What is the purpose of math education?

[ktgrok]

20 hours ago, regentrude said:

This. Passing a kid with lack of mastery on to the next math level by giving them a low grade makes zero sense because they can't possibly understand the next thing. 

YUP. And giving them extra time, or more practice, if they don't understand the concepts that were foundational, won't help. you HAVE to fix the foundation first. 

20 hours ago, EKS said:

So given that, I think what we need are math specialists.  Just like we have art, library, and PE specialists--why I don't know, because I think that elementary ed majors could probably deal with those things.  

I don't know, I really don't think it should take a specialized degree to teach basic arithmetic. Sure, it would be nice, but it is totally possible to teach most children who don't have dyscalcula basic addition/subtraction/multiplication/division (including basic operations with fractions/decimals/percents) without a degree in math. Or it should be! I think the real problem is poor curricula more than anything (see post below)

19 hours ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, while we desperately need elementary ed people who understand math, the reality is that that is not going to happen or be fixed.  

What we COULD do is have decent textbooks and use them.  But we don't.  My kids have never had a textbook in public school, in any class except AP US History.  The teachers all have to make up their own problem sets.  But they suck at math, so they certainly don't do a good job.  The teachers all have to write their own lesson plans or buy them off of Teachers Pay Teachers.  It's incredibly haphazard, but they're "following the district pacing guide," so there's no flexibility if kids aren't getting something, and they're following the district curriculum guide, but as far as day to day lessons and content and problem sets, it's every teacher for themselves.  

Textbooks would help a TON.  

THIS!!!!! Almost anyone can teach math using say, CLE math light units. For crying out loud, they were developed so a single non college graduate could teach multiple grade levels in a one room school house if need be. Obviously a secular curriculum would be needed, but something similar would be cheap and easy to implement - a few minutes teaching the lesson, demonstrate things using manipulatives, then kids who "get it" can get to work independently and the ones who need more help the teacher can focus on helping. If need be the "I can do it" section could be done at home and it is simple enough that parents can actually help the students. Plus practice with flash cards a few times a day - say to start off the day, after or before lunch, before leaving for the day. 

Have more challenging problems on hand for kids that finish fast and find math easy - a daily math challenge problem or whatever. Or let THAT be the time they go online and do an app! 

Something like that would have kids leaving elementary school with at least the ability to do basic math! 

17 hours ago, SKL said:

Yes!

The other thing they are doing now is expecting kids to group up in class and teach themselves - without a textbook.  It sounds too crazy to be real, but yep.

I sometimes lurk on the teacher subreddit and I was blown away by how many teachers said most everything was done in groups. How do you know which students are grasping the material if they don't turn in individual work? Or answer questions indivdually in a discussion?

5 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the problem comes with expecting kids to do high level everything all at once.  Calculus 2 by 12th grade AND high level literary analysis AND in depth history AND be fluent in another language AND do high level science all at once.    It has to be ok to pick one thing to specialize in and do other things at a more middling level.  You can cover Shakespeare etc. at a lighter level and still learn plenty about the written word, critical thinking, syntax, vocabulary, communication, etc.  while you shoot for the stars in Calculus.  Or you can learn math at a slower pace, not do calculus in high school, while marinating yourself in Shakespeare and literature and sentence diagraming.  

Yes! Not everyone is great at everything and asking them to be is a good way to get a lot of kids who are good at not much. 

[SanDiegoMom]

8 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s the prestige of the district and the demographics that they want not the education offered.  

A lot of the parents I talked to just really didn't understand because they weren't in the class room and had nothing to compare it to.   They just assumed it was good because that's what they were told.  When problems happened or they needed tutors they assumed it was their own kids only, and that real learning was still going on in class. 

 

[KungFuPanda]

Making elementary teachers be specialists in everything can get tricky, how many years are they to spend in school? They could never pay for it with their earning potential. They are still being trained for the possibility that that might have to teach their students EVERY subject because that’s the reality in some districts. Many are in constant survival mode and would LOVE to have time to update their training. A lot of people get into education because they love school and dearly wish they had fewer students do they could do more with them. 

@Clarita mentioned the problem of going to another location for dual enrollment classes, but where I live every high school has dual enrollment classes taught AT the high school, so the transportation issue is eliminated. Miss do need to travel for career academy classes, which have everything from HVAC training to aerospace engineering, but I think they run busses for those.  The CC does have on campus DE classes, but kids can take classes at their own high school too.

I should probably just listen and be quiet, because I know we are very lucky with geography and have a good local school system. However, I grew up in a small rural school district and we benefited from much smaller class sizes and an environment where the adults were in control. Every assignment always got graded.

I’ll be the dissenting voice for peer teaching. I think teaching a skill requires you to know it in a different and more complete way and can really aid in mastery. However, you need more oversight to pull it off effectively and not less.

 

 

[QueenCat]

41 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Making elementary teachers be specialists in everything can get tricky, how many years are they to spend in school? They could never pay for it with their earning potential. They are still being trained for the possibility that that might have to teach their students EVERY subject because that’s the reality in some districts. Many are in constant survival mode and would LOVE to have time to update their training. A lot of people get into education because they love school and dearly wish they had fewer students do they could do more with them. 

 

This!!!!! Teachers are expected to do continuing ed on their own dime and time. If they made more, it might make sense, but they are not paid wages commiserate with their job. 

And double yes to survival mode! Teachers work way beyond their contracted hours AND the parents and school system still want more out of them. Ask me why I no longer teach.

