Vaccine Awareness Week Nov. 1 - 7

[*~Tina~*]

The ever growing list of recommended vaccines should raise a red flag of concern for every citizen, particularly when so many of them are directed at our children. No doubt it's a very profitable market and an area that each of us should strive to be educated in. Thus, I thought some of you might be interested in learning more during this designated vaccine awareness week.

 

Here's a link on Hep B in infants to get you started. . .

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/03/hepatitis-b-vaccines-at-birth.aspx

 

And an informational PDF. . .49 doses of 14 vaccines before age 6?

 

http://www.nvic.org/Downloads/49-Doses-PosterB.aspx'>http://www.nvic.org/Downloads/49-Doses-PosterB.aspx'>http://www.nvic.org/Downloads/49-Doses-PosterB.aspx'>http://www.nvic.org/Downloads/49-Doses-PosterB.aspx

 

How to legally avoid unwanted immunizations of all kinds pamphlet. . .

 

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Immunization.pdf

 

NVIC site link. . .

 

http://www.nvic.org/

 

 

Please pass this on to your friends and loved ones.

 

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

Edited November 4, 2010 by *~Tina~*

[sarahf.]

Thank You!

[mykdsmomy]

:thumbup1: The Hep B vax was the first one I researched and realized it was ridiculously unnecessary in newborns!!!

[smilesonly]

thanks, tina. :grouphug::grouphug:

[gaillardia]

Thanks, Tina.

I opened this thread with skepticism...

 

***

Let me add that our children had reactions to the vaccines, such as screaming for an hour, unrousable sleep for an hour, for 10+ hours, in one child. There were other things too.

Our ped's office said that was not a reaction.

Edited November 4, 2010 by gingerh
add more info

[nmoira]

In honour of Vaccine Awareness Week, I scheduled my kids (and DH) for their boosters and flu shots. Their appointment was yesterday, and I get my flu shot and pertussis booster tomorrow. ;)

[asta]

In honour of Vaccine Awareness Week, I scheduled my kids (and DH) for their boosters and flu shots. Their appointment was yesterday, and I get my flu shot and pertussis booster tomorrow. ;)

 

I was just reading about adult pertussis boosters. I need to see if I can get that one. My last flu shot ended in a seizure (pre-existing epilepsy, not anything weird there - known association), so I'm going to check. The thought of me being responsible for passing pertussis to a baby is devastating to me.

 

a

[Jumping In Puddles]

In honour of Vaccine Awareness Week, I scheduled my kids (and DH) for their boosters and flu shots. Their appointment was yesterday, and I get my flu shot and pertussis booster tomorrow. ;)

:hurray: We all have our flu shots but I have never heard of the pertussis booster! :eek: I'm going to schedule a visit to my doctor... Hooray for vaccine awareness week!!

[MotherGoose]

My sister is a pediatrician. She's seen kids sick with these diseases no one commonly sees. There is a reason there's a vaccine: they are deadly, horrible diseases. I'm glad my kids won't get chicken pox, for one--it's not usually deadly, but it's no fun! I understand that some folks have reactions, but they are in the minority. If you are on the fence about whether or not to give your kids vaccines, I'd suggest that you read information from the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical sources and not just from sources that may be unduly alarmist. Find out what getting the disease is actually like, too. I'm probably going to make people mad, sorry, but I'd not want anyone to expose their kids to these diseases out of fear that may be unrealistic.

[Perry]

In honour of Vaccine Awareness Week, I scheduled my kids (and DH) for their boosters and flu shots. Their appointment was yesterday, and I get my flu shot and pertussis booster tomorrow. ;)

We're getting ours today also.:thumbup:

[Snowfall]

I was just reading about adult pertussis boosters. I need to see if I can get that one. My last flu shot ended in a seizure (pre-existing epilepsy, not anything weird there - known association), so I'm going to check. The thought of me being responsible for passing pertussis to a baby is devastating to me.

 

a

 

You should never be around babies when you have ANY kind of cough, then. There is little (if any - haven't looked into it in the last few years) evidence that the Tdap prevents transmission of pertussis. The vaccine works mainly by preventing symptomatic infection, not by preventing infection. It does do that for some people, but it's very, very ineffective at it in general. In fact, when the Tdap was first licensed in the U.S., there was a disclaimer on the website stating that Tdap had never been shown to prevent transmission of pertussis. Actually, a quick look shows that the disclaimer is still available here: http://www.adacel-locator.com/index.cfm?FA=protect/adacel/content&S=HOME&P=HowS_pread Just look under the second picture. I'm sure you understand that if a vaccine manufacturer had ANY evidence to show that their product worked the way people hope it will - the very reason they ADVERTISE you should get it!!! - they'd not say anything like that. It's common sense that they wouldn't. They don't have the evidence, because the overwhelming evidence is that it doesn't prevent transmission.

 

Pertussis is a toxin-mediated disease, and while the vaccine is very effective at preventing symptoms, it does a poor job of conferring immunity to the bacteria itself. This is to be expected, since even infection doesn't confer long term immunity. Here's a quote from a study on the efficacy of Tdap at preventing infection:

 

In summary, booster immunization of adults with acellular pertussis vaccines was not found to increase bactericidal activity over preimmunization levels. Identifying ways to promote bactericidal immune responses might improve the efficacy of acellular pertussis vaccines.

