Exactly HOW is Catholic not Christian?

[Audrey]

I ask this for information only, not to argue. I have never ever in my life heard anyone say that Catholics were not Christian except here on these boards. It is, to say the very least, a great surprise to me.

 

FTR, although I am quite obviously not Christian or Catholic, I was raised in a prominent Protestant denomination, and I am married to a former Catholic. My formerly Catholic husband had never ever in his life heard anyone say Catholics weren't Christian either.

 

Our combined response to that suggestion is :001_huh:??

 

So enlighten me please. What would be the specific reasons why Catholics are not considered Christians? If you can point me to actual Scripture, that would be helpful. It would also be helpful to know which denominations believe this. You can point me to website or other references that would enlighten me further if you think it would help.

 

Again, I'm not asking to start a flame war here. Just tell me why you (or a particular group of people) believe that Catholics are not Christians, and provide some background references for this belief.

[mommaduck]

:lurk5:

[cathmom]

Some Christians believe this because they think that because Catholics do not believe in salvation through faith alone, it is not true Christianity and thus they are not really Christian.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Do you have a link to the thread where it was said that Catholics are not Christians? I'm just curious. :lurk5:

 

from Wikipedia: on Christianity.

 

In spite of important differences of interpretation and opinion, Christians share a set of beliefs that they hold as essential to their faith. This includes Catholics.

[MyThreeSons]

In summary, I think that most who take issue with the teachings of the Catholic church would say that many of the teachings and traditions of the RCC are extra-biblical -- that is, they put more requirements on a person for salvation than simply "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, ESV)

 

Here are a couple of sites which have most of the basic arguments I've heard:

 

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

 

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/are-roman-catholics-christian

 

Please note that I have not read each site thoroughly, and cannot therefore say that I agree with either of them wholeheartedly. I will say that my brief perusal leads me to think that I, personally, would align more with the second than the first. (No flames, please!)

 

HTH,

[mom4him]

I ask this for information only, not to argue. I have never ever in my life heard anyone say that Catholics were not Christian except here on these boards. It is, to say the very least, a great surprise to me.

 

FTR, although I am quite obviously not Christian or Catholic, I was raised in a prominent Protestant denomination, and I am married to a former Catholic. My formerly Catholic husband had never ever in his life heard anyone say Catholics weren't Christian either.

 

Our combined response to that suggestion is :001_huh:??

 

So enlighten me please. What would be the specific reasons why Catholics are not considered Christians? If you can point me to actual Scripture, that would be helpful. It would also be helpful to know which denominations believe this. You can point me to website or other references that would enlighten me further if you think it would help.

 

Again, I'm not asking to start a flame war here. Just tell me why you (or a particular group of people) believe that Catholics are not Christians, and provide some background references for this belief.

At one time we belonged to a church that leaned toward the teaching that Catholics were not Christian. I really do detest this type of thing. I believe you have to go past any church and what they do or do not teach and go to the person. Do they have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? Do they believe He was born of a virgin, died and on the 3rd day rose and that He did this for them? Then they are Christians. As far as I am concerned, end of subject. The Word of God says that they will be known by their fruits. Well some of my best friends have been Catholics and were truly the most caring, non judgemental people alive.

[Audrey]

Do you have a link to the thread where it was said that Catholics are not Christians? I'm just curious. :lurk5:

 

from Wikipedia: on Christianity.

 

In spite of important differences of interpretation and opinion, Christians share a set of beliefs that they hold as essential to their faith. This includes Catholics.

 

 

There are several references to it in this recent thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96385

 

I've also seen this crop up in past threads numerous times.

[Audrey]

Yes, it goes back to the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine. Faith alone will provide salvation, and works-based salvation is not doctrinal (so the thinking goes).

 

And don't shoot the messenger. :D

 

 

Nope. No flames. No shooting the messenger. I've just seen it said several times now and I really want to know why some believe this, but others don't, and HOW those who do believe it explain/justify their belief.

[dangermom]

I dislike it when people try to define others out of Christianity. No one owns the word 'Christian.' A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ. The end. It's none of my business to try to decide who is or is not in the club; much better to be examining myself to see if I'm doing right.

[Michelle in MO]

There have been many threads on the General Boards before which discuss Catholicism; a search will bring up some of those related discussions.