[Heartstrings]

I don’t really think teachers needs to be specialists in any subject. They don’t really need to be historians or scientists or mathematicians to teach k-5 or k-6.  If they had been taught properly themselves, plus took excellent review classes in college then teaching arithmetic and phonics should not be so hard.  Homeschool moms do it, teenagers on the frontier used to do it, mothers on the prairie used to do it.   

 The issue at this point is that the teachers themselves were taught with shoddy methods and never learned proper math or phonics and now can’t teach what they don’t know.  We shouldn’t be in a position where basic arithmetic or phonics or grammar requires continuing Ed classes! They should know it frontward  and backward because it’s basic basics.  

[Clarita]

10 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

54 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Making elementary teachers be specialists in everything can get tricky, how many years are they to spend in school? They could never pay for it with their earning potential. They are still being trained for the possibility that that might have to teach their students EVERY subject because that’s the reality in some districts. Many are in constant survival mode and would LOVE to have time to update their training. A lot of people get into education because they love school and dearly wish they had fewer students do they could do more with them. 

 

Expand  

This!!!!! Teachers are expected to do continuing ed on their own dime and time. If they made more, it might make sense, but they are not paid wages commiserate with their job. 

And double yes to survival mode! Teachers work way beyond their contracted hours AND the parents and school system still want more out of them. Ask me why I no longer teach.

This is absolutely part of the problem. As an engineer my companies would send me to trainings and it counted as part of my work. They would occur during my "paid time" (I was an exempt employee so "paid time" isn't well defined), generally scheduled M-F 8am-4pm. The "classes" would be organized where all the learning happened during class time. The company would pay for the tuition and travel expenses (if it was far away). They want us to be better at what we do. Either work obligations were scheduled around the training or the trainings were scheduled around work obligations (depends on what makes sense). 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t really think teachers needs to be specialists in any subject. They don’t really need to be historians or scientists or mathematicians to teach k-5 or k-6.  If they had been taught properly themselves, plus took excellent review classes in college then teaching arithmetic and phonics should not be so hard.  Homeschool moms do it, teenagers on the frontier used to do it, mothers on the prairie used to do it.   

 The issue at this point is that the teachers themselves were taught with shoddy methods and never learned proper math or phonics and now can’t teach what they don’t know.  We shouldn’t be in a position where basic arithmetic or phonics or grammar requires continuing Ed classes! They should know it frontward  and backward because it’s basic basics.  

Amen!!!! Now, intervention specialists for kids with dyslexia, dyscalcula, dysgraphia, etc - THOSE people need advanced training, absolutely. Some kind of specialized training specifically in methods that work with these kids. But it would be WAY fewer kids that need tutoring and one on one intervention if the class as a whole was being taught clearly and step by step, with a solid curriculum that the teachers felt confident in using. When the teachers are being given problematic educations themselves, then handed a problematic new curriculum every year or two, that they never get into a groove with, or worse, no curriculum resources at all, with no tracking of students so a huge range of abilities, it is no wonder they can't even figure out who needs remediation and who is just confused by the curriculum or needs actual regular practice to cement the idea. 

Also an amen to whoever said basic math and phonics take repetition! I keep telling my 6 yr old, when she kind of side eyes me, that "repetition is the mother of learning". She's heard it a WHOLE lot. And sure, you can do fun stuff with that repetition - but you gotta do it. And you odn't have TIME to practice phonics and math facts if kids are having to do full on literary analysis in kindergarten and write sentences or paragraphs in math class about how to solve each problem. (yes, that's a real thing)

[Clarita]

17 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t really think teachers needs to be specialists in any subject. They don’t really need to be historians or scientists or mathematicians to teach k-5 or k-6.  If they had been taught properly themselves, plus took excellent review classes in college then teaching arithmetic and phonics should not be so hard.  Homeschool moms do it, teenagers on the frontier used to do it, mothers on the prairie used to do it.   

 The issue at this point is that the teachers themselves were taught with shoddy methods and never learned proper math or phonics and now can’t teach what they don’t know.  We shouldn’t be in a position where basic arithmetic or phonics or grammar requires continuing Ed classes! They should know it frontward  and backward because it’s basic basics.  

Even if they don't know like @Terabithsaid above just get them a good math curricula. Seriously, we talk about those all the time on these boards some of them are fully scripted. Read the words in the teaching manual and it'll teach it to you as you teach it to the students. At the very least math and phonics/reading there are some really solid fully scripted stuff out there. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I don't know, I really don't think it should take a specialized degree to teach basic arithmetic.

Not a specialized degree.  A specialist who (hopefully) likes math, is reasonably good at it, and has had some sort of training as part of the certification process in how to teach it.  

[Lecka]

Just as an aside, I have also seen r/teachers and I don’t think it is representative of the 3 school districts that we have lived in.

I have also seen some r/homeschool and I don’t think it’s representative, either!!!!!

I have known of 5 sad, neglectful homeschooling situations.  Two are my husband’s relatives.  Two (siblings) are my husband’s friend’s kids who are from the same controlling church.  One is a friend of my son’s who was pulled out of school during Covid.  
 

Those seem vastly over-represented to me on Reddit compared to my own life experience and homeschoolers I have known in person.  My sister and my nieces know a lot of homeschoolers as well, their church is very supportive of homeschooling and hosts a co-op.  They know zero homeschoolers that don’t seem at face value to be active in their kids’ academic and social lives (and religious lives etc).  
 

I think this too for other parts of Reddit.  Some things just do not seem representative to me.  
 

I personally also skim things and think “I don’t fit in here” or I can feel like “things are great for me in this area, I don’t want to come and be super-positive in case it makes other people feel bad about themselves.”  
 

