If you had serious 4th degree tearing during labor...

[Karenathome]

what did you do for pain management and recovery? Any advice? My sister just had her first baby and tore horribly. They had to call a specialist to stitch her up! She is pretty miserable...

 

Thanks,

Karen

[AuntieM]

Ooo, poor thing! I had what I think was a third degree episiotomy(?) with first ds, involving quite a few stitches. Probably not as bad as your sis's. The most helpful thing for me was sitz baths. I am a bit foggy on this, but I seem to remember ice packs at the hospital? I think that was while I still was under the effect of the epidural...

 

Honestly, I think the c-section I had for the following pregnancy was a quicker recovery... Just tell her to take her time about getting up and around and doing too much too soon.

[Wyndie]

Oh gosh, I hate to hear that. Lots of sitz baths and keeping the area clean so it can heal is very important. I don't remember being able to manage the pain and discomfort, the only relief I found was in the sitz baths.

 

Your poor sister :grouphug:

[HeatherLynn]

I don't remember completely (it's been so many years). I had some bactine spray I think. I also had some red stuff I put in a water bottle with warm water and squirted on there over the toilet. The combo of the spray and that red stuff made it so much better. I tore horribly with my first and the second I had shoulder dystocia and tore me so bad I had to have a specialist too.

[Amy in TX]

b/c it was a forceps delivery. I literally couldn't sit for about two weeks. High doses of Ibuprofen are good, if her doctor approves.

 

After one of my other babies, the hospital nurses put Tuck's pads (for hemorrhoids) on my tender area. I wore them inside whatever maxipad type thing I was using, next to my skin. They were wonderfully soothing. She might ask her doctor about that.

 

So sorry for your sister, and hope she feels better soon!

[dirty ethel rackham]

I had a 3rd degree and it was pretty awful. Tucks, ice packs and dermoplast spray are what got me through the first 2 weeks. I literally COULD NOT SIT for 2 weeks. I had to learn to nurse lying down and eat all my meals standing up. Lots of sitz baths. If she can find a midwife who has a good herbal concoction for the sitz bath, that can help.

 

It is EXTREMELY important to avoid constipation. So, while vicodin may be good for pain relief, it can cause constipation, which can ruin the repair (I am still living with that situation 15 years later.) Stools should be very soft - not to be gross - but like pudding.

 

She should ask (or should I say, INSIST) on a PT evaluation after about 12 weeks postpartum. Although it is usually a good idea to do kegels very soon after birth to help with blood flow and healing, it might not be a good idea after an anal sphincter repair. After my 2nd repair 5 years ago, I was told NOT to do any kegels until the area was healed. While kegels are a fantastic exercise, due to the nature of the anal sphincter, contracting it put stress on the repair site. As it was explained to me, the anal sphincter is a circular muscle. When it contracts, it contracts all over. If there is a weak spot in the muscle, the contraction will pull at the weak spot and possibly damage it further.

 

If, at any time - even years down the road, she feels that things aren't healing right, she should speak up!! I was too embarrassed and intimidated and I suffered for years.

 

One more thing ... for nursing, since it is so difficult to get comfortable in a sitting position, I would ask for an in-home visit by a LLL leader or lactation consultant right away to make sure that she is getting a good latch. I did not ask for help and I was sore, cracked and bleeding within days because I had difficulty getting a decent latch laying down. Getting help early can reduce pain in the long run!

[Kay in Cal]

I think Ellen had some great tips.

 

Dermoplast spray was the best thing ever. I think they gave me some when I was discharged... if not, I'd buy some right quick. Keep the ice packs coming. After a week or so, I was mostly using the Tucks pads. I would sometimes soak them in witchhazel first (I think they have some on them, I'd put more). Stings like bugger-all when they first go on, but really helps after a few minutes. And take those stool-softener pills!

 

Also tell her to keep in mind... this too shall pass. It will get better eventually. I tore substantially with my first labor (because I labor too quick and hard, basically--short but powerful!), but the second was not a problem. I had forgotten how painful that time was--until I read your post and Ellens great advice brought it all back to me. Ouch.

[Sugarfoot]

That was my exact situation with my first son, too. I agree with what everyone else said. My 2nd child was induced a bit early to try to avoid a repeat of DS, and I *only* had second degree tears with her. My 3rd and 4th were C-sections, which is now the protocol for someone who's had 4th degree lacerations. I thought long and hard about it, because I really didn't want to do a Cesarian unless it was absolutely necessary. Honestly, recovering from a C-section was 1000 times easier than recovering from 4th degree lacerations.

 

Unfortunately, I still feel the effects of my oldest child's delivery nearly everyday. He's 13. I truly hope her recovery is quick and complete.

[AuntieM]

How could I have forgotten the dermaplast spray?!!! Yes, that was probably the only thing that kept me able to move around. Also like Ellen, I remember standing up a lot....

[ElizabethB]

What Ellen said.

