I probably shouldn't have said anything, but I did.

[NanceXToo]

It's not. But I don't think that's the only or the appropriate alternative.

 

In those situations, my usual response it to either politely ignore the situation or to try and catch the mother's eye and smile or say something sympathetic. Even asking if there's anything I can do to help, to me, is better and more supportive than stepping into a parental role with a stranger's child. The mother is an adult. She has the right to either accept my offer of help or tell me to shove off. Her child is a child and does not have that power.

 

:iagree:

[joysworld]

OK. Look.

 

I have met the OP, and she's not the type to jump into a situation this way. She is cheerful and friendly in affect, and thoughtful and respectful of other people; and I'm sure that this impulse was a good one. I'm sure that she wouldn't do this often or randomly, and I think that her intuition was a good guide in this case.

 

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that the OP had anything but good and thoughtful intentions. What I am saying, that to a distressed overwhelmed mother, she is not going to see this as being thoughtful, but rather feel judged and shamed. Sometimes it's not about motives, it's about perception.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I might have said something similar. Perhaps it is because I have been a scout leader for years. Maybe it's just that I got tired of watching scouts have horrid behavior (climbing on top of storage buildings, waving burning sticks, pushing past people to get a serving of cake, throwing food around,) that I am no longer interested in acting as if such behavior is within norms.

 

In another setting that was anonymous, I might have kept quiet. But there is more of an expectation in scouting that the group is helping the scouts learn how to behave, how to master difficult tasks and even how to be polite. So I don't think that a comment like you made was out of place for the setting.

 

I hope that the mom did take it kindly rather than as criticism of her parenting.

[ktgrok]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Look, if I was in that woman's situation, I'd have been mortified. Sometimes we're just not at our best, sometimes our children are just not at our best, and there could be a million and one reasons for that.

 

If my kid was having an off day or an off moment and I was feeling upset about it and saying something to him, and then there's some strange woman I never met in my life standing in line with her own children who are apparently NOT having an off day or an off moment and she decided to discipline my child... Wow.

 

I'd be feeling all sorts of mortified. Like great here's this woman who thinks she knows how to parent better than I do, who apparently sees me as a useless parent who needs someone to step in and parent for her, who thinks she's got the key to what my child needs in regard to discipline all figured out- AND SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW US!

 

I don't care how good her intentions were (and I'm sure they were meant to be good), I'd be insulted, embarrassed, and I would have gone home and lost days of sleep thinking back over "Why did I let her do that, should I have said something, are my parenting skills really that bad, are hers really that good, who did she think she was" and so on and so forth.

 

Doing something like that is NOT a way to help, it just comes across as "I'm a better parent than you, so let me show you how you OUGHT to be doing this parenting thing!" rather than helpful.

[In the Rain]

Look, if I was in that woman's situation, I'd have been mortified. Sometimes we're just not at our best, sometimes our children are just not at our best, and there could be a million and one reasons for that.

 

If my kid was having an off day or an off moment and I was feeling upset about it and saying something to him, and then there's some strange woman I never met in my life standing in line with her own children who are apparently NOT having an off day or an off moment and she decided to discipline my child... Wow.

 

I'd be feeling all sorts of mortified. Like great here's this woman who thinks she knows how to parent better than I do, who apparently sees me as a useless parent who needs someone to step in and parent for her, who thinks she's got the key to what my child needs in regard to discipline all figured out- AND SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW US!

 

I don't care how good her intentions were (and I'm sure they were meant to be good), I'd be insulted, embarrassed, and I would have gone home and lost days of sleep thinking back over "Why did I let her do that, should I have said something, are my parenting skills really that bad, are hers really that good, who did she think she was" and so on and so forth.

 

Doing something like that is NOT a way to help, it just comes across as "I'm a better parent than you, so let me show you how you OUGHT to be doing this parenting thing!" rather than helpful.

 

:iagree: and can't really say it any better.

[cdrumm4448]

It would never cross my mind that the OP's comments were meant as a criticism of my parenting. But, I also generally don't care what others think of the choices I make.

 

I also don't consider the OP's comments as "discipline". I agree with PPs that there is no excuse for a child's rude behavior toward his mother. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[OnTheBrink]

Backing a mother up is quite a different thing than questioning her parenting or judging her. I view the OP's actions as showing solidarity and support, not judging.

