VBS and preaching salvation cc

[Cheryl in NM]

Actually I read her post several times. Perhaps you and I were thinking of different parts of her post in regards to your response. I thought you were saying that if she read the Bible, she would know that it's true, but maybe I misunderstood you. :)

 

The gospel of the Bible is very clear. I paraphrased it and then said it was true. Albeto bolded that I said it was true. That's what I was responding to. We can argue all day about things in the Bible that are unclear, but it says a some things that leave no room for interpretation.

 

No hard feelings. :) This is one of those tough subjects to discuss, anywhere, least of all a message board when you can't see the person face/body language or hear their voice.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The gospel of the Bible is very clear. I paraphrased it and then said it was true. Albeto bolded that I said it was true. That's what I was responding to. We can argue all day about things in the Bible that are unclear, but it says a some things that leave no room for interpretation.

 

No hard feelings. :) This is one of those tough subjects to discuss, anywhere, least of all a message board when you can't see the person face/body language or hear their voice.

No worries. :)

[albeto]

Your first "sentence" is not complete. I don't understand what you are saying.

 

Sorry. Try this: Only those who believe the Jesus Story...will, one day, walk with Him again.

 

God didn't make anyone bad. He created us in His image. Adam and Eve caused the fall of man, making Jesus sacrifice necessary. Maybe you should research your position a bit more.

 

Surely a god who can create a woman out of a man's rib can create a system whereby the children of Adam and Eve would not be responsible for the "sin" of their parents.

 

I am one of the ones that spoke out against preaching to children in the way that was preached to the OP's children. It is scary, especially if you leave out the love of God.

 

I happen to think it's pretty scary even with the love of God left in it. The fundamental premise is still there, even if the focus has been shifted. When I was a kid, vbs was singing songs like "Father Abraham Had Many Sons" and making cut out Noah's Arks and clay ash-trays.

[amey311]

I haven't clicked your link.

I really disagree. I have never heard anyone tell a child what the alternative to salvation is. Only what salvation is.

My children have both come to me ASKING how they can be with God when they die. I explained it to them and they asked if they could ask God to forgive them of any bad things they've done, ask Him to help them to be good, and thank Him for Jesus' sacrifice for them. I think that was their profession of faith in whatever way a 4 and 5 year old can understand it. After that time they loved telling other people about Jesus and how they told God they want to follow Him forever.

 

Well, my neighbor (or their church) surely did tell their 8 year old son what would happen if you didn't believe. Since W proceeded to tell my 8 year old (at the time) that Thing 1 was going to "Burn in a lake of fire" when he died because Thing 1 didn't have Jesus in his heart. W WASN'T going to burn in a lake of fire because he DID have Jesus in his heart.

 

That was several weeks after I outed myself as agnostic to the neighbor. We'd been very neighborly with them for over a year (with our boys playing together every weekend and many days after school).

 

I had to quickly redirect that conversation (on the ride to the zoo) because I found it incredibly inappropriate. I would certainly never consider telling (or encouraging my children to tell) children that we think there's a chance their "god" is imaginary - like Santa.

 

~~~~

That said, I went to VBS at my local United Methodist church (infant baptism) growing up and don't remember ANYTHING about being "saved" or "reborn." And certainly nothing on the scale of that "Jesus Camp" movie that I'm sure is inspiring for many of you.

[Cheryl in NM]

Sorry. Try this: Only those who believe the Jesus Story...will, one day, walk with Him again.

 

Okay, thanks. See, I believe the God loves us all, even though who don't believe in him. Every single human on earth has the opportunity to walk with God in the Garden of Eden. It is up to each person to decide, God has done what he can.

 

Surely a god who can create a woman out of a man's rib can create a system whereby the children of Adam and Eve would not be responsible for the "sin" of their parents.

 

I agree with you, but God set parameters that he would stay out of it and give us free will so that we could decide if we wanted to be with him. It is because of that free will that God must allow us to suffer the natural consequences of our actions. Otherwise, it would still just be Adam and Eve with God in the Garden of Eden.

 

]I happen to think it's pretty scary even with the love of God left in it. The fundamental premise is still there' date=' even if the focus has been shifted. [/b']When I was a kid, vbs was singing songs like "Father Abraham Had Many Sons" and making cut out Noah's Arks and clay ash-trays.

 

See, this is where we differ. If is the shift of focus that helps you gain the understanding of what the gospel actually teaches. At least, that's my opinion and I'm not trying to persuade you, I'm just explaining my viewpoint.

 

I agree with you on what VBS was when I was a kid as well. The Bible instructs us to teach each person at their level of understanding.

[Cheryl in NM]

Well, my neighbor (or their church) surely did tell their 8 year old son what would happen if you didn't believe. Since W proceeded to tell my 8 year old (at the time) that Thing 1 was going to "Burn in a lake of fire" when he died because Thing 1 didn't have Jesus in his heart. W WASN'T going to burn in a lake of fire because he DID have Jesus in his heart.

 

That was several weeks after I outed myself as agnostic to the neighbor. We'd been very neighborly with them for over a year (with our boys playing together every weekend and many days after school).

 

I had to quickly redirect that conversation (on the ride to the zoo) because I found it incredibly inappropriate. I would certainly never consider telling (or encouraging my children to tell) children that we think there's a chance their "god" is imaginary - like Santa.

 

