Has anyone heard that hsing can be detrimental to a child's emotional dev?

[Sherri in MI]

There are other professionals with a different viewpoint. You could recommend Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld, Ph.D. and Gabor Mate, M.D. If I can restate some of their thesis intelligently :001_unsure: peer-oriented children are less likely to mature and individuate than those with healthy attachments to adults. To help develop true independence, healthy family ties are far more important.

 

I'm definitely going to have to check this book out! Thanks for the recommendation!

 

Now I'm going to get off this computer and try to do Christmas things!

 

Sherri

[Tammyla]

:iagree:I recommend this book too.:iagree:

 

Originally Posted by KathyBC

There are other professionals with a different viewpoint. You could recommend Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld, Ph.D. and Gabor Mate, M.D. If I can restate some of their thesis intelligently peer-oriented children are less likely to mature and individuate than those with healthy attachments to adults. To help develop true independence, healthy family ties are far more important.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

In fact, Neufeld and Mate argue that we have an entire generation of adults who have not matured. He talks a bit in his presentations about parents who are children themselves - & he does not mean age. He's talking about peer-dependent adults, stuck in various levels of development, and trying to raise their own children.

 

Neufeld btw is a developmental psychologist.

 

I would just hand this person this book & say, read this & let's talk it about some more when you're done. I think they're misunderstanding "development" which is a very complicated issue & there are lots of views on it. Jung's concept of steps leading to individuation is I think quite central and remains strong in most theories of development but the general public is not very well versed in these theories. And in the academic realm, I think we've lost the meaning of what 'individuation' looks like (as well as what community and family look like....)

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Do any of you have a background in child development?

 

I have a B.S. in Social Work with an emphasis in child development. I have an M.S. in Social Work with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy. Most of my work experience (prior to kids) was with the public schools.

 

I don't have a lot of time to write at the moment but let's just say that even if your friend's points were completely valid (and I don't agree that they are), the logical choice would not be to send kids to public schools, which can be severely detrimental places for children's development. I highly recommend your friend read The Well-Adjusted Child: The Social Benefits of Homeschooling by Rachel Gathercole. I also very much agree with the recommendation of Hold Onto Your Kids. Great books.

 

The fact is that there is just a different perspective on parenting at play, different values altogether sometimes. My very base (and PC) response would be that what's normal does not always equal developmentally appropriate.

 

I do not think they are warped emotionally, but they are different.

 

Yes, good point. The Well-Adjusted Child discusses this.

 

 

 

The concerns of the profesional in the OP:

 

1) Show an acceptance of culturally sanctioned realities -not inherent, organic realities of children.

 

2) Assume a mutually exclusive relationship to homeschooling and authentic maturation.

 

3) Show ignorance about the wide variety of options, recreation, and extracurriculars available to and used by the majority of homeschooling families.

 

4) Assume that the mass education vehicle is the best - or perhaps only - way to socialize and mature children.

 

5) Fails to accurately name what homeschoolers might have as a disconnect with mass educated peers: knowledge of and interest in pop culture. This leads to the person in the OP elevating pop culture participation and disregarding the value of emphasis on other interests, or at least less of a focus on celebrity.

 

:iagree: 100%

 

Neufeld and Mate argue that we have an entire generation of adults who have not matured. He talks a bit in his presentations about parents who are children themselves - & he does not mean age. He's talking about peer-dependent adults, stuck in various levels of development, and trying to raise their own children.

 

Neufeld btw is a developmental psychologist.

 

I would just hand this person this book & say, read this & let's talk it about some more when you're done. I think they're misunderstanding "development" which is a very complicated issue

 

And in the academic realm, I think we've lost the meaning of what 'individuation' looks like (as well as what community and family look like....)

 

:iagree: I especially agree with what I bolded.

[Mrs Mungo]

I've only read the first post but the person to whom the OPer was speaking clearly assumes that the children never get the opportunity to work in groups in other situations, take instruction from adults in other situations or interact with peers in other situations. These are a false assumptions.

[lionfamily1999]

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

My sons will listen to the librarian, my parents, dh's mother, my sibs, their in-laws, etc. There's no shortage of adults wanting to boss them around, even though we hs ;)

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

1. Ps had better be a controlled environment too. I did not realize it was meant to be the equivalent of setting them free :001_huh:

2. We learn how to treat others and work together in all of our day to day activities. I really think the g/t environment is a matter of opinion.

 

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints.

Ds has friends. It is not as though I'm keeping him shackled beneath the house. I think this idea is laboring under the assumption that the kids are not allowed any sort of social life.

 

She said if you parent well during these stages they will eventually come back to what their parents taught them, but that they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves.

They're going to do that regardless. I really can't believe that it is possible to keep your kids from doing that. Really. You might lessen the chances of them doing that with drugs or sex, but all children are going to end up looking away from their parents for the answers.

 

Her opinion was that homeschooling does not provide enough opportunities for relationships with other adults and peers in order for the kids to accomplish these tasks. She said that homeschooled kids are being set up to be warped emotionally beings unless you do things to compensate for this. Sunday church and AWANA are not enough.

Well, I'm of the opinion that she's a blow hard. So, I guess we're even :)

 

She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

My cousin is new to college this year. He was informed he had emotional problems, because he disagreed with a certain prof and refused to say the prof was right. He didn't agree with whatever the p.a. was. He was his own person. Hmmm. Seems to me that it is really easy to diagnose someone with an emotional disorder, especially if they don't do what you want them too.

 

But I am concerned about the developmental milestones. Has anyone heard this before? Do any of you have a background in child development?

Looking forward to your comments.

Yes and no, except that I'm working on developing three right now (ba dump bump chhhh). I put this with the advice that says if you don't punish your children they'll be miscreants, if you do punish your children they will be miscreants, if you don't buy your pets lovies they'll be depressed, if you do buy them lovies you'll confuse them, and all the other personal opinions that are tossed around as sage advice from one who knows.

