No student loan forgiveness

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

My concern is that schools increase their tuition rates etc. as subsidies increase.  I am not in favor of subsidizing further irrational cost increases.

They raise the prices anyways.  Federal Loans haven't gone up in over 20 years but tuition has gone up 69% in those same 20 years.   

 

https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/college-costs-over-time/#:~:text=In the 20 years between,%2C while tuition rose 69%.&text=College room and board used,consistently been costlier since 2002.

In the 20 years between 2000 and 2020, room and board increased about 50%, while tuition rose 69%.^{Note Reference[1}

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[maize]

21 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I honestly think the decision makes zero sense and was major SCOTUS overreach. And I won't say that about most of the other decisions I've disagreed with (like, you won't catch me saying that about Dobbs, for example, or the Harvard and UNC cases, though I find those decisions more morally repugnant than this one). Like it or not, this seems to me to be well within the government's purview. 

If the government can't forgive these very specific loans, I want the banks and the automakers who had forgiven loans to pay them back now. I want every small business who took PPP loans to return them stat. If the government can't offer loan forgiveness to loans they set up, then they can't. If they can, then they can. Make up your mind.

The plan looked like executive overreach to me and a bad precedent. There are reasons we give the legislature not the executive the power of the purse. Our executive branch has been expanding in power for a very long time, and I don't think the trend is a healthy one. Reigning that in is entirely within the purview of the judicial branch.

[maize]

Expanded income-based forgiveness makes more sense to me than blanket loan forgiveness.

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

They raise the prices anyways.  Federal Loans haven't gone up in over 20 years but tuition has gone up 69% in those same 20 years.  

 

https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/college-costs-over-time/#:~:text=In the 20 years between,%2C while tuition rose 69%.&text=College room and board used,consistently been costlier since 2002.

In the 20 years between 2000 and 2020, room and board increased about 50%, while tuition rose 69%.^{Note Reference[1}

That is an average annual increase in tuition of 2.67% per year over the 20 year period, which outpaces the overall rate of inflation of about 2.06% over the same time period.  However, most state schools have seen a tremendous decrease in state funding provided,, and the return on university endowments has been low over the past few decades.  At the same time the administrative costs of government mandated programs have risen significantly.  When looking at the big picture, it is surprising that universities have not had to increase costs to students more.

Room and board costs have typically not had the same government support that the academic side of the university has had; therefore the decrease in state funding has not impacted this part of the budgeting of universities as much.  a 50% increase in these costs over the past 20 years puts the incrase at just about the average US inflation rate over the period.  

[Halftime Hope]

I see a lot of negative comments upthread about the PPP loans, but we know of many businesses, small and medium, including my employer (at that time) that used the money, as intended, to keep from laying off workers during the worst of COVID. There is zero reason that money should not have been forgiven if it was used as intended, so I don't understand the negativity about it as an entire class of government aid in a difficult circumstance, just like the government gave aid to students by putting a hold on their SL payments.

Accounting for the PPP funds and their expenditure was part of my employers' yearly audit; the money was spent in two fiscal years to pay personnel. It had very specific rules for use, and the auditors examined that for compliance with the terms of the loan.

That said, I'm certain people found ways to use the funds fraudulently; maybe chasing that down would be a good way to keep all the new IRS personnel busy.

[Grace Hopper]

2 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I see a lot of negative comments upthread about the PPP loans, but we know of many businesses, small and medium, including my employer (at that time) that used the money, as intended, to keep from laying off workers during the worst of COVID. There is zero reason that money should not have been forgiven if it was used as intended, so I don't understand the negativity about it as an entire class of government aid in a difficult circumstance, just like the government gave aid to students by putting a hold on their SL payments.

Accounting for the PPP funds and their expenditure was part of my employers' yearly audit; the money was spent in two fiscal years to pay personnel. It had very specific rules for use, and the auditors examined that for compliance with the terms of the loan.

That said, I'm certain people found ways to use the funds fraudulently; maybe chasing that down would be a good way to keep all the new IRS personnel busy.

I think PPP was a great thing and saved a lot of businesses, kept food on the table for a lot of American families. 
 

