Heather in Neverland Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Read an interesting blog entry today about this topic: http://groansfromwithin.com/2010/06/29/unpopular-annual-post-why-christianity-and-the-4th-are-incompatible-or-why-this-is-not-a-day-to-celebrate-or-why-my-friends-wont-like-me-for-the-next-week-or-so/ Still mulling it over.... What says the hive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 My crowd debates every year whether one should celebrate secular, nationalistic holidays (Thanksgiving, Independence Day, etc.) or not. Personally, I plan to celebrate the feast of St. Elizabeth of Portugal with barbecue and fireworks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I thought you were celebrating the birth of your country as an independent nation. I can't see how that is un-Christian. That is politics and not religion as far as one can extract religion from anything in a religious person's life. If you were celebrating the violence of war and had called it "We killed the Brits Day" I'd say your focus lacked a bit of peace and love! Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaffodilDreams Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 If you were celebrating the violence of war and had called it "We killed the Brits Day" I'd say your focus lacked a bit of peace and love! Rosie :lol::lol::lol: Love falling asleep to a laugh. Thanks, Rosie! You just may have made pleasant dreams possible for me tonight (umm, morning! up way too late thanks to the lure of the hive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) I don't know why it would be unChristian to blow things up. We intend to blow things up with fervor this weekend. I totally disagree with that blog. I am afraid a couple of centuries ago we would be sniffing with disapproval over the Loyalist blogger over our Liberty Coffees as we sewed gowns from Liberty sackcloth and plotted to inoculate ourselves with small pox. Canada indeed. *glare* Edited June 30, 2010 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Well, her argument is just one of a few that I agree with in regards to why not to celebrate nationalistic holidays or do other patriotic acts. I am grateful to live in this country in that I enjoy the options and opportunities available here. I have access to protection, am free from certain fears, can celebrate and practice my faith, etc. There are 30 lands in this world where my people are "underground" and plenty of places where there is still penalty for living as they believe (jail for not saluting flags, beaten for refusing patriotic acts or participating in the military, etc). But in the end, I support only ONE government. And only ONE king. And I certainly don't support imperfect man killing off his own, hatred, war, and other things God has said are detestable. I realize that is how things are done as man proves he cannot rule himself, but it's sad, not a celebration, ime. One day, the wicked one will be done away with. There will be a righteous new government with the best king of all time. All people will be united under Love. There will be TRUE peace and security worldwide. And there will be a real celebration of genuine freedom forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Are you kidding me? There would BE no USA if it weren't for the Revolution. Not celebrating because it was violent? Why do people acknowledge Good Friday? Doesn't that commemorate the violent act of crucifixion? How about Memorial Day or Veteran's Day? Should we not honor and respect the soldiers who have given their lives? Actually, the 4th does NOT celebrate the war, it celebrates the official adoption of the Declaration of Independence (though the signing wasn't completed until August), not the war. Good grief. IMO, all of us, especially homeschoolers (remember this is illegal in a lot of countries), should show respect and celebrate the fact the we, by sheer luck were born in a country of freedom. There are people all over the world who would give anything to have what we have. Sure, sure, I get that you're free to not celebrate too, but show some respect for those who have fought for those freedoms. Believe me when I tell you that no one hates war more than military families and to not celebrate the founding of our country is a slap in the face to all those who have sacrificed so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I could get offended by this thread, and I have very thick skin, but I won't and here's why. My husband deploys 6 months out of the year so that we can all do and say what we want. SO - if you want to chose to not celebrate the birth of modern democracy, freedom, and liberty - have at. Personally I think anyone who doesn't want to celebrate the 4th has every right not to, but should consider going to live in another country for just a little while - long enough to realize just how much they take for granted here. Some may want to rethink the "my God doesn't condone killing and war..." idea. In the Old Testament the Christian God condoned far worse than the War of Independence. Also, Christianity and the Ten Commandments are opposed to "Murder" (the original aramaic and Greek word in the commandment) not to killing. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) I think her facts are a little shaky or overly simplistic. Such as saying that Canada was given it's freedom a few (90) years later anyway, so it was pointless to fight the Revolutionary war. The obvious thought is to wonder: if there had been no Revolutionary War or War of 1812, would Britain have given away Canada? Or did those wars prompt Britain to pull back? I'm not a scholar on the revolution (because we haven't learned that yet in homeschool :tongue_smilie:), but weren't the colonists having more trouble than taxes? I think the problems were much deeper seated than, "We have to pay a penny on every dollar?! Let's go to war!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there a number of vital and urgent issues that their government (Britian) was ignoring and not handling properly? Edited June 30, 2010 by Garga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 The first thing that popped out at me was the line about celebrating winning our freedom on July 4th. Actually, we declared our freedom on July 4th, we didn't win it until the Battle of Yorktown, many battles and hardships later. It's nice that Britain decided to give Canada, Australia and New Zealand their political independence without a war, but I doubt that would have happened without the American revolution. In fact, I doubt Bolivar and San Martin would have liberated South America or the French revolution would have wiped out absolute monarchy without the example of July 4th. It's amazing that such a powerful idea got off the ground in a colonial backwater and that it spread like wildfire around the world. It certainly deserves a few fireworks and a wienie roast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 It's interesting because this blog article popped up on my FB and I read it and I had never honestly even thought about whether or not we "should" celebrate 4th of July but apparently there are people on both sides who feel very strongly about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anissa Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Sailormom, I want to thank your husband and you for your sacrifice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Anissa, thank you - that was very kind. DH loves his job, has been in the military for 18 years now, and we wouldn't change a thing (although the deployments are getting a little old...) We studied the Revolution for about 6 months in our homeschool. We also spent a total of 3 years studying in depth our nation from the colonies to the modern day. Also - I'm currently getting my masters in History.... It did go far deeper (not just taxes, but trade agreements, and harmful effects on trade and the colonists efforts to earn money independently), and had a huge impact on world politics. The French Revolution was absolutely inspired by our revolution, and I agree - 90 years for Canada is not a "few". I am also not a fan of "what if" history. It is completely arbitrary and non-academic. In fact - it is considered quite unhistorical by professional historians. By stating we "probably would have" gotten our independence eventually, they are using non-facts to support an argument. And eventual independence does not mean a Republic and democracy - New Zealand still has no actual constitution, has a Queen as head of state, with a Prime Minister and is run by parlaiment (democratically elected) - but that is a very different system than ours. I get a little fired up on this, so I apologize if I am coming across to strong. Everyone has a right to have their own opinions and to celebrate or not - but I do think historical accuracy and a good base of knowledge is necesarry before deciding whether to celebrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I think the concept of not celebrating Independence Day is ridiculous. I also agree that other countries may not have gained their Independence without the USA fighting for theirs first. However, NZ is a full democracy, just because it has no constitution, doesn't mean it's any less of a democracy and the Queen as head of state is a figurehead and has no bearing on the day to day operation of the country. Most commonwealth countries still have the Queen as figurehead head of state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Sandra - I'm sorry if my post implied New Zealand wasn't a democracy (that was not my intention) - but I wanted to point out that although democratic, it is a very different system than ours - and that what we have may not have come about if we had waited for the Brits to cut us loose. I have very good friends who are Kiwis (military spouses tend to be from all over the world) and we talk a lot about politics. New Zealand has a lot going for it, and I have respect for their form of government (but still prefer ours...