Mac users, help me solve this dispute with dd

[LittleIzumi]

I bought my first Mac in 1993 or 1994. I have had about twelve throughout the years. I currently have 2 desktops and a laptop. The only problem I have ever had (besides tech fever for the next model :001_smile:) is an electrical problem caused by an electrical surge during a storm (yes, it did have a surge protector but that did not help). We also lost 2 TVs during that storm, all had surge protectors.

 

I agree with your dd. We also have 2 PCs in the house and I never use them (dh does and my dd does only when forced to because a game will not play on her Mac). My husband has much more trouble with his PC but refuses to give them up.

 

The only Mac problem we ever had was also an electrical surge. It looks like ours came through the phone line instead of through the surge protector, as it fried our modem and router, too. Now we have a surge protector that incorporates the phone line, and no problem with the iMac at all. We've had two iMacs (replacing the first that got fried, and even then kind of worked) and dh just got a MacBook for school. :D

[ocelotmom]

I think I understand what you're saying. But for the person who wants the smoother running system, who is not a programmer & who doesn't have the time or desire to learn to run command line driven Linux, wouldn't that make Mac the better choice?

 

There's absolutely no reason for a desktop user to use command-line Linux beyond personal preference - it has a graphical user interface, and that's the default for most desktop installs. I'd say it's basically on-par with OS X as far as casual user experience these days (though I haven't used OS X in about 4 years...).

 

Benefits: It's a way to get good, secure performance out of less expensive PC hardware. It's easy for a casual user to install and use at a basic level. There's lots and lots of legal, free software available for pretty much every purpose, and the OS itself is also free.

 

Drawbacks: A lot of the software available is... unpolished. A lot of mainstream software is available for Windows and OS X, but not for Linux (while there is some Windows compatibility stuff, it doesn't always work and can be difficult to configure). If there is a problem, you have to be willing to do your own troubleshooting unless you happen to know someone else who uses Linux - you can't just take it to the Genius Bar. A lot of problems are fairly easy and straightforward to fix, but require being able to use google to figure it out. Some hardware, especially cutting-edge stuff, may not be supported fully or at all.

 

I've used Linux for well over a decade, and you're not going to get me back to Windows. I think it's great, and does pretty much everything I need it to. But if you're not willing/able to do your own tech support, Apple is a better bet.

 

A lot of Linux distributions let you download a LiveCD, which lets you try out Linux without actually installing it (just download the CD image, burn it to a CD, stick it in the drive, and reboot the computer). http://www.ubuntu.com/ and http://www.linuxmint.com/ are two popular versions aimed at desktop users, if you're interested in finding out more.

[RobinF]

I wonder what kind of PCs people are buying here. I've had a Dell, Compaq, Toshiba, IBM and a few old clone and have never had a serious issue. The occasional optical drive failure but that's it.

 

The Dell is now almost 12 years old and was only just starting to show signs of a hard drive failure in the last year.

 

We have had HP, Dell, Compaq, Acer and one Toshiba, in one way or another they were all less than admirable. We made the mistake of buying 2 dell laptops for our church when we started up. Then less than a year later we bought a mac. Incredible difference. Yes the money was more but we have already blown through one of the dell laptops and the other one is on its last leg also.

[JMDRAD]

I crashed EVERY SINGLE computer we had until I got a Mac. I've had mine since '07 and have not had a single problem with it. My parents recently bought MacPros and they rave about how easy it is to work on. So, in my opinion, your dd wins. :lol:

[Ellesmere]

I've used Linux for well over a decade, and you're not going to get me back to Windows. I think it's great, and does pretty much everything I need it to. But if you're not willing/able to do your own tech support, Apple is a better bet.

 

.

nm

[kimnc]

I'm biased, been using Macs since college. I find them snappier than Windows and easier to navigate. When they came out with OS X, DH became a "convert" too. He has used just about every OS out there, and loves Snow Leopard. If you get a used machine, be sure it will run the latest OS. I think that would encompass anything with an Intel processor inside.

[PeterPan]

I understood perfectly. I wonder how awful a PC would be if the buyer upgraded components (especially RAM) until it was comparable (quality wise) to the mac? Might be an interesting experiment. Remove the most obvious handicaps from the PC and then compare.