 

I believe that the simple definition of faith is as follows:

 

Rom 10:9-13:

 

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

To me, the simple answer would be that anyone who believes that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead is a Christian. Faith is simply a belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah and that he died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected from the dead. I know that my Catholic friends believe this wholeheartedly, so yes---I believe they are Christians!

 

But again, you might get a fuller explanation from searching this forum, because I know it's been discussed in the past.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195154800 A great book on the subject. However as a member of the Catholic church and a home educator I would posit that prejudice against Catholics per se has been in flux depending on where one falls on the political spectrum. The more traditional , conservative Catholics are so close on social issues to some conservative Protestants that some of the old prejudices seem to have evaporated due to the huge amount of interfaith/ecumenical dialogue on some social / political issues. Being a Vatican II Catholic leaves you fairly reviled by both aforementioned demographic groups. I consider the chasm to be far more political than theological regarding most mainstream Protestant groups. In addition I have been quite ashamed to see the reprehensible "flip side," distortions and ignorance spread regarding non Catholic members of the body of Christ. It really does go both ways. Historically there is no more painful a place to see this than in Belfast and Ulster. It is heartbreaking .

[MyThreeSons]

A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ.

 

After all, one can believe in Jesus without believing that He is the only path to Heaven.

 

I do, however, wholeheartedly agree that only God knows our hearts, and that He is the one who decides who is saved.

[Murphy101]

At one time we belonged to a church that leaned toward the teaching that Catholics were not Christian. I really do detest this type of thing. I believe you have to go past any church and what they do or do not teach and go to the person.

 

:001_huh: hmm I might agree to some extent, except...

 

The Catholic Church does teach, preach, advocate, and live the Nicene Creed, which is pretty clearly a christian creed imnsho.

 

However, if you look past what the Catholic Church teaches, you'll find many a cafe catholic and many a catholic that doesn't even know what the Nicene Creed is. Does their ignorance or their struggle to fully live the faith change that the Catholic Church is a christian church? I should hope not. In fact, I know it doesn't change that.

 

And even if if it did, one could say the same of any church denomination by that standard.

 

I don't know how anyone can logicly say Catholics aren't christian and frankly I don't think any of them do say it out of logic. But they do.

 

this umm guy for lack of a more christian phrase thinks the Catholic church and our popes are the seat of the antichrist.

 

he actually gets time on a local tv station every sunday. sickening. he's been on for many years preaching the same hate of my faith every sunday.:glare:

 

there's others that I could site, but I'm not in the mood to go looking, kwim?

Edited April 26, 2009 by Martha

[Audrey]

In summary, I think that most who take issue with the teachings of the Catholic church would say that many of the teachings and traditions of the RCC are extra-biblical -- that is, they put more requirements on a person for salvation than simply "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, ESV)

 

Here are a couple of sites which have most of the basic arguments I've heard:

 

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

 

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/are-roman-catholics-christian

 

Please note that I have not read each site thoroughly, and cannot therefore say that I agree with either of them wholeheartedly. I will say that my brief perusal leads me to think that I, personally, would align more with the second than the first. (No flames, please!)

 

HTH,

 

 

Thanks for the links. :001_smile: They were helpful. On the issue of being saved by works... this seems to be the crux of the issue, yes? Do you happen to know of where in the catechism it says Catholics believe that? I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

 

My dh says he does not recall that anywhere, but then... he is not exactly a reliable source of Catholic doctrine.

[KarenNC]

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/

 

A Christian group that specifically proselytizes Roman Catholics, says it's part of the Reformed Bible Church

http://www.cwrc-rz.org/

 

Mission to Catholics http://www.mtc.org/

Former Catholics for Christ http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2594/

 

Apprising Ministries lists itself as Baptist

http://apprising.org/category/roman-catholicism/

 

I think you will find that it is more specific *portions* of various denominations that hold to this view or even simply specific ministers or churches rather than entire denominations.

 

 

To be fair, I spent quite a while on a Roman Catholic discussion board (http://www.catholic.com) and heard multiple times that non-Roman Catholic Christians were not really fully Christian and only had their hope of salvation through the extent to which they agreed with the "True Church", so this is not a one-way street of marginalization.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

[KarenNC]

Thanks for the links. :001_smile: They were helpful. On the issue of being saved by works... this seems to be the crux of the issue, yes? Do you happen to know of where in the catechism it says Catholics believe that? I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

 

I would not operate on the assumption that those who hold this view are acting on accurate information on how Roman Catholics view their own teachings. Here's the searchable Roman Catholic Catechism online

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Searching on "salvation" will bring 223 pages of related material.

