Spanking alternatives?

[simka2]

In advance, please let this stay a NICE thread!!!! I am not a huge fan of spanking!!! I need to me upfront about that, I don't want to spank them especially now that they are getting older.

 

So, here's what happened yesterday. Ds8, decides to have a total meltdown over math. Now, were just starting back up our school year...and this is review type stuff. He's also my math whiz, so I know this wasn't a "math" issue. I sent him up to his room where he couldn't disturb the rest of the kids...the fit lasted 3 hours!!!! I mean kicking, screaming, crying...it was incredible!!!! At one point he did all the problems...WRONG!!!! After, the 3 hours...missing recess and other school work. I calmly went up to his room and gave him two swift swats on the behind. I reiterated that it "Stops Now!" and that he could ask me any "real" questions, but just saying "I don't know how!" doesn't count.

 

I then left his room. 10 min later, he calmly came downstairs, math completed with NO errors!!!!! Today, he has been great...no tears, fits or anything!!!!

 

I'm sure I have left out many of the "non-spanking" things I tried in the 3 hours tantrum, but I can't think of them all right now.

 

My question is this...what can I do besides spanking when he gets that upset?

 

PS... he is also grounded from his ds and didn't get to ride his horse last night.

Edited August 17, 2010 by simka2

[WishboneDawn]

Read Barbara Coloroso's book Kid's Are Worth It! It's probably one of the bet parenting books out there if you don't want gimmicky bits of advice but a real, concrete way to start being thoughtful about parenting.

[eternalknot]

My kids are like puppies; a quick hosedown to stun them out of the heat of the moment, then the calming down can begin. (I order them to the shower or bath - lots of times they talk their anger/frustration out in there, but even if they don't it's just a physical thing that starts them calming down. And my kids generally hate showers.)

[amy g.]

I have one that acts that way.

 

I just stay calm, and keep repeating whatever it is she needs to do. I let her wind down. When she is ready to obey, I make sure to give her a lot of love and encouragement.

 

She really is getting better, because I never let her get away with the bad behavior. She has had 3 hour fits, but if I stay calm, and she obeys in the end, I call it a victory.

 

Dh spanked her once. I told him that if I needed to keep her with me at all times, I would be happy to do that, but if he ever spanks one of our children again, it will do significant damage to our marriage.

 

I also focus on role models. I speak nicely to my children, and insist that they be respectful in return.

 

Some people do not like time out, but it woks well for me.

 

My 16 year old worked 2 days in the heat on fencing. Her dog still climbed out the minute she put him in. I happened to ask her a question, when she was frustrated, and she snarked at me. I gave her 2 seconds to apologize and rephrase her question, or she would have been standing in time out with her nose against the barn.

 

I don't know anyone else who still uses time out for teenagers, but it's still helpful for me.

 

I wanted to add, that with my kids, I would not ground for the misbehavior. I make the punishment short term, like staying in his room until he was ready to do his work, but When it is over, it's over. Once he is obeying, I would want to focus on how happy you are with the great day you are having today.

 

just my .2 cents

Edited August 17, 2010 by amy g.

[simka2]

My kids are like puppies; a quick hosedown to stun them out of the heat of the moment, then the calming down can begin. (I order them to the shower or bath - lots of times they talk their anger/frustration out in there, but even if they don't it's just a physical thing that starts them calming down. And my kids generally hate showers.)

 

Great idea!

[simka2]

I have one that acts that way.

 

I just stay calm, and keep repeating whatever it is she needs to do. I let her wind down. When she is ready to obey, I make sure to give her a lot of love and encouragement.

 

She really is getting better, because I never let her get away with the bad behavior. She has had 3 hour fits, but if I stay calm, and she obeys in the end, I call it a victory.

 

Dh spanked her once. I told him that if I needed to keep her with me at all times, I would be happy to do that, but if he ever spanks one of our children again, it will do significant damage to our marriage.

 

I also focus on role models. I speak nicely to my children, and insist that they be respectful in return.

 

Some people do not like time out, but it woks well for me.

 

My 16 year old worked 2 days in the heat on fencing. Her dog still climbed out the minute she put him in. I happened to ask her a question, when she was frustrated, and she snarked at me. I gave her 2 seconds to apologize and rephrase her question, or she would have been standing in time out with her nose against the barn.

 

I don't know anyone else who still uses time out for teenagers, but it's still helpful for me.

 

THis was the best mental pic this morning!!!! I'm sorry, but just pictueing a 16 with her nose against the barn is enough to give me giggles :)

[justamouse]

I think Amy's answer is awesome.

 

Hormones+tired+frustration+anger=meltdown

 

Spanking solves nothing. Amy had it all right.

[violinmom]

Another vote for Kids are Worth It. Great book.

 

As for the OP title - I would call our method the "solving the original problem" method of parenting. We have never spanked, and our 5 children are very well-behaved. Yes, we have limits, no it's not ok to harm others, talk back, etc, etc, etc. Usually when our kids resort to something like that, it's out of frustration and their own immaturity.

 

I sometimes have to remind myself that kids that feel right, act right. They don't just have 3 hour screaming fits for no reason! Maybe it was a math thing? Who knows! :) It can be very hard sometimes to really figure it out. The other thing is that sometimes when they get upset, they have a hard time stopping themselves.

 

I have an 8 yo that can really get herself going. :) Yes, we do have limits, and it would not be ok for her to act that way either, but I have found it took quite a bit of talking it out with her to find out the real problem. It's usually sometimes completely different than I originally thought it was.

 

Good luck!

[daddygeek]

 

gave him two swift swats on the behind. I reiterated that it "Stops Now!" end of quote

 

I still have everything to learn, but I believe you gave your own answer. My philosophy comes from training my dogs, my daughter is still too young to be having these problems. but my philosophy is the quickest easiest way to a solution is neither mean nor cruel. I beat a dog for doing things that were clearly going to get it killed, that was cruel only because it was ineffective. I did some thing that appeared meaner, but totally solved the problem in less than two minutes, that was the kindest thing that anyone could do for the dog.

