Illustrating the damage of lying

[Jean in Newcastle]

My dd is a liar. I don't mean that she lies occasionally as we all do. I mean that it is becoming part of her character enough so that I cannot trust what she says. I am thinking of having her do something like hammer in 10 nails into a board and then pull them out so that she sees that lies leave a mark on the relationship. What I want to show her in a concrete way is that lies damage trust, and that telling the truth can slowly build up trust. (And even though this is not part of what I want to discuss - I will say right here in case someone asks, that she does not lie because she's so afraid of what will happen if she tells the truth. She often lies when there would be absolutely no reason not to tell the truth.) And yes, I know that one concrete lesson won't necessarily change her habits but I really want to do all I can to get through to her.

[Sophia]

That sounds like a great idea, Jean.

[JudoMom]

How wonderful that her lies are being revealed so you can deal with them. I think your idea is great. The only thing I might suggest is having her pound & pull a nail every time you know she's lied to keep reinforcing the damage, and maybe have her fill a hole and sand it every time she tells the truth, so she can see the relationship being repaired when she's honest.

 

:grouphug:

[secular_mom]

Maybe you could use Jenga blocks or something similar too. I'm not sure if you're asking for other ideas here or not. JIC, you could build the block tower, and then have her remove one for each lie she has told today/this week/etc. Then she can see that she is not only making holes in your foundation of trust each time she lies, but that each hole is eating away at it so much that the whole structure of trust she has built with you is in danger of total collapse. Just a thought. Is she a hands on learner?

[oldskool]

We are dealing with this issue too. It baffles me. Especially when it is over things that have no reason to be lied about. I had a very long conversation (lecture) yesterday with dd about it, but I can't tell if it will help because we have discussed it before and somehow it creeps back. What scares me is that the lies have become so frequent that I think she at times convinces herself that it is truth. I like the idea about the board and nails. Maybe a visual will help her to understand. :grouphug:

 

Lesley

[Jean in Newcastle]

Maybe you could use Jenga blocks or something similar too. I'm not sure if you're asking for other ideas here or not. JIC, you could build the block tower, and then have her remove one for each lie she has told today/this week/etc. Then she can see that she is not only making holes in your foundation of trust each time she lies, but that each hole is eating away at it so much that the whole structure of trust she has built with you is in danger of total collapse. Just a thought. Is she a hands on learner?

 

Yes, I'm looking for other ideas.

 

Yes, she is a hands on learner. And she's still so concrete that if I say, "You tell 'em" to show agreement with something, she says "I already did!"

[Chris in VA]

This may not be what you are going for, and could even undermine trust, so take with a grain of salt--

I recall Dr. Laura's lying cure--Her son was lying over and over, so she told him one morning that she'd take him to McDonald's after school. He was thrilled and excited (go figure...lol). When she picked him up, she drove him straight home. Confused, he said, "I thought we were going to McDonald's!"

She replied, "I lied."

[GWOB]

:bigear: My dd lies as well. We are addressing it as best we can, but I'd love some new ideas.

[Aggie]

This may not be what you are going for, and could even undermine trust, so take with a grain of salt--

I recall Dr. Laura's lying cure--Her son was lying over and over, so she told him one morning that she'd take him to McDonald's after school. He was thrilled and excited (go figure...lol). When she picked him up, she drove him straight home. Confused, he said, "I thought we were going to McDonald's!"

She replied, "I lied."

 

This crossed my mind when dd was going through this. I never actually did it, but I asked her what she would think if Mom and Dad lied like this.

 

What I ended up doing was tomato-staking. I kept dd with me all day every day. She never had the opportunity to lie. She couldn't go anywhere or do anything without me. If I was in the bathroom, she had to stand right outside the door. We talked constantly about character issues.

 

It wasn't easy or convenient, but it worked.

 

Since my dd was involved in dance, she wasn't allowed to go to classes during this. After all, if she lied to me, I'm sure she'd lie to her dance teacher. :(

[katilac]

This may not be what you are going for, and could even undermine trust, so take with a grain of salt--

I recall Dr. Laura's lying cure--Her son was lying over and over, so she told him one morning that she'd take him to McDonald's after school. He was thrilled and excited (go figure...lol). When she picked him up, she drove him straight home. Confused, he said, "I thought we were going to McDonald's!"

She replied, "I lied."

 

oooh, snap!

[kwickimom]

I just want to say YEAH to you for being proactive. I have a 35 year old friend who STILL does this. It causes major damage. She is lying about her health and it is going to put her in the hospital or maybe worse one day. I only wish her mother would have stopped it long ago. :grouphug:. I cant stand liars and I will be doing whatever I can to stop it in my children if it ever happens. I will be mentally filing away suggestions here.