 

My daughter got so used to nursing lying down, she didn't learn to nurse sitting up until she was 2 or 3 months old, she just wouldn't, no matter what I tried or how hungry she was. I felt odd whenever we visited friends' houses for dinner and needed to nurse, I would quietly request to use a bed to nurse, and we only went to friends' houses with children or really good friends.

 

I had some kind of a blow up tube thing, a tiny inner tube thingy, that I could sit on long enough to eat, other than that I didn't sit down much.

[Amira]

I've had 2nd, 3rd, and 4th degree tearing with my three births and am well-versed in recovering after childbirth. Honestly, I can't imagine that a C-section would be worse. However, there are so many variables that can affect how long it takes to heal. My 4th-degree tear was actually far easier to heal from than the 2nd or 3rd.

 

Anyway, it took months for me to heal after my last baby because I ended up with vaginitis at the site of the tear. It was awful. I finally went back to the doctor and she gave me some steroid cream (that blessed cream) and a prescription for estrogen (which did not ruin my milk supply, contrary to what you might read online). I didn't really get back to normal till my period returned more than a year later.

 

So, in addition to all the great advice here, if she's not feeling pretty much fine by 6 weeks, she should talk to her doctor. I'm not just talking about being about to sit, but also to have intercourse, put in a tampon, etc. Most of the time a woman's body will heal well, but not always.

[Spy Car]

I'm not here, I'm not reading the other posts.

 

But why, oh why, are doctors letting women tear and/or cutting them? It makes my blood boil :glare:

 

We were blessed (blessed) to have the best obstetrician when my wife delivered. She naturally was nervous, and asked about the chances she'd need an episiotomy.

 

Our physician looked at us somewhat gravely and said, "I've never cut a woman during my practice, and your wife will not be the first".

 

I was impressed!

 

I was more impressed when I witnessed why he could make the claim.

 

During the delivery he stopped things from time to time, and ever so gently pulled back and eased tissues manually. It was so incredibly gentle. It look a little longer, a few extra minutes, but my wife did not tear. And I am still grateful for that.

 

We had family members with us in the large birthing room in the hospital. And the women were astounded at the gentle techniques of our OB. They'd never seen anything like it. Perhaps it's not usual, but why?

 

No woman should tear needlessly. Or be cut needlessly. And it's a shame too many doctors seem to want to pull a baby out a fast as possible, and that new mothers pay the price. I am "no expert" here but I've seen a better way. And I know it made all the difference in the world.

 

Bill (who is going back into "hiding")

[Ibbygirl]

I'm not here, I'm not reading the other posts.

 

But why, oh why, are doctors letting women tear and/or cutting them? It makes my blood boil :glare:

 

We were blessed (blessed) to have the best obstetrician when my wife delivered. She naturally was nervous, and asked about the chances she'd need an episiotomy.

 

Our physician looked at us somewhat gravely and said, "I've never cut a woman during my practice, and your wife will not be the first".

 

I was impressed!

 

I was more impressed when I witnessed why he could make the claim.

 

During the delivery he stopped things from time to time, and ever so gently pulled back and eased tissues manually. It was so incredibly gentle. It look a little longer, a few extra minutes, but my wife did not tear. And I am still grateful for that.

 

We had family members with us in the large birthing room in the hospital. And the women were astounded at the gentle techniques of our OB. They'd never seen anything like it. Perhaps it's not usual, but why?

 

No woman should tear needlessly. Or be cut needlessly. And it's a shame too many doctors seem to want to pull a baby out a fast as possible, and that new mothers pay the price. I am "no expert" here but I've seen a better way. And I know it made all the difference in the world.

 

Bill (who is going back into "hiding")

 

 

Wow!! That's awesome!! You're probably going to get 100's of PM's now for your wife's ob's name. :D I wish my ob's had been that way!

[Carrie12345]

My 4th delivery was my only tear, and it was a real doozy. Ds's heart rate plummeted when I was about 8cms. My mw got me out of the tub and told me to get the baby out NOW, so I did in about 3 minutes. I chose tearing over a c-section!

 

Squirt bottles (I alternated ice cold and lukewarm water, depending on how I was feeling), Dermaplast, Tucks and ice packs. It definitely took a long time to feel 100%, but I got there!

[Blueridge]

Oh bless her heart! Another suggestion for you are products sold by Shonda Parker. She wrote several great books and is now also selling products like a natural sitz bath and oils for inflamed tissue that are very helpful. I pray for a speedy recovery for her! http://www.naturallyhealthy.org/intimatesolutions.php

[EKS]

I used Vicodin for the first few days. I should have used it longer. I had a 4th degree tear with my first one and a 3rd degree with my second and you know how in the pregnancy books they always lump the two together and then say that you don't need to worry about them because so few people have them? Well. A 4th degree is *way* different than a 3rd degree.

 

It took me at least a few weeks to stop hurting. I still have lingering issues from it. Make sure she has a lot of help with the baby because (I see now) that it is similar to recovering from surgery. I hope she feels better soon.

[amy g.]

Dermoplast spray is the only way I survived.