 

[Heartstrings]

26 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Just as an aside, I have also seen r/teachers and I don’t think it is representative of the 3 school districts that we have lived in.

I have also seen some r/homeschool and I don’t think it’s representative, either!!!!!

I have known of 5 sad, neglectful homeschooling situations.  Two are my husband’s relatives.  Two (siblings) are my husband’s friend’s kids who are from the same controlling church.  One is a friend of my son’s who was pulled out of school during Covid.  
 

Those seem vastly over-represented to me on Reddit compared to my own life experience and homeschoolers I have known in person.  My sister and my nieces know a lot of homeschoolers as well, their church is very supportive of homeschooling and hosts a co-op.  They know zero homeschoolers that don’t seem at face value to be active in their kids’ academic and social lives (and religious lives etc).  
 

I think this too for other parts of Reddit.  Some things just do not seem representative to me.  
 

I personally also skim things and think “I don’t fit in here” or I can feel like “things are great for me in this area, I don’t want to come and be super-positive in case it makes other people feel bad about themselves.”  
 

 

Sort of in the same vein, I see a lot of teachers on Tik Tok and have to really fight to remember that they are probably not representative.   They all seem not to like children, parents, or teaching.  

 

[Terabith]

To be fair, even the absolute best teachers in a classroom have a much harder job than teaching one kid.  It's so much harder to make sure every first grader gets the right amount of practice in phonics and math when they aren't the only one responding to questions.  It's just so much less EFFICIENT.  It's not impossible, with a good curriculum, but it is definitely harder.  

And most of these teachers have NOT had good educations of their own.  They do not understand arithmetic remotely, especially once you get beyond about second grade level.  They certainly don't understand fractions.  They were never taught phonics.  So it's not starting with well educated people and a good curriculum.  It's people who do not understand the material, are uncomfortable or afraid of it themselves, and are being asked to do a truly impossible task with no tools.  And the education courses did not teach phonics or math or science or social studies.  Not even a little bit.

[Heartstrings]

37 minutes ago, Terabith said:

To be fair, even the absolute best teachers in a classroom have a much harder job than teaching one kid.  It's so much harder to make sure every first grader gets the right amount of practice in phonics and math when they aren't the only one responding to questions.  It's just so much less EFFICIENT.  It's not impossible, with a good curriculum, but it is definitely harder.  

And most of these teachers have NOT had good educations of their own.  They do not understand arithmetic remotely, especially once you get beyond about second grade level.  They certainly don't understand fractions.  They were never taught phonics.  So it's not starting with well educated people and a good curriculum.  It's people who do not understand the material, are uncomfortable or afraid of it themselves, and are being asked to do a truly impossible task with no tools.  And the education courses did not teach phonics or math or science or social studies.  Not even a little bit.

I completely agree. It’s the unspoken secret behind a lot of the behavior issues schools are seeing IMO.  Teachers are all over talking about how terrible the kids are and how it’s never been so bad. IMO part of that stems from the teachers not really knowing what they are doing, kids can feel that.   The other part is holding kids to impossibly high standards without giving them tools and resources.  How deeply frustrating to be a kid in the school today.  

 

 It’s truly terrifying to consider the next generation of teachers who will be 2 or 3 generations removed from a time when people understood and knew things. 

Edited February 10 by Heartstrings

[Terabith]

16 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I completely agree. It’s the unspoken secret behind a lot of the behavior issues schools are seeing IMO.  Teachers are all over talking about how terrible the kids are and how it’s never been so bad. IMO part of that stems from the teachers not really knowing what they are doing, kids can feel that.   The other part is holding kids to impossibly high standards without giving them tools and resources.  How deeply frustrating to be a kid in the school today.  

 

 It’s truly terrifying to consider the next generation of teachers who will be 2 or 3 generations removed from a time when people understood and knew things. 

Well, we are also setting kids up, to be fair, by requiring incredibly developmentally inappropriate activities from them.  Of course there are going to be massive behavior issues when you demand that kids do things they are not physically or neurologically capable of, from the time they are about 3 years old and certainly by 5.  We demand that tiny people who can't cross their midlines or draw diagonal lines (because they are three) write letters and that five year olds write paragraphs and explain their reasoning in written form.  We don't allow them to play, make decisions, move around, or have appropriate independence that they are wired for, but we demand that they write and do abstract reasoning, but then we *never teach them how to form letters*.  They are set up to fail.  They are punished when they fail.  And then we act shocked and like it's their fault that they fail.  

And while kids can recover easily from not reading fluently or writing paragraphs at age 5 or even 7, they can't recover easily from destroyed self concepts and internalized sense of failure.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Terabith said:

Well, we are also setting kids up, to be fair, by requiring incredibly developmentally inappropriate activities from them.  Of course there are going to be massive behavior issues when you demand that kids do things they are not physically or neurologically capable of, from the time they are about 3 years old and certainly by 5.  We demand that tiny people who can't cross their midlines or draw diagonal lines (because they are three) write letters and that five year olds write paragraphs and explain their reasoning in written form.  We don't allow them to play, make decisions, move around, or have appropriate independence that they are wired for, but we demand that they write and do abstract reasoning, but then we *never teach them how to form letters*.  They are set up to fail.  They are punished when they fail.  And then we act shocked and like it's their fault that they fail.  

And while kids can recover easily from not reading fluently or writing paragraphs at age 5 or even 7, they can't recover easily from destroyed self concepts and internalized sense of failure.