(emphasis mine)

 

Bactericidal activity is the body's ability to kill the bacteria. The research is pretty overwhelming on this fact about the pertussis vaccine. It's been done in New Zealand, where they said the efficacy rate was no more than 59%, and as low as 33%. It's been done in Israel, where they said that continued outbreaks every 3 to 5 years (the normal pattern w/o mass vaccination) AFTER mass vaccination was begun prove that the vaccine is simply preventing symptoms, not disease transmission. An expert at a WHO meeting said that when Japan returned to high pertussis vaccination compliance, the rate of infection in infants under 3 months of age did not change, showing that transmission hadn't been effected.

 

Pertussis can be a pretty awful illness. I had a very symptomatic case of it when I was 17. I needed muscle relaxers because the coughing caused some serious muscle strain. I'm not trying to talk you out of getting the vaccine at all - I just want to be clear on that. I'm not invested in anyone else's vaccine decisions, and I certainly don't want anyone to have to get sick!!! I just think it's VERY important for people to understand how that particular vaccine does and does NOT work, because my dad and his girlfriend gave pertussis to my older dd when she was 5 months old. They'd been told by their doctor that their pertussis was just a bad case of allergies. You might be surprised to learn that pertussis in adults is very frequently missed. They're told it's bronchitis, asthma, allergies, and everything BUT pertussis.

 

So my PSA for the day is to STAY AWAY from babies if you have a cough - even a mild one. Pertussis is generally pretty mild in adults, and that cough you have could very well be it, regardless of your vaccination status - and it's especially likely to be mild if you've been vaccinated, so if you are vaccinated, please, please, please, please, please do NOT assume your mild cough isn't pertussis. Just STAY AWAY from babies when you have a cough - even a mild one!!!

[Peela]

Its about awareness. Awareness that some people - kids- react badly. Very badly. Awareness that not all scientists and intelligent people agree with the status quo on vaccinations. It's a week of promotion of information by those who may sound loud in certain circles (for those who have heard the debate over and over), but whose information has not been even heard by many.

 

It's just information. We are free to choose what to do with it. I vaccinated my kids (partially, delayed), they didn't react, AND I am supportive of spreading the AWARENESS that vaccinations CAN and DOES cause horrific reactions at times. And there are ways to help prevent the likelihood of horrific reactions. If we can't even get the information out there....well, that is unreasonable.

 

Such an emotional issue. It's just information. Information everyone should have access to, to make their own informed decisions. I know many people who do not do the reasearch and who mix in circles where it is uncool to vaccinate, where the issue has become totally emotional, so they don't. That is as negligent as ignoring the information that it can sometimes cause serious injury.

[Mom22ns]

I'm glad my kids won't get chicken pox, for one--it's not usually deadly, but it's no fun!

 

Good luck with that. In my daughters preschool class of 18 vaccinated kids 16 got chicken pox. My dd was the last and worst case. At least she never has to mess with boosters now.

[StaceyinLA]

My niece was vaccinated and got the chicken pox months later. I was vaccinated on schedule my entire life (of course not with the mass volume of vaccines now given), but when I had a Rubella titer during my first pg (not 4 years after a booster), I was NOT immune.

 

I certainly believe there is some merit in some vaccines, but I think a lot cause a false sense of security. I also think the attack on the immune system by hitting it with so many things at once, and at such young ages, does more damage than we know.

[smrtmama]

Good luck with that. In my daughters preschool class of 18 vaccinated kids 16 got chicken pox. My dd was the last and worst case. At least she never has to mess with boosters now.

 

The only one of my children to contract chicken pox so far was the only one who'd had the vaccine. His case was more severe than my brother's wild-caught pox and still was not a big deal.

[mommaduck]

Its about awareness. Awareness that some people - kids- react badly. Very badly. Awareness that not all scientists and intelligent people agree with the status quo on vaccinations. It's a week of promotion of information by those who may sound loud in certain circles (for those who have heard the debate over and over), but whose information has not been even heard by many.

 

It's just information. We are free to choose what to do with it. I vaccinated my kids (partially, delayed), they didn't react, AND I am supportive of spreading the AWARENESS that vaccinations CAN and DOES cause horrific reactions at times. And there are ways to help prevent the likelihood of horrific reactions. If we can't even get the information out there....well, that is unreasonable.

 

Such an emotional issue. It's just information. Information everyone should have access to, to make their own informed decisions. I know many people who do not do the reasearch and who mix in circles where it is uncool to vaccinate, where the issue has become totally emotional, so they don't. That is as negligent as ignoring the information that it can sometimes cause serious injury.

As someone that is not wholly anti-vax, but has had a child who nearly died from a vaccination, I THANK YOU for this post! Wish more people could be as sensitive to this issue.

[*~Tina~*]

Peela said it SO well and I appreciate each of you who read my post and responded graciously. My only intent was AWARENESS ;)

 

Naturally, the well-being of our children is of utmost importance and deserves our thoughtful consideration no matter which side you stand on.

