Deleted

[Slache]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Then dd should have taken it with her. Why is this dd's shot to call more than Anne’s? It’s Anne’s house and her dd moved out. Now she’s supposed to bow to whatever her dd wants even after she’s moved out? She has spent this kid’s life doing that. At some point, she needs to start thinking about the other kids and their needs, because having lived this, I totally relate that they have likely spent years getting the short end because everything revolved around not upsetting their sister. To continue that after she is married and living elsewhere is unfair not just to Anne, but to her other kids. 

See I think I have a difference of opinion on a critical factor here. People keep saying that it's Ann's house, but it's DD's things. Ann let her put them in her house. She doesn't get to mess with them because they're not hers. If she had given the due date it would be different, but this was a surprise. That's why I said give the date now. Once that date hits it's fair game.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

Yes and no. 

She should have apologized for moving the things. If DD wanted a discussion after that then I think that's fine, but Ann should not have apologized for anything else and not more than once. She definitely needs to stop fixing but I'm a fixer and definitely not gonna judge there.

I don't have an opinion on dealing with DD's behavior.

I don't agree that she should have apologized. If she had packed up the dd's things and thrown them away, I would agree that she should have apologized for that, but she was very careful with the dd's things and the dd could have gotten them at any time. 

Had the dd not done the exact same thing in the past, I might be a little more sympathetic toward her, but how can she be angry with her mom for doing the same thing that she, herself, did when her older sister moved out? And also, her level of anger was completely inappropriate for the situation. Annoyance that her stuff was moved? OK, fine. But she is in a rage about this, and she also ruined her father's holiday today.

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

See I think I have a difference of opinion on a critical factor here. People keep saying that it's Ann's house, but it's DD's things. Ann let her put them in her house. She doesn't get to mess with them because they're not hers. If she had given the due date it would be different, but this was a surprise. That's why I said give the date now. Once that date hits it's fair game.

There is no date now. Now that we put them in boxes in one corner of the room, we really don't mind her taking the time she needs to go through them. That was the entire point, she seemed to need a lot of time and we thought this would give it to her. They can stay there for a year if needed. 

[Slache]

Just now, Catwoman said:

I don't agree that she should have apologized. If she had packed up the dd's things and thrown them away, I would agree that she should have apologized for that, but she was very careful with the dd's things and the dd could have gotten them at any time. 

Had the dd not done the exact same thing in the past, I might be a little more sympathetic toward her, but how can she be angry with her mom for doing the same thing that she, herself, did when her older sister moved out? And also, her level of anger was completely inappropriate for the situation. Annoyance that her stuff was moved? OK, fine. But she is in a rage about this, and she also ruined her father's holiday today.

Just because she did it doesn't make it ok. Maybe it's ok with some people but not others. Maybe she's matured and learned not to mess with other people's stuff.

I agree her response was inappropriate.

[mom2samlibby]

3 minutes ago, Slache said:

See I think I have a difference of opinion on a critical factor here. People keep saying that it's Ann's house, but it's DD's things. Ann let her put them in her house. She doesn't get to mess with them because they're not hers. If she had given the due date it would be different, but this was a surprise. That's why I said give the date now. Once that date hits it's fair game.

I would think that the wedding was the date. If one is old enough to marry and move out of her parent's house, one is old enough to take care of the items that they want to take with them.

Her tantrum is ridiculous. She is a married woman in a new house now. It's time to grow up. 

[Shoeless]

I think you should stop apologizing, OP. This really isn't the big deal that your DD and sil are making it out to be. Her stuff was moved from a desk that she didn't want to a different container.  It's not like you completely stripped the house of proof she lived there; you just moved a small pile of stuff to a different spot.

I have anxiety and so does my mother. We have both acted in ridiculous ways due to anxiety. I get your daughter feels like she needs to control every variable so the world works in ways she can handle. But...that's not how the world works.

Like, you didn't do anything really wrong. At worst it was slightly rude, but only slightly, and not worthy of more than and "Oh, I'm sorry; I didnt think this would upset you". A normal response from your DD  would have been to say "thank you", and *move on with her day* instead of cry, rant, and put your sil in the middle.  That's really not ok. 

Also, I would get your dog microchipped to show you as owner if you have not already. 

[Melissa Louise]

16 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I appreciate your insight. I'm not upset at all, just trying to truly truly understand and I'm targeting your responses because I find you level headed and you make sense and I truly want to understand. 

So, what if simply saying  "I'm sorry I moved your things" and leaving it there? what if that affirmed a lot of assumptions she had made when she texted me that she was upset? She made a lot of untrue assumptions and I didn't want her to write the narrative wrong in her head. if that makes sense.

Less is more with kids like this. 

Don't get into it unless she is asking for clarification as she builds or rebuilds her narrative. 

Short and sweet. 

It really is better to 'leave it there'.

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I don't agree that she should have apologized. If she had packed up the dd's things and thrown them away, I would agree that she should have apologized for that, but she was very careful with the dd's things and the dd could have gotten them at any time. 

 

This is the rest of my family's perspective. They think since all of her things are still there and in a way where she can go through them, that we did no wrong since dd already knew the furniture was going and she was in agreement with the furniture plan we had. If I hadn't had a chance to ask her about the furniture, if I threw things away, if I went through and read personal things, etc then we all agree...wrong.