 

I did end up having more surgery to repair the repair 6 weeks later. Since scar tissue is not as elastic as normal tissue, and I have a whole lot of scar tissue, I needed an episiotomy with my subsequent births. Even the midwife who does not believe they are ever necessary gave up and agreed I needed one.

 

Recovering from the episiotomy was a real non issue after having 3 third degree tears with my first.

[Lisa in Jax]

Zinc is essential to wound healing. So, have her look into taking a good zinc supplement for a few weeks. A good multivitamin is also a good idea. She'll need lots of nutritional support to heal well. She may want to be careful with iron b/c it can be constipating, but antioxidants and minerals can be very helpful.

 

Hope she's feeling better soon,

 

Lisa

[swellmomma]

Wow, poor thing, that sounds so painful.

 

I only had a 2nd degree tear with my 2nd (vacuum extraction), which took longer to heal than my previous section did, I can't even imagine a 4th degree tear. It took me a good 6 months to heal from that one and other than stitches I did not need further repair.

 

I hope she finds some relief from the pain and heals quickly so she can get on with just being a happy mommy.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Dermaplast, Tucks/WitchHazel Pads and if she has a spare Boppy pillow you might try sitting on that. (Experiment with the best positioning.)

[dirty ethel rackham]

 

But why, oh why, are doctors letting women tear and/or cutting them? It makes my blood boil :glare:

 

We were blessed (blessed) to have the best obstetrician when my wife delivered. She naturally was nervous, and asked about the chances she'd need an episiotomy.

 

Our physician looked at us somewhat gravely and said, "I've never cut a woman during my practice, and your wife will not be the first".

 

I was impressed!

 

I was more impressed when I witnessed why he could make the claim.

 

During the delivery he stopped things from time to time, and ever so gently pulled back and eased tissues manually. It was so incredibly gentle. It look a little longer, a few extra minutes, but my wife did not tear. And I am still grateful for that.

 

We had family members with us in the large birthing room in the hospital. And the women were astounded at the gentle techniques of our OB. They'd never seen anything like it. Perhaps it's not usual, but why?

 

No woman should tear needlessly. Or be cut needlessly. And it's a shame too many doctors seem to want to pull a baby out a fast as possible, and that new mothers pay the price. I am "no expert" here but I've seen a better way. And I know it made all the difference in the world.

 

Bill (who is going back into "hiding")

 

Bill, unfortunately, your wife's OB is the exception rather than the rule. Even though there has been evidence for over 20 years that routine episiotomies cause more harm than good, there are still plenty of OBs who do them fairly routinely on first time moms.

 

Part of the problem is doctors and hospitals that have procedures in place that make it more difficult for a woman to move around, choose labor positions that may be both less painful and promoting good positioning of the baby as well procedures and positioning for 2nd stage that are not positive physiologically. They set up a situation that makes it more difficult to birth a baby. Then, whether necessary or not, they rush in to get the baby out by either cutting an episiotomy and/or using instruments (usually vacuum these days) to pull the baby out. The combination of episiotomy and instrument delivery is responsible for 90% of the serious lacerations that occur (3rd and 4th degree.) In reference to another thread about birth place, this is why many women choose out of hospital births - to avoid the interventions and policies that make these types of births more likely to happen. My experience is why I became a childbirth educator and why I chose to have my 3rd baby at home.

[Doran]

I'm a little sheepish about admitting how foggy my own memory is of the birth of my oldest, now almost 15. Suffice it to say that my dream of a natural birth did not turn out to be so. Among other procedures, I was given an episiotomy and then, due to the doctor's "help" with forceps, I tore well past that. I missed being a 4th degree tear by millimeters, and boy did recovery hurt. I don't remember using Dermaplast, but I do know I went through a carton of Tucks type pads, which I needed fore and aft. :001_huh: And, sitz baths were invaluable as was the perinal "squirt bottle" which, I think was just filled with warm water. I also found it useful to sit on a donut-type pillow or rolled and circled beach towel. I got good at tucking one leg underneath me and sitting bent kneed while leaning against the back of the chair or couch for support (does that make any sense at all??), so that I wasn't putting so much pressure right on the most tender areas.

 

Mostly, I wanted to post here to encourage her for her next delivery, if there is one. I had a lot of scar tissue and residual pain from the birth of my first, but the second born (and last) was completely natural and tear free. Along with the fact that my body was just more relaxed and prepared the second time around, I attribute the ease of the second to perineal massage. Anyone can Google this for more information. That, and the warm compresses used by my midwife the second time around I think made all the difference.

 

Best wishes to your sister!

[Spy Car]

Bill, unfortunately, your wife's OB is the exception rather than the rule. Even though there has been evidence for over 20 years that routine episiotomies cause more harm than good, there are still plenty of OBs who do them fairly routinely on first time moms.