However, there was great opportunity for fraud. And those who filed fraudulent applications and received loans and then forgiveness based on false info… they should be exposed. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I've heard about a number of court cases for ppp loan fraud so it does sound like some who abused the program are facing consequences.

When someone shared the link way back to the site where you  can look up what businesses got PPP loans,  I did a search for my town just to see what businesses got the loans and saw some things pop up that were very clear fraud. Including a neighbor who got a loan for a small business she had run out of her home like a decade ago but hadn’t been doing anything with for years before Covid started and she got a big chunk of money for that business. I saw others like that as well— personal small businesses that people weren’t currently running anyway.

41 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

My college students have found that their two English courses have been extremely poor quality.

This has been our experience as well. One kid had one where the content itself was very good, but still there was no writing instruction and feedback. The others it has all been pretty much a joke compared to what they did for high school English at home.

[Shelydon]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

This has been our experience as well. One kid had one where the content itself was very good, but still there was no writing instruction and feedback. The others it has all been pretty much a joke compared to what they did for high school English at home.

Once they start their major classes, the courses have been good. But those basics are truly awful. The thing I'm finding most concerning is that peers and roommates coming out of public school are finding the courses challenging.  I've had at least 10 college students tell me that they made A's in high school but can't pass college algebra and have taken it two or three times.  At first I thought it was an issue of just not going to class, but it's like they didn't learn anything in school prior to college. I think it's one of the reasons why the basics are so abysmal, the kids can't do them. 

[Dmmetler]

On room and board, I am convinced L's dorm room is about the cheapest housing in the area, and there are parents every year who apply for an off campus waiver assuming they’ll save money via their kid getting an apartment with roommates and discover…nope!
 

I also was surprised at how much our grocery bill went down. 

 

So while college costs are high,I think part of that is because living is expensive, and a 15 hour/week college work study job at minimum wage and 8 weeks of working at $15/hr over the summer just doesn't cover most of it. Even without tuition, the fact that school IS a full time job but someone has to pay living expenses adds up. And that's true even for kids who live at home...it’s just that it’s hidden in the family budget. 

 

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

On room and board, I am convinced L's dorm room is about the cheapest housing in the area, and there are parents every year who apply for an off campus waiver assuming they’ll save money via their kid getting an apartment with roommates and discover…nope!
 

I also was surprised at how much our grocery bill went down. 

 

So while college costs are high,I think part of that is because living is expensive, and a 15 hour/week college work study job at minimum wage and 8 weeks of working at $15/hr over the summer just doesn't cover most of it. Even without tuition, the fact that school IS a full time job but someone has to pay living expenses adds up. And that's true even for kids who live at home...it’s just that it’s hidden in the family budget. 

 

My oldest is spending the summer working for $12 an hour (because min wage here is still $7.25!!).  He save 80% of his paycheck for tuition, leaving out only enough for gas and the occasional meal out bc his work has no break room.   He’s only able to do that because I pay for everything else, phone, food, most clothes, insurance on the necessary car that was a gift from grandparents.  
 

That will be enough to cover half of his tuition at what I’m guessing is one of the cheapest 4 year institutions in the country.  

[maize]

20 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

My oldest is spending the summer working for $12 an hour (because min wage here is still $7.25!!).  He save 80% of his paycheck for tuition, leaving out only enough for gas and the occasional meal out bc his work has no break room.   He’s only able to do that because I pay for everything else, phone, food, most clothes, insurance on the necessary car that was a gift from grandparents.  
 

That will be enough to cover half of his tuition at what I’m guessing is one of the cheapest 4 year institutions in the country.  

We also have the puny federal minimum wage that hasn't been increased for years. That actually would be higher on my priorities of things to address than student loan forgiveness. Among other things, it helps a higher percentage of the lowest earners in the country.

[SKL]

47 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

I think PPP was a great thing and saved a lot of businesses, kept food on the table for a lot of American families. 
 

However, there was great opportunity for fraud. And those who filed fraudulent applications and received loans and then forgiveness based on false info… they should be exposed. 

Yes, fraud should be exposed and punished.  Fraud in the PPP program, the student loan program, and any other program.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, maize said:

The plan looked like executive overreach to me and a bad precedent. There are reasons we give the legislature not the executive the power of the purse. Our executive branch has been expanding in power for a very long time, and I don't think the trend is a healthy one. Reining that in is entirely within the purview of the judicial branch.