 

I always appreciate when others' tell my children that they should not speak rudely to me, even if I'm there (and yes, this has happened to me). Maybe y'all are much better parents than I am, but they don't always even believe me that they're out of line, and I love it if they get outside reinforcement. I feel validated and backed up, not judged.

 

It's the golden rule - I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I realize that not all would have done unto them as I would, but I can't read others' minds, so it's the best I can do.

 

I agree. If my kid was being rude in public, I'd have welcomed someone pointing it out to her.

[Serenade]

 

If you ever see my kids running amok, feel free to address them. I wouldn't be offended.:D

 

This would be me.

 

I wil say, in our cub scout pack, it is not unusual to have one parent or leader addressing another child's misbehavior, even with said child's parent present. I kind of like it. I have not witnessed condescension in this process, just simple behavior correction. And it usually works.

[Virg]

If you had said that to my kid, I would have raised an eye....at my kid....as to say "SEE, someone else thinks you are acting like a fool." Wouldn't make me mad at all if I knew my kid deserved it.

:iagree:

[Serenade]

 

In another setting that was anonymous, I might have kept quiet. But there is more of an expectation in scouting that the group is helping the scouts learn how to behave, how to master difficult tasks and even how to be polite. So I don't think that a comment like you made was out of place for the setting.

 

 

 

I think this is a key point in scouting organizations. Scouting is all about behavior and comporting yourself well. I find that scouting gently shapes kids into the scouting model. Watching a little kid evolve into a boy scout through the years is an amazing thing.

[cdrumm4448]

This would be me.

 

I wil say, in our cub scout pack, it is not unusual to have one parent or leader addressing another child's misbehavior, even with said child's parent present. I kind of like it. I have not witnessed condescension in this process, just simple behavior correction. And it usually works.

 

Our CC community is the same way. That is one of the main reasons I chose CC as our co-op; discipline was very important to me. Our community has very high standards.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think anyone here is saying that the OP had anything but good and thoughtful intentions. What I am saying, that to a distressed overwhelmed mother, she is not going to see this as being thoughtful, but rather feel judged and shamed. Sometimes it's not about motives, it's about perception.

 

Yes, but this is at a Scouts meeting--there's an assumption of common standards that is different than, say, a supermarket line. Context is critical.

[dangermom]

I think you did fine. I would have seen it as a gesture of support. Yeah, I'm not a perfect parent, sometimes I get overwhelmed--that's true for everyone, it's not an utter failure on my part, it's just life. It's nice when someone has your back.

[FlockOfSillies]

Whoa, nelly! I'm away from a thread for one day and it just takes off! Where are all of you when I'm hemming and hawing over history curricula? LOL.

 

If I'd just been able to find a place to set down my own plate, I've could've helped her clean up. That's what I really wanted to do. I do hope she took my remark in the spirit it was intended -- as one of support, not criticism.

[Greta]

If I'd just been able to find a place to set down my own plate, I've could've helped her clean up. That's what I really wanted to do. I do hope she took my remark in the spirit it was intended -- as one of support, not criticism.

 

That's certainly how I interpreted your words, and I hope she did too.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding many of the replies to your post. It seems as if people are saying that the child deserves to be entirely insulated and protected from reactions to his behavior from those outside his family. But that seems not only unrealistic to me, but not even something I would want my child to think. I mean, obviously it could be taken too far, and I wouldn't let anyone go off on my daughter! But what you said was perfectly reasonable and appropriate. It was someone outside of his family that helped clean up the mess he had made. It was someone outside of his family who had prepared that food that he wasted. I don't see why everyone outside of his family owes it to him to pretend that his behavior was perfectly acceptable. :confused: Seems to me that would be a far worse offense to him in the long run.

[NanceXToo]

That's certainly how I interpreted your words, and I hope she did too.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding many of the replies to your post. It seems as if people are saying that the child deserves to be entirely insulated and protected from reactions to his behavior from those outside his family. But that seems not only unrealistic to me, but not even something I would want my child to think. I mean, obviously it could be taken too far, and I wouldn't let anyone go off on my daughter! But what you said was perfectly reasonable and appropriate. It was someone outside of his family that helped clean up the mess he had made. It was someone outside of his family who had prepared that food that he wasted. I don't see why everyone outside of his family owes it to him to pretend that his behavior was perfectly acceptable. :confused: Seems to me that would be a far worse offense to him in the long run.

 

Really? A perfect stranger?