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Interesting. I love celebrating our freedom (and don't plan to stop), but I have to admit it doesn't seem like the New Testament places much importance on secular/material freedom. And I do prefer that the Fourth of July stay out of my church service. I don't mind prayers for the nation (in fact, I miss them being part of the service every week at my current church), but I like them to stay humble. I think the USA is a great place to live, but it doesn't have a corner on all that is good in the world and I believe we can and should learn from the good qualities of other countries and cultures. One of the reasons I enjoy the Fourth of July is that it is a holiday that spans religious differences in our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 We celebrate the 4th and not only have fun, but usually review our memory work of parts of the Declaration of Independence, The Preamble to the Constitution and 1st Amendment, the Gettysburg Address, and the I Have a Dream speech. I grew up near Valley Forge, a family member lives in a house where a girl lived who warned the troops that the British were coming, etc. I also think our response to our veterans returning from Viet Nam was a travesty and that people serving in our military and needing food stamps is a travesty. I deeply admire and appreciate the courage and selflessness of those in our military willing to risk their lives to defend us. That being said, I have to say that it is likely that I would have been a Tory or neutral based on Scripture. There is no doubt that the war was over taxation without representation and the British king acting like a monarch rather than extending the full range of representative government practiced in England to which the colonists understandably felt entitled. I see no justification for fighting on these grounds anywhere in Scripture . When the NT was written, Rome was in much the same position as the colonists--the emperors had usurped republican rule and the people despised the taxes--yet there is no call to arms in the NT. I think mixing God and country is a dangerous temptation to those who follow Jesus as King. Our first loyalty is to our citizenship in heaven. We are to look to the good of the land where we find ourselves, and that can include military service and a certain level of patiotism but that shouldn't trump our heavenly citizenship and loyalties. It appears to me that Enlightenment thinking propelled the Revolution forward, not biblical thinking. It's harder to see the dividing line between heavenly and earthly citizenship when it's your own country: how many German Christians got sucked into the Nazi regime? (Yes, I know there were those who kept their citizenship priorities intact like Ten Boom and Bonhoeffer.) With regard to the Revolution, some Christian groups such as the Quakers abstained because of their beliefs about government/war/Christian involvement. Anglican Christians were Tories. John Wesley maintained a fairly neutral stance; while he believed that Britain had acted improperly, he didn't support war as a means of addressing it, IIRC. What the blogger is saying is that she is uncomfortable celebrating an outcome that provides us with good things when she is uncomfortable with the means to that end. Her position is something that Christians ought to be comfortable thinking about and patriots ought to be comfortable supporting as well: freedom of religion and freedom of speech are both American values that are being expressed in her blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I guess that it is rather subjective whether you think the 4th of July celebrates war or not. It seems to me that celebrating the anniversary of the Declaration rather than the surrender at Yorktown or the first battles at Lexington and Concord shows where we put the emphasis. That being on our divinely granted rights and independence rather than on military victory and bloodshed. Thus we celebrate those freedoms which we have been "endowed by our creator." I'm not sure I see the disconnect with as much strength as the blog writer does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/americanrevolution/a/amrevcauses.htm This is a great condensed version of the history. What I find interresting is that many Christians at the time felt that having a "divine" king in England went against their religious beliefs, and that an "all men are created equal" democracy was more in lines with the teaching of Christianity. Granted - I think this was a minor issue when compared with trade, taxes, and territory, but the Christians in that era were quite divided - Quakers abstained - Puritans supported revolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Drat it. Some days I miss rep. Excellent post, Laurie4b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 In my heart, Independence Day is the "birthday" of the US. I have enough love for the country God gave me to LOVE celebrating her birthday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I'm just a Jew living a more secular lifestyle than a religious one so take my opinion with a grain of salt if you want lol, but I cannot fathom how a day of celebrating our country's independence/freedom is anti-religious at all. By the way, I have a brother who will be "celebrating" the 4th of July on deployment in Afghanistan. Keep him in your thoughts, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I'm just a Jew living a more secular lifestyle than a religious one so take my opinion with a grain of salt if you want lol, but I cannot fathom how a day of celebrating our country's independence/freedom is anti-religious at all. By the way, I have a brother who will be "celebrating" the 4th of July on deployment in Afghanistan. Keep him in your thoughts, please. Well said! We have many, many, many friends who are "celebrating" the 4th