rub comes when the yellow circle group makes "declarations" about the spiritual condition of the one that cannot in good conscience join, the backstabbing, the maligning, etc. It is unfortunate, but I'm speaking again from the micro-culture of my Crayola box here. There are six colored shape groups in our area that all claim to be yellow circle groups and every.single.one.of.them. is brutally unkind and downright cruel to the yellow circles who unwittingly think, "Oh, hey, I think I'd like my little circles to have the opportunity to play with, or take a class with, or go on a field trip with the yellow circles in my neighborhood."

 

The issue is not their right to exclude. It's the manner in which they exclude and the damage that does within the larger body of yellow circles and what that does to the reputation of the followers of Crayola as a larger body amongst the other colored shapes.

 

Again, no problem with the other boxes existing and having a set of criteria for joining. The problem is with the implementation and execution of the criteria for exclusivity. On a larger, philosophical, metaphysical, spiritual level, it must also beg the question of what right they have from Crayola to practice in such manner....when one reads the Guidebook to Crayola Colors, there is actually NO instruction for the Creator's yellow circles to justify the de-classification and de-shaping/de-coloring of other accu-cuts. So, they may have a "right" within their secular government's structure to be as exclusive and even as offensive as they want to be, but that doesn't automatically equate to a right to do so with the blessing of Crayola whose view of the box is that He loves and died for ALL of His colors and shapes. Therefore, the other yellow circles on the outside looking in, see the very real damage done to the reputation of Crayola and express their frustration. The isse is not intolerance of the right of a yellow circle, exclusive club to exist. The intolerance is from the fact that some, certainly not all, usurp Crayola's right to judge his crayons alone, in the way in which they implement their exclusivity.

 

Faith

[twoforjoy]

The question comes down to do yellow circles have freedom of association or not?

 

I don't think that's the question at all, since nobody has, as far as I've seen, questioned the right of these groups to exist.

 

The question is whether it's the right thing to do. Should it be legal to have a group that only allows yellows to join? Sure, and I don't think anybody is looking to take away their legal right to do so. But, is it moral? Is it right? Is it loving? Is it just? Those are the questions that we should be asking, especially if the yellow circles claim to be associating around a devotion to a yellow of love and justice.

[Ellie]

If this were the way the homeschool groups in my area had worked, that might be well and good. And if they advertised when they opened up for others to join them that only others who did xyz could join, that might be fine, too. However, this is not what I've ever encountered.

 

What I've encountered is that a group sets forth certain propositions about itself and people join it. These people invest a lot of time and sometimes even a lot of money into the group. Then some in the group decide that they don't like certain things and they want to exclude those who do those things (or don't do them, whatever). So people who are already vested in the group, and whose children may have been in the group for years, are now shut out suddenly.

 

Or, people come in and help start a group, investing a ton of sweat equity and money (not to mention time), then someone or some small group decide to stage a coup (homeschool coups are to women as military coups are to small countries) and take over, completely changing many aspects of the group which will thereby exclude or drive away the original people who put in all the work to get the group up and running....

 

And there are several other, similar, scenarios, as well.

 

I have never once seen a group of people here who get together, have a well-defined idea of what they want, and who then get attacked by strangers who want to join the group and completely change it, or make it adapt to their desires. That has just never happened in my experience.

 

The very first group I ever joined here was a large "Christian" group. It had been around for several years. Catholics were a large part of it. The year after I joined, some who were in leadership for that year decided that they wanted to exclude non-Protestants from the group. It was not put to a vote of the entire membership or even discussed. The leadership group simply drew up a statement of faith that they knew full well would exclude Catholics from the group. And it did just that; and others, like me, left because they felt this was completely unjust.

 

A few years later, that same group dropped the statement of faith, but a Catholic father sitting on the board that year was subjected to comments about "holding the Catholic registrations" to see if the group could fill up their membership limit without including any who were Catholic....

 

I, myself, helped form another group - twice - only to have it taken over by first one and then another mad housewife who had to have complete control of all aspects of the group, sort of negating the whole idea of a "co-operative" learning environment....

 

Yes, certainly, if a small group of folks find they have similar learning interests and styles and get together to do things in a certain way, then I would not expect others to attempt to horn in on their plans and change them. Nor would I expect them to invite others to butt in. Closed groups are certainly welcome to have and follow certain rules or guidelines. However, when people commit time and money to groups - and more importantly, when their children form friendships within groups and have expectations of being able to continue those - then some come in and cause those who have already joined to be excluded, that's a whole 'nother ballgame....