 I mean, sure. But why is it greater overreach than loaning automakers money? Or anything else the executive branch does? It’s not. So why is it targeted successfully when the others are not? Poor people get pooped on while corporations get a pass.

[Halftime Hope]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

I think PPP was a great thing and saved a lot of businesses, kept food on the table for a lot of American families. 
 

However, there was great opportunity for fraud. And those who filed fraudulent applications and received loans and then forgiveness based on false info… they should be exposed. 

I think we agree. But upthread, there were several very disparaging remarks as though PPP were ALL bad. I just wanted to remind us that many of us normal working people have PPP to thank for being able to continue working during the pandemic. Those that abused it should suffer legal consequences, full stop.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Shelydon said:

Once they start their major classes, the courses have been good. But those basics are truly awful. The thing I'm finding most concerning is that peers and roommates coming out of public school are finding the courses challenging.  I've had at least 10 college students tell me that they made A's in high school but can't pass college algebra and have taken it two or three times.  At first I thought it was an issue of just not going to class, but it's like they didn't learn anything in school prior to college. I think it's one of the reasons why the basics are so abysmal, the kids can't do them. 

PARENTS!  If their kid does poorly they find a way to get their child to retake the test until they do well, or they push in and do the work for them, etc....

The kids don't actually learn much and god forbid a teacher actually fail them in high school.   It is crazy.   I have been floored at times we have had to retest, give the kid another chance, heavily curve grade, etc....

Kids aren't allowed to fail while in K-12 anymore, and I can guarantee you that many of them don't know it and just get moved on.

I can also say that, although there are some good teachers, many who are in fields like math or science don't go into teaching.   So I am not sure the kids are getting the best education either.

Edited July 1, 2023 by DawnM

[Happy2BaMom]

17 hours ago, pinball said:

The difference between student loans and PPP is that student loans are taken with the intention they need to be paid back.

PPP was taken knowing that if it was used correctly, it would be forgiven.

So the PPP was nothing but a huge handout, then. Why then was the program developed & continually referred to as "PPP loans"? Why do people have to apply for forgiveness if it's not a "loan"?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[marbel]

11 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

So the PPP was nothing but a huge handout, then. Why then was the program developed & referred to as "PPP loans"?

There were specific requirements for forgiveness. In theory, they would not all be forgiven. 

I worked for a bank that dealt in PPP loans. I didn't work in the loan area, but we saw a lot of fraudulent PPP funds coming into accounts. (Also a lot of fraudulent unemployment deposits, which is always a problem but was much worse during Covid.) I also had to talk to customers who were angry that their loan forgiveness applications were denied because they didn't fit the criteria for it. But yeah, for many if not most, it was not really a loan at all. 

I'm glad there were some folks who were truly saved by that program. 

[Happy2BaMom]

According to this article (CBS), out of $790 BILLION in PPP "loans" (LOL), $757 BILLION has been forgiven.

 

ETA a quote from the article:

"Between two-thirds and three-quarters of the PPP's benefits "did not go to paychecks, however, but instead accrued to business owners and shareholders," the study found, estimating that "about three-quarters of PPP benefits accrued to the top quintile of household income."

Edited July 1, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[Happy2BaMom]

Seems appropriate here.

"Americans are very generous when it comes to giving money to the rich. We are tolerant and forthcoming when it comes to giving away public lands and assets to people who are already overstocked with both. We are generous to corporations-- giving them tax breaks and subsidies, pay their bills when they destroy what doesn't belong to them, bailing them out when they go broke through corruption and inefficiency. We are indulgent toward polluters, prisoners, and white-collar thieves. But we turn stingy when it comes to paying the people who protect our homes or educate our children. And we would far rather see our tax dollars pour freely into the pockets of billionaires than allow a welfare mother living in abject poverty to get one more dinner for her children than she is entitled to by the law."

-Philip Slater

[pinball]

3 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

So the PPP was nothing but a huge handout, then. Why then was the program developed & continually referred to as "PPP loans"? Why do people have to apply for forgiveness if it's not a "loan"?

[Deleted by moderator]

 

[Happy2BaMom]

Just now, pinball said:

Why do some people refer to cutting someone’s d!ck off as gender reassignment surgery?