 

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Less is more with kids like this. 

Don't get into it unless she is asking for clarification as she builds or rebuilds her narrative. 

Short and sweet. 

It really is better to 'leave it there'.

 

 

I need to get better at this. I tend to apologize too much and say too much. I need to just learn to say sorry with no further comment 

[Slache]

I'm always yelling at my husband "Use fewer words!" The more words you use and the more you explain the more can be misinterpreted or used against you.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, Slache said:

I'm always yelling at my husband "Use fewer words!" The more words you use and the more you explain the more can be misinterpreted or used against you.

Yes, older dd says using too many words and apologizing like I do makes me look more guilty lol. But if you are angry at me, I will feel extremely guilty. I can't help it. 

[Slache]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Yes, older dd says using too many words and apologizing like I do makes me look more guilty lol. But if you are angry at me, I will feel extremely guilty. I can't help it. 

I know. It's an empath thing. It's fine with other empaths, not with people like this. If you and I communicate poorly, we will assume the other had the best intentions so it's ok. It's also a VERY long term habit to the point that it's a part of your personality.

I am struggling to fix it 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

This is the rest of my family's perspective. They think since all of her things are still there and in a way where she can go through them, that we did no wrong since dd already knew the furniture was going and she was in agreement with the furniture plan we had. If I hadn't had a chance to ask her about the furniture, if I threw things away, if I went through and read personal things, etc then we all agree...wrong.

 

I need to get better at this. I tend to apologize too much and say too much. I need to just learn to say sorry with no further comment 

It's hard. You want to defend yourself and give context. That's normal! Many people would respond positively  to context; some people find it invalidating. You have to know which type of person you have in front of you. 

Parenting young adults is hard, and some young adults are harder than others, that's for sure. 

Fwiw, at one stage I did pack up dd's Very Precious exam papers after years of asking and stored them in totes. I've given her a deadline to make them her responsibility and not mine. After that, the bin. So I am way meaner.

There was a point at which I am no.longer responsible for dd's anxiety about letting go of 2017 exam papers, and that point was 'You have your own home and storage now'.

None of this is objectively egregious, and nor is the packing up of your dd's things. 

 

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

I know. It's an empath thing. It's fine with other empaths, not with people like this. If you and I communicate poorly, we will assume the other had the best intentions so it's ok. It's also a VERY long term habit to the point that it's a part of your personality.

I am struggling to fix it 

This is why I could do this with older dd but not younger?  I guess that makes sense. 

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Yes, older dd says using too many words and apologizing like I do makes me look more guilty lol. But if you are angry at me, I will feel extremely guilty. I can't help it. 

Try putting your thoughts in a text or email? Then you can read through, edit, say what you need to say in fewer words? 

Guilt feelings when someone is angry (and you are not particularly at fault according to a reasonable other) are baggage from long ago. Good to work on that. 

[Tanaqui]

While I still think that a simple apology for not giving her a fair advance warning was called for  (note: that's ONE apology, not repeated apologies, and for the lack of warning, not for moving the stuff), the fact that you just feel "extremely guilty" whenever people are angry, and then go out of your way to apologize is also not okay.

Upthread I said that while she's entitled to her feelings, the way she's acting is not acceptable. That goes for you too. It's one thing to feel guilty when people are angry. It's another to act on that feeling in a way that's harmful to you and others.

Your daughter may not be able to help feeling anxiety, but she certainly can learn not to act like this, with therapy and maybe medication.

You may not be able to help feeling guilty, but honestly, if it's affecting your life and relationships with others, you need to learn how to cope with it better than saying "That's how I am, I can't help it". That's the *exact same thing* we're saying your daughter needs to do: find a better way of handling her negative emotions.

I asked before if you're also getting therapy, either individually or with her. Therapy might help you learn how to react appropriately to her behavior when it's exacerbated by her anxiety.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

 

This is a legit question I'm pondering though. Read this through the lens of someone who is always quick to apologize and make peace and try to make things right. Not from a narcissistic person. Let's just say you're dealing with someone who is sensitive and has big emotions and can be upset easily and often. Some in my family have suggested that me apologizing so much validates her actions and attitudes and makes her feel right and justified in her behavior.  Is that true? Also, I'm just so extremely exhausted from being the peacemaker here. There were 5, FIVE, people involved in this. I am the only one who has apologized at all. Because of this I am the one who has been dumped on for apologizing wrongly. No one else will even apologize because they think she is totally out of line.

I want to say: there is a difference between being a "peacemaker" and being "a doormat".

I have a volatile anxious kid, so - btdt.  I'd tell her she's a grown up now with her own house, and it's time to put on her big girl panties.

Edited June 20, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/20/2022 at 2:45 AM, Melissa Louise said:

It's hard. You want to defend yourself and give context. That's normal! Many people would respond positively  to context; some people find it invalidating. You have to know which type of person you have in front of you. 

 

 

 

 

Tbh dd is usually fine with context and it helps bring perspective. This is a SIL thing. He has a lot of weird things around this. Also if I say wow, I'm sorry you feel that way, he says that is gaslighting. If he is upset, he will really nitpick your responses and point out things about them to invalidate them. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Slache said:

Just because she did it doesn't make it ok. Maybe it's ok with some people but not others. Maybe she's matured and learned not to mess with other people's stuff.

