Does Classical Education KILL the joy of learning?

[Guest bookwormmama]

Another mom on another board I am on said she USED to do classical homeschooling and finally changed her ways and was so glad she did because classical education KILLED the joy of learning in her and her children. She now talks very badly about classical education in that regard. I have heard others make similar remarks as well, and those that have converted to other homeschooling methods in particular.

 

My children are young and we are starting out on this homeschooling journey and I like to glean wisdom from fellow homeschoolers... and I don't want to reinvent the wheel, nor do I want to kill the joy or love of learning in my children either. However, classical education so far seems to be way that makes the most sense to me as a homeschooling mom and fits what I want and desire for my kids. Is it too much for most children? Is it too rigorous and does it kill the joy of learning?

 

I guess I would need to hear from those who have been doing it for awhile... My oldest is almost 10 and seems to love whatever we do. My 8 year old complains about everything... that's just how he is, my 6 year old Aspie would rather play with stuffed animals all day, and my 5 year old would spend all day doing school if I let her! My 4 year old is begging to do school and my 2 year old just wants to play with his cars! LOL

 

What do you think about classical ed killing the joy of learning? Is that a false statement? a result of the parenting style or the educational method or a little of both?

 

Thanks for your time!

[Faithr]

I really think this varies from family to family. I think it depends on your kids approach and learning styles, your approach and teaching style, etc. I myself tried to do WTM as written and it did kill my kids joy in learning. However, when I lightened up and used it more as a reference as opposed to a guide and then adapted things to how we as a family learned best, classical education became a deeply satisfying and joyful thing. Right now I've moved into more of a Latin Centered Curriculum inspired homeschooler with a lot of unschooling thrown in. It works for us.

 

So my answer is: it depends!

[ondreeuh]

JMO :)

 

Classical Education (to my understanding) is a means to an end. The end result is to be a student who possesses a certain set of skills (including thinking skills). To reach that end, children are taught a progression of skills beginning in K. Memorization of facts in the early years is done not for real understanding, but to create "pegs" so that when a child is older they will have that foundation of "knowledge" to refer back to. Classical/WTM is sometimes referred to as a "filling the tank" type of method in the early years. Kids aren't expected to really make their own connections until later.

 

IMO, not all kids are going to be happy with that type of educational experience. Not all parents, although well-meaning, are going to be able to adjust their expectations to their particular child. If you deviate from the plan (maybe your kid isn't ready for Latin, or is a late reader), it can feel like failure. I think some parents feel pressure to cover so much ground that they don't leave time for more relaxed stuff (and by then mom and kids are pooped).

 

I don't think classical ed is responsible for killing the joy of learning, but I can see that if a parent is not flexible than the end result can be too much pressure - which can than affect the joy of learning.

 

Interestingly, I just watched a BBC America segment on schools in Finland. They have a less-is-more philosophy (less time in the classroom, very high outcomes). Their content is rigorous and I wouldn't be surprised if there were similarities to classical ed. It just depends on how it is implemented, I suppose. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8601207.stm

[Crimson Wife]

If a parent insists on using materials that aren't a good "fit" for the particular child, it is unsurprising when the result is negative. Just because program X is recommended in TWTM doesn't mean that it's the best one for the child. Yet that's how certain people interpret it- that if they want to do Classical Ed, then by God the child needs to be doing Saxon Math, FLL, WWE, SWO, Prima Latina, etc., etc.

[Gratia271]

Andrea,

Thanks for that link!

[8filltheheart]

How are you defining classical? Are you following a list or a philosophy?

 

When I read this forum (the k-8), it often feels like that the entire education of the child is attempted to be swallowed in one swoop instead of taking one small step at a time. There is no need for the education of a classically educated child to be more than an hr/day/grade level. It is the over-emphasis on obtaining knowledge which leads to long lists of materials and ultimate burn-out and drudgery.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I would say that much of it has to do with your perception of it and how you use a classical model.

 

If you make education work and a check list and never follow a rabbit trail or model the enjoyment of learning then, yes, it does have the potential to be less than fun and becomes work being done just to check the box.

 

If you love learning, will learn alongside your children, and be a bit flexible on a micro level there is no reason it has to suck the joy out of learning. For many children it enhances the joy and has the potential to create book worms.

 

Do keep in mind that most children don't enjoy all subjects or enjoy every subject every day. There is a difference between I'm bored with history today and classical education is boring.

[Ester Maria]

I don't think schooling should be primarily about the "joy of learning". There is a more or less fixed set of things I want to teach my daughters that I consider to be an educational basis and which also includes the "classical" component, and that they will go through unless their cognitive abilities present an issue (so far so good). If they happen to whine - how to say this nicely? - it's their problem and they have to learn how to deal with things they'll have to do, but won't be as passionate about.

 

I don't think you can have a good, thorough education without a structure. I worked in university (not for long though) and with students from all kinds of educational backgrounds who made there - and after that, with even greater diversity of students of all ages I taught privately. My conclusion has always been that the most well-educated people are the ones who had the most structured education. Classical education as presented on these forums and as described by SWB is one of the models that try to provide with a more or less fixed structure of the kind. It doesn't have to be "fun" or "boring" - but, as any other system, for some it might work 100% in that form, for some it might work with some degree of adaptations, and for some it just doesn't work.

 

Regarding Finnish schools, they have a totally different approach than the classical "gymnasium / lycee" type of schools that are dominant in other parts of Europe. As such, they have their pluses and minuses. I can't really discuss them as I'm familiar only with the basics of how they work, but I'm going to state this - without getting into that discussion again, PISA tests, in my opinion (and not only mine... you'd be surprised how they're viewed in academic circles in Europe, and how much discontent there is about the importance attributed to them), are not a measure of anything. Whether Finnish schools follow a "good" educational philosophy is an open question, and has a lot to do with what you define as goals of education, and as goals of process.

For me, "joy of learning" might not be as high on the priority list as some other things, yet, strangely, I have daughters who love school and my "Austro-Hungarian" (as they like to tease me :p) educational philosophy hasn't killed the joy of anything in them. :D

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I have not read any other replys-- but heres my thought:

 

 

My kids would NOT do well with classical the whole way. They would NOT do well. We do history the classical way, and R&S english (Is that considered classical??:confused:) My kids are way to creative to force that on everything. We enjoy school, we have fun (and learn alot) I know some say fun has no place in school but IMO my kids learn ALOT more and are more willing to learn if they enjoy what they are doing. I have not even read all of WTM. I have read sections-- shhhhhhh (I hope I just did not get myself banished from this board:confused:)

 

We are going to start latin next year. I feel that will be very good to learn to help learn other languages later in our school years.