 

The first one:

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

[Audrey]

 

I think you will find that it is more specific *portions* of various denominations that hold to this view or even simply specific ministers or churches rather than entire denominations.

 

Well, that makes sense, then as to why I probably had not heard it before.

 

To be fair, I spent quite a while on a Roman Catholic discussion board (www.catholic.com) and heard multiple times that non-Roman Catholic Christians were not really fully Christian and only had their hope of salvation through the extent to which they agreed with the "True Church", so this is not a one-way street of marginalization.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

 

Hmm... I did not know that either. Thanks for the info. :001_smile:

[Audrey]

I would not operate on the assumption that those who hold this view are acting on accurate information on how Roman Catholics view their own teachings. Here's the searchable Roman Catholic Catechism online

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Searching on "salvation" will bring 223 pages of related material.

 

The first one:

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

 

 

Oo! Excellent source link! Thanks! :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

James 2:14-24 (KJV)

 

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

 

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

 

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

 

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

 

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

 

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

 

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†And he was called the friend of God.

 

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

[Jean in Newcastle]

What I believe:

 

Some Catholics are not Christians. But some Catholics are Christians.

 

Some Baptists are not Christians. But some Baptists are Christians.

 

Some Lutherans are not Christians. But some Lutherans are Christians.

 

Some ________ are not Christians.

 

Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for their sins is a Christian.

 

There are many people in churches of all denominations are not Christians. Of course there are those who know it because they are there to find out more about God. But there are those who have not been taught the gospel (the good news of what Jesus Christ did on the cross), some who believe that because their Mom and Dad are Christians that they automatically are, or who don't believe that they are "bad enough" for Jesus to have had to die for them. Many people trust in other things for their salvation. Doing certain works (instead of just believing) can be one of those things that people put their trust in. Being baptized into a certain church or any church for that matter, will not make you a Christian. Giving money to the church or the poor will not make you a Christian. Being nice to people will not make you a Christian. Having Christian parents will not make you a Christian. Going door to door will not make you a Christian. . .

 

Some passages that teach the gospel:

 

Ephesians 2: 8 - 9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 1- 8 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Jean in Newcastle

[Audrey]

James 2:14-24 (KJV)

 

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

 

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

 

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

 

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

 

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

 

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

 

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†And he was called the friend of God.

 

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

 

Ah. Okay, I see. But, Bill, this Scripture does not seem to be saying that one is "saved" by faith and works combined. It seems to be saying that works are an outward sign of faith. It doesn't mention salvation specifically, and that seems to be the issue on some of the sites mentioned above.

 

However, I'm perfectly willing to accept that there is a multitude of interpretations of Scripture, which is fine with me. :) I don't have a dog in this fight. I just want to understand how and why.

[mommaduck]

I agree with Martha. There are spiritual Christians (ie., not in name only) within the Catholic Church as well as other churches. There are also those that aren't in both the Catholic Church and other churches (and I say this about my own as well...I cannot judge one way or another as Scripture states that we don't even know our own hearts! So I don't sit and pick who is and who isn't except by their own confession and fruit).

 

I've also been on the Catholic forums (interesting discussions there ;) ). Some Catholics are as Karen stated, but not all and most likely not the majority. Some of my closest Christian friends are Catholic. One would drop everything and come across country if we ever needed him. His priest was someone my husband would sit of an evening and have a conversation with. They knew where they disagreed, but due to the history of Christianity, there IS a common shared faith.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ah. Okay, I see. But, Bill, this Scripture does not seem to be saying that one is "saved" by faith and works combined. It seems to be saying that works are an outward sign of faith. It doesn't mention salvation specifically, and that seems to be the issue on some of the sites mentioned above.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, Audrey. This is how I believe.

[KarenNC]

Oo! Excellent source link! Thanks! :001_smile:

 

You might find it interesting (or perhaps only oddballs like me would ;)) to compare the Roman Catholic catechism with the one used by the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the more liberal Presbyterian denomination) http://www.pcusa.org/catech/studycat.htm

 

and the one for the Presbyterian Church of America (more conservative Presbyterian denomination)--the Westminster Confession of Faith, which went back to an 18th century catechism, but did delete the reference to the Pope as Antichrist

http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_preface.htm

 

I grew up Presbyterian and there was a lot of emphasis on the catechism (I got $5 for memorizing the answers to the then Presbyterian children's catechism which was simpler when I was 5:)). I don't think all Protestant denominations actually use this format for teaching, but I may be incorrect. My husband thinks Lutherans have one, but I don't recall any mention of it in relation to say, Baptists or Assembly of God.