I agree her response was inappropriate.

The thing is, I'm not getting the impression that she has matured. Ann's stories about the greenhouses and the farmer's market show that the dd is extremely selfish and immature. 

I remember all of the help Ann and her dh gave their dd with that greenhouse, and all of the trouble and expense they went through to help the dd start her own business. And she isn't thankful, and she isn't appreciative, and she's not grateful. She just wants more, and it seems like when she doesn't get everything exactly her way, she pitches a fit.

At some point, people have to stop enabling her and making excuses for her terrible behavior. And just because sometimes she is fun and loving and warm, doesn't give her an excuse to behave so horribly to her mom and dad whenever things don't go her way. And now things may get even worse, because her new dh sounds awfully similar to her. 😞 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

This is why I could do this with older dd but not younger?  I guess that makes sense. 

Yup. And the younger crowds are learning to communicate between personality types because it's better for your mental health. That's why DD and I are saying the same thing. We're learning about it together, separately.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Tbh dd is usually fine with context and it helps bring perspective. This is a SIL thing. He has a lot of weird things around this. Also if I say wow, I'm sorry you feel that way, he says that is gaslighting. If he is upset, he will really nitpick your responses and claim all sorts of things about them. Drives me nuts. 

Yeah, I couldn't be doing with that. That's really unhelpful, unpleasant behaviour. I'm sorry he is adding fuel. 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

At some point, people have to stop enabling her and making excuses for her terrible behavior. And just because sometimes she is fun and loving and warm, doesn't give her an excuse to behave so horribly to her mom and dad whenever things don't go her way. And now things may get even worse, because her new dh sounds awfully similar to her. 😞 

I agree, but whether moving her stuff was wrong and whether her reaction was inappropriate are unrelated.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Tbh dd is usually fine with context and it helps bring perspective. This is a SIL thing. He has a lot of weird things around this. Also if I say wow, I'm sorry you feel that way, he says that is gaslighting. If he is upset, he will really nitpick your responses and claim all sorts of things about them. Drives me nuts. 

Your SIL sounds like he has some serious issues. Is he trying to isolate your dd from you by driving a wedge between your dd and your family? Because his behavior is WEIRD.

[Slache]

I'm sorry you feel that way can be gaslighting. You could be not gaslighting with a phrase that is triggering. I would refrain from using the phrase.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

I agree, but whether moving her stuff was wrong and whether her reaction was inappropriate are unrelated.

But what was so wrong about moving her stuff? 

Seriously. 

Nothing was thrown away. It doesn't sound like anything was even moved out of order.

[Catwoman]

Just now, Slache said:

I'm sorry you feel that way can be gaslighting. You could be not gaslighting with a phrase that is triggering. I would refrain from using the phrase.

Or maybe the SIL should stop making such negative assumptions about Ann, and maybe he should knock it off with his bossy demands and accusations.

I mean, the guy practically threatened to take Ann's dog! Something is not right with this guy.

[prairiewindmomma]

Boundaries are really important—essential for survival, really—if you are an empath/sensitive. I think tiptoeing around dd may feel to you like you are helping her, but I don’t think you are doing her a kindness in the long run. 
 

Some people with anxiety become so dysregulated that they lash out. That happens and she may not yet be able to control it. You can choose not to engage with her, though, until she is re-regulated. Finding some kind of phrase that you can use with her when she lashes out may be helpful. It sounds like in the current dysfunctional dynamic you feel guilty and try to smooth things over emotionally by fixing situations for her that bring her discomfort. She needs to learn to handle the discomfort and handle her dysregulation. I don’t think you were in the wrong here. I think she and SIL were. 
 

Honestly, both sound very immature. 

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

But what was so wrong about moving her stuff? 

Seriously. 

Nothing was thrown away. It doesn't sound like anything was even moved out of order.

Because it's her's. You don't touch other people's things. I don't care if she's done it, you don't do that.

You can disagree with me, but it's how I feel.

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Or maybe the SIL should stop making such negative assumptions about Ann, and maybe he should knock it off with his bossy demands and accusations.

I mean, the guy practically threatened to take Ann's dog! Something is not right with this guy.

But he's not going to, so I suggested something she can do.

Agreed.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It would be seriously tiring to play such games with people who are supposed to be adults.  Adults can make their wishes known without resorting to tantrums.  Adults can also think of others and take their needs and desires into account.  Adults don't demand apologies for small infractions.  They might honestly explain their feelings but can put things into perspective. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Slache said:

I'm sorry you feel that way can be gaslighting. You could be not gaslighting with a phrase that is triggering. I would refrain from using the phrase.

Oh don't worry, I have been told. But here is the thing. "I'm sorry that you felt it was rude for me to suggest that you hold off on dd's phone plan since it is stressing her. I had no intention of communicating for y'all, it felt in context per our conversation. I'm really sorry and I'll try not to make suggestions in the future." 

He would negate the entire apology because I said I'm sorry that you feel like it was rude ....