 

You know, I can't help wondering how this thread would have gone if instead of the OP posting it, it had been that other mother. If she was a member here and said, "There I was, having a bad day, and some complete stranger stepped in, right in front of me, to put in her two cents and discipline my child...."

 

I bet we'd be seeing WAY more of the "What nerve! I would have told her off!" types of posts by way of response than we're seeing here.

[Jenny in Florida]

Really? A perfect stranger?

 

You know, I can't help wondering how this thread would have gone if instead of the OP posting it, it had been that other mother. If she was a member here and said, "There I was, having a bad day, and some complete stranger stepped in, right in front of me, to put in her two cents and discipline my child...."

 

I bet we'd be seeing WAY more of the "What nerve! I would have told her off!" types of posts by way of response than we're seeing here.

 

I suspect you are correct.

 

Here's the thing: At no point did I suggest that any child should be "isolated" from society's disapproval. And I think it would have been an entirely different situation if this child had been running around unsupervised causing trouble for others.

 

However, in this instance, we have a mother present and interacting with a chld and a perfect stranger taking it upon herself to decide what the appopriate response should be.

 

That's the part that bothers me.

[cdrumm4448]

Really? A perfect stranger?

 

You know, I can't help wondering how this thread would have gone if instead of the OP posting it, it had been that other mother. If she was a member here and said, "There I was, having a bad day, and some complete stranger stepped in, right in front of me, to put in her two cents and discipline my child...."

 

I bet we'd be seeing WAY more of the "What nerve! I would have told her off!" types of posts by way of response than we're seeing here.

 

They're in a group together. How could they be complete strangers? Bad behavior does affect other people, regardless of the cause, and should be dealt with. If mom says she's about to have a nervous breakdown, she's asking for help. Otherwise she would have kept her statement to herself. Teaching children that their behavior has no effect on others is a mistake. The world won't be so understanding when they're older.

[74Heaven]

...so I mentioned to the volunteers that "we need to get this lady another plate of food." They said they'd clean up the mess....

I looked at him and said very calmly, "Young man, you do not talk to your mama that way. You need to tell her sorry." He actually got quiet for a minute, but as I turned away he started mouthing off again. Sigh. I wasn't really expecting him to apologize, .....)

 

BRAVO!!! I think the only improvement would have been to add your supportive thoughts into a comment to the mom, "no big deal; parenting is tough" or some such thing.

 

Great job!

You were polite. You were brief. You were encouraging.

I highly doubt the kids had "special needs" of any notable variety. And even if he did, your comments were right on. There was no offense even if he had special needs. You were not mean or judgmental, you were empathetic!

 

Lisa J, mom to 5

[FlockOfSillies]

Had you said that to my child, I would have turn to you, and been just as rude as you were, and told you to mind your business, worry less about my situation, and try to focus your perfect parenting with your own perfect children.

 

And if you had done that, I would have replied with something to the effect of, "I'm terribly sorry. I meant no offense. I wanted to help, and I could see that he was giving you a hard time. Here's a Kleenex."

 

Comfort the mother if you think you must.

Wow. This is just... I don't know quite what to say. You seem very angry and defensive, and it's apparent I've hit a nerve.

[kaylk in tx]

They're in a group together. How could they be complete strangers? Bad behavior does affect other people, regardless of the cause, and should be dealt with. If mom says she's about to have a nervous breakdown, she's asking for help. Otherwise she would have kept her statement to herself. Teaching children that their behavior has no effect on others is a mistake. The world won't be so understanding when they're older.

 

But they're NOT in a group together! OP's son is 9, the child in this scenario is 5. No way they're in the same pack. It was a Cub Scout camp, which although I've not done Boy/Cub Scouts, I'm assuming is a large, multi-pack event.

 

And I can see myself in that situation with my 9yo ds, who has just gone through the screening which shows him having "high probability" of Asperger's, way too much stimulation and not enough down time, having a complete meltdown. And yes, even if the OP's intentions were golden, it would still feel like a slap in the face. I would probably have left in tears, vowing never to return. In fact, I did this with library storytime, years ago.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that was a perfect response.

 

Sometimes I think mums need an advocate if they have a very strong kid- a kid whose personality or behaviour overwhelms their ability to deal with it effectively. I don't know what i would have done without dh there as back up on bad days- and plenty of women don't have that back up.

I totally agree! I would want you to say that to my kids!

