WWYD? Dog nipped at Baby

[teamturner]

I think for my dog, it would be cruel to lock her up when the baby is free.

 

But you're considering giving the dog away to what is likely to be a situation far less appealing to him that being with you. What's more cruel in the dog's eyes? Being separated from you during the baby's floor time or being separated from you forever? Doesn't the baby take 2 naps a day and go to bed early? There's plenty of time for the dog to be with you during those times.

 

I had two older dogs and one younger big dog when my twins were crawling age and we put a gate up in the opening to the family room. When they got a little older I think we put the small yappy dog in our bedroom since we didn't trust her with the babies when they were crawling all around the house. The other thing we did is if any of our dogs every growled at our young ones we reprimanded the dog immediately and we told our child to appologize to the dog for whatever they did that upset the dog. We made it very clear to our dog/s that they were not to hurt the children. Our current dog has growled and nipped at the air but it was always a warning because the child was hurting it. My youngest is 4 and capable of being kind to the dog, who is very old, blind, and can barely walk.

[jujsky]

I have found that dogs are VERY possessive of bones and treats.....even more so than their regular food. I make sure that whenever I give our dogs a bone or treat, they are away from the kids and the other dog.

 

My sister has a great dog too.....but that dog will even show her teeth at my sister when it comes to a bone.

 

My dog has bitten the air before at my children. Not bit them, just nipped the air as a warning. Did the dog actually nip the child? Or the air? I feel that growling (to a certain degree) is okay. They are warning the child that they do not want to be bothered then. I tell my kids that if the dog ever growls (which, honestly, has only been like twice when my kids were "in their space") then they need to take that as a warning and leave him alone for the time being.

 

I am VERY cautious with dogs and children though. If I EVER felt, for the slightest second, that my dog has become aggressive with the children (as opposed to the children invading his space and him feeling like he needs to give a warning), then the dog would be gone in a heartbeat.

 

And as far as watching every second......I'm sorry, but that's what I do with young children and dogs until I know that the child is old enough to respect the dogs space. Even if I have to seperate with a baby gate when I can't be watching, that's what I do. That being said, our dog does tend to stay to himself and find his own place to be, usually away from the kids.

 

:iagree: EVERYTHING she said!

[SonshineLearner]

Being a dog lover and a child lover, too... I think you should put the dog down, if you choose to get rid of it. Think of it, poor dog knows that you don't love it. You don't want to take the time to train it. You don't seem like you need a dog. Perhaps this can be something that you don't succumb to again, as in... when you see another dog or puppy... that looks cute... "Just say no". Dogs are tons of work! They are just like little kids that never grow up! Not everyone should have one. This isn't to say that I don't think that dogs should ever be rehomed... I mean... horses are great, too! No one dislikes someone selling their horse to another who can just love it up..... I guess I just think about my own pup who is about 6. I can't imagine putting him in a shelter... no one would feed him the way I do... someone else might freak him out... when he counter surfs! :) He just would be so... lost!!

Just my thoughts.... If you do rehome him... it almost needs to be..... a friend or something :)

 

:)

[FO4UR]

I would put the dog down.

 

Perhaps my pov is skewed by seeing a dear friends baby girl mawled by a family dog, while she was under "careful surpervision"...her face was literally bitten off and sewn back on. It was a miracle she's alive and didn't have major nerve damage. As it is, she will likely always have to deal with explaining to people why she has scars on her face.

 

I have zero tolerance on this issue. Baby comes first!!!

[AHASRADA]

There was a local story in my area of a young mother who stepped outside for a brief moment (I don't recall the details, perhaps she was answering the door, getting the mail, etc.) and left her baby, very briefly, alone with the family dog. Sadly, the baby was mauled by the dog and died.

 

As if this was not tragedy enough, the mother was charged with murder (I don't recall which degree, but much tougher than I would have expected, such as wreckless endangerment resulting in homicide or some such).

 

Dogs, no matter how domesticated, are still animals. No matter what your feelings about the dog before this incident, I would take this as a warning sign. You do not want to play with your baby's life, nor that of the rest of your family should any charges be filed if an attack did occur.

 

IMO, it is easier to work on helping your dc11 to understand the reason the dog has to go, that it's not his fault, it is in fact the fault of the people who gave you the dog without full disclosure, etc., than to attempt to protect your baby from an animal in the home.

[CalicoKat]

one of my kids got bit by my mom's dog. I saw it happen.

 

Dog was sleeping on the floor.

 

Baby stuck finger in the circle under the dog's tail. :001_huh:

 

Dog jumped awake and snapped at the baby.

 

Baby cried.

 

It's happened so fast I couldn't prevent it. My mom was horrified.

 

Usually the rule here is if a dog bites they're gone. However in this case we realized it was an accident and truly it's never happened again.

[BlsdMama]

Frankly, our dog is amazing with kids and he isn't allowed near the baby. The baby is MINE, just as it would be in a pack of dogs. No dogs other than the alphas would be allowed near the baby at first. And even then, it would be obvious who was more important - the baby. The dog should eat AFTER the baby. The dog should lay on the floor, while the baby is above. The dog should be "bit" for sniffing the baby. The dog should, in every instance, think it is inferior to the baby.

 

http://leerburg.com/kidbites.htm

[Jean in Newcastle]

Surely people know that animals can hurt you if not handled properly? A horse can do serious damage but people learn how to handle the horse. I've never heard of horses being casually rehomed or taken to a shelter if they nipped or shied or stepped on someone's foot. . . Dogs and cats are animals. They do need to be trained and handled properly. If someone does not know how to be around the animal safely then they should not be allowed near the animal. This includes children and babies.

[weaver_67579]

um...I hate to say this, but NO dog should be left unattended with a 9 month old. If you aren't watching and closely supervising then they are separate. Perod. And I'd say that if your dog was Lassie and Rin Tin Tin all rolled in one. Also, no rawhides when not supervised.

