Exactly HOW is Catholic not Christian?

[WishboneDawn]

I believe the wrong path is one that is not found in the Bible. I can't find the sinner's prayer anywhere in the Bible. I also can't ignore the passages that say we are to be baptized. I also can't find any examples of early Christians or the Apostles in the Bible praying to Mary or other saints. I can't find anyone other than God or Jesus forgiving sins. I haven't found where God promises wealth to every believer.

 

What always stops me there is that the earliest Christians didn't have our Bible. What made it into the Bible is a reflection of their traditions and debates. So that can make it hard, for me at least, to condemn denominations that have extra-biblical teachings or traditions. At one point it was ALL extra-biblical and yet those earliest Christians were still Christians, weren't they? :) Now t I think of it that probably has a lot to do with my personal parting of thought with sola scriptura doctrines.

 

Interesting stuff, all of it.

[Barb_]

There are no unsaved Christians in the Bible. So to say that it's okay to say that you don't think Catholics are saved, but not okay to say that they aren't Christians... I don't quite understand that. In my understanding of Scripture, being saved is what makes you a Christian. So an unsaved person is not a Christian.

 

Where in the bible is the word, "saved"?

 

Barb

[LUV2EDU]

Here is an article on this.

 

 

Are Catholics Christian?

 

 

Question: Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.

 

Answer: This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?

 

Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").

 

According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).

 

Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.

 

The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).

 

We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.

 

Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.

 

We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!

 

Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.

 

The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.

 

 

Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes.

 

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm

[Heather in Neverland]

Where in the bible is the word, "saved"?

 

Barb

 

The NT mentions this word countless times. A quick search on biblegateway.com brought it up over 50 times.

[WishboneDawn]

Hmmm... while different groups such as Catholic or Protestant didn't exist at the time the Bible was written, it is clear that the writers of Scripture described two groups of people: believers and unbelievers. There are no unsaved Christians in the Bible. So to say that it's okay to say that you don't think Catholics are saved, but not okay to say that they aren't Christians... I don't quite understand that. In my understanding of Scripture, being saved is what makes you a Christian. So an unsaved person is not a Christian.

 

Saying that Catholics aren't Christian communicates none of that thinking you've alluded to, doesn't allow any insight into why you think that or any chance for the accused to debate you. It's simply an exclusionary tactic, a way to close the door in someone's face.

 

The quote I responded to was talking about views of scripture and issues of doctrine which sure, might be leading to the point where a person says, "that's why I don't view you as Christian," but the difference is that it does invite that other person into a discussion where they can argue points or gain a different understanding. The door is opened, some respect for the other person's intelligence is shown and debate is welcome.

 

I may be stretching here and I'm not entirely sure I'm buying my own argument but I do see a difference.

[Erica in PA]

Where in the bible is the word, "saved"?

 

Barb

 

The New Testament mostly talks about people in terms of believer and unbeliever. Then the question is, what is a believer? And the Bible lays out throughout the New Testament what a believer is, what a "believer" believes.

 

As far as the term "saved" goes, if you go to http://www.biblegateway.com and put in the word and find lots of places where it is used in the New Testament. I'm sure a google search could explain better than I can why that term has become such a popular term. But I believe that what is meant by saved is the same as what is meant by "believer."

[WishboneDawn]

The NT mentions this word countless times. A quick search on biblegateway.com brought it up over 50 times.

 

I think the more-to-the-point question is where is the glossary at the end of the Bible that explains exactly what salvation entails? I'm betting that if there were as clear an answer as some maintain we wouldn't have spent 2000 years arguing about it and splitting off into countless denominations.

[WishboneDawn]

Here is an article on this.

 

That is helpful in learning why some assert Catholics aren't Christian. No way I'd pass that link on to a Catholic friend though. :)

[Barb_]

The NT mentions this word countless times. A quick search on biblegateway.com brought it up over 50 times.

 

Yes but where does the bible parse the word saved in the protestant context of "born again" vs the Catholic context of the sacrements of baptism and confirmation. "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved..."

 

John 10:9

 

Catholics believe the sacraments are all one needs (and FWIW, deeds were taught as a backup, not a highway to salvation). The word "saved" in the context of an altar call just isn't emphasized in the Catholic faith.

 

Barb

[Erica in PA]

I think the more-to-the-point question is where is the glossary at the end of the Bible that explains exactly what salvation entails? I'm betting that if there were as clear an answer as some maintain we wouldn't have spent 2000 years arguing about it and splitting off into countless denominations.

 

I disagree with that. I am extremely, eternally grateful that God has made the plan of salvation plain and clear in the Bible. Sure, there are areas where people disagree on doctrine here and there, but God's Word is not to blame.