 

Whatever. Freedom, yada yada yada, my children, blah blah blah, opinions are like, merf merf merf. Everything would be so much better if we all took every "expert" given bit of advice. We'd all be so busy trying to comply we wouldn't have time to give any more advice :lol:

[Colleen in NS]

I have to admit her concerns did throw me a bit, but I'm sure that is because I am going through other problems right now.

 

Still, I did feel inadequate as a parent after speaking w/ her.

 

He can be a bit of a loner sometimes, but I think that is more due to some difficulties we've had at church and as a family (dh lost his job, marital problems).

 

I don't think homeschooling is a problem for you. :) Life is just rough for you right now, and that affects how you think or how others influence you sometimes. Let the conversation roll off your back, and live your life as it is right now. It's yours to live and you get to decide how things go in your family.:grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

Do you really want your kids playing the game though?

That is one of the reasons I'm planning on homeschooling through high school.

 

I don't, but it is a social handicap not to be able to fake it when necessary.

 

As to the rest of it, we all develop better when supported along at our own speed than when we are dumped into situations that require more than we are able to deal with. I am particularly fond of the quote in my sig line...

 

Rosie

Edited December 22, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[lionfamily1999]

I hope this post does not get buried because it raises some valid points. I can only speak as a parent of four. I do think homeschool kids are able to interact with adults well, but interacting with their peers it is a different story. It has been my experience thus far that interacting with peers, particularly pre-teen peers, poses the greatest challenge to my kids. I do not think they are warped emotionally, but they are different. Being accepted by others and playing the game, especially the girl game of exclusive, in-crowd types of stuff can be difficult to negotiate for a homeschooler even if that homeschooler has gone to after school classes for years with the same group of girls.

 

The point about Establishing their own point of view based on interactions with other adults in the role of a teacher is one that worth considering in depth. I personally find this argument compelling, yet when my sons attended public school I did not find the adults/teachers exemplary people. I wonder if private school offers more?

************************************************************

Peek is right about kids in general having a hard time adjusting to college--it isn't just homeschool kids.

 

How long do they need to relate to those particular peers though?

 

I've mulled over this quite a bit and it occured to me, a big problem I had in school was not being able to relate. My life was different. I was never hsed, I always went to public school, but... I have always loved reading, I have never found disrespect to be fun or cool, I've never wanted to disobey my parents, especially not for fun! I could never afford the trips or group dates, the clothes, and so many other things. I was different and miserable. College was completely different, socially. I had to take evening classes, I was with working adults and (crazy) I fit in. They were past the sheep stage and into the different is alright, and even interesting point of life.

 

So, I wouldn't worry too much about this. Dd doesn't fit it, she's never been hsed (although we a.s. French, now). We're working through it together, and you know what lightens the whole thing? Going to church and hanging out with the youth group of primarily young adults. They "get" her, they don't care that she is not like them, as a matter of fact, that is what they like about her.

[Heidi]

I don't, but it is a social handicap not to be able to fake it when necessary.

 

As to the rest of it, we all develop better when supported along at our own speed than when we are dumped into situations that require more than we are able to deal with. I am particularly fond of the quote in my sig line...

 

Rosie

 

I LOVE your sig! I completely agree. I never fit in at PS anyway. I had a few friends at church I would hang out with during my teenage years. What mattered to my high/middle school peers just never mattered to me. Finally when I got to college I was around people that were mostly out of the teeny-bopper/high school mindset and I fit in great and had a great time. To me high school was pure torture; I could not relate to my peers. I thought they were idiots. And looking back (and at their profiles on facebook)... I was right :)

 

The pre-teen/ teen years are hard no matter what. There's just no getting around it. Don't blame it on home school!

[dhudson]

As an adult who was both homeschooled and public schooled, I take issue with the Op's friend. I have managed jobs, school, church positions, leadership in many organizations and now manage a home and three children. I agree with many of the posters when they question what is the norm? I don't want my children to act like their social peers. I have met their social peers and am not impressed. I want them to be free and and independent thinkers who are able to make their own decisions. Not depend on their peer group to make their decisions for them. Will this make them outcasts? Possibly, but the teenage years do not last forever and I want them to be competent adults who change the world for the better. Generally speaking, those who change the world are not those controlled by their peer group, you have to be an individual with individual ideas to step out and make a difference.

 

Check out this link on the HSLDA website on Homeschooled Adults. http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/default.asp

[Rosie_0801]

. I think she was trying to say that homeschooling comes with a unique set of potential problems that a parent must be intentional in order to avoid. She said she is not against homeschooling, but when she works with homeschoolers she tries to work with them to put their children in groups settings. One example she used was team sports.

 

 

Yeah, of course it does. So does every child raising decision we make. *shrug* I can think of better places than team sports to learn to be part of a group, myself, but that is one option.

 

As for peer influence, I don't see how that could possibly be a good thing. I was a teen once. I remember what the other kids tried to influence me to do.

 

Yes. And I remember when my parents suddenly became concerned that I was turning out the way they'd brought me up and I had to go and find someone else sensible to depend on for the rest of my childhood (late teens to early twenties.) Thank goodness I did find other adult mentors. It's not nice to be punished for being sensible.

 

My life was different. I was never hsed, I always went to public school, but... I have always loved reading, I have never found disrespect to be fun or cool, I've never wanted to disobey my parents, especially not for fun! I could never afford the trips or group dates, the clothes, and so many other things. I was different and miserable. College was completely different, socially. I had to take evening classes, I was with working adults and (crazy) I fit in. They were past the sheep stage and into the different is alright, and even interesting point of life.

 

Funny how that works out, isn't it? I was the same...

 

Rosie

[Haiku]

Has anyone heard that hsing can be detrimental to a child's emotional dev?

 

Absolutely. By people who don't homeschool and generally know very little about it. These are the types of people who still think "socialization" is an issue for homeschoolers.