[MrsBasil]

I think you did fine. I would have seen it as a gesture of support. Yeah, I'm not a perfect parent, sometimes I get overwhelmed--that's true for everyone, it's not an utter failure on my part, it's just life. It's nice when someone has your back.

 

 

This. I've been trying to figure out how to say what I wanted and someone else did.

[Blue Hen]

Kid was still mouthing off, and when he finally paused, I looked at him and said very calmly, "Young man, you do not talk to your mama that way. You need to tell her sorry." He actually got quiet for a minute,

 

We were travelling through the Richmond area when my 13yo DS was, well, acting like a 13yo boy and not being totally respectful to me. (He was not behaving as poorly as the cub scout boy. No where near that awful. )This very tall, very large African American man looked at DS and very calmly said the same thing you did to my son. It made an impact on him and several times over the next year or so we reflected back on that day.

 

I think you did just fine, and if I could find that man I would thank him again. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm sure, if any of them had spoken to my child, tried to take her in hand, it would have made the entire experience that much more devastating for me.

 

Having one single person simply make eye contact and smile sympathetically or even offer to help, on the other hand, would have made all the difference.

 

The point is that you never know what's happening in a family, not from the glimpse you get in a restaurant or grocery store. And I do not believe it is my job to try and "fix" other people's children, since I'm not in the know enough to have any clue what might actually be broken.

Good point.

 

I have a special needs kid. I think that the OP situation was okay if I was the mom in that particular situation. I get very annoyed when people chide her for wearing comfortable clothes (instead of the acceptable church wear), crying or other comfort measures in a crowd and/or not sleeping in her own room... so I know where you are coming from.

[FlockOfSillies]

It's not a personal attack at all. OP didn't mention that she had perfect children, but she did judge someone else's parenting technique and child based on standing in line with them for five minutes. Then she had thought it was her right to correct someone else's child according to standards she has set for herself, her parenting techniques and her children.

 

If I judged anything, it was one kid's behavior at one point in time. Not his value as a person, not his mother's technique. I said nothing to compare her child with my own.

 

Standards I've set for myself and my children? They include not dumping food on the floor and throwing a fit; they include not talking to adults in authority so disrespectfully, especially not to one's parents -- special needs or not. They include apologizing when you've wronged someone. Do your standards exclude these simple things? Or are you simply trying to say that if a standard is not perfectly attained, then it can't be held at all?

 

Again, she had no knowledge of any other aspect of this mother and child's life except for this five minutes in a food line. Mother could have been tired, child could have been tired, etc etc etc, etc, various reasons why the scenario was going down the way it was going down, and she knew about NONE of those reasons, just that she didn't agree with how the child was acting or the parenting that mother was doing.

 

I mentioned all these things in my OP. Or did you miss that?

[susankenny]

OP, it sounds like you really meant well and weren't coming at the situation with judgement, but rather empathy. Normally, I hate when people try to co-parent with me. It drives me batty, even when it's my husband (meaning I am clearly talking to my child & he steps over me to take control...we've worked that out early on though & I don't ever do it to him either). Anyway, if my child had behaved so completely ill in public (and believe me - we have had toddler tantrums galore!), I would also understand that that kind of behavior can solicit (and sometimes demand) intervention from an outside party. I think you did the right thing.

 

 

Susan

[FlockOfSillies]

To me it's perfectly acceptable to tell children that they are bothering you, as in this example of telling them not to hang into your restaurant booth. What I think goes over the line is commenting on a strange child's behavior when you are not the injured party.

 

He assaulted my eardrums; does that count? He dumped rice on my husband's shoes; does that count? He inconvenienced the people who came to help his mom clean up, and slowed down the line so the 200 people behind him had to wait even longer; does any of this count? It didn't happen in a vacuum.

[Rivka]

He assaulted my eardrums; does that count? He dumped rice on my husband's shoes; does that count? He inconvenienced the people who came to help his mom clean up, and slowed down the line so the 200 people behind him had to wait even longer; does any of this count? It didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

But you didn't comment on any of that to him - you told him he shouldn't talk back to his mom.

[HeidiKC]

I know you meant to be helpful, but I would have felt terrible (and probably would have been pushed closer to the nervous breakdown) if you'd have said that to my child. It would have made me feel like a complete failure and completely embarrassed. Sort of like pointing out to me that I was ineffective (even if already knew that, it'd be so hurtful). I think it would have been better to have made a more sympathetic comment like the one you were thinking of, "don't worry, we've all had hard days like that with our kids".