But it’s all the parents’ fault for giving the kids iPads instead of parenting, according to the teachers on TikTok.

 Who lately have been discussing that these behavior kids just don’t deserve the “privilege” of a free education.  

[Terabith]

I mean, I do think babies being handed an ipad from the moment they are born is a legitimate problem.  I have met some kids who truly were feral.  I've met six year olds who don't speak any language fluently, not because of an innate disability but because they'd been spoken to so rarely.  Kids being ignored and spending 18 hours a day on screens really is a huge problem.  And I do think it is a generational marker.  But it's certainly not the ONLY problem.  And it's not a problem that our school system is addressing.  Kids need MORE play and time outdoors  and movement and interaction with caring adults and stories read to them and systematic instruction in fundamentals and less pressure than they did 30 years ago, not less.  

[frogger]

I will be honest here. I know long time (many decades) teachers who loved teaching, had good rapport with students, who have said student's behaivor and character traits have shifted a lot in the last decade. It may have to do with feeling lost due to poor curriculum etc but home life is really chaotic for some. There have always been harder to reach kids but the percentages have changed and if difficult or reactive kids are a larger percentage of your class it takes away from you being able to help the others at all.

My friend who retired last year after 30 years of teaching said that in gen ed classes she just read the book out loud in class because she couldn't make kids do homework at all. This was not the norm when she started teaching. 

[EKS]

10 hours ago, frogger said:

My friend who retired last year after 30 years of teaching said that in gen ed classes she just read the book out loud in class because she couldn't make kids do homework at all. This was not the norm when she started teaching. 

There shouldn't be homework.  If we want to close the achievement gap, we can't be offloading practice (or reading or anything else) to home.

Of course the problem isn't just homework.  There needs to be a sense of urgency in the classroom that isn't there.  There is a lot to cover.  It isn't ok not to get to everything.  And we need to get an army of adult volunteers lined up to sit with kids to help them practice reading and arithmetic every single day.

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, EKS said:

There shouldn't be homework.  If we want to close the achievement gap, we can't be offloading practice (or reading or anything else) to home.

Of course the problem isn't just homework.  There needs to be a sense of urgency in the classroom that isn't there.  There is a lot to cover.  It isn't ok not to get to everything.  And we need to get an army of adult volunteers lined up to sit with kids to help them practice reading and arithmetic every single day.

In middle and high school I am really not opposed to on average 30ish minutes of homework most evenings.

My experience with public school (Elliot is in a self-contained gifted middle school program and Peter is a 9th grader taking mostly upper class courses) is that there is SO MUCH class time wasted. The teachers truly seem to assume that students will simply refuse to do anything that isn't gamified and fun. And there is zero chance they will review for a test or finish a writing assignment at home, so everything has to be done in class.

In both 7th and 9th grade Advanced English classes, the students spend at least one class period a week playing Blooket to review vocabulary words. That is one fifth of their class time playing a video game trying to motivate them to learn random, unconnected vocabulary words. On one hand, I really, really wish they would spend that time reading books which I think would be more beneficial for their vocabulary, but OTOH, if they truly think Blooket games and vocab tests are necessary, then assign the Blookets to be played at home. They argue that lots of kids wouldn't play the games at home and then they wouldn't learn the words...which is probably true, but how is that attitude preparing kids for college where they will absolutely have to do reading and studying on their own outside of class?

Peter was given an entire week of class time, so 5 hours in class, to write a 1.5 page personal memoir. I asked if they were given a lot of instruction on how to write a memoir - no. I asked if the teacher was walking around during that time conferencing with students and helping them strengthen their writing - no. Peter said that most of the kids cranked it out on day 1, and then spend the rest of the week playing video games on their school issued Chromebooks. In those circumstances, I would much rather the writing be assigned as homework so the class time could be used more productively.

[TechWife]

12 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

But it’s all the parents’ fault for giving the kids iPads instead of parenting, according to the teachers on TikTok.
...

Honestly, they aren't wrong. But, the fact that there are developmentally inappropriate demands and that developmental deficiencies aren't appropriately addressed is a problem in school.

[Dmmetler]

The reason for art, music, PE, etc being specialist areas is to provide something for kids to do while the classroom teachers have time for planning, prep, and meetings. 

 

It's fairly common for students to rotate in grades 4-6 which lets teachers specialize in LA or Math, much less common in K-3. I have seen some paired classes in schools using an open classroom model.

 

FWIW, I am confident that any of my elementary music Ed graduates could teach an elementary school grade level class because the degree was essentially a music degree AND an ELED licensing program, with electives focused on music teaching-if the program is inadequate for them it's also inadequate for ELED majors. I  am a lot less confident that the ELED majors could teach music because they could get certified with one music class, which could be music appreciation. If you can't read music, it's going to be hard to do anything but hit "play" on a recording. 

[wendyroo]

8 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

If you can't read music, it's going to be hard to do anything but hit "play" on a recording. 

When I was in elementary (late 80s and early 90s) and when Elliot was in elementary (2 years ago), weekly "music" classes never involved sheet music.

Every year we learned the instruments of the orchestra and listened to clips of each playing. By upper elementary we were taught about instrument families. We got to "play" tambourines and maracas, and Elliot's class had Boomwhackers - but not in a "learn to play" way, just in a cacophonous "experiment with creating sounds" kind of way. We played some jumping games - me with bamboo rods that stung your ankles when you jumped at the wrong time, and Elliot with elastic bands stretched between kids' legs. By fifth grade we were taught whole, half and quarter notes, but not on a staff, just as clapping patterns.