 

If two swats solves your problem, I can't see how you could do any better.

[rootsnwings]

ummm.... kids aren't dogs! :glare:

[Garga]

I make them be "glued" to me. They are 5 and almost 8 years old.

 

For however long I see fit, they must stay with me everywhere I go. And since they're right there next to me, they have to help me with whatever I'm doing (chores, etc.) Sometimes they just have to sit there while I'm working on something they can't help me with.

 

Is this a big pain for me? Yes. Is it effective? Yes.

 

If they won't be glued (run away) or won't do what I tell them to do (helping with a chore), then that means they need to be glued longer. Everything STOPS and nothing else is done until the boy is quiet and following me around doing as he's told. This step can potentially last a long time, but now I rarely have those sorts of issues. I might get some grumpy stomping, but they will still follow and help as I direct them to.

 

Might not work for everyone, but it works for me. I've never had a boy glued to me for more than an hour or so before he's ready to be civil. And I'm not a harsh disciplinarian. Being glued seems to help center them again and helps our relationship to stay close. I've found that sending them away from me makes them feel pushed away and unloved. But gluing them to me strengthens our bond. I feel it gives out the message that even when they're acting unlovable, I still want them next to me.

 

I do my very best to speak kindly and respectfully as they're glued to me and to ask them nicely to help me with my work. (Even if it's homeschooling the other boy--they can sit quietly, or get me a pencil or whatever as needed, or even turn the page of the book if I need to come up with something for them to do.)

[Farrar]

I don't want to spank them especially now that they are getting older.

 

 

 

Someone once told me that you should always try to avoid using disciplinary solutions your kids will outgrow. They will outgrow spanking, that's for sure.

 

I also thought Amy's post was really good. We try to have consequences that are directly related to the transgression and are in the moment.

 

My kids are a bit younger, but when they get that upset, I always put it back on them. It's my job to create the conditions where they can be safe and loved and can calm down or resolve their problems. It's their job to take advantage of that. With my kids, I've personally left them in their rooms to scream it out - I check in on them and remind them that I'm there if they need me, I offer a hug or some water or something like that. But then I remind them that it's up to them to stop crying - only you can decide to feel better, I can't decide it for you. This helps me not take it personally too - like it's a failure of my parenting. Then, once they're calm, that's when we deal with the problem that caused the tantrum in the first place.

[mo2]

Dh spanked her once. I told him that if I needed to keep her with me at all times, I would be happy to do that, but if he ever spanks one of our children again, it will do significant damage to our marriage.

 

 

 

How did your husband respond to this? I can't imagine one taking it well.

[simka2]

Off track, but this thread is starting to sound like the shelter thread :)

 

Anyway, I really appreciate all the feedback I am getting!!!!

[6packofun]

"When she is ready to obey, I make sure to give her a lot of love and encouragement."

 

"...I never let her get away with the bad behavior. She has had 3 hour fits, but if I stay calm, and she obeys in the end, I call it a victory."

 

 

 

I know that these kinds of kids are tough, but I'm not sure one can say that they don't let a child get away with bad behavior when one gives the CHILD all the time in the world to obey and whenever *they* feel like it. I understand the need for allowing them to learn to control their emotions, putting the choice in their hands...and I certainly know that if a child doesn't want to calm down or can't, no amount of cajoling, punishing, etc. will help at all, BUT, what are the consequences at the very least for acting this way? Is it OK for a child to throw a 3-hour fit just because eventually she stopped? I don't have all the answers and we've rarely spanked over the years, but letting a kid know that their behavior choice was NOT ok is a pretty important step in the discipline process. (How we do that varies from removing privileges to making restitution or simply apologizing very specifically, whatever.)

 

Just adding this comment into the mix; I'm sure you're doing more than just throwing a party when the tantrum stops! LOL ;)

[Tammy]

the signs of 'meltdown' BEFORE they happen....and teach him how to back away and chill out before the big tantrum comes on. Kids have meltdowns because they don't know how to deal with their feelings.

 

.

[daddygeek]

ummm.... kids aren't dogs! :glare:

 

so does that mean that you think the kindest thing you can do for a kid is the least effective not the most?:):001_smile:

[amy g.]

To clarify, my difficult child is my 3 year old. Her fits do not last 3 hours now, but they sure did when she was 2. That's why I said that she is getting better.

 

I told the story about my 16 year old because, given the situation, it was very reasonable for her to be short tempered, but couldn't just let it slide because my 3 year old needs to see that our family no one is ever allowed to be disrespectful.

 

She wants to be like her older siblings, so it is really helpful that they are all very well behaved.

 

I don't have a problem with allowing her as much time as she needs to calm down. Sometimes people, especially children just need time.

 

My husband has been in love with me for 25 years. He knew how I was going to feel. He just said, "I know". I don't think it will ever happen again.

[Quad Shot Academy]

I think teaching kids to cope with frustration is very important. I can see that a review math page after a summer off could be frustrating. I would have had him sit with me as he works until he had confidence. I don't "let" my kids get upset while doing school work. If they are getting frustrated I help them or I tell them to do something else for a while and come back to it. If they start crying I kindly send them to their bed until they can come back with a smile. They know the rule is that they do the work sometime that day. To me, there is no point in doing work with a bad attitude.

:grouphug:

[eclipse]

When my kids have trouble focusing on a subject we are working on, we just move on to something else and come back later. I don't think it's something worth an hours long power struggle about. Aside from that, if my kids feel like spending their time screaming for hours, they're free to do that as long as they do it in their room. I don't see it as a particularly fun or productive use of their time, but if that's how they chose to spend it, it's no skin off my back.