~~~~

That said, I went to VBS at my local United Methodist church (infant baptism) growing up and don't remember ANYTHING about being "saved" or "reborn." And certainly nothing on the scale of that "Jesus Camp" movie that I'm sure is inspiring for many of you.

 

I am so sorry that happened to your son. :grouphug: So many Christians miss the part of the Bible that says to love your neighbor (figuratively and literally in this case!). I'm afraid that it is over-zealous Christians that are chasing people from Christianity. That is exactly why I read the Bible to make my own determination.

 

My neighbor told me we would go to hell because we owned the movie "The Crow." :001_huh: Yes, this is the same man threatening our animals. He insists that he will get Dh to go to church by setting a Christian example for him. Ironically, Dh exemplifies Christs teachings just fine even though he doesn't attend church.

[elizabeth]

I do. I think the message to a child that they're unworthy and in danger until they ask forgiveness for something they've no culpability with is mean, to put it lightly.

.

 

I agree with you. It is IMHO a cruel perspective and one that I have rejected wholeheartedly. To each his or her own .

[amey311]

The mom in this case was struggling with a pretty strong addiction and I never mentioned it to her figuring she didn't need another thing on her plate.

 

I still felt a little :glare:

 

I had some really petty thoughts about it, especially when she told me she wasn't going to church because she didn't think her god would want her there while she was struggling with this "demon" so much and letting "him" win. I comforted her - I assured her that yes - god did want her in church and that it probably would be a huge comfort to her.

 

And still thinking "you think my kid is going to burn in a lake of fire???" Grrr.

 

They've since moved.

[Rosy]

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'. They even go so far as to have a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved. I was a little dissapointed to hear this when I came to pick up my dc.

 

As someone who has taught Sunday School for years and is currently preparing to teach the Bible lesson at VBS, this is exactly what I do, minus the prayer time and call to conversion. However, I certainly wouldn't discourage a child who wanted to respond to a gospel presentation, I would make sure to involve the parents as much as possible. I send my kids to Sunday School and VBS hoping for God to work through the teachers to reach my kids...we spend a lot of time talking about and studying the Bible, but a different teacher with a different perspective might be able to reach my kids differently than I can and do.

 

I would certainly not send my kids to VBS if I didn't want another adult interfering in my kids' spiritual lives. Churches don't spend all that time and money to be entertaining--they want to reach kids with the love of God. Different churches will approach this differently, but that is the goal of VBS. Some churches will avoid the issue of sin, some will hit it head-on. Personally I don't know how to tell someone they need God's love without addressing their sinful nature. Why do I need God's love if I'm not a sinner? Many people who don't know God do very well in this life. I do think most calls to conversion don't necessarily indicate a genuine conversion and I will never give someone assurance of salvation because they "prayed the prayer", but I do believe that a young child can experience a genuine conversion and I also believe that a teen or an adult might remember something that they heard as a child and have it "take root" years later.

 

 

My belief is that Jesus accepts all children into his kingdom whether they are saved or not. That seems to be the going theme of this VBS, that you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdom. My dc have had a great time and I know people at this church. I'm just not sure this should be something preached over and over to children. I don't know though. Would this be something common at VBS's? The previous VBS my dc attended wasn't so crazy about 'accept Jesus and you will go to heaven one day' I think this is something better reserved for when children are older and can really understand the depth of that decision. My ds7 even told me that there was a stain on his heart and that when he accepted Jesus it was wiped away. What are your thoughs?

