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DawnM
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17 hours ago, Danae said:

I mean, he’s right.  You can’t reassure him that that’s not going to happen, because that’s exactly what’s going to happen.  You can quibble over “left” and reassure him that he’s not being dumped or abandoned, but he’s never coming home to his previous home.  

True.   

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We have two options for full nursing care.   

1. facility he is doing rehab in has a nursing home as well.   They have a semi-private room available.   I am waiting to hear details like cost, TV situation, room for recliner, etc......

2. private room and bathroom

I don't know the cost difference but I think it will be around $1k different per month.   Since I don't think we will be paying for this longer than 12 months, I am not too concerned about the cost.

As of right now, there are not any other options I am pursuing as I am not wiling to put him more than 10 miles away.   

My two top choices are full and don't anticipate openings.

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26 minutes ago, DawnM said:

We have two options for full nursing care.   

1. facility he is doing rehab in has a nursing home as well.   They have a semi-private room available.   I am waiting to hear details like cost, TV situation, room for recliner, etc......

2. private room and bathroom

I don't know the cost difference but I think it will be around $1k different per month.   Since I don't think we will be paying for this longer than 12 months, I am not too concerned about the cost.

As of right now, there are not any other options I am pursuing as I am not wiling to put him more than 10 miles away.   

My two top choices are full and don't anticipate openings.

I am so sorry about all of this Dawn. Sounds like you do have him in a good place and I am happy he won’t have to move to yet another facility.  That really messes them up when they have dementia. 

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27 minutes ago, DawnM said:

We have two options for full nursing care.   

1. facility he is doing rehab in has a nursing home as well.   They have a semi-private room available.   I am waiting to hear details like cost, TV situation, room for recliner, etc......

2. private room and bathroom

I don't know the cost difference but I think it will be around $1k different per month.   Since I don't think we will be paying for this longer than 12 months, I am not too concerned about the cost.

As of right now, there are not any other options I am pursuing as I am not wiling to put him more than 10 miles away.   

My two top choices are full and don't anticipate openings.

It is probably worth it for the private room. I'm glad he won't have to move facilities. 

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27 minutes ago, DawnM said:

We have two options for full nursing care.   

1. facility he is doing rehab in has a nursing home as well.   They have a semi-private room available.   I am waiting to hear details like cost, TV situation, room for recliner, etc......

2. private room and bathroom

I don't know the cost difference but I think it will be around $1k different per month.   Since I don't think we will be paying for this longer than 12 months, I am not too concerned about the cost.

As of right now, there are not any other options I am pursuing as I am not wiling to put him more than 10 miles away.   

My two top choices are full and don't anticipate openings.

For my mum, a private bathroom has been important,  but she's able to get there on her own.

My  mum has a carehome annuity  - she bought an annuity on good terms when she entered the care home. Break even is 4 years. We never have to worry about her running out of money and having to move. She's been there 4 1/2 years.

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33 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

For my mum, a private bathroom has been important,  but she's able to get there on her own.

My  mum has a carehome annuity  - she bought an annuity on good terms when she entered the care home. Break even is 4 years. We never have to worry about her running out of money and having to move. She's been there 4 1/2 years.

I am quite certain we don't have 4 more years.

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19 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I think the private room would be worth every penny.

Roommate drama is real. 

That is where I am leaning.   He doesn't like 99% of what is on TV and if there is only one TV that will be an issue.   He also tends to be a private person.   

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Just now, DawnM said:

That is where I am leaning.   He doesn't like 99% of what is on TV and if there is only one TV that will be an issue.   He also tends to be a private person.   

Privacy matters! And even if there were two TVs, both roommates would have to wear headsets or something to avoid disturbing each other, and I doubt that would happen. Also, a lot of people like to listen to music, and it can be sheer torture being stuck listening to someone else’s music for hours on end.

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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

Privacy matters! And even if there were two TVs, both roommates would have to wear headsets or something to avoid disturbing each other, and I doubt that would happen. Also, a lot of people like to listen to music, and it can be sheer torture being stuck listening to someone else’s music for hours on end.