[joysworld]

He assaulted my eardrums; does that count? He dumped rice on my husband's shoes; does that count? He inconvenienced the people who came to help his mom clean up, and slowed down the line so the 200 people behind him had to wait even longer; does any of this count? It didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

 

Then those are things you should have spoken to him about.

 

I don't think anyone in here is saying you had impure motives. We are just trying to explain how your comment would have made us feel had we been in her situation.

[Greta]

Really? A perfect stranger?

 

Well, his actions affected perfect strangers. That's my point. None of us lives in isolation. The things we do affect those around us. Other people stepped in to HELP by cleaning up the mess he made. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that someone stepped in to gently point out to him that his was behavior was disrespectful.

 

You know, I can't help wondering how this thread would have gone if instead of the OP posting it, it had been that other mother.

Well, yes, since she was the one telling the story, we were able to see the OP's concern for the mother, and to see that she had hoped she planted a seed for that boy to see his mother as something other than just the person who is there to meet his demands, but someone worthy of respect in her own right. We don't know the woman's reaction. That's all conjecture. If the opposite had been true, then we wouldn't know the OP's motivations and concerns, we would only know the other woman's reaction. (which, incidentally, might not be as negative as most people here assume). We can only respond to the information given, and I got the feeling from the OP that she handled it gracefully, out of concern for the mom. So my reaction is based on that. But it does seem that there have been a lot of "what nerve!" responses anyway.

 

Obviously many, many others here disagreed. But when I put myself in that woman's shoes, the OP's words seemed like an attempt at solidarity to me. Not a judgment, but a "sorry, you didn't deserve that". I genuinely felt it was kind of her, and thought that I would say so since so many here got on her case for it. That's all.

Edited May 2, 2011 by GretaLynne

[QueenCat]

But they're NOT in a group together! OP's son is 9, the child in this scenario is 5. No way they're in the same pack. It was a Cub Scout camp, which although I've not done Boy/Cub Scouts, I'm assuming is a large, multi-pack event.

 

 

A Cub Scout Pack includes boys from Tigers (1st grade) through Webeloes (5th grade). A den is a sub-group within a pack. Dens are individual groups (Tigers, Wolves, Bears, 1st and 2nd year Webeloes). So,yes, a 5 (very young for 1st grade though) and a 9 year old can be in the same pack. Camps can be done on the pack level or a larger, multi-pack group. OP did not indicate whether or not it was just her son's pack or a District event with many packs. The number of people, if including families, mentioned, would make me think just one pack but again, this info was not included.... and not really relevant. I'm just explaining the organization to those who don't know, and may find it helpful.

[Murphy101]

I think the OP comment was fine.

 

There is really no argument that the boy was being disrespectful to his mother.

Part of scouts is supposed to be about teaching young boys to become honorable young men, so it seems fitting to me that when a boy is not behaving in that manner - others in scouts would call him on it. Kudos!

 

I suppose a mother could choose to be offended or mortified by that.

 

No one, including the OP, has said they think their own little darlings would never do such a thing as make a public spectacle of themselves. I think we all know all our little darlings would and have at some point. (Then again, maybe that is just my reality.)

 

Personally, there is plenty more for me to get worked up over than a fellow mom reinterating something basic I want my dc to learn by telling my son to respect his mother and to say he is sorry when he doesn't. *shrug*

[FlockOfSillies]

Look, my kids are neurotypical. But they're still kids, and they don't come out of the womb knowing how to behave. They have to be taught. And I'm finding that it takes them a long, long, long time to learn. Either no one told me this when I first had children, or I wasn't listening, thinking I'd have no trouble responding the right way every time. (HA! Yes, I really was that delusional.)

 

The worst part is, they have me as their mom. I'm such a royal screw-up it's not even funny. Too many times I don't behave the way I expect my kids to behave. But I'm still tasked with the job of doing it. I still have to give them a goal to aim at.

 

I've had people criticize me in public before, and it stings. And if they're right about me, it stings even more. But I have to decide what to do with that information. If they're wrong, it's no big deal. If they're right, and I've screwed up, I need to be a grown-up and humbly admit it, and resolve to do better next time. That kind of self-reflection is painful, but necessary. Do I gain anything by shooting the messenger and reveling in my own self-constructed perfection?