 

My thought is that children are covered up to a certain point, and I don't know when that point is. I've heard up to 20, but since I don't know, and since my kids (Lord willing) will live to adulthood, I want them to have a full and complete understanding of God's Word. I definitely take a gentler approach with my gospel presentations when they're young, but we do talk about the fact that sin and repentance. I guess you could say I take somewhat of a trivium approach...in 1st-4th grades and younger, it's all about the stories. After that, we spend progressively more time applying logic and reason, addressing doctrinal issues, etc. I think what your 7 year old expressed is exactly what I would want to hear from a child that age, and I would be encouraging him like crazy that he is learning and accepting truth from God's Word.

 

 

Why teach a child they're not acceptable? Why teach a child they're corrupted? Why not teach a child they're beautiful and wonderful in every way and that in their existence life has meaning and hope?

 

Surely churches teach this, even in vacation bible school?

 

We teach a child they're corrupted because they are corrupted. You've never seen a child throw a fit simply because they didn't get what they wanted? Your kids naturally have a desire to eat healthy food, do extra schoolwork and brush their teeth without being reminded? Children are beautiful and wonderful, but they are not perfect, and their sin is what separates them from God. While I believe that God covers their sin until a certain point of maturity, I don't feel that I am doing my kids any favors by teaching them that the bad things they do ultimately do not come from within them. My kids know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their lives have meaning and hope because of what Jesus Christ did for them, they know that God accepts them even when they do bad things, even though He doesn't have to, and they know that even though their sin has separated them from God, there is Someone who loves them so much, even more than Mommy and Daddy, that they can be forgiven and not live with the belief that they are "bad people".

[silliness7]

Rather than getting their children to pray "the sinner's prayer" or enticing them into a superficial response, parents must faithfully, patiently, and thoroughly teach them the gospel and diligently pray for their salvation, always bearing in mind that God is the One who save. There is no need to pressure or coerce a confession from the mouth of a child, for genuince repentance will bring forth its own confession as the Lord opens the heart in response to the gospel. And as time goes by, it in never right to reinforce to the child that a childhood prayer is evidence of salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I Love, Love, Love This!!!

[Cheryl in NM]

We teach a child they're corrupted because they are corrupted. You've never seen a child throw a fit simply because they didn't get what they wanted? Your kids naturally have a desire to eat healthy food, do extra schoolwork and brush their teeth without being reminded? Children are beautiful and wonderful, but they are not perfect, and their sin is what separates them from God. While I believe that God covers their sin until a certain point of maturity, I don't feel that I am doing my kids any favors by teaching them that the bad things they do ultimately do not come from within them. My kids know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their lives have meaning and hope because of what Jesus Christ did for them, they know that God accepts them even when they do bad things, even though He doesn't have to, and they know that even though their sin has separated them from God, there is Someone who loves them so much, even more than Mommy and Daddy, that they can be forgiven and not live with the belief that they are "bad people".

 

Thank you! This is beautiful!

[Plucky]

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'. They even go so far as to have a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved. I was a little dissapointed to hear this when I came to pick up my dc. My belief is that Jesus accepts all children into his kingdom whether they are saved or not. That seems to be the going theme of this VBS, that you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdon. My dc have had a great time and I know people at this church. I'm just not sure this should be something preached over and over to children. I don't know though. Would this be something common at VBS's? The previous VBS my dc attended wasn't so crazy about 'accept Jesus and you will go to heaven one day' I think this is something better reserved for when children are older and can really understand the depth of that decision. My ds7 even told me that there was a stain on his heart and that when he accepted Jesus it was wiped away. What are your thoughs?

 

You should always, always understand the policies and beliefs of any organization you drop your kids off. I only let my kids go to VBS programs of groups I know and approve.

[Homemaker]

I disagree. I belong to the church of Christ and we would never teach as she has described. We do teach what we believe are the steps to salvation, but not to very young children as we don't believe they have reached the age of accountability yet. It definately isn't forced like that. At most you will hear the preacher explain salvation and invite anyone who wants to study more or to be baptized to either come forward or talk with someone after church. Usually our VBS topics are the power of God, or special studies of special Bible Stories, and so on.

 

I am church of Christ too!

[Impish]

If you are sending your child to VBS you are looking for religious instruction. If you are looking for free daycare, well, then, you have to accept what you get.

:iagree:

[Carrie75]

No kidding. It always surprises me when people are upset that a church preaches salvation at VBS.

 

Yep. This. There are a lot of camps out there...