I have no problems apologizing when I'm wrong. But if I wasn't wrong, if it just triggers you somehow then I'm just sorry that you're feeling that way. Why should I apologize for your triggers? work on your triggers instead of nitpicking me

[SKL]

I feel like the whole timeline was loosey-goosey with dd being allowed to play around and not move her own stuff when she had the opportunity.  In hindsight, it would have been better to give her a deadline around the time she moved out.  With the understanding that if she doesn't get her stuff out by X date, then you're going to let her kid brothers stuff it all in the basement or something.

I do feel that it was insensitive to move her stuff without any advance notice or warning.  I understand that the timing was convenient, but it wasn't an emergency.

I also feel that her reaction is way over the top and childish.  I understand being kinda shocked at first, but then you realize the change makes sense and you get over it.  You don't boycott Father's Day.  I mean she was the one who moved out in the first place, right?  Is she keeping her current home the way its previous occupants had it?  Of course not.

I don't blame her new husband for supporting her.  She's crying to him.  He doesn't see the whole picture.  I do think he's also going overboard, though, with the "we don't accept your apology" stuff.  It makes me feel like he's trying to turn her against her folks.

I think the short story is:  we were impulsive about moving the stuff, but it was only a matter of time.

Fact is, you did her a favor by not letting her drag it out and torture herself indefinitely.  It was just clumsily done.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

Because it's her's. You don't touch other people's things. I don't care if she's done it, you don't do that.

You can disagree with me, but it's how I feel.

See, I would normally agree with you about not touching other people's things, but the dd knew the things had to be moved and she hadn't done it, and she had already moved out of the house without those things, so I think this situation is different.

Ann and her dh had the help they needed to get the work done, so they took advantage of that, and I don't blame them. Her dh works hard, and probably really welcomed some help.

They didn't let anyone root through the dd's things; all they did was move them from one place to another. If they had just thrown all of her things into a contractor bag and tossed it carelessly out in the garage, I could understand that the dd's feelings would have be hurt by that, but putting things neatly in a box in the same order it was in the drawers? That was doing the dd a favor, not being disrespectful of her stuff.

And I really do think it matters that the dd had absolutely no qualms about packing up her older sister's things, because that says a lot about her character. She thinks she can do whatever she wants, and she also thinks she gets to approve or disapprove of everything everyone else does. Why should she have that kind of control over a household where she doesn't even live any more?

 

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

See, I would normally agree with you about not touching other people's things, but the dd knew the things had to be moved and she hadn't done it, and she had already moved out of the house without those things, so I think this situation is different.

And I really do think it matters that the dd had absolutely no qualms about packing up her older sister's things, because that says a lot about her character. She thinks she can do whatever she wants, and she also thinks she gets to approve or disapprove of everything everyone else does. Why should she have that kind of control over a household where she doesn't even live any more?

But she said she was going to. She just hadn't done it yet, so it's still off limits.

You keep trying to point to DD being wrong in other areas as if that justifies doing wrong to her. Her crappy behavior is unrelated to if OP was wrong.

I'm going to bed. Good night all!

[mathnerd]

12 minutes ago, Slache said:

Because it's her's. You don't touch other people's things. I don't care if she's done it, you don't do that.

This sounds strange - I think that one shouldn't leave their stuff all over other people's houses, inconvenience the people who are living there, not give a deadline on when they will take their stuff, move out without an ETA on when they will be emotionally prepared to do the needful. This kind of behavior is entitled, selfish and takes the bio-family for granted. I know that this is her mother's house and not "other people's house" but if I were her and did not want "other people" to touch my things, I will make sure 100% that there is no opportunity for them to touch my things. She refused to be considerate enough to do what she needed to do to make her family comfortable. It was OK for her if her younger brother had to keep all his stuff in another room and sleep in her room amongst her things, and it was OK for her if her older sister and other family members had to spend their time and effort to move all her stuff when she and her DH should have done all the work and then apologized to the younger brother for monopolizing what must have been his room. Instead she pitches a fit on Father's Day about it. @Ann.without.an.e, I am very sorry that your DH's Father's Day was ruined by this. You guys need to ask her to apologize for all the manpower and effort you had to put in for her sake.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

This sounds strange - I think that one shouldn't leave their stuff all over other people's houses, inconvenience the people who are living there, not give a deadline on when they will take their stuff, move out without an ETA on when they will be emotionally prepared to do the needful. This kind of behavior is entitled, selfish and takes the bio-family for granted. I know that this is her mother's house and not "other people's house" but if I were her and did not want "other people" to touch my things, I will make sure 100% that there is no opportunity for them to touch my things. She refused to be considerate enough to do what she needed to do to make her family comfortable. It was OK for her if her younger brother had to keep all his stuff in another room and sleep in her room amongst her things, and it was OK for her if her older sister and other family members had to spend their time and effort to move all her stuff when she and her DH should have done all the work and then apologized to the younger brother for monopolizing what must have been his room. Instead she pitches a fit on Father's Day about it. @Ann.without.an.e, I am very sorry that your DH's Father's Day was ruined by this. You guys need to ask her to apologize for all the manpower and effort you had to put in for her sake.

 

Exactly.  You don't leave your stuff in other people's houses if you don't want them to have to deal with it.  This wasn't a storage room that she had paid for to keep her childhood things.  This was a room that she had moved out of. . A room that was and is badly needed by others. 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Exactly.  You don't leave your stuff in other people's houses if you don't want them to have to deal with it.  This wasn't a storage room that she had paid for to keep her childhood things.  This was a room that she had moved out of. . A room that was and is badly needed by others. 