 

I don't want to minimize any pain people have caused you over the years by coming right out and insulting you, or calling your special needs kid names, or anything else like that.

 

I guess I look at this new world we live in, where you're not supposed to give anyone else even a hint that they are less than perfect, lest you shatter their world to pieces, and I realize I don't belong. I'm from a world where you see your own faults and try to improve them, and you try to help other people (especially the younger ones) do the same. I think the general emphasis in our culture on "tolerance" has ironically made all of us a lot thinner-skinned, and it emboldens more people to foist the intolerable on everyone else around them.

[LidiyaDawn]

I looked at him and said very calmly, "Young man, you do not talk to your mama that way. You need to tell her sorry."

 

If that's the worst thing that this kid ever hears from someone, he'll have lived one heck of a charmed life.

 

Goodness, the OP didn't curse him out. :tongue_smilie:

[FlockOfSillies]

I think I should add that we have several scouts in our pack who are "on the spectrum"/special needs. Their parents have them in scouts expressly for the social conditioning aspect of the program. One family in particular has a kid who's a real handful. They don't use the special needs handle as an excuse. They must be exhausted, but they are on top of that kid every minute. Someday, it will pay off.

[In2why]

I think you handled it perfectly! Kids behave boorishly because they can. They also outnumber us. I think what you did is supportive and I would have done exactly the same thing. If the parent didn't take it exactly as it was intended then you know the problem with the child's behavior is her parenting and not the child.

[cdrumm4448]

I guess I look at this new world we live in, where you're not supposed to give anyone else even a hint that they are less than perfect, lest you shatter their world to pieces, and I realize I don't belong. I'm from a world where you see your own faults and try to improve them, and you try to help other people (especially the younger ones) do the same. I think the general emphasis in our culture on "tolerance" has ironically made all of us a lot thinner-skinned, and it emboldens more people to foist the intolerable on everyone else around them.

 

:iagree:You said it well.

[In2why]

:iagree:

 

I know Asperger's etc. can be a challenge, but most people wouldn't guess that was the issue and so commenting by another adult can make you cringe, but then again, the special needs kids ARE going to have to live in society one day too, and maybe knowing that there are appropriate behaviors expected by others, and not just mom and day, can help? I hope that's not offensive to say to mom's dealing with special needs kids ;) But a mom dealing with that type of behavior in public really could use the help as far as I'm concerned and shouldn't have to just sit there and take it while their child wreaks havoc.

 

 

I agree. This was also at a cub scout event and there are certain expectations of a cub scout. He promises "to do my duty to God and my Country, to help other people and obey the laws of the pack". And the laws of the pack state that he follow Akela which is the leader and his parents and to help the pack go. His behavior was not acceptable for a cub scout. He was also in public and someone prepared that food he knocked on the floor. His behavior didn't just impact him or his mother, but the entire culture of the event. Perhaps it is the fact that I am usually in a leadership position as a coach or scout leader, but I wouldn't have any heartburn in the least about telling a child that their behavior was out of bounds. We actually had a child call his mother a B*t&h on the football field because she brought him to a game a bit late. One of the coaches spun him around to his mother had him apologize, and then made him do push ups and sprints for about 15 minutes. He might still speak to his mother like that, but he won't do it in front of his coaches again.

[JeneralMom]

I will not tolerate anyone directly addressing my child about behaviour. Luckily, it has never happened so I do not know how I would react, but I would not have appreciated your response. If I was the mum and you addressed me like "oh it is so hard some days, especially when they are being disrespectful," I would have felt supported.

[tristangrace]

You seem to have given every evidence of being a reasonably thoughtful, helpful type of person, and your comments to the kiddo were truthful, calm, and respectful--all good stuff. It is, of course, POSSIBLE that your interaction with the kid and mom had a negative effect (i.e., made the mom feel worse), but you can't control that, can you?

 

If my neighbors can step into my life with courteous and respectful admonitions--to me or my kids--I say, great! Sure, there's always a chance that even a well-intentioned, courteous, respectful person will misread a situation and speak out of turn, but the alternative seems to be that everyone live in their own private, isolated, timid bubble of studied indifference. Which is a crappy way to live, IMHO.

[shinyhappypeople]

You seem to have given every evidence of being a reasonably thoughtful, helpful type of person, and your comments to the kiddo were truthful, calm, and respectful--all good stuff. It is, of course, POSSIBLE that your interaction with the kid and mom had a negative effect (i.e., made the mom feel worse), but you can't control that, can you?