[LUV2EDU]

Where in the bible is the word, "saved"?

 

Barb

 

John 3:17

 

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

 

(Luke 19:10)

 

Jesus declared, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

 

 

(Acts 4:12)

 

St. Peter stated, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".

 

etc, etc.

[Barb_]

The New Testament mostly talks about people in terms of believer and unbeliever. Then the question is, what is a believer? And the Bible lays out throughout the New Testament what a believer is, what a "believer" believes.

 

As far as the term "saved" goes, if you go to http://www.biblegateway.com and put in the word and find lots of places where it is used in the New Testament. I'm sure a google search could explain better than I can why that term has become such a popular term. But I believe that what is meant by saved is the same as what is meant by "believer."

 

Yes, that is the point I was making (albeit, badly). In the Catholic faith, one needs only be Baptized in the faith and then confirmed at adulthood to be a believer. I was taught that good works support faith and commitment, but never that good works are the way to salvation. You can *lose* salvation by dying in a state of mortal sin, but there is no way to salvation outside of the sacraments, according to the church.

 

Point being, the word "saved" is tossed around primarily outside the Catholic church. Which is why Heather's dh had trouble placing it in his childhood memories.

 

Barb

[Erica in PA]

Yes but where does the bible parse the word saved in the protestant context of "born again" vs the Catholic context of the sacrements of baptism and confirmation. "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved..."

 

John 10:9

 

Catholics believe the sacraments are all one needs (and FWIW, deeds were taught as a backup, not a highway to salvation). The word "saved" in the context of an altar call just isn't emphasized in the Catholic faith.

 

Barb

 

Are you asking a question, or simply making a point yourself? I'd be happy to clarify if you're asking me a question, but I don't want to get into a debate on this point. My original point in posting was not to debate whether or not Catholics are Christians, but merely to point out that the answer to that question is a doctrinal one, not one based on personal attack. Whenever this topic comes up, the conversation always seems to go toward how awful and judgmental people are who hold this view, and I do not believe this is true generally.

[Barb_]

I think the more-to-the-point question is where is the glossary at the end of the Bible that explains exactly what salvation entails? I'm betting that if there were as clear an answer as some maintain we wouldn't have spent 2000 years arguing about it and splitting off into countless denominations.

 

:iagree: Making the same point.

 

Barb

[Carol in Cal.]

I'd say James is pretty clear on the topic of works as a way to salvation. It is at odds with Paul's epistles (the source of salvation by faith) and I often think it really interesting, especially when thinking about all the centuries of trouble the question of salvation caused Christians, why James was stuck in the Bible to begin with. You'd almost think the Bible wasn't supposed to be about the answers but rather about asking questions...

 

Regardless, the question is important and caused centuries of trouble because at the heart of it, it's a question about God's power. If we can be saved by works alone then that means we can be responsible for our own salvation and what does that say about the role and power of Jesus? If we can be saved by faith alone that means we can be excused from works and what does that say about the power of God's goodness?

 

I have a friend who's a minister and he boils it down to this - Are we saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ or the faith IN Jesus Christ? By the demand of faith to live as Jesus lived or the demand of faith to believe in Jesus? I suspect most Christians would feel that to some degree it's both.

 

Both James and Paul teach that works of kindness/morality/physically helping others are necessary. Neither teaches that they are necessary to get salvation, though; just a necessary response to being saved. Paul teaches that the rituals of the law are not necessary since Christ has fulfilled the law. Those are the 'works' that he refers to in context in his epistles.

[Shelly in the Country]

I haven't read all of the responses yet, but I just wanted to add to the discussion (if it hasn't been brought up already) that the differences between Protestants and Catholics can be delineated clearly during the time of the Reformation. Of course, modern Protestant denominations can vary widely in their beliefs, but if you want a clear distinction between the two you should read the writings of the Protestant Reformers for the Protestant side and the Council of Trent (?) for the Catholic side. As for backing up what each side believes with Scripture, etc....

 

This get hairy, because as I understand it (and I'm a Protestant, so please forgive me if I miss a nuance of the Catholic side of the story) we Protestants hold to Sola Scriptura. This means that we theoretically get all of our beliefs from Scripture alone. We Protestants see in Scripture that we are "saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Rough quote. We believe our "righteousness is as filthy rags", that "no one does good, no not one". So, we believe in order to be reconciled to God, Christ, the "second Adam" died for us and His perfect righteousness is imputed to us. So the five Solas of the Reformation are Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria. We believe in Scripture alone. That we are saved by faith alone, because of grace alone, through Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. Now we Christians sometimes define "Christian" as being one who is saved. So, if a particular Protestant believes that a Catholic person doesn't meet the criteria for belief to be saved, they may say that Catholic is not a "Christian". To a Protestant, we can do no "good" to save ourselves, so anyone who says they can do "good" raises red flags.