 

Do with the information what you will - but I believe all parents should have access to both sides of the vaccine issue. They CAN and DO cause reactions - sometimes mild, sometimes permanent, sometimes deadly. The fact is that many of those reactions go unreported and little is done to investigate or establish the connection when a parent suspects that there is one.

 

Of course, we *want* to be able to trust the medical professionals but we must also be cognizant that this field is also made up of humans just like ourselves. They are not imperfect, nor are they always right or completely free to offer their honest opinions when it's contradictory to the current medical consensus of their affiliated or overseeing organizations.

 

As individual and/or group providers, they are constantly being spoonfed the positive, while the negatives are down played. If you've ever heard a pharmaceutical rep give a spiel to a physician, you have a good idea what I mean. Our medical professionals are subject to wining and dining, trips and other incentives for lending their ear.

 

While that may seem innocent enough, and while I'd certainly like to believe this isn't a incredibly persuasive tactic and doesn't bias those on the receiving end, I know the potential for subjectiveness is real - just as the potential dangers and benefits of vaccines are both real.

 

The whole issue gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and my heart aches at the thought or slightest possibility that ANYONE (person, manufacturer, organization, etc.) would imprudently subject our children to potentially harmful risks at the hands of our unpretentious trust. :crying:

 

If there was a conclusive, incontestable source of ABSOLUTE truth on the topic - what a monumental relief that would be. The fact that there isn't grieves and unnerves me to the core.

 

So, again, feel free take it or leave it. I just wanted to share and do my part to bring awareness to those who may be interested!

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

[mykdsmomy]

 

If there was a conclusive, incontestable source of ABSOLUTE truth on the topic - what a monumental relief that would be. The fact that there isn't grieves and unnerves me to the core.

/QUOTE]

 

You hit the nail on the head. Where are the double blind third party studies?

Why the sudden pertussis scare when there was no mention for YEARS of needing a booster? Pertussis has been around and affecting babies, children, adults, etc for years but Dr's have not been testing for it because if you've been vaxed against it, there's no reason to believe your horrific cough that has lasted for months is any more than bad bronchitis. The immunity of these vaccines wear off (not that they are 100% from the beginning anyway).

The amount of toxins being injected into our children to keep them "healthy" is insane.

Just as we live in a time where we need to be our own health advocates, we need to take the same proactive approach with meds/vaccines. Dr's spend very little time in med school learning about vaccines. They rely mostly on Pharma companies for their information.

[Pretty in Pink]

My sister is a pediatrician. She's seen kids sick with these diseases no one commonly sees. There is a reason there's a vaccine: they are deadly, horrible diseases. I'm glad my kids won't get chicken pox, for one--it's not usually deadly, but it's no fun! I understand that some folks have reactions, but they are in the minority. If you are on the fence about whether or not to give your kids vaccines, I'd suggest that you read information from the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical sources and not just from sources that may be unduly alarmist. Find out what getting the disease is actually like, too. I'm probably going to make people mad, sorry, but I'd not want anyone to expose their kids to these diseases out of fear that may be unrealistic.

FACT: Vaccinated children contract and spread chicken pox.

 

Those of us who take time to post in threads like these (and those parents who choose not to follow the AAP vaccination schedule) have likely done our research. I appreciate your concern, but let me say *gently* that I get so tired of hearing people chide me as if I don't realize how serious a particular illness is.

 

ETA: In no way do I mean to imply anything negative about parents who vax or follow the AAP schedule.

 

I am an informed parent. I do not follow a modified vaccination schedule because I am fearful. I do it because I am significantly concerned about exposing my children to questionable amounts of aluminum. I am concerned about injecting my children with multiple live-virus vaccines at one time. I am concerned about injecting my newborn with a vaccine for an illness that he has little to no risk of being exposed to in the short term. In my mind, concerned does not equal fearful. Fearful, to me, sounds a lot like ignorant.

 

Dr. Sears is a well-respected pediatrician who does not endorse the current AAP vaccination schedule.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I'm glad my kids won't get chicken pox, for one--it's not usually deadly, but it's no fun!

 

It must be nice to believe that the chicken pox vaccine is full-proof. I am at the house with my vaccinated (in day school) preschool child with the chicken pox. He is the 2nd of my children to get the pox while vaccinated and both times they were in preschool. Those that are vaxed for chicken pox can still get it and pass it and may not even know they have had it. They often get less bumps and can get no rash and only the respiratory symptoms.

I have no doubt that my little man brought his home from a fellow preschooler that had a cough or sniffles. Pox is actually a respiratory disease before the rash appears.

My child would have went to preschool and passed it on again b/c his dr. didn't want to think it was pox until a non-vaxed friend came down and showed all the symptoms of pox. My vaxed child would have exposed so many more kids. My advice to anyone who has a vaccinated child for pox is to know the symptoms for pox-all of them not just the rash-and to make sure not to spread it. You can get chicken pox if you have been vaccinated!

They aren't even sure how many boosters you have to have for the chicken pox vaccine to develop immunity. Now I have 2 children that won't have to keep getting boosters instead of just getting pox and spending a week at the house.

