Exactly HOW is Catholic not Christian?

[mommaduck]

Now I am totally confused.

 

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was all there was until 1054, at which time the Schism occurred and the RCC and the Orthodox Church split.

 

Luther posted his theses in 1517, which led to his split from the RCC, and the Church of England followed suit in 1529. The Orthodox have remained without splits.

 

 

asta

There were other schisms as well, all along the way, and these are typically pointed to as "proofs" that the Catholic church was never the sole "church".

[HRAAB]

The reason I asked this question is because my husband's family is Methodist. We say the Apostle's Creed in church. The same one I remember as a kid, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins..."

 

 

 

In the creed it's 'one holy catholic and apostolic church'. Little 'c', not big 'C'. As in universal.

 

And I think this discussion has been very civil. Compared to some personal experiences my family has suffered (picture only Catholic children on a field trip with mainly Fundamentalist Christians) this discussion has been absolutely gracious.

 

Janet

[HRAAB]

I do think that any time you invite people to share what they really believe about other faiths and practices, there is potential for a lot of hurt feelings. Since we can learn the answers to these questions by reading elsewhere, I question the wisdom of asking a bunch of women to share with the group their true beliefs about who is "right" religiously. Is the only way to God through Christ? Every Christian has a response to that question, but is it really helpful to even open that can of worms on a mixed board like this? The Christians who believe the answer is "yes" end up being called some variation of "bigot" or "closed minded" but they are answering honestly based on how they interpret scripture.

 

That said, I think Catholics give offense at times too - by giving perfectly legitimate opinions which offend even though they aren't meant to do so. What you or I honestly believes can be a bitter pill for the other to swallow. For example, the time that you shared that Methodist church would be 'meaningless' to you and that you would just stay home rather than attend something with no meaning. That's a fair and legitimate expression of your own beliefs and opinions, and you are entitled to them. I understood where you are coming from (as an Anglican, we are also centered on Eucharist) but surely you understood when you said that that it was likely to prick at all the Methodists on the board.

 

I do think it's sort of shocking what people believe that Catholics believe that Catholics don't actually believe. I shake my head in disbelief and give you a :grouphug: because it must get really really old seeing those same things said over and over by people who can't be bothered to ask their Catholic friends, "Okay, what do you actually believe about the Pope?" or "What do you actually believe about salvation by faith/works?"

 

:iagree: Personally held beliefs are probably going to offend someone. It goes both ways. I think sometimes it's hard to step back, try to step into someone else's shoes, and understand how certain comments will make them feel. I've witnessed conversations among Catholics that would offend Protestants, yet I know the Catholics didn't mean to offend Protestants. I figure it works the other way, too. The OP's question wasn't offensive; it was genuine. These conversations always seem to be difficult for some.

 

If someone is really interested, perhaps they could borrow a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Vatican II documents from the library. Get the answers from the horses' mouth, so to speak. Then open dialogue with a Catholic if there are more questions, but at least start with accurate information. I know it's much easier to just ask Catholics or 'whatever', but it seems on public message boards it always ends up being a can of worms. Then again it's always easier to have these discussions in person, if you happen to know a Catholic well enough to do so.

 

Janet

[KarenNC]

In the creed it's 'one holy catholic and apostolic church'. Little 'c', not big 'C'. As in universal.

 

Yep. That's what I was taught in the Presbyterian Church and the Episcopal Church (couple other denominations in which I have been involved did not say any of the creeds during service). Same thing in the Nicene Creed.

 

Interesting side point---I have never seen it capitalized in this meaning, but Merriam Webster says that even the capitalized form of Catholic can mean the universal Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic

[asta]

There were other schisms as well, all along the way, and these are typically pointed to as "proofs" that the Catholic church was never the sole "church".

 

I've read a bit about the "little" schisms. What I don't find is where any of them, prior to the split between the East and the West (and then, of course, Luther) actually amounted to anything (meaning, the leaders of the splits don't appear to have been able to perpetuate their differences beyond themselves and a few adherents).

 

But I certainly know I can be wrong, as my theologic background is not that detailed.

 

 

asta

[asta]

If someone is really interested, perhaps they could borrow a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Vatican II documents from the library. Get the answers from the horses' mouth, so to speak.

 

Janet

 

Or go to the Holy See's website! It is a great research tool.

 

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

 

asta

[mommaduck]

I've read a bit about the "little" schisms. What I don't find is where any of them, prior to the split between the East and the West (and then, of course, Luther) actually amounted to anything (meaning, the leaders of the splits don't appear to have been able to perpetuate their differences beyond themselves and a few adherents).

 

But I certainly know I can be wrong, as my theologic background is not that detailed.

 

 

asta

 

Good point, but like I said, it's what is used by others ;) Some of the similarities within those sects though (day of worship, baptism beliefs) run very similar. So it's more like, as a few small sects do nowadays, they have fed off of each other and thus, though differing groups at staggering times, still retain a similar belief.

Edited April 27, 2009 by mommaduck

[KarenNC]

If someone is really interested, perhaps they could borrow a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Vatican II documents from the library.