 

Does one negate the other?

Try something other than "whataboutism".

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Does one negate the other?

Try something other than "whataboutism".

I’ll say it slowly…

l a n g u a g e   c o n t r o l s   t h e   n a r r a t i v e

”shovel ready jobs”, anyone? LOL

 

[Happy2BaMom]

12 minutes ago, pinball said:

I’ll say it slowly…

l a n g u a g e   c o n t r o l s   t h e   n a r r a t i v e

”shovel ready jobs”, anyone? LOL

 

I got that you were deflecting. Speed has nothing to do with it.

You tried to make a point about how PPP loans were inherently different than student loans.

When I asked a direct question that called out the hypocrisy of calling an obvious handout a "loan", you've deflected (twice, now) to completely unrelated topics, in a bid to prove.......that you're OK with deceptive language, as long as it's a program you support?

Are you able to stick to the topic at hand?

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[pinball]

9 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I got that you were deflecting. Speed has nothing to do with it.

You tried to make a point about how PPP loans were inherently different than student loans.

When I asked a direct question that called out the hypocrisy of calling an obvious handout a "loan", you've deflected (twice, now) to completely unrelated topics, in a bid to prove.......that you're OK with deceptive language, as long as it's a program you support?

Are you able to stick to the topic at hand?

 

Yes. No.

[Shelydon]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

PARENTS!  If their kid does poorly they find a way to get their child to retake the test until they do well, or they push in and do the work for them, etc....

The kids don't actually learn much and god forbid a teacher actually fail them in high school.   It is crazy.   I have been floored at times we have had to retest, give the kid another chance, heavily curve grade, etc....

Kids aren't allowed to fail while in K-12 anymore, and I can guarantee you that many of them don't know it and just get moved on.

I can also say that, although there are some good teachers, many who are in fields like math or science don't go into teaching.   So I am not sure the kids are getting the best education either.

Yep. We occasionally have students who join our homeschool group and attempt to take classes as a junior or senior. They are very behind and didn't even know it. My kids' professors always pull them aside and ask where they went to school. 

[EKS]

I am convinced that the crazy increase in college tuition that we've seen in the past few decades is due to the idea that student loans would be the solution to the college affordability problem.

I'm not sure how to solve this problem because I think that the solution is going to be more complicated than just dismantling federal student loan programs and making public universities free or close to free again.  

 

[Sneezyone]

32 minutes ago, EKS said:

I am convinced that the crazy increase in college tuition that we've seen in the past few decades is due to the idea that student loans would be the solution to the college affordability problem.

I'm not sure how to solve this problem because I think that the solution is going to be more complicated than just dismantling federal student loan programs and making public universities free or close to free again.  

 

The solution is to reestablish some sense of mutuality and commonality in governance/policy. Trying to determine the the right aid vs. wrong/undeserving recipients (something that applies to all programs - Medicaid, Medicare, Soc. Security, TANF, student aid, farm subsidies,  etc.) inevitably leads to policy making that hurts ALL recipients by reducing support for any aid at all. You end up with people not wanting 'others' to have access to some or other social good - whether it's a swimming pool or an affordable, quality education - removing access to that good in ways that harm everyone, themselves included for years to come. We see this pattern repeated over and over and over again and yet folks can't seem to help themselves. What led to the decrease in support for public K12 and higher ed in the first place was the forced racial integration of our educational institutions and the (painfully slow) demise of redlining. Never mind that not all of those upset with integration could afford to move their kids to private schools or exclusive enclaves with great public schools. As long as those others lost out #winning. 'Cept it didn't work out that way now did it? Everyone suffered by devaluing and divesting from public education.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Seems appropriate here.

"Americans are very generous when it comes to giving money to the rich. We are tolerant and forthcoming when it comes to giving away public lands and assets to people who are already overstocked with both. We are generous to corporations-- giving them tax breaks and subsidies, pay their bills when they destroy what doesn't belong to them, bailing them out when they go broke through corruption and inefficiency. We are indulgent toward polluters, prisoners, and white-collar thieves. But we turn stingy when it comes to paying the people who protect our homes or educate our children. And we would far rather see our tax dollars pour freely into the pockets of billionaires than allow a welfare mother living in abject poverty to get one more dinner for her children than she is entitled to by the law."