 

That being said, I LOVE the advice from people on here. I love the support and that people can come here for advice no matter how they school.

 

NOW-- All that being said, what works for my family may not work for your family. What does not work for your friends family might work perfectly for you. I do not feel its right of your friend to talk down about classical education. She may turn somebody away who really thrives on it!

 

So thats my opinion!

[Rosie_0801]

There are a heck of a lot of people on here using a classical style in one way, shape or form and are happy with their results. I don't think it is helpful to think of classical education as being one thing only. If we all drew pictures of it, none of our pictures would be exactly the same. I think people who bad mouth classical ed mustn't have really understood what they were doing or why. You need to be doing what you do because that's what you think is best, and have reasons beyond "this book said I have to do this so I'd better do it even if I think it's dumb." There are people on here who aren't trying to give their kids a classical education, but they don't make silly blanket statements about how crappy it is. They say things like "it isn't the best way for us to achieve our goals," and "it doesn't suit my kid."

 

Then there is style of delivery. Some people seem to think classical ed requires bums on seats at the kitchen table and drill, drill, drill and the same content doesn't count if those bottoms are on the couch, or lying on the floor with a whiteboard. Or if content is done orally instead of written. Writing is a very important thing to learn, but there's a time and place, and the time isn't all day!

 

Rosie

[amydavis]

There are a heck of a lot of people on here using a classical style in one way, shape or form and are happy with their results. I don't think it is helpful to think of classical education as being one thing only. If we all drew pictures of it, none of our pictures would be exactly the same. I think people who bad mouth classical ed mustn't have really understood what they were doing or why. You need to be doing what you do because that's what you think is best, and have reasons beyond "this book said I have to do this so I'd better do it even if I think it's dumb." There are people on here who aren't trying to give their kids a classical education, but they don't make silly blanket statements about how crappy it is. They say things like "it isn't the best way for us to achieve our goals," and "it doesn't suit my kid."

 

Then there is style of delivery. Some people seem to think classical ed requires bums on seats at the kitchen table and drill, drill, drill and the same content doesn't count if those bottoms are on the couch, or lying on the floor with a whiteboard. Or if content is done orally instead of written. Writing is a very important thing to learn, but there's a time and place, and the time isn't all day!

 

Rosie

 

 

:iagree:

[LindaOz]

It's interesting because I can see how people could think that classical education could kill the love of learning. However, I'm one who has recently come back to it after deviating around to other things, and then seeing the value in what WTM is saying.

 

I pulled out my WTM and started reading it again and was totally inspired. This time, I am seeing more of the heart behind what the authors are saying and the methods used, rather seeing it as a list of 'things you must do'. For example, in one of the early chapters that Jessie Wise wrote, she talks about how she started hs'ing her children and how they would go to the library, bring home a variety of books, and read, read, read. No doubt they talked about the books, drew pictures, began writing captions etc. and went from there. To me, that sounds totally natural, interesting and fun. When we read the WTM now, we see lists of books to read, titles to chase, suggested curriculum etc. and think that is the way we must do things. Yet, really, I think they have put those lists etc there so that those of us who really need some guidance, or need to see examples of how things can be done, can have a clue. The lists are not a master to be a slave to. The structure is there so we have an idea of where to go, but the method is the most important - that the child reads, and learns, and builds their knowledge and skills step by step. I'm seeing that in my understanding of the methods behind what is given in the book, I'm actually free to use less curriculum because the method applies to other books, not necessarily pre-prepared curriculum.

 

Well, I don't know if I've expressed that very well (should study rhetoric, shouldn't I ;) ) but what I'm trying to say that there is so much scope in classical learning for enjoyment and interest. It's not all about making sure we finish every conceivable curriculum, but about moving towards the goal which is so aptly outlined in WTM. That's just the way I see it, anyway.

 

Talkin' to myself here ;)

[elise1mds]

Talkin' to myself here ;)

 

Not entirely! I hear you loud and clear. I love WTM. Right now, I am only HSing my DS, but my DD has gone back and forth about coming home, too. She's planning to go to kindergarten at a private school, but it was after kindergarten that I brought DS home, anyway, so we're taking it year by year. I *DO* know that if she comes home, I'll have to take classical ideas an entirely different direction for her or she WILL wind up losing her love of learning. DS absolutely adores structure. If I can tell him what subjects we do each day and he knows roughly how each subject is going to go, he's thrilled. We go down rabbit holes, sure, but only after completing the structured activities for the day. He loves finishing workbooks because he feels a huge sense of accomplishment. Anything that might take the place of a previously-planned activity has to be planned in advance - for example, for science next Tuesday I'm giving him a basic first aid course. DD, on the other hand, would have to be completely rabbit-hole oriented. We'd have to start with a piece of literature and go from there for grammar, spelling, writing, history, etc. Workbooks would be sheer drudgery for her. Math would have to be centered around manipulatives and games. Memorization would have to involve a lot of performances for other people. So I would still be following a classical model for her, but it would be taking an entirely different route.

 

Just my thoughts :)

[whitestavern]

I would consider both my dc to have a love of learning; not that they love doing all subjects all the time (!) but they are receptive to learning things, seem to enjoy what they learn, and will seek out learning opportunities in their free time. I'm not sure what to attribute that to though. We school mostly classical/CM. I think using living books for many subjects is much more interesting to a child. I think the curriculum I've chosen is interesting. However, I think homeschooling in general might be the reason they enjoy learning, more than the style in which we homeschool. They aren't being exposed to the herd mentality at ps (I hate school; school is boring; etc.) And I think a lot of the curriculum offered to homeschoolers is more interesting and engaging than the choices at schools. It'll be interesting to hear other opinions on this!

[texasmama]

I would say that much of it has to do with your perception of it and how you use a classical model.

 

If you make education work and a check list and never follow a rabbit trail or model the enjoyment of learning then, yes, it does have the potential to be less than fun and becomes work being done just to check the box.

 

If you love learning, will learn alongside your children, and be a bit flexible on a micro level there is no reason it has to suck the joy out of learning. For many children it enhances the joy and has the potential to create book worms.