 

I have 3 kids and until Christmas I had 4 dogs-I lost 3 since then due to health problems (still crying...). Never before the age of 6 or so in oldest dd were any kids left alone with a dog and then only for a minute to go on the porch.... DS is nearly 5 and he will likley be older than oldest dd since he doesn't have as good impulse control. All of the dogs were obedience trained (I was an instructor) and all were therapy dogs. You never know-and even a baby can fall on a dog and hurt it-causing a reaction.

 

I do not believe that there is no way to keep them separated. If it is important to you-you will do it. I know a lot of people that have/do. We have a 1 year old baby and a 12 year old dog. There are baby gates everywhere-and have been since oldest dd was born 12 years ago. Our last house was a small ranch house-we did it with 3 German Shorthaired Pointers and a Dalmatian to keep DS separated when not supervised. All of the dogs are/were crate trained. I have a fenced yard and all the babies were trained to hang in a playpen now and again-handy for doing school too. All kids also have been trained to stay away from the dog crates. Those are the one place in the house kiddos are not allowed-always a safe zone for the dogs-in fact kids can expect a spanking for getting in one.

 

I agree with the other doggie folks here. Train the dog, give the dog some activity and attention to fight off boredom. Keep them separated when not directly supervised. ONly give high value treats/toys/food when dog is in the crate. Who knows-you may like the dog more if you put some more into the relationship. I would recommend using food motivated training-since beagles can be a bit stubborn to train (you don't see too many Obedience trial Champion beagles...). Beagles are fun family dogs though-I recommend the breed a lot-from a reputable breeder or rescue group.

[AlaskaGrownFamily]

So sorry, OP.

 

Honestly, I KNOW I/we don't have the energy to devote to proper dog training and behavior modification in conjunction with raising children. I have a very low tolerance for dogs biting, no matter the circumstances. I'd try to rehome the dog in a child-free or older-kids-only home, with full disclosure of the issues and challenges you've had.

[StephanieZ]

And that is exactly why there are so many dogs in shelters or rescues, because instead of addressing behavior issues with the dog OR the people (and frankly, this sounds like a people behavior issue, not a dog issue) the people ditch the dog.

 

:iagree:

 

Ditching a dog b/c he growls or nips is like ditching a person b/c he scowls or speaks harshly. These are very minor warning signs that can be dealth with effectively and easily now. They should not be ignored, but they are not YET serious problems. If OP ignores them or responds inappropriately, the problems could obviously escalate, which would be sad on many levels.

 

Dogs communicate, and they are complex beings. I don't suggest keeping a dog that poses a known danger. BITING is different from NIPPING.

 

There are effective ways to teach a dog to behave the way you want him to. Personally, I would have no problem knowing how to teach the dog not to do what he is doing (growling, nipping, being food possessive) and have dealt with similar behaviors in virtually every pet I've lived with. . . Because nearly all dogs will try out these kinds of behaviors at some point in life. . .when they face a toddler intruding on their turf, or when they hit a certain age, or when a new pet enters the home, or whatever. If you respond correctly, the experiment will be short lived and peace will reign.

 

It's like being surprised or outraged when a toddler has a tantrum or a young child lies. . . These are problem behaviors but are NORMAL behaviors. You deal. You teach. They learn. No harm is done.

 

Since the OP is obviously unaware of effective ways to teach the dog not to do what he is doing, and/or uncomfortable with doing so on her own, I suggest getting a behaviorist's help. It will be quick, easy, and the OP will not only learn how to solve this behavior issue but will also likely learn skills to solve any future problems with this dog or the next dog.

[mo2]

Oh gad, to write so succinctly!

 

Bravo. ITA.

 

 

Maybe so, but your stories add such a personal touch, they are much more persuasive and endearing.

[KellyGirl]

I'm still reading and weighing, and wanted to do some more clarifying.

 

Hornblower asked about how rich the dog's life is -

 

• She is walked on a leash at least once, sometimes twice
  
• She isn't involved in tracking but in the nice weather she makes frequent trips to camp with us where she has the run of a hundred acres of woods and she is one happy dog there!
  
• She doesn't spend a lot of time with other dogs b/c for the first two years I wasn't sure I trusted her - didn't know how she would act. And on the occasions when she did meet another dog, it didn't go well. However, she has recently proved herself to be quite polite and social, so that may change.
  
• I know there was more on the list that we don't do, but can't remember it all now.
  

 

 

I am NOT unwilling to train the dog. I have worked hard to get her truly housebroken, sitting, staying, and coming to the point that she will come back to me when she is running free outside. At this point, I'm not sure what to do or if it's doable - that is why I asked here. And now I am seriously considering how to make it work for us.

 

Do I like the dog? Not particularly. But some days I don't like my husband either. Doesn't mean I would have him put down. If I were to get rid of the dog I would work hard to get her in an older kids home (and fully disclose the issues we've had) where I know she could transition and be happy.

 

As to why separating dog and baby is tough - the baby is asleep or contained when I am awake for maybe 4 hours total during the day. Beagles are VERY social, mine in particular is pretty sure that she is an overgrown lap dog. They are not good dogs for people who work all day b/c they go crazy being locked up all day. So being home with us and being locked up a lot would probably cause more bad behavior. At least, that is what I think knowing my dog as I do.

[Old Dominion Heather]

But there was a time when people accepted that dogs sometimes bit, and certainly might growl or air snap & if the reason was pretty clear, it was not a big deal. Out of the blue, psychotic fits are a problem, but a dog who bit me while I was in its yard? Well, what the heck was I expecting - would be the comment from both my parents & the dog owner. Yes, I was not only bit by my own dog but by someone else's dog too.... :) that one was a serial biter too & nailed me in the back of the calf. I was about 6?