[Murphy101]

To be fair, I spent quite a while on a Roman Catholic discussion board (www.catholic.com) and heard multiple times that non-Roman Catholic Christians were not really fully Christian and only had their hope of salvation through the extent to which they agreed with the "True Church", so this is not a one-way street of marginalization.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

 

hmm, not quite.

 

they do not have the full truth of the One True Church - true

however, their hope of heaven is based same as mine on the mercy of God's judgement.:)

 

it has nothing to do with how much they do or do not believe in the Catholic church.

 

the same is true of muslims, atheist and so on. I don't know if they will go to heaven or not because judgement is not mine and is at the mercy of God alone.

 

Catholics simply think there's better odds for us.;):D

[KarenNC]

I've also been on the Catholic forums (interesting discussions there ;) ). Some Catholics are as Karen stated, but not all and most likely not the majority.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that *all* Roman Catholics or even all the ones who posted on that particular forum held to the Catholic version of that position. Actually I was amazed when I first encountered Catholics who fell into what I would consider the equivalent of the Protestant conservative/fundamentalist camp---I had really had the view based on my experience that Roman Catholics were overall more liberal in their understanding of such matters. It's the same as with Protestants, more likely specific people, priests, etc that lean that way, and likely a minority though I have no stats on that.

 

I did, though, encounter a few who specifically did state that they did not believe anyone other than Roman Catholics were actually Christian, so it does exist.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Knock it off with the less than helpful tags, guys. You know who you are, and so do I, since I can SEE your name attached to the tags. I've deleted them.

 

If I see more of this I'm banning the offenders as soon as I get back from dinner.

 

SWB

[mommaduck]

hmm, not quite.

 

they do not have the full truth of the One True Church - true

however, their hope of heaven is based same as mine on the mercy of God's judgement.:)

 

it has nothing to do with how much they do or do not believe in the Catholic church.

 

the same is true of muslims, atheist and so on. I don't know if they will go to heaven or not because judgement is not mine and is at the mercy of God alone.

 

Catholics simply think there's better odds for us.;):D

It could be, just as with Protestants and Radicals, that this is more from the few mouthy, but not well informed, ones on that board. But most people there are pretty cool and the moderation there is very gracious (I asked about a hot button issue and got immediately flamed by a few, but the moderator heard the sincerity of it and that I was trying to understand the differences between myself and them).

[littlebug42]

As Catholics, the faith and the works go together, they are not exclusive of each other. This is from Matthew 25:40 (courtesy of Bible gateway.com.

 

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

 

I was raised in a Southern Baptist church where there would be whole sermons on some Sundays about how evil Catholics were. However, I converted to Catholicism 5 years ago and after walking that path, I have never felt closer to Christ so while I know there are those that may believe that I am no longer a Christian, I know that I am.

[LBC]

What I believe:

 

Some Catholics are not Christians. But some Catholics are Christians.

 

Some Baptists are not Christians. But some Baptists are Christians.

 

Some Lutherans are not Christians. But some Lutherans are Christians.

 

Some ________ are not Christians.

 

Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for their sins is a Christian.

 

There are many people in churches of all denominations are not Christians. Of course there are those who know it because they are there to find out more about God. But there are those who have not been taught the gospel (the good news of what Jesus Christ did on the cross), some who believe that because their Mom and Dad are Christians that they automatically are, or who don't believe that they are "bad enough" for Jesus to have had to die for them. Many people trust in other things for their salvation. Doing certain works (instead of just believing) can be one of those things that people put their trust in. Being baptized into a certain church or any church for that matter, will not make you a Christian. Giving money to the church or the poor will not make you a Christian. Being nice to people will not make you a Christian. Having Christian parents will not make you a Christian. Going door to door will not make you a Christian. . .