[KidsHappen]

I have a question that makes a major difference in how you handle the problem. Is she aware that she is lying? Or does she honestly believe what she is saying. I have a child who has a tendency to lie. She would often do something and when I would call her on it she would say that she did not do whatever, even if it happened five seconds ago and I was standing right there watching her do it. Since I have obvious problems with spaciness and the onset of senility she was convinced that it was me that had the problem so I had other people get involved and even still when several people would say she said something she would swear up and down that we misunderstood her or were out to get her. Finally we took to video taping her and when she would see it with her own eyes, she still wouldn't believe it. She would swear that that was not the way things happened and that we had altered the video to trick her. This is quite a different problem that a child who knows that they are lying and has to be handle a different way.

[BMW]

I asked once about lying to my boys so that they could see how it felt to be lied to. I got a lot of "never lie to your kids" responses.

 

But, what DID happen was pretty cool. One of the boys lies a lot about others in the family, to try to get them into trouble. So, our fly swatter had broke apart and was sitting near the edge of the table. The boys came in and someone asked, "Why broke the flyswatter?" So, I immediately blamed the boy who lies about his siblings. He stood there looking shocked. He said he didn't. I immediately said, "No, you didn't. I did. But, I just said that to show you how it feels when you lie about things to get your brothers in trouble. That really got his attention.

 

I took a few days right around that time and looked for opportunities to continue the lesson. I don't remember what all I did, but there was a lot of discussing the lies and how it affects the family. I also will not listen to their "explanations". I stop them and say, "I am sorry. You have lied to me so often that I cannot listen to what you have to say regarding this." Then they usually sulk and I ask them, "Am I wrong or right about this? Have you lied to me a lot?" And they say, "Yeah." Then I tell them, "Okay, now you have to live with me not having trust in what you say."

 

It has improved a bit. And when they tell the truth, I really, really praise them for it and give lots of hugs and show them how it builds our relationship.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have a question that makes a major difference in how you handle the problem. Is she aware that she is lying? Or does she honestly believe what she is saying. I have a child who has a tendency to lie. She would often do something and when I would call her on it she would say that she did not do whatever, even if it happened five seconds ago and I was standing right there watching her do it. Since I have obvious problems with spaciness and the onset of senility she was convinced that it was me that had the problem so I had other people get involved and even still when several people would say she said something she would swear up and down that we misunderstood her or were out to get her. Finally we took to video taping her and when she would see it with her own eyes, she still wouldn't believe it. She would swear that that was not the way things happened and that we had altered the video to trick her. This is quite a different problem that a child who knows that they are lying and has to be handle a different way.

 

She knows she is lying. This morning it was "Did you remember to put out the dogs?" She said that she'd go downstairs and check. (No problem there. If the dogs were in, all she had to do was to put them out. No recriminations from me or anyone else.) I could hear her go down and put the dogs out (they are not quiet!) She then came up and told me that they had already been out. I looked at her and told her that she lied to me, that I heard her put them out. Then it was tears and admitting that she had lied.:crying: Today was a benign example. Not all occasions are so benign. It is the habitual nature of her lying that is the problem more than the lies themselves, if that makes sense.

[Impish]

One suggestion I have is something I heard of from folks who do foster care. Its called a Truth Jar.

 

Get a big jar/see through container. Fill it with cotton balls (or anything else would work, really). When she lies, you immediately remove whatever proportion of the contents you feel is appropriate to illustrate the amt of trust you've lost with her.

 

The kicker is, she sees immediately what's lost...and the length of time it takes to refill the jar. Gradually refill it as she earns trust. There's no 'automatic refill'. The jar can sit empty for weeks if need be. It needs to be kept somewhere highly visible. There's no arguing or drama with the adding or subtracting of contents, just you quietly managing the contents.

[Denisemomof4]

I have told my kids MANY times that lies break down trust, and then when you tell the truth, you may not be believed. All of them have suffered the consequence of my not trusting them.

:grouphug: I know how frustrating this is. I just heard an UNBELIEVABLE news story that said the average kid lies every 90 minutes. REALLY??!!!!:eek: It also said that ALL kids lie but not all get caught. I do believe this. Usually kids lie so they won't get in trouble, but there are other reasons, too. It's SO frustrating. I have a feeling you're like me, Jean: Honesty at all costs. If there's ONE thing I hate, it's dishonestly. :sad:

[Jean in Newcastle]

If there's ONE thing I hate, it's dishonestly. :sad:

 

Part of it is that I know first hand the dangers of lying becoming a habit. My nephew is in jail right now and much of it is due to him being a pathological liar. Not all due to that of course, but it has had a huge effect on his life and that of our family.