 

 

It does make a difference too what size the dog is. It is not fair but I have much lower tolerances for posturing in large dogs than small dogs because obviously even a small snap can do more damage.

 

Yes. I grew up around dogs and was bitten more times than I can remember and each time, my parents asked me what I did to provoke the dog. Dogs are dogs. Any dog will bite when threatened or hurt, even the most docile, but a warning nip is NOT the same thing as an animal attack.

 

We have reached an age when any risk of injury is unacceptable and I worry about how this perception of risk is going to affect those who have never taken any.

 

My parents did get rid of our poodle when I was about five because despite repeated attempts to get the dog to stop being so aggressive with me, it finally bit me in the face and drew blood and gave me a black eye. Even then though, we just passed him to my uncle's family who had all older girls. He lived several more years happily with them.

 

This seems like it has such an easy solution. Buy a baby gate and don't let the baby around the dog until the baby can understand that how to deal with the dog. Don't feed the dog anything outside of its crate.

[coffeegal]

My suggestions are:

 

First - take your dog to the vet. If it's a physical problem that's treatable or not, you'll know and can make a decision from there. Otherwise the vet may be able to recommend specific books or treatments to help, or know of people locally who would be willing to help with your situation.

 

Secondly - let the baby feed the dog treats (under your supervision of course), or drop yummies to the floor for the dog. It's amazing how loyal and patient my dog becomes with the babies once they start giving her treats. :lol:

 

Third - if it continues to be a problem, baby stays - dog goes.

[sparrow]

I haven't had a chance to read the responses, but given our own experience, the dog would need to go.

 

We got a beautiful American Eskimo dog as an older puppy from our animal shelter before we had kids. We took her to obedience classes, we read 'Leader of the Pack', and practiced what we read. Yet still, we had a dog that challenged pack position constantly. It was clear she accepted me as the alpha, but constantly tried to challenge everyone else. She urinated on dh's chair and his side of the bed. She nipped if we tried to take something from her. In any event, this was still happening after clicker training and us having a bit of clue as to what we were doing.

 

Fast forward 3 years and we have a son. She tolerates ds, but watches him warily. We never leave them unsupervised. The dog typically avoids him, but is also very protective of him....to the point of growling at grandparents that pick him up. This goes on for 2 years. I am constantly on guard. Ultimately, it happened very quickly. I stood up to walk out of the kitchen and in the 2 seconds that I did that, she bit my 2 year old ds in the face, missing his eye by mere centimeters. She had punctured a part of his ear and the upper part of his eyelid. These were small punctures that didn't even leave scars but I would NEVER have forgiven myself if he had lost an eye. I don't forgive myself for ignoring warning signs for years.

 

I am a diligent pet owner. I don't give up on my pets, but I will NEVER have another dog that shows tendencies like you're describing. Our current dog is now 8. We also adopted her as an older puppy. She doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body. No amount of training seemed to be able help our old dog, yet minimal training has made our current dog a perfect member of our family. There are plenty of dogs languishing in shelters with the same sort of personality.

[Hockey Mom]

Secondly - let the baby feed the dog treats (under your supervision of course), or drop yummies to the floor for the dog. It's amazing how loyal and patient my dog becomes with the babies once they start giving her treats. :lol:

 

 

 

LOL

 

When DS7 was a baby, he had GERD really, really bad. My labrador thought he was a milkshake machine. Even now, she will follow DS7 anywhere because he's constantly slipping her treats. It's a true "made for Disney" relationship the two of them have. She's 11 years old, and can't move very fast these days, but as soon as she hears him call her, she goes running. :)

 

OP, I can tell in your last post that you are more willing to give this pup a chance than you are to ship him off to his fourth home (or have him put down). I think that's a good decision. :)

 

WRT to crating him, I think people tend to look at a crate and think it's cruel to have a dog in them. But I know for MY dogs, it's their 'safe place'. They go there whenever they're tired, whenever they need some peace and quiet, or when they're not feeling well. I am to the point now where I just leave their door open all day so they can come and go as they please. If this is something you're interested in with your dog, you can start getting him used to the crate by putting small treats in the crate. When he goes in, you shut the door for a few minutes, and give him another treat. You want him to associate the crate with good things.

 

I'm the one who has the English mastiff drop to his belly when he gets over-excited. Once you teach the "down" command, use small treats and gentle guidance to get him to roll over onto his back. When he's on his back, praise, praise, praise! I can also get my dog on his belly by making a gun out my fingers and saying "bang". He will play dead for me. It's hysterical to see this dog playing dead. I keep leftover bacon bits in a baggie to use as treats (they're super tiny), and I even take them with me if I take the dogs anywhere. But use whatever snack your dog likes the best.

 

I think with a little more consistency, you could have a really great dog. :)

[Harry Nelson in Charlotte]

If we had a dog that was the least bit aggressive with a child, he would be gone .

 

There is no fair play here. A 2 yo may want to hit the dog. He/she is not smart enough to respond to the dog's "warnings." So a child hitting a dog is wrong, but you need to be able to correct with discipline, not put the child at peril. He/she can learn respect for animals when they have some judgment.

 

A dog has the potential to do SERIOUS damage to the child. Get rid of the dog now.

[Impish]

I'm still reading and weighing, and wanted to do some more clarifying.

 

Hornblower asked about how rich the dog's life is -

 

• She is walked on a leash at least once, sometimes twice

• She isn't involved in tracking but in the nice weather she makes frequent trips to camp with us where she has the run of a hundred acres of woods and she is one happy dog there!

• She doesn't spend a lot of time with other dogs b/c for the first two years I wasn't sure I trusted her - didn't know how she would act. And on the occasions when she did meet another dog, it didn't go well. However, she has recently proved herself to be quite polite and social, so that may change.

• I know there was more on the list that we don't do, but can't remember it all now.