Well, good news!  My dad can't hear!  😂

 

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40 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Another vote for the private room. I agree with @Spryte about roommate drama, and a private room will also make visitation more comfortable and convenient.

I was thinking about visitation as well - especially if the roommate has frequent visitors.  That can be an issue.  Private is so much nicer if you can afford it.

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Joining the chorus, private room if possible.

It is sad but old age comes with many small humiliations. Sorry to be sexist but these seem to be harder for a man to bear. Needing assistance bathing, dressing, toileting, is not something one appreciates having an audience for. It’s also easier when you go to visit, and easier to personalize with items from home. 

Proximity is huge, you are wise to consider the nearest available near you. 

Praying for this transition process. Please take care of yourself - you are doing a great job on this! - but it will wear you out. Carve out some down time for yourself as best you can. 

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I would argue that proximity is more important than top quality of facility if you can visit often, especially if you can vary the time of your visit so they don’t know when to expect you. IME every facility prioritizes having residents ready for family visits, even over residents personal preferences. 

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This is stage 7 of Dementia (the last stage).   My responses are in in italics

  • Lose the ability to speak, eat or swallow.
    • He can somewhat do the above things, but they are becoming increasingly difficult
  • Not be able to use the toilet or get dressed without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Not be able to walk or sit without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of language skills throughout this stage
    • he is losing his ability to hold a conversation or find his words often
  • Lose all bladder and bowel control.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of muscle control
    • yes, already there
  • Stop walking and may be confined to a wheelchair or bed at this time
    • yes, already there
  • Often cannot recognize family members
    • He does recognize us
  • Almost always disoriented
    • Often
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23 minutes ago, DawnM said:

This is stage 7 of Dementia (the last stage).   My responses are in in italics

  • Lose the ability to speak, eat or swallow.
    • He can somewhat do the above things, but they are becoming increasingly difficult
  • Not be able to use the toilet or get dressed without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Not be able to walk or sit without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of language skills throughout this stage
    • he is losing his ability to hold a conversation or find his words often
  • Lose all bladder and bowel control.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of muscle control
    • yes, already there
  • Stop walking and may be confined to a wheelchair or bed at this time
    • yes, already there
  • Often cannot recognize family members
    • He does recognize us
  • Almost always disoriented
    • Often

He might still have 5 years left. Especially because we’re not sure how much of the recent changes are because he had a severe infection that can also cause these symptoms and disorientation due to being moved. Then again he could have a post Covid blood clot tomorrow. 

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Regarding how long there is left:

Based on your list, if it is something like Alzheimer's, then he really seriously could have 5-8 years more. That was my experience with my grandmother, great-grandmother, and my mother-in-law. Each of these three women took 15+ years from when we think it really started until the end. 

My aunt's dementia was from a brain tumor and surgery. (Surgery to remove the tumor left her brain damaged, but she still had the tumor before and after and it continued to affect her brain). Her journey from diagnosis until she passed was almost 8 years.

IF your dad actually has Lewy body dementia (which is entirely possible given what you describe with the loss of physical coordination and the fast pace), then that form of dementia averages 3-7 years. For my father-in-law, his journey from start (a surgery that sparked the downward decline) to finish (his death in December 2021) was roughly 3 1/2 years. 

For the women in my life whose disease progressed more slowly, we found that there were many long plateaus in which nothing would change for a while. There were several points with each of them in which we thought, This cannot possibly continue much longer. But it did continue for years. I don't want to depress you--just be aware that this is a real possibility.

For my father-in-law (Lewy body dementia), the pace was quick all along, and it felt as though the pace accelerated the further into the journey we went. Every single week of the year he lived with us, we could track the loss of a skill. It felt really, really fast with a steep downward incline. Very intense.