 

Part of the problem is doctors and hospitals that have procedures in place that make it more difficult for a woman to move around, choose labor positions that may be both less painful and promoting good positioning of the baby as well procedures and positioning for 2nd stage that are not positive physiologically. They set up a situation that makes it more difficult to birth a baby. Then, whether necessary or not, they rush in to get the baby out by either cutting an episiotomy and/or using instruments (usually vacuum these days) to pull the baby out. The combination of episiotomy and instrument delivery is responsible for 90% of the serious lacerations that occur (3rd and 4th degree.) In reference to another thread about birth place, this is why many women choose out of hospital births - to avoid the interventions and policies that make these types of births more likely to happen. My experience is why I became a childbirth educator and why I chose to have my 3rd baby at home.

 

I do understand how fortunate we were. I deeply appreciate how different my wife's experience was from the "norm". Even almost 5 years out, I think about that night and feel grateful we had a physician who was enlightened and humane and patient.

 

And it angers me that this in not the norm. I was there. I saw how it was done. I'm not going into the baby-delivery business, but it was easy to see how a little bit of manual help at the critical moments made all the difference in the world.

 

It horrifies me (like it does you) that doctors are rushing deliveries, using instruments and vacuums, and cutting on women. I'm not that prone to rage, but this enrages me. It is brutal, barbaric, and unnecessary.

 

We were fortunate, very fortunate. We had a great doctor and were in one of the best birthing hospitals in the United States. But as great as those advantages were, the things that really made the difference were quite simple and intuitive. And every mother deserves the respect my wife was shown.

 

Thank you for dedicating yourself to trying to improving the situation for women. It's sad to think such efforts are still necessary, but clearly they are. I salute you!

 

Bill

[Brindee]

I do understand how fortunate we were. I deeply appreciate how different my wife's experience was from the "norm". Even almost 5 years out, I think about that night and feel grateful we had a physician who was enlightened and humane and patient.

 

And it angers me that this in not the norm. I was there. I saw how it was done. I'm not going into the baby-delivery business, but it was easy to see how a little bit of manual help at the critical moments made all the difference in the world.

 

It horrifies me (like it does you) that doctors are rushing deliveries, using instruments and vacuums, and cutting on women. I'm not that prone to rage, but this enrages me. It is brutal, barbaric, and unnecessary.

 

We were fortunate, very fortunate. We had a great doctor and were in one of the best birthing hospitals in the United States. But as great as those advantages were, the things that really made the difference were quite simple and intuitive. And every mother deserves the respect my wife was shown.

 

Thank you for dedicating yourself to trying to improving the situation for women. It's sad to think such efforts are still necessary, but clearly they are. I salute you!

 

Bill

I agree, it SHOULD be the norm! And in a lot of cases it IS wrong that they rush it through!!!

 

HOWEVER, sometimes, with plummeting heartrates of babies because of chords wrapped around their necks and mothers who stop breathing (both of which happened with my first), it couldn't be worked out that way--there wasn't time for either of us! They ripped my first one out with forceps to save both of our lives---I'd MUCH rather have the 4th degree tears all over, fore and aft, than have a dead baby, or leave my husband a widower!

 

It took a LONG time for me to heal after that! I don't even know how many stitches, but it took my doctor a LONG time to stitch me up! The witch hazel pads are what helped me the most! They also gave me a blow up donut pillow that I waddled around with so I could go to church and sit for a few minutes at a time. That only after two weeks of laying almost constantly! The spray was great too!

 

Now, with my second one, who weighed 3 pounds MORE than my first one (10-3), I barely tore at all---for the precise reason you mention--the perineal massage. It was the nurse that did that.

 

With my third, again, the nurse did that and I didn't tear at all!

Edited May 21, 2009 by Brindee

[KidsHappen]

I'm not here, I'm not reading the other posts.

 

But why, oh why, are doctors letting women tear and/or cutting them? It makes my blood boil :glare:

 

We were blessed (blessed) to have the best obstetrician when my wife delivered. She naturally was nervous, and asked about the chances she'd need an episiotomy.

 

Our physician looked at us somewhat gravely and said, "I've never cut a woman during my practice, and your wife will not be the first".

 

I was impressed!

 

I was more impressed when I witnessed why he could make the claim.

 

During the delivery he stopped things from time to time, and ever so gently pulled back and eased tissues manually. It was so incredibly gentle. It look a little longer, a few extra minutes, but my wife did not tear. And I am still grateful for that.

 

We had family members with us in the large birthing room in the hospital. And the women were astounded at the gentle techniques of our OB. They'd never seen anything like it. Perhaps it's not usual, but why?

 

No woman should tear needlessly. Or be cut needlessly. And it's a shame too many doctors seem to want to pull a baby out a fast as possible, and that new mothers pay the price. I am "no expert" here but I've seen a better way. And I know it made all the difference in the world.

 

Bill (who is going back into "hiding")

 

Bill,

 

I had a ten and a half pound baby with shoulder dystocia (impacted) during a homebirth. The midwife employed a few different non-invasive methods of trying to deliver the shoulders without success and eventually had to resort to reaching inside to manually turn the shoulders to get them delivered. Unfortunately, this resulted in a 3rd degree laceration. I did not get into the doctor until much later at which point I chose not to get it stiched up. I healed just fine and had three more children after that. Now, I won't say it was easy or painless but I managed. I used most of the same methods that others have listed here minus the Vicodin because I was breastfeeding. Anyhow, that is how this can happen. It was a choice between ripping or loosing the baby which in my opinion is not even a choice. I could heal from ripping not so sure about losing a baby. I am sure this happen much more than is neccessary but sometimes it is unavoidable.

