Muslim/Christian Unrest in Malaysia: PLEASE PRAY

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Is that what missionaries do? Really? :confused:

 

LOL!!!! Well, I don't know about other missionaries, but that's our goal! LOL (this was meant to be read in a sarcastic tone, by the way)

 

Actually, I have a lot of friends who are currently working in muslim countries. They help people no matter what. They aren't free to openly share their faith, they are there because it's where they feel they are supposed to be at this moment in time.

 

They don't "proselytize". For every 10 muslims people they help maybe one will ask them about their beliefs. And most of them wait to be asked. If they are asked, they share. Simple as that. They are there because their hearts beat for the muslim people. They want to help.

 

I also have a bil who is serving in Iraq for his 2nd tour. He is sacrificing a lot right now. I don't look at him as an occupier of Iraq. I look at him as one who brings freedom and hope to the Iraqi people. What they do with it is their business--but at least they have a choice. They know they have a choice. I'm proud of him. More than I can say.

[Spy Car]

 

but i guess some people would find being proselytized to an acceptable excuse for committing murder.

 

The fact of the matter is that there are people who would find it a justified response to kill people who would try to proselytize their children. Apostasy (leaving the faith) is a very serious crime in Islam.

 

I've attempted to warn Heather many times that her school is at grave risk if it associates with missionaries who attempt to convert Muslim children.

 

That's playing with fire.

 

how many countries are there *now* that are "Christian-only"?

 

The only one that springs to mind is Armenia.

 

Bill

[Cathy in IL]

No advice. I'm just glad you posted because I have been wondering about and praying for you.

[Amy in TX]

Apostasy (leaving the faith) is a very serious crime in Islam.

 

It's not actually a "crime" in Islam, in the sense of something punishable by law. The Quran says that God will judge apostates, and nowhere tells believers to punish them (3:86-88, 4:137, 5:54, 16:106).

 

The Quran also says that there can be no compulsion in matters of faith (2:256).

 

There are some accounts of the Prophet Muhammad (as) having "apostates" executed, but these were always in the context of war, i.e., combatants who committed treason. There are other accounts of him doing nothing to individuals who chose to leave the muslim community.

 

:)

[Carol in Cal.]

It is punishable by the state.

[Amy in TX]

It is punishable by the state.

 

Oh, I know. In various countries it is. That's a whole other can of worms. But as a muslim I always try to make sure that info I see publicly about the actual teachings of Islam is accurate.

 

:)

 

Edited to add: I wanted to make clear what the teachings of Islam are (no compulsion in matters of faith), as opposed to laws passed in various countries in the name of Islam that actually violate the teachings of Islam.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Amy in TX

[asta]

Oh, I know. In various countries it is. That's a whole other can of worms. But as a muslim I always try to make sure that info I see publicly about the actual teachings of Islam is accurate.

 

:)

 

Edited to add: I wanted to make clear what the teachings of Islam are (no compulsion in matters of faith), as opposed to laws passed in various countries in the name of Islam that actually violate the teachings of Islam.

 

And, back to post #26, where there is no separation of church and state in Islam... remember - Islam is not to be interpreted through western mores.

 

 

a

[Spy Car]

Oh, I know. In various countries it is. That's a whole other can of worms. But as a muslim I always try to make sure that info I see publicly about the actual teachings of Islam is accurate.

 

:)

 

Edited to add: I wanted to make clear what the teachings of Islam are (no compulsion in matters of faith), as opposed to laws passed in various countries in the name of Islam that actually violate the teachings of Islam.

 

"No compulsion in religion" isn't completely accurate, as non-Muslims can be forced to pay extra taxes if they don't convert. And "ideals" in any faith aren't always lived up to in practice.

 

While legal authorities may not hold apostasy to be a capital crime, in the real world there are plenty of people who believe otherwise on religious grounds. And people who are ignorant enough to believe Christians using the Arabic name for God is some sort of profanity, are ignorant enough to do violence to missionaries who lead family members away from their faith.

 

I'm sure you would not disagree that proselytizing Muslim children in a Muslim nation (especially one with unrest) is a very dangerous thing for a Christian school to be associated with.