-Philip Slater

Americans have lived for over 40 years with trickle down economics being pushed by one political party. So people under 50 or so don't even really remember the time before that was a thing. It seems to me that regular people being pitted against other regular people is something many have been "taught" by politicians for several reasons, one being as a distraction from noticing all the dollars flowing to corporations and the ultra wealthy. It's a lot easier for most people to get riled up thinking their neighbor who gets supplemental nutrition assistance (or whatever it's called now) or their cousin's kid who (almost) got a student loan forgiven is getting a break that they're missing out on than it is for them to follow the billions in giveaways to corporations, most of which is definitely not trickling down.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Does one negate the other?

Try something other than "whataboutism".

The whole sidetrack about PPP in this thread is pure whataboutism.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

According to this article (CBS), out of $790 BILLION in PPP "loans" (LOL), $757 BILLION has been forgiven.

 

ETA a quote from the article:

"Between two-thirds and three-quarters of the PPP's benefits "did not go to paychecks, however, but instead accrued to business owners and shareholders," the study found, estimating that "about three-quarters of PPP benefits accrued to the top quintile of household income."

This quote misrepresents the study which stated:

"Byimplication,theremaining$335to$395billion(66 to77percent)accruedtoownersofbusinessandcorporatestakeholders,includingcreditorsand suppliers,etc."-P 18

The study said that about two-thirds to three-quarters went to owners and STAKEHOLDERS (not shareholders).  These stakeholders included situations like a restaurant continuing to pay its lease, a furniture manufacturer paying its suppliers for wood, and a day care paying its electric bill.  Those companies receiving the rent, the payment for wood, the payment for electricity etc. were more likely to remain open and be able to pay their employees.  (The study counted these payments as payments received by STAKEHOLDERS, and did not further determine how many workers kept their jobs because the stakeholders received their pay). 

I am not a fan of PPP and personally think there are many problematic things about it; but it isn't correct to conclude from this study that the majority of the money just ended up as profit for business owners.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This quote misrepresents the study which stated:

"Byimplication,theremaining$335to$395billion(66 to77percent)accruedtoownersofbusinessandcorporatestakeholders,includingcreditorsand suppliers,etc."-P 18

The study said that about two-thirds to three-quarters went to owners and STAKEHOLDERS (not shareholders).  These stakeholders included situations like a restaurant continuing to pay its lease, a furniture manufacturer paying its suppliers for wood, and a day care paying its electric bill.  Those companies receiving the rent, the payment for wood, the payment for electricity etc. were more likely to remain open and be able to pay their employees.  (The study counted these payments as payments received by STAKEHOLDERS, and did not further determine how many workers kept their jobs because the stakeholders received their pay). 

I am not a fan of PPP and personally think there are many problematic things about it; but it isn't correct to conclude from this study that the majority of the money just ended up as profit for business owners.

As a business owner that was hit pretty hard by Covid shutdowns, the idea that our staying open didn't benefit our employees is ridiculous.

Our hotel didn't qualify for PPP because we had just opened shortly before the shutdowns.  So we didn't have enough payroll history.  But if we'd qualified, then yes, we would have applied.  Instead, we had to practically live at the hotel and work around the clock on top of our other jobs.  But we're evil business owners, clearly.  Even when business started picking back up, it was incredibly hard to attract and keep employees, as the government was paying them relatively high unemployment benefits to not work.  It's not like the little guy wasn't getting any of the Covid relief.

But we all know that business is evil, capitalism is evil, having this forum on these computer screens is evil because profit motive is the devil.

[Heartstrings]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

The whole sidetrack about PPP in this thread is pure whataboutism.

The PPP side trail was more about the feeling of being a little guy and being💩 on by the government over and over.   Somehow it’s always millionaires and  billionaires who need help, after 9/11, after 2008, tax cuts, PPP during COVID, on and on.   10s of thousands of dollars going to people and companies with millions and billions.  But I guess we’re not just supposed to continue to take, we’re supposed to be cheerful about it, while they brag in public about record profits.  