 

 

I did. That's why I bought a mac. ;)

 

And my computer boots so astonishingly fast, um, I've never even timed it. You just blink and it's on. But I have an SSD.

[mcconnellboys]

They just aren't as susceptible to viruses, etc. as PC's. My son has one and they are definitely better, I think!

[parias1126]

Mac all the way! :)

[LoveBaby]

Yesterday my brother and his wife hosted a Mother's Day party. In the course of events I mentioned that their Mac (which had been my Mac, but was passed along to them 7 years ago) was getting a little "long in the tooth." They looked at me with a look of shock, like I was suggesting putting down the family pet or something.

 

I had purchased the Power Mac G4 in 2000. It is eleven years old. But they love it and are running OS X 10 Leopard. They seem "hurt" that I would even suggest a new computer might be in order :lol:

 

Bill

:lol::lol:

 

The only way I would get rid of my MAC...is if I could purchase a 17" macbook pro running OS X Lion this summer, but then I'd give this beauty to the kiddo's.

[LidiyaDawn]

I wonder what kind of PCs people are buying here. I've had a Dell, Compaq, Toshiba, IBM and a few old clone and have never had a serious issue. The occasional optical drive failure but that's it.

 

The Dell is now almost 12 years old and was only just starting to show signs of a hard drive failure in the last year.

 

HP's. Never ever EVER again. :glare:

[4ofus]

We too switched from a PC to a Mac this time last year. Now we have 2 macs & an iPad (plus countless other peripherals!). We LOVE our Macs. Don't want to use anything else!

[Lolly]

I wonder what kind of PCs people are buying here. I've had a Dell, Compaq, Toshiba, IBM and a few old clone and have never had a serious issue. The occasional optical drive failure but that's it.

 

The Dell is now almost 12 years old and was only just starting to show signs of a hard drive failure in the last year.

 

My dh (and kids) have had Dell, Toshiba, HP, Compaq, and Lenovo(a?). They have ALL had problems. The Toshiba was the best of the bunch. Just a super-cheapo Walmart one. The Dell was the absolute worst. Worst customer service too. And, through all that, I've had two macs. My dd16a is using the first as her laptop. It did have to go in for refurbishing after 4 years. The disk thingy (see how knowledgable I am) and the internal recharging part needed to be replaced. I am on the second right now. It is about 3 years old and going strong. The PCs seem to last, hopefully, about 2 years with constant problems.

[Brown4girls]

We are an Apple Family! We have a Mac laptop, Mac desktop, three iphones, 4 ipods, and one ipad. LOVE LOVE LOVE them all!

 

Customer service can't be beat with Apple!

[1GirlTwinBoys]

We switched to Mac completely a year ago and won't ever go back to PC again. We have an iMac, MacBook Air, iPad, MacBook pro, and iPhones.:)

[Janie Grace]

Macs here. We will never ever go back.

[EppieJ]

So I'll throw in my two cents here. I've used both and much prefer the Mac.

 

That said, it can depend on what you want a computer for. PCs are good for spread-sheets and the like, but Macs are way better for the creative stuff. My experience is that PCs are way more prone to viruses and are just not as versatile as Macs.

 

As I sit here typing this post, the fact is not lost on me that my PC is in a corner gathering dust and not allowing me to access my files while I sit here with an old Mac laptop which is working fairly well even after a two-year drying out period after having a coke spilled into it.

[oldskool]

I love my Mac! Would never buy a PC again.

 

Lesley

[Word Nerd]

My DH has gone through three different PCs in the time I've had my one trusty iMac. My only problem with it is that its OS is becoming obsolete and I don't have enough memory to upgrade it. It works just fine; I just can't get the latest iTunes, etc.

 

I was mistaken! I can add more RAM and upgrade the OS, and it's on its way now.

[lakerks]

I switched from PC to Mac last summer, and if anything, I'd say I wish I'd done it sooner!

[StaceyinLA]

My pc repairman recommended I get one after losing everything on my hard drive for a second time due to viruses (while running anti-virus software).

 

I bought an eMac off eBay just to try out the system (easy as pie to learn; everything just made so much sense). My kids all had iBooks within a year of that.

 

Since then, I sold my eMac and bought a refurbed iMac (now about 5 years old), sold all the iBooks and bought the kids each MacBooks, and one a MacBook Pro.