[Kertie]

It's mean because for Jesus to be of value, the child must need something and not have it first. The premise of the Jesus story is that the child needs to be accepted. As is, the child is not acceptable. The child is corrupt and even GodWhoLoves can't be with/see that child but only her corruption. Her "sin." The child, through no fault of their own, has been found guilty and only through believing the Jesus story can the child gain acceptance.

 

Why teach a child they're not acceptable? Why teach a child they're corrupted? Why not teach a child they're beautiful and wonderful in every way and that in their existence life has meaning and hope?

 

Surely churches teach this, even in vacation bible school?

 

This really piques my curiosity. Even a small child knows that when they throw food, Mommy isn't happy. The child knows that it's the ACTION Mommy is unhappy about, NOT that the child is "unacceptable." I don't get why a child can't be taught they're wonderful AND have the obvious-to-them fact that they choose to do wrong things addressed. We all know that a temper-tantrum-throwing child is NOT a thing of wonder, so why pretend they don't have sin??? The child is not surprised by it.

 

But then, I'm the mom that doesn't think kids should be allowed to throw food...so I'm probably weird, anyway.:D

[TravelingChris]

My middle told me she accepted Christ lots of times, she thinks, because she was never sure she had done it right. Also at about age four, she was scared of having Jesus in her heart because she understood it literally like I think some children do. I think salvation messages are better left for at least six year olds and up. Does it mean youngers can't become Christians? No, but many probably don't really get it and youngsters at that age are too easily manipulated.

 

Oh and I am usually associated with mainline denominiations- PCA, UM, PC-USa, etc. None had a heavy salvation message like some have described but all had mentions of accepting Christ, that sort of thing. All the curriculum I have seen= Groups VBS, Lifeway, others, all have some type of salvation message = not a hellfire type, but some offer to accept Jesus or follow Jesus or something like that.

[JudyJudyJudy]

While I agree that parents should know a church's doctrine before allowing their children to attend VBS there, it's not always so simple. Churches around here (mostly Southern Baptist) encourage kids to go to VBS, and they talk about how much fun they'll have. The kids then beg their parents to go, and their parents, though not overly religious, believe in God and imagine their kids singing a few "Jesus Loves Me"–type songs and then playing games and doing arts and crafts. I truly see some churches as being deceitful in the way they encourage kids to attend VBS.

[Cheryl in NM]

While I agree that parents should know a church's doctrine before allowing their children to attend VBS there, it's not always so simple. Churches around here (mostly Southern Baptist) encourage kids to go to VBS, and they talk about how much fun they'll have. The kids then beg their parents to go, and their parents, though not overly religious, believe in God and imagine their kids singing a few "Jesus Loves Me"–type songs and then playing games and doing arts and crafts. I truly see some churches as being deceitful in the way they encourage kids to attend VBS.

 

I see this as well and it saddens me.

[TracieT]

Well, my neighbor (or their church) surely did tell their 8 year old son what would happen if you didn't believe. Since W proceeded to tell my 8 year old (at the time) that Thing 1 was going to "Burn in a lake of fire" when he died because Thing 1 didn't have Jesus in his heart. W WASN'T going to burn in a lake of fire because he DID have Jesus in his heart.

 

That was several weeks after I outed myself as agnostic to the neighbor. We'd been very neighborly with them for over a year (with our boys playing together every weekend and many days after school).

 

I had to quickly redirect that conversation (on the ride to the zoo) because I found it incredibly inappropriate. I would certainly never consider telling (or encouraging my children to tell) children that we think there's a chance their "god" is imaginary - like Santa.