 

 

 

The dog SOMETIMES gets walked twice a day?

 

Rehome her. She deserves better.

 

I've never known a dog that didn't at LEAST get 3 walks a day, as a minimum standard. First thing in the am, as soon as folks get home from work, again before bed.

 

We had a Pug that was walked 4-5x a day.

 

I can't imagine a beagle being cooped up in the house, all that high energy, and *might* get 2 walks a day.

[mo2]

He/she is not smart enough to respond to the dog's "warnings."

 

 

This is why people are advocating the use of a crate and/or baby gates to keep them separated.

[KellyGirl]

The dog SOMETIMES gets walked twice a day?

 

Rehome her. She deserves better.

 

I've never known a dog that didn't at LEAST get 3 walks a day, as a minimum standard. First thing in the am, as soon as folks get home from work, again before bed.

 

We had a Pug that was walked 4-5x a day.

 

I can't imagine a beagle being cooped up in the house, all that high energy, and *might* get 2 walks a day.

I'm sure she would enjoy more frequent walks, and I'm not saying it's right...but there are easily 10 dogs on our block and ours is the only one that even gets walked regularly. She does go out back to go potty and sometimes hangs out, but she usually chooses to come right back in.

[Jan in SC]

The dog SOMETIMES gets walked twice a day?

 

Rehome her. She deserves better.

 

I've never known a dog that didn't at LEAST get 3 walks a day, as a minimum standard. First thing in the am, as soon as folks get home from work, again before bed.

 

We had a Pug that was walked 4-5x a day.

 

I can't imagine a beagle being cooped up in the house, all that high energy, and *might* get 2 walks a day.

 

Do you walk your dog that often even if you have a large fenced yard?

[vettechmomof2]

Do you walk your dog that often even if you have a large fenced yard?

 

Yes, I do and I recommend it. Dogs need change of scenery too. It also works great for reminders of training because you never know what you might meet up with while on a leashed walk and it is good to work on training frequently in different situations.

 

Personally I would recommend finding a new home for the dog but mainly because this dog will take work even if he didn't snap and I think it (my own opinion here) is not the right time in your life for a pet like a dog.

If you are really interested in training him then a course with a good trainer OR behaviorist to teach YOU how to communicate with the dog wouls be money well spent.

You could try getting your son into 4-H(very low cost) and have him as well as the rest of the family do dog 4-H projects with him.

BUT I would still recommend a vet visit first to rule out health issues!

[BlsdMama]

\

I am NOT unwilling to train the dog. I have worked hard to get her truly housebroken, sitting, staying, and coming to the point that she will come back to me when she is running free outside.

 

Frankly, having had some small experience with a beagle, I can honestly say if you've trained your beagle to recall then I can vouch that you've worked on training. :D

 

I think you could safely keep this dog. But you'd have to know more about dogs and kids. And no, the baby, no matter how well behaved the dog, can't be around the dog unsupervised. The dog needs a crate. The dog doesn't hate the crate, it isn't punishment, it's her den. It's her haven. There's nothing wrong with a crate trained dog. Or a dog trained to stay away from the baby and all of the baby things. But, it would have to be trained to do so.

[Impish]

Our pug passed away, and we now have a Pyr x Akbash. She's walked *counting* 4-5x a day, and we've always had a fenced back yard. There's a difference btwn hanging out in the yard and going for a walk, including a lap (or 3) around the track.

 

Beagles are a high energy dog. They need the exercise, and one walk a day won't do it. We looked into beagles, and decided against them since we have rabbits that go running through our neighbourhood...a beagle would climb the fence to get out and run after them! :lol:

[hornblower]

Do you walk your dog that often even if you have a large fenced yard?

 

absolutely. Most yards are just large toilets for a dog.

 

Dogs need to walk, to explore, to sniff new smells, to stretch their legs.

My guys do sometimes get zoomy & actually PLAY and chase each other but they're still walked, walked, walked. I do think that walking on leash together is a critical part of forming a strong bond with a dog. (human + dog & also dog + dog)

 

I do use the yard for training so I'm glad to have it. I want some agility equipment for it next. My setter uses it for digging & for chasing birds. My mal X suntans in it.

 

They get walked morning & night, 30 min each time. Midday it's either a walk in our neighbourhood + training session + play & be goofy session, OR an outing to a park or a beach etc.

 

My guys are tired dogs because tired dogs = good dogs. :D

[Remudamom]

I've got to stick my nose in. One of our border collies has bitten three of us, including me, and pretty durn good bites they were too. Why? Because Hank can not be sane when he hears us start up a four wheeler. He completely loses his mind, starts snapping and biting the tires and anything else that gets in the way, (like our legs) and doesn't come to until he's satisfied himself that he's attacked it enough. Takes about five minutes.

 

What do we do about Hank? Put him up when we have to go somewhere on the wheeler. Or else put our legs waaay up on the front until he can calm down and run with us.

[zaichiki]

We LOVE dogs. Currently have a recue from Puerto Rico. BUT any doggy growls at my kids and it is gone! Nips/bites and I'd NEVER think twice. I'd stop WHATEVER I was doing and drive it to the shelter that moment.

 

ETA We've never had an issue with this and we've had a dog through 3 babies/toddlers. If for some reason there was suddenly an issue, the dog we love goes. I cannot have a dangerous animal around my kids.

Edited August 11, 2010 by zaichiki

[akellow]

Our five year old was bitten about two months ago by our dog. It was accidental, but she still had to have five stitches and now has to have a lasar treatment to fix the scar. He could have bitten her whole cheek off, but he only nipped her. Since it was our dog, we had to quarantine him for ten days to ensure he didn't have rabies. I think it is better to get rid of the dog for the safety of the child. You cannot fix it once it has become a nightmare. We got rid of our dog, even though it was heart wrenching for the rest of the family. I know this decision stinks because I still miss our dog.