 

You don't even have to go to the library---this is all readily available online, and at the Vatican's own website no less (can't get much closer to the horse's mouth than that :D).

 

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm Vatican website

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/index.htm

Code of Canon Law

Bible

Catechism

Second Vatican Council documents

 

There are also all the newer documents, best searched from the homepage of the website or using the site map.

[KarenNC]

Yep, this happens to me too (I'm Eastern Orthodox). It's been a long, uphill battle in our town and homeschool group...

 

Us, too. Unfortunately, happens to a lot of us for a lot of varied reasons. Have to say that Neopagan Unitarian Universalists aren't usually welcomed with wide open arms (much less understood) in many homeschooling circles in the South. As for folks having odd conceptions about what we do and believe.............;)

Edited April 27, 2009 by KarenNC

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

It depends on their definition of what makes a Christian. If it's "believing that Christ alone for salvation, with no regard to works," and *if* a particular Methodist, or Lutheran, or Baptist, or any denomination, believes that there is something you must do to contribute to your own salvation, then no, according to that definition that person would not be a Christian, no matter what church they go to. That is why I have been saying that it's not about *Catholics* to most evangelical Christians, and it does not come from a base dislike of Catholics as a group... it's about the definition of a Christian, and that based on their understanding of God's plan of salvation.

 

Wow.

 

Well, I am glad I'm not a Christian to these people then. I have a Catholic background, I married a Methodist, and when I have the choice as to where *I* want to go church I pick the Unitarian church. And I know how many fundamentalist Christians feel about Unitarians.

 

I would rather be considered a non-Christian than to think I had the ability to understand God's plan. But then again I really don't believe that God has a plan, because I don't believe in God as a personified being. When I think of "God's plan" I think more about seeking harmony and enlightenment, peace and joy.

[calandalsmom]

If you think you are asking a group of people who have no feelings, so you may confront someone you care about and not hurt their feelings, then think again.

 

On a different discussion board that I had always thought was generally ecumenical I was told in no uncertain terms that Catholics were not free to defend that they were Christian or biblical. Your question may have been innocent, but some of the responses aren't, and I'm sick to my stomach over some of them.

 

I'm tired of hearing this question every month or two at this board. I'm tired of the answers. I'm tired of the willful misinformation and the prejudice. I'm tired of seeing it in Protestant homeschooling books. I'm tired of being slapped in the face with it at our state homeschooling convention, our countywide support group, and people who avoid my friendship and forbid their children to get too chummy with mine because we're Catholic.

 

It's like "what about socialization?" times 10,000,000. If you're going to question someone's salvation, then check the archives first before punching us in the stomach yet again.

 

And that's why I gave this thread one star.

 

All of this, plus Im tired of being the target of evangelism by people (and their children!!) who want to "save" us catholics.

[HRAAB]

You don't even have to go to the library---this is all readily available online, and at the Vatican's own website no less (can't get much closer to the horse's mouth than that :D).

 

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm Vatican website

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/index.htm

Code of Canon Law

Bible

Catechism

Second Vatican Council documents

 

There are also all the newer documents, best searched from the homepage of the website or using the site map.

 

So true. I just am one of those people that needs to hold a book; helps the brain function. I don't have any idea how I've survived this long.

 

Janet

[mrsrevmeg]

 

Here is a link to some information from John MacArthur. There is too much information to put into a comment, plus he says it more eloquently (and less offensively) than I could Hope this could be helpful to you.

[Nestof3]

I would never say Catholics are not Christians, but they apparently follow a lot of traditions and teachings that are not Biblical. I think if people put their church teachings and traditions aside and just read the Bible, things would be much clearer. Jesus even spoke against traditions of men. For example, the whole notion at one time that only those in leadership could understand scripture and should therefore read it and study it is contrary to Scripture itself.

 

Christians are to pray to God directly -- to come to His throne for mercy and grace -- not a priest and not Mary. She was a mere woman -- Jesus never spoke to her as though she were anything other. If He went around praising her, you would think the disciples would have mentioned it.

 

We are to confess our sins one to another -- but any other Christian -- not a priest.

 

All Christians are saints -- set apart ones -- and we are all the priesthood of believers.

 

The Catholic church has set up positions that are not Biblical according to the New Testament.

[unsinkable]

Different priests and/or pastors stick closer to the text than others. I've been to mass and the entire homily did not mention the Bible once. I've been to Protestant services where the sermon or whatever they called it, did not mention the Bible either. My Christian university's "university church" had a pastor who preached on the Golden Rule - every single Sunday. There just wasn't a lot of teaching there. So that is the background that many of these people are coming from.

 

 

I see you are saying there are people from different backgrounds that mention the Bible with varying degrees.

 

For Roman Catholics, the Liturgy is composed of 2 parts:

1. Liturgy of the Word

2. Liturgy of the Eucharist

 

Liturgy of the Word includes the readings (2 OT, a psalm, and 1 Gospel on Sunday; 1 OT and 1 Gospel weekdays.) These are straight from the Bible! A song based on the Psalm can be substituted. A homily is also in the Liturgy of the Word. A homily is the priest's own words. Some homilies are short and based on one point. I've been to weekday Masses where the homilies are about 5 sentences long. I liken these (in my head) to Mission:Impossible directives --based on the length, not the do-ability!