 

~~~~

That said, I went to VBS at my local United Methodist church (infant baptism) growing up and don't remember ANYTHING about being "saved" or "reborn." And certainly nothing on the scale of that "Jesus Camp" movie that I'm sure is inspiring for many of you.

 

I honestly don't think my kids have ever heard the word "Hell" nor do they know what we believe happens to a person who does not accept Christ. I have no doubt they will one day ask, but I'll just handle it at that time. I don't want them following God out of fear of the alternative. I have worked with kids in church (different churches) for at least 11 years and have never heard Hell talked about with children. I've never heard an 8 year old speak like that. :( I know there are "fire and brimstone" type churches out there, I've just never witnessed it.

[Katiebug_1976]

This is why it is really hard for us to find a decent VBS for our kids to go to. We don't believe in pushing children into a false salvation. In my opinion salvation will happen when God does a work in your childs heart (whether it be at age or 6 or not until 45). VBS should be a fun time of learning about Jesus, but your child should not be pushed into "the sinners prayer." This is a HUGE pet peeve for mine!

[mom4him]

I would absolutely expect that at a vacation *Bible* school.

:iagree: I don't know the way it was presented but I would expect no less from a VBS. It would be for the teaching of the Bible that I would send my dc.

[Happy2BaMom]

The heart of the Christian message (in most churches) is that you have to ask forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus into your heart (as spelled out and defined by that church in its statement of beliefs, faith, whatever) in order to be saved. Otherwise you go to hell.

 

Some mainline churches have/are a softer sell on that message, but the firm belief in a heaven/hell duality is the underpinning that separates Christians from non-Christians (in the eyes of most Christians). Liberal Christians don't always believe in a fixed duality, but they usually aren't considered true Christians by a lot of conservative Christian theologians.

 

Some VBS programs will have a different emphasis than the fire-and-brimstone, but the bottom line remains the same.

 

I guess I'm just saying you should be prepared / not be surprised at your kids getting what the main message is.

 

From me, who has long been a Christian but who is considering abandoning the church because I am no longer a dualist (and who no longer sends my kids to VBS).

[milovany]

I don't know the way it was presented but I would expect no less from a VBS. It would be for the teaching of the Bible that I would send my dc.

 

The thing is there are a lot of Christian faith traditions that don't think the Bible teaches a "just believe in Jesus and prayer a prayer of salvation to be saved" view of salvation.

 

The heart of the Christian message (in most churches) is that you have to ask forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus into your heart (as spelled out and defined by that church in its statement of beliefs, faith, whatever) in order to be saved. Otherwise you go to hell.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this, although I do think it's true of the general, evangelical, Protestant, non-liturgical church in America. But worldwide, I don't believe this one-time "ask Christ into your heart" event type of salvation is how most Christians view being saved.

Edited July 2, 2011 by milovaný

[Mommy22alyns]

I would totally expect that from a VBS. I believe in the age of accountability, though I couldn't tell you exactly when I believe that is. Rebecca went forward to pray last year and I hope Sylvia chooses to do so this year.

[Cheryl in NM]

The heart of the Christian message (in most churches) is that you have to ask forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus into your heart (as spelled out and defined by that church in its statement of beliefs, faith, whatever) in order to be saved. Otherwise you go to hell.

 

Some mainline churches have/are a softer sell on that message, but the firm belief in a heaven/hell duality is the underpinning that separates Christians from non-Christians (in the eyes of most Christians). Liberal Christians don't always believe in a fixed duality, but they usually aren't considered true Christians by a lot of conservative Christian theologians.

 

Some VBS programs will have a different emphasis than the fire-and-brimstone, but the bottom line remains the same.

 

I guess I'm just saying you should be prepared / not be surprised at your kids getting what the main message is.

 

From me, who has long been a Christian but who is considering abandoning the church because I am no longer a dualist (and who no longer sends my kids to VBS).

 

I think you are confusing the Old and New Testaments. Once Jesus came all that was required was belief in him for salvation.

 

From a Lutheran...

[boscopup]

I am church of Christ too!

 

Another one here! :seeya: Definitely no "sinner's prayer" in the church of Christ.

 

I would totally expect the OP's experience to happen at a southern baptist church in my area, as that's their beliefs. It's pretty common knowledge around here.

 

Related to this, I have a friend who was Catholic when she was working, and one day a couple of her co-workers were having Bible study with her, and they convinced her to say the "sinner's prayer". She thought she was just praying in general. Her co-workers then started going to other baptist co-workers and saying that my friend had just been saved. My friend was thinking "Wait! What? What just happened?!?" She was still very much Catholic at the time and had no clue why they were saying she was "saved" for saying this prayer.