 

All the things that this woman said about how kids can't get these needs met if homeschooled run counter to how humans have lived for millenia. Her comments sound, to me, like a defense of how kids are forced to cope with schools and not any sort of informed opinion on what kids need to be emotionally healthy.

 

Tara

Edited December 22, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Joy at Home]

However, I don't want my dc playing the game. One of the BIG reasons I homeschool is to avoid the social and emotional cesspool called school. This isn't real life and I don't see evidence that *adult* interactions are positively impacted because someone survived junior high. As an adult, I don't play the "in-crowd" games very well either and just plain won't.

 

 

Soooo well said!!!

[Mommyfaithe]

I don't want to stir up any trouble, or upset anyone, but I am interested in serious informed discussion on this. I was talking to a well-educated (R.N. and counselor) Christian woman who said that she believes homeschool can be good for kids academically, but harmful to their emotional development as they get older. Please know that she spoke out of concern and not out of antagonism toward homeschoolers.

 

She said that some of the developmental goals for children or tasks they need to learn are:

 

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints.

 

She said if you parent well during these stages they will eventually come back to what their parents taught them, but that they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves.

 

Her opinion was that homeschooling does not provide enough opportunities for relationships with other adults and peers in order for the kids to accomplish these tasks. She said that homeschooled kids are being set up to be warped emotionally beings unless you do things to compensate for this. Sunday church and AWANA are not enough.

 

She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

 

The college concerns don't bother me, except saying they can't share or give and take. (I can't concentrate w/ noise and I grew up in public school & I think dorms are a strange living situation anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong w/ them per se).

 

But I am concerned about the developmental milestones. Has anyone heard this before? Do any of you have a background in child development?

Looking forward to your comments.

 

Thanks,

Sherri

 

 

Ummmmm...BULL cr@p....

 

I have 3 adult children who have been homeschooled and their public school counterparts were in WAY worse shape entering adulthood than my kids...while we experienced different forms of rebellion or disrespect...and even a pierced belly button, they were in NO WAY socially behind. If anything, the worst thing that happened to them is they saw their peers as somewhat jerky, immature and shallow. They did make some wonderful friends, but they were NOT in any way peer dependent. They were and are focused, mature, astute, well spoken, and well spoken of, respected adults in an adult world now...whereas many of their PS counterparts have dropped out, got involved in heavy drinking and drugging their first year wawy from home and have no real relationship with their siblings or parents. It was almost like the PS raised them to put up with their families until they could move out onto their own, but failed to prepare them to take care of themselves.

 

This person has an opinion...and you know what opinions are like...and we all have one.

 

My opinion of her opinion...is that she is just wrong.

 

~~Faithe

[Renee in NC]

Unfortunately, my DD~12 is finding herself right in the middle of this type of exclusive, game playing situation, and I am at a complete loss as to how to counsel her. Coming from a family of strong-willed individuals, she emphatically does not want to change herself to gain acceptance, yet she finds herself friendless in a group of girls she has gone to ballet class with for four years. It is painful to watch. At a performance rehearsal for the local Nutcracker production she sat alone while the other girls chatted and paired off. We've done the birthday/sleepover bridge building, but it did not result in a friendship of anything more that a "HI" at class. My DD is not ugly in temperament or looks, but this experience may have a lasting impact on how she perceives others. Worst of all she keeps asking "Why me? Why don't they like me?" I do not have an answer. If she went to school my intuition tells me this problem would be worse.

 

That is so hard! Your poor daughter!

 

I wish I had some advice, but that is a rough situation. Unfortunately, this is pretty normal in any circle it seems. Are there other places she can get involved/meet other girls?

[Mommyfaithe]

>>>>She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).>>>>>>

 

 

 

 

This is also a crock...If my kids can study with babies crying, phones ringing, siblings squabbling, dinner cooking, and every other possible distraction that exists, they can (and they have) lived just fine at the dorm. My kids have to learn to share, get along with those they live with 24/7 from day 1.

 

This lady, while i am hoping she means well, is terribly misinformed.

 

~~Faithe

[Rosie_0801]

. My kids have to learn to share, get along with those they live with 24/7 from day 1.

 

Heheh. I've always thought if you can get along with your relatives, you'll be able to cope with nearly anyone else.

 

:D

 

Rosie

[lionfamily1999]

 

Funny how that works out, isn't it? I was the same...

 

Rosie

That's what makes me think most of the socialization concerns are a big load of hooey. School issues are (thank God) temporary. The people that don't let go of the cliques and snobbery end up in a very limited circle as adults and the wierdos suddenly find lots of like minded people ;)

[Erica in PA]

I don't want to stir up any trouble, or upset anyone, but I am interested in serious informed discussion on this. I was talking to a well-educated (R.N. and counselor) Christian woman who said that she believes homeschool can be good for kids academically, but harmful to their emotional development as they get older. Please know that she spoke out of concern and not out of antagonism toward homeschoolers.

 

She said that some of the developmental goals for children or tasks they need to learn are:

 

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints.

 

She said if you parent well during these stages they will eventually come back to what their parents taught them, but that they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves.

 

Her opinion was that homeschooling does not provide enough opportunities for relationships with other adults and peers in order for the kids to accomplish these tasks. She said that homeschooled kids are being set up to be warped emotionally beings unless you do things to compensate for this. Sunday church and AWANA are not enough.

 

She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

 

The college concerns don't bother me, except saying they can't share or give and take. (I can't concentrate w/ noise and I grew up in public school & I think dorms are a strange living situation anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong w/ them per se).

 

But I am concerned about the developmental milestones. Has anyone heard this before? Do any of you have a background in child development?

Looking forward to your comments.

