What would you do? Being asked to (essentially) lie at work.

[DawnM]

DO NOT QUOTE!   I may delete if I feel it is too much info to share.

I know what I am planning to do, but just curious.

There is a legal issue of accommodations for students (IEP/504 type accommodations) which are not all being done.   I was told it is due to space issues.   The problem with that?   That isn't a legal reason to not give a separate setting accommodation to.   The school would be in a huge heap of trouble if the right people find out about it.

Welp, sure enough, two parents, both lawyers, are demanding their child get the accommodations he needs no matter of the "no space" reasoning.   And they SHOULD fight for it.

I may actually not need to say anything if this blows up as they will do it for me, but ARGH!   I hate this crap.   Do what you are meant to be doing and we won't have these issues!   Now it is a whole "thing" and it shouldn't be.

 

[pinball]

Every mom who has battled for accommodations for her special needs child has to be sickened to read this. 

There is always that awful feeling that the school is not on your child’s side and then to read stuff like this and have it confirmed…

You have special needs kids.
 

I don’t think anyone needs to tell you the appropriate thing to do is to advocate for the students

 

 

[Bambam]

I would tell the truth. 

I understand limitation of resources. But I think the school should be honest with the parents. If the parents band together, they are likely to find a solution. 

Best of luck! 

[Dmmetler]

Hopefully, the parents will put the fear of compliance hearings into the school.

 

As far as space, my former school would overflow into a church down the block if needed. The school would need to provide administrators for separate testing,but something like that might provide the room.

[Katy]

Always tell the truth in legal matters. 

[Faith-manor]

This is a legal matter and if you lie could blow your career out of the water. Tell the truth, and if necessary, engine looking for a new job because being a whistleblower tends to leave a person marked. If you can find a position elsewhere before it all comes to a head, it would probably be better for you.

[SKL]

I wouldn't lie.  (I tend to try to figure out a way to truthfully but productively state things ... but in this case, I would do what I could to move the school toward taking the right actions.  Insisting on stating the bald truth may be part of this plan.)

I hope those responsible continue to work to find a solution ASAP.

Makes you wonder how many kids whose parents are not lawyers are being done this way.

[Ali in OR]

This is an easy one. You absolutely have to have a separate space for testing--we have a bazillion IEPs/504s with this accommodation. And honestly it's one of the easier things to provide. We use our Tutoring Center a lot but also SPED case manager classrooms, empty classrooms for some periods (with an EA), etc.

[Terabith]

My youngest took a couple AP tests that required small group testing at a church down the street too. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My youngest took a couple AP tests that required small group testing at a church down the street too. 

There are a couple of well maintained, but empty, business buildings just down the street from our local school campus. The city manager lets the school use them for free whenever they need spill over space. 

[Spryte]

This isn’t really a question, is it? 
 

Tell the truth.

[Drama Llama]

11 minutes ago, Spryte said:

This isn’t really a question, is it? 
 

Tell the truth.

 

I understand where Dawn is coming from.

I've been in the position, as an IEP team member, where I've stated an unpopular opinion, or shared factual information that my supervisor would rather not have shared.  It was the right decision for the individual child whose meeting we were holding. 

But, in the long term, it also damaged my relationship with my team, and contributed to a culture of following the letter of the IEP, rather than putting kids' needs first.  That culture, which is rampant in many public schools, is enormously damaging to kids with disabilities.  It also can contribute to a situation where the kids whose parents can afford lawyers, and can take time off work to force meetings, get their needs met, but at the expense of other students.  

I'm not saying that I should have lied or withheld my situation, but hoping that things will resolve another way, as Dawn seems to be doing by letting the parents advocate first, makes sense to me.  

[HomeAgain]

While it's not a question, goodness, the developments of this will be interesting.  It's not an enviable position to be in. 

[DawnM]

I guess I didn't really mean "Would you tell or not."  I meant, "How would you handle this?"  meaning who to talk to first, how to talk to the parents, etc.....

I am not planning to lie, although i may wait until this settled a little before jumping in with guns blazing.

I called my direct supervisor and she said she will pass on dealing with it and asked me to call the head supervisor downtown.   Yup, I figured, this is going to be a big mess.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

My youngest took a couple AP tests that required small group testing at a church down the street too. 

 

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

There are a couple of well maintained, but empty, business buildings just down the street from our local school campus. The city manager lets the school use them for free whenever they need spill over space. 

This is actually at a church down the street where they say they don't have space for separate setting.   But legally that isn't the right answer.   This has been years of this going on.  I am just floored, I had no idea.

[prairiewindmomma]

I’ve been on the parent side of the table, and went to war over the same thing and a few other things.

“I was told it was due to space issues” will be followed up with “Who told you that?”. I was told the same and followed it up the food chain. Odds are they will realize you aren’t the decision maker and the heat won’t be on you for long.

I would have filed for the required administrative hearing if I had needed to. Choose your words carefully with re: to honestly, as you might hear them again.

[DawnM]

Oh, and by the way, I JUST found this out within the past few days, I haven't gone this whole school year knowing this information.   I was just told IB makes their own rules and the rules are.......

But that was not accurate info at all.   I just accepted it as truth as I have never worked in an IB school before   UGH.

[Faith-manor]

48 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

This is actually at a church down the street where they say they don't have space for separate setting.   But legally that isn't the right answer.   This has been years of this going on.  I am just floored, I had no idea.

I am so sorry! This sucks.