 

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the MOST IMPORTANT part of the Mass. Christ told us at the Last Supper to do this is memory of me! Words from the Bible!

 

Also, the catechism tell us to read the Bible:

 

131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life." Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.

 

I am glad you and your husband have such a wonderful ministry of reading the Bible with those who want to. In the Catholic Church, too, the Bible is RIGHT HERE for anyone who wants it.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I think that Holy Tradition is where most Catholics and Protestants part company. Most Protestants I know would probably say that traditions should be interpreted in the light of scripture, not vice versa. And that if a tradition cannot be supported through scripture, it should not be part of church doctrine.

[mommaduck]

Christians are to pray to God directly -- to come to His throne for mercy and grace -- not a priest and not Mary. She was a mere woman -- Jesus never spoke to her as though she were anything other. If He went around praising her, you would think the disciples would have mentioned it.

 

You misunderstand their view of "praying". Prayer can be worship. It can also be seen as a conversation. From what I have been told, they see it as speaking to another...just as I would ask you to pray for me, and the saints in heaven pray for us, they are asking her to do the same.

 

We are to confess our sins one to another -- but any other Christian -- not a priest.

 

 

You just contradicted yourself. If the priest is a Christian, then why can't you confess to the priest? The priest offers a safe haven to confess to as he would not spread your business around as some ministers and their wives have done. I'm not Catholic, but I would probably trust a priest over most protestant ministers.

[Michele B]

\

Christians are to pray to God directly -- to come to His throne for mercy and grace -- not a priest and not Mary. She was a mere woman -- Jesus never spoke to her as though she were anything other. If He went around praising her, you would think the disciples would have mentioned it.

 

We are to confess our sins one to another -- but any other Christian -- not a priest.

 

All Christians are saints -- set apart ones -- and we are all the priesthood of believers.

 

The Catholic church has set up positions that are not Biblical according to the New Testament.

 

I answered all of these in my earlier post. Including:

I do not Worship Mary. Catholic practice specifically forbids this. Pray means to ask ( bieten, Bede, Beg, bid). I ask for the prayers of Mary and other Sainst in heaven in the same spirit I ask for the prayers of my catholic and baptist friends - we are all part of the body of Christ and the Body of Christ prays to God for one another. Dead people are still the Body of Christ, right?;)

Pray means to ask. I assume you believe in intercessory prayer? I ask Mary to intercede for me. I ask my mom to intercede for me. The difference? - Mary is in heaven and can perfectly pray God's will.

Confessing sins - I confess one to another. The difference between a friend or family member or church family is the grace and skill of a confessor. They are blessed and trained to see impartially.

 

Extra - biblical confuses me. The Undivided Church led by the Holy ghost decreed which books and letters would be included in the Cannon of Holy Scripture. Many were not included. How can one trust the Catholic church to decide which books are the Word of God, and also the nature of the Trinity, BUT not trust them on other matters decided at the same Council which decided the Cannon of Holy Scripture?

 

Also about the priest hood of believers. Yes, but the nation of israel in the old testament was a nation of priests set apart as holy to God. Remember it was the me and not the priests who sacrificed the animals. But what happened to Korah and his lot? Korah said we are all set apart for God why do we need the priests why can't we all offer. And Moses said go ahead. Adn what happened?

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Michele B]

Sorry I meant it was the men that offered the sacrifices. Not the me.

[dangermom]

I don't think it's right to presume to judge who is and is not Christian. No one owns the word, and no one gets to judge others' hearts. To me it sounds incredibly presumptuous. It's possible to disagree on theological points and still be faithful followers of Christ, but trying to define lots of people out of the club strikes me as less than kind or respectful.

 

 

(I also don't get the whole sola scriptura thing--if Protestants accept the creeds and councils up to the time of the Reformation, the Nicene Creed, etc.--how is that relying only on the Bible? Shouldn't those get ignored?)

[Michele B]

Unfortunately, "just reading the scriptures" has never been enough. Reading the words on the page is one thing. What those words mean and how to put them into practice, has caused endless schism, confusion and sadness. You cannot just simplify or boil it down. Even the ancient "Love, and do what you will," implies perfect love. Now how many of us have that? "Can't we just all love Jesus?" Sure, But I was talking to a Buddhist this weekend who calls himself "a man after Jesus' heart, but not a Christian." (he is a great guy!) It is taking that love and putting it into action. "If you love me you will keep my commandments." We can't even all agree what those commandments are! So no, we can't just read the scriptures or just love Jesus. For a christian it cannot end there. We have to live it. and there is where all the disagreements begin.

[Michele B]

For example, the whole notion at one time that only those in leadership could understand scripture and should therefore read it and study it is contrary to Scripture itself.

 

 

When was that? There have been many times when much of the church was illiterate, and so the Word of God came by hearing or seeing Christian truths and stories in art.