 

Thanks,

Sherri

 

It sounds to me that her thoughts are based on *what is normally done,* in our society, and then making the jump that those things are developmentally necessary. I.e. kids normally go to school at age 5, so it's convenient to say that is when they need to get away from Mom and take orders from other adults. In the teen years, kids start to look to their friends more than parents (probably because by that time traditionally schooled kids haven't spent much time with their parents in years), so she's saying that is the way it ought to be. Just because this is the way many in our society have decided to raise their children, doesn't mean that is the best way. I wouldn't let what she said bother me at all. I think we just need to keep our eyes on our own children, and make sure we are working with them in all areas of life, to ensure they will be equipped for whatever path they choose.

[amyable]

Her comments sound, to me, like a defense of how kids are forced to cope with schools and not any sort of informed opinion on what kids need to be emotionally healthy.

 

 

That's what I was thinking!

 

"By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults" -- so that they can deal with public school kindergarten

 

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment -- so that they can deal with public school kids... and her comment about home being such a "controlled environment" that it doesn't count is bogus! Home seems much less controlled. Hey, we can sit and read on the couch today instead of the dining room table! Or do math before OR after lunch! :lol: And there is little "control" in the joyful chaos of a family of 7. ;)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints -- no, this is important to "deal" with cliquish behavior and not be thought of as the Worst of All Teen Things: Different. :tongue_smilie:

 

It just sounds like these are not "goals" to be met in the best development of a child, but things that children have to put up with to get out of school in one piece and join the "real world"...you know, the world WE all live in and school our kids in. :)

[kalanamak]

I

 

She said that some of the developmental goals for children or tasks they need to learn are:

 

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

 

 

My son never, ever had separation anxiety and we had to keep him from running off with whoever he was playing with.

 

He goes to a gym class where the teacher tells me he is an obedient delight. I find he is much more obedient to others. And such table manners when we visit!!! Like nothing I get at home!

 

I never lived in a dorm. I'd rather have eaten glass. I met plenty of selfish kids in college. Usually the rich kids, BTW.

[hillfarm]

I haven't had time to read all the responses yet, but FWIW, my BIL teaches in the public school system in a neighboring state. He specializes in emotionally and physically handicapped children. He repeatedly compliments us on how well adjusted and bright our dd is (although she is his niece, so he may be biased:)).

 

One of the previous posters mentioned about how difficult it is for preteen girls to learn how to navigate the jungle of cliques and catty girls so prevalent in that age group. I totally agree, however can also add that as a public schooled girl, it was really tough for me to learn that and I was in the middle of it every school day. Some things are hard regardless of where your vantage point lies.

 

I also agree about the importance of developing a strong identity with a peer group, however for homeschooled children it can be the group of their choosing. Experts in subjects that interest them, a few friends of various ages, all sorts of people with whom they would like to identify. Who says a peer group has to be made of up identical, same-age people? IMO, it is great to surround yourself with people whose company you enjoy and that have characteristics you wish to emulate.

[katemary63]

The funny thing about this post is the comment about the college dorms. We will never try a college dorm again, because the public school kids who make up the majority of the dorm make it impossible to study because of the drugs and co-habitation going on. The dorm is not a dorm but a free for all party.

 

 

:iagree: 100% A college dorm now a days is just plain no place for a self respecting young adult with any morals what so ever. If they have to live away from home, get them an appartment. Most dorms are collections of pure debauchery.

Edited December 23, 2009 by katemary63

[La Condessa]

Public school was detrimental to my emotional and social development.

 

No, I am not joking.

[Peela]

"By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults" -- so that they can deal with public school kindergarten

 

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment -- so that they can deal with public school kids... and her comment about home being such a "controlled environment" that it doesn't count is bogus! Home seems much less controlled. Hey, we can sit and read on the couch today instead of the dining room table! Or do math before OR after lunch! :lol: And there is little "control" in the joyful chaos of a family of 7. ;)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints -- no, this is important to "deal" with cliquish behavior and not be thought of as the Worst of All Teen Things: Different. :tongue_smilie:

 

It just sounds like these are not "goals" to be met in the best development of a child, but things that children have to put up with to get out of school in one piece and join the "real world"...you know, the world WE all live in and school our kids in. :)

 

What amyable said.

Its more about being conditioned to fit into institutions from a nice young age, before they can think for themselves. Because if you wait too late, who would want to live like that? They might rebel. Get them while they're young. Then they even believe it's good for them.

[Donna]

Don't have time to read all the comments but here is my take...

 

I sent my oldest son to public school for the first time this year (8th grade) and his teachers all have commented on his self-motivation and love for learning saying they could tell he was homeschooled. He gets along well with his peers, interacts well with teachers, and is a leader in group situations. He was not "harmed" in the least by homeschooling.

 

His brother and sister who are still at home get along just as well with their peers in outside activities as they do the adults they communicate with during Irish sessions, orchestra, etc... All of their friends are public schooled.

 

I think those "milestones" she listed were just the old socialization argument that has time and time again been brought out against homeschooled kids. I read a study published, can't remember where or who did it...maybe someone else knows, where they studied adults and determined that homeschooled adults were more active in their communities, had fewer problems (addictions, etc), and other factors. It's been awhile since I read it so I can't go into detail on all the factors they looked at but the thing basically debunked the socialization myth.

 

Maybe if a parent completely isolates their child from the outside world, it could be harmful but the majority of homeschoolers today are involved in numerous outside activities and socialize with a variety of people of all ages.

 

Homeschoolers scare the NEA because they outperform public schooled kids and prove that you don't have to be a "teacher" to teach a child. So, if they can scare some of us into thinking our children are "harmed" if we make that choice, they will do that.

[Hikin' Mama]

from "experts" that I think are hogwash. Fortunately, there are still people with common sense who think for themselves.