 

If my neighbors can step into my life with courteous and respectful admonitions--to me or my kids--I say, great! Sure, there's always a chance that even a well-intentioned, courteous, respectful person will misread a situation and speak out of turn, but the alternative seems to be that everyone live in their own private, isolated, timid bubble of studied indifference. Which is a crappy way to live, IMHO.

 

:iagree:

 

Innocent bystanders shouldn't have to stand silently and put up with rude behavior from out-of-control children. That includes MY kids, who most definitely have their moments. As much as we wish that the world doesn't notice when our kids behave like rabid farm animals in public (I've *so* been there!!), people DO notice. We're NOT invisible. I would much, much rather someone say something to *back me up* than to give me a dirty look or say nothing at all.

[Jenny in Florida]

I guess I look at this new world we live in, where you're not supposed to give anyone else even a hint that they are less than perfect, lest you shatter their world to pieces, and I realize I don't belong. I'm from a world where you see your own faults and try to improve them, and you try to help other people (especially the younger ones) do the same. I think the general emphasis in our culture on "tolerance" has ironically made all of us a lot thinner-skinned, and it emboldens more people to foist the intolerable on everyone else around them.

 

I guess I don't see anyone suggesting here that no one should ever give other people that hint?

 

All anyone here has said is that they would not have felt "supported" by what you said, that many of us would have been either offended or made to feel even worse because some total stranger decided to parent our child for us.

 

I stand by my comments.

 

And no one here has yet to explain to me how it is "supportive" to step in and give a stranger's child an instruction that might be inconsistent with his or her own parents' discipline approach. I see that as, in fact, undermining the parent.

[Elizabeth in WA]

And no one here has yet to explain to me how it is "supportive" to step in and give a stranger's child an instruction that might be inconsistent with his or her own parents' discipline approach. I see that as, in fact, undermining the parent.

 

Well, if a parent has a specific goal of making the child aware of how other people view his or her behavior (a common goal for parent's of Aspie's and other high functioning autistics) then having someone else tell the child that they perceived the behavior negatively does specifically back up the parent. even beyond that situation, I do not think having a member of the community reinforce the standards set by the parent (by communicating those standards respectfully to the child) in any way undermines a parent. Community standards are a important part of most parent's standards for their children's behavior and is one reason that some aspects of child training vary by region. While I do not think it is the village's job to raise anyone's children, I do think that when you are out in the village square, so to speak, the village has a right to expect some basic level of pro-social behavior and to let you (even a child "you") know when you are failing to do that in a polite, respectful and pro-social manner.

[Brindee]

And no one here has yet to explain to me how it is "supportive" to step in and give a stranger's child an instruction that might be inconsistent with his or her own parents' discipline approach. I see that as, in fact, undermining the parent.

Not sure I can either, but here are my thoughts:

 

Our oldest was our "tantrum child". He had a really hard time with change, whether it be food he was used to, wearing something different than what he thought he was going to wear, or leaving someplace without ample notification to him. (he is still kind of that way, but is past the tantrum throwing stage at 19yo! :001_smile:)

 

One day we were at the park and time got away from us. We had to be somewhere in a short amount of time, so had to just tell the kids to come because we had to go. He was probably 5 or 6 at the time. My dh called to him to come and he yelled back, "No, it's not time yet!" DH went and explained our situation to him, took his hand and said we had to go now. DS started throwing a literal kicking and screaming tantrum, "No, I don't want to go yet! You didn't tell me in time!" etc. DH lifted him up so we could get to the vehicle, and in ds's flailing he almost kicked a guy we were walking by. That guy leaned over and sai, "Hey, you are too old for this kind of behaviour, it makes you look like a baby. I bet you'll be coming back again in a few days, but maybe not if you keep acting like this!" He gave ds a "Right?" (raised eyebrows, questioning look) look then moved on.

 

Having someone else tell ds the impression they got by ds's behaviour, kind of "shocked" him out of it. He kind of looked around. He certainly didn't want to be a baby! Then he walked with us to the car. He still wasn't happy, but he stopped the kicking and screaming.

 

That guy had no knowledge of our parenting style. I wouldn't have said to ds "You look like a baby." HOWEVER, I did not get mad at him for intervening without knowing the circumstances or how we disicplined our child. It helped ds to hear that point of view. Brought him back to reality. Made him see how he was acting, and that he wasn't in his own world, he was in a world with others that his actions were affecting.