[simka2]

Someone once told me that you should always try to avoid using disciplinary solutions your kids will outgrow. They will outgrow spanking, that's for sure.

 

I also thought Amy's post was really good. We try to have consequences that are directly related to the transgression and are in the moment.

 

My kids are a bit younger, but when they get that upset, I always put it back on them. It's my job to create the conditions where they can be safe and loved and can calm down or resolve their problems. It's their job to take advantage of that. With my kids, I've personally left them in their rooms to scream it out - I check in on them and remind them that I'm there if they need me, I offer a hug or some water or something like that. But then I remind them that it's up to them to stop crying - only you can decide to feel better, I can't decide it for you. This helps me not take it personally too - like it's a failure of my parenting. Then, once they're calm, that's when we deal with the problem that caused the tantrum in the first place.

 

I agree, and this is exactly what I did do. We have also talked many times about copeing skills to help him calm down, appropriate ways of dealing with anger and so forth. :)

 

I think I am more struggleing with the amount of time he was able to keep this up for...and the complete turn around after the spanking. Even though he knew all kinds of things to help himself deal with the emotions...he couldn't MAKE himself do it!

 

So, even though the spanking worked....it's not a route I want to take. Hence the thread! I loved the shower idea, I think now that it's not 115 out I can have him run around the block...but sometimes he needs a shock to the system or a padded sound proof room :) (or maybe I do?) :D

 

Also, please know this isn't a regular thing...more like I few times a year.

I'm not comfortable letting it go like that again...especially when I could see our mail lady looking concerned :glare: Yes, you could hear him from the street...ugggghhhh!

 

Today, he is the model of sweetness!

 

Again, thanks all!

[Sun]

I know that these kinds of kids are tough, but I'm not sure one can say that they don't let a child get away with bad behavior when one gives the CHILD all the time in the world to obey and whenever *they* feel like it. I understand the need for allowing them to learn to control their emotions, putting the choice in their hands...and I certainly know that if a child doesn't want to calm down or can't, no amount of cajoling, punishing, etc. will help at all, BUT, what are the consequences at the very least for acting this way? Is it OK for a child to throw a 3-hour fit just because eventually she stopped? I don't have all the answers and we've rarely spanked over the years, but letting a kid know that their behavior choice was NOT ok is a pretty important step in the discipline process. (How we do that varies from removing privileges to making restitution or simply apologizing very specifically, whatever.)

 

Just adding this comment into the mix; I'm sure you're doing more than just throwing a party when the tantrum stops! LOL ;)

 

Throwing a fit for three hours isn't fun for the child either, so he's not doing it just for fun. If they still have to do whatever was asked of them before the tantrum, then they will eventually (barring some significant special needs) learn that throwing a fit does not equal getting out of something they don't want to do. The point is to not reward the fit in any way - don't get emotional about it (yeah, WAY easier said than done!) and continue on with what they had to do before the fit - just what Simka did.

 

As a former champion fit thrower myself, I can say that having my parents be the immovable wall and time to grow up are all that really helped me. If my parents could stay calm and consistent with me when I just couldn't control myself, it was much more reassuring to me. It also helped teach me the self control that I didn't have then, but do have now. When they got mad at me, it NEVER helped the situation. I was usually too far gone emotionally to have the control to stop then, so the situation would just escalate into an hours-long ordeal for everybody.

 

Now when I'm parenting an out-of-control child, I try to remember my own experiences as a child like that. It is scary to a child to be that out of control, and my job as parent is to first help them regain control, then to help them make amends for what they did while out of control, and finally to return to whatever was interrupted so that the child learns that they will not get their way. All they do is delay doing what they have to do and use up their play time.

 

On another note:

 

When we have situations like that, there is invariably something else going on. The child is usually really tired, hungry, getting sick, or stressed by something else (death of a pet, friend moving away, moving house, etc.). In our house, hunger/low blood sugar is almost always part of the issue, so the very first thing I do is get a glass of milk and very emotionlessly insist that the child drink the milk. (I do this early on, to try to avert the really out-of-control, throwing phase of the fit.) This usually heads off the fit.

 

We also have done a star chart with our fit thrower. He earned a star for every day without a fit. There was no reward other than a star, but it was still a big incentive for him. Things have improved a huge amount for us, and we no longer use it, but it helped a lot while we did.

 

There can also be consequences for throwing fits. If a child uses a lot of my time throwing a fit, then he has to help me make that time back up by helping me with my normal chores - doing laundry, folding clothes, cooking, vacuuming, etc. Yes, this actually takes me a bit longer, but I find it to be an effective natural consequence, and the child learns valuable skills at the same time.

[rootsnwings]

so does that mean that you think the kindest thing you can do for a kid is the least effective not the most?:):001_smile:

 

ummmm... that's sort of confusing :)

 

but... I think kids are smart enough from a VERY early age to learn what is expected of them. HOME training is SO very important. You can't expect kids to go out in the world and behave & be safe if you're not training them to behave and be safe at home. Spanking is NOT the way to get those results from kids. Spanking just teaches kids not to get caught! (ask me how I know! :D) I don't want sneaky toddlers and I certainly don't want sneaky teens!!

 

FWIW, we use time-out consistently until about age 3-5, then we use a points system for positive re-inforcement of good behavior. All I have to do is threaten to take a point and they are usually back on track fairly quickly. Points = tickets for screen-time (tv, psp, ps3, wii, computer time, etc.) and a couple tickets have monetary value (<$5) At the end of the week they draw however many tickets as they have points (max 15) to earn their screen-time for the week & maybe some loot for the weekend! :D We start out with 10pts at the beginning of the week... and then I reward them with a point when I see them doing something good, or if they take on "extra" chores.

 

It works out GREAT for my boys!!! :)

 

HTH!!!

[BlsdMama]

I'm actually a spanker. But not for school.

 

A child should never be spanked if they haven't been taught how to behave.

Frankly, a child shouldn't be PUNISHED if not taught to behave.