[Nan in Mass]

I vehemently agree (if I could figure out how to spell vehemently) to both these statements. And your siggy quote.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

"...give and take environment..." LOL This sounds suspiciously like: "If you don't give me your lunchmoney I'm going to push you into that mud puddle and take it." Or: "If you don't learn to 'give as good as you get', you are going to have to take what the bullies dish out." Or: "You just have to learn to take it." Or: "You have to learn to take your punishment." I suppose it is good to learn to deal with this sort of thing, sigh, but if I were trying to convince people that school is good, I don't think I'd choose to use that statement as advertisement. If schools do such a good job of teaching people to share and to live-and-let-live, why isn't our country, where most people go to school, a paradise? And it tends to be the ones who don't accept these statements that change the world for the better. Buddha is extreme example of homeschooling in a sheltered environment and then being horrified by the state of the world and deciding to change it. I'm not advocating being extremely sheltered for one's entire childhood (Buddha was an exceptional person), but I do think that if one is damaged as a child, it takes more energy to survive as an adult, energy that could be better spent making the world a better place. And I think it is far, far harder to see that something is wrong when one grows up in an environment where adults don't stop the bad things from happening. I know schools try, and I know for some children, school is a life saver, the only place where adults behave at all consistently, but it is far from ideal in its current form.

-Nan

Edited December 23, 2009 by Nan in Mass

[Mommyfaithe]

Public school was detrimental to my emotional and social development.

 

No, I am not joking.

 

:iagree: :iagree:

 

 

Just a funny story:

 

First Day of College...DD was an art major...The kids are all in a circle and the prof asks them each to introduce themselves, say where they went to high school and a little about their family...

 

SO...since dd's last name begins w/ A she gets to go first...

 

My name is AA and I am the oldest of 7 siblings. I was homeschooled through High School...

 

Prof: And did that damage you completely?

 

DD: I don't think so....

 

Next kid:

 

My name is John Chan and I went to .....High School and it completely damaged me...

 

Next Kid:

 

My name is Jane Furman...and I went to ....High School and it damaged me for life....and so it went around the room.

 

 

Prof. was so impressed with DD's work ethic, maturity and intelligence that by the end of the year (only a few art prof's in this school) he was homeschooling his own son! LOL

 

So much for the emotional and social damage of homeschooled kids.

 

:lol:

 

~~Faithe

[creekland]

:iagree: :iagree:

 

 

Just a funny story:

 

First Day of College...DD was an art major...The kids are all in a circle and the prof asks them each to introduce themselves, say where they went to high school and a little about their family...

 

SO...since dd's last name begins w/ A she gets to go first...

 

My name is AA and I am the oldest of 7 siblings. I was homeschooled through High School...

 

Prof: And did that damage you completely?

 

DD: I don't think so....

 

Next kid:

 

My name is John Chan and I went to .....High School and it completely damaged me...

 

Next Kid:

 

My name is Jane Furman...and I went to ....High School and it damaged me for life....and so it went around the room.

 

 

Prof. was so impressed with DD's work ethic, maturity and intelligence that by the end of the year (only a few art prof's in this school) he was homeschooling his own son! LOL

 

So much for the emotional and social damage of homeschooled kids.

 

:lol:

 

~~Faithe

 

This sounds so much more like what we've experienced - though my oldest goes to college next year, so I don't have a story like that. My family is personally responsible (at least partially) for at least two other teachers and one college prof who have decided to homeschool their own kids after seeing mine in real life - and their experience in the schools/college with public schooled students.

 

I also know of 3 employers who have told me they'd much rather hire a homeschool grad or student due to the work ethic difference they've seen between homeschoolers and their public schooled peers.

[lionfamily1999]

"...give and take environment..." LOL This sounds suspiciously like: "If you don't give me your lunchmoney I'm going to push you into that mud puddle and take it." Or: "If you don't learn to 'give as good as you get', you are going to have to take what the bullies dish out." Or: "You just have to learn to take it." Or: "You have to learn to take your punishment." I suppose it is good to learn to deal with this sort of thing, sigh, but if I were trying to convince people that school is good, I don't think I'd choose to use that statement as advertisement. If schools do such a good job of teaching people to share and to live-and-let-live, why isn't our country, where most people go to school, a paradise? And it tends to be the ones who don't accept these statements that change the world for the better. Buddha is extreme example of homeschooling in a sheltered environment and then being horrified by the state of the world and deciding to change it. I'm not advocating being extremely sheltered for one's entire childhood (Buddha was an exceptional person), but I do think that if one is damaged as a child, it takes more energy to survive as an adult, energy that could be better spent making the world a better place. And I think it is far, far harder to see that something is wrong when one grows up in an environment where adults don't stop the bad things from happening. I know schools try, and I know for some children, school is a life saver, the only place where adults behave at all consistently, but it is far from ideal in its current form.

-Nan

I wondered what that meant. I know you were joking, but I have to think... you may have hit the nail on the head.

[Sherri in MI]

Certainly it is normal for children to seek out their peers. However, in traditional cultures there were cultural norms that pointed the way toward adulthood. Adults were to be emulated. Adulthood was a goal. Maturity was taught and it was expected that growth toward maturity was desirable. So in parallel with the peer focus there was a recognized set of expectations that all had for themselves--characterized by early assumption of responsibility and by the respecting of adulthood/maturity. Peer focus was common and accepted, but was not taken all that seriously.

 

And that's how I regard homeschooling. Peer focus is normal, but it's not what leads to maturity. Working with and knowing mature people is what leads to maturity. Assumption of true responsibility is what leads to maturity.

 

And lots of adult-aged people in our culture NEVER GET THERE. It's culturally undesirable to be adult, which I find both interesting and alarming, and do not care to emulate in my own family.

 

Homeschooling gives DD exposure to more adults, without losing her opportunities to have strong peer relationships. Homeschooling gives us a chance to talk about responsibilities and for her to take them on. It gives her the time to do other things than just study and socialize. It has given her a spiritual and mental maturity that I hope will serve her well going forward. It has also given her many, many friends of various ages, and avocations that provide a satisfying alternative to shopping and screen time--the most common pursuits of her public school peers. She is better socialized and individuated than most of the 13 year old school children I know, thanks to our homeschooling.