 

Bill

[Amy in TX]

"No compulsion in religion" isn't completely accurate, as non-Muslims can be forced to pay extra taxes if they don't convert. And "ideals" in any faith aren't always lived up to in practice.

 

While legal authorities may not hold apostasy to be a capital crime, in the real world there are plenty of people who believe otherwise on religious grounds. And people who are ignorant enough to believe Christians using the Arabic name for God is some sort of profanity, are ignorant enough to do violence to missionaries who lead family members away from their faith.

 

I'm sure you would not disagree that proselytizing Muslim children in a Muslim nation (especially one with unrest) is a very dangerous thing for a Christian school to be associated with.

 

Bill

 

Yes to all of the above. My for-the-record post was strictly an attempt to make sure the teachings of my faith were accurately represented. Not to disagree with the general point of your post.

 

:)

[helena]

In the last century, the Christian faith has been peaceful towards other religions and people. You don't hear pastors calling for the deaths of those that don't practice Christianity. Nor are any strapping bombs to themselves and their children to kill others. Yes, there are some quacks out there that have attacked abortian clinics/doctors but I believe that to be a rare exception by some misguided people.

 

Bosnian Genocide 1992-1995

Lord's Resistance Army 1987-present

Nazism Positive Christianity

Ustasa 1929-1945

KKK Lynchings in the United States 1700s-1950s

Genocide of Australian Aboriginals, stolen generations approx. 1869-1969

Sabra-Shatila Massacre Lebanon 1982

All of these groups saw themselves as Christian.

 

I'm thinking that a reasonable response would be,"those were not true Christians, those people were way off track". That's how I feel about Muslims strapping bombs to their bodies...

it's a mess out there, everyone it seems has blood on their hands.

 

Asta, you're right.

That's the last I'll say.

Heather, please be careful.

Edited January 10, 2010 by helena

[asta]

 

it's a mess out there, everyone it seems has blood on their hands.

 

Yep.

 

For thousands of years.

 

 

But for right now, we just need to concentrate on Heather.

 

 

asta

[LNC]

My family has been praying for your family, Heather. Please send in updates when you can.:grouphug:

[Heather in Neverland]

Hey gang...well there is more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100110/ap_on_re_as/as_malaysia_allah_ban

 

So I think that is 7 churches hit so far and the recent ones in Taiping are only an hour away. But most of these attacks seem more like ill-planned vandalism...the "bombs" are home-made and poorly done and they aren't even going off. It feels more like they are just trying to intimidate us or like it is a bunch of teenagers who don't know what they are doing. weird.

 

We went to church this morning. Our entire congregation spent the morning praying with one another over the bombings, praying for the ones who are attacking the churches, praying that the response of the Christians in this country would be God-honoring, etc. There were no fiery speeches of anger meant to incite retaliation...just words of love and forgiveness. It was exactly what I needed to hear.

 

The bible tells us we will face persecution. We are ready if necessary to flee the country but we will not let fear rule our lives. We will go about business as usual with an extra dose of diligence.

 

And Spycar is correct...he has warned me. Our school does not have any Muslim children in it so we are not prosyletizing them. We do have many missionary families but I do not know which ones if any work directly with the Muslim community because if they do, they don't talk about it. The ones I know work with the buddhist and hindu communities of which there are many in Penang. And while the rest of Malaysia is 60% Muslim, Penang is 70% NOT Muslim. Does that mean we are safe? Of course not. It just means that it may be a while before violence spreads this way. At least I am hoping and praying.

 

We are still on holiday. School doesn't start for another week so I am praying this dies down a little before then. Your prayers are appreciated.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:Sending prayers your way.:grouphug:

[rookie]

Honesly, I have not met a Christian Denomination either Protestant or Catholic that did not believe/teach that if you do not believe/have faith in their interpretation of the salvation through Christ the NT (by faith, by works, a combo), you are not saved. I have been told by Catholics that non-Catholic Christians are not saved. I have been told by Protestants that Catholics (and possibly other confused denominations) are not saved. And as for the rest of the non-Christian world, well they are definitely NOT saved! So, I do not think that any Christian group is free from this kind of meesage.