 

I'm not saying mind you that having a child with a lying problem = them ending up in jail. But I am saying that the habits you start as children can grow into very big problems in adulthood if they are not addressed in some way. But of course so much of it is out of my hands. She has her own volition and chooses her own path, even while I try to direct as much as I can.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[kathkath]

This crossed my mind when dd was going through this. I never actually did it, but I asked her what she would think if Mom and Dad lied like this.

 

What I ended up doing was tomato-staking. I kept dd with me all day every day. She never had the opportunity to lie. She couldn't go anywhere or do anything without me. If I was in the bathroom, she had to stand right outside the door. We talked constantly about character issues.

 

It wasn't easy or convenient, but it worked.

 

Since my dd was involved in dance, she wasn't allowed to go to classes during this. After all, if she lied to me, I'm sure she'd lie to her dance teacher. :(

 

I met a lady at baskin robbins who told me she did that with her daughter at br very successfully.

[justamouse]

no advice, just :grouphug::grouphug:

[Sputterduck]

It makes a lot of sense for her to hammer a nail in every time she lies and after awhile let her pull them out to see the damage done.

 

I would also explain to her how much her lying has changed the relationship between the two of you. 8 is not too young to hear that.

[LG Gone Wild]

I have a question that makes a major difference in how you handle the problem. Is she aware that she is lying? Or does she honestly believe what she is saying. I have a child who has a tendency to lie. She would often do something and when I would call her on it she would say that she did not do whatever, even if it happened five seconds ago and I was standing right there watching her do it. Since I have obvious problems with spaciness and the onset of senility she was convinced that it was me that had the problem so I had other people get involved and even still when several people would say she said something she would swear up and down that we misunderstood her or were out to get her. Finally we took to video taping her and when she would see it with her own eyes, she still wouldn't believe it. She would swear that that was not the way things happened and that we had altered the video to trick her. This is quite a different problem that a child who knows that they are lying and has to be handle a different way.

 

OMGosh. My son is like that. I truly wonder if he is deranged. :glare:

[LG Gone Wild]

Part of it is that I know first hand the dangers of lying becoming a habit. My nephew is in jail right now and much of it is due to him being a pathological liar. Not all due to that of course, but it has had a huge effect on his life and that of our family.

 

I'm not saying mind you that having a child with a lying problem = them ending up in jail. But I am saying that the habits you start as children can grow into very big problems in adulthood if they are not addressed in some way. But of course so much of it is out of my hands. She has her own volition and chooses her own path, even while I try to direct as much as I can.

 

I hear you. I have a family member that is a pathological liar as well. It pains me to think my ds has this habit and could be heading in that direction.

[LauraGB]

My dd is a liar. I don't mean that she lies occasionally as we all do. I mean that it is becoming part of her character enough so that I cannot trust what she says. I am thinking of having her do something like hammer in 10 nails into a board and then pull them out so that she sees that lies leave a mark on the relationship. What I want to show her in a concrete way is that lies damage trust, and that telling the truth can slowly build up trust. (And even though this is not part of what I want to discuss - I will say right here in case someone asks, that she does not lie because she's so afraid of what will happen if she tells the truth. She often lies when there would be absolutely no reason not to tell the truth.) And yes, I know that one concrete lesson won't necessarily change her habits but I really want to do all I can to get through to her.

 

I think that's a brilliant idea.

 

At this age, natural consequences become inevitable because they are more involved with others and the fall out is a nasty lesson to learn.

 

I have had this problem with ds on occasion, and, seriously, the worst thing my family can do to me is lie to me - I have very little forgiveness in this area of human nature. He's done it enough for me to question nearly everything he says or does. The other night the power went out because we had terrible winds. When I woke up, my bedside clock was blinking. I went to the kitchen to check the clock there; ds was sitting at the dining room table, reading a comic book, having finished his breakfast and all his chores (which rarely happens without constant reminders). The kitchen clock (digital) read 7:45. I checked the dining room wall clock (battery operated) and it said the same thing. I was relieved because we usually start school around 830a, and without my alarm, I would be almost certain to oversleep. We talked a bit about the power outage while I poured a cup of coffee. He said he set the kitchen clock to match the dining room one. I thought - wow, that was nice and very responsible of him. Then I went to my room to drink my coffee and check the news on the computer.

It was 10am.

Seriously.

I immediately assumed he reset the clocks so he could have a leisurely morning and pull a fast one; that's very much his style. He denied it. Over and over. No way did I believe him. He was distraught; near tears with the "Mom! Really!"s. I sent him to his room until I was ready to call him for school.