in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's only by sheer luck that dh isn't there. He spent two 4ths, several birthdays, and a few anniversaries, as well as hundreds of regular days in the sandbox. You'd better believe we celebrate our freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 By the way, I have a brother who will be "celebrating" the 4th of July on deployment in Afghanistan. Keep him in your thoughts, please. :grouphug: I will keep him in my prayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I thought you were celebrating the birth of your country as an independent nation. I can't see how that is un-Christian. That is politics and not religion as far as one can extract religion from anything in a religious person's life. If you were celebrating the violence of war and had called it "We killed the Brits Day" I'd say your focus lacked a bit of peace and love! Rosie :lol: Seriously though, good points. From a Christian perspective, the birth of this country has meant many years of religious freedom and the growth of churches, Christian charities and charity in general. I understand that the blogger is tying it to guns and war and all, but really, he's also overlooking things like Matt. 21:12 and Eph. 6:10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) :lol: Seriously though, good points. From a Christian perspective, the birth of this country has meant many years of religious freedom and the growth of churches, Christian charities and charity in general. I understand that the blogger is tying it to guns and war and all, but really, he's also overlooking things like Matt. 21:12 and Eph. 6:10. Eccl 3:8 (a time for war and a time for peace) came to mind. And doesn't Revelation say something about a war in Heaven? So, no, all things considered, I'm not buying what the blogger the OP referenced is selling. Edited June 30, 2010 by Parrothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhudson Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Having now done the entire cycle of history, which I didn't in school, it seems pretty clear to me that what the founding fathers and the nation as a whole did was fairly incredible. No one could emulate their success ( it took the French - 3 times I think to get it right) and it was one of the first chinks in the crack of the UK. Who could say whether Canada, Aus, or NZ would have had their freedom as easily if the US hadn't done it first? The blogger is using unclear thinking at best. Our family celebrates the 4th of July as it is a monumental day in history and we use it to remember the people who have died and sacrificed for our freedoms - including the right to free speech which the blogger is using freely.Thank you to those families who are still doing that today. God in the Old Testament used war as a means to end, in fact, he not only condoned it but blessed it at times. I am not a war-monger but lets look at the Bible as a whole not merely as a segment. Do I think that God would prefer man to not use war as a means to solve problems? Absolutely, but I also think that at times, God knew that it was the only answer because man is stubborn and sinful. I also think God knows that we need to celebrate what is good and courageous in this world. Look at how many feasts and festivals the Old Testament Jews celebrated and some of them their freedom from persecution. I think it is right and good and Godly to celebrate the 4th of July. I don't worship the U.S. but I can be grateful and celebrate the good that has come from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Drat it. Some days I miss rep. Excellent post, Laurie4b. :iagree:But, jftr, Corrie ten Boom was Dutch, not German.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdalley Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I find it ironic that Jesus violently died for freedom but we - as Christians (and according to what this blogger puts forth)- are not supposed to make or honor a sacrifice? The Founding Fathers waged a battle for Independence partly in the name of freedom. Wasn't that what Jesus came to sacrifice for? Freedom? It's a fine thing to dislike war but war is sometimes necessary. I've always believed if I didn't believe in something enough to die for it I really don't believe in anything worth believing in. If the above makes no sense I plead head cold and sinus meds. It made more sense in my head.:D And my husband will proudly sing downtown on July 3rd in a Christian program on our Riverfront to honor the birthday of our Country. If that offends the blogger - oh well. I'm sorta like St. Paul - my stumbling block isn't the same as someone else. If they don't like the 4th fine. As a Christian I don't have a problem with it in regards to my faith. Makes me no less a Christian and their lack of desire to celebrate it makes them no less a Christian to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 The first thing that popped out at me was the line about celebrating winning our freedom on July 4th. Actually, we declared our freedom on July 4th, we didn't win it until the Battle of Yorktown, many battles and hardships later. It's nice that Britain decided to give Canada, Australia and New Zealand their political independence without a war, but I doubt that would have happened without the American revolution. In fact, I