Edited July 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The PPP side trail was more about the feeling of being a little guy and being💩 on by the government over and over.   Somehow it’s always millionaires and  billionaires who need help.   $100s of thousands of dollars going to people and companies with millions and billions.  But I guess we’re not just supposed to continue to take, we’re supposed to be cheerful about it, while they brag in public about record profits.  

Personally I think the government should stay out of a lot of things they meddle in, but that doesn't mean that it's shitting on us when it doesn't give us handouts / bailouts.  And it really doesn't have anything to do with student loan forgiveness at all.  It's just a distraction in this particular discussion.

[Sneezyone]

We didn't used to consider affordable public education a handout but here we are.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

The whole sidetrack about PPP in this thread is pure whataboutism.

I disagree. They are both government loan programs, but they were given very different treatment. I think auto and bank bailouts are an even better comparison though.

But really, anything the executive branch does that's not addressed in the Constitution is fair game here. If this is executive overreach, then there's a remedy, which is the legislature. Or, SCOTUS needs to cancel all of it. And I mean, all of it. And that would be a major about face for our whole system.

[SanDiegoMom]

Correct me if I am wrong as I often am! I thought that the Auto bailout of 2008/2009 was passed through the legislature, whereas the current form of debt relief was an executive order.  Isn’t that one of the most important differences? 
 

Here was a Brookings analysis of the debt relief  https://www.brookings.edu/articles/putting-student-loan-forgiveness-in-perspective-how-costly-is-it-and-who-benefits/

 

Here were some key parts that struck me: 

Even $10,000 in debt forgiveness would involve a transfer that is about as large as the country has spent on welfare (TANF) since 2000 and exceeds the amount spent since then on feeding hungry school children in high-poverty schools through the school breakfast and lunch program. Likewise, it dwarfs spending on programs that help feed low-income pregnant women and infants or provide energy assistance to those who otherwise struggle to heat their homes in winter.

Beyond the sums that debt forgiveness would represent, the beneficiaries of student loan forgiveness would be higher income, better educated, and whiter than beneficiaries of other transfer programs. The following table describes the economic and demographic characteristics of beneficiaries of selected income support programs as well as would-be beneficiaries of student debt forgiveness.

 

They recommended doubling the Pell Grant and reworking the Income based repayment plans (which the administration is now doing as mentioned above, through the SAVE program).   

[YaelAldrich]

On 7/1/2023 at 12:11 PM, Shelydon said:

My college students have found that their two English courses have been extremely poor quality. Last year, my second child had an English class that was supposed to be rhetoric and composition. She watched three movies and wrote one expository paper. That's it. There was no actual instruction on different styles of writing. We have consistently found that the classes my kids take it home or through our local homeschool group are far superior to anything they get in with the college basics. It's really appalling to pay $1,000 for a class when it's trash. 

With this in mind my next kids will do CLEP in addition to dual credit.  

As the wife of a college professor, and parent to two biological college students (and several more bonus kids we have monetarily subsidized)., I must strongly suggest all college (community, 2-year, junior, and four year institutions) look at Rate My Professor  or another site like that.  Because I can almost promise you that the poor professors your children had are publically known for being poor pedagogues on those kinds of sites.  And likewise, you can find the good professors too!  My son did not do his pre-picking class research one semester and got a terrible teacher.  Guess what?  She was rated horribly by students.  

[Happy2BaMom]

20 hours ago, Bootsie said:

This quote misrepresents the study which stated:

"Byimplication,theremaining$335to$395billion(66 to77percent)accruedtoownersofbusinessandcorporatestakeholders,includingcreditorsand suppliers,etc."-P 18

The study said that about two-thirds to three-quarters went to owners and STAKEHOLDERS (not shareholders).  These stakeholders included situations like a restaurant continuing to pay its lease, a furniture manufacturer paying its suppliers for wood, and a day care paying its electric bill.  Those companies receiving the rent, the payment for wood, the payment for electricity etc. were more likely to remain open and be able to pay their employees.  (The study counted these payments as payments received by STAKEHOLDERS, and did not further determine how many workers kept their jobs because the stakeholders received their pay). 

I am not a fan of PPP and personally think there are many problematic things about it; but it isn't correct to conclude from this study that the majority of the money just ended up as profit for business owners.