 

It turns out that the battery in the wall clock was dying. The time was in fact wrong because of that. He saw that clock, set the other clock and thought he did a good thing.

 

I did apologize, but I also had to make it a point that since he's lied so many times about things (and not even good things - silly, stupid things that almost really don't even count, but enough to add up to a change in the trust dynamic), and adamantly refuted them even when shown proof that I know, how could I have believed him? It was a good discussion, but a stinky one, none the less - for both of us.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I also had to make it a point that since he's lied so many times about things (and not even good things - silly, stupid things that almost really don't even count, but enough to add up to a change in the trust dynamic), and adamantly refuted them even when shown proof that I know, how could I have believed him? It was a good discussion, but a stinky one, none the less - for both of us.

 

We've had this stinky discussion. The problem is that my trust has been so abused that I'm not quite sure how she can show me that I can trust her now. That sounds so horrible. But when she's right next to me, it isn't a trust issue. It's when she's out of my sight that it is.

[Lucy in Australia]

I think you are absolutely right to stomp on this right now. We had the beginnings of this problem years ago (it still resurfaces now and again) and I really didn't know what to do. So, for better or worse, I told my son that since I never knew when he might be lying, I wouldn't be able to believe him or trust him anymore. So he would tell me he had finished his chores and I would make a big deal of checking every little job. If I had to do it in front of other people, I did it. He was mortified, but it still took some time before he realised he couldn't lie, not ever, if he wanted us to trust him.

 

BTW, if I'd thought of the McDonald's thing, I would have done it. I'd say that would have cured him on the spot :)

[Alyce]

Have you considered having her see a therapist. There might be some underlying issue that is causing her to do this. Although the nail in the board is okay it really won't show her how her lying others, at least from what you've described. She will probably just interpret it as another punishment that she has to go through and will probably not connect the two. There needs to be a more concrete way to show her how lying affects people. If she's old enough now about having her participate in a prison ministry where she can see the direct results of what happens when we do things that are wrong.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Have you considered having her see a therapist. There might be some underlying issue that is causing her to do this. Although the nail in the board is okay it really won't show her how her lying others, at least from what you've described. She will probably just interpret it as another punishment that she has to go through and will probably not connect the two. There needs to be a more concrete way to show her how lying affects people. If she's old enough now about having her participate in a prison ministry where she can see the direct results of what happens when we do things that are wrong.

 

I've been to prisons - both for adults and for juveniles. She is definitely not old enough to participate in such a ministry. The kinds of things you are exposed to there can be quite difficult.

 

But I do see how she could interpret the board thing as just another punishment.

[hana]

She knows she is lying. This morning it was "Did you remember to put out the dogs?" She said that she'd go downstairs and check. (No problem there. If the dogs were in, all she had to do was to put them out. No recriminations from me or anyone else.) I could hear her go down and put the dogs out (they are not quiet!) She then came up and told me that they had already been out. I looked at her and told her that she lied to me, that I heard her put them out. Then it was tears and admitting that she had lied.:crying: Today was a benign example. Not all occasions are so benign. It is the habitual nature of her lying that is the problem more than the lies themselves, if that makes sense.

 

 

I don't have anything worthwhile to add, but I do wonder whether she is a perfectionist. As you said, there would be no recrimination if she hadn't already put out the dogs, but do you think she was upset with herself that she had not? As a child, I didn't lie a lot, but I think I sometimes lied even when I didn't "have" to because I was disappointed in myself, and somehow lying made it at least seem to others that I had done something right.

[Tree House Academy]

I have little advice, but have seen this same thing, at times (meaning he will go through "spells" where he is caught in several lies in a row) with my youngest son. This past Christmas, he stole an ornament from my tree, hid it from me under his bed, and then lied about how it got there when I found it. We talked about God and how mcuh his action was against God's will. We read the 10 commandments and found passages in the Bible about lying. This seemed to help him. I really like the idea of doing something concrete though and I will definitely store that away for future use! Let us know how it turns out and if you see any difference or a big "aha" moment.

[LauraGB]

Jean, I forget - is dd your 13 year old or your 8 year old (I feel like it's the 13 year old, but it seems like you had an 11 year old just the other day :rolleyes:...)?

Edited October 29, 2010 by LauraGB

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean, I forget - is dd your 13 year old or your 8 year old (I feel like it's the 13 year old, but it seems like you had an 11 year old just the other day :rolleyes:...)?

 

My 8 (almost 9) year old.