[Snowfall]

My sister's 2 daughters got chickenpox at the same time. One was vaccinated and the other was not (she was just under a year, so not old enough to have had it yet). Guess who got the more severe case? Yeah, the vaccinated one. Neither one had a bad case of it, but the vaccinated one definitely had more pox, more fever, etc. As far as I can tell, that vaccine looks like one of the most ineffective ones on the market.

[mommaduck]

My sister's 2 daughters got chickenpox at the same time. One was vaccinated and the other was not (she was just under a year, so not old enough to have had it yet). Guess who got the more severe case? Yeah, the vaccinated one. Neither one had a bad case of it, but the vaccinated one definitely had more pox, more fever, etc. As far as I can tell, that vaccine looks like one of the most ineffective ones on the market.

It is. My children seemed to be CP resistant...guessing from having been around kids with CP and building up an immunity, but never actually "getting it" themselves. Their cousins got the CP vax. Their doctor told the parents that the kids WOULD GET CP FROM THE VAX, but that it would be a "milder case". :lol: My kids went over to visit their VERY SICK cousins once they came down with CP and finally came down with CP themselves (my kids were not vaxed for CP. At that time we lived in the middle of nowhere and the only place they could get it was their cousins' house. Our kids had the milder case of NATURAL CP...it came and went with minimal issue. Their poor vax'd cousins though...

[MotherGoose]

I guess I'm lucky so far, and around friends who are lucky--haven't heard of anyone with chicken pox that's been vaccinated (or not). my dd4.5 attended preschool for 2 years. I had it when I was 9, and it was awful, so if there's a chance my kids can avoid it, I'm going to take it. Not heard of people personally with bad reactions to vaccines in general, either. It's obviously a personal choice about whether or not to vaccinate. Chicken pox is one of the milder illnesses against which we are vaccinated anyway. My mom always told me stories about having the measels and was glad we (or anyone we knew) never got them. And don't even get my sister (a pediatrician) started about the effects of the diseases unvaccinated children can get. Again, people do what you choose with your kids, I respect that, but I think the public in general has forgotten how awful these illnesses against which we are vaccinated can be. For me, the benefits outweigh the risks.

[kalanamak]

Hooray for vaccine awareness week!!

 

:iagree:

 

I was raised by a non-vaxing mother, and the sickest I have ever been was measles. I had no money, and thought I was going to die. 104 fever for days, and my mouth peeled in a big sheet, like a baggy coming off my cheeks and tongue. Ugh.

[DarlaS]

Thanks, Tina.

I opened this thread with skepticism...

 

***

Let me add that our children had reactions to the vaccines, such as screaming for an hour, unrousable sleep for an hour, for 10+ hours, in one child. There were other things too.

Our ped's office said that was not a reaction.

 

Wow. So what *is* a reaction? Make the definition narrow enough, and it could really affect how safe these things appear to be couldn't it? :glare:

[mo2]

In honour of Vaccine Awareness Week, I scheduled my kids (and DH) for their boosters and flu shots. Their appointment was yesterday, and I get my flu shot and pertussis booster tomorrow. ;)

 

We're getting ours Monday. :001_smile:

[SailorMom]

I'm glad we all have a right to vax or not - and I am not trying to "put down" anyone who doesn't - but here are my personal issues with not vax-ing:

 

1) Those who do not vaccinate are basically benefitting from the rest of us that do - their kids most likely won't be exposed because so many vax.

 

2) We - in the Western World - rarely, if ever, see the horror that some of these diseases can cause. I'm sorry - but small reactions to vax (ie a fever for a day, crankiness, soreness - not shock or something major) are NOTHING when you look at how devastating the diseases are.

 

 

I think everyone should go read Salk's biography and look into the Polio vaccine. Look at what those children went through..... We have irradicated polio in our country - but many other countries are... RIGHT NOW.... dealing with it still. Diptheria??? Anyone?? It is absolutely nightmarish. How about tetanus?

 

Anyway - we all have a right to make our own decisions - but all of those un-vaxed - thank the rest of us for the communal "herd immunity" we are all providing to you.

[mommaduck]

1) Those who do not vaccinate are basically benefitting from the rest of us that do - their kids most likely won't be exposed because so many vax.

 

To an extent this is true. For certain diseases, it is false. My children got CP from their cousins who had received the CP vax and come down with full blown CP. The reasons MOST people will not come into contact with these diseases has more to do with today's standards of sanitation, secondly the "herd immunity". There are those that CANNOT be vaccinated for legitimate reasons...there is no intent to take advantage of anyone.

 

 

 

2) We - in the Western World - rarely, if ever, see the horror that some of these diseases can cause. I'm sorry - but small reactions to vax (ie a fever for a day, crankiness, soreness - not shock or something major) are NOTHING when you look at how devastating the diseases are.

 

If those were the ONLY reactions, how nice that would be! Sorry, but this comment is very belittling of those that have experienced far worse reactions to vaccinations, from brain damage due to swelling to death. Given the society we live in, the nutrition/health care/santitation we have here, etc...the risk of the vaccination for some people is greater than the risk of the disease.