 

Now as I understand it, Catholics also believe they are saved through Christ alone, but they believe that Christ's death gives them the opportunity to be "infused" with His righteousness, enabling them to do good. To complicate matters further, Catholics do not hold to Sola Scriptura, but rather believe the Church is sort of like an ongoing source of revelation. Now this can sound like a word game sometimes to some people. I definitely see where there are real and very important differences. I am Protestant, and I am Protestant for a reason. However, I cannot know another man (or woman's) heart. Only God can. I hesitate to place one who claims Christ and Him crucified to be outside Christianity. I may disagree strongly on the Catholic belief in the Magisterium of the Church, but I also disagree with many fellow Protestants strongly on other equally central issues, yet I would never dream of calling them "non-Christians" because of it. I understand totally the concern some Protestants have over whether or not a Catholic individual believes they are "working" their way to God, but the Catholic friends that I have firmly believe in their own sinfulness and inability to please God without Christ and His work.

 

I hope my rambling made some sense. I'm recovering from a bad cold and I cannot guarantee coherency at this point.

[Veritaserum]

I think anyone who claims Christ as their Savior is a Christian. That includes Catholics. :)

[stripe]

Our priest (Catholic, btw) said in his homily today that Catholics are the most educated of all the Christian faiths, but that they are the least educated about their own faith of all the faiths. (He said there were studies to back that up.) He criticized Catholics for thinking that once they graduate from high school, their "Church" learning is done.

I heard a rabbi (it might have been Schmuley Boteach) say the same thing about Jews after their bar mitzvah, i.e. their religious education went no further than that.

 

From what I understood there used to be a general anti-Catholic bias in this country, e.g. anti-Catholic aspects of the Klan, the anxiety about electing JFK, and so on, so I heard this (not from people actually saying this, mind you, but discussing it) in real life.

[Dobela]

I think the more-to-the-point question is where is the glossary at the end of the Bible that explains exactly what salvation entails? I'm betting that if there were as clear an answer as some maintain we wouldn't have spent 2000 years arguing about it and splitting off into countless denominations.

Well, I believe that at the end of the first gospel sermon (Acts 20) we are clearly told that we are to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2: 38). It later says that over 3000 were added to the church that day. Then in the books/letters following, the Apostles and others are writing to churches and groups of Christians that grew after that and answering those questions of "now what?" and "how do we handle this situation?" and "can we still do this?" Jesus used the term "born again" in the book of John (chapter 3) and said "Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God." In 1 Peter 1, the Christians are referred to as those who have been born again.

 

But again, born again means different things to different groups of Christians. I call myself Christian only. Others will call themselves Born Again Believers, and others Born Again Christians. In the churches I am familiar with, those most likely to call themselves born again are the more evangelical ones (or the ones that call themselves evangelical).

[Erica in PA]

Yes, that is the point I was making (albeit, badly). In the Catholic faith, one needs only be Baptized in the faith and then confirmed at adulthood to be a believer. I was taught that good works support faith and commitment, but never that good works are the way to salvation. You can *lose* salvation by dying in a state of mortal sin, but there is no way to salvation outside of the sacraments, according to the church.

 

Point being, the word "saved" is tossed around primarily outside the Catholic church. Which is why Heather's dh had trouble placing it in his childhood memories.

 

Barb

 

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. I'm sorry I misunderstood before. The one thing I would point out is that many Protestants would consider taking sacraments into the "works" category. In other words, saying that if you think baptism and the sacraments will justify you before God, then you are relying on those things that you have done in conjunction with the church, and not on Christ alone. But yes, it is true that the term saved is used primarily by Protestants.

[Dobela]

I heard a rabbi (it might have been Schmuley Boteach) say the same thing about Jews after their bar mitzvah, i.e. their religious education went no further than that.

 

From what I understood there used to be a general anti-Catholic bias in this country, e.g. anti-Catholic aspects of the Klan, the anxiety about electing JFK, and so on, so I heard this (not from people actually saying this, mind you, but discussing it) in real life.

My grandfather said he didn't want JFk to be president at the time. My grandfather was not Catholic but understood that the Catholics believed that the Pope was God on earth and must be obeyed/followed. His concern was that JFK would only do what the Pope wanted not what the American people wanted. I don't know how much of this was true at the time, or if it really relates to Catholics today and how they now view the Pope or if it has changed at all.