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2 hours ago, DawnM said:

This is stage 7 of Dementia (the last stage).   My responses are in in italics

  • Lose the ability to speak, eat or swallow.
    • He can somewhat do the above things, but they are becoming increasingly difficult
  • Not be able to use the toilet or get dressed without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Not be able to walk or sit without help.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of language skills throughout this stage
    • he is losing his ability to hold a conversation or find his words often
  • Lose all bladder and bowel control.
    • yes, already there
  • Loss of muscle control
    • yes, already there
  • Stop walking and may be confined to a wheelchair or bed at this time
    • yes, already there
  • Often cannot recognize family members
    • He does recognize us
  • Almost always disoriented
    • Often

As others have said, some of these can be caused by infection and/or hospital delirium and may somewhat resolve. Iirc  things were on the decline but took a sharp dip which covid. Did the doctors rule out a stroke? 
 

Lists like these can be discouraging, but also validating and helpful. It helps with care decisions, and it helps us, as our parents decline, to know whether we are making accurate observations about their status and abilities, because our judgment can be swayed by emotion. 

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I hate to say this, but I hope he does NOT last another 5 years.   He is miserable like this and I can't stand watching.

When the social worker called (forgive me if I have already said this), she said they think he may have Parkinson's and they said to expect him to be bed/wheelchair bound as they are not seeing the progress they should be seeing after 3 weeks' time from the onset of Covid.   They think it was coming, but Covid tipped it over the edge.  I can't say they are wrong because he was becoming increasingly dangerous to himself with falling and weakness and confusion.

But he also has heart issues on top of all of that.

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3 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I hate to say this, but I hope he does NOT last another 5 years.   He is miserable like this and I can't stand watching.

When the social worker called (forgive me if I have already said this), she said they think he may have Parkinson's and they said to expect him to be bed/wheelchair bound as they are not seeing the progress they should be seeing after 3 weeks' time from the onset of Covid.   They think it was coming, but Covid tipped it over the edge.  I can't say they are wrong because he was becoming increasingly dangerous to himself with falling and weakness and confusion.

But he also has heart issues on top of all of that.

My phone makes it hard to quote but you can look into hospice for end of life care.   Often the heroic medical interventions do not save a life but rather prolong death…..and make for an even harder time.

I am all for major care and comfort measures but not heroics 

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Just now, Ottakee said:

My phone makes it hard to quote but you can look into hospice for end of life care.   Often the heroic medical interventions do not save a life but rather prolong death…..and make for an even harder time.

I am all for major care and comfort measures but not heroics 

Yes, we will get hospice when he enters the nursing home.   And he has a DNR/DNI.

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17 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I hate to say this, but I hope he does NOT last another 5 years.   He is miserable like this and I can't stand watching.

When the social worker called (forgive me if I have already said this), she said they think he may have Parkinson's and they said to expect him to be bed/wheelchair bound as they are not seeing the progress they should be seeing after 3 weeks' time from the onset of Covid.   They think it was coming, but Covid tipped it over the edge.  I can't say they are wrong because he was becoming increasingly dangerous to himself with falling and weakness and confusion.

But he also has heart issues on top of all of that.

I agree with you. I understand. I don’t think he will either. 

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16 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I hate to say this, but I hope he does NOT last another 5 years.   He is miserable like this and I can't stand watching.

Yes, we felt exactly the same watching our loved ones walk this road. It was agonizing. You love your father, so of course you do not want to see him suffer. My heart is with you. 

16 minutes ago, DawnM said:

When the social worker called (forgive me if I have already said this), she said they think he may have Parkinson's and they said to expect him to be bed/wheelchair bound as they are not seeing the progress they should be seeing after 3 weeks' time from the onset of Covid.   They think it was coming, but Covid tipped it over the edge.  I can't say they are wrong because he was becoming increasingly dangerous to himself with falling and weakness and confusion.

But he also has heart issues on top of all of that.

I have anecdotally heard that often Lewy Body is misdiagnosed as Parkinson's. I don't think it actually matters what the diagnosis is in the long run, though. The bottom line is that he needs care.

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Are you familiar with your dad's dnr?  Where I am there are levels. 

I was my sister's person/poa.  The level of her dnr did not cover every single intervention.  It was up to me to make decisions near the end.  I scoured the POA for her wishes and I have no choice but to feel okay with my decision.  The hospital staff could not tell me what to do but many sought me out afterwards to say that I did the right thing.