Anyway - we all have a right to make our own decisions - but all of those un-vaxed - thank the rest of us for the communal "herd immunity" we are all providing to you.

This kind of comment shows the ignorance of some people on what families negatively affected by vaccinations have gone through. Nice snarky way to say how little you think of others.

Edited November 4, 2010 by mommaduck

[Pretty in Pink]

Anyway - we all have a right to make our own decisions - but all of those un-vaxed - thank the rest of us for the communal "herd immunity" we are all providing to you.

 

Wow. Uh...thanks. Sheesh. :glare:

[Annie Laurie]

I don't consider Mercola to be a good source for medical advice.

[SailorMom]

Look - not snarky -I was terribly worried about vaxing my kids and took the decision very seriously.... It may seem rather snarky - but IMHO - it's true. Many take a risk so that a few don't have to.

 

Also - I purposefully stated that I was only talking about MINOR complications - I specifically noted that I did not mean shock or anything serious. Of course those are horrible - but I would like to see statistics of Vax reactions vs mortality and permanent damage caused by the diseases being vaxed for.

 

I am not saying anyone has to agree with me - but I am also not going to sugar coat how I feel.

[justamouse]

My sister's 2 daughters got chickenpox at the same time. One was vaccinated and the other was not (she was just under a year, so not old enough to have had it yet). Guess who got the more severe case? Yeah, the vaccinated one. Neither one had a bad case of it, but the vaccinated one definitely had more pox, more fever, etc. As far as I can tell, that vaccine looks like one of the most ineffective ones on the market.

 

 

I DO vaccinate, but selectively. I wait till my kids are older and I don't double up. that said, I was told by a Dr of Pharmacology who was an FDA liaison to not get the chicken pox vax.

Edited November 5, 2010 by justamouse

[*~Tina~*]

See, I don't think anyone has responded "ungraciously" as you hint at....there are many here with many views, and you ned to be prepared for both. And thanks, I've read the links, yet I still will shake my head at those rabid anti vaxxers, and pray my family never comes in contact with them. (Rabid being the key word. I understand the whole spectrum of reasons!)

 

Oops, I'm sorry if my post was ambiguous in any way, please let me clarify. . .

 

Up until your post, I actualy had not felt that anyone had been particularly ungracious, nor am I the least bit bothered by the various opinions on the matter when they are shared with tact and consideration for others - as it is indeed a personal decision for each family.

 

Now in regards to your particular post, I do think hurling insulting comments such as "rabid anti vaxxers" and invoking prayer that you never come in contact with them is in poor taste and just the type of obtuse chatter that makes people hesitant to participate in an otherwise intelligent conversation. ;)

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

[cjzimmer1]

 

Anyway - we all have a right to make our own decisions - but all of those un-vaxed - thank the rest of us for the communal "herd immunity" we are all providing to you.

 

 

While it's clear that you view vax and herd immunity as a good thing, not everyone agrees with you. I wish people would STOP vaxing for things like chicken pox so my kids could actually get it and develop a real immunity while they are young and can easily recover from it as opposed as waiting till whatever minimal coverage is provided by a vax wears off and they end up with them as teenagers or adults where it's much more severe. So I will not thank for increasing the likelihood that people will have to deal with much more severe sickness just so you can save yourself some convenience in the hear and now. Afterall, you know the incovenience of a few itchy scabs and a fever for a few days is nothing compared to pain and suffering from a severe vax reaction and even death. My kids pediatrician says the only reason that the ckicken pox vaccine was created was because with so many families have both parents working, parents didn't like having to stay home for a week with a sick kid. That's what drove the demand for the vax not that chicken pox is some terrible disease. Oh and of course more money for the drug companies.

 

As far as things like polio go. I'm very aware of it, my husband's aunt is a survivor of paralytic polio she contracted at 2. I know the damage it can cause, but I also know that only a very small percentage of cases. Just like only a small percentage of people have a severe reaction to a vaccine.

 

Basically, there are concerns with vaxxing or not vaxxing but implying that those who choose not to vax should thank you is rather presumptious that your choice of vaxxing is the better choice.

[mommaduck]

A person may "feel" any way they want. But neither should one dismiss the reality of so many.

 

Basically, there are concerns with vaxxing or not vaxxing but implying that those who choose not to vax should thank you is rather presumptious that your choice of vaxxing is the better choice.

Thank you.

Edited November 4, 2010 by mommaduck

[Peela]

To me the issue is not black and white- not vaccinate or dont vaccinate. Not, accept the medical establishments position to vaccinate heavily from birth, or totally reject it.

 

The studies I have seen suggest that many of the diseases we have vaccinated against were already in great decline due to improvements in public and private hygeine- in western countries, before vaccination was established. And while diseases like measles can still kill and cause serious problems in western countries...it is much rarer than it used to be when measles is actually contracted.

 

I am sorry that I did vaccinate my daughter against measles. The reason being....she can now NOT pass on immunity/antibodies to her newborn/young baby through her breastmilk. Vaccination does not produce the kind of antibodies in the mother that will protect a newborn baby...but having had the disease, does. So, we are messing with and bypassing a natural immune system process that has its own intelligence.