 

We have had iPod minis, iPod videos, iPod Shuffles, iPod touches, iPhones, etc. (we are geeks for the latest and greatest Apple stuff). NEVER a problem in thousands and thousands of hours of use.

 

I am about to upgrade my computer to the new iMac (probably by summer), mainly for a DVD burner to burn videos of my grandkids. My present iMac will be for my kids to sync iPhones/iPads too.

 

At this point, we have eliminated a couple of laptops and will replace those with iPads. My kids want them for college because they are so portable, and they'll use the iMac at home.

 

We have the iMac, 6 iPhones, 3 laptops, and an iPad at this moment.

 

I will NEVER go back!!!

[mystika1]

Hi,

It depends on the operating system. I have used plenty of computers with xp/7 and macs and linux systems. I imagine I will get bashed for this but...oh well. I hate windows operating systems period. And honestly after running several different linux operating systems I am not all in love with macs because although they have a good product they are indeed way over priced. Linux is by far the best most stable system in my eyes..but only if you take the time or have the time to learn it. People think of linux as a command line only operating system when they are very wrong. Although some Linux distros regularly use the command line most distros have a beautiful graphic user interface. They also have many varieties of the graphic user interface such as gnome(if you are a mac user) or KDE(if you are familiar with windows) and many others. I have been virus free for years with linux and have all kinds of software instantly available for free. Not everyone wants to or really cares to learn how their machines work so in that case ...go ahead and spend the extra money on a mac. I build my own machines(and for friends only) and do NOT buy cheap parts. Big companies that sell PC's wil use cheap parts as they buy in bulk and want to make money. I am not a fan of Dell and others as I have worked on several....they will use the quickest route possible to build a pc but....most of the time that someone calls me with a pc problem it ends up to be a problem with the operating system and not a "part or component failure."(corrupt files, virus, bad settings or worse....a rootkit) Most people will get angry that their computer doesn't work when in truth the operating system borked. They put the blame on the pc when it is the os.

If you enjoy fixing pc's or just tinkering as your original post suggests then your geeky side would really get a thrill out of Linux. New users should consider Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Opensuse, PCLinuxOS or Linux Mint as these are easy to start with and have great documentation online. A live cd will let you try any distro before installing so you know what you are getting before you commit. Linux is very fast and mine boots in seconds instead of minutes...web pages load up quick and free software for just about everything a person could need. Your old machine could run faster than ever and a newly built machine will fly.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Penny

Edited May 14, 2011 by mystika1

[mystika1]

 

I've used Linux for well over a decade, and you're not going to get me back to Windows. I think it's great, and does pretty much everything I need it to. But if you're not willing/able to do your own tech support, Apple is a better bet.

 

A lot of Linux distributions let you download a LiveCD, which lets you try out Linux without actually installing it (just download the CD image, burn it to a CD, stick it in the drive, and reboot the computer). http://www.ubuntu.com/ and http://www.linuxmint.com/ are two popular versions aimed at desktop users, if you're interested in finding out more.

:iagree:

[Shellers]

I used to go through a desktop computer every year or so. About seven years ago I switched over to Mac and have never had a single problem with it!

 

Here's the line up of Macs in our House:

 

 

• iMac - 7 years old. The family mac, not a single problem ever.
  
• MacBook - 6 years old. This is my 20 year old DD's, she's never had a problem with it.
  
• MacBook - 3 years old. This is mine and I share it with the kids, not a single problem ever.
  
• MacBook Pro - 2 years old. This is my 15 year old DD's and she's never had a problem.
  
• MacBook - 1 year old. This is my step daughters and she's never had a problem with it. She used to go through a laptop every year, so far the mac is holding up.
  

 

I also have a Gateway laptop I use for my websites. There so much good software for internet marketers which are NOT Mac friendly. I don't like the Gateway but it's a must for my business.