 

Do keep in mind that most children don't enjoy all subjects or enjoy every subject every day. There is a difference between I'm bored with history today and classical education is boring.

 

These are pretty much my thoughts, as well. My boys love learning about most things, but they don't love everything. We chase rabbit trails and have lots of fun in addition to memorizing grammar, multiplication facts, etc.

 

I always wonder about someone who bashes a method (any method) so completely just because that person could not find a way to make it work for them. Everyone is different and it is good that there are so many methods out there. :)

[LND1218]

I think many people misunderstand what classical education is completely. In our family, it gives us such joy! We love learning. (It's not always fun.)

 

Personally, I am always shocked to hear that people hate it or their kids can't do it. I honestly have never met anyone who can't do it. I truly believe it's an approach anyone can use. (I have met people who don't want to. Which is fine. But the basic method can be modified and adapted to anyone.) I think if more people understood it they wouldn't hate it. It's incredible and lots of fun!

 

Sometimes people say "classical" when they mean rigorous. They aren't the same thing. They often go hand in hand. But you can have either alone.

 

Or when they mean chronological history which again isn't the definition of a classical education. Only my oldest gets it start to finish - rest well they just jump in where they are. These often go hand in hand but classical education is more than chronological history, and it doesn't require chronological history.

 

Classical education is so much more....

[NanceXToo]

I am NOT what you'd consider a "classical" homeschooler but I would say pretty much the same thing as the first person to respond said, that it would depend on the child.

 

I think if a parent wanted to go this route and the child was receptive to it and seemed to be doing well, great!

 

On the other hand, I've heard of issues where people were talking about how their kids were miserable and never wanted to do anything and the parents were stressed out and miserable too, and nobody was enjoying homeschooling, and in those cases I feel very bad for them all around and think to myself "it doesn't have to be that way!"

 

In that case (well, in my case anyway, but especially in that case) my main concern would be my child's mental/emotional health/happiness- AND mine. Rather than putting an emphasis on a rigorous schedule or a certain philosophy of very formal/structured schooling, I'd make the emphasis be on becoming more laid back and trying to make learning a fun, creative, hands on kind of experience, or one based on things my child had an interest in, etc. (I'm not saying most parents don't do that anyway of course! But I have heard of some who do just grit their teeth and push on no matter what and I think that WOULD kill a child's love for learning. And a parent's for teaching, I would think! Both would be very sad outcomes).

 

As for me, I'm currently using the Oak Meadow curriculum with my 9 y/o fourth grade daughter. I LOVE it. I'm using a "curriculum" so I'm not just winging things. But it's a curriculum that is geared toward a lot of hands-on, creative things and not all dry textbookish stuff. And I modify a bit here and there as desired, adding things or spending more time on things we really like (like my daughter loved the colonial times stuff so we did extra crafts and projects), etc. She's doing really well, I can see she's learning, she's not resistant to doing school, neither of us are spending our days stressed out, it's been great.

 

I do nothing formal at all with my 4 year old son. He'll start the Oak Meadow kindergarten curriculum next year (which is really more like a preschool curriculum I think, it definitely starts more slower paced than a traditional curriculum and is very story and nature and crafts and movement based). I like that about it. I don't personally agree with pushing academics on very young kids, I'd rather they just have time to be a kid and imagine and play and creative and shouldn't be made to sit at a desk doing worksheets or spending much time on school...

 

...UNLESS it is something they don't mind/enjoy doing. In that case, I think it's fine. But at that young age (3-5 years old for instance) I don't agree with pushing it on them if they're not interested.

 

I think you should just see how it goes for your kids. I think as long as you have an open mind and a willingness to adapt as needed and the ability to realize if/when that happens, rather than some stubborn determined kind of attitude that "it's going to be this way, because this is the only way that 'works,' like it or not!" you'll be fine whichever way you go :)

[Snickerdoodle]

I don't think schooling should be primarily about the "joy of learning". There is a more or less fixed set of things I want to teach my daughters that I consider to be an educational basis and which also includes the "classical" component, and that they will go through unless their cognitive abilities present an issue (so far so good). If they happen to whine - how to say this nicely? - it's their problem and they have to learn how to deal with things they'll have to do, but won't be as passionate about.

 

I don't think you can have a good, thorough education without a structure. <snip>It doesn't have to be "fun" or "boring" - but, as any other system, for some it might work 100% in that form, for some it might work with some degree of adaptations, and for some it just doesn't work.

 

 

I'm with EstherMaria.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Maybe it's not the style of teaching, maybe it's not the child, maybe it is the teacher. Please note the MAYBE. In my own home I tend to always consider whether it is something I'm doing or not doing before I say it doesn't suit the child or blame the curriculum or style of teaching. it would be easier ofcoarse to just bash the style or curriculum.

 

May get fussed at for this but not all of us homeschooling are cut out for it. I don't believe that's true for any of us here ofcoarse!:D

[Amber in AUS]

There are a heck of a lot of people on here using a classical style in one way, shape or form and are happy with their results. I don't think it is helpful to think of classical education as being one thing only. If we all drew pictures of it, none of our pictures would be exactly the same. I think people who bad mouth classical ed mustn't have really understood what they were doing or why. You need to be doing what you do because that's what you think is best, and have reasons beyond "this book said I have to do this so I'd better do it even if I think it's dumb." There are people on here who aren't trying to give their kids a classical education, but they don't make silly blanket statements about how crappy it is. They say things like "it isn't the best way for us to achieve our goals," and "it doesn't suit my kid."

 

Then there is style of delivery. Some people seem to think classical ed requires bums on seats at the kitchen table and drill, drill, drill and the same content doesn't count if those bottoms are on the couch, or lying on the floor with a whiteboard. Or if content is done orally instead of written. Writing is a very important thing to learn, but there's a time and place, and the time isn't all day!

 

Rosie

 

Well said :)

[EKS]

I don't believe in the joy of learning. Frankly, learning can be boring and it can be painful. I try to make it as interesting and painless as possible for my kids, but I'm not always successful. I find that as they learn more about a topic that it becomes easier and more interesting. But the idea of learning always being some sort of blissful experience is a total crock.

[FlockOfSillies]

So, is she saying that classical ed turned her inquisitive, curious kids into taciturn lumps who had nothing but disdain for anything resembling "school"? Or is it more likely that she piled on an unreasonable amount of work, or persisted in using curricula that made her kids cry, or some other caricature of classical education?