 

:iagree:

 

Our culture seems to have lost the idea that the ultimate goal for children is to eventually become mature responsible adults! Our culture expects children to behave, but then adolescents are expected to live for fun (and self) and be wild and this idea even extends into the twenties!

[Lizzie in Ma]

I'm sorry,but, while I think this woman wanted to not sound anti-homeschool, she did a fine job of bringing up all the usual concerns and attempting to mask it with her "professional opinion".

 

:iagree::iagree:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

WildIris,

while I'm sorry your DD is going through this, on the other hand, I'm glad that my kids aren't the only ones with social problems. My own DD is very social, but at age 9, she's starting to feel "pushed away" from her gym-mates. I am actually considering sending her to high school (which starts in grade 7 over here) when she gets there. It's a private catholic high school, from which I graduated eons ago.

 

My son is a borderline Asperger kid. I don't know if he would be able to get an official diagnostics. About half the doctors (including a neurologist) say he's got the syndrome, the other half (including his ped) doesn't know. Anyway, he does have some of the issues, especially the social ones. He would never fit in. And yes, people will point at him as a proof of unsocialised homeschoolers, without knowing the underlying reasons.

Sigh.

[Laurie4b]

I don't want to stir up any trouble, or upset anyone, but I am interested in serious informed discussion on this. I was talking to a well-educated (R.N. and counselor) Christian woman who said that she believes homeschool can be good for kids academically, but harmful to their emotional development as they get older. Please know that she spoke out of concern and not out of antagonism toward homeschoolers.

 

She may have indeed spoken out of concern--but also out of ignorance

She said that some of the developmental goals for children or tasks they need to learn are:

 

This is what she's been taught--that doesn't mean it's all true

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

Controlled environment? Ha! I wish... Sure--kids need to be able to separate from their moms and 5 seems like a good estimate of when that might be. It doesn't mean they need to separate for a whole day. I've taught Sunday school for more than a decade and have never seen a kiddo who couldn't take orders from another adult. That doesn't mean that there aren't some who are disobedient. Even the disobedient ones do take most orders fine. Homeschoolers were not over-represented among the disobedient

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints. I think this is actually false in reality. Their peer relationships should certainly accelerate during this period, but I think even the professional literature now is saying that the most important relationship is with parents, and those who think otherwise do so to the detriment of their teens.

 

She said if you parent well during these stages they will eventually come back to what their parents taught them, but that they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves.

 

Absolutely true thta they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves. Kids do this in homeschool families, too.

Her opinion was that homeschooling does not provide enough opportunities for relationships with other adults and peers in order for the kids to accomplish these tasks. She said that homeschooled kids are being set up to be warped emotionally beings unless you do things to compensate for this. Sunday church and AWANA are not enough. This is where she shows her ignorance of most homeschooled families. Most homeschooled families don't need to "compensate" for anything because their kids are not locked up in a closet to be let out only for church events.

 

She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

Translation: when people refer to "several" anon. sources, you can bet they mean two.

For the sake of argument, let's say her observations have been true of some homeschooled kids. Did homeschool cause those things or was the child homeschooled because of those things? Those characteristics would be descriptive of someone on the autism spectrum, for instance. If you have a child with, say, Asperger's, you may elect to homeschool her to give her the best possible opportunities, but homeschooling cannot always counteract every manifestation of the issues. I also know a few homeschool families out of tons who were just odd and their kids are too. Would their kids have been magically cool if they went to ps? Frankly, I'd predict that their kids would still be kind of odd. However, I know MANY homeschooled kids who are now in college or adults and who are wonderful, wonderful human beings. (Just like I know many ps'd kids who are wonderful human beings!)

The college concerns don't bother me, except saying they can't share or give and take. (I can't concentrate w/ noise and I grew up in public school & I think dorms are a strange living situation anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong w/ them per se).

 

But I am concerned about the developmental milestones. Has anyone heard this before? Do any of you have a background in child development?

Looking forward to your comments. I have two master's degrees and worked in children's mental health for years.

 

Thanks,

Sherri

 

Don't obsess about what she said. Do what you would have done anyway, unless you were planning to keep your kids locked in a room letting them out only for church activities!

[Sherri in MI]

Public school was detrimental to my emotional and social development.

 

No, I am not joking.

 

:iagree:Mine too!

[Sherri in MI]

:iagree: :iagree:

 

 

Just a funny story:

 

First Day of College...DD was an art major...The kids are all in a circle and the prof asks them each to introduce themselves, say where they went to high school and a little about their family...

 

SO...since dd's last name begins w/ A she gets to go first...

 

My name is AA and I am the oldest of 7 siblings. I was homeschooled through High School...

 

Prof: And did that damage you completely?

 

DD: I don't think so....

 

Next kid:

 

My name is John Chan and I went to .....High School and it completely damaged me...

 

Next Kid:

 

My name is Jane Furman...and I went to ....High School and it damaged me for life....and so it went around the room.

 

 

Prof. was so impressed with DD's work ethic, maturity and intelligence that by the end of the year (only a few art prof's in this school) he was homeschooling his own son! LOL

 

So much for the emotional and social damage of homeschooled kids.

 

:lol:

 

~~Faithe

 

Faithe, I love it! :001_smile: Thanks for sharing this story!

[phathui5]

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

 

Ok, I'm really not seeing how "learning how to take orders from other adults" is a developmental goal.

[Sherri in MI]

Oh my gosh! I have so enjoyed reading your responses! They were encouraging, informative, and humorous (humor always helps!). I started to respond to some of them, but it started to get out of hand. I am not good at responding to multiple posts but here goes:

 

Whoever said what I'm going through has nothing to do with homeschooling is correct. There are other issues going on in our family and homeschooling, if anything, though more stressful on me in some ways, is generally less stressful on our family than school would be. The flexibility has been a blessing during this difficult time.