 

The other issue for me is the vaccination of newborn babies, or 3 month olds. Their immune system is very immature. Bombarding it with several diseases in our relatively hygeinic culture....seems counter intuitive to me. Such tender little beings. I wodl rather wait, as they do in some countries, till the baby is older and their immune system is much more resilient and able to handle the onslaught- for that is acutally what it is.

 

But I am still not convinced that vaccinations have no benefit whatsoever, especially in 3rd world countries where thousands still die from these diseases. But rather than take a strong position, I woudl rather just stay open to further information.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Peela

[amyable]

Let me add that our children had reactions to the vaccines, such as screaming for an hour, unrousable sleep for an hour, for 10+ hours, in one child. There were other things too.

Our ped's office said that was not a reaction.

 

Here too. Unrousable for 6 hours, screamed a high pitch scream for 3. Called and they said it wasn't a reaction because she didn't have a high fever. :banghead: This child now has alopecia areata, multiple food allergies, eczema, dyslexia, ADD, nvld, memory issues, slow processing ... all coincidence? I just can't think so.

[Snowfall]

I'm sorry - but small reactions to vax (ie a fever for a day, crankiness, soreness - not shock or something major) are NOTHING when you look at how devastating the diseases are.

 

I get what you're saying here, but it does upset me a little, because people are constantly paying lip service to the idea that there are really serious reactions, but then when they happen in a family, we get treated like your quote below - like we OWE you something because you've been so kind as to keep vaccinating, nevermind the fact that you do it for your own benefit, not mine. I and my family have paid our dues in serious reactions. We don't owe those who vaccinate. We took the hits. We're done.

 

What if you almost died as a result of the DPT, as I almost did when I was a kid? What if your doctor ordered you never to receive another pertussis vaccine, due to the severity of your reaction? Then, what if you had a flu shot as an adult and had another reaction (diagnosed by a doctor), albeit a different and less severe one? Then what if your oldest child had a severe, dangerous, pediatrician diagnosed reaction (as in, I didn't just think it was a reaction, I was told it WAS a serious reaction) to her first dose of Prevnar? Then what if your husband had a serious reaction (diagnosed by a doctor) to the Anthrax vaccine (he's military)? At what point would you decide that it may be genetic and stop vaccinating your kids? At what point would you decide that perhaps near death experiences are not worth it? Because the majority of people think we should keep vaccinating. After all, we could just skip Prevnar in our oldest and give vaccines to the baby until we found one that nearly killed her, too, then just skip that one...Hopefully no one would die in the process. :glare:

 

Anyway - we all have a right to make our own decisions - but all of those un-vaxed - thank the rest of us for the communal "herd immunity" we are all providing to you.

 

I will reiterate: I believe we have paid our dues, and I don't owe you anything for the 4 vaccines that don't cause herd immunity anyway (polio, pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus). As for the rest, I would say maybe I owed you something if it weren't for the fact that you choose to vaccinate because you fear the diseases, not because you care about the herd. If you do something for YOUR OWN benefit you don't deserve thanks just because you believe your decision benefits others, as well. If you were actually doing it for the benefit of the herd instead of your own children, then maybe you'd deserve thanks from me...but one would have to wonder what kind of parent would risk their own child's health for the benefit of strangers. No parent would that I know of. You vaccinate because for you and your children, the benefit outweighs the risk, certainly not because you care so much about my children that you'd risk the health of your own to protect them. I don't believe people deserve thanks for doing what they believe is the best thing for their family/children. That's what parents are supposed to do.

 

I don't mean to sound so combative. I just get really annoyed with this idea that we owe you something for doing what you determined was best for your kids. You SHOULD do what's best for your kids. That's not something the rest of us owe you thanks for. :001_huh: Maybe your kids, but not me.

[*~Tina~*]

Upon further reading, I have to admit that it does seem some of the responses are intended solely to be derisive. I don't get that. :001_huh:

 

Sharing a thoughtful opinion or personal experience is something I and others can read and understand - whether we agree or not, but the sarcasm and taunting inconsiderate jabs among adults, I don't get at all. It's immature.

 

Why bother to post such things? What's the rationale in doing so? :confused:

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

[Gratia271]

To me the issue is not black and white- not vaccinate or dont vaccinate. Not, accept the medical establishments position to vaccinate heavily from birth, or totally reject it.

 

The studies I have seen suggest that many of the diseases we have vaccinated against were already in great decline due to improvements in public and private hygeine- in western countries, before vaccination was established. And while diseases like measles can still kill and cause serious problems in western countries...it is much rarer than it used to be.

 

I am sorry that I did vaccinate my daughter against measles. The reason being....she can now NOT pass on immunity/antibodies to her newborn/young baby through her breastmilk. Vaccination does not produce the kind of antibodies in the mother that will protect a newborn baby...but having had the disease, does. So, we are messing with and bypassing a natural immune system process that has its own intelligence.

 

The other issue for me is the vaccination of newborn babies, or 3 month olds. Their immune system is very immature. Bombarding it with several diseases in our relatively hygeinic culture....seems counter intuitive to me. Such tender little beings. I wodl rather wait, as they do in some countries, till the baby is older and their immune system is much more resilient and able to handle the onslaught- for that is acutally what it is.