[SophiaH]

I just listened to an mp3 lecture today by Douglas Wilson, who was speaking to a group of Classical School educators. He said the main thing he always makes a point to say to classical educators is (paraphrase):

 

In Classical Education, we should never try to make our students conform to a standard, but to love the standard.

 

From that statement, I get that the day in day out learning may not always be *fun,* but overall, classical education should create a love of learning and ultimately create a respect for/always-striving-towards-being a "better" type of person.

[happyhomemaker25]

I have not read through the other responses but here is mine.

I think if you try to be a perfectionist and follow everything that classical educaton recommends without taking into account your family or specific child then you could rob your child of the joy of learning.

I tried my first year with a K and a 2nd grader.. they are just starting to forgive me. LOL

ETA: I love the style of classical education. I just had to learn to tailor it to my family.

[FO4UR]

People love what is familiar, and dislike the unkown.

 

If you try to implement a classical ed with a 6yo who has spent the vast majority of his childhood with Blue's Clues and Sponge Bob, he's going to balk at Beatrix Potter and AA Milne b/c he doesn't understand the language. It is unfamiliar.

 

If you take the same 6yo...but instead spend his early childhood years reading and letting him play, Peter Rabbit becomes a new friend. He names his stuffed bunny "Peter" and reinacts the scene with Mr McGregor in his play. This leaves his teacher with a VERY short step into reading and narrating and copying the language that the child LOVES b/c he KNOWS.

 

The skill work is not supposed to be fun all the time. :iagree: However, because I believe that people like what they know, I will make sure my dc know the skills they need to succeed at the next level. My dc don't always enjoy brushing their teeth, but we do it anyway...

[rafgaf4]

It depends if you are asking about the WTM specifically or not. WTM is what is considered neo-classical not the traditional classical education. This was not for us. IMO if you followed every suggestion in the book, the joy of learning would be drained from you and your child eventually. My children learn math, latin, classical studies, christian studies and the arts. I also include floating subjects that are done one time each week. This model works very well for us. My kids and I are learning so much and are having a great time. We started our homeschooling journey using an eccletic style, but it just seemed that every subject was detached and separate. My husband and I both decided to explore other styles. The classical education intrigued us. We purchased a copy of the WTM and the Latin Centered Curriculum, as well as researched a lot of classical websites. We decided to follow the Latin Centered Curriculum. It works well for us. My children complete their studies each day and we still have time to go to the park, play board games, or just chill out. This has been the least stressful year yet.

[Guest]

There are a lot of different things that define classical education and a lot of different ways to go about it, as others have said. Where I first parted ways with the TWTM model was in letting my daughter have so much control over what we did. TWTM is parent-directed, parent-selected (with of course the caveat that what materials you choose should suit your child's learning style). From the very beginning my daughter, however, took an idea and ran with it, sometimes off course, sometimes extending it, sometimes changing what we did entirely because she was so interested in something else. Learning quickly became something we did together. I don't mean I sat at the table with her to help her do, or guided her to do, or taught her something; but we both explored and discovered together, interactively. I'd have to say that at least 50% of our "work" was initiated and planned by her, from a game she called Letter Send (in which characters in one book wrote to characters in another via paper airplane mail) to math games to science projects. When she had passionate interests we centered our learning around those. Note I say OUR learning; one thing that has been fascinating for me is that I am getting as much of an education as my daughter (and I already had a PhD). I don't think I always know best, I think she has as much to teach me about the education process as I have to teach her, and she has repeatedly shown me that she knows how to make her education relevant, engaging, and rigorous for herself -- IF I give her the space to do that. For me, adhering more closely to the classical model would kill off that imaginative, creative, self-motivated part of my daughter's learning.

 

This doesn't mean we unschool, that we have no schedule, or that everything we do is child-directed or pursued only if if it provides immediate pleasure. It does not mean I dislike all aspects of the classical model or that I do not find it inspiring and useful as a guide even as I vary (often dramatically) from it.

 

But my daughter's education has been a collaborative, imaginative, creative process from the beginning, one in which she has had as much a say in what and how she learns, what materials she chooses and how she responds, as I do. If she had not had dysgraphia, or had gravitated more naturally toward textbooks and workbooks, or had not overflowed with so many ideas and that excited her so greatly, no doubt my model of education would look very different. Because of her dysgraphia and her creative pleasure in all things academic, I've taken great pains to preserve that pleasure, which has for us meant departing from the classical model in a number of ways because yes, having to conform in large part to that way of working would indeed kill my daughter's joy.

 

I think there are kids and families for whom the whole package of classical education is a wonderful fit. Kids who like to learn through listening, reading, and writing seem to do particularly well with it, as do kids whose minds tend toward categorizing and classifying, separating, and parts-to-whole learning. Kinesthetic or visual-spatial learners, kids whose passions are for science or art, or whose major interests lie entirely outside the academic subject areas of classical learning, may do less well. They may indeed find themselves cut off from being able to unite work, rigor, and satisfaction, much less creative pleasure, under a model which heavily emphasizes reading and writing in a parts-to-whole order. The great gift of these boards is that all kinds of learners and families find inspiration and support. People like myself may depart from the classical model, but interest in its goals and methods probably brought them here in the first place, and that doesn't go away even when their child's unique needs lead them to move away from some, or even most, of it.

[shehmeth]

We would consider ourselves as Classical Homeschooler.

Someone mentioned about Philosophy Vs. Lists - and someone else talked about the resources used.

 

I read the recommendation for the grade we are in or we'll be next year on the WTM - focusing on the content rather than the actual items. Then I look at the recommended books/programs and see if they are a fit with me or my child. If something resonates with me or for my kids, good - if not, then i find a program that has that content but in a format that suits us best.

 

I have a few books/programs that are in the resources list in the WTM, and I also have books /programs that are not. This is ok.

 

Joy Vs. Fun

sometimes we think that if is joy is a synonym of fun.. this not the case... I love reading myself, is something that is pleasurable and gives me great joy.. however, dare I to admit it, I get tire of reading at times. Playing the violin is another activity that gives me great joy - but it requires practice (daily - working on repertoire, new songs, reviewing old songs, doing technique) and at times after a lot of playing, I get tire... the actual practice - learning a new song, drilling a new skill - that actual things are not necessarily fun - but the Joy of playing the song after all that hard work, and to know that is the result of your own hard work and expertise makes it all worth it.