[mom4him]

My dd is a liar. I don't mean that she lies occasionally as we all do. I mean that it is becoming part of her character enough so that I cannot trust what she says. I am thinking of having her do something like hammer in 10 nails into a board and then pull them out so that she sees that lies leave a mark on the relationship. What I want to show her in a concrete way is that lies damage trust, and that telling the truth can slowly build up trust. (And even though this is not part of what I want to discuss - I will say right here in case someone asks, that she does not lie because she's so afraid of what will happen if she tells the truth. She often lies when there would be absolutely no reason not to tell the truth.) And yes, I know that one concrete lesson won't necessarily change her habits but I really want to do all I can to get through to her.

Awesome idea. I may steal it. LOL

One concrete lesson may not do the trick but if everytime she lyes she has to repeat the drill with possibly a couple more nails and with the lesson of, can you see how that lye damaged our relationship even more?

[Wildiris]

I have so much experience with this topic that I am embarrassed. So I am saying this with a bit of hide-sight; nonetheless, the issue maybe much more than what you see as surface level lying. Telling the truth is so much easier, but somewhere, somehow kids learn that lying is better than the truth.

 

The first place you need to look is to yourself. Few people tell the truth all the time. Little white lies slip in a conversation. Perhaps you don't want to hurt someones feelings so you shield them from the truth. The problem is your kids are always watching. So while you are "being nice," you are in fact lying. There is a chapter on lying in Nurture Shock that backs up this idea with social science.

 

My kids usually lie for no good reason when:

 

• They're just being lazy
  

 

 

 

• They don't want to hear the lecture now = Don't talk at me so much
  

 

 

 

• What you don't know won't make you go ballistic. Hence I don't want another long conversation about the truth.
  

 

Try to catch your daughter being good. Openly acknowledge that she made a choice to consciously not lie when you asked her if she let the dogs out. (She may not have made the choice, but you did noticed that she didn't lie.) In my opinion, praise for doing the right thing may be more effective than punishment for a transgression.

 

:grouphug:

[LauraGB]

My 8 (almost 9) year old.

 

Then I wonder if it's just one of those awful stages kids go through. Dd pulled it around that age, too, but not nearly to the extent that ds has - he's still going through it :glare:. With dd, I could call her on it, punish her accordingly (no tv, no phone, etc) and still be surprised if it happened again. With ds, he started around 8, it blew out of proportion around 9 and 10, and we're finally getting on reasonable ground at 11 (the clock story, and then some).

 

Likely and hopefully growth and maturity from her end and a strong momma helps it disappear over time.

 

:grouphug:

[cin]

I just had a thought about the nails in the board. Have her nail them right next to each other, and then pull them out. The lie is said, and the pulling out represents you discovering it. If they are done close enough, the holes will affect the integrity of the board, and it will eventually break. Just as the lies are affecting your relationship with her.

 

I also agree with PP who said something about examining WHY she might be lying. I started lying when I was a youngster. I was an only child and my mom was EXTREMELY overprotective. I lied so I could do stuff other kids in our neighborhood were doing. Some of the activities were acceptable, some were not. In addition, my mom did NOT trust me. At All. And I don't think it had to do with lying. It was just the way she was. >sigh< So yeah, I lied, in a way, for survival. The problem is, once you start, it is SO HARD to quit. Here I am 30-35 yrs later, and I still find myself 'hiding the truth' every now and then.

 

Just some random thoughts from a (almost) reformed liar. ;)

[joannqn]

Thanks! I'm stealing the board and nails idea for a different purpose.

 

DS8 doesn't talk to DS3 all that nicely. DS3 does not like his older brother much as a result. So, every time we catch DS8 doing or saying something not nice to his brother, he can pound a nail in the board to represent injury to their relationship. When he says he's sorry, he can pull the nail out and see the injury is still there. When he does something nice, he can fill in the hole with wood putty to show repairing the damage. I might allow him to refill the hole only after he's done 3 nice things, perhaps, to illustrate that it is harder to repair the damage than do the damage.

[ShutterBug]

I think the best way to impress upon her the damage lying can cause is to tell her a huge lie and then let her stew about how it feels.

 

Tell her you're taking her to Disney. Then on the day of tell her sorry..you lied.

 

I know, it's mean, but I think it's the quickest way to get your point across.

[Aggie]

Jean,

 

I've been thinking more about this today. Would you consider nailing your dd's favorite shirt to the board? It occurred to me that just seeing the damage to the board might not make an impact on her. It's just a board, ya know?

 

She might, though, see the damage when it's a possession and something dear to her.

 

OTOH, it might make her angry and resentful.

 

Just thinking out loud here. :)

[Nestof3]

:grouphug: Our oldest always struggled with lying. I have never had as much trouble with that with our younger two, though Ben does pull the "I forgot" thing very often.

 

I wish I could tell you what worked for us. I think our oldest would still lie if he felt he needed to. He always lied because he didn't want to "get in trouble" -- even if trouble wasn't horrible, just setting something right. He also struggled more with sneaking.