[Barb_]

Are you asking a question, or simply making a point yourself? I'd be happy to clarify if you're asking me a question, but I don't want to get into a debate on this point. My original point in posting was not to debate whether or not Catholics are Christians, but merely to point out that the answer to that question is a doctrinal one, not one based on personal attack. Whenever this topic comes up, the conversation always seems to go toward how awful and judgmental people are who hold this view, and I do not believe this is true generally.

 

No, not asking a question. I think I was quoting your post to make a general point. That's always a dangerous thing to do ;) particularly when I don't really believe all the nonsense regarding the One True Faith...although I think it's ironic when some circles don't even consider it Christian. I posted mostly to defend Heather's dh :lol:

 

Barb

[Erica in PA]

I posted mostly to defend Heather's dh :lol:

 

Barb

 

LOL, okay, I get it now. :001_smile:

[Barb_]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. I'm sorry I misunderstood before. The one thing I would point out is that many Protestants would consider taking sacraments into the "works" category. In other words, saying that if you think baptism and the sacraments will justify you before God, then you are relying on those things that you have done in conjunction with the church, and not on Christ alone. But yes, it is true that the term saved is used primarily by Protestants.

 

No, no. If you misunderstood the fault was entirely mine, helped along by Margaritas to Die For. My darling son tossed a bottle of organic lime juice in the cart at Sprouts yesterday and well, I had to do SOMETHING with it :D

 

Barb

[Erica in PA]

No, no. If you misunderstood the fault was entirely mine, helped along by Margaritas to Die For. My darling son tossed a bottle of organic lime juice in the cart at Sprouts yesterday and well, I had to do SOMETHING with it :D

 

Barb

 

LOL! :party:

[Murphy101]

So for me, therein lies the big issue....according to catholics, how is one "saved".....how does one get into heaven? He said he "thinks" that they believe if you are baptized as an infant then you are going to heaven.

 

well now.. saved from what?

 

we can't be saved from sin.. we're humans with faulty wisdom and free will, sin is always an uphill battle for us lowly creatures

 

from hell? we can't do anything to earn heaven, we can only have faith in His mercy, and do our best to know, love, and serve him while living here.

 

some would say we are being saved from death, but that's debatable. are we alive in hell? and if not - is hell a punishment?

 

catholics say hell is simply separation from God (possibly including fire and brimstone, but that's not what makes it hell) and our sins separate us from God.

 

catholics would bank on a merciful Godly father and think most of us aren't bad enough to get an instant one-way ticket to hell and most of us aren't good enough to get a quick trip straight to heaven - so most of us end up purifying our souls in purgatory (which is NOT the same as hell) for a bit. (some of us call it God's waiting room:))

 

sacraments (baptism, eucharist, confirmation, penance) give us santifying grace. such god given graces clean our souls of sin, give us strength not to repeat those sins, to live godly lives, and to know, love and serve God.

 

does that make one "saved"?

 

Half of my father's family is Catholic. I attended a Catholic school for a couple years. After school one day I was out somewhere in my uniform and a well meaning "Christian" informed me I was going to hell because I worshiped Mary. Little did he know *I* wasn't Catholic.

 

ug. makes me wish I could afford to lug around catholic pamplets like those horrid chick tracts. a catholic version that would say "errors ignorant people have about catholics" that I could just hand to such people and walk away...:glare:

 

One thing that I think is important to remember is that it is not meant to be an insult,

 

no, it's intended to be an insult and they know it. Not once have I ever heard someone call another person unchristian and not know it was an insult.

 

My questions would be:

 

Did you ever do a Bible study with your pastor? Did you ask your pastor about that particular passage?

 

In the RC church Gospels are on a three year cycle for Sundays. Maybe the person wasn't there that Sunday? :D Maybe they were "ready" to "hear" what they heard from your dh until your dh said it.

 

yeah. everytime I hear someone claim the catholic church doesn't want parishoners to know the bible, I know they must be a bit ignorant of the catholic faith. We go through the entire bible every year if you attend mass daily and in 3 years if you only attend on Sunday. There's missels with it all laid out, the bibles have it all laid out. It couldn't be any easier for any person walking in the doors to hear or read.

 

On what basis can one say, "that is the wrong path?"

 

well I'd say any path not catholic is iffy at best.:lol:

I'll understand if most disagree with me.;)

 

however the real question is does it matter?

if by "the wrong path" you mean anyone on a certain path will get an instant ticket to hell? You are flat out not going to get an answer from me, and I hope no other catholic either, because we cannot limit God's mercy - even for those that appear to us humans to be doing their best to get a hot seat after death.

