s/o opinion on education, work, gender and lifespan focus.........

[Joanne]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Clearly it emerges from my life experience. It's a radical departure from what I used to believe and also what I have posted on message boards many years ago.

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Joanne

[angela in ohio]

I can honestly say I never thought I would see the SAHM/working mothers war hit these boards. :confused:

 

Joanne, I am glad you are happy with the choices you have made. :001_smile:

[RoughCollie]

I think you've made a lot of good points, Joanne.

[TravelingChris]

At this point in my life and with my chronic illnesses, I am happy I can do what I do. For me that includes homeschooling my children, teaching a class at co-op, coaching a academic team, being a judge at debate tournaments, and volunteering as a family to make coffee and provide refreshments including set-up and clean-up once a quarter at church. I can't do more. Even what I am doing is very trying on me because when I get a minor illness like the cold I got this weekend, it affects my health greatly.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I totally agree with you, Joanne. I think that focus away from solely mothering is starting to happen for me now that dd is 8. But - I only have two children. I think for some of these very large families, the family is going to be the focus for much, much longer because they have young children in the household for much, much longer.

 

Oh - and I don't see how any of this has any bearing on SAHM vs. working moms. I do not plan to work outside the home but my focus is broadening none-the-less to hobbies, ministries and volunteering. My focus is also quite a bit on learning and hopefully treating my own chronic illness.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[angela in ohio]

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

More thoughts... What's funny is that I think the biggest market for these types of things is working parents. None of the single-income families I know can afford all that, nor do they usually partake.

 

I think most SAHM's lives bring them into opportunities for service (if that is to be the alternative for contributing to the world by having a paying job, no matter what the job may be.) I don't work outside the home, so I am the one taking cancer patients meals, caring for other's children, volunteering with the elderly, etc. It's not an outside job; it's part of being a wife, mother, and homemaker in my community.

 

Do I know families who idolize their family and make their home a fortress? A few. I also know a few families whose dc aren't given the attention they need because both parents work. Extremes at either end can be harmful.

[Nakia]

While I believe you have some made several really good points and expressed yourself most eloquently, as usual, we must be careful about projecting our thoughts and beliefs on others.

 

I agree that our culture has become too child-centered. I don't necessarily think that has anything to do with being family-focused. To me, they are very different things.

 

I believe God calls each person to something different. For me, I am first a wife and mother. But I have also been called to be a nurse and a photographer. I am blessed to be able to do all these things and keep it balanced. We each have our own path.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I believe a homeschooling mother of many is serving the world by responsibly raising and teaching her own.

 

I believe that she can serve alongside her children sometimes, in caring for the elderly, visiting nursing homes, teaching Sunday school classes that her children are in, and more.

 

But if she can't do that stuff...if all she can do is get up, clean her house, love her husband, and teach her children to be independent workers and givers instead of a drain on society, then may God bless her and the world thank her for her life's work.

[Joanne]

At this point in my life and with my chronic illnesses, I am happy I can do what I do. For me that includes homeschooling my children, teaching a class at co-op, coaching a academic team, being a judge at debate tournaments, and volunteering as a family to make coffee and provide refreshments including set-up and clean-up once a quarter at church. I can't do more. Even what I am doing is very trying on me because when I get a minor illness like the cold I got this weekend, it affects my health greatly.

 

Holy cow. That would be a challenge to anyone, even someone with a healthy body!

[MIch elle]

The active years of mothering is only one season of my life esp. since I have only 2 dc. I also NEVER thought I would be a SAHM but after my mother died in 1995 it changed my life. I took my 2yob out of daycare and became the dreaded SAHM which I've been for almost 14 yrs.

 

My oldest sister's friends (she's 12.5 yrs older than me) berated me for putting my dc in daycare and working fulltime; then they called me crazy for homeschooling my dc. I couldn't win!

 

I'm looking forward to going back to outside work in a couple of years. In the meantime, I'm active in my church and busy educating myself along with my sons.

[Danestress]

in the last couple of years of my father's life, I often struggled with whether my commits homeschooling my children was impacting him negatively. I was not a full time caregiver to him, that was my mother, but I did feel really overwhelmed with guilt a lot. If I was taking a kid to play tennis, I felt badly that I was choosing that over time with my father. If I went to visit with my father instead of taking that child somewhere, I felt guilty about that. If I missed a day visiting my father, I felt like I let him and my mother down. I spent a lot of time trying to balance my commitment to provide my father with all the care that I could, my desire to homeschool my children and spend recreational time with them too, and my belief that my husband should the more of the "center" of my life. I also felt a constant pressure from church to participate in ministry and volunteer, and some of that pressure came from within me.

 

The ONLY thing I didn't feel guilty about was not making money. My husband can support our family and I am very grateful for that, because I know that not every woman has that luxury. There was zero part of me that wished I had the added pressure to support my family, and I can't see why making more money would really benefit anyone. Obviously we have life insurance and disability insurance on him, though we would still have to make adjustments if anything bad happened to him.

 

I guess my children are a focus of my life. My babies are 12, so my years at home with them are going to end sometime. But there is zero, and I mean absolute rock bottom zero, part of me that regrets the time I have spent with them and the focus I have placed on them. We don't have a dysfunctional "you are the center of the universe and I have no life apart from you" kind of parent-child relationship. But they are certainly my focus - along with DH. I do volunteer some and I think that will increase as I move into the next "stage of life." But I am very very grateful that I was able to make them my primary focus for all these years and I don't think it has hurt them. I think they are emotionally healthy and nurtured, though I am sure they will have their complaints someday:)

[Joanne]

Just to clarify, I am not (and my post does not say) that I am anti SAHM. I was one, would make the same choice and will still encourage others to do the same.