[Cheryl in NM]

I've got to stick my nose in. One of our border collies has bitten three of us, including me, and pretty durn good bites they were too. Why? Because Hank can not be sane when he hears us start up a four wheeler. He completely loses his mind, starts snapping and biting the tires and anything else that gets in the way, (like our legs) and doesn't come to until he's satisfied himself that he's attacked it enough. Takes about five minutes.

 

What do we do about Hank? Put him up when we have to go somewhere on the wheeler. Or else put our legs waaay up on the front until he can calm down and run with us.

 

OMG! Would that be Hank the Cowdog?:lol:

[RoughCollie]

DH and I think that if our baby got nipped by our dog, the dog would go immediately.

[zaichiki]

Got to disagree here. A dog who thinks it is okay, and multiple bites indicates this, to bite humans should be put down. Just because your family found this to be an acceptable behavior does NOT make it so. A dog that you have to constantly be on guard with your behavior is not a dog that should be in a human family situation. While I love dogs, I would never endanger a human in favor of a dog.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[CalicoKat]

Surely people know that animals can hurt you if not handled properly? A horse can do serious damage but people learn how to handle the horse. I've never heard of horses being casually rehomed or taken to a shelter if they nipped or shied or stepped on someone's foot. . . Dogs and cats are animals. They do need to be trained and handled properly. If someone does not know how to be around the animal safely then they should not be allowed near the animal. This includes children and babies.

 

Of course! And babies only roll off beds because folks just don't realize they're rolling over already.

[hornblower]

DH and I think that if our baby got nipped by our dog, the dog would go immediately.

 

What about air snapped? The dog never made contact according to the OP. & would you really put a dog with a high value item right beside a crawling baby?

[vettechmomof2]

OMG! Would that be Hank the Cowdog?:lol:

 

Hehehe!:lol:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Reading with interest, as we have an older rescue dog, and a baby about to start crawling. This is the first baby in the house since we got the dog 2.5 yrs ago. Our dog is completely non-aggressive (that was why we chose her--the rescue we got her from felt she was "bomb-proof" with kids, and we had a toddler at the time), but she is pretty neurotic and causes us a good deal of grief with her issues. What I'm curious about is the repeated statements on using the crate, because we would *love* for our dog to use her crate, and that would solve several of our problems with her, if she could just be crated at night and when we leave, but it seems to be too late for her (she was probably 7 when we got her, maybe 9-10yrs now). I read all up on crate training, and went through the process gradually with her, but the first time I actually left the house with her in the crate for an hour, we came home to bloody carpet, a torn up crate, and a broken tooth requiring surgical extraction.

 

Does anyone have suggestions on keeping dog and crawling baby apart when a crate won't work (or suggestions on how to make it work--even better!), and when baby gates would be very difficult to configure (they would need to span multiple very wide spaces).

 

I should probably start my own post, and maybe some of you dog folks would have suggestions for our other dog issues. Right now my dh is at the end of his rope with this dog. It's been like this for the whole 2.5+ years we've had her.

 

To OP: I feel for you. I have 4 kids of similar ages, and while I had time for training before we had another baby, with a new baby in the house, it's just really hard to handle dog issues at the same time. I mean, after caring for the kids and baby, I'm still having a hard time just keeping up with the basics around the house, so having a problem with a dog requiring a bunch of extra attention is a real burden. I feel badly that it is, and I know a dog deserves better, but it is what it is, and I feel like many replies haven't cut you any slack for your current life situation. I certainly am not able to walk our dog 4-5 times a day right now. I just can't. I wish I could, and I know it would be great for her, but like I said, I'm still getting a handle on life with 4 kids, one of whom is a very needy baby, and I can't even fathom how I would do that. If I'd known 3 years ago what I know now, we wouldn't have gotten a dog--I spent 6 months very carefully looking for a rescue dog and preparing, but it just didn't turn out at all the way it was with the dog we rescued when I was a teen, and we found out too late that we weren't cut out for a "problem" dog (well, actually, I spent that long looking because I knew that we couldn't deal with any big problems right now, but the dog we got ended up not being the easy, ideal dog that the rescuer thought she was when we adopted).

 

In your case, with such an extreme reaction to the crate, I would wonder if the dog had been abused by being cooped up for hours in a crate or cage. You could try leaving the door open and putting food in the crate to see if the dog would willingly then start to go in on it's own. I would not even attempt to shut the door until the dog were very comfortable going in there and staying there a bit of it's own volition. This whole process could take a long time and if the dog was abused that way, might never work.

 

I don't have any suggestions for the baby and dog though. At least not right now.

[Tap]

I am not a dog lover in general but I do like dogs and was raised with big dogs.

 

I wonder if the dog sees the baby as more of a threat because the baby leaves her the toys on the floor and comes back to get them later. The dog sees this day in and out, and maybe has even been told to leave the babies toys alone. Now, the dog has the treat, and is telling the baby to leave his treat alone.

 

It isn't like the dog can have a chat with the baby.....

 

To me, it sounds like the the dog warned the baby to back off, but in a different way that you have seen before. My concern is the escalation of behavior in the dog, from growl to a snap. The dog didn't have contact with the baby, but something is different this time.

 

If you know there are going to be times when you can't keep them separate, I would start looking for ways to partition off areas where the baby can't go, and the dog can't go....and stick to it all day, every day. Then only feed the dog in that space so he can feel safer from the baby.