 

Next time ds did that as we left the park (I think it happened 3 times over the years), I looked around hoping that guy was there! :001_smile: Not that I condoned him calling my son a baby (which, really he didn't, though if I'd have gotten defensive, I could have construed it to sound that way), but dh and I were tired, embarrassed, and frustrated. And we were ds's parents. Hearing that from someone else was the "shock value" ds needed to get through to him!

 

I'm sure that if the guy had stuck around and pushed his point any more, I would've started getting defensive. But he said his thing, appealed to ds's sense of dignity, then went his way. No judgment intended.

 

Worked for ds AND us! :001_smile:

Edited May 2, 2011 by Brindee

[Elaine]

To me it's perfectly acceptable to tell children that they are bothering you, as in this example of telling them not to hang into your restaurant booth. What I think goes over the line is commenting on a strange child's behavior when you are not the injured party.

 

 

 

Wow. A five minute snippet of unacceptable behavior at Cub Scout camp, and you've got the entire history of the kid and parents mapped out for the past and future? Even though you have no idea what the mother's intentions for private discipline regarding that situation were, or what the kid is like in other contexts, or really, anything at all about the family?

 

Yeah. This is why intervening in a situation like this reads as judgment, not help. Because when a person has made the leap from "you're not handling this situation the way I would" to "you are a complete failure at discipline," it's obvious in their tone and manner.

 

 

 

Well, for one thing, we're not a culture that is uniform in its values and expectations for children... if we ever were. I think you'll find that in subgroups which do have closely shared values and parenting styles, people do still discipline each other's kids. Outside that kind of context, no.

 

And see, now you have judged me based on my comment, complete with the famous WTM "Wow."

 

I wasn't judging the child or the parent, but having seen the other side of the behavior of children and parents like the ones described in this situation, in my experience, it is safe to assume that it does not end well. I stand by my statement. Parents need to discipline their out of control children. And, if they are being disciplined at home, behavior like this is rarely seen outside of the home.

[Mejane]

I think you did fine. It's not like you whacked the kid on the arse.

 

I wonder if anyone would have minded the comment had it been made by the scout leader. Why do we moms take any comment made to or about our kids as a personal assault on our parenting? Most kids do behave better when someone other than mom gives them the eye, and no kid is going to shrivel up and die because someone calmly tells them to simmer down.

[cdrumm4448]

And no one here has yet to explain to me how it is "supportive" to step in and give a stranger's child an instruction that might be inconsistent with his or her own parents' discipline approach. I see that as, in fact, undermining the parent.

 

I do not fit into a world where I need to worry if telling a child to respect his parents might be inconsistent with their parenting. It's common sense parents should be respected by their own children. It isn't my fault some parents choose not to expect respect. I do.

 

For example, I was just as DS's baseball game. I was standing near the dugout and one boy in there was getting out of control screaming and jumping off the bench. The coaches were not around. I smiled at the child and said nicely,"Watch the game." He looked at me and said,"I don't have to listen to you." I then said,"You should." He said,"You're not my mother."

 

Then he loudly burped at me.

 

 

What would be the name of the parenting style I undermined?

[Jenny in Florida]

I do not fit into a world where I need to worry if telling a child to respect his parents might be inconsistent with their parenting. It's common sense parents should be respected by their own children. It isn't my fault some parents choose not to expect respect. I do.

 

For example, I was just as DS's baseball game. I was standing near the dugout and one boy in there was getting out of control screaming and jumping off the bench. The coaches were not around. I smiled at the child and said nicely,"Watch the game." He looked at me and said,"I don't have to listen to you." I then said,"You should." He said,"You're not my mother."

 

Then he loudly burped at me.

 

 

What would be the name of the parenting style I undermined?

 

The thing is that she DIDN'T tell the child to "respect his parent." She specifically told him to say he was sorry.

 

I've already explained that this is something we very intentionally do not do in our home. I have never understood how it is helpful to coerce a child into lying about his feelings in order to get out of being in trouble. In our home, we never make apologizing a consquence of misbehavior.

 

If a stranger insisted my child apologize to me, that would not be consistent with our (intentional and well-thought-out) parenting approach.

 

But, of course, a stranger wouldn't know that.

 

Which is why said stranger should NOT attempt to discipline my child unless I'm not around to do so.