[Stacyandtherugrats]

Hi,

It depends on the operating system. I have used plenty of computers with xp/7 and macs and linux systems. I imagine I will get bashed for this but...oh well. I hate windows operating systems period. And honestly after running several different linux operating systems I am not all in love with macs because although they have a good product they are indeed way over priced. Linux is by far the best most stable system in my eyes..but only if you take the time or have the time to learn it. I have been virus free for years with linux and have all kinds of software instantly available for free. Not everyone wants to or really cares to learn how their machines work so in that case ...spend the extra money on a mac. I build my own machines(and for friends only) and do NOT buy cheap parts. Big companies that sell PC's wil use cheap parts as they buy in bulk. I am not a fan of Dell and others as I have worked on several....they will use the cheapest route possible to build a pc.

If you enjoy fixing pc's as your original post suggests then your geeky side would really get a thrill out of Linux. New users should consider Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Opensuse, PCLinuxOS or Linux Mint as these are easy to start with and have great documentation online. A live cd will let you try any distro before installing so you know what you are getting before you commit. Linux is very fast and mine boots in seconds instead of minutes...web pages load up quick and free software for just about everything a person could need. Your old machine could run faster than ever and a newly built machine will fly.

 

 

:iagree: tho i will add to check out Red Hat's Fedora

[Sputterduck]

Let her get it as long as she doesn't want to be an IT person. They are not for people who want to build or upgrade their own computers.

[Sputterduck]

Hi,

It depends on the operating system. I have used plenty of computers with xp/7 and macs and linux systems. I imagine I will get bashed for this but...oh well. I hate windows operating systems period. And honestly after running several different linux operating systems I am not all in love with macs because although they have a good product they are indeed way over priced. Linux is by far the best most stable system in my eyes..but only if you take the time or have the time to learn it. I have been virus free for years with linux and have all kinds of software instantly available for free. Not everyone wants to or really cares to learn how their machines work so in that case ...spend the extra money on a mac. I build my own machines(and for friends only) and do NOT buy cheap parts. Big companies that sell PC's wil use cheap parts as they buy in bulk. I am not a fan of Dell and others as I have worked on several....they will use the cheapest route possible to build a pc.

If you enjoy fixing pc's as your original post suggests then your geeky side would really get a thrill out of Linux. New users should consider Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Opensuse, PCLinuxOS or Linux Mint as these are easy to start with and have great documentation online. A live cd will let you try any distro before installing so you know what you are getting before you commit. Linux is very fast and mine boots in seconds instead of minutes...web pages load up quick and free software for just about everything a person could need. Your old machine could run faster than ever and a newly built machine will fly.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Penny

 

Amen! :iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Shawna in Texas]

Hi,

It depends on the operating system. I have used plenty of computers with xp/7 and macs and linux systems. I imagine I will get bashed for this but...oh well. I hate windows operating systems period. And honestly after running several different linux operating systems I am not all in love with macs because although they have a good product they are indeed way over priced. Linux is by far the best most stable system in my eyes..but only if you take the time or have the time to learn it. People think of linux as a command line only operating system when they are very wrong. Although some Linux distros regularly use the command line most distros have a beautiful graphic user interface. They also have many varieties of the graphic user interface such as gnome(if you are a mac user) or KDE(if you are familiar with windows) and many others. I have been virus free for years with linux and have all kinds of software instantly available for free. Not everyone wants to or really cares to learn how their machines work so in that case ...go ahead and spend the extra money on a mac. I build my own machines(and for friends only) and do NOT buy cheap parts. Big companies that sell PC's wil use cheap parts as they buy in bulk and want to make money. I am not a fan of Dell and others as I have worked on several....they will use the quickest route possible to build a pc but....most of the time that someone calls me with a pc problem it ends up to be a problem with the operating system and not a "part or component failure."(corrupt files, virus, bad settings or worse....a rootkit) Most people will get angry that their computer doesn't work when in truth the operating system borked. They put the blame on the pc when it is the os.

If you enjoy fixing pc's or just tinkering as your original post suggests then your geeky side would really get a thrill out of Linux. New users should consider Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Opensuse, PCLinuxOS or Linux Mint as these are easy to start with and have great documentation online. A live cd will let you try any distro before installing so you know what you are getting before you commit. Linux is very fast and mine boots in seconds instead of minutes...web pages load up quick and free software for just about everything a person could need. Your old machine could run faster than ever and a newly built machine will fly.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Penny

 

:iagree:

 

DH and I use Ubuntu on our netbook. DD uses Ubuntu on hers, She has XP installed as well, but I don't even know the last time we booted it for anything. The home computer is a mac. I love our mac, but sometimes I like to fool around with the OS. When I had an old '99 powerbook, I was able to tinker quite a bit, but poor thing doesn't run very well anymore. DD's computer is on it's last leg, so I'm thinking of getting her a refurb macbook for 8th grade unless we decide to build one.