There was not a piano in either my elementary music classroom back in the day or Elliot's now. Elliot's middle school music classroom does have three pianos, and the kids are taught to read and play very simplistic sheet music.

[frogger]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

There shouldn't be homework.  If we want to close the achievement gap, we can't be offloading practice (or reading or anything else) to home.

Of course the problem isn't just homework.  There needs to be a sense of urgency in the classroom that isn't there.  There is a lot to cover.  It isn't ok not to get to everything.  And we need to get an army of adult volunteers lined up to sit with kids to help them practice reading and arithmetic every single day.

I am not sure if we are on the same page and you realize this is a high school literature class I was talking about. Not sure how clear I was on that.

 

Reading a novel aloud in a high school class cause kids can't read it on their own is a waste of time. Reading aloud is slower. You could give a class period now and then to catch up and definitly plays read aloud in class makes sense but I have a hard time with you have to do everything together in high school. That is a tedious waste of time for the majority of the students. 

Edited to add: I totally agree with you on homework in primary school though. Children should in learning to read in the class not after school. 

Edited February 10 by frogger
Additional disclaimer

[frogger]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

. The teachers truly seem to assume that students will simply refuse to do anything that isn't gamified and fun.

And there is zero chance they will review for a test or finish a writing assignment at home, so everything has to be done in class.

 

Yes!

I don't know how much is what the teachers think versus what they actually experience. Is it 10% of the class, 50%, or 90% that won't work. Makes a big difference in how you handle the class.

Retired teacher  I mentioned earlier is now happily teaching homeschool kids and it is a piece of cake and parents are happy with the progress students are making.  The second one I saw make that switch in 2 years! That leaves the public schools out 2 more teachers though. 😕

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

When I was in elementary (late 80s and early 90s) and when Elliot was in elementary (2 years ago), weekly "music" classes never involved sheet music.

Every year we learned the instruments of the orchestra and listened to clips of each playing. By upper elementary we were taught about instrument families. We got to "play" tambourines and maracas, and Elliot's class had Boomwhackers - but not in a "learn to play" way, just in a cacophonous "experiment with creating sounds" kind of way. We played some jumping games - me with bamboo rods that stung your ankles when you jumped at the wrong time, and Elliot with elastic bands stretched between kids' legs. By fifth grade we were taught whole, half and quarter notes, but not on a staff, just as clapping patterns.

There was not a piano in either my elementary music classroom back in the day or Elliot's now. Elliot's middle school music classroom does have three pianos, and the kids are taught to read and play very simplistic sheet music.

Which usually means that there is no budget for materials and instruments, not that the teacher can't teach it. And EVERY music curriculum involves sheet music-if the district bothered to buy the books vs buying one copy. 

Whole, half, quarter and eighth notes are in the KINDERGARTEN standards, as is mastering steady beat and singing melodic patterns . Playing simple harmonic patterns, like open 5ths, are, too. Simple melodies on percussion instruments comes in early elementary. By 4th grade, students are reading treble clef, playing melodies on recorder, and playing in ensembles, as well as singing rounds, canons, and simple 2 part harmonies.  

But it's really hard to teach that if your room doesn't have even a piano and you don't have materials for students to use. 

 

Art and PE have similar standards-and similar problems. We aren't child care. We aren't a fun place for kids to spend an hour so the real teachers get a break. And as long as we're treated as such, you won't have an effective art, music, or PE program. 

 

 

 

[SKL]

The homework issue is difficult.  I get why they don't want to require it - they know that there are reasons why some kids won't / can't do it.  They also know that the ones who can will usually at least read at home, and often much more, without a school assignment.  (In some cases, assigning homework to these kids causes them to use their time less wisely rather than more.)

But, I always wanted my kid to have meaningful homework in elementary school, because she needed the practice, and it's usually easier to say "your teacher requires this (and all your classmates are doing it too)" than "I want you (probably only you) to do this."  We had issues with homework ... usually multiple teachers would pile it on the same day, which was often the day we had multiple after-school activities.  😛  But on balance, I'd rather have some meaningful homework than none - at least for core classes.  (Don't get me started [again] on the art homework ....)

I was told when registering my kids for the public high school that they would only have homework for honors / AP classes.  I guess that makes sense - if you're choosing a college prep path, you should expect to do more.  It didn't really work out that way, but I don't know how much of that is my kids' individual issues vs. the teachers' expectations.

Edited February 10 by SKL

[Rosie_0801]

My daughter attended a girls' school in a wealthy neighbourhood and is currently at a low socio trade school that doesn't bother with homework because no one will do it. She's actually better off at the "crappy" school even though they don't teach much because they take so much less time to teach pathetically little than the "good" school did, and what they do teach they are more thorough about. This means my kid has time to pack her schedule with extra curriculars, Coursera and the after schooling her old mum assigns.  She'd have achieved more with someone actively teaching her, but that was not to be. Happily she has goals independent of the adults in her life, so has the initiative to find something to work at.

I think a lot of it is that old problem of thinking testing is actually teaching.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I am not sure if we are on the same page and you realize this is a high school literature class I was talking about. Not sure how clear I was on that.

 

Reading a novel aloud in a high school class cause kids can't read it on their own is a waste of time. Reading aloud is slower. You could give a class period now and then to catch up and definitly plays read aloud in class makes sense but I have a hard time with you have to do everything together in high school. That is a tedious waste of time for the majority of the students. 

Edited to add: I totally agree with you on homework in primary school though. Children should in learning to read in the class not after school. 