 

I just don't think mothering and homemaking (and homeschooling) should be the exclusive activity of an adult woman.

[Rosy]

Joanne, I would have vehemently disagreed with you 5 years ago from a Biblical perspective. But I have come to believe (and feel that the Bible supports) that there is a difference between family as my primary ministry and family as my only ministry. While there are seasons where I feel that it is almost impossible for a woman to see to her family's needs and do anything else (particularly if she has a lot of little ones), I think it is healthy for the mom to find balance and have an identity beyond what her family can give her. I also think it is healthy for the kids to see a mom who is capable of working, whether or not she currently is. My kids are interested in my outside-the-home pursuits, and I think it helps them know me as a human being, not just their mom.

[Caribbean Queen]

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

 

I disagree with this. Homemaking/parenting/homeschooling fullfills me. I work hard at it and I am proud of what I do. I don't need to do "more."

[TravelingChris]

Joanne said:

I just don't think mothering and homemaking (and homeschooling) should be the exclusive activity of an adult woman.

 

:iagree: that outside interests and activities are important. For most of us, our child raising years are a rather short part of our lives. My kids are not spaced so closely but I will only be homeschooling for 21 years total and that means 5 more years. Including my oldest's before schooling years, that is only 26 years of child raising. While that is a long time, it is a short time in most of our lifetimes. I was 26 when I had my first and will be 52 when I graduate my youngest. Others with more closely spaced children will have them around for less time. SOme,. with more, it will be a longer time. Regardless, if we live long enough, we will have many more years after that. I think one way to help prevent depression with an empty nest is to develop interests and activities separate from the kids, especially by the time they are teens. ALthough I love my kids and love homeschooling, I am looking forward to other activities I will have after they are gone. Being a docent once again, becoming a master gardener, becoming a CASA volunteer, etc, etc.

[kalanamak]

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

 

The kingpin point in John Rosemond's Six Point Plan, BTW.

[mirth]

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries..

 

The whole idea of "free time" is a relatively new invention. Used to be if you got all your cooking and farming and mending and cleaning and Bible reading activities done before sunset, you were doing pretty good.

 

Said Fonzie to Mr. C trying to get his goat, "And I suppose your mother was just a mother."

[nono]

Oh, but can't it please be for me for awhile? I started working for my Dad when I was 8. I got a job outside the family when I was 14. I've never had more than 1 week off at a time until I was 40 and decided to stay home with my older. Can't I just stay home now and raise my kids? :)

[ChristusG]

Hmmm, not sure that I agree with you. Yes, mothers do need some outside interests just to keep their sanity at times. But I do not feel that working outside the home, generating income, etc is what I need to be doing. God has blessed me with these two beautiful little girls and I intend to mother them until they are grown. I don't feel like I need to do other things to be fulfilled. I enjoy photography and I would love to start my own business in the future....but not at (what I feel) would be the expense of being less hands-on with my children. If I do start a business, I would not take on a full load of clients.

[Danestress]

of any SAHM I know. I'm sure it wasn't your exclusive activity either - you see like someone who always has a fair amount going on. I don't know any woman of my generation who who doesn't do something as part of a ministry, a class, a hobby, who doesn't read or love movies or exercise or do anything except mothering and homemaking.

 

I guess the question is, how much focus is too much? And does the woman's happiness level make any difference? If a woman has children and is very happy running her home and caring for them and doesn't want to take a class or teach a class or do any organized volunteering (as opposed to helping out neighbors and friends as needs arise) is there anything wrong with that?

 

ETA: That sounded more aggressive than I meant it to. I actually can frame a pretty good argument for why yes, it is wrong not to be involved in any kind of ministry or organized volunteer work that you are accountable for. Good topic for discussion - I hope I didn't come across too strongly

Edited January 19, 2010 by Danestress

[The Governess]

I look at mothering as my full-time occupation for now. But it is not my only *interest*. I wouldn't want dh's occupation to be his only interest either. One day dh will retire, and then what will he do? One day, my dc will not need me nearly as much, and then what will I do? We have several things brewing for when that time comes. For now, I am content with my roles as mom and teacher, but I know they won't be the last roles I fill in my life.

[Pretty in Pink]

I honestly can't name a single person that I know IRL who has no outside interests beyond raising her kids. Everyone I know does something, be it bible studies, church ministries, volunteer work, taking classes, book clubs, working out...all of my friends have hobbies and outside interests, even if homemaking/homeschooling/parenting is their primary focus.

 

I guess it would be depressing if one had no outside interests.

[OnTheBrink]

 

I agree that our culture has become too child-centered. I don't necessarily think that has anything to do with being family-focused. To me, they are very different things.

 

I believe God calls each person to something different. For me, I am first a wife and mother. But I have also been called to be a nurse and a photographer. I am blessed to be able to do all these things and keep it balanced. We each have our own path.

 

Well said.

 

There is no way I'd tell a mother of infants and toddlers that she's not doing enough, it needs to be more. I get tired of society downplaying the role of the mother in children's lives. Everyone has a different situation, different needs, different temperaments. I think even if a woman has grown children and desires to stay home, why is that wrong? It's her life, she can choose what she wants to do, and should be able to without someone telling her she's not doing enough. I think depression often stems from other people's expectations and the perceived failure of reaching those expectations. I think that if a woman values her family and has the desire to be a mother and home maker, it should be encouraged and supported. Ministering to your family ≠ child worship.