 

That said, I know lots and lots of Christian missionaries who do real work and help local communities - regardless of their beliefs -- with love, dignity, and a dedication that is miraculous. They do not spend their time proselytizing but rather helping. There is a huge difference, I think, if someone asks you about your faith because THEY are interested and want to learn more than if you are forcing it.

[the4Rs]

Heather- I think your plan to be prepared but go about life as usual is prudent and shows you put your trust fully in God. He brought you there maybe for such a time as this...who knows the ways of God.

 

You are being prayed over.

 

 

To those dragging this thread into a heated "religious" debate, please use wisdom and refrain from posting. It helps no one least of all heather and those living in areas of unrest.

[Kathleen in VA]

Heather,

 

I've been praying for you for several days now. Your latest post was very encouraging. I'm glad to hear of the response your church is having. These are the kinds of situations that create the opportunity to show true Christian love and forgiveness. Your testimony is beautiful.:)

 

I'll continue to pray for your safety and for the safety of all Christians in your part of the world. The Lord richly bless you as you live your life in His service.

 

:grouphug:

[EmilyK]

And informed me about some of the issues. At the end, someone is quoted as saying the country is mostly as normal:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/world/asia/11malaysia.html?hp

[newbie]

Praying for you and your family's safety.

[Spy Car]

 

Thousands of Moslem police and military men have died fighting for the same cause we are. You dishonor them with your comment.

 

[/font][/color]

 

I'd suggest you could show Muslims more respect by not using an archaic spelling that mis-transliterates the Arabic and lends to a mis-pronunciation in English. Surely you know better, yet you persist :glare:

 

Bill

[PineFarmMom]

I'm taking a break from here for a while but opened the board up and saw the OP when it came out a few days ago. I've been praying for you, Heather, and came on because I wanted to respond, also.

 

I think that if you and your husband prayed a lot about your decision to go to Malaysia before you ever left the states, and you placed your family in God's hands, then honestly, there is no safer place in the world than doing His will. I don't think this is really a question or an issue that anyone but you, your dh, and God can solve for you. It likely won't make sense to the world, but he doesn't always ask us to do things that make sense to non-Christians or even other Christians. He asks us to follow Him and obey His voice!! If you are listening to Him and every other person in the world tells you you're wrong, then you're still doing His will...He always knows best!! Being salt & light often means turning the world's way of doing things on its head.

 

I have been and will continue to pray for your safety.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Texas T

[PineFarmMom]

 

Are you serious?

 

1. Afghanistan was invaded because the government harbored a terrorist organization and allowed terrorists to maintain bases in that nation. The result of this involves a date you may want to remember Sept 11, 2001. That you would even bring this up is astounding. Following our attack on the Afghan government we have attempted to allow free elections, we have allowed females to go to school, we have done numerous things that have resulted in large numbers of Moslems being supportive of us. Thousands of Moslem police and military men have died fighting for the same cause we are. You dishonor them with your comment.

 

2. 10 years ago we bombed and attacked Serbia in order to prevent massacres of the Moslem population.

 

3. We have vastly reduced our presence in Iraq and again allowed the people to have a large part in the choice of their government something they did not have before.

 

4. Our bases in Kuwait and Bahrain are at the behest and with the full concurrence of the national governments.

 

 

You said "We hardly ever seem to occupy European or Asian countries that can actually take us" what does this mean? Which nation in Europe would you have us occupy? Shall we invade France until they agree that California wines are palatable. Shall we invade Japan to stop those horrible virtual pets? How about San Marino, they really are hard to find on a map and it would make it easier for school children if that were just part of Italy.

 

I would argue we invade nations that do things like allow terrorist training camps on their territory and harbor terrorists who succeeded in murdering thousands of Americans (but then again what do I know). By the way both Iraq and Afghanistan are in Asia and within the last 10 years we did (as stated above) attack Serbia (in Europe).

 

If your argument is that extremists have taken advantage of this to stir up their adherents, you are correct, but our very existence does this. Have you ever seen extremist propaganda? It is not only that we are in Iraq but also that women in the West are (what term did I see used...oh yes) immodest (and that was the nicest word they used), that we have stepped away from God and (you will like this one) we allow open homosexuality.