 

P.S. I went on to have another ten and a half pound baby and I did not rip at all during that birth.

[Spy Car]

Brindee and KidsHappen, big hugs :grouphug:

 

I'm sorry you both faced complications. In the same position I've have said cut, or C-section, or do what-ever needs to be done to save the life of my wife and my child. No question about that.

 

It's the routine use of force when it isn't necessary that needs to stop. Emergencies are emergencies. That's why we chose to deliver in a hospital.

 

But why put women in the position of choosing between compassionate delivery (under normal circumstances) and having a hospital and trained physicians there if things go wrong.

 

We should be able to choose both. Mothers are heros, and deserve to be treated with compassion and respect. Not as an inconvenience that's going to mess-up a "tee-time".

 

I'm ranting. I'm sorry. I'm glad you both had better subsequent experiences. And I'm sorry for the rough first deliveries.

 

Bill

[SonshineLearner]

Hey There,

Just a nod that with the next, there's hope. My midwife did some serious stretching with my second baby (looked like she was trying to get me ready for a rectangular box to come out...no finger stretches here) and when I finally stood up...(after hours) one contraction and his head was out. Then, down I went to the floor and a nurse lunged from the top of my stomach to push him out. Even with all of this, I had no tearing, due to the stretching and the standing to get him out. He was 10lbs 3oz. (and 23 1/4 inches) With my daughter, same midwife...no stretching, I had internal and external tearing. (and she weighed 1 lb less) I am a pretty small person....and babies just don't like to come out.... BUT, I can say that the small pain of having her whole hands stretching me, was way less than pain than the tearing and stitches and the pain of the needle.

Carrie...

[Guest sw1ssm1ss]

First, a suggestion I haven't seen here: tear open the back seam of a newborn disposable diaper and insert ice chips in the pocket you will find between the absorbent/soft part of the diaper and the waterproof lining that's on the outside of the diaper. Ab. Solutely. Heavenly. It is so great to have something icy which also absorbs!

 

I had a third degree tear *and* a vaginal wall tear with my first. The cord was around her neck and the doctor pulled her body out quickly. Like others have said, if it's a dangerous situation for the baby or the mom, there's no question that the doctor or midwife should do what's necessary.

 

With my second and third, I had second degree tears. The second baby was 10 pounds, 2 ounces, and the third was 8 pounds, 12 ounces. With the big baby, I was completely irrational (in a wonderful, natural birth sort of way!) and probably wouldn't have tolerated any perineal massage for more than a second. With my third, there was *no* time for perineal massage. She came out in one push (I don't even remember pushing at all) within minutes after the doctor arrived. The doctor and my husband did try to convince me to pull my legs back more to avoid tearing, but I couldn't do it, and there was no time anyway!

 

I will say, second degree tears do not hurt anything like that first tear I had. *That* was completely horrible, and I think the vaginal wall tear was much, much more painful than the third degree tear. It's just not a good place to tear!

[Kay in Cal]

I agree with your point... I didn't want an episiotomy or anything like that, and sometimes tearing really isn't preventable. I had a wonderful natural, unmedicated birth using hypnobirthing... but fast. Not because I was induced, but because I labor fast. My first birth I had just over 10 minutes of pushing. I think they were expecting it would be a while! I had 3-4 pushes and "whoopee" there he was. My doctor wasn't there (it was 1am) and the doctor sleeping on call barely had a chance to walk into the room and catch him before he hit the floor. I had pretty severe tearing. There was just no time for streching and gently guiding him into the world. In... then out. Boom.

 

My second delivery I told my new doctor it would be fast--and he still missed it. I caught the baby myself with the help of the nurse--3 pushes, around 7 minutes. Less tearing, but still some.

 

If we have a third, I'm thinking it'll be one push, and we might want to put a basket with a target on the other side of the room. I think I'm up for it.

 

Just to say, I do understand your point--but sometimes tearing really is unavoidable, and not the fault of the medical profession.

[Spy Car]

Just to say, I do understand your point--but sometimes tearing really is unavoidable, and not the fault of the medical profession.

 

I'm sure that's true. If a doctor, nurse or mid-wife makes a conscious effort to prevent tearing including taking the time (labor permitting) to manually help the process along, and tearing still occurs, one has to accept this as a part of life.

 

But if a doctor is impatient and wants to pull a baby out, or want to cut because it will make it more convenient for himself, or doesn't take the moment to help pull back tissues and help prevent tearing (as most women I've spoken with have described their experience) then it is not OK. That's my feeling anyway.

 

Maybe I'm out of my depth on this thread? :D

 

Bill

[Tree House Academy]

what did you do for pain management and recovery? Any advice? My sister just had her first baby and tore horribly. They had to call a specialist to stitch her up! She is pretty miserable...