 

 

To me Classical education is a Philosophy for education.... the WTM is a guide, to serve as a starting point.. is not meant as the ONLY map to get you there - nor those are the only resources to use.

 

I think that the parent's & child's teaching/learning style comes into play.

 

At home, my children have a joy for learning - one example - in Science she approached me and said if we could do something about Dinosaurs - she said she knew already quite a lot but wanted to know more - so I put my plans aside (Plants) for the next week and I declared we would have a Dinosaur Week instead... One week - in Science - all Dinosaurs and nothing else (well "Ice Age too - Mom, You can't forget the Sabertooth!!!" - so we did a very brief overview on the Ice age)... We drafted a list of 6 Dinosaurs she wishes to know more (she's 6, so 6 was the limit) and this was just a guideline, once we read more about them we would decided if we wanted to write something about them. She read a few books on Dinosaurs or about Dinosaurs (fiction and not fiction), we watch the Dinosaur Train (PBS TV show); one of the books she read was Usborne first Encyclopedia about Dinosaurs, the others were the Magic Tree House Book #1 about the Dinosaurs, and the one about Saber tooth (can't remember the number), and we read the corresponding research guides for both books. Then I would asked her questions, from the readings in the MTH Research Guides, and write her responses... so we have a few pages: a "report" in form of Q&A as record of her learning. Out of the 6 dinosaurs picked above 4 made it to the report and two extra ones she found to be more interesting that the ones she picked at first; but again, she's 6, so here limit is 6. Then on the last day, she said if we could do an Art Project to close the week - so she drew a picture and wrote all on her own a mini-story (few sentences about the picture).... Now to me this is Joy of Learning... but there is work involved (something people forget): She had a thirst to know more about a subject and dived into it to learn more. I provided her with appropriate resources and assistance for her journey, and to record her journey, and gave her a limit (a week) to leave her with the desire to learn more about it - because wow there's still so much more.

 

I could a) have said: "Nope, sorry, we're doing plants this week"; b)have said: "sure read all you want during independent reading" and leave it at that... c) have even taken it and spent months and months of learning all there is to know about Dinosaurs, or d) have turned it into a topic that was covered, linked, and tied in to the other subjects. I did not: 1) All of those are great ideas, but they do not fit my teaching style, and 2) I think that the parent/teacher is there to give the boundaries, within those boundaries you let the child flourish, we can chase a rabbit trail or two, but never loose sight of the goal... and eventually we'll come back to the path.

 

Kate

[Paisley Hedgehog]

..

[IsabelC]

I think that any method has the potential to turn out badly if you are going to work on the assumption that SWB (or whoever's work you're reading) is God, and therefore knows everything about you, your child and your family situation. I take TWTM (and other books) as a set of suggestions offered by people who have some relevant knowledge and experience, not 101 commandments to be followed to the letter. I consider it all, I try out what I think might work, and I modify or discard the bits that prove to be unhelpful to us after a reasonable trial. Approached in this way, I don't see how the joy of learning can be 'killed'.

[Faithr]

I agree with the distinction between joy and fun. I think the joy of learning is vital! This is what keeps us human! Always seeking further knowledge and wisdom. It is such a deeply, soul-satisfying pursuit. Joy of learning makes us want to enlarge our horizons and ennoble our souls! It is very true that not all learning can be fun. There are times when it is painful drudgery. But I think these times are far fewer than many believe. I think often parents hide behind the 'learning doesn't have to be fun' because they themselves don't want to make an effort to actually teach or present knowledge in a delightful form. It seems much easier to just shove a workbook at a child and tell them to be quiet and go off and work independently. Then the parent can check off on their list. Of course. later they are often dealing with discipline issues when the child becomes rebellious OR they realize that the child has retained zip from a year of 'learning' (but of course it wasn't really learning, it was just going through the motions.)

 

The thing about fun though, is it is a teacher's best friend! If you make things fun, students are much, much more receptive. You can be structured and be fun too. And like Rosie said, you can be studying but be relaxed because you're cuddled up on the couch instead of working at a desk or table. Fun, in my mind, means making something engaging, satisfying, or delightful. It doesn't have to be lots of bells and whistles. Fun is different for different children too. I had one son who wasn't very hands on and it even tended to distract him from retention. He could listen to read alouds for forever though and repeat back everything word for word. To him that was enjoyable. For two of my other kids, unless they had something to hook what they are hearing on to, either in a hands on way, or in a visual way (watching it on a video or a demonstration) their retention just wasn't going to be at a high level. So they looked forward to hands on stuff. When I'd try to force the non-hands on son to do hands on stuff, it was self-defeating. The funny thing is, this was the way he did things until 9th grade when he took Biology and then suddenly he loved doing the labs! This was with another teacher, so maybe it was just my style or somehow he responded better to the other teacher's style. I don't know. Anyway, I'm digressing.

 

My other point is that I think there is often overkill with subjects. This is why I think LCC appeals to me. For instance, if you are really learning Latin, why do you need to do English grammar every year? Initially when I first started to try to learn/teach Latin it would get pushed to the wayside because we were already burned out from trying to do our grammar. So we moved so slowly that Latin became boring and frustrating. But once I released myself from having to do grammar and instead focused just on Latin, we got much more immersed in it and we learned tons of grammar to boot! Now I just focus on English grammar every two or three years. And I try to do it in a fun and relaxed way. Also copy work and penmanship or copy work and spelling. Actually copy work is so efficient it teaches, penmanship, spelling, grammar, writing, vocabulary and literature! This is why I love WWE. A little bit goes a very long way.

 

And in response to Shari above, we did both! We read The Odyssey and The Mouse and the Motorcycle. If you do a little bit of The Odyssey and a lot of The Mouse and the Motorcycle, the kids are happy and you are happy because you know they are being exposed to a foundational work of Western Civ. It is all about finding your groove and not letting yourself be tyrannized by somebody else's idea of pacing.

[IsabelC]

(btw, clearly my kids are weird, because they loved the Odyssey and kept requesting it, until I got sick of it.)

[Carrie12345]

I definitely do modify "classical education" a bit to fit my kids, but it truly has been a wonderful thing in our house.

 

My oldest was in ps from k-4 and a public cyber for 5th, so I really worried about his... conversion, lol. He loves it (most days). He's flourishing. And so are the rest of my kids. They absolutely do have a joy for learning, despite my allowance of video games and junk tv. ;)

[Mama Lynx]

I wholeheartedly agree with your definition of "joy" here.