Just mentioning it because I wish I had known that I'd be the one making ultimate decisions.

(hugs)

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2 minutes ago, happi duck said:

Are you familiar with your dad's dnr?  Where I am there are levels. 

I was my sister's person/poa.  The level of her dnr did not cover every single intervention.  It was up to me to make decisions near the end.  I scoured the POA for her wishes and I have no choice but to feel okay with my decision.  The hospital staff could not tell me what to do but many sought me out afterwards to say that I did the right thing.

Just mentioning it because I wish I had known that I'd be the one making ultimate decisions.

(hugs)

What dad said was that he would do anything that was not invasive.   So, oxygen would be ok, but a feeding tube would not.   He doesn't want paddles to restart his heart.    But I will look at it.

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42 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

I have anecdotally heard that often Lewy Body is misdiagnosed as Parkinson's. I don't think it actually matters what the diagnosis is in the long run, though. The bottom line is that he needs care.

my dh's father was misdiagnosed as Parkinson's at first because he started with the slow movement/tremors before the dementia started. He was struggling with the tremors in 2000 and didn't die until 2012, so he outlived most estimates for Lewy Body Dementia. He had the hallucinations, which I guess is one trademark of this disease.

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1 hour ago, happi duck said:

Are you familiar with your dad's dnr?  Where I am there are levels. 

I was my sister's person/poa.  The level of her dnr did not cover every single intervention.  It was up to me to make decisions near the end.  I scoured the POA for her wishes and I have no choice but to feel okay with my decision.  The hospital staff could not tell me what to do but many sought me out afterwards to say that I did the right thing.

Just mentioning it because I wish I had known that I'd be the one making ultimate decisions.

(hugs)

IME hospice will require an additional one. The fact that Dawn’s dad gave her POA and executed his own DNR gives her the right to sign a new one acting as his agent. 
 

Dawn what you might want to make sure if is if there are any legal instructions about how to sign documents on his behalf. I was required to sign like this:

Hand Print Elder Name by <my own signature>, agent

May vary by state/document, just be sure you know what you should do (if you haven’t already thought about it).

Also, a suggestion - be ready when the SNF includes paperwork for you to sign saying that you will take issues to arbitration and waive your right to litigation. You do not have to agree to that. 

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2 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

IME hospice will require an additional one. The fact that Dawn’s dad gave her POA and executed his own DNR gives her the right to sign a new one acting as his agent. 
 

Dawn what you might want to make sure if is if there are any legal instructions about how to sign documents on his behalf. I was required to sign like this:

Hand Print Elder Name by <my own signature>, agent

May vary by state/document, just be sure you know what you should do (if you haven’t already thought about it).

Also, a suggestion - be ready when the SNF includes paperwork for you to sign saying that you will take issues to arbitration and waive your right to litigation. You do not have to agree to that. 

Thanks.   I actually had to do all of this when he entered rehab.

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17 hours ago, DawnM said:

I hate to say this, but I hope he does NOT last another 5 years.   He is miserable like this and I can't stand watching.

When the social worker called (forgive me if I have already said this), she said they think he may have Parkinson's and they said to expect him to be bed/wheelchair bound as they are not seeing the progress they should be seeing after 3 weeks' time from the onset of Covid.   They think it was coming, but Covid tipped it over the edge.  I can't say they are wrong because he was becoming increasingly dangerous to himself with falling and weakness and confusion.

But he also has heart issues on top of all of that.

I’m going to put our experience with covid and dementia here in case it is helpful. Mil who got her dementia diagnosis in 2019 was going along just fine until they got Covid. Then she took a very sharp turn. She suddenly couldn’t walk properly, she had trouble swallowing, she lost control of bathroom functions and went to diapers, she barely spoke and would do this weird thing where she would raise her arms or legs and just hold them up on the air. It was shocking and awful. Her doctors were shocked at the huge downturn she took. Arguement s over her care/nursing home etc happened and her doctors just had no explanation except that it had to be covid related.