 

MY mil rescues rots that need a new home due to the owner's circumstance (not ones with existing behavior issues) which is often elderly going into nursing homes. She has 4 most of the time and takes excellent care of them in a tiny home w/ acreage. Her whole house is under 600sqft. One thing that she has always been very, very strict about is that the dogs get fed at the same time each day, in the same spots every time and then food and bowls are put away. Same for treats, they are dropped in the same location as each dogs feeding spot. They are enjoyed there and are picked up if there is any remaining. Chew toys are only allowed outside. A few dogs have 'lovies' that they keep on their over sized beds but they aren't all over the house. If there are guests, the dogs must be in a calm state or they are put in a bed room. The dogs will even request to be put in a bedroom if it gets too noisy. :0)

 

I know you say that you have an open space but I wonder if you can't employ some similar rules for dog and baby.

 

While my mommy instinct says "rehome the dog", my logical brain says the dog was set up to fail. I think the dog probably acted like it sees the humans do by scolding the baby for getting too close to something he shouldn't have been that close to.

 

If the dog snap because the baby was just cruising by, that would be different. But in this case, I think the dog was saying "my space, my treat, try to get it and I will take it back one way or another".

 

If you don't think you family can train baby and dog to be in separate areas, then yeah, rehome the dog. If you don't feel like you can prevent a similar situation from happening again, rehome the dog. If you are willing to try, you may find that you never see the problem again.

[KellyGirl]

Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this issue. Here is where we are for now: The dog does have her own little alcove with her crate and dish. She does occasionally go to her crate during the day, but she reaaallllly prefers to be where the people are.

 

The rawhide has been moved to the crate. The dog keeps taking it back out to her pillow. I keep putting it back. She is a little confused and even seems sad about it right now, but I'm hoping that in a day or two she will catch on and just go in there to chew on it. Right now she gives up after 3 or 4 tries and comes out without the bone. Then sneaks it out again later:tongue_smilie:

 

I am encouraging the baby and the dog to leave each other alone and had already begun training the baby to stay out of the dog's spaces. I am going to take the time to carefully read everything that was linked in this thread and maybe check out some resources from the library as well.

 

Yesterday morning (just like last time) the dog immediately sought to show us how much she likes the baby - as if to say "I know you don't like what I did, and I'm sorry." So for now she stays and we try to find a way to make it work. If we have another incident we may have to rehome the dog. Hopefully we don't have another incident.

[3littlekeets]

And your dog did not nip. He air snapped. If he had bitten, there would have been contact with skin. Your dog showed amazing SELF control. Good boy!

 

 

Dogs are not all Lassie.

 

Dogs growl, and dogs air snap & sometimes, dogs bite. A dog bite =/= aggressive dog.

 

Let me repeat - a dog bite =/= aggressive dog

 

A dog who growls or air snaps is not an aggressive dog - not on the basis of that evidence alone. You need to look at a much, much larger picture.

 

 

That's like saying the 3yo who pushed her brother & he fell down & sprained his wrist is aggressive. Or the 2yo who repeatedly bit one of my toddlers on playdates. Also not an aggressive child.

 

These kids were communicating something & where things went wrong is

a) kids don't fully understand yet that this is not the preferred communication method

b) kids were so frustrated with other communication methods not working that they resorted to the one that does sort of work.

 

I'm framing this in the context of toddlers b/e most dogs are pretty much like toddlers & we seem to be better at understanding toddlers & not labelling them.

 

 

I grew up with dogs, & yeah, I've been bitten. Our foxterrier bit everyone in our family several times. Nobody ever said get rid of the dog. The question was: what did you do to the dog? And then the answer came. And then the response was: well, I guess that was a stupid thing to do. And it pretty much always was. The dog was not aggressive. She was being pushed beyond what was reasonable (& we just did not know any better but at least we did not ever threaten to get rid of her)

 

 

 

Your dog is resource guarding & he's unhappy about the crawling baby.

 

Supervise.

 

Only give food to the dog when he's in a crate or safely behind a baby gate in another room.

 

This has nothing with pack order or domainance.

 

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) position statement on dominance:

 

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

 

"Despite the fact that advances in behavior research have modified our understanding of social hierarchies in wolves, many animal trainers continue to base their training methods on outdated perceptions of dominance

 

 

theory."

 

This pdf statement includes a good discussion of common dominance myths, and wolf & dog behaviour. It's a myth - this stuff. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the old belief that medical problems were caused by imbalance of the 4 humors and that leeches & cupping & blood letting were how you cured disease. It's the same level of misunderstanding.

 

 

You are dealing with a resource guarder.

 

Let me ask you this:

-is this dog walked on leash 2-3 times a day?

-have you been training this dog on your own or taking him to an obedience class?

-have you taught him any tricks?

-have you got him involved in tracking?

-does he got to parks & play with other dogs?

 

IOW - how rich is his life?

 

I suspect he's bored out of his mind. The chew treats become the only important thing in your life when you have little else to look forward to.

 

Here's what you need:

 

MINE! A practical guide to resource guarding in dogs by Jean Donaldson

http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281537874&sr=8-1

 

& here is an article which explains how a dog owner overcame resource guarding with her golden (a golden who growls??? Kill it shrieks the chorus! :glare:)

 

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/objectguarding.htm

 

The MINE! book is $10 and obviously goes into much more detail than this article but this is the same idea.

 

Is your dog worth $10 and some time to fix or are you going to dump or euthenize?

 

The phrase - 'the dog will be gone' or 'we had to get rid of' are such vague terms.

 

Let's talk reality: either you arrange to have the dog killed, or the shelter will kill it for you, OR - small chance a private adopter will take the dog off your hands, OR a broker posing as a private adopter will take it off your hands & sell it to a testing lab (they LOVE beagles in animal testing labs!) OR......& it's a very small tiny chance 'or', a rescue will step forward and someone will foster the dog & rehab it & spend a lot of time and our own money to repair YOUR dog & give it a "happy ever after" home. But that's a very small OR. There are plenty of dogs for rescues to work with, they don't need another one with issues.

 

This very tired foster & rehabber hopes that YOU will deal with it. Do the right thing.

 

 

 

 

 

B.R.A.V.O.!!!! Great advice for ANY dog owner. So often we forget the basics.