 

If you want us to endear ourselves to extremists or those susceptible to their views we would have to take actions that most of us would find in violation of the rights of our citizens. So yes I have noticed what we do to anger extremists, we do this by enjoying freedom.

 

Great post, pqr. So. very. true!!!

[pqr]

I'd suggest you could show Muslims more respect by not using an archaic spelling that mis-transliterates the Arabic and lends to a mis-pronunciation in English. Surely you know better, yet you persist :glare:

 

Bill

 

I also call Myanmar, Burma and, horror of horrors, use Australia for the continent not Oceania

 

From Websters

 

Moslem

 

 

Main Entry: Mos·lem

Pronunciation: \ˈmäz-ləm also ˈmäs-\

variant of muslim

 

From about.com

 

Muslim

 

By Huda, About.com Guide

 

Definition: A person who peacefully submits his or her self to God; a follower of the faith of Islam.

Pronunciation: moos-lim (with a strong 's' sound as in 'snake')

Alternate Spellings: Moslem -- but "Muslim" is preferred and renders a pronunciation more faithful to the Arabic word. (pqr's underlining and comment, preferred does not indicate that any lack of respect is shown by not using a preferred spelling, simply that I am using a variant)

Common Misspellings: "Muslim" is used when referring to people; "Islamic" refers to countries, laws, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course the American Moslem Foundation obviously does not find the word upsetting enough to change their name. (Yes I know that they use the more modern spelling in their articles, but the old spelling is still there).

 

There is no disrespect to Islam meant in my using the spelling still used in many books, taught to me in school and used when I lived in the Middle East.

 

Surely you can find something more substantive to disagree with me on.

Edited January 10, 2010 by pqr

[Spy Car]

I also call Myanmar, Burma and, horror of horrors, use Australia for the continent not Oceania

 

From Websters

 

Moslem

 

 

Main Entry: Mos·lem

Pronunciation: \ˈmäz-ləm also ˈmäs-\

variant of muslim

 

From about.com

 

Muslim

 

By Huda, About.com Guide

 

Definition: A person who peacefully submits his or her self to God; a follower of the faith of Islam.

Pronunciation: moos-lim (with a strong 's' sound as in 'snake')

Alternate Spellings: Moslem -- but "Muslim" is preferred and renders a pronunciation more faithful to the Arabic word. (pqr's underlining and comment, preferred does not indicate that any lack of respect is shown by not using a preferred spelling, simply that I am using a variant)

Common Misspellings: "Muslim" is used when referring to people; "Islamic" refers to countries, laws, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course the American Moslem Foundation obviously does not find the word upsetting enough to change their name. (Yes I know that they use the more modern spelling in their articles, but the old spelling is still there).

 

There is no disrespect to Islam meant in my using the spelling still used in many books, taught to me in school and used when I lived in the Middle East.

 

Surely you can find something more substantive to disagree with me on.

 

It is a thumb in the eye, and you know it.

 

Bill

[Peek a Boo]

It is a thumb in the eye, and you know it.

 

Bill

 

then I'll be sure to reserve that spelling for the fringe lunatics and not the truly peaceful people.

 

The ones bombing churches and airplanes and beheading people get to be Moslems.

[pqr]

It is a thumb in the eye, and you know it.

 

Bill

 

 

I am so glad that YOU know what I am thinking......seriously though you are simply wrong on my motivations and once again we will just have to disagree.

 

I will let you in on a secret. I have been known to spell defense with a "c" just to poke the Department of Defense in the eye. And the next time the Coast Guard inspects my boat I will spell harbor with a "u".

 

Again, surely you can find something more substantive to disagree with me on.

Edited January 10, 2010 by pqr

[Rosie_0801]

 

Are you serious?

 

1. Afghanistan was invaded because the government harbored a terrorist organization and allowed terrorists to maintain bases in that nation.

 

And why did the Afghani government do that?

 

Following our attack on the Afghan government we have attempted to allow free elections, we have allowed females to go to school, we have done numerous things that have resulted in large numbers of Moslems being supportive of us. Thousands of Moslem police and military men have died fighting for the same cause we are.