 

That said, I do believe children should be educated to the end of being able to support themselves, girls and boys alike. The future can't be predicted, and even if my dd marries after college and becomes a home maker and mother, that's no guarantee she'll never have to seek outside work to support the family if there's a crisis.

[Audrey]

I agree with some of what you say, Joanne. I don't think that being a parent (mother OR father) is a poor goal or choice, but I do think that people who go into it saying "I am only going to be parent" and who do not cultivate an education that makes them employable are making a poor choice.

 

However, I disagree with some of what you're saying, too. You said "I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept..." I don't believe that is true for most Americans (& Canadians, btw). However, I do think that is VERY typical behaviour of a certain segment of the christian American population. It doesn't even begin to represent all christian Americans, but it is a segment that seems to be prevalent, if not predominant, in American homeschooling circles. Using that as a lens for viewing the american family is, IMO, receiving a very skewed-from-the-norm perspective.

 

I have some small disagreement that mothers "need to be, do and offer something more...." but I do believe they should be prepared to do so by full access and engagement in education and/or vocational training. I do think it is shameful to disallow further education to girls simply on the misguided idea(l) that they are going to be wives and mothers only, and do not need marketable skills, nor higher education.

 

There is a really big lemon orchard in the garden of life, and plenty to go around. Even someone whose only desire is to be a parent can suddenly find themselves the only source of income for their family. One should be prepared to deal with that. Limiting educational opportunities earlier in life will hamper those people from the start. They will be reduced to either living off the public system, living off a private system (like their church or a charity org), or working minimum wage jobs (which I am not maligning, but which are notoriously inadequate to support a family).

 

As for our culture being too child-centred... I don't think I can agree there, either. I think that children, historically, have been marginalized, and only in the past 20 years or so, have they come more into the mainstream of culture. The fact that our culture recognizes, celebrates, or even has segments that cater to children is not necessarily indicative of our culture being child-centred. One can make a similar argument for the senior/elderly population.

 

I realize this now looks like I disagree with you a lot, but that isn't my intention. I agree with your overall sentiment, and I think I understand from whence you are coming with it. I merely point out these instances where I think we've diverged.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Audrey

[Wildiris]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Clearly it emerges from my life experience. It's a radical departure from what I used to believe and also what I have posted on message boards many years ago.

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

 

 

I am not certain that the child-centered world you speak of has much to do with stay-at-home mothers or mothers at all. And I am not sure one could make the generalization that today's American families are child-centered, but instead American families are looking for any and all means to give their kids an advantage in the world. Perhaps one could also argue that a child-center household is a reflection of a particular class level in American society. As for idealizing the family, maybe one can find this in advertising or between the pages of a novel but not in homes across the country.

 

 

The last time I checked in with my mother or talked to the kids, mothering was a life long focus, a focus even when they are in their fifties and I am in my seventies. One chooses their level of involvement. Homemaking is such a maligned occupation. Homemaking is more than raising a family and driving to soccer practice. Homemaking is making a home: Gardening, bookkeeping for a small home business, sewing, making food, building community,etc. Just because homemaking is a non-paying job does not make those who pursue it "less" than. True, our current economy demands that both parents work to meet the needs of a single family, but there is a trade off. Life cannot be reduced to dollars and cents.

[Joanne]

Joanne, I would have vehemently disagreed with you 5 years ago from a Biblical perspective. But I have come to believe (and feel that the Bible supports) that there is a difference between family as my primary ministry and family as my only ministry. While there are seasons where I feel that it is almost impossible for a woman to see to her family's needs and do anything else (particularly if she has a lot of little ones), I think it is healthy for the mom to find balance and have an identity beyond what her family can give her. I also think it is healthy for the kids to see a mom who is capable of working, whether or not she currently is. My kids are interested in my outside-the-home pursuits, and I think it helps them know me as a human being, not just their mom.

 

The Proverbs 31 Woman seems to support this.

[Joanne]

Hmmm, not sure that I agree with you. Yes, mothers do need some outside interests just to keep their sanity at times. But I do not feel that working outside the home, generating income, etc is what I need to be doing. God has blessed me with these two beautiful little girls and I intend to mother them until they are grown. I don't feel like I need to do other things to be fulfilled. I enjoy photography and I would love to start my own business in the future....but not at (what I feel) would be the expense of being less hands-on with my children. If I do start a business, I would not take on a full load of clients.

 

I'd like to invite you to read the OP again. :) I never asserted the opposite of the bold part.

[laughing lioness]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points. First of all, I find full time homemaking to be a fulling, rewarding vocation that I am happy to consider an art form as well as a life-long focus. Within this vocation I do many, many things. Within the context of homemaking I volunteer, generate income, have a ministry, give and take classes, educate myself and others in various areas. Homemaking as a vocation does not exclued these things, but embraces them.

Secondly, as a MFT who is married to a psychologist who has been in the mental health field for over 20 years, I heartily disagree with the idealization of family. Imho we've idealized self, which is why we have divorce, abuse and a host of other dsyfunctions.

Lastly, I believe that more often than not entitlement, rather than homemaking as a profession, is the root of depression.

I finished a second master's degree 3 years ago, while homeschooling my 5 kids, running a large, successful homeschool cooperative and seeing 10+ clients a week; my home was reasonably clean and my kids all scored decently on the Iowa basic and yet while doing all of that I considered myself, and gladly so, a homemaker.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I definitely think it is beneficial and practical for both men and women to have some sort of skills/trade/schooling/career that they can fall back on:) OTOH, I am also very grateful to be a SAHM presently especially after working as a nurse for 22 years and most of it was full time;) I did not start motherhood till later in life due to the deck of the cards that was given me:) I am also glad that I have career that I could fall back into, but I hope not to have to do so:) I think schooling at home has been a full time job for me and I hope to continue it.