Yes! It's not even like Ann was converting the dd's room to a craft room for herself; the room was for one of the other kids. Why should that boy have to wait to move his things into his new room? That would be completely unfair to him. He should be excited about getting his own room, and be able to enjoy putting his things where he wants them, without having his older sister's stuff in the way. 

[Farrar]

I don't understand the people who feel the OP did something so wrong with her dd's "things" that her dd very specifically said should be gotten rid of. Like, she didn't want the desk, she also planned to get rid of it and just had not cleaned it out yet, despite having planned to do it for weeks and despite not living there anymore, and despite the fact that not doing so was interfering with someone's else's living space.

I agree that OP should work on her apology style and that she really should have given her a heads up and a firm deadline and all that, but like, this is the equivalent of having to get the apology JUST RIGHT for something SO MINOR. Like, yeah, I shouldn't have moved your cheese. Sorry. But also, maybe get over it.

This is such a small thing. I don't understand how anyone can get into justifying the dd's feelings and bashing the OP on this extent. Because, just to be clear, the dd's feelings are not about the desk. They're about moving out, getting married, having a major anxiety-inducing life change, and about her feelings about her family. This is not about a desk. If it hadn't been this desk, the family would have eventually done something else to make her this upset about the moving out process. There was no way for them to win because she seems to have zero ability to show grace because her anxiety is too high.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Yes! It's not even like Ann was converting the dd's room to a craft room for herself; the room was for one of the other kids. Why should that boy have to wait to move his things into his new room? That would be completely unfair to him. He should be excited about getting his own room, and be able to enjoy putting his things where he wants them, without having his older sister's stuff in the way. 

Well, if the OP did want it as a craft room then that would be a perfectly legitimate use for a room in her own house. And while the need might be less urgent I still don’t think that she should have to give free storage for a long period of time. 
 

Boxing up items for the dd to go through on her own time table is showing grace and compassion for how the process can be stressful and anxiety inducing.  The dd has admitted that she didn’t care about the furniture, so keeping the items encased in the furniture actually wasn’t the issue. And I don’t think that privacy was the issue either as it doesn’t sound like the dd saw this as an infringement of her privacy. She just didn’t want anything other than keeping an untouched shrine in her parent’s home. 

[Janeway]

Can I add something here? I just wanna mention that and I’m not the only one who’s done this, but through the years, I might get really upset about something. But then later on you know you think back to it and basically, that’s not really what I was that upset about. There were other things going on. She’s probably not that upset that you moved her stuff but rather upset about something else. Getting married is stressful so maybe she’s stressed about that. Maybe if she was the baby of the family maybe she thought she wanted to be married but it’s been hard to realize that she’s no longer the baby the family living at home. Or maybe Mary life is not what it she expected it to be. There could be all sorts of things so I have no idea I’m just throwing ideas out there. So if you do decide to apologize to her you might wanna just very kindly ask her if there’s anything else bothering her that she’d like to talk about.

[Lecka]

I think that with kids, it’s important to try not to give siblings reasons to feel like one child gets away with things *unfairly.*. I think it is fair to have things be different but appropriate.

 

I don’t think this is a time it’s appropriate to have things be unfair — but it’s fair because of one child’s needs.

I just don’t think it rises to that level.

 

My kids need to feel like the other kids are held accountable for their actions in a fair way.

 

If I’m asking for the other kids to sit by and see one kid be treated with kid gloves — I need to be able to explain it to them and I need to be ready to stand by it.

 

Sure I will make mistakes anyway, and some things are so hard to know what is the right thing to do.

 

But I had the startings of this dynamic and it’s hard for me to be — not feeling guilty and like I need to make things better.

 

But guess what?  I also didn’t want to feel like the siblings were going to have their own relationships harmed.

 

This is something that made it easier for me to deal with — basically knowing I might set someone off.

 

My situation was really dissimilar and I was getting professional advice that I needed to look for times to basically trigger this child at a time when I could work on the responses and dynamics.  It’s very dissimilar but what is similar is I felt guilt and like it wasn’t what I should be doing to be a kind and loving mother.

 

But for our situation — I saw a pp mention this — and the situation was not anxiety or OCD — but anyway the strong professional advice was that if I worked to change the dynamic and suffered through some triggering things, then the dynamic would change.  
 

I don’t think we had as complex of a situation and I hope you can receive professional help specific to your daughter.

 

I don’t think of my husband as being part of my situation, either, which I think sounds so hard.

 

Anyway — I don’t know about this specific thing — it sounds like it’s already over to me.  Everyone is already mad.  
 

It sounds like some people in your family are at a point of being fed up with your daughter and very frustrated with you.  Your older daughter sounds like she is at this point.  
 

Well — I think you need to try to change this dynamic.  I don’t think it’s good for your daughter and I don’t think it’s good for your relationship with your other kids.

Your daughter can’t always rely on you and if you take on things being your fault, your daughter doesn’t have to deal with her own role.  Is that the whole story?  I don’t know.  But I see that side and it sounds like other family members do, too.