 

if you simply mean any path that doesn't appear to lead to heaven?

well again, I'd have to say any path not Catholic.

because if I didn't believe that - well now I wouldn't have become Catholic would I?

 

now, I'm not asking these questions to be snarky (dh says I sound that way) but as a sincere question.

 

and might I add, that I think this has been a very civil and enlightening discussion? very enjoyable to be able to speak honestly and still all be in good humor.:001_smile:

[TXMomof4]

 

I have a friend who's a minister and he boils it down to this - Are we saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ or the faith IN Jesus Christ? By the demand of faith to live as Jesus lived or the demand of faith to believe in Jesus? I suspect most Christians would feel that to some degree it's both.

 

We're studying Galatians right now and the translation of this section is really interesting when you look at the original Greek.

 

2:15

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

 

The first and third "faith in Jesus Christ" is literally "the faith of Jesus Christ". The middle on is our faith in Christ Jesus. The faith of Christ is our salvation - by our faith in His faith.

 

Just thought that was an interesting point.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My questions would be:

 

Did you ever do a Bible study with your pastor? Did you ask your pastor about that particular passage?

 

In the RC church Gospels are on a three year cycle for Sundays. Maybe the person wasn't there that Sunday? :D Maybe they were "ready" to "hear" what they heard from your dh until your dh said it.

 

Different priests and/or pastors stick closer to the text than others. I've been to mass and the entire homily did not mention the Bible once. I've been to Protestant services where the sermon or whatever they called it, did not mention the Bible either. My Christian university's "university church" had a pastor who preached on the Golden Rule - every single Sunday. There just wasn't a lot of teaching there. So that is the background that many of these people are coming from.

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Spy Car]

If you think you are asking a group of people who have no feelings, so you may confront someone you care about and not hurt their feelings, then think again.

 

On a different discussion board that I had always thought was generally ecumenical I was told in no uncertain terms that Catholics were not free to defend that they were Christian or biblical. Your question may have been innocent, but some of the responses aren't, and I'm sick to my stomach over some of them.

 

And that's why I gave this thread one star.

 

If it helps in any way, know there is not the smallest sliver of doubt in my mind that Catholics are Christians :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Audrey]

Thank you for the information -- especially the links. It has helped illuminate the issue for me.

 

Also, thanks for keeping it pretty civil. :D

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I have been taught that church doctrine is determined from scripture 3 ways: command, example, and inference.

 

Example: Jesus was baptized, Paul was baptized, Ethiopian Eunich was baptized, and many, many, even thousands more.

 

Command: Peter commanded people to be baptized "for the remission of sins." Acts 2:38. Jesus commanded the apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..... and teaching them to obey." Matthew 28:19

 

Inference: "and this water symbolizes baptism, that now saves you also---not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Christ..." 1 Peter3:21

 

"Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." Romans 6:3-5

Edited April 27, 2009 by Virginia Dawn

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

people who avoid my friendship and forbid their children to get too chummy with mine because we're Catholic.

 

That is INSANE! :cursing: I seriously can not say what I am really thinking right now. I am so so sorry that you have had to be persecuted in this way.

[Heather in Neverland]

I posted mostly to defend Heather's dh :lol:

 

Barb

 

:lol: He'll appreciate that!

[Heather in Neverland]

If you think you are asking a group of people who have no feelings, so you may confront someone you care about and not hurt their feelings, then think again.

 

On a different discussion board that I had always thought was generally ecumenical I was told in no uncertain terms that Catholics were not free to defend that they were Christian or biblical. Your question may have been innocent, but some of the responses aren't, and I'm sick to my stomach over some of them.

 

I'm tired of hearing this question every month or two at this board. I'm tired of the answers. I'm tired of the willful misinformation and the prejudice. I'm tired of seeing it in Protestant homeschooling books. I'm tired of being slapped in the face with it at our state homeschooling convention, our countywide support group, and people who avoid my friendship and forbid their children to get too chummy with mine because we're Catholic.

 

It's like "what about socialization?" times 10,000,000. If you're going to question someone's salvation, then check the archives first before punching us in the stomach yet again.

 

And that's why I gave this thread one star.

 

Laura, I am so sorry that you have been hurt by this prejudice in the past. Many of us know what it is like to be the only one of a certain kind in a group. For instance, I am a mother who works full time outside the home and I LIKE it and I have been scorned by SAHMs many times. I am also a public school educator who home schools her own kids...imagine how my coworkers feel about that. And I was the lone McCain bumber sticker in a parking lot full of Obama during the election.