 

So, my thoughts are you haven't trained him to your expectations. And, btw, leaving him in a distracted bedroom and walking away and then coming back and having expectations that work will be done when it normally is not is not training. It's akin to telling your dog, "Okay, now I"ll leave you alone with these four shoes. I know you've chewed them in the past. But, today, I'd like you to NOT chew them." Then leaving the room.

 

Then being bewildered at coming back to the room and finding the shoes chewed! And then punishing the dog. :D

 

This is all said very sweetly because I think it's how most folks parent. It's all VERY REACTIVE instead of proactive.

 

The correct "training" way would be to have him do it all the table while you are present or nearby to train him to stay on task and do what needs to be done. To re-direct his attention and let him know when he's getting distracted or just frankly not gettin' 'er done. Because he's probably developed the habit inattention. And to punish a habit that you've not tried to retrain is really probably causing a lot of resentment on both of your behalves.

 

You need a habit of obedience to be laid down and imbedded before turning them loose. Otherwise you have the dog and the shoe situation.

 

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com

[simka2]

Throwing a fit for three hours isn't fun for the child either, so he's not doing it just for fun. If they still have to do whatever was asked of them before the tantrum, then they will eventually (barring some significant special needs) learn that throwing a fit does not equal getting out of something they don't want to do. The point is to not reward the fit in any way - don't get emotional about it (yeah, WAY easier said than done!) and continue on with what they had to do before the fit - just what Simka did.

 

As a former champion fit thrower myself, I can say that having my parents be the immovable wall and time to grow up are all that really helped me. If my parents could stay calm and consistent with me when I just couldn't control myself, it was much more reassuring to me. It also helped teach me the self control that I didn't have then, but do have now.

 

As this was going on I was remembering back to my own childhood fits. It really is miserable, and I did feel so bad for him!

 

When they got mad at me, it NEVER helped the situation. I was usually too far gone emotionally to have the control to stop then, so the situation would just escalate into an hours-long ordeal for everybody.

 

Now when I'm parenting an out-of-control child, I try to remember my own experiences as a child like that. It is scary to a child to be that out of control, and my job as parent is to first help them regain control, then to help them make amends for what they did while out of control, and finally to return to whatever was interrupted so that the child learns that they will not get their way. All they do is delay doing what they have to do and use up their play time.

 

On another note:

 

When we have situations like that, there is invariably something else going on.

 

A huge part of this was starting a school routine again. He is the kid who never wants summer to end :) I get that, but schools got to start sometime!

 

The child is usually really tired, hungry, getting sick, or stressed by something else (death of a pet, friend moving away, moving house, etc.). In our house, hunger/low blood sugar is almost always part of the issue, so the very first thing I do is get a glass of milk and very emotionlessly insist that the child drink the milk. (I do this early on, to try to avert the really out-of-control, throwing phase of the fit.) This usually heads off the fit.

 

We also have done a star chart with our fit thrower. He earned a star for every day without a fit. There was no reward other than a star, but it was still a big incentive for him. Things have improved a huge amount for us, and we no longer use it, but it helped a lot while we did.

 

There can also be consequences for throwing fits. If a child uses a lot of my time throwing a fit, then he has to help me make that time back up by helping me with my normal chores - doing laundry, folding clothes, cooking, vacuuming, etc. Yes, this actually takes me a bit longer, but I find it to be an effective natural consequence, and the child learns valuable skills at the same time.

 

Great ideas here! and thanks!

 

Also, please know I did not spank in anger...and did a pretty good job at keeping my voice calm and steady. I simply knew he wasn't going to be able to stop himself. As I reflected on this though...I realized I wanted to educate myself with some alternatives should any of my kids reach that point again.

[amy g.]

I want to agree that a child that feels good behaves well.

 

My fit thrower has had problems with different foods and had difficulty sleeping well since birth.

 

If we can resolve all of those issues, I expect her behavior to get even better.

[BlsdMama]

`

 

but... I think kids are smart enough from a VERY early age to learn what is expected of them. HOME training is SO very important. You can't expect kids to go out in the world and behave & be safe if you're not training them to behave and be safe at home. Spanking is NOT the way to get those results from kids. Spanking just teaches kids not to get caught!

 

My personal opinion is that the punishment itself isn't that relevant. If it's effective (meaning motivating to the individual) it really wouldn't matter if it was spanking, removing of something, etc. If you aren't training, you're just banging your head against a wall. If you're not willing to ambush and/or follow through, you're banging your head against a wall.

 

Oh, and for folks who think they're "training" and your house is like Boot Camp and you do or you don't spank, if you don't have your kids' hearts, they're going to hit the door the minute they hit 18.

 

Haven't you ever wondered why some people who seem to have no rules have great kids? And other people who DO (gasp) spank seem to have great kids? And then you can have other families that have identical "rules" as the two previous families and yet the results are totally different - and what is the actual difference? It's the relationships between the parents and the kids. I don't think I can emphasize that enough.

 

Because all punishments can only be enforced for so long. You better have their hearts by then. And it's why you shouldn't put much credit in taking advice from people who can still "force" their kids to listen (young kids) or people who have successfully raised one. No offense, but you better be looking at the results before you go listening to the advice. ;)

[simka2]

First off, I appreciate all you had to say :) but...we do a ton of training in our house!!!! Also, I train dogs and horses (not that kids are the same) but I have some idea on the front :)

 

I'm actually a spanker. But not for school.

 

A child should never be spanked if they haven't been taught how to behave.

Frankly, a child shouldn't be PUNISHED if not taught to behave.

 

So, my thoughts are you haven't trained him to your expectations. And, btw, leaving him in a distracted bedroom and walking away and then coming back and having expectations that work will be done when it normally is not is not training. It's akin to telling your dog, "Okay, now I"ll leave you alone with these four shoes. I know you've chewed them in the past. But, today, I'd like you to NOT chew them." Then leaving the room.