 

OTOH I also think it is possible to have a career and be a good mom as well. I think that both SAHM and moms with careers are both valid, good choices. I do wish that it were easier for moms to stay at home at least when children are younger when they choose to do so since I really believe that it harder to do so than when I was growing up in the 1960's and 1970's. I also think that it benefits children to have family members care for them when they are younger instead of daycare. OTOH, I used daycare for 2-3 days a week when my son was almost 4 for social reasons and to give my parents a break from babysitting since I was working part-time:) I also do not think it is wrong if the roles are reversed and the husband stays at home;)

[OnTheBrink]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points. First of all, I find full time homemaking to be a fulling, rewarding vocation that I am happy to consider an art form as well as a life-long focus. Within this vocation I do many, many things. Within the context of homemaking I volunteer, generate income, have a ministry, give and take classes, educate myself and others in various areas. Homemaking as a vocation does not exclued these things, but embraces them.

Secondly, as a MFT who is married to a psychologist who has been in the mental health field for over 20 years, I heartily disagree with the idealization of family. Imho we've idealized self, which is why we have divorce, abuse and a host of other dsyfunctions.

Lastly, I believe that more often than not entitlement, rather than homemaking as a profession, is the root of depression.

I finished a second master's degree 3 years ago, while homeschooling my 5 kids, running a large, successful homeschool cooperative and seeing 10+ clients a week; my home was reasonably clean and my kids all scored decently on the Iowa basic and yet while doing all of that I considered myself, and gladly so, a homemaker.

 

You are my hero. :)

[HeathenMom]

if i were to be concerned with generating 'income' for my family, it would be out of greed and the desire for a lifestyle that is not necessary. my husband provides more than adequately, allowing me to concentrate on something more important than getting money and things. i have plenty of skills that could allow me to earn a living if the situation required it and i believe lots of women do, regardless of their 'education'.

 

saying society is too 'child-centered', well, i don't think this is quite true. i think the manner of the 'child-centered'-ness is a perversion of over-compensating parents. we are a very child-centered family but i don't run to 100 activities a week and the kids don't dictate our lives.

 

...but i say, if being primarily concerned with the home and the family was good enough for my great-grandmother, it's good enough for me. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

I just finished a newly published book about marriage by the author of "Eat, Pray, Love." To a large extent it is anecdotal, but it does have some historical information (not all of which I agreed with) and some sociological information that indicates that right now in the US: Men benefit much more from marriage in terms of health and wellbeing than women do, and children complicate the effects of marriage on women considerably, and much more so than the effects of marriage on men.

 

I really identified with the author's mother, who cheerfully gave up her career for her children. I did that, and I enjoyed it tremendously. She was ambivalent in her advice to her daughter, the author, though.

 

And I really paid for giving up my career. When DH lost his job, 6 years ago, he took it out on me in ways that we will probably never recover from. One of the most difficult things about that for me was that I supported him completely through that time, and he never supported me at all. For me to become a dependent had been a very difficult transition, but one that I made alone. The only thing I asked of DH was that if he really wanted me to stay with DD (which I did want to do) that he make a complete commitment to it--that I would be very unlikely to ever work again. As I had already had quite a career--20 years in tech--I did not feel that that was a loss. And DH really liked me being home.

 

But once he lost his job, he berated me repeatedly for not making money during the 6 years or so that I had been off. He was furious about it, and claimed no ownership of the idea. He had no sympathy for my position as a dependent on someone without any income, (not that I wanted sympathy, but he never gave any thought to what this was like for me at all.) He was just angry all the time. Specifically at me, as if I was a leech or something.

 

I have very complicated feelings about the whole SAHM thing. I am someone who had a career, enjoyed it, travelled, got that stuff out of my system, and was very ready and happy to become quite markedly domestic--almost a homesteading approach. I still get wistful over that, even after having worked for 6 years since that time. I always thought that it is dangerous to depend too much on a marriage for EVERYTHING--emotional, physical, financial, and romantic wellbeing; and my experience certainly proves that out. But at the same time, I liked being home with my DD so much, and I would never want those years back. I'm glad I was not doing foreign travel anymore. But I feel like I was betrayed by the husband that I trusted, and although I don't hold that against him, he changed in ways that have been very detrimental to our relationship. Now I feel like I have lost my DH for my DD, and lost my sense of myself as a really good mother to the need to work fulltime AND homeschool.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to count on being a SAHM for everything in life. I know there are people on this board who have successfully done so, and I am truly and completely happy for you. But I would never suggest that that be the strategy and that there be no fallback. That's just too dangerous.

 

And, BTW, FWIW, I was never a SAHM who had no other interests. I've never really met one of those, actually. I think they are mythical.

[Night Elf]

I can honestly say I never thought I would see the SAHM/working mothers war hit these boards. :confused:

 

:iagree:

 

However, I'm impressed because I must admit I've never seen the concept of MUST-DO for volunteer and charity work as part of the debate. I'm :lol: !

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I just finished a newly published book about marriage by the author of "Eat, Pray, Love." To a large extent it is anecdotal, but it does have some historical information (not all of which I agreed with) and some sociological information that indicates that right now in the US: Men benefit much more from marriage in terms of health and wellbeing than women do, and children complicate the effects of marriage on women considerably, and much more so than the effects of marriage on men.

 

I really identified with the author's mother, who cheerfully gave up her career for her children. I did that, and I enjoyed it tremendously. She was ambivalent in her advice to her daughter, the author, though.