 

Many of us have been there. Having said that, if another thread came up about working moms vs. SAHMs, and if it was handled as civily as this thread has been with people from different perspectives discussing their point of view without mudslinging, I would be fine with that.

 

I would rather people keep discussing these hard topics in a civil manner as I hope it will eventually help us understand each other better. :grouphug:

[Heather in Neverland]

well now.. saved from what?

 

we can't be saved from sin.. we're humans with faulty wisdom and free will, sin is always an uphill battle for us lowly creatures

 

from hell? we can't do anything to earn heaven, we can only have faith in His mercy, and do our best to know, love, and serve him while living here.

 

some would say we are being saved from death, but that's debatable. are we alive in hell? and if not - is hell a punishment?

 

catholics say hell is simply separation from God (possibly including fire and brimstone, but that's not what makes it hell) and our sins separate us from God.

 

catholics would bank on a merciful Godly father and think most of us aren't bad enough to get an instant one-way ticket to hell and most of us aren't good enough to get a quick trip straight to heaven - so most of us end up purifying our souls in purgatory (which is NOT the same as hell) for a bit. (some of us call it God's waiting room:))

 

sacraments (baptism, eucharist, confirmation, penance) give us santifying grace. such god given graces clean our souls of sin, give us strength not to repeat those sins, to live godly lives, and to know, love and serve God.

 

does that make one "saved"?

 

 

 

Thank you for that info. I have never heard it put that clearly before. I confess that this Baptist girl is drawn to the beauty of the Catholic service. :D Can I ask another question? How does Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross fit into the information above?

[chaik76]

That is INSANE! :cursing: I seriously can not say what I am really thinking right now. I am so so sorry that you have had to be persecuted in this way.

 

Yep, this happens to me too (I'm Eastern Orthodox). It's been a long, uphill battle in our town and homeschool group...

[asta]

You'd almost think the Bible wasn't supposed to be about the answers but rather about asking questions...

 

 

:)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not intended as a slam.. i.e. "Catholics aren't even CHRISTIANS!!":boxing_smiley: It's more "I don't believe that Catholic doctrine is true to the Scriptures, and sadly, I don't believe that the plan of salvation being taught there leads to eternal life." It's a belief based on theology and the Bible, not on a desire to offend. Though, as I said above, I totally understand why that belief can be offensive.

 

I find this interesting, as the Roman Catholic Church is/was responsible for putting together (eg: editing & compiling) the first bible.

 

Here is an article on this.

 

 

Are Catholics Christian?

 

 

 

We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.

 

Actually, there are no "daily sacrifices" on any Catholic altar: there is the offering of bread and wine as a means of communion with God. This practice existed in the "early" church as well.

 

Mary and the saints are not "applied" to, nor, contrary to the belief of many, are they "prayed" to: All of the saints (and Mary, the mother of God), are there to remind Catholics of how people on earth truly sacrificed for their faith/the faith. They are considered "good examples".

 

The "communion of the saints" is the concept that a person who is struggling with an issue that is similar to something a saint dealt with, may look to that saint as an example of how to proceed in their own life. The saint isn't thought to be "mediating" between the human on earth and god; when "intercession" is asked, it is exactly that - "an interposing or pleading on behalf of another person" - a person on earth praying to god for something, and ALSO asking someone else (who happens to be dead) to do so as well. Think: prayer group.

 

As to the bible proclaiming Christ as the only mediator, that is definitely a difference in view. Christ said "You are Peter, and upon this rock I build my Church". (apologies if I missed something there - I don't have a searchable bible on my desktop) With the bonus double entendre of Peter meaning rock in Greek. Catholics see Peter as the first Pope, and have an unbroken line of Popes who have followed him. They believe that the Holy Spirit has guided this process and unbroken line.

 

We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!

 

Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes.

 

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm

 

Again, what? If the Catholic Church was the one that wrote the bible (transcribed into a tidy book, edited, et al.) how does this author justify his claim of it being a "false" gospel?

 

Now as I understand it, Catholics also believe they are saved through Christ alone, but they believe that Christ's death gives them the opportunity to be "infused" with His righteousness, enabling them to do good. To complicate matters further, Catholics do not hold to Sola Scriptura, but rather believe the Church is sort of like an ongoing source of revelation.

 

I have never heard of the concept of "infused righteousness", and I lived with a Catholic theologian. Not to say that some non-Catholics don't see Catholics in this manner - just that I've never run across it.

 

Catholics do not hold to the Sola Scriptura concept because of what I mentioned about Peter.