 

Before the Taliban, Afghani girls went to school. By all means pat yourselves on the back for restoring such pleasures, but don't get too carried away and imagine you were the first to grant them. (Not saying you imagine anything of the sort, merely suggesting that history always goes back a little bit further than where you are starting from.)

 

Rosie

[Spy Car]

then I'll be sure to reserve that spelling for the fringe lunatics and not the truly peaceful people.

 

The ones bombing churches and airplanes and beheading people get to be Moslems.

 

The only problem with this plan is that the fringe lunatics won't care, and it will only be the Muslims of good will (the vast majority) including the Muslim posters on this board whose sensibilities are likely to be offended.

 

Most people don't refer to African-Americans as "negroes"(with the lame excuse that it's OK because the NAACP has kept its historic name) unless they deliberately wish to cause offense. Using the term "Moslem" falls in the same class and says more about the users mind-set than anything else. If you don't want to sound like a bigot*, it's a term best avoided.

 

Bill

 

*understanding some people do want to get this message across loud and clear.

[pqr]

 

 

Before the Taliban, Afghani girls went to school. By all means pat yourselves on the back for restoring such pleasures, but don't get too carried away and imagine you were the first to grant them. (Not saying you imagine anything of the sort, merely suggesting that history always goes back a little bit further than where you are starting from.)

 

Rosie

 

 

You are correct, but that was not the situation on the ground when the troops arrived.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

1. Afghanistan was invaded because the government harbored a terrorist organization and allowed terrorists to maintain bases in that nation. . . Following our attack on the Afghan government we have attempted to allow free elections,

 

If you want us to endear ourselves to extremists or those susceptible to their views we would have to take actions that most of us would find in violation of the rights of our citizens. So yes I have noticed what we do to anger extremists, we do this by enjoying freedom.

 

 

 

I have heard many media reports that the elections in Afghanistan were rigged by American and the UN. there have been many high up UN officials that have resigned over the rigged voting in Afghanistan. I really question the freedom of an invading country, rigging elections and putting in a government they favour. I really think this would anger extremists.

[CAMom]

Praying for you, Heather.

 

I really hope your thread doesn't get locked or deleted altogether. I'd hate not to be able to see further updates and I'd hate to see you not be blessed to see all of the prayers and well wishes of others.

 

:grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree: and will continue to pray for you and yours Heather :grouphug:

 

My family especially my little ones are raising their voices to Heaven for your peace and safety.

 

~~Faithe

I'm taking a break from here for a while but opened the board up and saw the OP when it came out a few days ago. I've been praying for you, Heather, and came on because I wanted to respond, also.

 

I think that if you and your husband prayed a lot about your decision to go to Malaysia before you ever left the states, and you placed your family in God's hands, then honestly, there is no safer place in the world than doing His will. I don't think this is really a question or an issue that anyone but you, your dh, and God can solve for you. It likely won't make sense to the world, but he doesn't always ask us to do things that make sense to non-Christians or even other Christians. He asks us to follow Him and obey His voice!! If you are listening to Him and every other person in the world tells you you're wrong, then you're still doing His will...He always knows best!! Being salt & light often means turning the world's way of doing things on its head.

 

I have been and will continue to pray for your safety.

[Heather in Neverland]

Praying for you, Heather.

 

I really hope your thread doesn't get locked or deleted altogether. I'd hate not to be able to see further updates and I'd hate to see you not be blessed to see all of the prayers and well wishes of others.

 

:grouphug:

 

Thank you. I just woke up to see this thread has taken a contentious turn. Tis life here on the boards, I suppose. :confused:

 

I know people often say "I'm praying for you" for this and that, but you all have no idea how amazing it is to me at this very moment to know people from all over the world are praying for the safety of my family. It means so much to us right now. :grouphug:

[Stacy in NJ]

This gives me the perfect opportunity to link this irrelevant but hi-larious SNL skit.

 

I'm naming this skit: "In which we see the results of insipid political correctness on the conscienceness of Americans:"

 

 

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Thank you. I just woke up to see this thread has taken a contentious turn. Tis life here on the boards, I suppose. :confused:

 

I know people often say "I'm praying for you" for this and that, but you all have no idea how amazing it is to me at this very moment to know people from all over the world are praying for the safety of my family. It means so much to us right now. :grouphug:

 

Heather--even if the thread gets locked, I want to stay updated with you about prayer requests. Your family is on my prayer list and I love to pray specifically for you. Please try to keep us posted.:grouphug:

[tex-mex]

Praying for you and your family, Heather!!!