I do wonder how safe it is to assume the majority of those kids *can* read well enough to read a novel at home.  Yes, they *should* by 9th grade but I see so many teachers complaining about kids that can’t read even in middle and high school.   I know 9th grade teachers aren’t doing reading skills assessments but it’s probably something to think about.  

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do wonder how safe it is to assume the majority of those kids *can* read well enough to read a novel at home.  Yes, they *should* by 9th grade but I see so many teachers complaining about kids that can’t read even in middle and high school.   I know 9th grade teachers aren’t doing reading skills assessments but it’s probably something to think about.  

Wouldn't they have had some standardized testing to identify kids who are below a certain benchmark, who therefore need additional support?

Though, there are different kinds of "can / can't."  One of my kids has all the "reading skills," but due to vision and possibly other issues, she reads slowly and without a ton of stamina.  I am happy to buy her the audiobook when she's required to read an entire novel.  But she says that doesn't work when the assignment includes annotating the book.  So she just pushes through it, but it's not exactly easy for her, despite scoring above average on reading assessments.

I also meant to say - I remember when my 10th/11th grade college prep English teacher used to read to our class.  I think the shared experience benefited the discussions that followed.  But, she did also require us to read at home.  Just mentioning this to say that I think there is benefit to reading aloud, even if everyone in the room is a voracious reader.  But especially if they aren't.

[frogger]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do wonder how safe it is to assume the majority of those kids *can* read well enough to read a novel at home.  Yes, they *should* by 9th grade but I see so many teachers complaining about kids that can’t read even in middle and high school.   I know 9th grade teachers aren’t doing reading skills assessments but it’s probably something to think about.  

I agree. But how is a high school teacher with 30+ kids each hour supposed to handle that. But that takes us back to the K-8 reform that has been mentioned all along. 

I also see pushing kids along fast in elementary school leads to burn out and hatred of school. You can force a 6 year old to do something hard, maybe developmentally inappropriate but forcing a 16 year old is a whole different dynamic. At the time they should be taking off and speeding up, many shut down or give up because they are mentally done.

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, Lecka said:

Just as an aside, I have also seen r/teachers and I don’t think it is representative of the 3 school districts that we have lived in.

Oh, I get that - people who are doing well and enjoying their job don't have to go on to Reddit to complain. You only see the negatives. 

16 hours ago, Terabith said:

Well, we are also setting kids up, to be fair, by requiring incredibly developmentally inappropriate activities from them.  Of course there are going to be massive behavior issues when you demand that kids do things they are not physically or neurologically capable of, from the time they are about 3 years old and certainly by 5.  We demand that tiny people who can't cross their midlines or draw diagonal lines (because they are three) write letters and that five year olds write paragraphs and explain their reasoning in written form.  We don't allow them to play, make decisions, move around, or have appropriate independence that they are wired for, but we demand that they write and do abstract reasoning, but then we *never teach them how to form letters*.  They are set up to fail.  They are punished when they fail.  And then we act shocked and like it's their fault that they fail.  

And while kids can recover easily from not reading fluently or writing paragraphs at age 5 or even 7, they can't recover easily from destroyed self concepts and internalized sense of failure.

All this!!!!!! I did comment on Reddit about a kindergarten assignment, where they had to write down 10 things that started with the letter F that they could find in their home. A parent had posted about it, wondering if it was okay that the kid spelled words wrong (because hello, a 5 year old can't spell Fridge even if it was a real word). I said that hey, maybe it would be more developmentally appropriate to have kids who are still learning the alphabet/basic phonics to just draw a picture of objects, or dictate the words to an adult. I was told no, that it was very important to have kids that age writing. I am apparently insane for thinking requiring writing should come AFTER knowing both how to form letters and spell a decent number of words. 

4 hours ago, wendyroo said:

IPeter was given an entire week of class time, so 5 hours in class, to write a 1.5 page personal memoir. I asked if they were given a lot of instruction on how to write a memoir - no. I asked if the teacher was walking around during that time conferencing with students and helping them strengthen their writing - no. Peter said that most of the kids cranked it out on day 1, and then spend the rest of the week playing video games on their school issued Chromebooks. In those circumstances, I would much rather the writing be assigned as homework so the class time could be used more productively.

Years ago DS24 decided to try public highschool, for 9th. He got into a "Scholars Academy" program. The writing "instruction" consisted of going to the computer lab and writing short essay responses to various questions to practice for the end of year standardized writing test. There was ZERO instruction. Worse, when they were done, they were told to just delete their answers. No one actually GRADED or reviewed or corrected or critiqued it. Somehow, they were expected to get good at writing by just....writing, with no feedback at all nor any instruction. 

My DS was so annoyed that he hacked into the system to save and email himself one of his responses that he was particularly proud of. But seriously, how do you expect kids to care about their writing when no one will ever read it????

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I am not sure if we are on the same page and you realize this is a high school literature class I was talking about. Not sure how clear I was on that.

 

Reading a novel aloud in a high school class cause kids can't read it on their own is a waste of time. Reading aloud is slower. You could give a class period now and then to catch up and definitly plays read aloud in class makes sense but I have a hard time with you have to do everything together in high school. That is a tedious waste of time for the majority of the students. 

Edited to add: I totally agree with you on homework in primary school though. Children should in learning to read in the class not after school. 

Yes, it's again about age appropriate levels. In early years, kids are learning to read, so they need to be doing that with instruction in class, with someone there to check if they are getting it. But later, they are reading to learn, so doing reading outside of class lets them then discuss the reading IN class. If class time is for reading, there isn't time to discuss. 