 

But, he was not mouthy like the younger boys, so I guess it's a tradeoff. ugh

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I've been thinking more about this today.

 

That makes two of us:D

 

OK - in thinking this over, I've realized that in wanting her to see the impact of lying, I really want her to see how she is making a choice. And in making that particular choice, there are invisible consequences to the relationship. The main invisible consequence I want her to see is the erosion of trust, not so much how it makes me feel (since I see that as a choice on my part anyway).

 

So for that reason I do not want to lie to her in any way to make her feel badly. And since I think it is important for her safety and well-being for her to be able to always trust me, I do not want to lie to her in order for her to see how that makes me untrustworthy.

 

I like the ideas that include an element of regaining trust (using wood putty is one, the cotton balls in the jar is another). I think that this might help me too by helping me to see concretely when she actually is telling the truth, thus helping me to trust her more.

[Nestof3]

With my younger boys, I remind them of the boy who cried wolf story. I explain that they are breaking the trust, and that it hurts our relationship. They may need me to believe them one day.

 

If they are lying so that I won't know they didn't do something, then we go directly there, because that is the real problem. It takes a lot of work to keep kids from being self-centered. I know Ben loves me to pieces, but I still have to remind him that he is not the pampered prince.

[Natalieclare]

I have a child with a lying problem. I have no idea why this child struggles with this. It seems so unnecessary to me.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

Often when I asked her "what happened?" the story was pretty much whatever her fancy determined it to be! It was so frustrating to try to get to the bottom of things. :tongue_smilie: One day I was struggling to come up with the words to explain truth to my (then) preschooler when the phrase "tell me the storythat God saw" popped into my head. It kinda brought her up short to realize that reality would not bend to her imagination!

 

I don't have much in the way of ideas of concrete lessons, but I do have a story to suggest. It's called Someone Sees You; it's in the Children's Book of Virtues (the one with illustrations--probably at a Goodwill near you, if you don't already have it.) For my kids, it's been good to remember that their lies don't go unnoticed even if I am not the one catching them!

 

I also have my kids memorize the verse Proverbs 28:13:

 

He who conceals his sin does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

 

So, I dole out punishments according to this verse. If a kid lies to me, the punishment is going to be far more unpleasant than if the truth had been told. In addition, if a confession is made, I likely will not punish at all. I guess that's as close as I am going to get to having a concrete idea for you!

 

It's a good thing these little ones of ours with this problem are so darned charming, talented, and otherwise magnificent--or I don't know what!!!!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I

I don't have much in the way of ideas of concrete lessons, but I do have a story to suggest. It's called Someone Sees You; it's in the Children's Book of Virtues (the one with illustrations--probably at a Goodwill near you, if you don't already have it.) For my kids, it's been good to remember that their lies don't go unnoticed even if I am not the one catching them!

 

I also have my kids memorize the verse Proverbs 28:13:

 

He who conceals his sin does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

 

 

It's a good thing these little ones of ours with this problem are so darned charming, talented, and otherwise magnificent--or I don't know what!!!!

 

Good suggestions, Natalieclare. And I do have that book! (BTW - we need to make a Goodwill run together sometime:001_smile:)

 

And you are so right, that they are charming, talented and magnificent. And I love them to pieces.

[ReidFamily]

I'm sure that this is an unnecessary post but I will add it, just in case.

 

I used to lie all the time. All of the time and for no good reason, like you said. I also became a very good writer because of the ability to concoct amazingly believable lies, but that is not my point.

 

Now that I am older and understand so much more of who I was then and who I am now and much of how I came to be who I am I realize that the abuse I was subjected to as a child is a result of the need to lie.

 

I was sexually molested as a child and had to live with my abuser for the rest of my life. It only happened once but it changed my whole life. We were an otherwise outwardly normal family and my parents were very well respected (and still are) to this day. In order to preserve any sense of sanity I think I developed an amazing ability to tell lies. I hardly ever, ever got caught. I was good at it. It was a survival skill. Because the most important lie was to forget and believe that what happened, never did. That way I could go on hugging, talking and playing with my abuser until in adulthood I had to actually grieve and experience the pain and hurt of what actually happened. Don't get me started on our backwards judicial system and how there is no way to socially punish him for what he did.

 

I hope and pray that her lying has absolutely nothing to do with abuse in any form but I have noticed as I have interacted with more women throughout my life that it is a common trait. Especially for those who have adapted well to life and lead, for the most part, healthy stable lives. Abuse is amazingly rampant. Seriously, it's disgusting. I meet women all the time and without any words I can usually feel it. It's there, hiding. Usually after knowing them for awhile it comes out or after I share my past they admit their own abuse. I will tell you that out of all of the many women I have met (and I am white, upper middle class...abuse crosses ALL boundaries, race and economic status) none of their abusers have ever been prosecuted, been in a courtroom or spent a night in jail.