 

Then being bewildered at coming back to the room and finding the shoes chewed! And then punishing the dog. :D

 

This is all said very sweetly because I think it's how most folks parent. It's all VERY REACTIVE instead of proactive.

 

The correct "training" way would be to have him do it all the table while you are present or nearby to train him to stay on task and do what needs to be done.

 

This was how we started...he was sent to his room after the fit started. He does struggle with attention, but I see that as a seperate issue, a training issue...and I am very present to help him with that :)

 

To re-direct his attention and let him know when he's getting distracted or just frankly not gettin' 'er done. Because he's probably developed the habit inattention. And to punish a habit that you've not tried to retrain is really probably causing a lot of resentment on both of your behalves.

 

You need a habit of obedience to be laid down and imbedded before turning them loose. Otherwise you have the dog and the shoe situation.

 

www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com

 

Again, I never would have sent him to his room to learn a new or unfamiliar concept. He went to his room for the fit...he did have to stay in his room till the math was done, but he knows he can always come out and calmly ask questions.

 

On the other hand...I have 3 other kids I am homeschooling and who need my attention too.

 

Again thank you!

[Rivka]

When we have situations like that, there is invariably something else going on. The child is usually really tired, hungry, getting sick, or stressed by something else (death of a pet, friend moving away, moving house, etc.). In our house, hunger/low blood sugar is almost always part of the issue, so the very first thing I do is get a glass of milk and very emotionlessly insist that the child drink the milk. (I do this early on, to try to avert the really out-of-control, throwing phase of the fit.) This usually heads off the fit.

 

Really good point.

[amy g.]

I reread your original post and thought of something.

 

Is it possible that you have inadvertently "trained" him to believe that you are not really serious, or that he doesn't really have to obey you UNTIL you spank him?

[Quad Shot Academy]

This was how we started...he was sent to his room after the fit started. He does struggle with attention, but I see that as a seperate issue, a training issue...and I am very present to help him with that

 

In that case I would have given a consequence that accrued every 10 minutes and given him gentle reminders of how many he had accrued: 1 day of playing, 1 day of electronics, or 1 extra chore per 10 minutes of fit throwing. I doubt it would have lasted 3 hours! ;)

:grouphug:

[eclipse]

Since part of it is resistance to starting back with school work, perhaps a more gentle easing back into the routine would be helpful. Also, if these were review problems, perhaps it was actually unnecessary for him to do them (I'm not saying that he gets to make that call, as it doesn't seem like that's how your house operates, but that it's something for you to consider when deciding what work to assign. It can be frustrating to have to re-demonstrate your proficiency at something). Also, since he seems like an easily distracted, wiggly kid - maybe some of the problems could be done orally. Obviously none of that addresses what to do in the middle of a tantrum, but heading it off seems to be the most effective plan.

[simka2]

I reread your original post and thought of something.

 

Is it possible that you have inadvertently "trained" him to believe that you are not really serious, or that he doesn't really have to obey you UNTIL you spank him?

 

I'm sitting here...wanting this to be the case, because in a way that would make it easier to fix :) No, I am very strong, stable, consistent, but gracious and merciful parent. That's not a brag, because it hasn't always been the case.

 

Dh and I have been in ministry for a long time and have gone thru the ultra-hyper-authority type. Were not that way anymore...and I am thankful that we "saw the light" on this early on in our kids lives.

 

Truthfully, we teach parenting classes...most of which would be about stuff many of these wonderful posters have brought up.

 

It was very difficult for me to follow thru on all the progressive consequences that had occured during this episode. After all it started small....and just grew! I did though...he lost his DS, did not get to ride his horse, lost tv privledges, and had to go to bed early. On the other hand we did have some great restoritive time too. We did talk about what happened...how anything he might have gained from the fit did not outweigh what he lost.

[simka2]

Since part of it is resistance to starting back with school work, perhaps a more gentle easing back into the routine would be helpful. Also, if these were review problems, perhaps it was actually unnecessary for him to do them (I'm not saying that he gets to make that call, as it doesn't seem like that's how your house operates, but that it's something for you to consider when deciding what work to assign. It can be frustrating to have to re-demonstrate your proficiency at something). Also, since he seems like an easily distracted, wiggly kid - maybe some of the problems could be done orally. Obviously none of that addresses what to do in the middle of a tantrum, but heading it off seems to be the most effective plan.

 

 

I'm putting some thought into this :) Now, after he did every problem wrong I did have him do a couple orally just to make sure he still got it.

 

Yes it is review for him, but we were about 4 full days back into school, I was on the fence about how reviewy it was, kwim? Plus, his fit was just to scream over and "I DON"T GET IT!!!! I DON"T GET IT!!!!" With an occasional "I DON"T WANT TOO!" thrown in.

 

He did get it though, and today he is back to the happy smiley math whiz!

I'm realizeing the issue wasn't so much about the actual math...it was about school in general. Truth was he was going to fight me on school, and I think we just needed to get thru it. ERRRRGH!

 

Somebody mentioned that maybe I don't follow thru on consequences, and although I don't think it was that...I think he wasn't convinced that school was a "have too!" Hope that made some sense :)

[lisabelle]

When my ds was at the age of having meltdowns, first I would try to get him to talk about what was so upsetting to him. Of course, by that point, it was usually useless. So then I'd ask him if he'd like to sit with me in the rocking chair until he'd calmed down. That usually worked, and then we could talk about what was really bothering him and come in with a solution. But even if some rocking didn't seem to help, I'd tell him his noises were hurting my ears and that I needed for him to go to his room and come out when he felt like he could talk. That usually did the trick pretty quickly. He's always been one to prefer to be in the same room with either me or the dh. I always *hated* sending him to his room--when I was a child my mom didn't give us a time-out...she BANISHED us to this hard wooden bench and it was never for a set amount of time--you never knew if you'd be there for 15 minutes or an hour and a half. But I tell myself it isn't really a time-out; he has complete control over when he leaves his room.