 

But I am still not convinced that vaccinations have no benefit whatsoever, especially in 3rd world countries where thousands still die from these diseases. But rather than take a strong position, I woudl rather just stay open to further information.

 

This.

[cjbeach]

Having a child who suffered measles encephalopathy and loss of speech secondary to his MMR vax (who "coincidentally" was dx'd with ASD 19 mos after the injury) we're well aware of it here.

[*~Tina~*]

Having a child who suffered measles encephalopathy and loss of speech secondary to his MMR vax (who "coincidentally" was dx'd with ASD 19 mos after the injury) we're well aware of it here.

 

There are too many "coincidences" that are not given the consideration they are due and it's a terrible shame that more isn't done to investigate and establish the potential life altering harm of vaccines when these situation DO occur and parents suspect a vaccine connection.

 

Likewise, we should be rightly concerned with the lack of unbiased, untainted research into these matters by those who promote and profit from vaccines - as the blatant denial of the possibility that they are harmful is simply asinine.

 

I have one who was a normally developing child until vaccines around age two, and was subsequently diagnosed with a developmental disorder, has a refractory seizure disorder and has had an extremely difficult time with learning all the way around.

 

My heart goes out to every family and child who has been potentially harmed in these cases. No parent should have to carry the weigh of "questioning" and "wondering". . . and while we may never be able to prove the connection on our own accord, God gave us intuition for a purpose and we each have to do what we believe is best for the well-being of the children we have been blessed with.

 

Which brings me back to my earlier thoughts. . .

 

If there was a conclusive, incontestable source of ABSOLUTE truth on the topic - what a monumental relief that would be. The fact that there isn't grieves and unnerves me to the core.

 

The whole issue gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and my heart aches at the thought or slightest possibility that ANYONE (person, manufacturer, organization, etc.) would imprudently subject our children to potentially harmful risks at the hands of our unpretentious trust. :crying:

 

Blessings,

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ .·´ -:¦:-Tina ~

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

http://seasonsoflearning.blogspot.com/

[nmoira]

I will reiterate: I believe we have paid our dues, and I don't owe you anything for the 4 vaccines that don't cause herd immunity anyway (polio, pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus).

:confused:

 

Please source the bolded part.

[FaithManor]

Peela,

 

Thank you for being the voice of reason. I am not on either side of the extremes. All of my children have been vaccinated but on a delayed schedule and never more than two shots at one time. That's because vaccination reactions run on my side of the family. I was fine as a child and so was my sister but my brother ran fevers of 106 + every single time he was vaccinated and had convulsions as well. My DD nearly died from her DTP at 18 months and so did my nephew. My three boys did not take after my side of the family so they have been vaxed, but on a schedule dh and I could live with and never the Hep B vaccine. DD would still not be fully vaccinated if it weren't for the fact that she is going into the medical profession and it is absolutely vital that she get what immunities she can and safely if possible. She did fine as an 18 year old getting caught up on everything (one shot at a time which meant a lot of office visits) but she ended up in the ER with second of the third in the Hep series. She was going to sign a waiver with EMS to not be fully vaxed but at the last minute decided to go ahead and have that last shot. It was done at the doctor's office and then we took books with us to the ER and sat there for the afternoon. We were both greatly relieved, as was the ER staff, that she sprouted nothing more than a headache and very mild fever.

 

So, I am pro-vax for most kids but on a delayed schedule so as not to overwhelm the immune system of a child who might not be able to handle it. I am thankful that diseases like polio do not run rampant around our country maiming and killing children. I am ever so thankful that no one needs to watch a loved one die the agnonizing death of tetanus. I am glad that I had my rather mild case of "typhoid" as per my typhoid vaccine before going to work in the bush country of a third world country. Someone died of typhoid while I was there and I ended up being very thankful for those two little shots that made me so sick and miserable!

 

Thank you for bringing to light the true message, that by in large vaxing is a good thing, but for some this is not so and all parents have to make informed judgment calls. Informed choices...something we can all agree is in everyone's best wishes.

 

Faith

[Snowfall]

:confused:

 

Please source the bolded part.

 

I already sourced the pertussis earlier in the thread.

 

Diphtheria vaccine is a toxoid, so it only induces immunity to the toxin produced after infection. That means you can become infected, but you will not get sick, because the bacteria don't make you sick (there are multiple types) - the toxin does (they all produce the same toxin). Look here under "Immunity to Diphtheria": http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/98vol24/24s3/24s3b_e.html The CDC says this: "Symptomatic infection is extremely rare in adequately immunized persons, although active immunization with diphtheria toxoid does not prevent colonization or transient carriage of C. diphtheriae." (emphasis mine) here: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2010/chapter-2/diphtheria.aspx The whole idea of herd immunity is that if you get vaccinated, you can't catch the pathogen and therefore you can't spread it to the unvaccinated. If you can still catch the pathogen, then there is no herd immunity, no matter what anyone claims. There are certainly all sorts of claims about herd immunity to diphtheria. One has to wonder if people are confused about what herd immunity means, believing it simply means that if enough people are vaccinated, then very few people could develop the disease, lol. You can't have herd immunity in a herd where the vaccinated are still passing the causative organism around! The reason we have so few cases of diphtheria among the unvaccinated in America is because diphtheria is mainly a disease of those living with poor sanitation and not enough food in overcrowded conditions, not because all those vaccinated people are protecting us by not catching C. diphtheriae. The CDC says they do catch it.