[Heartstrings]

27 minutes ago, frogger said:

I agree. But how is a high school teacher with 30+ kids each hour supposed to handle that. But that takes us back to the K-8 reform that has been mentioned all along. 

It’s not necessarily that she can do anything different.  It just feels different if you know you are reading aloud because too many of these kids can’t do it, or can’t comprehend it versus feeling like you have to read aloud because all of these kids are just so goshdarn lazy and irresponsible. 

[frogger]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s not necessarily that she can do anything different.  It just feels different if you know you are reading aloud because too many of these kids can’t do it, or can’t comprehend it versus feeling like you have to read aloud because all of these kids are just so goshdarn lazy and irresponsible. 

To be honest with you she didn't say that to me. She just said that is how she did things. Every decent teacher knows that every kid has their own story/reasons why they can't/won't do something. 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

The homework issue is difficult.  I get why they don't want to require it - they know that there are reasons why some kids won't / can't do it.  They also know that the ones who can will usually at least read at home, and often much more, without a school assignment.  (In some cases, assigning homework to these kids causes them to use their time less wisely rather than more.)

But, I always wanted my kid to have meaningful homework in elementary school, because she needed the practice, and it's usually easier to say "your teacher requires this (and all your classmates are doing it too)" than "I want you (probably only you) to do this."  We had issues with homework ... usually multiple teachers would pile it on the same day, which was often the day we had multiple after-school activities.  😛  But on balance, I'd rather have some meaningful homework than none - at least for core classes.  (Don't get me started [again] on the art homework ....)

I was told when registering my kids for the public high school that they would only have homework for honors / AP classes.  I guess that makes sense - if you're choosing a college prep path, you should expect to do more.  It didn't really work out that way, but I don't know how much of that is my kids' individual issues vs. the teachers' expectations.

If the schoolday is already from 8 to 3, which is wildly developmentally inappropriate for an elementary school kid, they should use the time at school to teach the kids, period.

Back home, elementary is out by noon. The long school day here doesn't translate into any measurable educational gain. Because there's only so much concentration a kid has. Demanding homework on top of it is ludicrous. 

Edited February 10 by regentrude

[SKL]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

If the schoolday is already from 8 to 3, which is wildly developmentally inappropriate for an elementary school kid, they should use the time at school to teach the kids, period.

Back home, elementary is out by noon. The long school day here doesn't translate into any measurable educational gain. Because there's only so much concentration a kid has. Demanding homework on top of it is ludicrous. 

Oh sure, some of it probably was developmentally wrong.  But their school days had a lot more than just academics.  Their school day was broken up by multiple recesses, lunch, free reading, library time, group stuff, art/gym/music time, etc.  But yes, there were dumb things in there too.

One thing that may have been an issue is that the school had just stared using Singapore Math In Focus the year my kids started 1st grade.  The teacher was on the verge of retirement and admitted that she didn't understand the math curriculum.  Whether because of the curriculum or how it was taught, it was pretty awful for my kid.  The workbook was full of "trick questions" for a kid who hasn't been properly taught.  It wasn't a great way to start the academic experience.

2nd grade was when they tried to layer a lot of "common core" stuff on top of the Math In Focus.  So on top of the trick questions, they were being asked to provide tedious explanations for obvious computations.  For example, "draw 3 ways to illustrate 2 x 3."  "Explain in words why your answer is 8."  These stupid worksheets were very time consuming, which is probably why they used to come home as homework.

Outside of that, because my kid wasn't getting the basics at school, we would spend evening time with Base 10 blocks and Cuisenaire rods and extra practice workbooks.

I had her tested multiple times for a math disability.  She didn't qualify for an IEP.  So we did what we needed to do.

If I had it to do over, I would have started much earlier with math manipulatives and previewed whatever they were going to study next in math.  Maybe that would have helped the lessons stick in school.  For that matter, maybe I would have put my kids in public school (instead of parochial).  Well, hindsight is awesome.  (Would have told Covid not to come into the US too, since that was a heck of a setback in grades 8-10.  Dang.)

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

If the schoolday is already from 8 to 3, which is wildly developmentally inappropriate for an elementary school kid, they should use the time at school to teach the kids, period.

I tutored in homework club (where kids with failing grades did homework). I think it would benefit students if there was school/class time assigned to working on homework. So they have a space to ask questions when they get stuck.

[KungFuPanda]

Speaking as an elementary ed major, I was way more terrified that I’d be in a situation where I had to teach a music or art class than I was of teaching math. I can barely read music and I cannot carry a tune. I did end up learning and teaching the Arabic rhythms, but you can’t exactly spend a school year teaching 2nd graders to play finger cymbals. My grandmother taught piano and organ and I did NOT inherit her gifts. (I do have her hands though 🤣)  

It makes no sense when they cut music programs because music demands so much mental discipline from a person.  Our local schools have orchestra in elementary and pull out lessons for instruments. I don’t know how they manage the logistics, but the parents love it. I always outsourced music and art when I homeschooled because I was definitely unqualified to teach those subjects and I wasn’t about to homeschool and not AT LEAST keep up with public school. 

[Tina]

I was told the purpose of algebra on up is to teach our brains to think differently, to grow the synapses in our brain, as it were.  Solving math problems before that is one thing, but you really stretch the mind learning the others.

My neighbor likes to build things, so he uses trig building gazebos and other big items.

[DawnM]

The purpose of math education is to suck all the joy out of learning.

#NotSTEMandOKwithThat

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, DawnM said:

The purpose of math education is to suck all the joy out of learning.