[gingersmom]

In advance, please let this stay a NICE thread!!!! I am not a huge fan of spanking!!! I need to me upfront about that, I don't want to spank them especially now that they are getting older.

 

So, here's what happened yesterday. Ds8, decides to have a total meltdown over math. Now, were just starting back up our school year...and this is review type stuff. He's also my math whiz, so I know this wasn't a "math" issue. I sent him up to his room where he couldn't disturb the rest of the kids...the fit lasted 3 hours!!!! I mean kicking, screaming, crying...it was incredible!!!! At one point he did all the problems...WRONG!!!! After, the 3 hours...missing recess and other school work. I calmly went up to his room and gave him two swift swats on the behind. I reiterated that it "Stops Now!" and that he could ask me any "real" questions, but just saying "I don't know how!" doesn't count.

 

I then left his room. 10 min later, he calmly came downstairs, math completed with NO errors!!!!! Today, he has been great...no tears, fits or anything!!!!

 

I'm sure I have left out many of the "non-spanking" things I tried in the 3 hours tantrum, but I can't think of them all right now.

 

My question is this...what can I do besides spanking when he gets that upset?

 

PS... he is also grounded from his ds and didn't get to ride his horse last night.

 

Nothing. Do absolutely nothing. He is sent to his room and he can stay there till the next morning. Bring him his dinner. Goodnight.

 

You don't want to know my opinion on spanking.

[simka2]

I want to agree that a child that feels good behaves well.

 

My fit thrower has had problems with different foods and had difficulty sleeping well since birth.

 

If we can resolve all of those issues, I expect her behavior to get even better.

 

I agree...and I know that emotionally he didn't feel good about school. He wanted to play!!!!! (and we do a lot of games here, but it can't all be fun)

 

But what do you do when when your in a total battle of the wills over something that is neccesary...and your scared the mailman is going to call cps?

 

I don't like to get drawn into the battles, I would have been happy to let him stay in room until "he" decided he "wanted" to do school. But he wasn't just staying in his room, he was screaming and yelling and kicking.

 

Maybe, I've got some tunnel vision. Maybe, I should have let him win a bit. It hit so fast and was so sudden that I was already behind in a way. It went something like this...

 

"Okay son...it's time for you to get your math out." ds gets math out, and I proceed to show him where were working. Son say's "Idon't get it." "okay, what don't you get?" "I just DON"T GET IT!" "Son, you don't need to raise your voice...lets start at the begining....what is the first problem?" "I DON'T KNOW!!!" "Son, you do know...it's right there" at this point his slid from his chair onto the floor and the tears began. "Okay, go to your room until you can calm down and work with the rest of us" "I DON"T WANT TO!!!!!!!" "NOOOOOOOOO!" I give the look...he stomps and growls to the top of the stairs and starts the "IIIIII DOOOONNN"T WAAAANNNT TOOOOOO!" over and over till it's screaming. I silently walk up the stairs and escort him to room, I tell him that when he calms down I will be up to talk about things, but I also have to work with his brothers and sister. I shut the door....(this is when the door slamming starts combined with the yelling) I again walk in and say..."It stops now, or you will lose you ds for the week...I will be back when it's quiet in here." I leave the fit starts again...I go into room and take away DS which only escalates tantrum. I quietly remind him that if he takes some deep breathes it will help him calm down, and go back to check on the other kids because I can begin to hear them getting restless. Fit continues...I let it go for awhile, get the other kids going on something else...then go back up. "Stop kicking the walls, it not acceptable behavior...if you want to talk that fine, but be respectful." He respondes with "I just can't do it." more cried than yelled. "Son you CAN do it! you are very capable and very smart!!! Right now you don't WANT to do it, but you have to. Go get your math book, get it done, and this will al be over." Fit starts again!!!! I leave quietly, eventually he comes down to get math book, and comes down a short while later with every problem wrong. SO I sit him on the couch and start to go thru them orally with him...he gets them all right. I send him back to his room, because now it's about not trying!

 

Fit starts again...I try removing more privledges, with a lot of similar dialoge as before, staying calm (although I really wanted a Xanax!) Eventually, I can't take it (what he's putting himself thru) anymore. I get the spanker, and go up to his room. " this has gone on long enough...I love you, but I cannot allow you to continue this behavior anymore...you are going to get a spanking." and I give him two quick swats...a couple sniffles later, he's CALM! "please finish your problems and come downstairs, if you have any questions come down and ask me. I LOVE YOU!!!!"

10 min later he comes downstairs (didn't ask any ?'s) and has EVERY single problem right!!!! Since then he's been an angel.

 

That's the long version!!!! Anyway, I don't want to spank...but, I do think some good ideas on how to "SHOCK" or "JAR" them out of an epic tantrum. The kind where they really are no longer in control of themselves, would be very helpful! :)

Edited August 17, 2010 by simka2

[fairfarmhand]

I like the idea of every ten minutes the fit continues, something gets taken away. The key would be that the consequences are spelled out in advance on paper. Then on the way to the bedroom, you can just throw out a quick reminder and hand the child the sheet of paper. "Remember what we've discussed about fits. It is up to you how bad your week ends up." Kiss on the head, close the door and see what happens.

 

Also, I've learned with my fit thrower, to try not to take things away mid-fit. At that point. She. simply. doesn't. care. She may care later, but she doesn't right then. Mid tantrum, all the consequences will do is infuriate her further. So I leave her alone, even if it is for an hour or more. I don't even enter the room till I hear deafening silence for a good long period of time. My popping in and out just reminds her of why she is so angry. Later when we are all sane and rational, then we talk about the consequences.

 

ETA: and my husband told my dd that the next time the door gets slammed he will take it off the hinges for a LONG time. For a 12 yr old girl with 3 younger siblings...that was a major threat. It has been months since she slammed her door.