 

Different priests and/or pastors stick closer to the text than others. I've been to mass and the entire homily did not mention the Bible once. I've been to Protestant services where the sermon or whatever they called it, did not mention the Bible either. My Christian university's "university church" had a pastor who preached on the Golden Rule - every single Sunday. There just wasn't a lot of teaching there. So that is the background that many of these people are coming from.

 

Priests do not often mention the bible; deacons and lectors do the biblical readings during mass (usually) and then the Priest expounds upon the reading in his homily.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

asta

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I wonder this.....

 

For people who don't believe Catholics are "true Christians"...do they believe Methodists are "true Christians"?

[Laura K (NC)]

deleted by author.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Laura, I am sorry you are so upset, but I posted a legitimate question that was in no way an opinion.

 

The reason I asked this question is because my husband's family is Methodist. We say the Apostle's Creed in church. The same one I remember as a kid, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins..."

 

I am trying to figure out if my husband's family and their church is another group under attack by whatever brand(s) of Christianity is negative toward the Catholic faith. That is why I asked the question.

 

I was truly not trying to offend you or anyone. My grandparents were from Ireland. My grandfather was Catholic and my grandmother was Protestant. Not hard to understand why they immigrated, huh?

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I wonder this.....

 

For people who don't believe Catholics are "true Christians"...do they believe Methodists are "true Christians"?

 

 

Quite often the answer is no. Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, and many other Protestant groups (not to mention other groups such as the Orthodox churches and LDS) also get classified as not "Christian."

 

Quite frankly I have lost track as to who is or is not "officially" christian. The answer varies from person to person. I'm not sure the definition is even wholly scriptural but I think there is also a cultural aspect to it as well. Occasionally it seems to border on being as simple as we are and you aren't.

[asta]

Quite often the answer is no. Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, and many other Protestant groups (not to mention other groups such as the Orthodox churches and LDS) also get classified as not "Christian."

 

Now I am totally confused.

 

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was all there was until 1054, at which time the Schism occurred and the RCC and the Orthodox Church split.

 

Luther posted his theses in 1517, which led to his split from the RCC, and the Church of England followed suit in 1529. The Orthodox have remained without splits.

 

 

asta

[Lizzie in Ma]

http://

 

To be fair, I spent quite a while on a Roman Catholic discussion board (www.catholic.com) and heard multiple times that non-Roman Catholic Christians were not really fully Christian and only had their hope of salvation through the extent to which they agreed with the "True Church", so this is not a one-way street of marginalization.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm

 

I know that to be true, my very Catholic MIL despairs about dh and I for two reasons. That our marriage (of 18 years) isn't legal because it wasn't performed in the RC church and also because our children were not baptized as infants in it. She thinks our Baptist church is a cult.

[Erica in PA]

I wonder this.....

 

For people who don't believe Catholics are "true Christians"...do they believe Methodists are "true Christians"?

 

It depends on their definition of what makes a Christian. If it's "believing that Christ alone for salvation, with no regard to works," and *if* a particular Methodist, or Lutheran, or Baptist, or any denomination, believes that there is something you must do to contribute to your own salvation, then no, according to that definition that person would not be a Christian, no matter what church they go to. That is why I have been saying that it's not about *Catholics* to most evangelical Christians, and it does not come from a base dislike of Catholics as a group... it's about the definition of a Christian, and that based on their understanding of God's plan of salvation.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Now I am totally confused.

 

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was all there was until 1054, at which time the Schism occurred and the RCC and the Orthodox Church split.

 

Luther posted his theses in 1517, which led to his split from the RCC, and the Church of England followed suit in 1529. The Orthodox have remained without splits.

 

 

asta

 

 

I guess you will have to have someone who is Orthodox weigh in on this. I do not know if, for example, the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches are ultimately the same or if there are differences beyond just language.

[Michele B]

It is not quite correct to say it was the Roman Catholic Church until 1054. Better to say it was the Undivided Church and it split into the Roman catholic and Eastern Orthodox branches.

Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura. That is true. They believe in a trifold system of Scripture, Holy Tradition and Reason. Holy Scripture is read and interpreted in the light of Holy Tradition and God-given Reason. To determine what is Catholic, we look at what has been believed by all people, in all places, in all times. This is crucial for me. There are many Catholics who do not know their faith. One cannot judge the Catholic faith on the testimony of uneducated Catholics. One looks at the witness of the Catholic faith over the centuries (all people all times all places) If there are corrupt practices or false teachings in a place and a time- that stands out against Holy Tradition. We cannot re-intepret Scriptures according to political correctness or personal preferences. We must read them in the context of Holy Tradition. When I read the Bible, I am reading it yes with the help of the Holy Ghost, but how can my sinful nature not influence my interpretation? I measure against Holy Tradition. St Augustine himself does not always measure up well against Holy Tradition and so many of his writings cannot be taken as revelation.