[unsinkable]

And your dog did not nip. He air snapped. If he had bitten, there would have been contact with skin. Your dog showed amazing SELF control. Good boy!

 

 

Dogs are not all Lassie.

 

Dogs growl, and dogs air snap & sometimes, dogs bite. A dog bite =/= aggressive dog.

 

Let me repeat - a dog bite =/= aggressive dog

 

A dog who growls or air snaps is not an aggressive dog - not on the basis of that evidence alone. You need to look at a much, much larger picture.

 

 

That's like saying the 3yo who pushed her brother & he fell down & sprained his wrist is aggressive. Or the 2yo who repeatedly bit one of my toddlers on playdates. Also not an aggressive child.

 

These kids were communicating something & where things went wrong is

a) kids don't fully understand yet that this is not the preferred communication method

b) kids were so frustrated with other communication methods not working that they resorted to the one that does sort of work.

 

I'm framing this in the context of toddlers b/e most dogs are pretty much like toddlers & we seem to be better at understanding toddlers & not labelling them.

 

 

I grew up with dogs, & yeah, I've been bitten. Our foxterrier bit everyone in our family several times. Nobody ever said get rid of the dog. The question was: what did you do to the dog? And then the answer came. And then the response was: well, I guess that was a stupid thing to do. And it pretty much always was. The dog was not aggressive. She was being pushed beyond what was reasonable (& we just did not know any better but at least we did not ever threaten to get rid of her)

 

 

 

Your dog is resource guarding & he's unhappy about the crawling baby.

 

Supervise.

 

Only give food to the dog when he's in a crate or safely behind a baby gate in another room.

 

This has nothing with pack order or domainance.

 

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) position statement on dominance:

 

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

"Despite the fact that advances in behavior research have modified our understanding of social hierarchies in wolves, many animal trainers continue to base their training methods on outdated perceptions of dominance theory."

This pdf statement includes a good discussion of common dominance myths, and wolf & dog behaviour. It's a myth - this stuff. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the old belief that medical problems were caused by imbalance of the 4 humors and that leeches & cupping & blood letting were how you cured disease. It's the same level of misunderstanding.

 

 

You are dealing with a resource guarder.

 

Let me ask you this:

-is this dog walked on leash 2-3 times a day?

-have you been training this dog on your own or taking him to an obedience class?

-have you taught him any tricks?

-have you got him involved in tracking?

-does he got to parks & play with other dogs?

 

IOW - how rich is his life?

 

I suspect he's bored out of his mind. The chew treats become the only important thing in your life when you have little else to look forward to.

 

Here's what you need:

 

MINE! A practical guide to resource guarding in dogs by Jean Donaldson

http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281537874&sr=8-1

 

& here is an article which explains how a dog owner overcame resource guarding with her golden (a golden who growls??? Kill it shrieks the chorus! :glare:)

 

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/objectguarding.htm

 

The MINE! book is $10 and obviously goes into much more detail than this article but this is the same idea.

 

Is your dog worth $10 and some time to fix or are you going to dump or euthenize?

 

The phrase - 'the dog will be gone' or 'we had to get rid of' are such vague terms.

 

Let's talk reality: either you arrange to have the dog killed, or the shelter will kill it for you, OR - small chance a private adopter will take the dog off your hands, OR a broker posing as a private adopter will take it off your hands & sell it to a testing lab (they LOVE beagles in animal testing labs!) OR......& it's a very small tiny chance 'or', a rescue will step forward and someone will foster the dog & rehab it & spend a lot of time and our own money to repair YOUR dog & give it a "happy ever after" home. But that's a very small OR. There are plenty of dogs for rescues to work with, they don't need another one with issues.

 

This very tired foster & rehabber hopes that YOU will deal with it. Do the right thing.

 

First, I love you. :D

 

Second, when I saw the MINE!, my thought was, "Hornblower wrote a book!" But then I read closely. Darn.

 

Third, thanks for being such a great resource for doggie people on this board. I "get" something from all your dog posts.

[unsinkable]

The dog SOMETIMES gets walked twice a day?

 

Rehome her. She deserves better.

 

I've never known a dog that didn't at LEAST get 3 walks a day, as a minimum standard. First thing in the am, as soon as folks get home from work, again before bed.

 

We had a Pug that was walked 4-5x a day.

 

I can't imagine a beagle being cooped up in the house, all that high energy, and *might* get 2 walks a day.

 

Wow. I can walk our block and point out all the dogs that NEVER get walked. NEVER.

[unsinkable]

I'm sure she would enjoy more frequent walks, and I'm not saying it's right...but there are easily 10 dogs on our block and ours is the only one that even gets walked regularly. She does go out back to go potty and sometimes hangs out, but she usually chooses to come right back in.

 

Kelly,

 

I'm with you. I truly think it is more common here to NOT walk dogs.

 

I hope your situation works out! :grouphug:

[unsinkable]

I've got to stick my nose in. One of our border collies has bitten three of us, including me, and pretty durn good bites they were too. Why? Because Hank can not be sane when he hears us start up a four wheeler. He completely loses his mind, starts snapping and biting the tires and anything else that gets in the way, (like our legs) and doesn't come to until he's satisfied himself that he's attacked it enough. Takes about five minutes.

 

What do we do about Hank? Put him up when we have to go somewhere on the wheeler. Or else put our legs waaay up on the front until he can calm down and run with us.

 

This is the best line ever! Good thing Hank's a dog

[Impish]

Wow. I can walk our block and point out all the dogs that NEVER get walked. NEVER.

Anyone that can't be bothered to exercise their dog shouldn't be allowed to have them, imo. Its cruel to the animal. The idea that a dog is never walked is ridiculous.

 

I get that in a working setting a dog could be active enough not to require it, but the majority of dogs don't 'work'.