[simka2]

 

 

 

ETA: and my husband told my dd that the next time the door gets slammed he will take it off the hinges for a LONG time. For a 12 yr old girl with 3 younger siblings...that was a major threat. It has been months since she slammed her door.

 

 

:DI wish that would work on my boys!!!! They would prefer that though!

[Blossom'sGirl]

Sounds a little like my 7yo yesterday. He threw himself for about a half hour. Today went much better. I made sure to praise him extensively when he came quickly and had a good attitude. I sat with him for everything. Most importantly, we have a large jar of peanut butter m&m's that are a reward for finishing work and good attitude. He is a very strong willed little guy and I have found that rewards (or withholding them) work with him much better than punishment.

 

Hope tomorrow is a better day.

[RhondaJK]

My DD9 was doing fine until school was over and she turned on the TV. Dad had reminded her the night before that her room needed to be clean before any TV or computer time after school. Dad asked if her room was clean and major meltdown began. She was sent to her room to calm down and clean it. Stomping and screaming were all ignored by us. She proceeded to cry for at least 30 min before asking to come down to use the BR. I was fixing dinner and Dad was outside doing chores, she offered to help with dinner prep and I reminded her that her room needed to be cleaned, she tried to bargain with me and was reminded that she need to obey Dad. Sent back upstairs in another fit of screaming, stomping and tears. She cried loudly until dinner time, when she was called down to dinner Dad warned her that at the first sign of any fit she would lose her dinner and she would be going straight to bed after dinner. She was able to control herself and get through dinner but, when told to start getting ready for bed began to scream and cry again, at this point she got 2 open handed swats on the butt by dad and sent to bed. The crying stopped and she was able to talk about what had happened when we went up to tuck her in to bed 10 minutes later. Sometimes I think there is a magic button, I wish I knew of something besides spanking that would work to reset it.:glare:

[Lolosoli]

I LOVE Barbara Coloroso's book Kid's Are Worth It: Giving a Child the Gift of Inner Dicipline.

 

I have a 14 year old, 8 year and a 5 year....none of them have ever been hit, tapped, smacked or even punished. They are amazing kids!

 

Natural and Logical Consequences and teaching conflict resolution skills are what I use and when they are young...under the age of 8....I use Time Ins.

 

A Time In is where I take the child out and away from the problem/issue/conflict and we work on how to solve the problem in a respectful, kind and mature way. We become a team that works towards learning skills so they don't need to come to me (time in) because they've learned the skills. Time ins are not punishing, or stressful or sad or upsetting. I am the safe place. The skills we learn when they are young are carried with them throughout life. By the time my kids are around 8ish they really don't require a lot of external parenting anymore.

 

~Charlene~

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, my *first* thought is that it sounds like he may need some sensory input when things get crazy like that. LOTS of people (myself included) do. A lot of parents take it as "begging for a spanking" or whatever. What it really is that they are all out of whack and being hit has enough sensory input to fix it. Of course, who is going to hit them when they are 24? And how will he learn to self-regulate if you hit him to do it? So if you can give him sensory type things to try when things get like that, you'll help him find what he needs to reset his senses.

 

Second thought...A LOT of parents (like most?) teach their kids not to listen until they hit them, yell at them, count to a certain number, say something X times, etc. This is a easy thing to do. First off, we don't WANT to yell at or hit our kids. Second, we want to cut them a break sometimes. Third, sometimes we just don't know WHAT to do. And occasionally, we even think the behavior is kinda funny or at least not irritating the first few times. So we actually ENCOURAGE our kids to push it. Could this be the case with your ds?

 

Oh, one more thing we parents do? We save our kids from the REAL consequences. Could it be that you actually fed the fit by "encouraging" and "helping" and "easing" and "aiding" and "threatening" and "not spanking" and "talking" and "cajoling" and "telling him to stop" and and and and? He got a whole bunch of attention but he never had to deal with just not doing the work. We moms just think we can talk them into getting it with "honey, if you would just quit being silly, you could get your work done so you can go play outside" and "Johnny, if you don't do it in 5 minutes, I'm going to take away X." Really, kids are pretty smart. They really don't need us nagging, whining, threatening, punishing, bribing, rewarding, cheerleading, etc all the time.

 

Just a few thoughts. Take or leave whatever you can use :)

 

ETA: I read a couple of responses and your long version. Honestly, I think you're just too punitive in your thinking. You tried to control him by adding more punishments and it didn't work. How about "please leave this room and go sit somewhere until you're ready to do your work." Then he can go sit on the back step for 3 minutes, get a hold of himself and get back to work. Or he might fall asleep on the couch. Or whatever. But HE is in control. And isn't that the goal in the end? At 8, it'd be okay if you controlled everything, but it really makes more sense that 3-8yr olds learn some life skills (like "take a moment") so that they have that skill forever.

 

Of course, there are other choices. Showering, pulling weeds, bouncing a ball, whatever would be other options. And I'm sure you can think of a thousand more. But the idea is that you can teach him life skills so he learns to control himself rather than controlling him with punishments. He can do something else (often think, work, move, etc) until he's ready to handle what he needs to.

 

Really, I believe the new punishment every few minutes is a REALLY bad idea on about every front. The only thing it REALLY does is to make mom feel like "at least I'm doing SOMETHING" even if it doesn't work. And maybe sometimes we are a bit angry so like giving a little retribution also. It's really good about getting the kid even more mad or upset or feeling out of control. And if it "works" then it gets them to stop for the wrong reason and often in a way that isn't so healthy.

 

PLEASE consider going the other way :)

Edited August 18, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Daisy]

I always love when parenting advice consists of, "Well, I just don't tolerate that behavior." LOL. Helpful. Not. What do you do, physically fight your child until they comply? I think some folks just don't get the whole "strong-willed" child thing.