[Nestof3]

You misunderstand their view of "praying". Prayer can be worship. It can also be seen as a conversation. From what I have been told, they see it as speaking to another...just as I would ask you to pray for me, and the saints in heaven pray for us, they are asking her to do the same.

 

 

 

You just contradicted yourself. If the priest is a Christian, then why can't you confess to the priest? The priest offers a safe haven to confess to as he would not spread your business around as some ministers and their wives have done. I'm not Catholic, but I would probably trust a priest over most protestant ministers.

 

First paragraph:

Revelation makes it clear that there are saints who pray in Heaven, but we are never instructed to ask them specifically for prayers.

 

Second paragraph:

I meant to type "not just a priest." I'm not that illogical. :)

[Brigitte]

We are to confess our sins one to another -- but any other Christian -- not a priest.

 

Catholics confess their sins to Christ, the priest is his proxy, the vehicle through which we communicate our sins and our absolution is delivered.

[Michele B]

First paragraph:

Revelation makes it clear that there are saints who pray in Heaven, but we are never instructed to ask them specifically for prayers.

 

:)

 

 

They are still the body of Christ. We can ask the Body of Christ for intercessory prayer.

[mommyrooch]

It's none of my business to try to decide who is or is not in the club; much better to be examining myself to see if I'm doing right.

 

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

I answered all of these in my earlier post. Including:

I do not Worship Mary. Catholic practice specifically forbids this. Pray means to ask ( bieten, Bede, Beg, bid). I ask for the prayers of Mary and other Sainst in heaven in the same spirit I ask for the prayers of my catholic and baptist friends - we are all part of the body of Christ and the Body of Christ prays to God for one another. Dead people are still the Body of Christ, right?;)

Pray means to ask. I assume you believe in intercessory prayer? I ask Mary to intercede for me. I ask my mom to intercede for me. The difference? - Mary is in heaven and can perfectly pray God's will.

Confessing sins - I confess one to another. The difference between a friend or family member or church family is the grace and skill of a confessor. They are blessed and trained to see impartially.

 

Extra - biblical confuses me. The Undivided Church led by the Holy ghost decreed which books and letters would be included in the Cannon of Holy Scripture. Many were not included. How can one trust the Catholic church to decide which books are the Word of God, and also the nature of the Trinity, BUT not trust them on other matters decided at the same Council which decided the Cannon of Holy Scripture?

 

Also about the priest hood of believers. Yes, but the nation of israel in the old testament was a nation of priests set apart as holy to God. Remember it was the me and not the priests who sacrificed the animals. But what happened to Korah and his lot? Korah said we are all set apart for God why do we need the priests why can't we all offer. And Moses said go ahead. Adn what happened?

 

I see a difference between asking for prayer from specific dead saints, and one has to admit that Mary is the most oft person mentioned. Why is that if she were not more revered? We are never told to ask the dead for prayers, though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. The New Testament also refers to all believers as saints, not just special ones.

 

The New Covenenant did away with priests and sacrifices. I have no idea why you are using an old covenant story to prove how the new covenant is supposed to function. The priesthood of believers is only a new covenant gift.

[Nestof3]

Catholics confess their sins to Christ, the priest is his proxy, the vehicle through which we communicate our sins and our absolution is delivered.

 

Yes, and the new covenant is clear that there is no mediator/proxy/vehicle other than Christ.

 

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

 

 

(all from Hebrews)

[Michele B]

The New Testament fulfils the Old. In Catholic tradition, Christ is the Great High Priest. No Question. The Church has stated that Jesus instituted a priesthood with the Apostles. They were to feed his sheep and continue bringing the Word of God to the people. The Ancient Church did have a priesthood. The ancient fathers read the Scriptures and came to this conclusion. Apostolic Succession guards our faith. The students who sat at the feet of John the Beloved Apostle taught his teachings to the next group of students. I get Polycarp and the rest confused. They passed the letters down and the Catholic church approv ed them in the Canon of Scripture. If you read the writings of the mean who preserved the letters and teachings and the men who declared the letters and teachings holy scripture - you find the priesthood. You can read the scriptures, but reading them in the context of the men who sat at St John's feet and heard all other besides and the men who sat at their feet and heard from them puts things in a much clearer perspective.

[mommaduck]

First paragraph:

Revelation makes it clear that there are saints who pray in Heaven, but we are never instructed to ask them specifically for prayers.

 

Second paragraph:

I meant to type "not just a priest." I'm not that illogical. :)

 

 

1st Paragraph: depends on how you look at it. Perhaps you should not ask your husband to pray for you either, since that is not instructed either. (there is one reason that I don't, but you haven't listed it ;) However, I'm just saying, look at it from their pov...you may not agree, but it doesn't mean they are as far out in left field with their reasoning either...they aren't "worshipping" anyone with it)

 

2nd Paragraph: good to hear, then you shouldn't have an issue with them logically going to their minister just as you might go to yours.

[Heather in Neverland]

All of this, plus Im tired of being the target of evangelism by people (and their children!!) who want to "save" us catholics.