#NotSTEMandOKwithThat

Unfortunately,  elementary school teachers voicing this sentiment has been shown to contribute to this attitude in the kids, particularly among girls who want to emulate their (mostly female) teachers.

[SKL]

59 minutes ago, DawnM said:

The purpose of math education is to suck all the joy out of learning.

#NotSTEMandOKwithThat

LOL.  The other night my kid looked at me hopefully and said, "I won't have to take any math after high school, right?"  Wrong, you'll have to take stats again in college.  Well, at least it isn't calculus.  😛

[Faith-manor]

14 hours ago, Clarita said:

I tutored in homework club (where kids with failing grades did homework). I think it would benefit students if there was school/class time assigned to working on homework. So they have a space to ask questions when they get stuck.

I truly feel elementary school has too much nonsense stuff, too much test prep, and too many students per classroom. This doesn't help. As a child, I did not have significant amounts of homework. We always had plenty of time to work in class, and our teachers would rove around the room while looking over shoulders to see how we were doing, answering questions, and giving guidance with words of encouragement. But, we only had 20-22 children per classroom. Now it is 35-40 per teacher. No way does that adult have time to do this.

 

[SKL]

51 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I truly feel elementary school has too much nonsense stuff, too much test prep, and too many students per classroom. This doesn't help. As a child, I did not have significant amounts of homework. We always had plenty of time to work in class, and our teachers would rove around the room while looking over shoulders to see how we were doing, answering questions, and giving guidance with words of encouragement. But, we only had 20-22 children per classroom. Now it is 35-40 per teacher. No way does that adult have time to do this.

The problem I would have with school time for homework is that my kids wouldn't use that time wisely at all.  They wouldn't ask the questions.  And if their teacher were there "making sure they did it," it would simply be more time doing the thing that didn't work in the first place. 

Part of our problem was that at least some of the teachers had an attitude about my kid.  They thought she was a bad seed or something.  (She's not perfect, but she's not the devil either.  But even if she were the worst kid ever, how does it help to spend more time with a person who sees no good in you?)

My kid got to go for "extra help" for maybe 30 minutes per week with a "specialist" at school.  She mainly gave the kids their homework answers.  Anyway, 30 minutes per week divided by probably 6-8 kids is not enough for intervention.

I tried additional math tutoring and then "homework help" at Sylvan, starting maybe in 5th or 6th grade?  That was a flop for both of my kids, and my mom friends felt the same.  The hope was that they would have some one-on-one (or maybe one-on-two) with someone who would figure out my kid's particular problem was and work on it in a targeted manner.  The reality was that they hired young adult students who didn't actually care.  My kids' math test results actually declined between the first and last Sylvan session.  😕

Khan academy is good for what it is, but for whatever reason, it didn't work out for my math-challenged kid.  (She has been using Quizlet for about a year, which she says is very helpful.  I'm not sure how much is actual learning vs. just passing.  But honestly, at this point, whatever works.)

Fortunately or unfortunately, in elementary school, my math straggler seemed to learn best with me sitting with her one-on-one.  Obviously most kids don't have that luxury.

I wish I had the solutions, but since I can't control other people, I don't know what else to do.  There should be excellent tutoring resources that spend meaningful time with every kid who struggles.  We definitely don't have that.

[Clarita]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

The problem I would have with school time for homework is that my kids wouldn't use that time wisely at all.  They wouldn't ask the questions. 

At some point kids have to choose to want to learn. Yes not all kids would take advantage of homework time, but there are some that would and would benefit from it. It was much more often than not that I started to see kids try after getting help than those that just wasted time. 

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kid got to go for "extra help" for maybe 30 minutes per week with a "specialist" at school.  She mainly gave the kids their homework answers.

That's garbage. I was a teen with 5 min of training to tutor and I knew better than to just give kids the answers. 

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

At some point kids have to choose to want to learn.

Well, that is the whole problem with school. The kids don't want to be there, and don't get any choice in the matter. They don't get to choose their subjects till (in Australia) year 9. They don't get to follow their interests or to have their interests valued - at the moment in NSW primary schools they're returning to direct instruction and have thrown out any type of show & tell or similar. They may as well be a cog in the system. 

[Heartstrings]

It’s just so hard to try to find one size fits all responses that public school requires.   I would have hated a required homework time, I had high grades and always finished my work quickly.  Mandated homework time would have been either nap time or even more silent reading time.  We actually started homeschooling because my oldest would finish his work in only a few minutes and wasn’t capable of sitting silently and staring straight ahead for the rest of the class period.  
 

ETA: I can see the utility of it though, a lot of kids have parents who aren’t able to help with homework.  Many parents aren’t capable of the work or are otherwise not able to help.  

Edited February 11 by Heartstrings

[Dmmetler]

I actually buy an app subscription that provides online support for the piano books I use  because I found that about half my "never practicers" started practicing when I used it. It's the same content, and I put post it flags in the books and have an assignment notebook, and have tried every practice record/incentive under the planet. And what has worked best is the stupid app, where all the music is in there, they get stars for playing, it automatically sends great performances to the parent's email, I can send little graphics when I see they've been on a lot, and I can look at it and say "great job! You played 68 songs this week!!"

 

And these are kids who presumably WANT to play piano, and parents who are paying $50/hr for them to take private lessons, and I don't think anyone expects one lesson a week to provide complete instruction (if I had them 5 hours/week for piano, there would be no need for home practice for anyone who isn't planning to major in music!) 

 

So I can kind of understand schools assigning online stuff for homework if they get similar responses. 

 

 

 

Edited February 11 by Dmmetler