 

 

 

:iagree:

My own personal experience reflects this. I was born to a Catholic mother, who chose to have me baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. After that she didn't take me to church more that a handful of times. To make a long story short, I had a very dramatic conversion experience when I was 18 years old. At this point, my mother was attending a protestant church, so that is where I ended up, but I could have just as easily found fellowship and growth in a Catholic church. What changed was on the inside, not the outside. I had experienced the regeneration that the Bible speaks of: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

Another example of this is something I learned during some time I spent in Egypt. It is a Muslim country, but it is legal to be a Christian if you are "born" as a Christian. Well, according to what the Bible teaches about being a Christian, there is a relationship involved. It's not the same as just "joining" a religious group. It is about a relationship with Jesus. You can't "join" a relationship. You can't be "affiliated" with a relationship.

 

The difficulty is that there is one word for two completely different things. The word "Christian" is used to describe anybody who believes in Jesus. That's pretty broad. That's like saying an American is anybody who believes in Abraham Lincoln. :tongue_smilie: I guess we could liken it to the fact that the English language has one word for "love", while the Greek language has four words, breaking the word down into specific types of love. I've also heard that the Inuit (Eskimos) have over 20 different words for "snow". There's a difference between "Biblical Christianity", and the "Religion" called Christianity.

 

Well, enough rambling. I hope I haven't confused the issue even more.:001_huh:

 

Lori

[Heather in Neverland]

I am so glad you asked this. My dh was raised in the catholic church, went to catholic school his whole life. He can still recite all the different prayers, etc., and you know that script-type thing they give you when you go to mass that tells you what the priest will say and then what you are supposed to say? He can still do it all by heart and it has been almost 15 years since he went to mass.

 

BUT

 

He must not have paid one ounce of attention in school because I swear that man is completely BEREFT of any doctrinal knowledge about the catholic church! I asked him one simple question: according to catholic doctrine, how is one "saved"? He said "I don't remember them ever talking about it." :confused: No wonder he got in so much trouble with the nuns.

 

So for me, therein lies the big issue....according to catholics, how is one "saved".....how does one get into heaven? He said he "thinks" that they believe if you are baptized as an infant then you are going to heaven. If that is true, then I can see why some would say they are not christian. But I don't know if that's true.

 

For me, the best explanation of salvation sounds like this: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/saved.html

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Half of my father's family is Catholic. I attended a Catholic school for a couple years. After school one day I was out somewhere in my uniform and a well meaning "Christian" informed me I was going to hell because I worshiped Mary. Little did he know *I* wasn't Catholic.

 

That's all I know about this issue. Interesting question.

[Heather in Neverland]

Half of my father's family is Catholic. I attended a Catholic school for a couple years. After school one day I was out somewhere in my uniform and a well meaning "Christian" informed me I was going to hell because I worshiped Mary. Little did he know *I* wasn't Catholic.

 

That's all I know about this issue. Interesting question.

 

Gosh that is so embarassing to me as a christian. I grew up in a very legalistic pentecostal church and I was not allowed to be friends with a catholic. Now I am married to one (OK, a former catholic, but still). :D I hate hearing stories like this because it is SO FAR from what Jesus taught. Sometimes the worst thing about christianity is christians.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We have a ministry on Wed. nights that is attended by people from all sorts of churches and backgrounds. Some are Catholics and some are Protestants. We do not belong to a specific denomination and do not teach specific denominational beliefs. My dh (the pastor) does teach verse by verse in the Bible. We get a lot of Catholics who tell us, "My priest never told me all of this!" We get a lot of Protestants who tell us, "My pastor/ minister never told me all of this!" Many of them (whether Catholic or Protestant) go to services where the Bible is not taught verse by verse and often the Bible is just sort of referred to as a jumping off point. We don't want people to hear what we have to say per se - but what God has to say in His Word. (And no I don't think that we get it absolutely correct 100% of the time.) But my point in all of this is that what the Bible says re. the gospel and what makes you a Christian is often something that has not been specifically taught in churches.

[chiguirre]

I got You Can Change the World by Jill Johnstone (who also wrote Window on the World) with an old SL core I bought. I read the section on Venezuela to see if it was something we could use (a la Akebu to Zapotec) and was astonished to see:

 

At Easter everyone is sad because Jesus died, but few know that he rose from the dead to forgive them their sins.

 

Okay, I didn't learn a whole bunch in my 8 years of CCD, but it would be pretty hard to snooze through that bit! I actually asked about it on SL Secular and someone explained that they thought it had something to do about having a crucifixion above the altar instead of a bare cross. I think Karen's links are probably more accurate about why someone would say this, but I was appalled on behalf of Venezuelan Catholics (and Catholics everywhere). Needless to say, we didn't use the book and I don't think I'll include it when I resell the core because of how objectionable it's characterization of Venezuelan society and religious practices were to me. I wouldn't trust it's information about a country I didn't know well enough to correct.