 

I think a goal could be to work to change the dynamic, and be able to tell everyone you are working to change the dynamic and will make some changes.  But that it’s not going to be all how any of them would like.  You may not want to get as tough as some would like, and you can’t take away the past.  But you can change some dynamics now.  
 

I think you could also change dynamics where multiple people complain to you about your responses by setting a boundary around that.  But to me a good boundary would be “I am seeing a therapist and working to change some of my dynamics.”  And say you need to have some things be with the therapist.

 

I don’t know if this is the case but do you often have various people try to convince you of different things and you don’t want to make any of them mad?  If so you can set some boundaries.
 

To me I think number one is talking to a counselor or therapist about the best or most effective way to handle things.

 

And then number two is — accepting that sometimes people will be mad at you, and I think you’re in a situation where for at least a period of time somebody is going to be mad at you no matter what.  I don’t think it’s fair to you but I think that it’s your job to live with the best moral and family values possible, not to prevent people from being mad at you and fix them getting along with each other.  I think the number one thing you can change is your own part in some dynamics.  Yes it seems very indirect but I think it is what can go a long way. 

[Katy]

I missed the OP but IME it’s a very bad idea to walk on eggshells and let anyone’s mental illness control a whole family, especially when the person no longer lives there. 

DD was going to pitch a fit no matter when this happened. Better to have ripped off the bandaid. You can cushion the feelings with gentle language wrapping the boundaries to soften them, but apologizing for anything more than feelings is a lie, and her claiming otherwise is selfish. Frankly I’d deliver her stuff to her house too. Nicely but firmly. Her anxiety cannot control a house. It’s lying to her.

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, happi duck said:

@ktgrok

 Idk.  Fair is everyone gets what they need not everyone gets the same.  I grew up in a house where we shuffled arrangements all the time so the brother sleeping in there with the dog without all his stuff for a little longer is nothing ime.

I think we need to clarify if it was in fact a NEED to keep her bedroom the same in a house she wasn't living in, to the point her brothers had to continue to share while she had her own HOUSE AND a bedroom at home. Or, was that a want. Maybe a very strongly held want, but not a need. 

And I do get that emotional things can be needs. I have a kid on the spectrum, and a kid with a neuropsychiatric disease that can make him utterly irrational with anxiety and OCD. There are times where this exact scenario may be a need - but just because it is upsetting her doesn't make it a need. 

Not everything that makes us anxious NEEDS to be avoided, even when we have an anxiety disorder. Especially when she needs to keep her relationship healthy with her other kids too, so they don't end up in counseling or on this forum years from now talking about how their sister was the golden child and they were an afterthought, and now they don't know how to set boundaries because they learned to always keep the anxious person happy. 

[Lecka]

Really I think another person doesn’t help if they take responsibility for another person feeling upset, if it’s unreasonable.  
 

She’s upset — yes.  It’s all your fault — no.  
 

It’s maybe a little your fault — yes.  
 

If you take responsibility for her feelings “yes it’s my fault and it’s my job to make you feel better and keep you from feeling upset” it just doesn’t help her to deal with her own feelings.

 

I think it is kind in the moment but it’s not kind in the long run.  In the long run she will do better without thinking she can blame you when she feels upset.

 

But really this might be something for her and her husband to take on now.  
 

But still I think it’s something where you could see a therapist and it could be helpful.  
 

I personally think it can defuse things and make it be less of “well let’s see who can talk this person into agreeing with one side or the other.”

 

I’m thinking half of my own situation and half of some things with my ILs.

 

They really do try to talk my MIL into different things and she agonizes over it.  And I’m sure she feels helpless and doesn’t want to upset anyone.  But I think there are things she could do to change the dynamic, even though I also think some people wouldn’t like it.  
 

But how can anyone like changing a dynamic that is all they currently know?  How could it be smooth?

 

But I think with a counselor it can really help.  

[ktgrok]

I think two things are true here (at least, lol). 

1. You should have called her the minute you all decided to move stuff. Like, when the idea came up, quickly grabbed the phone and called DD. "Hey, you know how we talked about DS needing your room, but you've been so busy, and Daddy is really feeling run down, so it hasn't gotten done? Well, SIL and older DS are here, and they actually offered to help Daddy move the heavy stuff, so he doesn't have to try to do it on his own. Do you want me to just put your papers and things in a storage bin, or do you want to come over now and do that? And I can put the desk in XYZ room/space/garage for you to go through later, or I can just put everything in there into a box for you, and that way you can go through it at your house if you would rather, or here at the kitchen table. Whatever of those works best. And if you want to come over now, that works too, and I'll order some pizza for everyone. I just want to make sure we get the bulk of it moved while I have the help."

2. Even though yes, you should have called her, rather than surprising her (people with anxiety do NOT NOT NOT NOT like surprises), that does not mean she gets to treat you and her father as evil monsters. It hurt her, but it wasn't malicious, it was a mistake. You apologize for not giving her a heads up, but that's it. 

3. She also did wrong by not moving her stuff out and selfishly holding on to that room when she knew her brother should have it. She should have apologized to him for taking so long to clear out her stuff for him. I wouldn't hold my breath on that, but it is true. 

4. Sometimes we do the wrong thing, and sometimes others hurt us, without meaning to. We do not cut off contact, or go nuclear, or use them as emotional punching bags because of it. In the moment, I can see how someone would lash out if they were emotionally hurting. But when the moment is over, she needed to move on. She doesnt' get to have a life where no one makes a mistake or upsets her. None of us do. 