 

And I really paid for giving up my career. When DH lost his job, 6 years ago, he took it out on me in ways that we will probably never recover from. One of the most difficult things about that for me was that I supported him completely through that time, and he never supported me at all. For me to become a dependent had been a very difficult transition, but one that I made alone. The only thing I asked of DH was that if he really wanted me to stay with DD (which I did want to do) that he make a complete commitment to it--that I would be very unlikely to ever work again. As I had already had quite a career--20 years in tech--I did not feel that that was a loss. And DH really liked me being home.

 

But once he lost his job, he berated me repeatedly for not making money during the 6 years or so that I had been off. He was furious about it, and claimed no ownership of the idea. He had no sympathy for my position as a dependent on someone without any income, (not that I wanted sympathy, but he never gave any thought to what this was like for me at all.) He was just angry all the time. Specifically at me, as if I was a leech or something.

 

I have very complicated feelings about the whole SAHM thing. I am someone who had a career, enjoyed it, travelled, got that stuff out of my system, and was very ready and happy to become quite markedly domestic--almost a homesteading approach. I still get wistful over that, even after having worked for 6 years since that time. I always thought that it is dangerous to depend too much on a marriage for EVERYTHING--emotional, physical, financial, and romantic wellbeing; and my experience certainly proves that out. But at the same time, I liked being home with my DD so much, and I would never want those years back. I'm glad I was not doing foreign travel anymore. But I feel like I was betrayed by the husband that I trusted, and although I don't hold that against him, he changed in ways that have been very detrimental to our relationship. Now I feel like I have lost my DH for my DD, and lost my sense of myself as a really good mother to the need to work fulltime AND homeschool.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to count on being a SAHM for everything in life. I know there are people on this board who have successfully done so, and I am truly and completely happy for you. But I would never suggest that that be the strategy and that there be no fallback. That's just too dangerous.

 

And, BTW, FWIW, I was never a SAHM who had no other interests. I've never really met one of those, actually. I think they are mythical.

:iagree::iagree:

My grandmother used to tell me to get a career and don't get married;) Unfortunately she felt trapped in a marriage to my grandfather who could be difficult to say the least:( She was a wonderful mom and grandma but also had nothing to fall back on. I think there is wisdom in both men and women having careers/skills/education to fall back on since we never know what life will bring us. My dh's grandmother lost her husband when her children were still young and she had to get a career and get a job which was a godsend:)

 

Don't get me wrong. I wish that all marriages would work out but that is not always feasible or desirable and then there is always death and illness or job loss:(

I feel blessed to have married a saint;) I am glad to be at home, but I am also glad to a have a career to fall back on:)

[justamouse]

Speaking from my own experience-I went a bit nutso when I sacrificed myself on the altar of my children. I was a SAHM to three and miserable. I had lost every bit of the talented, inquisitive person my Dh married. Granted, when I had three little babies I did have to devote my full energy to them, and I didn't have a support system.

 

Now I have 6 at home, 5 under 11 (I needto update my siggy) and at this point I have my own interests, hobbies and work. I have a few more things to do then I'll be able to go back to school, and as they get older and more independent, I add more to my schedule. I don't know what I'll be doing when they've all flown the coop, but I'm not planning on activly mothering them, although I am very family centered and plan on being the wildest Grammie ever. (My mom is hardly there for my kids, something that is a sad void in our lives and I plan on being more available)

[Joanne]

if i were to be concerned with generating 'income' for my family, it would be out of greed and the desire for a lifestyle that is not necessary. my husband provides more than adequately, allowing me to concentrate on something more important than getting money and things. i have plenty of skills that could allow me to earn a living if the situation required it and i believe lots of women do, regardless of their 'education'.

 

:)

 

Please read the OP. To be concerned with actually and necessarily generating income was not what I wrote. I did, however, write that I believe every adult should have education or a skill that enables them to generate one.

[OhM]

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

 

I think the argument could be made that this over-emphasis on children's needs came about as the result of two-career families. The market is now meeting needs that used to be addressed by having mothers at home (cooking with and around the children, planning birthday parties, and so on).

 

Perhaps the effect you're decrying is a result of a swing back to a more "traditional" (or what is perceived now as "traditional") family arrangement in the midst of this market place that at first sold their goods by convincing families that they are helping busy and overextended parents to provide necessary "quality" time (read: guilt), but now are claiming to be necessary for a child to grow up to be healthy, successful, or even to just have a "normal" childhood!

 

I think this is an astute observation - it dovetails nicely with the "Gen X parenting" article that was posted earlier today, but I'm not sure that it is the main point of your post?

[Jenny in GA]

Joanne, I would have vehemently disagreed with you 5 years ago from a Biblical perspective. But I have come to believe (and feel that the Bible supports) that there is a difference between family as my primary ministry and family as my only ministry. While there are seasons where I feel that it is almost impossible for a woman to see to her family's needs and do anything else (particularly if she has a lot of little ones), I think it is healthy for the mom to find balance and have an identity beyond what her family can give her. I also think it is healthy for the kids to see a mom who is capable of working, whether or not she currently is. My kids are interested in my outside-the-home pursuits, and I think it helps them know me as a human being, not just their mom.

 

:iagree:

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I really identified with the author's mother, who cheerfully gave up her career for her children. I did that, and I enjoyed it tremendously. She was ambivalent in her advice to her daughter, the author, though.

 

And I really paid for giving up my career. When DH lost his job, 6 years ago, he took it out on me in ways that we will probably never recover from. One of the most difficult things about that for me was that I supported him completely through that time, and he never supported me at all. For me to become a dependent had been a very difficult transition, but one that I made alone. The only thing I asked of DH was that if he really wanted me to stay with DD (which I did want to do) that he make a complete commitment to it--that I would be very unlikely to ever work again. As I had already had quite a career--20 years in tech--I did not feel that that was a loss. And DH really liked me being home.