 

DH does a lot of work on PC's when he's at work. They have 4 computers in their business center for guests to use. They are riddled with all sorts of things on a daily basis. He finally put in 2 older imacs and he's been given a break. The funny thing about Linux (and a misconception) is that you don't have to be technically minded to use it. DH doesn't want to tinker with anything when he gets home and the Ubuntu boots quickly and he can go straight on the web without any problems.

[Ohdanigirl]

I have to agree with your dd. The only issue I have is that many classes and hs programs require windows. :glare: I just haven't decided to run parallels yet.

 

Danielle

[WishboneDawn]

Yup. I think PCs get the blame when it's actually Windows that's at fault. I also think Mac is quite happy to encourage that misconception. I'm glad that people are happy with their Macs but I think it's important to recognize that the issue is not the superiority of Macs but the lack of Windows.

 

I haven't had enough trouble with any of our Windows PCs that I'd want to bother with another OS but then I'm not afraid of hunting down the odd trojan or just doing a fresh install when needed. If I was over Windows I'd simply go to Ubuntu. Much cheaper then buying a Mac.

[Word Nerd]

Yup. I think PCs get the blame when it's actually Windows that's at fault. I also think Mac is quite happy to encourage that misconception. I'm glad that people are happy with their Macs but I think it's important to recognize that the issue is not the superiority of Macs but the lack of Windows.

 

I haven't had enough trouble with any of our Windows PCs that I'd want to bother with another OS but then I'm not afraid of hunting down the odd trojan or just doing a fresh install when needed. If I was over Windows I'd simply go to Ubuntu. Much cheaper then buying a Mac.

 

All of our PC problems have been hardware issues, not OS ones.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Yup. I think PCs get the blame when it's actually Windows that's at fault. I also think Mac is quite happy to encourage that misconception. I'm glad that people are happy with their Macs but I think it's important to recognize that the issue is not the superiority of Macs but the lack of Windows.

 

I haven't had enough trouble with any of our Windows PCs that I'd want to bother with another OS but then I'm not afraid of hunting down the odd trojan or just doing a fresh install when needed. If I was over Windows I'd simply go to Ubuntu. Much cheaper then buying a Mac.

 

 

As someone (Bill?) mentioned before...it is a two fold problem. PC makers tend to put in lower quality parts to keep costs down on their machines and Windows is just overly clunky (to be kind). We've always had Dells and HPs. The HPs have out performed the Dells but each "new" computer lasted for less time than its predecessor before it became unworkable.

 

As someone else mentioned Linux is another OS option but most casual PC users don't have the skills/knowledge base to run an operating system other than Windows or OS X. Also-most casual users don't know enough about brands, latest developments, etc to be able to custom build a machine or add higher quality replacement parts.

 

I am happy to be back with a Mac after many years of PC. It isn't perfect and still has minor issues but the trouble is nothing next to what we had with PCs. And the fixes are ever so much smoother. When Lion comes out this year I am looking forward to being able to upgrade my OS without having to devote long hours or even days to the process. Having upgraded Windows more than once I am thrilled to take it easy (or easier) this time around.

[nmoira]

This seemed like a good thread to resurrect to say that after three years, we finally talked MIL into getting a Mac (we helped out). I hope this means an end to twice-weekly (minimum) tech support calls (always at the most inopportune moments). I hate PC's. DH is showing her the ropes as I type... pics are being uploaded to FB and she's Skyping. *phew*

[Shawna in Texas]

This seemed like a good thread to resurrect to say that after three years, we finally talked MIL into getting a Mac (we helped out). I hope this means an end to twice-weekly (minimum) tech support calls (always at the most inopportune moments). I hate PC's. DH is showing her the ropes as I type... pics are being uploaded to FB and she's Skyping. *phew*

:lol:

 

Oh my MIL. We have currently on our table a ginormous Dell laptop. It's got to be 17 inches or so. Dh is trying to fix it. What my DH can ascertain while on the phone with his dad is that she got mad and smacked it because it wasn't doing what she needed it to do fast enough. He hasn't been able to fix it, though. None of his friends have been able to fix it, either.