I'd apologize for not giving her the option to be there for the packing up. And then I'd say that her father did not purposely hurt her, and she IS purposely hurting him. That people, even parents, make mistakes, and it isn't okay to treat a mistake as the same as purposely hurting someone. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

23 hours ago, Lecka said:

Really I think another person doesn’t help if they take responsibility for another person feeling upset, if it’s unreasonable.  
 

She’s upset — yes.  It’s all your fault — no.  
 

It’s maybe a little your fault — yes.  
 

If you take responsibility for her feelings “yes it’s my fault and it’s my job to make you feel better and keep you from feeling upset” it just doesn’t help her to deal with her own feelings.

 

I think it is kind in the moment but it’s not kind in the long run.  In the long run she will do better without thinking she can blame you when she feels upset.

 

But really this might be something for her and her husband to take on now.  
 

But still I think it’s something where you could see a therapist and it could be helpful.  
 

I personally think it can defuse things and make it be less of “well let’s see who can talk this person into agreeing with one side or the other.”

 

I’m thinking half of my own situation and half of some things with my ILs.

 

They really do try to talk my MIL into different things and she agonizes over it.  And I’m sure she feels helpless and doesn’t want to upset anyone.  But I think there are things she could do to change the dynamic, even though I also think some people wouldn’t like it.  
 

But how can anyone like changing a dynamic that is all they currently know?  How could it be smooth?

 

But I think with a counselor it can really help.  

Thank you for both of these posts. So much good in them. 

i need better boundaries and I have been working on them. I need a therapist but the best I know is DD’s therapist and I can’t decide if seeing her is ok or not. 

I’m the only one with a lot of compassion left. The rest of them love her so much but really have had to choose to just not care about her feelings. And that’s not healthy either. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Dianthus]

6 hours ago, Catwoman said:

The thing is, I'm not getting the impression that she has matured. Ann's stories about the greenhouses and the farmer's market show that the dd is extremely selfish and immature. 

I remember all of the help Ann and her dh gave their dd with that greenhouse, and all of the trouble and expense they went through to help the dd start her own business. And she isn't thankful, and she isn't appreciative, and she's not grateful. She just wants more, and it seems like when she doesn't get everything exactly her way, she pitches a fit.

At some point, people have to stop enabling her and making excuses for her terrible behavior. And just because sometimes she is fun and loving and warm, doesn't give her an excuse to behave so horribly to her mom and dad whenever things don't go her way. And now things may get even worse, because her new dh sounds awfully similar to her. 😞 

@Ann.without.an.e , I really hate the book, but I just see The Giving Tree in this. You do need to stop. Maybe you should also give a copy of the book to dd. 

[Farrar]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Thank you for both of these posts. So much good in them. 

i need better boundaries and I have been working on them. I need a therapist but the best I know is DD’s therapist and I can’t decide if seeing her is ok or not. 

I’m the only one with a lot of compassion left for dd still. The rest of them love her so much but really have had to choose to just not care about her feelings. And that’s not healthy either. 

Actually, I think they probably are right not to "care" about her feelings. And this may be part of where you're going wrong to some extent.

You can't control someone else's feelings. You can't change them. You can't always predict them. And for someone who has big mood swings and a lot of anxiety, spending time trying to care about those feelings isn't healthy. It's not healthy for the person because it just feeds into the sense that others should be in charge of managing their feelings. And it's not healthy for the carer because it creates a lot of anxiety and worry and pain that's eventually going to blow up into something worse like resentment or distrust.

We use this phrase "care about" in a very loose way, so I don't know for sure what you're meaning, but as someone who described herself as an empath, I'd say that boundaries are better than caring. They're better for you and her. And they don't make you cold or unfeeling or harsh. The best way to love someone is often to let them have the feelings they have and focus on how you can support them, not how you can feel what they're feeling or change it or sympathize with it. 

[happi duck]

34 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think we need to clarify if it was in fact a NEED to keep her bedroom the same in a house she wasn't living in, to the point her brothers had to continue to share while she had her own HOUSE AND a bedroom at home. Or, was that a want. Maybe a very strongly held want, but not a need. 

And I do get that emotional things can be needs. I have a kid on the spectrum, and a kid with a neuropsychiatric disease that can make him utterly irrational with anxiety and OCD. There are times where this exact scenario may be a need - but just because it is upsetting her doesn't make it a need. 

Not everything that makes us anxious NEEDS to be avoided, even when we have an anxiety disorder. Especially when she needs to keep her relationship healthy with her other kids too, so they don't end up in counseling or on this forum years from now talking about how their sister was the golden child and they were an afterthought, and now they don't know how to set boundaries because they learned to always keep the anxious person happy. 

It sounds like the dd deals with an anxiety disorder.  The op said she kept trying and was getting overwhelmed.  The dd wasn't too busy she was struggling.

I believe she did need more time and help to get through the task...not help putting it in boxes but help calming her system and getting through the needed task.  Again she was trying.  The need here wasn't to keep her childhood bedroom but to have some more time.

[catz]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Actually, I think they probably are right not to "care" about her feelings. And this may be part of where you're going wrong to some extent.