 

But once he lost his job, he berated me repeatedly for not making money during the 6 years or so that I had been off. He was furious about it, and claimed no ownership of the idea. He had no sympathy for my position as a dependent on someone without any income, (not that I wanted sympathy, but he never gave any thought to what this was like for me at all.) He was just angry all the time. Specifically at me, as if I was a leech or something.

 

I have very complicated feelings about the whole SAHM thing. I am someone who had a career, enjoyed it, travelled, got that stuff out of my system, and was very ready and happy to become quite markedly domestic--almost a homesteading approach. I still get wistful over that, even after having worked for 6 years since that time. I always thought that it is dangerous to depend too much on a marriage for EVERYTHING--emotional, physical, financial, and romantic wellbeing; and my experience certainly proves that out. But at the same time, I liked being home with my DD so much, and I would never want those years back. I'm glad I was not doing foreign travel anymore. But I feel like I was betrayed by the husband that I trusted, and although I don't hold that against him, he changed in ways that have been very detrimental to our relationship. Now I feel like I have lost my DH for my DD, and lost my sense of myself as a really good mother to the need to work fulltime AND homeschool.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to count on being a SAHM for everything in life. I know there are people on this board who have successfully done so, and I am truly and completely happy for you. But I would never suggest that that be the strategy and that there be no fallback. That's just too dangerous.

 

And, BTW, FWIW, I was never a SAHM who had no other interests. I've never really met one of those, actually. I think they are mythical.

 

Thank you for sharing your story as it serves as a precautionary tale of sorts. Even though my dh is a great man and totally agrees with me being a SAHM, I honestly can see my him reacting the same way. Stress will bring out the worst in people and I'm sure things would never be the same between us if (and when) we encounter it in the form of income loss or chronic illness. Makes me sad to think I feel this way....

[LibraryLover]

I don't know the real way, but I know the Barbie way. Go to college, meet Ken, have parents pay all college costs. Incur no loans. Become veterinarians and work out of the barn attached to your house. Take turns saving the puppies and the horsies and working in the garden while the children are napping. Really promise never to get divorced.

 

Or get one of those surgeon jobs where they let you wear the baby in the sling or the toddler plays with blocks at your feet as you do the liver transplant, or get one of those lawyer jobs where while the prosecuting attorney is presenting her case, the defense does Saxon math with his homeschoolers.

Edited January 19, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Mommyof4ks]

I agree that everyone should have the ability to generate income. I became a SAHM before I even finished college, but I finished because if something should happen to dh and I need to earn a living without disrupting the life my kids are used to then I need to be prepared for that. I truly wish that I had some marketable skill that I could just turn into a business if need be, but I don't.

 

Currently I am living a life I enjoy. I am a SAHM to 3 wonderful kids, we are active in our homeschooling community, volunteer, take classes together learn new things that we can enjoy together, and we pursue hobbies and such apart. I really hope that I am not thrust into a position of needing to go back to work for money while my children are young, because as it is my dh makes a very comfortable living for us. This is a season of my life that I thoroughly wish to enjoy. When my kids are grown I may go back to school to get my masters and pursue a career, but then again I may jump into some church activities in order to be the fun grandma I want to be.

 

IMHO the important thing is to have something to fall back on in case the need arises, because no one knows what tomorrow will bring.

 

I also agree with others that our society is child centered not family centered. There are TONS of activities for little kids, I am guilty of buying too many cute clothes for the kids lol, and much of the tv/movie industry is focused on bringing in the teens.

[Guest janainaz]

I don't have a college degree, but I did have a decent job at one point. If I had to go back to work, I'd be a bit lost. I've been out of the workforce for ten years. However, I don't feel right now in my life that I want to pursue a degree. I'm getting ready to start educating my second child and to me, that's enough on my plate. I want to make time for enjoying life and to cherish these years with my kids. Pursuing a degree is not something I have time for right now.

 

I see kids at my local park that have no one to go home to after school. I see neglect and I see that family has NOT been idealized enough and two full-time working parents has done a bit of damage. I do think that kids need a mother or a father to be around and not running like crazy and exhausted and stressed all the time. I think our society has become a bit backwards and made education and jobs the focus and forgotten about the importance of strong family ties and bonds. Life is so far beyond that stuff and people have become so busy that they don't even know how to connect anymore. This is not to say that education is not important - it most certainly is. I am not saying that two working parents are bad parents in any way. I have family members that both work and they are great parents. But they are busier parents and they are more stressed out. I see the impact of their children spending 8+ hours in daycare every day. If moms are depressed, I don't believe in any way it's because they are overly focused on mothering. I think that they DO need to make time to get away and to nurture their own self.

 

As far as kid-centered "stuff", I believe it's BECAUSE the family is no longer the focus. Parents need a quick-fix, a place they can go for "quality" time and ..... many of them are so accustomed to NOT spending time with their children that when they are around them they prefer to have them involved in something else because they can't handle the noise. I've seen it, I've witnessed it. Many of these parents are also busy with their careers and trying to "be" someone and they raise their kids with the same "goals" in mind. Modern day kids are spoiled, but with the wrong stuff.