 

We are fairly hardcore classical, more in the LCC manner than the WTM manner. I direct my children's learning. I require them to learn a certain body of knowledge. We drill. We memorize. We work. And within that framework I incorporate their interests and preferences and abilities and rabbit trails to the best of my ability.

 

And they certainly have retained a fire for learning and an interest in many, many things. They do, yes, have joy in learning.

 

I'd say that your friend did not understand classical education and did not have a grasp of her own educational philosophy. My guess is that she tried someone's version of a classical method close to verbatim, without truly claiming the philosophy as her own, first. There is no method of education that will work well, with work and with joy, if you do not understand it and believe in it.

 

As humans, our tendency is to mock and denigrate that which doesn't work for us. The fault is not at all in the classical method.

[angela in ohio]

If it killed the 'joy of learning' in her dc, she was doing it wrong.

 

Mine are 14, 12, and almost 8. Of the dozens and dozens of homeschool families I know, we are almost the most academic family (I know two who are more) and one of the few actual classical families. Despite dire warnings from my relaxed and unschooling friends in the early years, my dc are among the very, very few homeschool kiddos I know who love to learn. They CRAVE it! And I credit the fact that we have classically homeschooled all along. Ironically, most of the naysayers' dc are now in public schools, because they "couldn't get them to do anything at home anymore." Meanwhile my dc read the Iliad at 11 for fun. :001_smile:

 

I have written much on how to homeschool classically and instill a love of learning. Some is at my blog, linked below.

[Gratia271]

As humans, our tendency is to mock and denigrate that which doesn't work for us. The fault is not at all in the classical method.

 

:iagree: Well said!

[elegantlion]

I agree with the distinction between joy and fun. I think the joy of learning is vital!

 

The thing about fun though, is it is a teacher's best friend! If you make things fun, students are much, much more receptive. You can be structured and be fun too. And like Rosie said, you can be studying but be relaxed because you're cuddled up on the couch instead of working at a desk or table. Fun, in my mind, means making something engaging, satisfying, or delightful.

 

My other point is that I think there is often overkill with subjects. This is why I think LCC appeals to me.

 

 

:iagree::iagree: To OP's friends I could easily say that using (insert popular curriculum name here) killed my ds' love of learning. Do I go around bashing "X" curriculum? No, it simply didn't work for us, but I know many people who use it that are quite happy with its approach.

 

Classical, particularly LCC, restored our joy. The multum non multa approach made our first year of classical homeschooling, two years ago, the best so far.

 

Will it work that way for everyone? Probably not. Classical education has forced (maybe too strong a word choice, but I'm on my first cup of coffee) me to explore the philosophy of educating the whole child from now until graduation. Since I didn't receive anything close to a classical education I needed to know why we were doing something, what the long term application would be. I've found joy in that process, which makes teaching classical more enjoyable.

[Mommyfaithe]

(btw, clearly my kids are weird, because they loved the Odyssey and kept requesting it, until I got sick of it.)

 

:iagree: MIne are weird too...and love the odyssey...and Beowulf read in the dark...lol....They have been read to since birth and the group I have still at home had to listen in (as they napped or nursed) to older siblings read alouds...thus, they are so familiar with them, it is like a comfortable old story book. Gotta love it...

Faithe

[laughing lioness]

I wholeheartedly agree with your definition of "joy" here.

 

We are fairly hardcore classical, more in the LCC manner than the WTM manner. I direct my children's learning. I require them to learn a certain body of knowledge. We drill. We memorize. We work. And within that framework I incorporate their interests and preferences and abilities and rabbit trails to the best of my ability.

 

And they certainly have retained a fire for learning and an interest in many, many things. They do, yes, have joy in learning.

 

I'd say that your friend did not understand classical education and did not have a grasp of her own educational philosophy. My guess is that she tried someone's version of a classical method close to verbatim, without truly claiming the philosophy as her own, first. There is no method of education that will work well, with work and with joy, if you do not understand it and believe in it.

 

As humans, our tendency is to mock and denigrate that which doesn't work for us. The fault is not at all in the classical method.

:iagree:Very well said, MamaLynx. We are told frequently that we are "hard core" but I laugh at that. We are merely intentional. Seriously. Now, if my dh was in charge of our little homeschool, we would, for sure, be hard core!;) My kids love to learn. They too, crave it. We drill, memorize, read, study, write. We also do field trips, life skills, service, units (check my blog, our life has been a unit of late!). We talk, talk, talk around here, laugh loudly, make puns, perfect quotes. We've developed a philosophy of life, of which classical ed plays a very important part..

[jld]

Honestly, I think it would have killed my love of learning. At least I think it would have if it had been forced on me before I was ready for it. Frankly, every time I read something by really strict parents here, I cringe. I know that's probably not acceptable to say, but I honestly feel that way. My mom was hardly involved in my education at all, but I would take that any day over a controller.

 

Running away now -- really fast!!!!:auto:

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I tend to think that anyone who *is* doing classical is going to tell you it's good (or they wouldn't be doing it). It works for us. I'm not sure what sorts of things might make it not work, but then every family dynamic is different. I'd have to know specifics of that family and how they operate in order to perhaps start to say that I can see where they went off course, etc.

 

I mean, some people hate to read and they don't think reading is important so their children don't read, either. I can't see a family like that doing classical.

 

Some people just want to buy workbooks and hand them to their children to complete on their own and when they're done - that's school for the day. The adults don't really do any teaching.

 

But some people create a very complete learning lifestyle where their children are immersed in learning all day long, every day, as they grow up. These sorts of very thorough and successful "unschoolers" probably would hardly ever fit anything resembling a "classical" mold, but they're doing essentially the same sorts of things in many ways. I haven't heard of many such families, by the way, because this is such a time intensive / life intensive project.

 

Because I never thought that I had the resources to be successful in the above approach, classical was the next best, most thorough, approach to homeschooling that I could imagine. In fact, it's what I was doing on my own before I even ever heard of "classical education". So, it just makes sense to me. Now I can't say that I incorporate every element of it. I would not expect any family to do this. You incorporate what works for your individual children to serve their needs now and into the future.

 

I think that the joy of learning is evident when children understand the importance of what they're doing. Making them do rote exercises with no rhyme or reason as to why this is important, no connection being drawn between different areas of study, no connections between work from last year and this year, etc., etc. might certainly make them think their work is pointless. Public schools do a great job at this. We were just talking AGAIN, this morning, about how schools are ruining the idea of public service work. They require it, then allow kids to cheat and get things signed off when they really didn't do the work (or the amount signed off); the work is meaningless because they don't really do anything that matters and no one even attempts to explain what needs to be done or why it's important; and I could just go on and ON - so I'll stop.....