doubt Bolivar and San Martin would have liberated South America or the French revolution would have wiped out absolute monarchy without the example of July 4th. It's amazing that such a powerful idea got off the ground in a colonial backwater and that it spread like wildfire around the world. It certainly deserves a few fireworks and a wienie roast! Right. I totally agree. When I helped teach a history co-op a couple of years ago I put different events on different colored cardstock-red for England, white for the US, blue for France, green for other countries and put them on a timeline. None of these events happened in a vacuum and it's pretty amazing to think of how one event impacted the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter's Moon Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) The U.S. was founded on religious freedom, so I am not quite sure how Independence Day would be considered Christian or un-Christian. MY family celebrates it as America's freedom. It is not a religious holiday in our home. It is simply an "American holiday", IMHO. Edited June 30, 2010 by BeatleMania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 "The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instill more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state." The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries, August Neander. Early Christians didn't become involved in nationalistic issues or celebrations, because they viewed themselves as having a separate "citizenship" as Christians. The idea of a Christian being involved in any kind of nationalism would have been foreign to them. Christians were drawn into nationalism when political leaders realized they could use Christianity to their advantage, as Constantine did. It is a valid question to ask does becoming involved in nationalism compromise a Christian's loyalty to their heavenly Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) Well, her argument is just one of a few that I agree with in regards to why not to celebrate nationalistic holidays or do other patriotic acts. I am grateful to live in this country in that I enjoy the options and opportunities available here. I have access to protection, am free from certain fears, can celebrate and practice my faith, etc. There are 30 lands in this world where my people are "underground" and plenty of places where there is still penalty for living as they believe (jail for not saluting flags, beaten for refusing patriotic acts or participating in the military, etc). But in the end, I support only ONE government. And only ONE king. And I certainly don't support imperfect man killing off his own, hatred, war, and other things God has said are detestable. I realize that is how things are done as man proves he cannot rule himself, but it's sad, not a celebration, ime. One day, the wicked one will be done away with. There will be a righteous new government with the best king of all time. All people will be united under Love. There will be TRUE peace and security worldwide. And there will be a real celebration of genuine freedom forever. Good point... I kinda sway toward this POV. (But am not of Pamela's denomination?) I also think of the Diest/Masonic beliefs of some of the founding fathers and their weaving in with that belief in what we now see as patriotic. Toss in my personal family/lineage of being the second-class citizen as a minority -- Tejano, Native American, poor, etc. But greatful for the freedoms I have today. Mixed feelings. Now inclined to see God first -- far above country, kwim? ETA: I'd personally prefer to celebrate the 4th as a secular holiday -- good reason to be with family & friends. I am in great debt to those who went to war for my freedoms. But the minute you bring up the 4th as spiritual (which it is -- long story -- but from a Masonic ceremony POV.) then I don't wish to do that. Idolatry. Gets into a sticky wicket. Edited June 30, 2010 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 "The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instill more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state." The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries, August Neander. Early Christians didn't become involved in nationalistic issues or celebrations, because they viewed themselves as having a separate "citizenship" as Christians. The idea of a Christian being involved in any kind of nationalism would have been foreign to them. Christians were drawn into nationalism when political leaders realized they could use Christianity to their advantage, as Constantine did. It is a valid question to ask does becoming involved in nationalism compromise a Christian's loyalty to their heavenly Lord. :iagree: This is exactly what I am struggling with -- do I put nation first before my Lord? I say no. I guess technically, I am not patriotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mama2cntrykids Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 In my heart, Independence Day is the "birthday" of the US. I have enough love for the country God gave me to LOVE celebrating her birthday. :001_smile:Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest janainaz Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Politics and religion are one in the same these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Politics and religion are one in the same these days. Another good point. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I skimmed through this article - more interested in the guys who run this blog, actually, their names rang a bell. I grew up in the denomination they are affiliated with and so this article is very in keeping with the beliefs of those on the more radical side of this denomination. The Mennonites have always been for separation of church and state and during wars are concientious objectors (not all individuals, but as an official church stance, this is true), and are not nationalistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynyel Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Humph...whatever is all I can say. There are quite a few holes in that thinking. Obviously they never took Logic! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I guess that it is rather subjective whether you think the 4th of July celebrates war or not. It seems to me that celebrating the anniversary of the Declaration rather than the surrender at Yorktown or the first battles at Lexington and Concord shows where we put the emphasis. That being on our divinely granted rights and independence rather than on military victory and bloodshed. Thus we celebrate those freedoms which we have been "endowed by our creator." Great distinction, thanks. The first thing that popped out at me was the line about celebrating winning our freedom on July 4th. Actually, we declared our freedom on July 4th, we didn't win it until the Battle of Yorktown, many battles and hardships later. It's nice that Britain decided to give Canada, Australia and New Zealand their political independence without a war, but I doubt that would have happened without the American revolution. In fact, I doubt Bolivar and San Martin would have liberated South America or the French revolution would have wiped out absolute monarchy without the example of July 4th. It's amazing that such a powerful idea got off the ground in a colonial backwater and that it spread like wildfire around the world. It certainly deserves a few fireworks and a wienie roast! :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 So the spin off thread finally motivated me enough to go read the article....and all the commets to said article. My question is this, and it's going to be a major oversimplification so bare with me. Didn't Britain have to send troops over to the colonies? I'm really struggleing with putting this into words, but...did we choose to have a war? Or did Britain choose for us? Does that make sense? To me...it is a different thing intirely...:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) So the spin off thread finally motivated me enough to go read the article....and all the commets to said article. My question is this, and it's going to be a major oversimplification so bare with me. Didn't Britain have to send troops over to the colonies? I'm really struggleing with putting this into words, but...did we choose to have a war? Or did Britain choose for us? Does that make sense? To me...it is a different thing intirely...:glare: Prior to our revolution, there was the French-Indian war which drained much of England's budget. British troops already were here. They ended up taxing us colonists in America to make up costs. We got mad and revolted. 'Twas the first time that the mighty British Empire had its people bark back. Inspired many other nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War Edited June 30, 2010 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 So the spin off thread finally motivated me enough to go read the article....and all the commets to said article. My question is this, and it's going to be a major oversimplification so bare with me. Didn't Britain have to send troops over to the colonies? I'm really struggleing with putting this into words, but...did we choose to have a war? Or did Britain choose for us? Does that make sense? To me...it is a different thing intirely...:glare: Well, there were already British soldiers here. We were a group of British colonies before. The infamous tea tax was instituted in order to help pay for the series of wars Great Britain was fighting with us. eta: Sorry! Tex-Mex said the same thing, we were posting at the same time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Well, there were already British soldiers here. We were a group of British colonies before. The infamous tea tax was instituted in order to help pay for the series of wars Great Britain was fighting with us. eta: Sorry! Tex-Mex said the same thing, we were posting at the same time. :) LOL -- no prob! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Prior to our revolution, there was the French-Indian war which drained much of England's budget. British troops already were here. They ended up taxing us colonists in America to make up costs. We got mad and revolted. Like I said, I was being oversimplistic :) My point was: Britain didn't have to fight...she could have just given us our independence. She (as a nation) made that choice. I guess the argument could be made that we should have just laid down, and accepted Britain rule...but wouldn't that be elevateing a monarchy above God? Okay I know another oversimplification...but the LOGIC doesn't make sense. What was the alternative? how is it any more/less Christian? And I still can't figure out how the 4th is Christian holiday...I thought it was a national one! :glare: That leads me to ask the question....whats wrong with celebrating a national holiday? Does God not like a good celebration? You were bought at a price; Do not become slaves of men. 1 Cor. 7:23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommytobees Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I could get offended by this thread, and I have very thick skin, but I won't and here's why. My husband deploys 6 months out of the year so that we can all do and say what we want. SO - if you want to chose to not celebrate the birth of modern democracy, freedom, and liberty - have at. Personally I think anyone who doesn't want to celebrate the 4th has every right not to, but should consider going to live in another country for just a little while - long enough to realize just how much they take for granted here. Some may want to rethink the "my God doesn't condone killing and war..." idea. In the Old Testament the Christian God condoned far worse than the War of Independence. Also, Christianity and the Ten Commandments are opposed to "Murder" (the original aramaic and Greek word in the commandment) not to killing. Big difference. :hurray::patriot::hurray::patriot::hurray::hurray: You said it, sister! Kris: Navy wife, Army brat, raising 2 Navy Brats, and very proud of my Navy husband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Like I said, I was being oversimplistic :) My point was: Britain didn't have to fight...she could have just given us our independence. She (as a nation) made that choice. I guess the argument could be made that we should have just laid down, and accepted Britain rule...but wouldn't that be elevateing a monarchy above God? Okay I know another oversimplification...but the LOGIC doesn't make sense. What was the alternative? how is it any more/less Christian? And I still can't figure out how the 4th is Christian holiday...I thought it was a national one! :glare: That leads me to ask the question....whats wrong with celebrating a national holiday? Does God not like a good celebration? You were bought at a price; Do not become slaves of men. 1 Cor. 7:23 I don't think anyone saying it is a Christian holiday. I think people are just saying it is not "Un-Christian" to celebrate it. I love the 4th of July. I am excited to be celebrating it with my family. We will be missing my DBIL, who is deployed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I just read a thread on the new homeschooling law in Sweden - it's here on the general board. Sweden is a democracy but does not have a Constitution as we do. This is the same type of government that New Zealand has..... (refering farther back in this thread to the fact that New Zealand was given her independence from the UK in 1907 peacefully). So - again - our nation is a very particular sort of democracy, and the right to homeschool is being hotly contested in many Western countries right now that do not have the same protections we have here. My SIL and BIL and thier 6 children had to flee Germany (also a democracy of a different sort) as they were going to be fined, jailed, and their children taken away from them for homeschooling. I will say - I've thought about this a lot today - the 4th is not a Christian holiday, this is correct, of course. However, there is a huge difference between calling a holdiay secular and calling it "non-Christian" or "anti-Christian". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 (edited) I find it ironic that Jesus violently died for freedom but we - as Christians (and according to what this blogger puts forth)- are not supposed to make or honor a sacrifice? The Founding Fathers waged a battle for Independence partly in the name of freedom. Wasn't that what Jesus came to sacrifice for? Freedom? IMHO, you are speaking of two different kids of 'freedom'. Jesus came to set us free from sin and death. Not from earthly rulers. My views on this topic are not in line with the majority on this board. I do not consider myself patriotic to the USA. My citizenship is in heaven. I do not agree with one person killing another for any reason. And yes, I mean any reason. Come up with whatever scenario you want, the answer is still 'No, I don't believe it's right in any situation for a person to take the life of another'. This is my understanding of the example Christ set for us. I understand that many, MANY others see it differently. (And I hope that anyone who disagrees with my views can understand that I am simply stating my opinion, not casting insults or anything on anyone who things differently.) None of that, however, means I do not appreciate the country I live in, or that I 'take things for granted', as a pp suggested. Everything I have, every worldly freedom, every last thing I enjoy, comes to me by way of the Creator. And I strive to always be grateful for everything he gives me; hard or easy, hill or valley, night or day. :) Edited June 30, 2010 by bethanyniez sp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smrtmama Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 *snort* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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