 

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

[HRAAB]

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

 

This is not necessarily true. If both parties are baptized Christians, it should be recognized. My sister (Catholic) married her dh (baptized, not Catholic) in the Methodist church. Their marriage is a valid marriage. When her dh converted, they had their marriage blessed in the Catholic church, but it was certainly recognized. Your in-laws, and many other Catholics as well as Protestants, are sadly very misinformed about many things Catholic.

 

Janet

[Michele B]

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

 

Your in-laws are not correct.

There are three types of marriages:

natural marriage : you live together and have sex

civil marriage : recognized by the STATE

sacramental marriage: indissouble bond between baptised husband and wife. God sends you grace through this marriage.

 

I happen to have all three. ;) My parents are Baptists and I believe they have all three. As a baptized Christian, you and your husband can have a sacramental marriage that God uses to bring the two of you closer to him. Marriage is the only sacrament the priest does not "do." The man and the woman "do" that sacrament. I think there is a better word than "do." ;)

Your in-laws are mistaken. Unless you or your husband is not 1. baptised 2. open to children, 3. life long, exclusive commitment 4. or did not enter into the marriage with free will and full disclosure.

[Laura K (NC)]

deleted by author

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Laura K (NC)]

nt

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laura K (NC)

[Heather in Neverland]

Your in-laws are not correct.

There are three types of marriages:

natural marriage : you live together and have sex

civil marriage : recognized by the STATE

sacramental marriage: indissouble bond between baptised husband and wife. God sends you grace through this marriage.

 

I happen to have all three. ;) My parents are Baptists and I believe they have all three. As a baptized Christian, you and your husband can have a sacramental marriage that God uses to bring the two of you closer to him. Marriage is the only sacrament the priest does not "do." The man and the woman "do" that sacrament. I think there is a better word than "do." ;)

Your in-laws are mistaken. Unless you or your husband is not 1. baptised 2. open to children, 3. life long, exclusive commitment 4. or did not enter into the marriage with free will and full disclosure.

 

I guess we qualify then! :D My FIL insists that our marriage needs to be "recognized" by the catholic church. I am not sure what "recognized" means to him but I have a piece of paper that says I am married...should I just forward a copy of that to the Vatican?:tongue_smilie:

Just trying to lighten the mood a bit people! :D

[Michele B]

I see a difference between asking for prayer from specific dead saints, and one has to admit that Mary is the most oft person mentioned. Why is that if she were not more revered? We are never told to ask the dead for prayers, though I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. The New Testament also refers to all believers as saints, not just special ones.

 

 

 

Yes Mary is the most often cited saint. And I am not saying that there are not and have never been people who worshipped Mary in either their ignorance or perversion. But it is forbidden by the Catholic Church.

 

Mary holds a special place in the life of the Church. She is seen as the Queen of the Angels and the Queen of Heaven. Yes, I can imagine your reaction to those titles!;) I have to plead Holy Tradition!:lol:

 

 

For Biblical support, one looks in several places. When Jesus looks down from the Cross at Saint john and says "Behold your mother," this has been read to mean that St John is the Church and Mary is the Mother of the Church (as well as, take care of her because there is no one else.) Also going back the old testament. The Queen mother (mother of the King) holds a special place in ancient times. Bathsheba goes before her son's throne with intercession. Mary is the mother of the true King. St. Augustine: "The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is unveiled in the New." She is also seen as the Ark of the Covenant, because she contained within her body the Word of God (10 command.) and the Bread of Life (manna/Jesus).

 

There is a biblical method to our madness!;)

 

1 Kings 2:19 So Bathsheba (queen mother) went to King Solomon (on the throne of david) to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. (intercession) And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right." Here is a biblical example of how the one sitting on the throne of David treats his mother.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Michele B
grammar, citation

[Alice]

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

 

My grandmother (Catholic) got around this one (my parents were not married in the church and were not practicing Christians at the time of their wedding) by saying "they were really Catholic in their hearts." :) She also baptized me Catholic in the bathtub as a baby because "noone else was going to do it". She was quite a lady. ;)

 

The anti-Catholic bias in the evangelical church really does bug me. I'm not Catholic. My Grandmother was Catholic but the town my Mom grew up in was tiny and had no Catholic church until my Mom had left for college. (My Grandmother grew up in Paris the daughter of Russian Catholics, went to school with the nuns, met my grandfather during WWII and moved to a tiny tiny town in Virginia.) So my Mom grew up going to the Baptist church with her grandmother and then later in life I ended up in a different Protestant church.

 

Just to say, that I don't really claim to understand Catholic doctrine or theology. I know there are parts I disagree on but I totally disagree with the Catholics are not-Christians sentiment. I think there are Catholics who are more culturally Catholic than truly believers, but that's true of every denomination and it's not really my place to judge someone's heart or belief.

 

Anyway, I don't agree with the statement itself and I think that it's too bad there is a anti-Catholic bias in the evangelical church. There are so many points of similarlity and so many places where we could work together to minister to the community...but sadly this rarely happens.

 

Can't we all just get along?:001_smile:

[Avila]

I have been avoiding this thread because I was afraid I couldn't post without appearing as upset as I am. Sorry in advance for that, and sorry to the many people on this thread whom I know this does not apply to.