 

School is what you make of it, no matter what "approach" you say you're using. If you understand why it's important to do the work you're doing each day and you relay that info regularly to your children, comment on it when you see it overlapping into things they do during non-school time, etc. then I think they understand that they are doing meaningful work that will make a difference in their lives. I think that's important for everyone, at all times, no matter what they're doing.... Meaninglessness is completely frustrating to me, I know. I think boys, who are especially results oriented, find it completely stifling.....

[Guest]

Honestly, I think it would have killed my love of learning. At least I think it would have if it had been forced on me before I was ready for it. Frankly, every time I read something by really strict parents here, I cringe. I know that's probably not acceptable to say, but I honestly feel that way. My mom was hardly involved in my education at all, but I would take that any day over a controller.

 

Running away now -- really fast!!!!:auto:

 

Your comment is just as valid as anyone else's. You know, I went back and re-read the recent thread on how the OP moved away from following classical education too closely, and there is no "bashing" that I can see. No one is telling everyone else to jump off the classical ship. They're just saying that following the program closely is not working at the moment for their young children and for them as teacher/parents.

 

Yes, some people might try to follow classical education's suggestions very closely and find it overwhelming or troubling. They might also find it isn't working for their kids even when they become more flexible or try different curricula that still fit within the classical box. I don't think that means they are therefore doing it "wrong" or misunderstanding what it's all about. It doesn't mean they don't value reading, or have somehow missed the path, or that they don't still value highly many of the elements of TWTM program. I think it means that truly, this model is not a great fit for every single student or every single family over the whole course of an education. Neither the model nor the people who find it does not work for their children are bad or wrong.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Guest

[Annie Laurie]

How are you defining classical? Are you following a list or a philosophy?

 

When I read this forum (the k-8), it often feels like that the entire education of the child is attempted to be swallowed in one swoop instead of taking one small step at a time. There is no need for the education of a classically educated child to be more than an hr/day/grade level. It is the over-emphasis on obtaining knowledge which leads to long lists of materials and ultimate burn-out and drudgery.

 

I agree with this. I feel that we get very solid work in each day and am pleased with my children's progress. But it takes us 3 hours a day on most days, and my kids are 2nd and 3rd graders, so I feel it's appropriate. Classical ed is a philosophy, it is not a rigid list of what to do. I myself have found Classical Ed to be freeing, we get a lot done in a short space of time. I look at Classical as a philosophy of an emphasis on language and the written word.

 

You might like the audio lecture on the PHP website called "The Joy of Classical Education", I think it simplifies things.

[maryanne]

Well, it hasn't killed the joy of learning in our house. I consider us to be eclectic neo-classical homeschoolers because I have read and used ideas from several different sources of information on classical education. I apply to Trivium to whatever we are studying. Since I have grammar age students our emphasis is on facts, vocabulary, exposure and memorization. Thinking skills and communication skills are introduced and explored in child friendly/ child-led ways, but are of secondary importance to grammar stage skills.

 

My children love listening to a good story and learning new facts. Their favorite words are "Did you know that ..." followed by some interesting (to them) tidbit of information they picked up somewhere. Sometimes the tidbits are facts from serious academic subjects studied in school. Other times the tidbits come from Sponge Bob and other similarly reliable sources. My point is that they love learning factual information and are building that base of knowledge that they will use later. Classical education the way it is implemented in my house seems to be well-suited to my children.

 

I think any philosophy of education implemented strictly without taking into consideration differences in individual families and children will probably kill the joy of learning. I also agree with those that have differentiated joy from fun. I don't want to kill the joy of learning in my children, but I also don't think that every subject needs to be fun all of the time. Sometimes learning is work, like struggling through phonics and phonetic readers, but the pay off, such as reading great chapter books, is rewarding so that the work becomes worthwhile.

[Tam101]

JMO :)

 

Classical Education (to my understanding) is a means to an end. The end result is to be a student who possesses a certain set of skills (including thinking skills). To reach that end, children are taught a progression of skills beginning in K. Memorization of facts in the early years is done not for real understanding, but to create "pegs" so that when a child is older they will have that foundation of "knowledge" to refer back to. Classical/WTM is sometimes referred to as a "filling the tank" type of method in the early years. Kids aren't expected to really make their own connections until later.

 

I'm of this opinion too. My son does well with memorization, loves it would be a better description. He has a fascination with US presidents and every morning can be found on the couch reading from a number books on presidents he owns or has borrowed from the library. He has memorized many facts, can recite their names in order and his latest trick is asking us for a number and he tell us which President that is. He has done this all on his own away from our studies. So, no it hasn't killed his joy of learning. For him it has inspired it!

[Jen+4dc]

I read the recommendation for the grade we are in or we'll be next year on the WTM - focusing on the content rather than the actual items. Then I look at the recommended books/programs and see if they are a fit with me or my child. If something resonates with me or for my kids, good - if not, then i find a program that has that content but in a format that suits us best.

 

I have a few books/programs that are in the resources list in the WTM, and I also have books /programs that are not. This is ok.

 

Joy Vs. Fun

sometimes we think that if is joy is a synonym of fun.. this not the case... I love reading myself, is something that is pleasurable and gives me great joy.. however, dare I to admit it, I get tire of reading at times. Playing the violin is another activity that gives me great joy - but it requires practice (daily - working on repertoire, new songs, reviewing old songs, doing technique) and at times after a lot of playing, I get tire... the actual practice - learning a new song, drilling a new skill - that actual things are not necessarily fun - but the Joy of playing the song after all that hard work, and to know that is the result of your own hard work and expertise makes it all worth it.

 

 

To me Classical education is a Philosophy for education.... the WTM is a guide, to serve as a starting point.. is not meant as the ONLY map to get you there - nor those are the only resources to use.

 

I think that the parent's & child's teaching/learning style comes into play.