 

I appreciated hearing from those with well-adjusted adult children who were homeschooled. It was very encouraging - thanks!

 

It definitely helped to hear opinions that differed from my friend's and I appreciated the book recommendations. I can't wait to read them. I realize I need to be more prepared to "defend" our decision (if only to myself) and "educate" others who are unfamiliar with homeschooling.

 

And thanks for the link to Dr. Brian Ray's research. I though HSLDA might have something on this, but I didn't have time to check yet.

 

I loved Faithe's story about her dd's art class prof!

 

I went to public school my whole life and I feel it was bad for me, in general, emotionally and socially, depending on the year. Because of my Christian values I was always different, even though I had a group of school friends that I got along with, I wasn't doing the same things they were outside of school. While I felt like a geek at the time, in retrospect, I wasn't at all. I just wasn't cool by their standards and I wasn't as tough and sophisticated or worldly as the other kids. In school that was a bad thing. The adults always liked me and always had a few nice friends from church.

 

I've really enjoyed this discussion! Thanks!

 

Blessings,

Sherri

[Tea Time]

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints.

 

 

I'm so sorry I don't have time to read all the post this morning (will definitely have to get back to that later). The developmental goals your friend provided are subjective. Goals can be set by anyone for any purpose. Better to have lots of people setting lots of goals than one single entity providing goals for everyone. That is likely to serve a single interest and that interest is usually to amass power.

 

In these discussion with people, I like to turn it around. Public schools take your money to do what they do. They answer to you for what they are doing. It is not so the other way around. They have no interest in what homeschoolers are doing because they are not paying for it. We should hold them accountable, not the other way around. And when they can succeed at the goals that we set for them, then maybe people will stop homeschooling and send their children back. I won't be holding my breath as I do not see how it is possible to provide the type of education described below in an institutional environment. It is my belief that these are not and never were the goals of public education.

 

**********************

 

A few years back one of the schools at Harvard, perhaps the School of Government, issued some advice to its students on planning a career in the new international economy it believed was arriving. It warned sharply that academic classes and professional credentials would count for less and less when measured against real world training. Ten qualities were offered as essential to successfully adapting to the rapidly changing world of work. See how many of those you think are regularly taught in the schools of your city or state:

 

 

 

 

1) The ability to define problems without a guide.

2) The ability to ask hard questions which challenge prevailing assumptions.

3) The ability to work in teams without guidance.

4) The ability to work absolutely alone.

5) The ability to persuade others that your course is the right one.

6) The ability to discuss issues and techniques in public with an eye to reaching decisions about policy.

7) The ability to conceptualize and reorganize information into new patterns.

8) The ability to pull what you need quickly from masses of irrelevant data.

9) The ability to think inductively, deductively, and dialectically.

 

 

10) The ability to attack problems heuristically.

[KrissiK]

I am not an expert by any means, except having taught jr. high science for 11 years in a Christian school. But, one thing I do know is that the human psyche is so complex that a person cannot point to any one thing (whether it be their educational background, the way they were raised, religion, health, anything) and say, "That's the reason they turned out the way they did." Homeschooled children can turn out either great or rotten, but I doubt it's because they were homeschooled. It's probably because of the kind of person they are to begin with. PS educated kids the same thing. You hear stories of children raised in horrific environments being able to rise above all that and become successful, and stories of children with every advantage turning out to be total losers. Psychology, while helpful, is not a hard science and should not be used to guide our every move in child raising.

[Remudamom]

It's been through the horse people.

[elizam]

Do you really want your kids playing the game though?

That is one of the reasons I'm planning on homeschooling through high school.

 

AMEN! I've seen the difference and I'm sticking to my guns. No PS. Too big of a risk.

[Sherri in MI]

I am not an expert by any means, except having taught jr. high science for 11 years in a Christian school. But, one thing I do know is that the human psyche is so complex that a person cannot point to any one thing (whether it be their educational background, the way they were raised, religion, health, anything) and say, "That's the reason they turned out the way they did." Homeschooled children can turn out either great or rotten, but I doubt it's because they were homeschooled. It's probably because of the kind of person they are to begin with. PS educated kids the same thing. You hear stories of children raised in horrific environments being able to rise above all that and become successful, and stories of children with every advantage turning out to be total losers. Psychology, while helpful, is not a hard science and should not be used to guide our every move in child raising.

 

:iagree:

 

Thanks for saying that!

[Nan in Mass]

Can you elaborate on #9 and #10?

[Tea Time]

Can you elaborate on #9 and #10?

 

I'm guessing that you are talking about the #9 and #10 in my post?

 

The basic idea is that children should learn to reason using the inductive method (particular facts to general conclusions), the deductive method (general observations to particular causes), and dialectically (reasoning using the previous methods to arrive at the truth). Children should eventually learn to create heuristic models to efficiently solve problems. These are skills that can be learned in a large variety of ways, and there is no one-size-fits-all that must be employed to achieve them. In fact, the more diverse our education system, the more likely that more children would have them; and then the more likely they would be able to bring these to group dynamics in creative ways thus making group interaction much more meaningful. This is all part of what everyone generally thinks of as “critical thinking†skills, but frankly, I found it lacking in my own education and do not really think it is a major goal of public schooling anymore. Crowd control and maintaining status quo are pretty much the main goals I see at this point when I look at the large scale.

 

This list is from the political science department of Harvard, so it represents one set of goals. The point of my post is that goals are a subjective idea. They represent the purposes of the goal setter. Therefore, this is not the same as developmental goals that are natural and expected through normal growth. It is disingenuous to say that goals imposed by a culture or even more so, a school system, are anything like ones related to healthy, normal growth we see in infants and toddlers such as turning over, crawling, walking, and verbalizing at certain ages. Being able to “separate from the mother and take orders from a stranger at age 5†is NOT A DEVELOPMENTAL GOAL. Ask a mother polar bear if she thinks her cub should be separated from her and take orders from someone else. I don’t think so. Not until she says so… or the cub says so.