 

IPV induces serum immunity, so you can still become infected with any of the three polio viruses, because polio lives in the gut mucosa. It does reduce transmission of disease, because it can reduce (not prevent) pharyngeal and fecal shedding of the virus once an individual is infected. http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/162/8/5011 I do not believe it can cause herd immunity, despite claims that it does. If it did, they would stop using OPV and use only IPV, since OPV causes VAPP. They keep using OPV because it can give herd immunity and IPV can't. If they ever eradicate polio they'll switch to IPV everywhere, but not until then. Isn't that evidence enough? You don't use a vaccine that can cause polio to eradicate polio unless your other vaccine doesn't do the job.

 

Anyway, it's all pretty irrelevant, IMO, because I don't thank people for making decisions that have the added effect of benefiting others, when those decisions were made entirely in their own self-interest (. People vaccinate because they believe there is a benefit to themselves and their children, not because they want to protect everyone else. For instance, I will probably complete an IPV series at some point, since I believe IPV has a very, very low rate of reactions. Right now I'm just gunshy, after all we've been through with vaccines. I'll be doing it to protect MY children, though, not to protect YOUR children or anyone else's children. That's why everyone vaccinates. Claiming otherwise is totally dishonest. People do it for their own self-interests and nothing else. They'd do it even if there were no herd, and they don't deserve thanks from the rest of us for simply doing what every good parent does: protecting their children. Their children should thank them one day, not me.

[mirth]

` 

 

[nmoira]

There are certainly all sorts of claims about herd immunity to diphtheria. One has to wonder if people are confused about what herd immunity means, believing it simply means that if enough people are vaccinated, then very few people could develop the disease, lol.

If by "people" you mean research scientists and by extension such bodies as the CDC, then no, I don't wonder whether they are confused. I trust them over the likes of Joe Mercola any day. The only place I've seen herd immunity questioned is on anti-vax sites, "supported" by cherry-picked quotes.

 

You can't have herd immunity in a herd where the vaccinated are still passing the causative organism around!

Yes, a small percentage of the population can be asymptomatic carriers of diphtheria.

 

The reason we have so few cases of diphtheria among the unvaccinated in America is because diphtheria is mainly a disease of those living with poor sanitation and not enough food in overcrowded conditions, not because all those vaccinated people are protecting us by not catching C. diphtheriae. The CDC says they do catch it.

No, the CDC doesn't. Not just anyone "catches" it; see above.

 

IPV induces serum immunity, so you can still become infected with any of the three polio viruses, because polio lives in the gut mucosa. It does reduce transmission of disease, because it can reduce (not prevent) pharyngeal and fecal shedding of the virus once an individual is infected. http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/162/8/5011 I do not believe it can cause herd immunity, despite claims that it does. If it did, they would stop using OPV and use only IPV, since OPV causes VAPP. They keep using OPV because it can give herd immunity and IPV can't. If they ever eradicate polio they'll switch to IPV everywhere, but not until then. Isn't that evidence enough? You don't use a vaccine that can cause polio to eradicate polio unless your other vaccine doesn't do the job.

(Bolding mine.) Well, I do. ;) FWIW, OVP itself does not "cause" VAPP. Occasionally the live virus it contains will revert to an infectious form. So OPV is more effective, but also more risky than IPV... hence the shift to IPV where the wild virus is not a threat. I don't see how this is evidence of anything, much less whether or not the concept of herd/community immunity applies to polio.

[Impish]

Wow. Uh...thanks. Sheesh. :glare:

:iagree:

[TravelingChris]

ALl of this reminded me that I need to get my oldest daughter her flu vaccine today. We are all too busy to take two weeks off to be sick. And with me, if anyone got the flu, I could get it from the close contact and then I would be hospitalized. Certainly not a good way to spend government money in these tough times and not my idea of fun anyway.

[Perry]

The whole idea of herd immunity is that if you get vaccinated, you can't catch the pathogen and therefore you can't spread it to the unvaccinated. If you can still catch the pathogen, then there is no herd immunity, no matter what anyone claims.

 

I'm an epidemiologist, and I understand herd immunity.

 

Your mistake is the bolded part. Herd immunity is the idea that when enough people are vaccinated it provides protection for those who aren't immune. Herd immunity can still occur when people are colonized or infected, as long as transmission rates are low. For example, with bacterial diseases, immunity rates need to be higher to prevent transmission, because of carrier states and colonization. It isn't impossible to have herd immunity, it's just harder.

 

Transmission rates are generally lower with asymptomatic infections, although they still occur.

 

Herd immunity does NOT mean no one gets the illness or it isn't transmitted at all. It means transmission is interrupted and slowed, preventing epidemics.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Perry