Apologetics OR reasons not to be a Christian

[Momto6inIN]

16 hours ago, WTM said:

We are a Christian family, DH and I were raised protestant, and we've raised our kids in the church.

DD13 is at the age where she wants to really decide and evaluate for herself. We're supportive of this. We feel that it's healthy to examine all sides if she is interested and ready, and that if the faith is true, God will speak to her and draw her in. We don't want to avoid tough questions.  

I've been thinking of compiling some resources that are more apologetics oriented. I'd appreciate suggestions. What I have so far (random brain dump):

Mere Christianity / Problem of Pain / Screwtape Letters (CS Lewis)

Crime and Punishment (Dostoyevsky) - she recently read this. I'm reading it now trying to catch up...

The Plague (Camus) - this was influential for DH, I haven't read it so need to screen it

Evangelism Explosion (DH's youth group went through this when he was young, and he loved it. He said the youth kids would argue about faith for hours, and did not shy away from tough questions). 

The Case for Christ - lower on my list, as I don't think DD will like the tone of the book 

 

Any suggestions? Or any BTDT advice?

I haven't read all the responses, just a few.

I think if she's really and truly interested and ready she will research and think about these issues herself. I have been very supportive of my teens researching it on their own and have encouraged them to do it and to talk to me about what they find out because it's so interesting and thought provoking. I tell them it's great to dig down deep to figure out on your own what you believe and/or don't believe because I can't give them my faith, I can only encourage them to find their own, and that Truth is capable of standing up to serious scrutiny and study.

IME, teens as young as 13 are usually not as ready for critical thinking about these issues as they think they are and as their parents sometimes think they are. They are usually just testing the waters to see what you think about them questioning *your* faith, not actually ready to embark on a deep voyage of self discovery of *their* faith. Again, IME. YMMV.

HOWEVER - I would be very, very, very leery of finding resources myself and giving my kid books about faith that disagreed with my worldview. If they're really ready for that type of soul searching, they'll find the resources themselves naturally. My dad thought he was treating me like an adult by discussing philosophy/theology with me and ended up making me think he believed something and endorsed something completely opposite. It took me literally years to figure out what I believed for myself and I still sometimes have doubts related to what he discussed with me. I've never told him this because I know he would be devastated to realize that he (unintentionally and with the best of motives) led me in a direction that caused me so much pain and anguish. Kids attach a BIG importance to what their parents tell them might be true, whether they are teens or little kids and whether they admit it or not. I certainly would never have admitted it at the time that my dad's opinions held so much sway over me, but they did.

[importswim]

16 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I wouldn't call your suggestions supporting her seeing all sides. I would call it bombarding her with your side and turning it into an academic assignment.  It's off putting and not the approach Jesus or His disciples used.

Also, as a Christian myself, I wouldn't suggest an apologetics approach. We have enough people in church buildings who are there because of someone else's arguments instead of being there because of personal experience with The Spirit drawing them to Himself and indwelling them.

Ultimately, people don't come to Christ because of arguments, they come because they experienced the love and grace of God, usually demonstrated by sacrificial love shown by one of Jesus' followers..  Right now the evangelical world (my world) has largely failed to understand it and now they're scratching their heads wondering why people good at arguments like Zacharias and MacArthur haven't been transformed into christlikeness.  Well, folks, it's because that's not how that works.

Please, please, please don't part of that mess-your daughter deserves so much better than that. Churches are losing so many young people who were raised in that apologetics argumentation culture.  Just love her and others like Jesus does in humbleness. Do justice, love mercy.  Serve the least of these.

HS Mom in NC, I just want to say that you're a treasure on this board! I often read a topic/thread and start forming a response only to find that you've eloquently put my thoughts into words already. I really appreciate your ability to do so and thought I'd tell you. 

OP: All of my advice is going to be for YOU and not for your daughter (though I think if you start with yourself first it may help with her!)

I would start with reading the Bible yourself with emphasis on God's whole plan, who He is, and who we are in Him. Pray that the Holy Spirit would help you rightly divide truth. That may naturally help you to answer some of the questions that your daughter has at to what you believe. From there I'd look at trusted commentaries if you're having trouble with what the verses intended.

After that I'd read some of the books that PP's suggested, including the ones from Atheists (and even the ones that have a harsh tone that some are saying). Go through with your husband (or by yourself) and ask yourself those hard questions and come to a stance on an answer. Know why you believe what you believe. Pray for wisdom, use scripture as the source text for answers. Try not to take things out of the context of what it tells us about God, how to walk with Him, and how to walk with others. We should not be afraid of asking questions or reading harsh opposition. It should cement what you believe and give you a ready response to give a reason for the hope that you have.

You said that your daughter is smart. She'll want to know what you believe and why. You can present your answers as "some people believe xyz, your dad and I believe that abc and here's why". Those conversations will do a lot more to foster her understanding and will help knit you together as a family even if she ends up not believing the same as you.