 

I am tired of, as a Catholic, being told what I believe. Instead of asking me or going to the MANY available sources to know what the church teaches, people rely on "My Baptist pastor says so and so" or "The Jack Chick pamplet tells me such and such."

 

I don't worship Mary. I don't believe I can work my way to Heaven. And even though there are real differences between what the Catholic church teaches and what most Protestants believe, please quit arguing with me over what you THINK I believe so we could open the door for a real discussion on what I REALLY believe.

 

The bible has not always been there, and even after it was written and pulled together in one place, many people could not read. When you believe that everything about the faith has to be found in the bible, you deny this fact, IMO. Jesus did not write a book and leave it with us. We believe he left a church to help us understand that book.

 

{{Rant over.}}

 

I was recently at an event of my local HS group and my then 9 yo daughter was asked if we are Christians. She said, "Yes, of course we are." She was told that we aren't, and that Catholics only think they are. When she tried to argue that, she was told that her father told her that, and she was supposed to stay away from us anyhow. That is wrong and hurtful. Especially to say to my child.

 

This is where I am coming from with this, and again, I am sorry to the many people who I already know would not say this to my child, even if they believed it.

 

Protestants do NOT agree on everything either, but they do seem to extend a tolerance and welcome to each other in a way that many never extend to Catholics, and I am sad about that.

[Murphy101]

I'm tired of hearing this question every month or two at this board. I'm tired of the answers. I'm tired of the willful misinformation and the prejudice. I'm tired of seeing it in Protestant homeschooling books. I'm tired of being slapped in the face with it at our state homeschooling convention, our countywide support group, and people who avoid my friendship and forbid their children to get too chummy with mine because we're Catholic.

 

It's like "what about socialization?" times 10,000,000. If you're going to question someone's salvation, then check the archives first before punching us in the stomach yet again.

 

And that's why I gave this thread one star.

 

oh Laura :grouphug::grouphug:

It appears to me that you are having a rough time of it these days.

I can sympathize with that entirely having a few of my own.

 

I do see where you are comming from, but this conversation has been entirely unusually civil so far.

 

And as difficult as it is to presume charitibly of others at times, I feel compelled to answer honestly and candidly the thoughtful questions of these others. Not so much to defend my own faith. But for the sake of clarity and kindness towards their curiosity of my God and His Church. I harbor no delusions that they will read my posts and sudden come to enlightenment of mind or sentiment. But neither do I think most of these posters are reading my posts with the goal of changing my faith either. And maybe if they meet me they will see nothing more than a woman doing her best same as them rather than a non-believer on the fast track to idoltry driven hell. (said somewhat tongue in cheek)

 

Thank you for that info. I have never heard it put that clearly before. I confess that this Baptist girl is drawn to the beauty of the Catholic service. :D Can I ask another question? How does Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross fit into the information above?

 

awesome question! the answer is in every. single. part. of. it.

 

In all the sacraments The blessed Trinity and Christ are intergral both in the graces received, the symbolism, and the words used.

 

These things are not done outside of our belief in Jesus, they are done as a part of belief in Jesus.

 

:)

 

I find this interesting, as the Roman Catholic Church is/was responsible for putting together (eg: editing & compiling) the first bible.

 

Actually, there are no "daily sacrifices" on any Catholic altar: there is the offering of bread and wine as a means of communion with God. This practice existed in the "early" church as well.

 

the first part I agree with. anyone who doesn't believe in Tradition shouldn't believe in the bible. tradition came first.

 

the 2nd part is in error.

the bread and the wine become the blood and body of christ sacrified for our sakes.

when we partake of that sacrifice, we take in Christ

 

 

Now I am totally confused.

 

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was all there was until 1054, at which time the Schism occurred and the RCC and the Orthodox Church split.

 

Luther posted his theses in 1517, which led to his split from the RCC, and the Church of England followed suit in 1529. The Orthodox have remained without splits.

 

 

well now that is a can of worms LOL

 

from the RC perspectice, the Church did not split and cannot split.

some sects of the fold just aren't quite as attached as we'd prefer.

we still claim them even though they do not claim us.

 

All of this, plus Im tired of being the target of evangelism by people (and their children!!) who want to "save" us catholics.

 

again.. saved from what?! my oldest was in 1st grade when this came up. scared the poo out of him. he couldn't figure out what was comming but he figured if only Jesus coudl help him then it must be the biggest, badest monster ever. poor kids was picturing hundreds of people runnign for their lives hoping ot be "saved".:glare:

 

I think if people put their church teachings and traditions aside and just read the Bible,

 

by that logic my children should just never read a history book or take anything from our family customs, because it's all a waste?

 

again, I say if you cannot find value in Traditions, then you cannot reasonably find value int he bible. The Traditions came before the bible and led up to it's creation. NOT the other way around.

 

For example, the whole notion at one time that only those in leadership could understand scripture and should therefore read it and study it is contrary to Scripture itself.

 

those in leadership were highly likely the only ones that could read at all.

and the church was responsible for nearly all education advances in the middle ages. It was the Church that offerred medical care, schools, and much more.