 

I do think it's great for a mom to offer more in life besides raising kids and your suggestions about them being involved in community more are wonderful ones. Raising kids is a big job and there is nothing wrong with a mother who stays home to focus on her family during that season of her life. There is also nothing wrong with a mother who desires to go get a degree or grow her skills in some area. Everyone is different. Our lives look different and I don't see a right or wrong way to do anything. If a working mom is truly happy it will be reflected in her kids. But I would not blame depression on being a SAHM that does nothing else besides raise kids. I think the majority of women that are depressed are expecting too much from life. The diagnosis of depression is out of control.

 

I do think there is a risk for mothers to face the empty nest and be in for a shock. But that is more rooted in an issue with identify. If I identity everything I am with ONLY being a mother, that is not a good thing. You are right that women need a balance and they need to have another outlet or focus to remind them of the person they were pre-kids. That is just healthy and wise. :001_smile:

[Carol in Cal.]

If a working mom is truly happy it will be reflected in her kids. But I would not blame depression on being a SAHM that does nothing else besides raise kids. I think the majority of women that are depressed are expecting too much from life. The diagnosis of depression is out of control.

 

I do think there is a risk for mothers to face the empty nest and be in for a shock. But that is more rooted in an issue with identify. If I identity everything I am with ONLY being a mother, that is not a good thing. You are right that women need a balance and they need to have another outlet or focus to remind them of the person they were pre-kids. That is just healthy and wise. :001_smile:

 

I think that women who feel frustrated or degraded from being a SAHM or from just doing the same things over and over often get depressed. I don't think it's so much from high expectations from life as it is from society tending to look down on SAHM's, and that's not as it should be. A good SAHM is doing a tough job and a crucial one. But that tends not to be valued by DH's or by the larger culture in a real way.

 

"The Feminine Mystique" calls this the problem that has no name--massive unhappiness among 'lucky' SAHM's in the suburbs in the 50's. There was a fair amount of truth to the critique, but the solution was not really workable. The fact is, there isn't really a workable solution to this. Women who are SAHM's are not respected or economically protected in our culture the way they should be, and so society as a whole, as well as individual moms, suffer for this--especially the children. If there were real social supports for SAHM's that made them secure without earning an income, then our society would be credible in calling this 'the most important job in the world.' BTW, I actually do think it is the most important job in the world. But our culture doesn't really think that.

 

An interesting book about this is "The Hearts of Men", which argues that men started leaving their families and idealizing the single life long before the feminist movement kicked up. The stats are pretty convincing to me, and indicate the feminist movement was more a reaction to men's changes in values than the cause of them--something that I had not thought of before, but find historically quite credible. It's no accident that the main Christian men's movement in support of the family is called "Promise Keepers'. Women who stay home and men who keep their promises to support them are both doing something that goes against the culture and against their own economic self-interests, and they are both betting on the other one continuing to do so until the children are grown. It's a lot to expect.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Carol in Cal.

[Rosy]

Why are people referring to this as "mommy wars"? No one is saying anyone should work or not work, just that it is desirable to have a marketable skill if one should need it. What is so offensive about that? :confused:

 

Anyway, I also agree that our culture is child-centered but not family-centered. I think a lot of the activities, over-the-top birthday party venues, etc. are a reaction to people feeling guilty for having exchanged time with the kids for money.

 

That said, I think it is entirely possible for a woman to have a marketable skill and even to *use* said skill, and still be family-centered. So many jobs can be done from home and worked around the family's schedule. Same with finishing educations.

 

Honestly, I think the idea that a woman can't be a good mother unless her family is her only focus is a patriarchal idea whose intentions might be benign, but can be destructive.

[Garga]

I've updated my to-do list for tomorrow. I'm going to find out if there's still time to sign up for classes this semester.

 

The one biggest worry in my life right now is "what would happen if dh couldn't work or died or something?"

 

I spent 13 years in the workforce and by the time I was done, I had a really great job, but I worked my way up the ladder. I don't have a college education. If I tried to get a job today, I'd have to start back at the bottom of the ladder (or very near.) I need some sort of degree so that I'm in the running if I have to search for a job. Anyone looking at my resume, and seeing no college would just toss mine out.

 

It's time to put this fear to rest. If it's too late to sign up for this semester, I'm going to mark my calendar in time to sign up for a summer course.

 

Thanks for the kick in the rear.

[Guest janainaz]

I think that women who feel frustrated or degraded from being a SAHM or from just doing the same things over and over often get depressed. I don't think it's so much from high expectations from life as it is from society tending to look down on SAHM's, and that's not as it should be. A good SAHM is doing a tough job and a crucial one. But that tends not to be valued by DH's or by the larger culture in a real way.

 

"The Feminine Mystique" calls this the problem that has no name--massive unhappiness among 'lucky' SAHM's in the suburbs in the 50's. There was a fair amount of truth to the critique, but the solution was not really workable. The fact is, there isn't really a workable solution to this. Women who are SAHM's are not respected or economically protected in our culture the way they should be, and so society as a whole, as well as individual moms, suffer for this--especially the children. If there were real social supports for SAHM's that made them secure without earning an income, then our society would be credible in calling this 'the most important job in the world.' BTW, I actually do think it is the most important job in the world. But our culture doesn't really think that.

 

An interesting book about this is "The Hearts of Men", which argues that men started leaving their families and idealizing the single life long before the feminist movement kicked up. The stats are pretty convincing to me, and indicate the feminist movement was more a reaction to men's changes in values than the cause of them--something that I had not thought of before, but find historically quite credible. It's no accident that the main Christian men's movement in support of the family is called "Promise Keepers'. Women who stay home and men who keep their promises to support them are both doing something that goes against the culture and against their own economic self-interests, and they are both betting on the other one continuing to do so until the children are grown. It's a lot to expect.