TLDR: Don't give your daughter books. Research for yourself. Define what you believe. Have open and heartfelt conversations. Enjoy relationship with her. Pray for The Lord to draw her to Himself and open her eyes to truth. Love her well if it doesn't happen.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Again, just thinking aloud.  And with the caveat that this is how things mesh in my own thinking about my faith and my faith journey.  So I guess you could say that this is my decision tree.  I will put right here that every step in my decision tree (which is not the only way to go through thinking about this, has a place where many people disagree with me and either turn to another religion or turn to atheism or humanism.)

For me, it needs to start with a creator because if there is a creator and I am a created being then that right there is a relationship.  It might not be a relationship of faith, but there is a relationship between us of Creator- creature.    (I am fully aware that for many people this is where their faith or non-faith journey goes a different way than mine.  They don't believe in a creator.  And before this becomes a debate about evolution, that doesn't come into it for me.  I see a creator as being fully able to create the universe in multiple ways.)

Because I do see the hand of a Creator in the universe, even if I were not a Christian, I would firmly fall into the bin of someone who believes in Intelligent Design. 

So my next step in my thinking is whether that Intelligent Designer is the one in the Bible or not.  I personally don't see an Intelligent Designer in any other religion who has the omniscience and omnipotence and even omnipresence necessary to create the Universe without being created Himself.  So He has to be outside of time and the material universe.  So it's either the God of the Bible or some unknown Intelligent Designer. 

So then I turn my attention to human beings and the "human condition".  What religion really describes human beings accurately?  I see that in the Bible.  This is also vitally important to me to know if I should trust myself (or any other human being) to be the arbiter of right/wrong, of how we should live,, our destiny etc.  So add "there is a creator and the one in the Bible is it" to "I am not the arbiter of how I should live etc" and I come down to the question of should I bow down to this creator?  Should I seek to know His way of doing things whether it makes sense to me or not? 

And this gets to the nitty gritty of the Bible's teachings - that in order for me to have a right relationship with God that I need to accept what Jesus Christ did on the cross.  For me, to reject that of the creator is arrogance on the part of the creature.  And this is the hardest part of Christianity for me.  There is a lot about Christianity that is "foolishness":  that God would decide to become a God-man in order to sacrifice Himself on the cross for our sins.  That God would ask me to trust Him sight unseen (though there are evidences given in the Bible so it isn't simply a blind faith).  That He would ask me to die to myself and to put myself totally in His hands.  Even though that has required going through some pretty tough times and yet I trust that when the Bible says that God is Love, He really is still that.  But to accept that foolishness really does require the work of God the Holy Spirit to reach someone.  And it requires someone to show positive volition in responding to God even though often we really don't see or understand it all clearly.  And it requires me to respond to the gospel message by faith but to not stop there but to continue to live each day by faith, trusting in a God who doesn't explain everything to me but yet asks me to trust Him with my life. 

[Laura Corin]

You might find this old thread useful, not as material for your child, but just to provide clues to other modes of thought.

I personally haven't had an impulse to spirituality since early childhood, so I have no experience of questioning faith.
   

 

[EKS]

17 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I wouldn't call your suggestions supporting her seeing all sides. I would call it bombarding her with your side and turning it into an academic assignment.

I agree.  Assuming you're serious about presenting all sides, The Magic of Reality is good.  

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, EKS said:

I agree.  Assuming you're serious about presenting all sides, The Magic of Reality is good.  

We love that one here. It’s very good. I am not a Dawkins fan on a lot of levels, but that particular book is a favorite. The audiobook is well done, too.

[Guest]

@Laura Corin I remember the “Ask a…” threads as some of the most illuminating series of threads I have ever read on any board. I’m so glad you dug a link up! 

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

Well, as a person who was raised without religious belief, the thing that makes me currently skeptical of any particular religion as ultimate truth is the incredible variety of them and the breadth of both similarities and differences between them, and the realization that they can't all be true, and they largely negate each other. I mean, a person raised Hindu (or in Ancient Greece) often believes as concretely in those religious myths as a modern bible-believing protestant does in the idea that Jesus turned water into wine and is the literal son of God, and that just seems a little too handily coincidental to me. So perhaps some exposure to lots of different religious beliefs across culture and history? At least it's educational, one way or another.

for me, I see it as the blind men and the elephant. All contain truth in some way, none are complete truth. 

18 hours ago, WTM said:

She didn’t ask for books per se. She said she wanted to explore why people chose not to be Christians. When asked if she wanted to go to youth camp this summer, she said no- that she’d prefer  a camp that fostered / allowed open discussion and debate about faith. To be clear, I don’t think she knows exactly what she’s looking for. And neither do I - I’m here to learn.

she chose to read Dostoyevsky on her own. I don’t know how much she got out of it— I’m reading it now and will discuss it with her. She really enjoyed Great Divorce and we had great discussions about it- she is eager to read more CSLewis.
 

she didn’t really click with A Wrinkle in Time series but I didn’t know about the Austin’s series. I will look at it. 