 

Christians are to pray to God directly -- to come to His throne for mercy and grace -- not just a priest and not Mary. She was a mere woman -- Jesus never spoke to her as though she were anything other. If He went around praising her, you would think the disciples would have mentioned it.

 

We do pray directly to God.

someone else already noted the priest is a proxy in confession.

May was just some chick off the street eh?:001_huh:

No Jesus didn't worship her and neither do we.

However, I don't think God would pick just any random broad to give birth to and raise the messiah, the son of God, the 2nd person of the blessed trinity!

Mary is reverred because she was the mother of Christ.

Because she was someone special for God to chose her.

Because she could have said "no" and not carried that baby.

Because it took someone of amazing faith in God to not only say yes, but to even be chosen.

 

She's not a God to be worshiped.

But Jesus did listen to her, scripture does support that. (the wedding of Cana cmes to mind)

So we might ask Mary to take our plea to her Son and speak on our behalf.

 

All Christians are saints

 

no we're not.

a saint is simply someone who is in heaven.

none of us are in heaven, much less all of us.

 

The Catholic church has set up positions that are not Biblical according to the New Testament.

 

such as?

 

First paragraph:

Revelation makes it clear that there are saints who pray in Heaven, but we are never instructed to ask them specifically for prayers.

 

that is not the same as saying it is wrong to do so either.

and the church doesn't say anyone has to pray to saints either

it's simply an acceptable option.

 

The New Covenenant did away with priests and sacrifices. I have no idea why you are using an old covenant story to prove how the new covenant is supposed to function. The priesthood of believers is only a new covenant gift.

 

In the new testament, it is clear that there is a set system of heirachry already. It is not a free for all of everyone doing their own thing. No, the apostles take on leadership and appoint others to answer to them and so forth.

In fact, in more than one letter, an apostle chasitizes those who are not obeying him or another apostle or those they have sent to lead a church. And much of the letters deal with those lower in leadership asking the apostles how best to proceed rather than making their own decisions. Some of the letters are rather heated on these points even!

 

ug. must get house clean for exterminators tomorrow, and educate some kids!

 

interesting discussion folks!

[unsinkable]

I have been avoiding this thread because I was afraid I couldn't post without appearing as upset as I am. Sorry in advance for that, and sorry to the many people on this thread whom I know this does not apply to.

 

I am tired of, as a Catholic, being told what I believe. Instead of asking me or going to the MANY available sources to know what the church teaches, people rely on "My Baptist pastor says so and so" or "The Jack Chick pamplet tells me such and such."

 

I don't worship Mary. I don't believe I can work my way to Heaven. And even though there are real differences between what the Catholic church teaches and what most Protestants believe, please quit arguing with me over what you THINK I believe so we could open the door for a real discussion on what I REALLY believe.

 

The bible has not always been there, and even after it was written and pulled together in one place, many people could not read. When you believe that everything about the faith has to be found in the bible, you deny this fact, IMO. Jesus did not write a book and leave it with us. We believe he left a church to help us understand that book.

 

{{Rant over.}}

 

I was recently at an event of my local HS group and my then 9 yo daughter was asked if we are Christians. She said, "Yes, of course we are." She was told that we aren't, and that Catholics only think they are. When she tried to argue that, she was told that her father told her that, and she was supposed to stay away from us anyhow. That is wrong and hurtful. Especially to say to my child.

 

This is where I am coming from with this, and again, I am sorry to the many people who I already know would not say this to my child, even if they believed it.

 

Protestants do NOT agree on everything either, but they do seem to extend a tolerance and welcome to each other in a way that many never extend to Catholics, and I am sad about that.

 

Aww, Shelly, :grouphug: I am so sorry about your dd!

 

I was once told (at a homeschool gym&swim class) that the Pope was a disgusting old man who had no right to know what kind of birth control I used. This was unsolicited, BTW. A woman had "heard" I was Catholic and just wanted to share that with me.

 

:grouphug:

[KarenNC]

again, I say if you cannot find value in Traditions, then you cannot reasonably find value int he bible. The Traditions came before the bible and led up to it's creation. NOT the other way around.

 

Got to agree. The bulk of the New Testament is composed of letters clarifying oral teachings (traditions) of the newly-forming Christian Church.

 

Judaism is the same---the written Torah is only part of the picture, there is also the Oral Torah that (as I understand it) the Jews believe was given along with the written Torah. It is considered equally important and without it one cannot accurately understand the written Torah.

[Brigitte]

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

 

The Catholic Church does recognize your marriage as a "real" marriage. It is not a Catholic marriage, but it is a real marriage. Should you husband want to return to the Catholic Church, you would need to get your marriage blessed/validated in the Catholic Church, however. Basically what you are doing through the validation is saying that you promise to live a married life as dictated by the Catholic Church and that you understand the Catholic Church's belief about marriage.

 

We just went through this process, since I have come back to the Catholic Church. I have to say, it was a life altering experience (in a very good way).

[asta]

the 2nd part is in error.

the bread and the wine become the blood and body of christ sacrified for our sakes.

when we partake of that sacrifice, we take in Christ

 

The way I had it explained to me was that Christ was sacrificed, but Catholics, during the mass, are not sacrificing anyone. They are partaking in a communion with god, not physically sacrificing someone/something to god.