 

At home, my children have a joy for learning - one example - in Science she approached me and said if we could do something about Dinosaurs - she said she knew already quite a lot but wanted to know more - so I put my plans aside (Plants) for the next week and I declared we would have a Dinosaur Week instead... One week - in Science - all Dinosaurs and nothing else (well "Ice Age too - Mom, You can't forget the Sabertooth!!!" - so we did a very brief overview on the Ice age)... We drafted a list of 6 Dinosaurs she wishes to know more (she's 6, so 6 was the limit) and this was just a guideline, once we read more about them we would decided if we wanted to write something about them. <snip>

Then on the last day, she said if we could do an Art Project to close the week - so she drew a picture and wrote all on her own a mini-story (few sentences about the picture).... Now to me this is Joy of Learning... but there is work involved (something people forget): She had a thirst to know more about a subject and dived into it to learn more. I provided her with appropriate resources and assistance for her journey, and to record her journey, and gave her a limit (a week) to leave her with the desire to learn more about it - because wow there's still so much more.

 

I could a) have said: "Nope, sorry, we're doing plants this week"; b)have said: "sure read all you want during independent reading" and leave it at that... c) have even taken it and spent months and months of learning all there is to know about Dinosaurs, or d) have turned it into a topic that was covered, linked, and tied in to the other subjects. I did not: 1) All of those are great ideas, but they do not fit my teaching style, and 2) I think that the parent/teacher is there to give the boundaries, within those boundaries you let the child flourish, we can chase a rabbit trail or two, but never loose sight of the goal... and eventually we'll come back to the path.

 

Kate

 

Love it, love it, love it!!!!:iagree:

 

I think that any method has the potential to turn out badly if you are going to work on the assumption that SWB (or whoever's work you're reading) is God, and therefore knows everything about you, your child and your family situation. I take TWTM (and other books) as a set of suggestions offered by people who have some relevant knowledge and experience, not 101 commandments to be followed to the letter. I consider it all, I try out what I think might work, and I modify or discard the bits that prove to be unhelpful to us after a reasonable trial. Approached in this way, I don't see how the joy of learning can be 'killed'.

:iagree:

 

I think that the joy of learning is evident when children understand the importance of what they're doing. Making them do rote exercises with no rhyme or reason as to why this is important, no connection being drawn between different areas of study, no connections between work from last year and this year, etc., etc. might certainly make them think their work is pointless. Public schools do a great job at this.

 

School is what you make of it, no matter what "approach" you say you're using. If you understand why it's important to do the work you're doing each day and you relay that info regularly to your children, comment on it when you see it overlapping into things they do during non-school time, etc. then I think they understand that they are doing meaningful work that will make a difference in their lives. I think that's important for everyone, at all times, no matter what they're doing.... Meaninglessness is completely frustrating to me, I know. I think boys, who are especially results oriented, find it completely stifling.....

:iagree::iagree:

 

I can't say it any better than they did.

[laughing lioness]

. Frankly, every time I read something by really strict parents here, I cringe. I know that's probably not acceptable to say, but I honestly feel that way. My mom was hardly involved in my education at all, but I would take that any day over a controller.

 

I see a clear distinction between being a directive parent and controlling. I grew up with 2 Type A, first born, Ph.D.'s - They were controlling and demanding . Not very involved in my education at all, but with clear expectations about performance. While it was expected that I perform to a high standard I was not given the tools to do so; which is one of my goals in homeschooling. If I had had some of the tools I've developed as a "strict" homeschooler I know that I would have made some very different choices about my own academic and vocational career. I am very directive, but my kids have a voice and are very respected, justice is a prime concern in our home and fairness issues are dealt with seriously. We are also very strict, based on morals and principals, but have very few rules in our house. I don't believe that strictness or standards creates a horrible family culture, but rather the inverse.

[HollyDay]

It can kill the joy of learning. So can "traditional" worktext (think Abeka), or CM, or any other approach that is not tailored to the needs of the family. We have greatly modified classical and lean more toward an eclectic combination of classical and CM with some worktexts thrown in. It works.

 

My gf who has always thought classical was "seriously outdated" enrolled her dc in Classical Conversations this year and is very satisfied.

 

Another who was a firm believer in the method as stated in WTM burned out this year. The constant round of art classes, music classes, ballet, latin, greek, ancient literature, plus the "standard things" like math, housework, laundry, grocery shopping, and a large family just overwhelmed her.

 

Like any method, adapt it to the best use of the child and the family. It is a process, not a solution.

[Mama Lynx]

Honestly, I think it would have killed my love of learning. At least I think it would have if it had been forced on me before I was ready for it. Frankly, every time I read something by really strict parents here, I cringe. I know that's probably not acceptable to say, but I honestly feel that way. My mom was hardly involved in my education at all, but I would take that any day over a controller.

 

Running away now -- really fast!!!!:auto:

 

LOL

 

I think perhaps you may misinterpret more than you realize.

 

Here is a picture of our "hard core" day:

 

In the mornings, my older children (6th and 8th) begin their work independently, around 10 am. They do their history reading, literature reading, Latin, Greek, math, all on their own - they have their assignments. They get their Latin and Greek assignments at co-op from their teachers. They have their other assignments from me. My oldest would happily spend all day reading history, and my 6th grader would happily spend all day working on his computer programming lessons or Life of Fred, so I do sometimes have to remind them that there are other subjects.

 

Around 10:30 or so I start working with my 2nd and 3rd graders. We do math, grammar, spelling ... sometimes writing. It takes about an hour, total.

 

After that, all the kids usually break for lunch, chores, and play.

 

Whenever they're at a point where they need me too, I sit down with my older kids and we do their Classical Writing lesson. Or, I go over their writing. Or, we talk about what they're reading in history or literature.

 

After lunch I may read history or lit. with my youngers, or classical studies, or we may do art. As for classical studies - we do it, every year. For my youngers, it's reading Greek myths. My 6th grader is reading Norse myths this year, and will tackle the Iliad the next. My 8th grader is reading the Odyssey.

 

We have an all-afternoon D&D playdate every Monday, and co-op all day on Friday. The boys play soccer, and all are in Scouts.

 

I do consider us to be hard-core, because we do place such importance on Latin and Greek and classics, and we do them very seriously. But really, can you look at the outline of our day, and get the impression that the kids are being at all bored, or repressed, or in some kind of strict, over-controlled uber-school? :D

 

Sometimes our expectations can color things past the point of reality.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that it depends on the child. I think that the classical method has a lot of people reading a spine and extra books and a notebooking page and a project every time a subject is studied. My daughter can't stand doing all of that and that does kill her love of learning. I have had to learn that even though I can plan all of that, she doesn't have to do it all.