[WishboneDawn]

Ah. Okay, I see. But, Bill, this Scripture does not seem to be saying that one is "saved" by faith and works combined. It seems to be saying that works are an outward sign of faith. It doesn't mention salvation specifically, and that seems to be the issue on some of the sites mentioned above.

 

However, I'm perfectly willing to accept that there is a multitude of interpretations of Scripture, which is fine with me. :) I don't have a dog in this fight. I just want to understand how and why.

 

I'd say James is pretty clear on the topic of works as a way to salvation. It is at odds with Paul's epistles (the source of salvation by faith) and I often think it really interesting, especially when thinking about all the centuries of trouble the question of salvation caused Christians, why James was stuck in the Bible to begin with. You'd almost think the Bible wasn't supposed to be about the answers but rather about asking questions...

 

Regardless, the question is important and caused centuries of trouble because at the heart of it, it's a question about God's power. If we can be saved by works alone then that means we can be responsible for our own salvation and what does that say about the role and power of Jesus? If we can be saved by faith alone that means we can be excused from works and what does that say about the power of God's goodness?

 

I have a friend who's a minister and he boils it down to this - Are we saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ or the faith IN Jesus Christ? By the demand of faith to live as Jesus lived or the demand of faith to believe in Jesus? I suspect most Christians would feel that to some degree it's both.

[Erica in PA]

One thing that I think is important to remember is that it is not meant to be an insult, though I can understand why it can be insulting, if that makes any sense. Ime, what is really meant when one says that Catholics are not Christians, is that Catholics are not saved, or "born again" through faith. So really it comes down to how one defines "Christian." As seen in this thread, some believe that a Christian is anyone who considers himself to be a follower of Christ. Some would define a Christian as one who believes that Jesus died for sins and rose again. Others, who would be in the camp being discussed here, would say it is those who believe that Jesus died for their sins and that faith in Him is the only way to salvation (i.e. that works are only a result of faith, and not that the works are necessary for salvation.)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not intended as a slam.. i.e. "Catholics aren't even CHRISTIANS!!":boxing_smiley: It's more "I don't believe that Catholic doctrine is true to the Scriptures, and sadly, I don't believe that the plan of salvation being taught there leads to eternal life." It's a belief based on theology and the Bible, not on a desire to offend. Though, as I said above, I totally understand why that belief can be offensive.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Erica in PA

[unsinkable]

We have a ministry on Wed. nights that is attended by people from all sorts of churches and backgrounds. Some are Catholics and some are Protestants. We do not belong to a specific denomination and do not teach specific denominational beliefs. My dh (the pastor) does teach verse by verse in the Bible. We get a lot of Catholics who tell us, "My priest never told me all of this!" We get a lot of Protestants who tell us, "My pastor/ minister never told me all of this!" Many of them (whether Catholic or Protestant) go to services where the Bible is not taught verse by verse and often the Bible is just sort of referred to as a jumping off point. We don't want people to hear what we have to say per se - but what God has to say in His Word. (And no I don't think that we get it absolutely correct 100% of the time.) But my point in all of this is that what the Bible says re. the gospel and what makes you a Christian is often something that has not been specifically taught in churches.

 

My questions would be:

 

Did you ever do a Bible study with your pastor? Did you ask your pastor about that particular passage?

 

In the RC church Gospels are on a three year cycle for Sundays. Maybe the person wasn't there that Sunday? :D Maybe they were "ready" to "hear" what they heard from your dh until your dh said it.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Gosh that is so embarassing to me as a christian. I grew up in a very legalistic pentecostal church and I was not allowed to be friends with a catholic. Now I am married to one (OK, a former catholic, but still). :D I hate hearing stories like this because it is SO FAR from what Jesus taught. Sometimes the worst thing about christianity is christians.

 

Lol- I agree. But fortunately most of the Christians I know aren't like that guy. :D

[Brigitte]

I am so glad you asked this. My dh was raised in the catholic church, went to catholic school his whole life. He can still recite all the different prayers, etc., and you know that script-type thing they give you when you go to mass that tells you what the priest will say and then what you are supposed to say? He can still do it all by heart and it has been almost 15 years since he went to mass.