 

The other point in my post is that before someone takes the time and effort to critique homeschooling, they need to remember that homeschoolers are paying for a public education that they obviously do not find attractive enough to make use of. Maybe the problem lies there.

[lionfamily1999]

I went to public school my whole life and I feel it was bad for me, in general, emotionally and socially, depending on the year. Because of my Christian values I was always different, even though I had a group of school friends that I got along with, I wasn't doing the same things they were outside of school. While I felt like a geek at the time, in retrospect, I wasn't at all. I just wasn't cool by their standards and I wasn't as tough and sophisticated or worldly as the other kids. In school that was a bad thing. The adults always liked me and always had a few nice friends from church.

 

Whenever people say, but look at what they're missing, remember what you posted here. Whenever they try to feed you some line about how they need high school and middle school jerks in order to learn how to function in the real world, remember what you posted. Is there anything in "real life" that is like high school? You might run into a spot of it here or there, but now you're an adult and free to leave. That's quite a bit different than the situation in public school, imo.

 

:grouphug:

[Dobela]

I don't want to stir up any trouble, or upset anyone, but I am interested in serious informed discussion on this. I was talking to a well-educated (R.N. and counselor) Christian woman who said that she believes homeschool can be good for kids academically, but harmful to their emotional development as they get older. Please know that she spoke out of concern and not out of antagonism toward homeschoolers.

 

She said that some of the developmental goals for children or tasks they need to learn are:

 

By age 5- learn to separate from Mom and take orders from other adults;

 

Grades 3 to 5: learn to get along in groups in a give and take environment (working w/ siblings at home is different because it is such a controlled environment)

 

Pre-teen to teen: turn more to peers than parents. This is important in order to work our their own viewpoints.

 

She said if you parent well during these stages they will eventually come back to what their parents taught them, but that they need to work through what they really think and believe themselves.

 

Her opinion was that homeschooling does not provide enough opportunities for relationships with other adults and peers in order for the kids to accomplish these tasks. She said that homeschooled kids are being set up to be warped emotionally beings unless you do things to compensate for this. Sunday church and AWANA are not enough.

 

She also said she has spoken to several college counselors who say that homeschool graduates do very well academically, but have some social/emotional difficulties in college: they don't know how to give and take; don't know how to live in dorms; can't study with the noise in dorms and on campus (must have quiet to concentrate; and can't share with others (outside the family).

 

The college concerns don't bother me, except saying they can't share or give and take. (I can't concentrate w/ noise and I grew up in public school & I think dorms are a strange living situation anyway, but I don't think there's anything wrong w/ them per se).

 

But I am concerned about the developmental milestones. Has anyone heard this before? Do any of you have a background in child development?

Looking forward to your comments.

 

Thanks,

Sherri

When I was a public school teacher in the 1990s I thought homeschooling was pretty closely equal to abuse and I was very, very opposed. I could name several children who had been homeschooled and homeschooled badly, in abusive situations, or by less than interested parents. The kids would re-enter school several years behind, or be so emotionally crippled that they could barely function in the school. Yes, we had students that had emotional problems and academic problems that had always been in ps, but then we looked for other contributing factors. If the child was homeschooled, that was pretty much the only justification we had looked for.

 

It wasn't until much later that I made a huge realization- the only kids I was seeing as a ps teacher that had been homeschooled were the failures. I was only seeing the worst part of homeschooling. We joined a church with many families who homeschooled and I discovered that the reason I never knew that there were so many more successful families is because the successful ones don't always return to school.

 

For the college professors who see problems with homeschoolers and the counselor who sees problems with homeschooling - or sees it as more negative than not- my guess is that they have seen more negatives than the positive. The successful kids that happen to have been homeschooled will blend in, or be achievers, or something. They don't wear signs. My guess is that the profs and this RN see just as many, and most likely more, kids with the same issues that were not homeschooled but haven't made the mental connection that they are only seeing the failures and that is skewing their hypothesis.

[lakotajm]

This sounds to me like goals written based on...public schools. This viewpoint is culture- and group-schooling-specific.

It goes even further. I would say it is specifically designed to facilitate the efficient public school classroom.

 

I'd bet parents of children centuries years ago would be horrified or just plain puzzled by these goals....turn to peers more than parents? :confused:

 

Yikes!:iagree:

 

Children can learn to take orders from other adults even if they are homeschooled. Grandparents, neighbors, friends' parents, teachers in homeschool classes, coaches, librarians, Sunday school teachers, volunteeer coordinators. I am tired of this lame argument getting trotted out. We don't lock our children in boxes, for crying out loud.

 

I do have my own personal concerns in this department, though. my almost 5 year old is aggravatingly shy and often will not go to or stay in her Sunday School classroom. That would be ok if my husband could take her (he is often gone); I am a teacher for the upper grades. It may just be her personality, but I do wonder...she is the same at homeschool co-op or most anywhere.

 

School is also a controlled environment. So is soccer, ballet, a play date, karate, language class and even play at the neighborhood park. Public-schooled children aren't dropped onto a deserted island and left to fend for themselves.

 

Yes, and the social traits she spoke of are designed for controlled environments. So I could see where there are differences that would become obvious at college level. I have had difficulties in this controlled environment vs. Mom's-on-her-own, good luck, especially when I tried to implement Montessori at home and it did not translate well. But eventually, they will have to learn to interact in controlled environments, at least to some extent. We owe it to them to help them do this on a limited basis.

 

Children are perfectly capable of working on developing their viewpoints with adults they love and trust, including their parents. In fact, I'd say it's preferable.

 

I'd be curious as to how many college counselors she's spoken with. How many is "several"? And are these counselors talking to all previously homeschooled college students or just the ones with problems?

 

Cat

 

Interesting, nonetheless.

 

Lakota