Fast forward 7 months, she has regained her ability to feed, toilet and bathe herself. She is walking much more steadily and sort of makes conversation. It is shocking how far she declined with covid and how far she has come back, most of her gains coming in the last month or so. I can’t remember if your dads decline with toileting and walking had already started before he got covid, but I just wanted to share our journey with covid recovery. We went from arguing about putting her in a nursing home to her now not needing a nursing home at all.

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9 minutes ago, saraha said:

I’m going to put our experience with covid and dementia here in case it is helpful. Mil who got her dementia diagnosis in 2019 was going along just fine until they got Covid. Then she took a very sharp turn. She suddenly couldn’t walk properly, she had trouble swallowing, she lost control of bathroom functions and went to diapers, she barely spoke and would do this weird thing where she would raise her arms or legs and just hold them up on the air. It was shocking and awful. Her doctors were shocked at the huge downturn she took. Arguement s over her care/nursing home etc happened and her doctors just had no explanation except that it had to be covid related.

Fast forward 7 months, she has regained her ability to feed, toilet and bathe herself. She is walking much more steadily and sort of makes conversation. It is shocking how far she declined with covid and how far she has come back, most of her gains coming in the last month or so. I can’t remember if your dads decline with toileting and walking had already started before he got covid, but I just wanted to share our journey with covid recovery. We went from arguing about putting her in a nursing home to her now not needing a nursing home at all.

I'm not Dawn, but his decline was in process before Covid.  He would have better days and not so good days, but was heading to some type of care sooner than later.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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6 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I'm not Dawn, but his decline was in process before Covid.  He would have better days and not so good days, but was heading to some type of care sooner than later.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

That is my memory too.  

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On 7/16/2022 at 2:45 PM, DawnM said:

I am quite certain we don't have 4 more years.

Fwiw my mum, who has been in a care home for four years, took a temporary turn for the worse after we had to move her to a different nursing home this year.  She was delirious and a danger to herself  - heading for the stairs without any understanding of where she was.  

Once she had settled in, she went back to how she was before the move. So these things are not linear necessarily. 

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I'm sorry you are dealing with all of this, Dawn.

I hope that if he remains in this state of dementia, that he will not linger. I know you don't want a prolonged situation, and neither would he.

With that said, my mom had Alzheimer's for 15 years, and, with all respect, your description of him does not match level 7 dementia yet. My mom was in the last state of dementia for years, and she was much, much worse than what your description of your dad is now. She was completely 100% nonverbal, with no recognition of people (not just that she didn't recognize them, but that she did not respond to people interacting with her), and had to be spoon fed for years.  She was incontinent for the last ten years. Her mind was gone, and only her body was left. Your dad is not really at that final stage quite yet.

Some people really do progress through dementia more quickly, but others linger in some pretty non-functioning stages.

I don't want to contradict your assessment of your dad, in any way, but it's possible that he is not quite as far along the dementia path yet.

Also, I agree with others who say that people can sometimes improve after illness- and hospital-related dementia. We saw this with MIL. She was absolutely not herself at all during her last hospitalization in an alarming way, but she did improve and became herself again, both personality and health-wise (though she never regained all of her full faculties) and lived another two years. During that time, she again declined, but she did bounce back some from her alarming illness.

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3 hours ago, mlktwins said:

I'm not Dawn, but his decline was in process before Covid.  He would have better days and not so good days, but was heading to some type of care sooner than later.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, this is accurate.   We were talking about a home long before the Covid.   He is so hunched over he can't look up and he shuffles in `1" shuffles even when he is "fully functioning."   He was not doing well long before Covid.

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

That is my memory too.  

Yes, you are correct.

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Also we have to remember their ages….I believe @DawnM’s dad is mid 80s.

Yup

3 hours ago, mlktwins said:

I believe he is around my dad's age, which is 87.  

He is also 87

38 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I'm sorry you are dealing with all of this, Dawn.

I hope that if he remains in this state of dementia, that he will not linger. I know you don't want a prolonged situation, and neither would he.