 

Sigh.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry if my post offends you or others. Abuse is hard for many people to talk about but that needs to change. I believe a lot of the reason that abuse continues to plague our society is because people WON'T talk about it. It's an ugly topic so people want to turn the other way and not hear about it and it is very hush hush. Or they want to believe it could NEVER happen to them. My mom would have never guessed and we were really, really close.

 

So, I hope your daughter's lying has a different source but all though it is important to address the character issue make sure you find the source. It is important to know *why* she is lying not just how to change it. I have not researched lying enough to know other causes but it would probably be worth some research.

[ReidFamily]

One more thing. And I think this helps all children that tend to lie.

 

Help them become writers. Teach them that making up things and purporting it as truth to people in real life is not okay. That is a lie. Tell them that if they want to do the same thing and write it down as a story, then they are writing and become an author.

 

This is how I help my 5 year old. She is becoming a very creative and talented writer. She narrates her stories and I write them down. I allow her to use our names and the situations we've been in and she can embellish, lie or what not all she wants as long as it is written as a "story". This has really helped her decipher between when it's okay to say whatever you want and when you need to stick with what actually happened.

[Ester Maria]

I also became a very good writer because of the ability to concoct amazingly believable lies, but that is not my point.

Same here :D, but thankfully there was no abuse whatsoever involved in my case when I was a young child. I also became a pretty good critic (literary and theatre) afterwards, because I could just grasp the "ontological nature" of fiction and of verosimile very well, as well as handle the fluid ground of "possible" between truth and lie.

 

Now this might be a very different POV than most presented here, but... Lying is a sign of intelligence. Yep, you read that correctly. Parents are usually very upset when they catch their toddlers lying for the first time, without understanding what a huge developmental milestone the discovery of lying actually is - imagine, you have such a small child, a child that barely started to organize their world into concepts, and that already grasped a remarkable ability: of telling something which isn't. Just like thinking in concepts is a sign of abstract thinking (the ability to produce a category, to point to a different "glass" after lots of various glasses seen, i.e. to extract the essence and apply it to other things which have it), lying is even more so. Young children essentially learn through lies - a situation of a "game" is, essentially, fictitious; the mixing of lies and truth is actually developmentally expectable from all children who still play, who still learn about the world through the structure of plays.

 

The problem is that you're approaching her lying from an adult perspective, the one which still isn't hers. Yes, this is the age at which parents should gently begin with the discernment, if it hasn't occurred naturally by that age, and with making children understand that real life isn't a play situation, that what they say has actual impact on the world, but you can't accuse most children from approaching it as if it were a play situation, since most children do approach the world from an "as if" perspective, even if not so drastic. Now, some kids are more imaginative than others, and thus "better" at that playing than others, they do it longer, but generally, prior to double-digits it's not that worrisome, really. The best thing you could do is probably to take a humoristic approach to the whole thing, actually, and not stress over it that much. "You didn't do it, do it now", and that's it. No dramatic formulations of "lost trust" or whatnot. Let her grow out of it on her own, unless you believe it's a symptom of something deeper. Within a year or so, it should pass anyway, tweens and teens are already a lot more different with regards to their relationship to real life than younger children. Eight year olds are still pretty much big size toddlers when it comes to certain things.

 

Truth is simplicity. Lying is a far more complex scheme than telling the truth, it involves a specific "cooking" of informations that make the truth, always keep that in mind. What seems to you simple is, in fact, as complex a process as humorism is (that's a whole other topic, but basically, humorism is very very similar in that aspect, and the particular way of manipulating the facts it involves is probably a sign of intelligence par excellence). And as an adult, you know what it means in real adult life, and how people can complicate their lives with lying, but it's not even realistic to expect an 8yo to understand that.

Also note, an 8yo copies the world around her. She probably sees you lying all the time, whenever you're "being polite" for example. She concludes that lying is an acceptable means to interact with the world in certain instances - she just hasn't found a balance yet. She applies it maximally to her context, it takes time to also soak up the notions of culturally acceptable, "white lies", etc.

 

In all honesty, I would be worried if lying weren't in my daughters' toolbox of possible interactions with the world - it would be developmentally wrong at certain stages, and at later stages, it would be socially odd, rude or potentially dangerous in some situations as well. Yes, children should absolutely be taught ethics, but there are still many many cases in which what's societally ethical actually doesn't coincide with the theory, and in which what's ethical costs you a friendship, a life, a serious danger. Those are some subtleties that are mastered at later ages, though, but IMO it's important to recognize it with children as well.