[AvasMom]

I'm Pentecostal and we don't believe the "just say the sinner's prayer" message is complete. If I believed that all that was involved with salvation was repeating a prayer than in this situation I would be really concerned that a child would just say it because they were being pressured into it. If sincerity is essential then it would concern me. I agree that most Christian VBSs will teach their salvation message and that should be expected but I worry that their delivery is way off for this age group.

[Mosaicmind]

I don't see the problem. We are all born with a sin nature and we all need a Savior. If you are to enter the Kingdom of God you have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness of your sins. It is much easier to accept this as a child then to accept it as a young person or adult; then all of our reasoning comes into play and we don't see things with a childlike heart. That's why Jesus said that we need to accept the Lord as a child, without all the inhibitions that adulthood brings. All of my children accepted Jesus into their hearts by the age of ten, it was such a natural easy thing for them to do. I was so glad.

[Soror]

I have Church of Christ friends and am interested to find out that they do not do the 'sinners prayer.' All the protestant churches I had experience with did, so I just expected it. I do get the impression that they don't think we are real Christians, but they have at least finally stopped asking me to go to church with them.

[Stellalarella]

Well, regardless of religious beliefs here are my top three good reasons not to attend VBS:

1) kids come home with silly crafts that I will just end up taking to the trash (usually within minutes, thank you). I cringe when I think about the waste. I hate FOAM visors, FOAM door hangers, bleh!!

2) the unhappy torment of the drop-off, pick-up line; not to mention the fact that by the time Mom the Chauffeur drops off the kids and drives all the way back home, it's pretty much time to get back in the car and go get the kids

3) cookies containing hydrogenated vegetable oils

oh, yes, and don't forget reason number 4!!

 

THE OBLIGATORY HOT AND CROWDED, TOO LONG AND MISERABLE, FRIDAY NIGHT music program.

 

Some dear poster referred to children as innocent. My dc are now asleep and they do look beautifully innocent. But let me tell ya, we had a hard day around here and I can assure you, they are not innocent. And since I was so grouchy, I'm not innocent either.

 

Perhaps my family would have all had a better day if I had sent them to VBS. :lol:

[Cheryl in NM]

I have Church of Christ friends and am interested to find out that they do not do the 'sinners prayer.' All the protestant churches I had experience with did, so I just expected it. I do get the impression that they don't think we are real Christians, but they have at least finally stopped asking me to go to church with them.

 

Lutherans don't believe in the sinner's prayer.

 

There are 3 divisions of Christianity: Catholic, Orthodox & Protestant. Lutheran's are Protestant - no sinner's prayer.

[angela in ohio]

I would absolutely expect that at a vacation *Bible* school.

 

:iagree:

[Plucky]

Well, regardless of religious beliefs here are my top three good reasons not to attend VBS:

1) kids come home with silly crafts that I will just end up taking to the trash (usually within minutes, thank you). I cringe when I think about the waste. I hate FOAM visors, FOAM door hangers, bleh!!

2) the unhappy torment of the drop-off, pick-up line; not to mention the fact that by the time Mom the Chauffeur drops off the kids and drives all the way back home, it's pretty much time to get back in the car and go get the kids

3) cookies containing hydrogenated vegetable oils

oh, yes, and don't forget reason number 4!!

 

THE OBLIGATORY HOT AND CROWDED, TOO LONG AND MISERABLE, FRIDAY NIGHT music program.

 

Some dear poster referred to children as innocent. My dc are now asleep and they do look beautifully innocent. But let me tell ya, we had a hard day around here and I can assure you, they are not innocent. And since I was so grouchy, I'm not innocent either.

 

Perhaps my family would have all had a better day if I had sent them to VBS. :lol:

 

Isn't that the truth! My older kids work at our VBS. Oh the stories we could tell. My dd was leading craft and they were doing some small thing. When they finished a 6-year old boy said, "It's time for craft!"

 

She told him,"That was the craft."

 

He scrunched his face up and really wailed! LOL They tried to distract him with a snack. :lol:

[Soror]

Lutherans don't believe in the sinner's prayer.

 

There are 3 divisions of Christianity: Catholic, Orthodox & Protestant. Lutheran's are Protestant - no sinner's prayer.

 

I was just referring to those around here, not many Lutherans around here. Around here we have 1st, 2nd and 3rd Baptist and lots of Pentecostals. Mostly I am familiar with Baptist from my area, that was predominant in our area- or at least it seemed so growing up- I'm not sure the actual numbers. I never met a Lutheran until adulthood, same with Mormons.

[Dobela]

I have Church of Christ friends and am interested to find out that they do not do the 'sinners prayer.' All the protestant churches I had experience with did, so I just expected it. I do get the impression that they don't think we are real Christians, but they have at least finally stopped asking me to go to church with them.

Well, look for the Sinner's Prayer in the Bible. You won't find it anywhere. It doesn't exist in the Bible. That is one of the reasons why the church of Christ (and others) don't believe it is how one is saved.

[TracyR]