Edited January 10, 2010 by tex-mex

[Carol in Cal.]

And I will continue to do so.

[Chris in VA]

Heather, today I talked with my assistant pastor's husband, who works for the Hudson Institute and works around the world with people who are persecuted for their religion (and hence has lots of international experience). He says he thinks you are wise to keep in contact with the Embassy, but that, if your school doesn't have any Muslim kids, you are probably just fine. He says lots of Muslim kids do go to Christian schools in Malaysia because they tend to be better academically (we see this right here in NoVa, too), or at least have that reputation. (I know you know that--that's just fyi for the rest of us.)

 

We are in prayer for you, and our little group will pray for you tomorrow between 8:30 and 9:30 am.

[Starr]

We continue to pray for you. Keep us posted even if you have to start another thread. :)

[8circles]

Heather, I kept thinking of this last night & thought I would share it with you. I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

 

Anyway, about 10 years ago or so, my aunt (in her late 60's, widowed, retired schoolteacher) started teaching at an international elementary school in Turkey. It wasn't a Christian school but certainly many of the students were children of missionaries. None of the children were Muslim. She was very vigilant about making sure this was a legal, government approved school & all the appropriate paperwork was done. Turns out one of the local Muslim families that lived near the school didn't like them being there (or so the story goes) & the police came in & shut down the school. As in, came into her 2nd grade classroom with guns drawn & made everyone get on the floor to be handcuffed. Apparently the paperwork had been 'lost' & all the teachers & admin were held in jail & interrogated over several days. Needless to say, the school is gone but under the circumstances it ended as well as it could. Fines were paid & at least my aunt can never go back to Turkey. I'm not sure about the others.

 

I'm not meaning to scare you with this story - I'm sure you already know about these kinds of things. & obviously, Malaysia & Turkey have different religious/political/cultural climates.

 

I'm still thinking/praying for you & your school.

[RoughCollie]

I am praying for you.

Edited January 11, 2010 by RoughCollie

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather, I kept thinking of this last night & thought I would share it with you. I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

 

Anyway, about 10 years ago or so, my aunt (in her late 60's, widowed, retired schoolteacher) started teaching at an international elementary school in Turkey. It wasn't a Christian school but certainly many of the students were children of missionaries. None of the children were Muslim. She was very vigilant about making sure this was a legal, government approved school & all the appropriate paperwork was done. Turns out one of the local Muslim families that lived near the school didn't like them being there (or so the story goes) & the police came in & shut down the school. As in, came into her 2nd grade classroom with guns drawn & made everyone get on the floor to be handcuffed. Apparently the paperwork had been 'lost' & all the teachers & admin were held in jail & interrogated over several days. Needless to say, the school is gone but under the circumstances it ended as well as it could. Fines were paid & at least my aunt can never go back to Turkey. I'm not sure about the others.

 

I'm not meaning to scare you with this story - I'm sure you already know about these kinds of things. & obviously, Malaysia & Turkey have different religious/political/cultural climates.

 

I'm still thinking/praying for you & your school.

 

Wow. that must have been very scary for her! Well Dalat is well-established, been here for 40 years, and completely on the up and up with an excellent international reputation. Not to say that they still couldn't force us to close...I don't know about all those laws.

 

Things have been quiet today thankfully.

[LibraryLover]

Things have been quiet today thankfully.

 

 

Good news. Stay safe.

[OHGrandma]

Praying for God's guidance and blessing in all you do.

[MariannNOVA]

Things have been quiet today thankfully.

 

Thanks for the update -- please continue to provide them! :) Our family is praying for you and yours. And, yes, :iagree:, it is a great comfort to know that even when our mind wanders, we can take great comfort in knowing that there are others 'out there' in prayer for us. :grouphug:

 

Mariann

[TravelingChris]

Heard about more churches bombed. Yes, a lot of us are praying for you and for all the Christians there. Count me in.