 

BUT

 

He must not have paid one ounce of attention in school because I swear that man is completely BEREFT of any doctrinal knowledge about the catholic church! I asked him one simple question: according to catholic doctrine, how is one "saved"? He said "I don't remember them ever talking about it." :confused: No wonder he got in so much trouble with the nuns.

 

Our priest (Catholic, btw) said in his homily today that Catholics are the most educated of all the Christian faiths, but that they are the least educated about their own faith of all the faiths. (He said there were studies to back that up.) He criticized Catholics for thinking that once they graduate from high school, their "Church" learning is done.

[WishboneDawn]

One thing that I think is important to remember is that it is not meant to be an insult, though I can understand why it can be insulting, if that makes any sense. Ime, what is really meant when one says that Catholics are not Christians, is that Catholics are not saved, or "born again" through faith. So really it comes down to how one defines "Christian." As seen in this thread, some believe that a Christian is anyone who considers himself to be a follower of Christ. Some would define a Christian as one who believes that Jesus died for sins and rose again. Others, who would be in the camp being discussed here, would say it is those who believe that Jesus died for their sins and that faith in Him is the only way to salvation (i.e. that works are only a result of faith, and not that the works are necessary for salvation.)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not intended as a slam.. i.e. "Catholics aren't even CHRISTIANS!!":boxing_smiley: It's more "I don't believe that Catholic doctrine is true to the Scriptures, and sadly, I don't believe that the plan of salvation being taught there leads to eternal life." It's a belief based on theology and the Bible, not on a desire to offend. Though, as I said above, I totally understand why that belief can be offensive.

 

I'm not so sure. Explaining why the doctrine of your church would not accept Catholics as saved is a very different expression from, "Catholics aren't Christians." One opens a discussion with sharing a POV, the other shuts it down with exclusion. I have seen it clearly expressed (though not here) that Catholics were not Christian and I think those who said such things meant exactly what they were saying.

 

That said, I think there's likely some scriptural support for the doctrine you explained (although I'd probably debate you on it :D) but none at all for the idea that Catholics aren't Christian. Be awfully hard since there were no Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox folk when most of the authors of the NT were sitting down to dictate or write their letters. :)

[nmoira]

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not intended as a slam.. i.e. "Catholics aren't even CHRISTIANS!!":boxing_smiley: It's more "I don't believe that Catholic doctrine is true to the Scriptures, and sadly, I don't believe that the plan of salvation being taught there leads to eternal life." It's a belief based on theology and the Bible, not on a desire to offend. Though, as I said above, I totally understand why that belief can be offensive.

This has been an interesting thread, and many have clearly stated their firm belief that this or that path does lead to salvation. I guess where I'm confused is as to whether there is a Biblical basis for being able to determine what definitively does not lead to salvation. On what basis can one say, "that is the wrong path?"

[Spy Car]

I'd say James is pretty clear on the topic of works as a way to salvation. It is at odds with Paul's epistles (the source of salvation by faith) and I often think it really interesting, especially when thinking about all the centuries of trouble the question of salvation caused Christians, why James was stuck in the Bible to begin with.

 

Funny, but when I ponder this question in my mind, I pose it the other way around :D

 

Bill

[WishboneDawn]

This has been an interesting thread, and many have clearly stated their firm belief that this or that path does lead to salvation. I guess where I'm confused is as to whether there is a Biblical basis for being able to determine what definitively does not lead to salvation. On what basis can one say, "that is the wrong path?"

 

In this year of my Education for Ministry (lay ministry that is, I'm not fit for the frock myself) course we're in the middle of centuries of church councils that attempt to determine just this matter. My firm and unshakeable conclusion is...

 

"I dunno."

[WishboneDawn]

Funny, but when I ponder this question in my mind, I pose it the other way around :D

 

Bill

 

LOL! I say we work on a rewrite. :D

[Barb_]

He must not have paid one ounce of attention in school because I swear that man is completely BEREFT of any doctrinal knowledge about the catholic church! I asked him one simple question: according to catholic doctrine, how is one "saved"? He said "I don't remember them ever talking about it." :confused: No wonder he got in so much trouble with the nuns.