 

Spanking has NEVER worked in my house. As a matter of fact, it serves only to escalate a fit.

 

Best thing for us is the following.

 

1. I MUST remain calm. If I get upset and let them push my buttons it is all over with.

 

2. Separation. The child needs to be separated from the rest of the family. Sent to their room. Time out. Whatever. For as long as it takes for them to recognize their own responsibility in the situation.

 

3. Once they are calm, I expect them to recognize and admit their poor behavior. I expect them to ask forgiveness from every family member that was wronged. If they are not ready to do this, they remain in their room or on time-out.

 

4. We discuss an appropriate consequence. We try to keep it a natural consequence. You pitched a fit about cleaning your room, so now you are cleaning your room and the garage. You pitched a fit about math, you are now doing the entire lesson instead of half problems and you are doing it now while everyone else watches a movie.

 

Steps 3 and 4 cannot be done at all until the child is calmed down. At least not in my house.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think some folks just don't get the whole "strong-willed" child thing.

 

Spanking has NEVER worked in my house. As a matter of fact, it serves only to escalate a fit.

 

Those few sentences should always go together. Spanking rarely works for a TRULY challenging child. These kids simply need better discipline, not more punishment.

[Penelope]

I agree with Pamela and Daisy.

 

You got into a power struggle even if you did remain calm. The threats of taking things and upping the ante during the fits don't work and make things worse. BTDT. :D Not like I have it all figured out yet.

 

But then here is where I really part ways:

 

I leave quietly, eventually he comes down to get math book, and comes down a short while later with every problem wrong. SO I sit him on the couch and start to go thru them orally with him...he gets them all right. I send him back to his room, because now it's about not trying!

To me, it sounds like he was trying. I would give him the benefit of the doubt here and say that he was still not in a great state of mind after a fit and maybe didn't remember the math after the summer break. I would have him write in the correct answers after going through them orally, or make sure I give him another set of similar problems the next day to go over it again. But not send him back to his room as punishment. That is assuming he was ready to apologize to me for screaming at me and talk about his behavior.

[Nature]

I don’t believe in spanking. Logical and natural consequences (which could be withholding privileges), positive discipline and time-outs are what I have used. Two great books are: Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen and The Explosive Child by Ross Greene.

[Laura Corin]

I try to follow the ideas in Hold On To Your Kids: putting the relationship first and gathering your children to you, rather than pushing them away. I'm strict and the the children get great reports on behaviour and politeness, but I discipline by hugs, more hugs, more hugs and talking them back into the family. If you want more details, I'm happy to supply.

 

Laura

[Peela]

I wanted to add, that with my kids, I would not ground for the misbehavior. I make the punishment short term, like staying in his room until he was ready to do his work, but When it is over, it's over. Once he is obeying, I would want to focus on how happy you are with the great day you are having today.

 

Thats my approach too.

I have spanked with similar results...sometimes it just works to get them to snap out of it. But I also havent liked doing it and usually do it when *I* am at my wits end and cant think of another solution. And I havent done it for ages.

 

I too do not like long term of grounding type solutions. I like immediate ones, so that when they do pull out of their emotional state we can start fresh.

 

As much as it is tempting to think that a child chooses to go into those nose dive emotional states....I think there is a problem with seeing it like that, because I dont think *anyone* consciously chooses to be that unhappy. It is something we kind of fall into because of a pattern and perhaps a misunderstanding of what it will get us...what the pay off is, but I think it happens unconsciously, so it is not quite right to say they are "choosing" to do it. They are no more choosing that we choose to wake up in a bad mood or depressed. Its life and moods happen and sometimes its hard. My son has had math meltdowns lately too.

So...for us, making sure we are being reasonable, and then not backing down...and letting them scream it out in the bedroom...is what we have done. My son has had that tendency to let loose and scream and sometimes kick doors etc. We have learned to just be firm, to give fines, and to wait for the storm to pass...and then make sure he finishes his work or whatever the issues was. But onces the storm has passed he is usually soft and teachable and we dont punish..we enjoy the sunshine!

[keptwoman]

I had a similar issue with my 10yo. Except that it was regular, daily tantrums that dissolved into destructive tantrums, throwing, hitting etc, often over very minor stuff. We spent many months trying to deal with it, coping through the tantrums and feeling sorry for him at the end when he was emotionally spent and with things to clean up. We dealt with behaviour leading up to it, coped during, and empathised and loved after. I bought books on dealing with anger and worked through them with him, we talked about the lead up and ways to deal with them. And yet it got worse and worse and worse, until I called a mental health line in desperation one night during a violent tantrum and after lots of very negative (almost suicidal) self talk by DS we ended up at the doctor and psychologist. I thought we had major issues.

We had 4 sessions with the psychologist and I'm not going to bore you with the details. But basically he asked us to punish the tantrums, to have really strong concrete boundaries and if it led to a tantrum, deal with it through it and then punish after. Admittedly we had been a bit flimsy with boundaries, trying to avoid melt downs but it had never occured to me to punish a child who seemed out of control.

 

Well we did what he asked us to do, the tantrums intensified for a few days, we coped and talked and loved through and when calmness had returned we punished with mega time out (to fit the severity of the tantrum). After about 3 days of really pushing, the tantrums got shorter and less serious and he pulled out of them quicker, he started to control himself better. In the end it wasn't lack of ability to control himself, but lack of desire to control himself. Within 4 weeks the tantrums had stopped, as had the negative self talk and we had a completely different child, he is far happier. Now and then he pushes the boundaries again to check they are concrete and finds they are.

 

I'm not sure I'd feel the need to punish an occasional long tantrum, but if they are getting more frequent, then it's worth considering. I don't think spanking is necessary, although we were taught a restraining method as DS was very violent, but a consequence may help. I realise this is contrary to what many people are saying here, but it worked for our family.

Edited August 18, 2010 by keptwoman