 

Thanks,

Karen

 

Unfortunately, I did nothing. I was 19 and just suffered. I couldn't even drive my car (a standard transmission) for 2 weeks. I am sorry your sister is going through this. I am sure she is already using the ice pack pads. My doctor (2nd baby) had me use ice pack pads tucks pads, and dermoplast spray. It helped minimally. Resting helps the most...but we all know how easy that is with a new baby in the house. :grouphug: for your sister. BTDT!

 

I agree with Ellen - man I wish I had known then what I know now about that area and what to do/not to do. The birth that caused me the 4th degree was a suction birth.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Tree House Academy]

That was my exact situation with my first son, too. I agree with what everyone else said. My 2nd child was induced a bit early to try to avoid a repeat of DS, and I *only* had second degree tears with her. My 3rd and 4th were C-sections, which is now the protocol for someone who's had 4th degree lacerations. I thought long and hard about it, because I really didn't want to do a Cesarian unless it was absolutely necessary. Honestly, recovering from a C-section was 1000 times easier than recovering from 4th degree lacerations.

 

Unfortunately, I still feel the effects of my oldest child's delivery nearly everyday. He's 13. I truly hope her recovery is quick and complete.

 

You are kidding? Now they do sections on anyone who has had a 4th degree? GRRRR! That makes me so mad! I really should have had a section with my 2nd child. I, too had a 2nd degree tear after a 4th degree episiotomy. Now, I have TONS of issues...

[Brindee]

But why put women in the position of choosing between compassionate delivery (under normal circumstances) and having a hospital and trained physicians there if things go wrong.

 

We should be able to choose both. Mothers are heros, and deserve to be treated with compassion and respect. Not as an inconvenience that's going to mess-up a "tee-time".

That's what my dh says! I'm thankful there are men like you and my dh (and others) who feel that way!

 

I'm ranting. I'm sorry. I'm glad you both had better subsequent experiences. And I'm sorry for the rough first deliveries.

Not ranting, very astute observations and conclusions I'd say! Thanks, I'm glad I had better subsequent deliveries too! :D

 

But if a doctor is impatient and wants to pull a baby out, or want to cut because it will make it more convenient for himself, or doesn't take the moment to help pull back tissues and help prevent tearing (as most women I've spoken with have described their experience) then it is not OK. That's my feeling anyway.

:iagree: I consider having a baby one of the most special, important parts of the parents' lives! For nurses or doctors to take control and run things THEIR way (like my nurse from h*ll) is just not right! I cannot fathom someone thinking they have the right to do that!:glare:

 

Maybe I'm out of my depth on this thread? :D

I think you're hangin' in there pretty well! :D

[Brindee]

You are kidding? Now they do sections on anyone who has had a 4th degree? GRRRR! That makes me so mad! I really should have had a section with my 2nd child. I, too had a 2nd degree tear after a 4th degree episiotomy. Now, I have TONS of issues...

Wow, I had 2 vaginal births after my 4th degree! And, as I said, they went much better because someone took time for the massaging. I'm glad that rule wasn't in effect when I had my next two babies!:001_huh:

[Denisemomof4]

what did you do for pain management and recovery? Any advice? My sister just had her first baby and tore horribly. They had to call a specialist to stitch her up! She is pretty miserable...

 

Thanks,

Karen

 

sitz baths, and as often as possible and as hot as she can stand it.

 

It WILL get better with time, but intercourse was painful for me for 1.5 years! Not saying that will happen to her, though..... my FIRST kid was 10.1 lbs!!! I also found tucks and witch hazel to soothe. I had to push for four hours, I believe, and I was BEGGING for a c-section. My baby was blue when he was delivered, and there was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAY he was going to fit into NEWBORN diapers!

[Sugarfoot]

You are kidding? Now they do sections on anyone who has had a 4th degree? GRRRR! That makes me so mad! I really should have had a section with my 2nd child. I, too had a 2nd degree tear after a 4th degree episiotomy. Now, I have TONS of issues...

 

Yeah, those issues are the reason for the new recommendation. I don't know how "new" it is, but it wasn't there when my 2nd was born, and she just turned 11. When I got pregnant with my 3rd 3 years ago, my Dr. told me that they now recommend a C-section if you've had a 4th degree tear. Long-term, women with that kind of damage are much more likely to have problems and issues later in life. I was terrified that it would happen to me again with my second, but she was induced early in an attempt to avoid it. I still ended up with an epeisiotomy (sp?) and a 2nd degree tear.

 

So far, I've dealt with my damage without surgery. I honestly don't know if that's the wisest decision, but I can't even imagine having that kind of surgery.

[Brindee]

 

It WILL get better with time, but intercourse was painful for me for 1.5 years! Not saying that will happen to her, though..... my FIRST kid was 10.1 lbs!!! I also found tucks and witch hazel to soothe. I had to push for four hours, I believe, and I was BEGGING for a c-section. My baby was blue when he was delivered, and there was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAY he was going to fit into NEWBORN diapers!