With that said, my mom had Alzheimer's for 15 years, and, with all respect, your description of him does not match level 7 dementia yet. My mom was in the last state of dementia for years, and she was much, much worse than what your description of your dad is now. She was completely 100% nonverbal, with no recognition of people (not just that she didn't recognize them, but that she did not respond to people interacting with her), and had to be spoon fed for years.  She was incontinent for the last ten years. Her mind was gone, and only her body was left. Your dad is not really at that final stage quite yet.

Some people really do progress through dementia more quickly, but others linger in some pretty non-functioning stages.

I don't want to contradict your assessment of your dad, in any way, but it's possible that he is not quite as far along the dementia path yet.

Also, I agree with others who say that people can sometimes improve after illness- and hospital-related dementia. We saw this with MIL. She was absolutely not herself at all during her last hospitalization in an alarming way, but she did improve and became herself again, both personality and health-wise (though she never regained all of her full faculties) and lived another two years. During that time, she again declined, but she did bounce back some from her alarming illness.

I think with all of his other health issues, including heart disease, we are not looking at 15 years or anywhere close to that.

He may not be at a 7 with dementia, but he was having trouble standing and walking before Covid and now he can't do either of those things.   They think he probably has Parkinson's and we know he has heart disease.

Mind and body are going.   The dementia started several years ago, but he seems to come and go with lucidity.   

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Random comment directed at some of the decline/recovery stories upthread.  My mom's memory care neurologist mentioned this because my mom has declined pretty significantly post surgery. I am sure there are more technical ways to put it, but this is how she explained it. The body has a limited number of resources to invest and when the body is healing from something (like a surgery) the body invests more resources toward that healing. In the case of someone who already is struggling with limited cognitive resources, this shift of resources can appear like a sudden severe decline.  However, it is not necessarily permanent.  The person could heal and recover some of their function.  I hope that helps someone?

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2 hours ago, DawnM said:

Yes, this is accurate.   We were talking about a home long before the Covid.   He is so hunched over he can't look up and he shuffles in `1" shuffles even when he is "fully functioning." 

This sounds so much like my mom. What is your dad's story? My mom has cervical dystonia plus a spine surgery that failed causing a fractured vertebrae. 

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1 hour ago, cintinative said:

This sounds so much like my mom. What is your dad's story? My mom has cervical dystonia plus a spine surgery that failed causing a fractured vertebrae. 

I am going to say that he did have a neck vertebrae injury that was never operated on, and he had a back lumbar injury from his fall last Aug that didn't properly heal.  

He is a HORRIBLE patient and doesn't do what he needs to do for himself.

 

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Today he had the nurse call me.  I  was up in VA with my son touring a college, and the nurse told me he wanted to talk to me.

He said, "Dawn!   You have dumped me in this horrible place and ABANDONED me!"

Sigh.   I just saw him 2 days ago and told him we were going away for a couple of days.   He doesn't remember.

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It's so painful to watch someone decline like this. Hugs for you.

A written note may help in future? You may well know this or have already thought along these lines, but I'll share how it worked for me with my aunt just in case it's helpful.

When my aunt had to be institutionalized, she had virtually no short-term recall at all. I kept a notebook in her room, and at the end of every visit I'd write a short paragraph in the notebook describing the visit, like so:

Hi Lisa!

I'm so glad we had a good visit today. We talked about the kids' playing piano and about music we love. They are working hard to get ready for their recital! We took a walk downstairs to look at the birds. We had some cookies for a snack. The purple track suit you wore today is really cute! I'll come again next week and I'll bring some nail polish. Love you!!!

I would leave the notebook open on her pillow, and I think others read and re-read those notes to her. 

The nursing staff also knew to simply call me if need be, often 4 or 5 times a week. I could swing her mood in about ten minutes most days. Stay cheerful. Listen to what he's anxious about. Then say sorry and give the explanation. Like: "Sorry you were so worried, Dad! I'm just out for a few days. I'll see you on Friday, I promise. I love you!"

It's a formula--he expresses his anxiety, he hears sorry, he hears an explanation, and he hears that you love him. Reassurance, connection.

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