I'm not sure how playing around with the definition changes the fact that the vast majority of PPP "loans" (nearly all of which have been forgiven) were given to those in the top 20% of income.

Page 20:

"Panel A of Figure 6 reports the distribution of PPP, UI, and household payments in billions
of dollars across household quintiles. The distribution of Paycheck Protection Program loans over-
whelmingly accrued to high-income households. Of the $510 billion in PPP loans provided in 2020,
we estimate that only $13.2 billion ultimately flowed to households in the bottom fifth of the income
distribution, and that $130.8 billion to the second through fourth quintiles. The remaining $365.9
billion (72 percent) flowed to the top-fifth of household income."

 

[Happy2BaMom]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

Personally I think the government should stay out of a lot of things they meddle in, but that doesn't mean that it's shitting on us when it doesn't give us handouts / bailouts.  And it really doesn't have anything to do with student loan forgiveness at all.  It's just a distraction in this particular discussion.

Labeling it a distraction makes it convenient to ignore all the ways this society supports government loan forgiveness for one group of people, and loses it's mind over loan forgiveness for another group.

 

ETA: And, for the record, since this whole "distraction" seems to result in several people wanting to put words in my mouth, I'm not - at least in theory - against the PPP program. Small business owners definitely needed the help at the time. Even large businesses were unsure how much they were going to be hurt.

But it *has* turned into a massive giveaway. With practically no one even blinking an eye about "government loan forgiveness" for this program, for this group of people, for this amount of money (nearly double the total amount of student loan forgiveness).

Edited July 2, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[Happy2BaMom]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

As a business owner that was hit pretty hard by Covid shutdowns, the idea that our staying open didn't benefit our employees is ridiculous.

Our hotel didn't qualify for PPP because we had just opened shortly before the shutdowns.  So we didn't have enough payroll history.  But if we'd qualified, then yes, we would have applied.  Instead, we had to practically live at the hotel and work around the clock on top of our other jobs.  But we're evil business owners, clearly.  Even when business started picking back up, it was incredibly hard to attract and keep employees, as the government was paying them relatively high unemployment benefits to not work.  It's not like the little guy wasn't getting any of the Covid relief.

But we all know that business is evil, capitalism is evil, having this forum on these computer screens is evil because profit motive is the devil.

Where has anyone in this thread said that you were an evil business owner, that capitalism is evil, or the profit motive is the devil?

[KSera]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

As the wife of a college professor, and parent to two biological college students (and several more bonus kids we have monetarily subsidized)., I must strongly suggest all college (community, 2-year, junior, and four year institutions) look at Rate My Professor  or another site like that.  Because I can almost promise you that the poor professors your children had are publically known for being poor pedagogues on those kinds of sites.  And likewise, you can find the good professors too!  My son did not do his pre-picking class research one semester and got a terrible teacher.  Guess what?  She was rated horribly by students.  

I agree with making heavy use of Rate my Professor, but I’ve also found that some really poor professors sometimes have really high ratings just for being easy As. That’s all a lot of students are looking for, and they will rate an English teacher highly if they hardly had to read or write anything to get an A. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

As the wife of a college professor, and parent to two biological college students (and several more bonus kids we have monetarily subsidized)., I must strongly suggest all college (community, 2-year, junior, and four year institutions) look at Rate My Professor  or another site like that.  Because I can almost promise you that the poor professors your children had are publically known for being poor pedagogues on those kinds of sites.  And likewise, you can find the good professors too!  My son did not do his pre-picking class research one semester and got a terrible teacher.  Guess what?  She was rated horribly by students.  

Unfortunately when classes are offered plays a much bigger role in which classes get chosen for my kiddo.   That’s one down side to kids needing to work full time during college in an effort to keep loans down.   

Edited July 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Ting Tang]

12 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Labeling it a distraction makes it convenient to ignore all the ways this society supports government loan forgiveness for one group of people, and loses it's mind over loan forgiveness for another group.

I think some see a college education as a luxury (still) rather than as a necessity, whereas they figure a business is someone's means of survival.  There are many people who do not go to college and they do not want to pay for someone else's "luxury" education since it is not a requirement in this life.  They believe students knew what they were getting into when they took out those loans.  This is just me getting inside their heads. I do feel we need to find a way to make it more affordable.  I don't think some of the counseling that happens to students is really helpful; I went to one session.  Nobody ever told me the true reality of being in student loan debt hell.  I needed to talk to real people.  