[unsinkable]

Anyone that can't be bothered to exercise their dog shouldn't be allowed to have them, imo. Its cruel to the animal. The idea that a dog is never walked is ridiculous.

 

I get that in a working setting a dog could be active enough not to require it, but the majority of dogs don't 'work'.

 

Impish,

 

I am talking about the reality of my little suburban block, not what should really happen. I am talking about 1 block on a very long street...and only 2 of 8 dogs are consistently walked (mine and a little white puffball).

 

Now, in the wider neighborhood, many dogs are walked. They come by the house and the Head of Homeland Security lets us know they're out there.

 

For me, I think it points to a mindset that, if it shifts, might lead to less unwanted dogs. Regular, consistent walks helps dogs be happy & healthy. What a concept.

[zaichiki]

The idea that a dog is never walked is ridiculous.

 

We rarely walk our dog. She's getting old and spends all her outdoors time lying in the sun. She gets her exercise playing fetch with the kids, but she tires quickly nowadays and the games are short.

 

We used to walk her a mile or more a day. In good weather that happened several times a day. She enjoyed it. We all did (kids on bikes and toddler in stroller).

 

Walking a dog depends on the breed, age, and personality. Some dogs just want to go potty and go back to lying in the sun. It's not cruel to let them do that.

[Impish]

We rarely walk our dog. She's getting old and spends all her outdoors time lying in the sun. She gets her exercise playing fetch with the kids, but she tires quickly nowadays and the games are short.

 

We used to walk her a mile or more a day. In good weather that happened several times a day. She enjoyed it. We all did (kids on bikes and toddler in stroller).

 

Walking a dog depends on the breed, age, and personality. Some dogs just want to go potty and go back to lying in the sun. It's not cruel to let them do that.

There's a huge difference btwn a dog thats never been walked, and an elderly dog that is no longer able/capable of doing so.

 

Again, I'm referring to city pet dogs, not working herd dogs, or those that have an acreage to romp about in.

 

I can't think of a breed of dog that wouldn't benefit from a daily walk/walks. I'm in complete agreement with unsinkable. 'Regular, consistent walks helps dogs to be happy & healthy'. Wouldn't hurt the average dog owner either.

 

What unsinkable describes, is, imo, ridiculous and cruel. To not provide regular exercise for a dog is denying it a basic need, the same as food and water. If a person cannot commit to that, then they should stick to fish, or perhaps a cat. It honestly angers me to think of people simply choosing not to do so for a pet thats so dependant upon them...There's no way every dog on unsinkable's block is age/health compromised to the point of never being walked.

 

And when one of those dogs tunnels under the fence, eats a wall or couch, chances are the owners will rehome and replace, blaming the innocent for their willful ignorance.

 

Seriously, I can't think of anyone not thinking that daily exercise was a basic need for a dog. Gah! :banghead: (Aimed at unsinkable's neighbours)

[hornblower]

Reading with interest, as we have an older rescue dog, and a baby about to start crawling. This is the first baby in the house since we got the dog 2.5 yrs ago.

 

 

xpen panels will work over larger areas than a baby gate. also b/e an xpen can be set up quite large, it might not feel at all like a crate

 

This is what I'm talking about: http://www.petsolutions.com/Images.aspx?ItemID=27700131

 

They come in different sizes & heights & you can get more than one set of them to link together.

 

If you set up a whole ring inside, it will support itself. To set up just panels, I've seen people use some boards on the bottom to help stabilize - not sure if this is something people just rig themselves or if someone sells them now.

 

In the Sue Ailsby clicker training levels, she begins crate in Level 2 (so technically you should make sure you have all the Level 1 bhvrs before you get her but I wouldn't sweat it).

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20dogs/levels/ByLevel/2Level.html

 

It's the second bhvr down. I would work this very, very slowly. As Sue suggests, break the crate up or use a box. Make it at first a targetting exercise - here is a target, go 'hit it' with your feet.

Don't rush. Once you've got level 2 comfortable, then slowly move to the level 3 crate bhvr.

 

BUT, I also think a dog with the sort of anxiety that damages itself like that, might benefit from some pharmaceutical intervention. Lots of vets are now more familiar with using psychiatric drugs in dogs.

 

Does the dog still suffer from huge SA?

[hornblower]

First, I love you. :D

 

Second, when I saw the MINE!, my thought was, "Hornblower wrote a book!" But then I read closely. Darn.

 

Third, thanks for being such a great resource for doggie people on this board. I "get" something from all your dog posts.

 

LOL -

 

second: I wish! It's all been said (& so darn well) already that I just keep quoting & recommending other people.

 

third: Awww. I'm glad, really glad to hear it. I love dogs & I want people to love living with dogs. I think so many times people are not aware of the great possibilities of really getting to know your dog. Most people are just scratching the surface.

 

It's like having some amazing computer with tons of software & graphics & capabilities and just using it to check a hotmail account and nothing else, kwim? And then saying, gee, this computer thing is boring & my hotmail acct sucks, & shoving it in the closet.

 

& Apart from the pure joy of dogs, the whole science of learning - wow, just amazing. I mean, Karen Pryor taught a hermit crab to ring a bell!

 

first: :001_wub:Thanks for all the clicks & treats for me. I like rewards :D

 

mwah darlings!

Edited August 12, 2010 by hornblower

[mycalling]

I personally would not keep a dog that couldn't be a full part of our family. If I had to worry non-stop about keeping a dog and a child separate, it is not Family.

 

We had a choc lab for 6 1/2yrs, had two children she adored then twins she had no respect for. It just escalated from stepping on them, growling, and nipping the air to trampling them, barking at them, and nipping them. All the bribing with treats, petting, playing with her didn't change her mind about them. We kept her and tried to foster relationships for 20mo after having the twins. She now lives with a family with older girls and a pond.