[SKL]

So I guess I would start out by listening and acting like you are new to the problem and you are all about resolving it.  No need to blame anyone.  No doubt you have been working diligently on other things and now it's time to work on this thing.

[DawnM]

31 minutes ago, SKL said:

So I guess I would start out by listening and acting like you are new to the problem and you are all about resolving it.  No need to blame anyone.  No doubt you have been working diligently on other things and now it's time to work on this thing.

It has already gotten to the point where it needs to go to someone higher up and they will need to deal with it.   I have already spoken to the person I needed to speak to and that is how I found out all of this.   She wasn't interested in changing anything and insisted that it simply cannot be done.   (but it has to be done, and I am not in authority over her, so I can't fix it if she isn't willing to budge after I have talked to her.)

ALthough like I said, maybe those parents can push and change it, but I am not holding my breath.

[ikslo]

Are these verbal conversations with coworkers? If so, I would follow it up with an email documenting the conversation where you state the requirement vs what this person told you. Once people realize that there is a paper trail MOST people attempt a course change. Not all, of course, and in those cases this would be a CYA for you.

[lmrich]

I was once asked to lie to parents at a school where I  taught. I quit my job. (I was fortunate enough to be able to do so)

[Katy]

That sounds like a class action lawsuit coming the district’s way. 

[Anne]

My only advice is to be sure that you have extensive, detailed notes regarding your interaction in this situation thus far.  

CYA!!

Anne

[Lecka]

I read like two responses and I’m skipping to the bottom…..

 

If you are asked point blank, no I wouldn’t lie.

 

If you are saying “should I volunteer this information out of nowhere, only because I know what the law days?”  
 

I do not believe that is required.

 

The law is one standard, but I truly believe it is such a “one size fits all” thing, and isn’t responsive to individual circumstances or what priorities should be within a school or school district.

 

This is my honest belief.

 

I have known things were wrong and not cared because I thought it was not a real issue, it was a legal compliance issue.

 

I don’t think I’m a bad person to think this.

 

I think my duty is the same as that of a teacher or school employee who is not “in charge.”  
 

Edit:  by the same token, though, I totally support parents who do make another choice and shake up how things are done!!!!!!!!  I do not think it is an obligation, though.  
 

I think if you are seeing this is something that is not just a legal requirement, but a true harm, then I think that is a different situation.  
 

I have gotten into something pretty big before and I kind-of regret how I handled it, but I don’t think I was wrong.  I would try to handle it differently now.  
 

But that experience does leave me feeling like — these are real people with real lives and real jobs, and there are things that are legal requirements that I don’t think actually matter.  I don’t feel an obligation to make things fit the letter of the law.  
 

On the other hand if I see my child being harmed (he wasn’t actively harmed, but some things weren’t being done properly for him to have an appropriate program) then that is a different situation.  Or, if I do see a pattern I believe is effecting children including my child, even if it’s not a big deal for my child.  
 

But there are legal requirements that do not rise to that level in the actual situations involved, but I could see them rising to that level in general and can see why they are legal requirements.  
 

But honestly I think this is very personal and individual.

 

But I think what I would consider an ethical obligation does not line up with legal requirements.  I think there are ethical obligations but that is determined in a different way. 
 

That is my answer for myself.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by Lecka

[DawnM]

Ok, so, I did have a talk with my supervisor today and told him what was going on.   I am not sure what he will do but it is no longer my issue, I have done my part.

Thanks everyone.

[pinball]

13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Ok, so, I did have a talk with my supervisor today and told him what was going on.   I am not sure what he will do but it is no longer my issue, I have done my part.

Thanks everyone.

Proud of you!

[Lecka]

That sounds totally appropriate!!!!!!  Good for you!!!!!!!!!

[DawnM]

5 hours ago, pinball said:

Proud of you!

 

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

That sounds totally appropriate!!!!!!  Good for you!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, but I really did intend for people to find out, I wouldn't have kept this to myself, although yeah, I did hope a parent complaint would bring it to light and not me, but whatever.

[kbutton]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:44 AM, DawnM said:

There is a legal issue of accommodations for students (IEP/504 type accommodations) which are not all being done.   I was told it is due to space issues.   The problem with that?   That isn't a legal reason to not give a separate setting accommodation to.   The school would be in a huge heap of trouble if the right people find out about it.

It sounds like you've been able to do your part an move on, but there are a couple of things that strike me about the situation.

My son was offered a quiet room by the school district for the ACT. Since he mostly did stuff at home, not at a school, and he didn't take many tests at home, he didn't know how big of a deal this would be. It was astoundingly helpful for him--far more than extra time was. The building is old and less than ideal--it's being updated and replaced as I type this, so it's not the school has a lot of resources to offer this; they clearly make it a priority. It's not a well-resourced district or one that is full of attorney parents either. 

I have family members (close and less close) that have real physical disabilities as well that get glossed over, that sideline them, or that get them poor treatment by co-workers. Part of the culture of accommodating disabilities is to make it OKAY and NORMAL to have accommodation and cut down on school or workplace bullying/pressure. This might be worth mentioning to the powers that be, especially if you can ask if they'd leave a student in a wheelchair without a fire evacuation plan in an old building. Because this is similar. Also, the tone is set by the administration and trickles down to students.

Also, ANY time an employer is at risk, it's an open door for an employee to say, "You realize we're exposing ourselves here, and it's only a matter of time, right?" In a non-toxic environment, that should be welcome. It should be seen as proactive.

I hope your supervisor takes this seriously. As for your place...sigh, it's hard. I can totally see what B and H is saying about unintended consequences.