Catholics and the Orthodox have a long history - they have prayers and liturgies that have ministered to people in all times and many places. More attention should be paid to what they have done right over the centuries than what human fallibility has done wrong in the name of religion.

I have been told recently that I worship Mary and not Jesus. If I believe "blessed are you when they persecute you," then I should be pretty happy! :D When catholics and orthodox are called names, we need to join our suffering with Jesus' and smile and humbly explain as best we can. I do not Worship Mary. Catholic practice specifically forbids this. Pray means to ask ( bieten, Bede, Beg, bid). I ask for the prayers of Mary and other Sainst in heaven in the same spirit I ask for the prayers of my catholic and baptist friends - we are all part of the body of Christ and the Body of Christ prays to God for one another. Dead people are still the Body of Christ, right?;)

Catholics do not talk about when they were saved. They believe they are being saved. The Sacraments are channels of grace. Infusions of Grace. Way bread along the Journey. Incidently, when I was little in the foothills of North Georgia, my rural Baptist great-aunts would argue among themselves about Baptism. Most believed it was necessary for salvation. And I promise you, they had never spoken to a Catholic in their lives!:D . The Church is always in need of reform because as humans, we muck things up. There were always reformers in the Church. And there are today. I don't know if I have added to the discussion or the confusion.

 

Catholics don't see the argument between faith and works. They are never separated in the Catholic mind. We take Paul and James together; we take works and faith together. I think some of the misinformation about Catholics and salvation comes from catholics who are put on the spot and have never before known that there was a debate between the two. Faith and works are hand in glove. They are never separated. They never trump one another. They are never in conflict. So to ask a Catholic "faith or works?" Is to ask in another language.

 

I would love to answer any specific questions or defend anything I have written. Sometimes the problem is the language. I was raised by godly baptists and have godly baptist friends. We agree on so much.

When my aunt told me that Jesus died for my sins so I did not have to live under the old law anymore like the catholics do - I took it as it was meant. My aunt loves me. Of that I have never doubted. She wants me with her in heaven. She felt she needed to talk to me out of love. Now, I think she was incorrect and I told her. But I am happy to have someone who loves me enough to tell me I am going to hell (to the best of her knowledge). If you really think catholics are going to hell - you have to tell them. But then you need to listen as well. ;)

[mommaduck]

It depends on their definition of what makes a Christian. If it's "believing that Christ alone for salvation, with no regard to works," and *if* a particular Methodist, or Lutheran, or Baptist, or any denomination, believes that there is something you must do to contribute to your own salvation, then no, according to that definition that person would not be a Christian, no matter what church they go to. That is why I have been saying that it's not about *Catholics* to most evangelical Christians, and it does not come from a base dislike of Catholics as a group... it's about the definition of a Christian, and that based on their understanding of God's plan of salvation.

The thing is, most of those people have been ill informed of WHAT a Catholic, and the Catholic church, actually believe in regards to salvation. Presumptions have been made and false information passed around.

[Danestress]

I do think that any time you invite people to share what they really believe about other faiths and practices, there is potential for a lot of hurt feelings. Since we can learn the answers to these questions by reading elsewhere, I question the wisdom of asking a bunch of women to share with the group their true beliefs about who is "right" religiously. Is the only way to God through Christ? Every Christian has a response to that question, but is it really helpful to even open that can of worms on a mixed board like this? The Christians who believe the answer is "yes" end up being called some variation of "bigot" or "closed minded" but they are answering honestly based on how they interpret scripture.

 

That said, I think Catholics give offense at times too - by giving perfectly legitimate opinions which offend even though they aren't meant to do so. What you or I honestly believes can be a bitter pill for the other to swallow. For example, the time that you shared that Methodist church would be 'meaningless' to you and that you would just stay home rather than attend something with no meaning. That's a fair and legitimate expression of your own beliefs and opinions, and you are entitled to them. I understood where you are coming from (as an Anglican, we are also centered on Eucharist) but surely you understood when you said that that it was likely to prick at all the Methodists on the board.

 

I do think it's sort of shocking what people believe that Catholics believe that Catholics don't actually believe. I shake my head in disbelief and give you a :grouphug: because it must get really really old seeing those same things said over and over by people who can't be bothered to ask their Catholic friends, "Okay, what do you actually believe about the Pope?" or "What do you actually believe about salvation by faith/works?"