 

I was coming to share some version of this.  You can be kind and try to do your best.  But you really cannot control anyone else's feelings.  I actually think NOT engaging in someone else's specific anxiety triggers which are subject to change at any time is emotionally healthy.  That doesn't mean you don't care.  It means you aren't responsible for someone else's unhealthy response system.  It wasn't unreasonable to think you were removing a stressor by removing a time contstraint for her to go through her stuff.  Sometimes life happens and hers weren't the only important feelings in the mix.  

We have anxiety here at times (including me at times, ramped up during covid) and I find it helpful to call it out and name it as it is rather than try to make nice on minor things.  Name the anxiety and name the underlying trigger if possible.  I don't think I'd offer more than a passing apology "I'm sorry this didn't get done the way you preferred.  It seems like your anxiety is making this more difficult, this is a big transition for all of us and we will misstep at times."  

I don't think you were wrong to move ahead at all at this point.  And it so unfair to the kids in the home to be held hostage by the sister that moved out.  I wouldn't let her stuff sit in his room for long either, I'd probably extend an offer to deliver it or they can pick it up.  I have experience with being the "easy" kid.  Because I felt being the easy kid was shoved down my throat, I didn't have the option.  It has absolutely affected my family relationships for life and my own anxiety about different things.  

I do think when these transitions are happening there will almost ALWAYS be misteps and tensions and double that with anxiety.  So from your perspective, I'd keep reminding yourself that there are going to be growing pains and lashing out.  I actually think a little space and time might be healthy.  

[Catwoman]

20 minutes ago, happi duck said:

It sounds like the dd deals with an anxiety disorder.  The op said she kept trying and was getting overwhelmed.  The dd wasn't too busy she was struggling.

I believe she did need more time and help to get through the task...not help putting it in boxes but help calming her system and getting through the needed task.  Again she was trying.  The need here wasn't to keep her childhood bedroom but to have some more time.

I think the problem here is that there may never have been enough time. She knew she had to do this, and it sounds like she has tried and failed at it, because she gets emotional. If she was an only child, I would have suggested that Ann give her some more time to deal with this, but she's not an only child, and her brother was moving into her room, and she knew it. 

By not getting the room cleaned out, she was very inconsiderate toward her brother. Her older sister had been very nice about it when this dd packed up her stuff so she could have that room to herself, so she doesn't really have a leg to stand on here. There are several kids in the family, and she shouldn't get to be the special snowflake all the time.

I do feel sorry for her that she seems overwhelmed, but as @ktgrok mentioned in an earlier post, I can absolutely imagine her later being thought of by her siblings as the golden child. Seeing her get so much extra attention and care from Ann and her dh may ultimately damage not only her relationships with her family, but it may also damage their relationships with each other, and also make them resentful of Ann in particular, who they may view as an enabler who spoils that dd at the expense of the other kids' needs and wants. I can imagine that there might be a lot of jealousy toward that dd because she is so demanding of her parents' time and emotional energy. (And I'm not blaming Ann and her dh here -- I know they love all of their kids and they are trying to give extra help to this dd because they sense that she needs it more than the others do. The problem is that the other kids deserve equal time, and shouldn't feel like they are being punished because they don't require so much handholding.)

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, catz said:

I was coming to share some version of this.  You can be kind and try to do your best.  But you really cannot control anyone else's feelings.  I actually think NOT engaging in someone else's specific anxiety triggers which are subject to change at any time is emotionally healthy.  That doesn't mean you don't care.  It means you aren't responsible for someone else's unhealthy response system.  It wasn't unreasonable to think you were removing a stressor by removing a time contstraint for her to go through her stuff.  Sometimes life happens and hers weren't the only important feelings in the mix.  

We have anxiety here at times (including me at times, ramped up during covid) and I find it helpful to call it out and name it as it is rather than try to make nice on minor things.  Name the anxiety and name the underlying trigger if possible.  I don't think I'd offer more than a passing apology "I'm sorry this didn't get done the way you preferred.  It seems like your anxiety is making this more difficult, this is a big transition for all of us and we will misstep at times."  

I don't think you were wrong to move ahead at all at this point.  And it so unfair to the kids in the home to be held hostage by the sister that moved out.  I wouldn't let her stuff sit in his room for long either, I'd probably extend an offer to deliver it or they can pick it up.  I have experience with being the "easy" kid.  Because I felt being the easy kid was shoved down my throat, I didn't have the option.  It has absolutely affected my family relationships for life and my own anxiety about different things.  

I do think when these transitions are happening there will almost ALWAYS be misteps and tensions and double that with anxiety.  So from your perspective, I'd keep reminding yourself that there are going to be growing pains and lashing out.  I actually think a little space and time might be healthy.  

This makes so much sense to me!

I think your perspective as the "easy kid" is so important here. 

Just because the other kids aren't complaining, doesn't mean they don't feel resentment toward their sister (or toward their parents) because they feel she is monopolizing their parents' time, money, and attention. It's so easy for parents to forget about that when one kid is so needy and the others are more self-sufficient, because it's probably such a relief to only have to hyper-focus on one, and feel confident that the others will do ok with less hands-on attention. I mean, the parents probably really love, appreciate, and are proud of the other kids, but they might not think to say so, because the needy kid is so... needy.