Yeah, my 10-3 boy was the same way. He barely fit in the 3-6 month clothes as a newborn! When my parents came in to see him, my dad said, "I thought your were going to have a BABY!" :D

[Mamagistra]

It is brutal, barbaric, and unnecessary.

 

Word, Spy. :tongue_smilie:

 

And to my mind, the cruelest act of all is expecting women to labor in a mostly supine position, tethered to machines that go PING!, all the while calling this "normal" and "precautionary". I won't get started on the whole birth-as-illness mentality that has us performing this natural act in a @$%#^! hospital in the first place. :glare:

[dirty ethel rackham]

No newborn diapers here:). My first was 10 lbs. 11 oz. They had him in the nursery (stupid hospital policy - against my wishes) next to a 5 pounder and my son was more than this baby's size. Everyone commented that he looked like a 3 month old.

 

If I they had turned down the epidural (that I was pressured into having) and allowed me to change positions like I asked, I am positive that I could have birthed him on my own. However, when I asked to change positions (flat on my back for 90 minutes with no head support - so my neck was sore from doing about 30 two minute crunches) he just cut an episiotomy and pulled him out with vacuum. No discussion - no informed consent. If it were necessary, I would have a greater level of acceptance. Although I may have had some tearing, I am sure that the level of damage I suffered could have been avoided.

 

This is why I became a childbirth educator. I taught the Bradley Method for 12 years, hanging up the old pelvis last fall. I wanted to help give women education, confidence and tools so that no one should have to deal with this unnecessarily. While there are situations where this type of damage is not preventable, over 95% of cases are. Whether it be restrictions to bed, unphysiologic birthing position, haste on the part of the doctor, too much "fanny fiddling" (massage can actuallly break down tissue and increase the likelihood of tearing) much of it is iatrogenic (doctor caused.) I could get on my soap-box all day about our broken maternity care system, but I feel a rise in blood pressure coming on so I will go relax somewhere.

[Brindee]

And to my mind, the cruelest act of all is expecting women to labor in a mostly supine position, tethered to machines that go PING!, all the while calling this "normal" and "precautionary". I won't get started on the whole birth-as-illness mentality that has us performing this natural act in a @$%#^! hospital in the first place. :glare:

Yeah, making a woman lie like that to labor is NOT natural at all!

 

However, though having a baby is a natural thing, it IS a dangerous one as well! Huge changes take place, and the body goes through amazing things throughout the pregnancy and birth. I'm NOT thankful about being in a supine position or those haateful things they made me put my feet in to push (my hospital didn't have the tubs and other forms of birth methods until a year after my dd was born! I should've had another one)!:glare: But I AM thankful that I COULD be in a hospital with doctors, nurses, machines and medicine that saved mine and my babies lives! After the experience with my first, I wasn't about to try to labor at home, and that turned out to be a good choice!

 

I know where you're coming from though!:001_smile:

[Kay in Cal]

No, I totally agree. I was very demanding about doing labor my own way, no drugs, even though I had a hospital birth I refused to have an IV, wear a gown, go on a monitor, let anyone take the baby, etc. I had to have a *special* nurse with natural childbirth experience. I love that you advocate for women on this, and I think I was pretty luck to have such a good labor/delivery experience...

 

Just had to say, since I had posted advice above, that sometimes it happens.

[KidsHappen]

I'm sure that's true. If a doctor, nurse or mid-wife makes a conscious effort to prevent tearing including taking the time (labor permitting) to manually help the process along, and tearing still occurs, one has to accept this as a part of life.

 

But if a doctor is impatient and wants to pull a baby out, or want to cut because it will make it more convenient for himself, or doesn't take the moment to help pull back tissues and help prevent tearing (as most women I've spoken with have described their experience) then it is not OK. That's my feeling anyway.

 

Maybe I'm out of my depth on this thread? :D

 

Bill

 

Bill, I agree with Kay and Brindee on this. You are doing just fine in this thread and I am tickled to see a man here so informed and caring about women, babies and birthing. One of my widwives was actually a man. As a matter of fact, he named my fourth dd as we were expecting a boy and did not have a girl's name picked out. She was named per traditional indian customs and boy did he ever peg her. Her name fits her perfectly. The midwife who attended my grandson's birth about 7 months ago was also a man and the best I have ever seen. I was so thankful that we had him because my grandson had two serious, potentially life threatening complications and the midwife managed to deliver him completely naturally. I have been know to rant on this subject quite a bit myself and I agree that this happens way more than it should.

[lorilou]

Ditto on the frequent sitz baths, ice packs, dermoplast spray, advil, and tucks....***keep the tucks in the fridge*** so they are nice and cool...very soothing! I had a third degree tear and it took me about 2 weeks to feel better. Will be praying that she heals quickly. :grouphug:

[kalanamak]

sitz baths, and as often as possible and as hot as she can stand it.