BTDT, although with support groups, not co-ops. I could spin you a long, rilly, rilly sad story that would make both of us angry, but I won't. :ack2:

 

As a leader on a small regional level in a large state I saw lots of crud. :glare: Although I'm not opposed to starting a support group (not a co-op...a support group) based on certain guidelines (e.g., Christian, or yellow circles, or blue squares) I do have some thoughts about how that might be done without shooting down everyone else. Maybe someday it might matter what I think about that, lol, but right now I'm in "whatever" boat.

[Carol in Cal.]

This thread is awesome.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

I have never once seen a group of people here who get together, have a well-defined idea of what they want, and who then get attacked by strangers who want to join the group and completely change it, or make it adapt to their desires. That has just never happened in my experience.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you said except that I have seen something kind of like the quoted part. I started a literature group, and hosted it, and put out a long, warm email describing all of it thoroughly and inviting people to come to a constituting meeting if they were interested. I got a lot of responses and a lot of follow up questions--all well and good. Those who decided to participate made some thoughtful suggestions, and we all agreed on how this was going to proceed.

 

But one participant just argued and argued and argued, all year. She wanted us to add this and that, she wanted to change this and that, big additions, larger changes. She brought this stuff up over and over, and we would discuss it and conclude that things were pretty much how we wanted them, but that she was welcome to add those things that she felt were missing in another venue and see if anyone wanted to join her. She never did. She never started anything, or contributed anything.

 

Looking back on it, it's hard to believe that we spent so much time on this over the course of the year. And, really, bottom line, it was a stranger trying to come in and change everything. And frankly, trying to change it every single time we met or talked. At some point I would think she would have accepted the fact that no one wanted else wanted to follow her ideas, but she seemed to think that if we all just UNDERSTOOD them, we would all agree that they were superior. So we had to talk about them. Over and over. (We understood them just fine, BTW. We just didn't want to DO them, for various reasons.)

Edited July 15, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[SailorMom]

Thinking out loud here-- I'm only a homeschool mom for a few more weeks before DD goes off to college...but I have been a part of a few co-ops... good and bad in my 12+ years of homeschooling.

 

***

3 circles meet at the park. They are all homeschool families and all love the color yellow--in fact yellow is a VERY important color to them. They decide to get together regularly and pool resources to teach their children-- incorporating the yellow they love so much into all subjects. The group is open to other circle families joining-as long as they love yellow too. Yellow is that important to them.

 

One circle family is very interested in joining but they are not yellow only circles. This family is orange--it has some yellow but it also incorporates red too.

 

A second circle family also wants to join. They do not like yellow--they are purple. They want to join for purely educational reasons--and they don't see how yellow has anything to do with education.

 

The original yellow circles soon find their little group at the center of a major debate. If they do not allow the other colors of circles to join them they will be called 'snobby', 'rude' and 'intolerant'. If they allow the orange circles and the purple circles to join their group then they would be compromising their dedication to yellow and will have to stop the incorporation of yellow in their classes (so they will not offend the other colors). This seems like a 'fair' solution to the orange and purple families... but it is not what brought the original group together.

 

The love of yellow is what brought the group together and their strong desire to have yellow be a part of their whole lives--even in the education of their children...to them, yellow is not something that should be loved in secret.

***

 

I do not see anything wrong with the yellow circles having their own homeschool group even though I am a blue square.

 

It is a great analogy and I have no problem with private groups having an SoF.... the problem we had is that, without asking all the members, our old group changed and folded in under a group after we had been with them for almost 3 years. All of my kids' friends were there. We, and a few other families, were no longer allowed to let our kids go to parties and get togethers with their friends with this group. My sons were 11 and 12 at the time - they were very upset.

I wasn't as bothered by the co-op classes (they started having a co-op every week after it changed), it was the social aspects, the group parties, end of the year pool parties, science lab days,etc.

[74Heaven]

Exactly how exclusive/inclusive both Jesus and Christianity itself is would make an interesting discussion .... For another thread. ;)

 

I agree with Heather in NC. The Bible contains hundreds of verses that we would say are "exclusivity":

"be innocent regarding evil, and wise concerning good."

"bad company corrupts good character".

"not associating with the immoral brother"

"a severe punishment to the one who leads a child astray" (away from faith)

 

Yes, Jesus was also "inclusive". Tax collectors, sinners, lepers, etc. But he was inclusive to *love and instruct/convert*. He didn't go to the Garden of Gethsemane with the unbelievers; he didn't go out to fish with them, he didn't go out into the boat to get away from the crowd with unbelievers. The disciples were Jesus' students and his closest friends. This was an extremely inclusive group - and you had to profess faith to belong.

 

The Yellows can be *exclusive* in their group activities and still be *inclusive* in every other area of their lives.

 

LisaJ,

[Carol in Cal.]

It's true that Jesus was not all about inclusion in every venue, but He also didn't form groups that had a broad label and then excluded according to a narrower description.

[mommaduck]

nm