 

That's because Catholics don't use the word "saved". That is a particularly Protestant word. The only reason I understand the concept of saved after 12 years of Catholic school is my Southern Baptist great-grandma. Your husband is absolutely correct as far as Catholic dogma is concerned. Baptism into the faith is all that is required, but dying with mortal sin on your soul (killing, adultry or forgetting to go to mass :lol:) is enough to override Baptistm. Really, it's not your dh's fault. It's the language barrier.

 

Barb

[mommaduck]

One thing that I think is important to remember is that it is not meant to be an insult, though I can understand why it can be insulting, if that makes any sense. Ime, what is really meant when one says that Catholics are not Christians, is that Catholics are not saved, or "born again" through faith. So really it comes down to how one defines "Christian." As seen in this thread, some believe that a Christian is anyone who considers himself to be a follower of Christ. Some would define a Christian as one who believes that Jesus died for sins and rose again. Others, who would be in the camp being discussed here, would say it is those who believe that Jesus died for their sins and that faith in Him is the only way to salvation (i.e. that works are only a result of faith, and not that the works are necessary for salvation.)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not intended as a slam.. i.e. "Catholics aren't even CHRISTIANS!!":boxing_smiley: It's more "I don't believe that Catholic doctrine is true to the Scriptures, and sadly, I don't believe that the plan of salvation being taught there leads to eternal life." It's a belief based on theology and the Bible, not on a desire to offend. Though, as I said above, I totally understand why that belief can be offensive.

 

 

And Catholics also believe that works are a result of faith. There are born again Catholics and not born again Catholics just as much as there are born again *pick a name* and those that are *pick same name* in name only.

 

My suggestion, do an actual study on what Catholics believe and teach. Study the early Church fathers. Don't just go off of Chick tracts and those that preach like a Chick tract. (I know because I was raised in one of those churches...they pass along a lot of bunk)

[nmoira]

In this year of my Education for Ministry (lay ministry that is, I'm not fit for the frock myself) course we're in the middle of centuries of church councils that attempt to determine just this matter. My firm and unshakeable conclusion is...

 

"I dunno."

:D

[Dobela]

 

This has been an interesting thread, and many have clearly stated their firm belief that this or that path does lead to salvation. I guess where I'm confused is as to whether there is a Biblical basis for being able to determine what definitively does not lead to salvation. On what basis can one say, "that is the wrong path?"

That could lead to a huge discussion in and of itself. I have 2 definitions of Christian - 1 is very narrow and only includes those who believe as I do concerning issues such as salvation and what is required while the other is inclusive of those in every church that consider themselves to be followers of Christ. I believe the wrong path is one that is not found in the Bible. I can't find the sinner's prayer anywhere in the Bible. I also can't ignore the passages that say we are to be baptized. I also can't find any examples of early Christians or the Apostles in the Bible praying to Mary or other saints. I can't find anyone other than God or Jesus forgiving sins. I haven't found where God promises wealth to every believer. I do believe that scripture teaches that the Devil and his followers will sometimes mascarade as good in order to mislead us and take us away from God and because of this some churches and church leaders are teaching falsehoods to take us further away. However, that doesn't give me permission to condemn someone else. That is the job of God and the Bible. I love to discuss differences (and similarities) between churches and believe we have lots to learn from each other. And each church has people that are terrific and people that are living lies. Each church is surely doing something wrong or contrary to God's desires - just because we are all sinners and we all make mistakes. I have Catholic friends, athiest friends, Holy roller friends, and pagan friends. We have way more in common than we have different.

[Erica in PA]

I'm not so sure. Explaining why the doctrine of your church would not accept Catholics as saved is a very different expression from, "Catholics aren't Christians." One opens a discussion with sharing a POV, the other shuts it down with exclusion. I have seen it clearly expressed (though not here) that Catholics were not Christian and I think those who said such things meant exactly what they were saying.

 

That said, I think there's likely some scriptural support for the doctrine you explained (although I'd probably debate you on it :D) but none at all for the idea that Catholics aren't Christian. Be awfully hard since there were no Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox folk when most of the authors of the NT were sitting down to dictate or write their letters. :)

 

Hmmm... while different groups such as Catholic or Protestant didn't exist at the time the Bible was written, it is clear that the writers of Scripture described two groups of people: believers and unbelievers. There are no unsaved Christians in the Bible. So to say that it's okay to say that you don't think Catholics are saved, but not okay to say that they aren't Christians... I don't quite understand that. In my understanding of Scripture, being saved is what makes you a Christian. So an unsaved person is not a Christian.