 

 

When my mother was in her 80's, she spoke of the delight of a heat lamp on her owie, waiting for "her turn" and the nurse in whites wheeling it in (it was 1952). "Just heaven" she sighed, and let her eyes close a little. So, my mother's advice is: heat lamp.

[Karenathome]

Too funny about the heat lamp. I remember talking with my mom about holding a lamp (minus the shade) near my episiotomy to help it heal! And I had nothing compared to what my sister is going through...

 

Thanks again!!! There is nothing like the voice of experience...

[stripe]

I'm sure that's true. If a doctor, nurse or mid-wife makes a conscious effort to prevent tearing including taking the time (labor permitting) to manually help the process along, and tearing still occurs, one has to accept this as a part of life.

 

Michel Odent thinks women should be alone, with a granny type midwife (in terms of age and supposedly calm temperament) who won't talk much, without their partners (will inhibit them), and without ANY thought or anything done to prevent tearing. He emphatically believes partners should NOT be in the room, that it ends up driving them apart, even though they may feel connected to the birth, they no longer feel romantic toward the woman.

 

I am not advocating his point of view; I'm just saying that not everyone thinks all midwives should address tearing head on (sorry for the pun).

Edited May 24, 2009 by stripe

[Brindee]

The man .... I can't think of his name. Anyway he has written a lot about childbirth. He thinks women should be alone, with a granny type midwife (in terms of age and supposedly calm temperament) who won't talk much, without their partners (will inhibit them), and without ANY thought or anything done to prevent tearing. He emphatically believes partners should NOT be in the room, that it ends up driving them apart, even though they may feel connected to the birth, they no longer feel romantic toward the woman.

I agree with the Mom/Grandma midwife type person! With my dd I had a nurse like that, and I remember her VERY fondly!

 

I TOTALLY disagree on the not having partners in the room, however! My dh wanted to be there, and I TOTALLY wanted him there as well! It helped calm me to have him there helping me in any ways possible. I loved having him next to me! In fact, he helped me hang in there during the complications. My mom and sister were there for the last two. They loved being there, and I loved having them there! Without the partners, it's scarier, and lonely, going through all that strange stuff!

 

And trust me, it in no way inhibited my dh from feeling romantic toward me again!:001_smile:

Edited May 24, 2009 by Brindee

[Spy Car]

Michel Odent thinks women should be alone, with a granny type midwife (in terms of age and supposedly calm temperament) who won't talk much, without their partners (will inhibit them), and without ANY thought or anything done to prevent tearing. He emphatically believes partners should NOT be in the room, that it ends up driving them apart, even though they may feel connected to the birth, they no longer feel romantic toward the woman.

 

I am not advocating his point of view; I'm just saying that not everyone thinks all midwives should address tearing head on (sorry for the pun).

 

Well I'm glad I didn't listen to that guy :lol:

 

I don't think my wife and I ever felt more bonded than doing though that experience together. And she (having a bad hip) actually benefited from my bolstering her leg through the birthing process, so it was a lot more comfortable for her.

 

And I would not have missed that moment for the world! That was the happiest moment of my life.

 

No. The experience only made a great marriage that much stronger. We shared our joy! That's what life is about to me. Magic moments, not to me missed.

 

And letting women tear if it can be prevented? Borders on criminal. Insane!

 

I have no regrets that we did the opposite of everything this "Michel" suggests. Eternally grateful that I did not is more accurate.

 

Bill

[stripe]

I think he was saying that birth is so natural, that the body should just be allowed to do what it wants to do, without any inhibitions (including birth "professionals" giving instructions/directions or worrying what one's husband will think -- and there really are some men who should NOT be allowed to be in the delivery room; from stories of my friends, I've heard about one who fainted and another who complained about the noise), and then the baby will just POP out without complications -- I think that's what he's saying, not "let 'er rip!"

[Spy Car]

I think he was saying that birth is so natural, that the body should just be allowed to do what it wants to do, without any inhibitions (including birth "professionals" giving instructions/directions or worrying what one's husband will think -- and there really are some men who should NOT be allowed to be in the delivery room; from stories of my friends, I've heard about one who fainted and another who complained about the noise), and then the baby will just POP out without complications -- I think that's what he's saying, not "let 'er rip!"

 

I'm just saying I witnessed (at extremely close range) what happens when a professional says "OK, let's hold for a moment" and then gently helps part the ways.

 

Takes what? A minute?

 

And the result? No tearing.

 

Would this prevent all tearing in every case? I don't know. Maybe not.

 

All I know is my wife did not tear. And that our doctor claims (and I believe him) that he has never cut a woman. That to me is astounding!

 

And I was supremely grateful that my wife was not in pain after labor and was neither torn nor cut. And having watched what our doctor did to prevent the tearing, it seems totally appropriate to me that this gentle unfolding take place.

 

Is there a name for what I'm talking about?

 

No one on this board has delivered few children than I have. So big voice of authority here. I'm just grateful we had/have a great ob/gyn who made my wife's experience as pain-free as it possibly could have been.

 

And that my wife got to focus on our new-born, and not on her pain.

 

Bill