I would expect it, thus why we don't do Protestant VBS.

 

Not all Protestant faiths preach this at VBS. I'll admit when my oldest was little this was the theme of the VBS's in our town. But now I've noticed a huge slant towards just learning about God, having fun while doing it and learning that God loves them.

 

One thing I have done is if my girls have not attended a VBS at that church before I usually stay and see what goes on first.

I've done it for 13yrs. LOL So I know where to let my girls go and where to not send them.

Usually its at the end of the evening when the preaching is usually done so I would come in right before the end and sit in and see what they did and what was being said. I haven't always been Catholic either. But to me, when being Protestant I didn't believe that young children should be told that. Its a concept they do NOT understand before the age of at least 7 or 8.

[Soror]

Well, I am just not paranoid of a sinner's prayer but also the idea that Catholics are not Christians. My one friend who is former Catholic now CoC made a comment once about how she was such a new Christian ie when she was Catholic she wasn't a Christian. I do not trust any other groups not to make similiar comments or plant little seeds contrary to our faith, it isn't worth the risk to me. Even if it isn't intentional I don't want it happening.

[Melissa in Australia]

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'. They even go so far as to have a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved. I was a little dissapointed to hear this when I came to pick up my dc. My belief is that Jesus accepts all children into his kingdom whether they are saved or not. That seems to be the going theme of this VBS, that you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdon. My dc have had a great time and I know people at this church. I'm just not sure this should be something preached over and over to children. I don't know though. Would this be something common at VBS's? The previous VBS my dc attended wasn't so crazy about 'accept Jesus and you will go to heaven one day' I think this is something better reserved for when children are older and can really understand the depth of that decision. My ds7 even told me that there was a stain on his heart and that when he accepted Jesus it was wiped away. What are your thoughs?

 

Sounds like brainwashing to me

[MariannNOVA]

I would absolutely expect that at a vacation *Bible* school.

 

 

I agree. DD32 and DD31 attended VBS all the time when they were 7 y/o, 8 y/o, and older -- it was always part of vacation *Bible* school.

[TracyR]

Well, I am just not paranoid of a sinner's prayer but also the idea that Catholics are not Christians. My one friend who is former Catholic now CoC made a comment once about how she was such a new Christian ie when she was Catholic she wasn't a Christian. I do not trust any other groups not to make similiar comments or plant little seeds contrary to our faith, it isn't worth the risk to me. Even if it isn't intentional I don't want it happening.

 

I hear ya. Its sad to see how many Catholics truly do not understand the faith at all. I've been surprised to hear from those who were former Catholics tell me how they would worship Mary, or weren't really Christians because Catholics didn't have alter calls ( which , well we do every time we receive Communion), and I could go on and on,. When in reality they were not properly Catechized to begin with. Hate to put others down but Catholics are Christians :>) We believe in God and Salvation just as all the other Christian faiths do :>)

But I do understand what you are saying though. My girls have already heard that Catholics worship Mary and other such things. They come to me and we discuss about how what that person said was wrong, and some people believe in getting to Heaven in different ways, but we don't believe that sort of thing. Its really difficult as we only have two small Catholic churches in our town and a Protestant church on every block corner to avoid all of the negative comments made.

[fhjmom]

I would expect that at our church...it isn't "drilled" but lovingly shared. It's the gospel. And, our church is very open about the fact that VBS is a huge witnessing opportunity! Our church members invite friends, family, etc...and the very reason we have these things is to share the gospel. At our VBS this year, there were almost 500 children and 11 salvations...

 

I think if I were going to take my children to VBS at a church that was not our own, I would want to know what was being taught...but if, for instance, I knew they were using the Lifeway VBS package - this year, the Big Apple, I would know that salvation was the goal...

 

I guess part of me is surprised that people take their children to VBS and DON'T expect this?! I guess it is just a different denomination thing...but that just shows how common it is here, especially where we are in the Bible Belt.

:iagree:This exactly; except the numbers at our VBS were over 600 and 27 salvations. I do not think our VBS staff pushes but instead presents the step to salvation in a way a child can understand. I am Baptist and I do believe that younger children are assured a place in heaven, but once they reach the age of accountability, they must choose for themselves. That age varies from person to person, but I would think many children attending VBS have the capacity for understanding.

[mommaduck]