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

I agree with making heavy use of Rate my Professor, but I’ve also found that some really poor professors sometimes have really high ratings just for being easy As. That’s all a lot of students are looking for, and they will rate an English teacher highly if they hardly had to read or write anything to get an A. 

Unfortunately standards are going to have to adjust to the reality that tuition and cost of living necessitates these kids working full or nearly full time.  Colleges and professors can’t pretend that school is the kids main job when a year of tuition equals a year or more of salary for an average family.   

[Ting Tang]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Unfortunately standards are going to have to adjust to the reality that tuition and cost of living necessitates these kids working full or nearly full time.  Colleges and professors can’t pretend that school is the kids main job when a year of tuition equals a year or more of salary for an average family.   

Yes.  I worked part-time and had a scholarship, and it still wasn't enough.  I cannot even imagine financing living expenses.  We live in an area with a community college, but the closest four year school is about an hour away.  I cringe to think about a commute like that for a younger person, but it might need to happen. There are online degree programs, too.  

Edited July 2, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes.  I worked part-time and had a scholarship, and it still wasn't enough.  I cannot even imagine financing living expenses.  We live in an area with a community college, but the closest four year school is about an hour away.  I cringe to think about a commute like that for a younger person, but it might need to happen. There are online degree programs, too.  

We looked at my kids starting at our local community college.  We met with the transfer specialist and were pretty much encouraged to just start at the local 4 year because transferring is tricky and a lot of classes wouldn’t count.  That was …discouraging.  

[catz]

14 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

We looked at my kids starting at our local community college.  We met with the transfer specialist and were pretty much encouraged to just start at the local 4 year because transferring is tricky and a lot of classes wouldn’t count.  That was …discouraging.  

This is so weird to me.  Our CCs have well ironed transfer paths to compete a degree in 4 years.  Including in STEM areas.  You do have to do your homework and have a major picked on the front end to do this well, but you end up with the same flagship degree.  And students are typically very well prepared for the transfer.  

My kid graduate from a top 15 public UNiversity and still says some of his favorite profs/classes were the dual enrolled ones he took at a CC.  He had teachers also teaching adjunct at $$$ schools.  

Our state just passed free 4 year options for families earning under 80K.  We already have free dual enrollment for prepped kids on academic or trade pathways.  And urban district low income families also already get free CC post graduation.  They do have to participate in a skills path to participtae - study skills, regular meetups with advisors, etc. 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, catz said:

This is so weird to me.  Our CCs have well ironed transfer paths to compete a degree in 4 years.  Including in STEM areas.  You do have to do your homework and have a major picked on the front end to do this well, but you end up with the same flagship degree.  And students are typically very well prepared for the transfer.  

My kid graduate from a top 15 public UNiversity and still says some of his favorite profs/classes were the dual enrolled ones he took at a CC.  He had teachers also teaching adjunct at $$$ schools.  

Our state just passed free 4 year options for families earning under 80K.  We already have free dual enrollment for prepped kids on academic or trade pathways.  And urban district low income families also already get free CC post graduation.  They do have to participate in a skills path to participtae - study skills, regular meetups with advisors, etc. 

It may have been his major.  🤷‍♀️  I thought it was weird.  Maybe she was just bad at her job.  

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

It may have been his major.  🤷‍♀️  I thought it was weird.  Maybe she was just bad at her job.  

It varies a lot from state to state and major to major how smoothly transferring goes.  Community college first is the cheapest option in some states but in some places it's far from a good deal.

[marbel]

1 minute ago, catz said:

This is so weird to me.  Our CCs have well ironed transfer paths to compete a degree in 4 years. 

Same. Ours also had - I forget the exact wording - something like partner universities; if the CC student graduated with their AA, had a GPA of something decent (I think it wasn't very high), they would be admitted automatically to the transfer school they applied to. Some were public Us, some private. Both my kids took advantage of that, though my daughter had already been admitted to her LAC based on portfolio review anyway. It saved us a lot of $$, gave them time to be sure of their majors, and got my LD kid used to dealing with advisors, accommodations, etc.