 

I'm a SAHM and I don't need society to support my decision to do so. Why are women getting depressed over other people not thinking or believing they are a somebody? I FEEL like a someone and believe in what I'm doing and enjoy being here with my family. I had opportunities to go somewhere big in my career and I had zero interest. Having a big job and a big income did not fill me. SAHM's need to believe in what they do from inside and that is not society's fault if they are depressed. I think there is something backwards in the thinking that you have to have a JOB or be doing something to be someone. I don't get it.

 

 

I had a father who was very focused on his career when I grew up. I had a mother who was a SAHM and was miserable and I felt it every single day that she was married to my father. But then when they were divorced, her focus was on finding a new man and it was never on me. I was invisible.

 

My kids are not going to ever feel like they are invisible and they are not going to live with someone who is depressed and miserable. Some women have something interally, emotionally wrong and if they are depressed at home, chances are they are going to be depressed outside the home. If they need to be supported by society to feel whole, there is something wrong.

 

And FWIW, when I go AGAINST the grain in society, I feel good. I don't want to blend in with the insanity that has been created. I want no part of it.

 

And I mean that all nicely, it's just my opinion and I know not shared by all. :tongue_smilie:

Edited January 19, 2010 by janainaz

[chaik76]

Just to clarify, I am not (and my post does not say) that I am anti SAHM. I was one, would make the same choice and will still encourage others to do the same.

 

I just don't think mothering and homemaking (and homeschooling) should be the exclusive activity of an adult woman.

I have to say, they aren't, never have been, and never will be. At the same time...I hope never to go back into a career. I like being home, and dh and I knew before we married that I wanted to be home before we had children, while we had children, and after our children were grown and moved out. While I enjoy these mothering years, I still focus a lot on the things that interest me...education (long before I considered homeschooling), writing, reading, etc. I plan on continuing with those things when my children or grown; or perhaps I will have acquired new interests.

 

I'm not a person who volunteers, ministers, or has a job. And I don't plan to. Those aren't my goals and they do not suit me. But I endeavor to be happy in my choices. I do not think that every person must volunteer, minister, or have a job...or be outside the home somewhere. I'm always going to be a homebody, and always have been. I contribute by being me. I'm someone who pursues education for the sake of education, who reads for fun, who writes for fun, etc. I expect those to be the things I pursue.

 

What makes you think that everyone must have something they do?

 

FTR, we are not a particularly child-focused family.

 

ETA: If necessary, I do have the skills to generate income...and yes, I do think that all adults should have the ability to do so (barring other issues, of course). However, I do not agree that all must do something...whether that be volunteering, ministering, etc.

Edited January 19, 2010 by chaik76

[Joanne]

Why are people referring to this as "mommy wars"? No one is saying anyone should work or not work, just that it is desirable to have a marketable skill if one should need it. What is so offensive about that? :confused:

 

Anyway, I also agree that our culture is child-centered but not family-centered. I think a lot of the activities, over-the-top birthday party venues, etc. are a reaction to people feeling guilty for having exchanged time with the kids for money.

 

That said, I think it is entirely possible for a woman to have a marketable skill and even to *use* said skill, and still be family-centered. So many jobs can be done from home and worked around the family's schedule. Same with finishing educations.

 

Honestly, I think the idea that a woman can't be a good mother unless her family is her only focus is a patriarchal idea whose intentions might be benign, but can be destructive.

 

Much better stated than what I wrote. ;)

 

I do see that my OP had related but separate issues. I also realize all these pages into it that I have not experienced put downs *as* a SAHM and so I am not bringing defensiveness to the table on that issue. Oh, my xh put me down, but he would have done so if I were a CFO or CEO.:lol:

 

I think my perception of making an idol of family emerges from my peer group, which is mostly homeschooling families. This probably does *not* reflect our culture as a whole. I'm trying to process where I percieve my former daycare clients on that scale. I'll get back to you.

 

To clarify, I was and would again be an at home mom to littles and very possibly until they were out of the home if I were able.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm a SAHM and I don't need society to support my decision to do so. Why are women getting depressed over other people not thinking or believing they are a somebody? I FEEL like a someone and believe in what I'm doing and enjoy being here with my family. I had opportunities to go somewhere big in my career and I had zero interest. Having a big job and a big income did not fill me. SAHM's need to believe in what they do from inside and that is not society's fault if they are depressed. I think there is something backwards in the thinking that you have to have a JOB or be doing something to be someone. I don't get it.

 

 

 

I agree, you don't need a job to be somebody. But in our society, you need either a job or someone who is willing to support you to survive. That's the economic truth of it.

 

Personally, I loved staying home with my DD. I never felt worthless or depressed--those were the happiest years of my life. And I believed in it from the inside.

 

But nevertheless, society as a whole does not truly support that choice with much other than lipservice. And I don't think that that is good for us as a whole, for families, or most especially for children.

[Guest janainaz]

I agree, you don't need a job to be somebody. But in our society, you need either a job or someone who is willing to support you to survive. That's the economic truth of it.

 

Personally, I loved staying home with my DD. I never felt worthless or depressed--those were the happiest years of my life. And I believed in it from the inside.

 

But nevertheless, society as a whole does not truly support that choice with much other than lipservice. And I don't think that that is good for us as a whole, for families, or most especially for children.

 

And this is the reason that it would be great for more women to stay home. I think there are a huge amount of working women who WANT to be home, but can't or don't want to downsize and live with less in order to do so. As far as kids go, are you saying that because society does not support women being home as they should that women should find something else to do? I'm just not clear what your point is. I just think women who want to stay home need to stand firm and be proud of what they are doing. That IS good for children to see.