 

I don't know, maybe it's a "professional deformation" for me as somebody who professionally dealt with fiction, but I take a lot more lax approach to lying at those developmental stages. Children play, and often take it too far. Adults play too, but adults call it "reading for pleasure (read: escapism)", "engaging in a theatre show", "creative writing" or whatnot. It's all imagination and it's all dealing with the fictitious, but we know where to draw the line. It takes some time to reach it for kids, though. A lot of younger children are still trapped in play=world way of thinking, even if they seem like perfectly reasonable little creatures to you. It takes a bit to separate the two for real, even if they play with that separation a lot and are cognitively aware of what's going on.

 

Kids who have special problems doing so, once they do it, will often retain some of the magic of the intertwined and the ability to shift. Those kids often make great writers, actors, psychologists (= the ability to "enter" somebody else's shoes), critics, and imagination also helps in a whole lot of other fields where it's not the crucial ingredient as in those professions.

 

So, while I agree you should actively talk to her about it and not pretend you're buying what she's saying, and find ways to channel her creativity into something, I don't agree with the "nip it in the bud" approach for what's probably just a normal developmental stage. If it goes on for years, though, then absolutely address it.

 

8yos are funny beings, at the same time so literal and so imaginative, so concrete and so abstract, big-size toddlers in some aspects and nearly teens in other aspects, at the same time rational and a negation of rationality... I tried to relax as much as I can and laugh over it as much as I can, dealing with it in a more joking fashion. :001_smile:

And they grow out of it, naturally, as any intelligent person that I know of does, and channels the imagination someplace else, taking a rational approach to the world. At 8, it's usually not a pathology and it shouldn't be addressed as such either.

[Lisa in Jax]

This may not be what you are going for, and could even undermine trust, so take with a grain of salt--

I recall Dr. Laura's lying cure--Her son was lying over and over, so she told him one morning that she'd take him to McDonald's after school. He was thrilled and excited (go figure...lol). When she picked him up, she drove him straight home. Confused, he said, "I thought we were going to McDonald's!"

She replied, "I lied."

 

IMHO, *I* wouldn't lie to the child, I'd make the child feel the effect of her lies. To do this, wait until the CHILD asks for a specific item for breakfast/snack, etc., then present a DIFFERENT item to eat. When she says, "Hey Mom, I asked for X, but I got Y," Mom says, "Oh. I thought you were lying when you asked for X."

 

The trick is to say nothing else but "Oh, I thought you were lying when you asked for X" and NOTHING else. Don't replace the food for the asked-for item or explain. Let the child think through what it means.

 

Lisa

[Lisa in Jax]

One suggestion I have is something I heard of from folks who do foster care. Its called a Truth Jar.

 

Get a big jar/see through container. Fill it with cotton balls (or anything else would work, really). When she lies, you immediately remove whatever proportion of the contents you feel is appropriate to illustrate the amt of trust you've lost with her.

 

The kicker is, she sees immediately what's lost...and the length of time it takes to refill the jar. Gradually refill it as she earns trust. There's no 'automatic refill'. The jar can sit empty for weeks if need be. It needs to be kept somewhere highly visible. There's no arguing or drama with the adding or subtracting of contents, just you quietly managing the contents.

 

I. LOVE. THIS. I'm going to use this the next time we see that DS is struggling with the truth. Thank you! :)

Edited October 29, 2010 by Lisa in Jax

[Haiku]

I am thinking of having her do something like hammer in 10 nails into a board and then pull them out so that she sees that lies leave a mark on the relationship.

 

I don't know whether you are talking about the 13 year old or the 8 year old, but hammering nails doesn't seem very concrete to me. It seems rather abstract and, honestly, odd. I think your dd would view it as just a weird punishment.

 

My oldest dd (now 16) was a terrible liar when she came to us. She did what we called "crazy lying" about the weirdest, most transparent things. My "concrete" method of showing her its affects was to say, when she asked me for certain privileges, "I'm sorry. I'd really like to let you do that, but that privilege requires maturity and honesty, and your lying has shown that you don't have enough of those to handle this privilege right now. Let's talk about it again in a few months."

 

It took my dd several years to outgrow her lying, but she eventually did and even jokes about it now.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I recall Dr. Laura's lying cure--Her son was lying over and over, so she told him one morning that she'd take him to McDonald's after school. He was thrilled and excited (go figure...lol). When she picked him up, she drove him straight home. Confused, he said, "I thought we were going to McDonald's!"

She replied, "I lied."

 

WOW! I have to say that I like that.

 

Tara