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'. They even go so far as to have a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved. I was a little dissapointed to hear this when I came to pick up my dc. My belief is that Jesus accepts all children into his kingdom whether they are saved or not. That seems to be the going theme of this VBS, that you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdon. My dc have had a great time and I know people at this church. I'm just not sure this should be something preached over and over to children. I don't know though. Would this be something common at VBS's? The previous VBS my dc attended wasn't so crazy about 'accept Jesus and you will go to heaven one day' I think this is something better reserved for when children are older and can really understand the depth of that decision. My ds7 even told me that there was a stain on his heart and that when he accepted Jesus it was wiped away. What are your thoughs?

 

It depends on the church. I know certain churches really push the Sinner's Prayer (aka accepting Jesus into your heart). If you don't agree with that kind of teaching, then you should reconsider sending them. I was put in that kind of church as a kid, my parents disagreed, and I became pretty judgemental of them as I grew up.

[Ellesmere]

 

Edited April 20, 2014 by CaladwenEleniel

[Nestof3]

It sounds like every VBS I was ever in growing up.

[Cheryl in NM]

We all brainwash our children every single day. Brainwashing is just teaching someone to believe like you do. Each church believes it's the "right" church and so wants everyone to believe that way. I think there are very few that have truly evil motivations.

 

I am really amazed at how many presumptions posters on this thread have made. I am amazed at how many thought they knew about XYZ religion and were set straight by an actual member of that faith. We research our curriculum so well, but when it comes something monumental....

[mom2denj]

:iagree:

Especially if that is what the church believes. Whether you believe it or not should probably influence whether you send your kids to their VBS, not whether or not they should teach what they do.

:iagree:

[roxanne23]

.

Edited January 4, 2023 by roxanne23

[albeto]

We all brainwash our children every single day.

 

Certainly not!

 

Brainwashing is just teaching someone to believe like you do.

 

No, teaching someone what you believe is teaching. Coupling lessons with emotional manipulation such as fear and terror by threatening an eternity of torment for not believing, equating doubt with non belief or equating reason with doubt are coercive tactics designed to dissuade the child from allowing his or her natural curiosity to develop. Instead of teaching and allowing for one to process information and accept or reject it based on the merits of the belief, this kind of emotional terrorism as described in the OP functions to scare a child for life and fear motivates the belief. That's brainwashing, not teaching. It's manipulative, and cruel and abusive and if it were any other community, say an art camp or music camp, this kind of thing wouldn't be tolerated for a single day. If it were the tactics used in a Muslim Day Camp, the media would be all over it.

 

Each church believes it's the "right" church and so wants everyone to believe that way. I think there are very few that have truly evil motivations.

 

Which ought to inspire a child to think for a moment that if every church believes they're the "right" one, and to pull out for a second and assume every religion thinks they're the "right" one, then what does *this* church have over any other? The only thing they have is a terrified, captive, elementary school aged audience. For all the talk about the bible being "clear," it's far from clear as any rudimentary exploration into the different ways the theology can be dissected and reinterpreted will illustrate.

 

I am really amazed at how many presumptions posters on this thread have made. I am amazed at how many thought they knew about XYZ religion and were set straight by an actual member of that faith. We research our curriculum so well, but when it comes something monumental....

 

Take away your assumptions and your beliefs for a moment and think about what you "know" about your religion and see how many presumptions stand as fact.

[MrsBasil]

While I agree that parents should know a church's doctrine before allowing their children to attend VBS there, it's not always so simple. Churches around here (mostly Southern Baptist) encourage kids to go to VBS, and they talk about how much fun they'll have. The kids then beg their parents to go, and their parents, though not overly religious, believe in God and imagine their kids singing a few "Jesus Loves Me"–type songs and then playing games and doing arts and crafts. I truly see some churches as being deceitful in the way they encourage kids to attend VBS.

 

 

When I was a kid the neighbors invited us to VBS. My parents are not religious in the least.

Anyway the neighbor's mother assured my mom it was singing a few praise songs, a Bible reading, games, snacks, arts and crafts, and fun. It mostly was, but after the Bible reading was a real fire and brimstone sermon with encouragement (and pressure to the mind of my 8 year old self) to get saved in front of everyone.

 

I went up because I thought I had to. The preacher just kept going on and on and wouldn't stop until someone came up. The other kids were happy with me because that meant we finally got to go to snack time. :tongue_smilie:

 

My mother was quite annoyed and felt deceived. If she had known there was going to be sermons and teaching on doctrine, she never would have sent us. When you nice neighbor who is a church member "conveniently" leaves that out, what can you do?

 

We never went back to any VBS. Which was the probably right choice for our family. As for me now, I'm a Christian(not Protestant), but based on my experience there's no way I'd send my child to a VBS.