 

No way would I buy that woman a Mac :lol: even if a Mac could withstand a smacking. We are going to install Linux to both of their computers, though (FIL bought her another innocent cheap laptop). That should help with the viruses at least. And that would hopefully end our twice-weekly troubleshooting phone calls.

 

 

.

[Running the race]

I hate to admit it, but I love my husband's Mac. We have three PC's, but I'm always on his work laptop.

[nmoira]

:lol:

 

Oh my MIL. We have currently on our table a ginormous Dell laptop. It's got to be 17 inches or so. Dh is trying to fix it. What my DH can ascertain while on the phone with his dad is that she got mad and smacked it because it wasn't doing what she needed it to do fast enough. He hasn't been able to fix it, though. None of his friends have been able to fix it, either.

Have you seen this?

 

 

 

No way would I buy that woman a Mac :lol: even if a Mac could withstand a smacking. We are going to install Linux to both of their computers, though (FIL bought her another innocent cheap laptop). That should help with the viruses at least. And that would hopefully end our twice-weekly troubleshooting phone calls.

We helped her get a mac mini, plus we paid for her applecare. The Apple Store had a promotion for a free printer/scanner and they gave her a homeschooler discount even though I wasn't the one getting the computer... that knocked $50 off the applecare too. I was shocked by how little was spent for what we left with.

 

ETA: It's been about 3 hours since DH left and there hasn't been one call.

 

ETA2: She managed to lecture every store employee she could corner about the layout of the store and customer service. Keep in mind that aside from her, DH and I were the oldest people in the store.:tongue_smilie:

Edited May 23, 2011 by nmoira

[Shawna in Texas]

Have you seen this?

 

 

 

We helped her get a mac mini, plus we paid for her applecare. The Apple Store had a promotion for a free printer/scanner and they gave her a homeschooler discount even though I wasn't the one getting the computer... that knocked $50 off the applecare too. I was shocked by how little was spent for what we left with.

 

ETA: It's been about 3 hours since DH left and there hasn't been one call.

 

ETA2: She managed to lecture every store employee she could corner about the layout of the store and customer service. Keep in mind that slide from her, DH and I were the oldest people in the store.:tongue_smilie:

 

I hadn't seen that, but I just posted it to DH's wall. I guess smacking does work in some cases.

 

With a Mac Mini, she'd either hurl it across the room or punch the monitor if her dock started retracting.

 

The thing with my MIL is that we're not clear about her expectations on how the computer is supposed to work. She sees her grandkids get on and fly through things and sees it as easy, but calls dh to ask where a document she saved might be.

 

Do you have Fry's Electronics up there? That's the only store here that I seem to get a bit confused in, but only when looking for SD cards or flash drives, things that can be and usually are in more than one section. They've got the biggest selection of anime and British comedies that I can see in person, plus great coffee, but it can be pretty confusing if you haven't been a half dozen times. There's still parts of that store I have yet to explore.

[Aelwydd]

Something that has not been addressed in this debate on the software vs. the hardware, is that Macs are the only computers that are made precisely for the software mounted on them, and vice versa.

 

PCs are NOT. Windows software is made to be a "one-size-fits-all" so that it can be used on every machine made in China to Timbuktu. In order to be versatile enough to blanket such a wide divergence of hardware out there, Windows cannot make the same type of intuitive linkages to its software that Mac + OSX does.

 

The OSX kernel was based upon UNIX, and that is what gives it is stability. However, the entire program was always designed for and only MAC MACHINES.

 

It's like the difference between buying a dress at a department store, and having one designed, cut, and sewn exactly to your specific measurements. Sure, the department store dress will fit some folks better than others, and it can be somewhat altered to fit better.

 

But, it still cannot be as good or perfect a fit or style as the clothing specifically designed for ONE individual in mind.

 

That is why Macs are generally much more functional, secure, and enjoyable to use than PCs.

 

Macs DO have issues, they are not problem-free. But, I just think it's an entirely different level UP from PCs.

 

[This message has been brought to you by my son's 700 mghz eMac, running on 10.3.9 - and still zippier and more reliable than my 2 year old HP work laptop running on Windows 7.]