 

Transfiguration is a whole other can of worms that, as you know, is not easy to explain to someone who does not buy into the concept.

 

 

asta

[Dobela]

I understand what you are saying but, like most things, it goes both ways. I am tired of hearing how my marriage is not "real" because it is not recognized by the Catholic church (dh was catholic when we married, I was not and we married in my church...my in-laws never let me forget that).

 

I am not Catholic but I have several friends that are and several family members as well. Years ago the Catholic church was much more strict about marriage. For my cousins to marry a Catholic they had to convert (this is the 1960s and before). Otherwise their children were not allowed to attend Catholic schools, be baptized, and so on. A marriage that was not "approved" or blessed by a priest in a Catholic church was more easily annulled where an approved wedding was not easily annulled. Without approval of the Catholic church one cousin was told that her marriage was not real and accepted by God (by a priest and by other Catholics) because they did not follow the traditions and rituals of the Catholic church. According to one priest they were living in fornication and continual sin even though they had a civil ceremony.

 

I know in the 70s and 80s, my parents wanted me to attend a Catholic school because of poor schools in an area we moved to. I was denied attendance because my parents would not convert to the Catholic religion first.

 

Now, many years later, the Catholic schools in our area accept nonCatholics and where the marriage took place (and who performs the ceremony) is not as important as the commitment to each other and God according to my Catholic friends.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

I was recently at an event of my local HS group and my then 9 yo daughter was asked if we are Christians. She said, "Yes, of course we are." She was told that we aren't, and that Catholics only think they are. When she tried to argue that, she was told that her father told her that, and she was supposed to stay away from us anyhow. That is wrong and hurtful. Especially to say to my child.

 

Protestants do NOT agree on everything either, but they do seem to extend a tolerance and welcome to each other in a way that many never extend to Catholics, and I am sad about that.

 

Sadly this last statement is not true. Once, as a Protestant, you have identified yourself as one of a number of denominations you frequently receive the kind of treatment you have outlined above. Sometimes you can remain quietly in the background and say nothing but I'm not sure that is always the right answer.

[calandalsmom]

I am not Catholic but I have several friends that are and several family members as well. Years ago the Catholic church was much more strict about marriage. For my cousins to marry a Catholic they had to convert (this is the 1960s and before). Otherwise their children were not allowed to attend Catholic schools, be baptized, and so on. A marriage that was not "approved" or blessed by a priest in a Catholic church was more easily annulled where an approved wedding was not easily annulled. Without approval of the Catholic church one cousin was told that her marriage was not real and accepted by God (by a priest and by other Catholics) because they did not follow the traditions and rituals of the Catholic church. According to one priest they were living in fornication and continual sin even though they had a civil ceremony.

 

I know in the 70s and 80s, my parents wanted me to attend a Catholic school because of poor schools in an area we moved to. I was denied attendance because my parents would not convert to the Catholic religion first.

 

Now, many years later, the Catholic schools in our area accept nonCatholics and where the marriage took place (and who performs the ceremony) is not as important as the commitment to each other and God according to my Catholic friends.

 

None of this was ever widespread nor was it doctrinal, though it may have been the case where you lived.

 

On the topic of Mary, why is it that evangelicals hold her in such low esteem exactly? Behold the handmaiden of the Lord.

 

She CHOSE to be God's human vessel despite all the difficulty it presented in her very real life. My goodness!

 

I think it ties into the all too common low view of women which is so often advanced by some members of certain sects.

[sagira]

Aren't Catholics the original Christians? Did I miss something? :001_huh: Just because there have been Reformations (which is all fine by me -- everyone should be able to believe and practice their belief peacefully -- I take issue with the heavy-handed Catholic Church in the medieval times and early Renaissance) doesn't mean that Catholics cease to be Christians?? People have different interpretations of what "saved" means.

 

To me, as a Catholic, I believe that we were allowed the gift of possibility of going to heaven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but we must earn our way by believing in God, the resurrection and try as hard as you can to live a good, honorable, life according to what God teaches and repent for your inevitable mistakes and start again. This is key. IMO you can't just believe and committing serious sins left and right knowing that you can just repent over and over again. "Oh, I'm already saved, I can do whatever I want". For me, you need to believe, yes. But you need to also commit to living an honorable life. And to me, trying as hard as you can to do this is also the active version of "loving God with all your heart and all your mind".

 

Sorry, you can't get rid of us Catholics. We're still Christians ;)

Edited April 27, 2009 by sagira

[Murphy101]

The way I had it explained to me was that Christ was sacrificed, but Catholics, during the mass, are not sacrificing anyone. They are partaking in a communion with god, not physically sacrificing someone/something to god.

 

Transfiguration is a whole other can of worms that, as you know, is not easy to explain to someone who does not buy into the concept.

 

ahhh I see.

yes, that woudl be more correct.

I thought you were going down the road of saying the bread and wine nothing more than a community sharing of crackers and juice theory.

 

a resounding no to that view.:D