I'd go with maybe something by someone who takes a different take on the faith, like this one https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/inspired-rachel-held-evans/1127455162. 

[KungFuPanda]

18 hours ago, WTM said:

She didn’t ask for books per se. She said she wanted to explore why people chose not to be Christians. When asked if she wanted to go to youth camp this summer, she said no- that she’d prefer  a camp that fostered / allowed open discussion and debate about faith. To be clear, I don’t think she knows exactly what she’s looking for. And neither do I - I’m here to learn.

she chose to read Dostoyevsky on her own. I don’t know how much she got out of it— I’m reading it now and will discuss it with her. She really enjoyed Great Divorce and we had great discussions about it- she is eager to read more CSLewis.
 

she didn’t really click with A Wrinkle in Time series but I didn’t know about the Austin’s series. I will look at it. 

Maybe she just needs to study the origin stories of other religions. There are other, and older, virgin birth religions. Most people “choose” a religion that is practiced in their home or neighborhood. Usually, it’s not about choice, but early training and geography. Maybe she could study why “the one true God,” in anyone’s view, is always a fairly easy commute from your home.  Maybe the question is “Why would people choose Christianity if they don’t have a community connection to this religion?” 
It’ll be a fascinating self-study for her. She may even be able to take or audit a World Religions class at your local CC. I’ll bet there are YouTube channels and podcasts in the topic that would interest her. I’ve been enjoying the Leaving Eden podcast. The host is Christian and her producer is Jewish. It’s interesting. He asks a lot of questions you might not think to ask if you are raised in a fundamentalist community. Some things you don’t necessarily think to question without an outsider’s perspective. 

[ScoutTN]

A short read, written for high school students:

Every Thought Captive by Richard Pratt. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

The premise of your child's question is wrong, and assumes one can choose to believe (in a God/s and/or a particular faith). 

Belief/faith is not really a thing one chooses, imo. In that way, it is very different from choosing how one behaves, for example. 

I would want to dig into the biases underlying the question - why does she think that people 'choose' not to be Christian? Does thinking of it as an active choice allow her to maintain a view of non Christians as other? 

I'd also use it as an exercise in imaginative empathy - imagine if she were born, not in an American Christian family, but in a (for example) Indonesian Muslim family? How would her question be different? How would it be the same? 

Finally, here are some simple answers to the question. 

Some people aren't Christian because they are Hindu/Muslim/Buddhist etc. 

Why? 

Because that's either the faith they grew up with or find they believe in as adults. 

Some people aren't Christian because they don't believe in God. 

Why? 

They just don't, in the same way you don't believe in Zeus and Athena. Sometimes it's because they find the arguments for a God unconvincing, sometimes it's because they were raised without religion and are happy to continue that way.

I'd point out that ethics are not exclusive to Christians, and that a person can be ethical regardless of faith. The underlying question is 'why are others different?' which is a great invitation to emphasise our common humanity. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

They just don't, in the same way you don't believe in Zeus and Athena. Sometimes it's because they find the arguments for a God unconvincing, sometimes it's because they were raised without religion and are happy to continue that way.

On a semi-tangent… my daughters, raised outside of religion, were first exposed to details of religions in SOTW and related readings, and quickly declared themselves polytheists. It was the first thing they knew anything about, and we felt no need to “correct” them, so that’s just how it was for a while! I happened to find it super cute.  They changed their minds as they learned more.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

On a semi-tangent… my daughters, raised outside of religion, were first exposed to details of religions in SOTW and related readings, and quickly declared themselves polytheists. It was the first thing they knew anything about, and we felt no need to “correct” them, so that’s just how it was for a while! I happened to find it super cute.  They changed their minds as they learned more.

That's very cute! 

[Ceilingfan]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

for me, I see it as the blind men and the elephant. All contain truth in some way, none are complete truth. 

I'd go with maybe something by someone who takes a different take on the faith, like this one https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/inspired-rachel-held-evans/1127455162. 

Sire, but lots of adherents of lots of faiths (and I'd argue the source text of lots of faiths) claim to describe the entire elephant, and their description of the elephant precludes other descriptions of the elephant. Jews who await the Messiah and Christians who believe there's no way to heaven except through Jesus are describing mutually exclusive elephants.

It can get illuminating to see the similarities and differences in the various descriptions of the elephant, but at least for me it makes adherence to any one description pretty illogical.

[livetoread]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:18 PM, WTM said:

We feel that it's healthy to examine all sides if she is interested and ready, and that if the faith is true, God will speak to her and draw her in.

This was not my experience when I examined my faith and ended up a nonbeliever. It's also not the experience of many former believers.  The hiddenness of God during times of faith struggle is a known problem, and I just want to gently caution you that it simply isn't true that those who ask for help from God in maintaining faith and who want to be drawn in can be assured of anything in return.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, livetoread said:

This was not my experience when I examined my faith and ended up a nonbeliever. It's also not the experience of many former believers.  The hiddenness of God during times of faith struggle is a known problem, and I just want to gently caution you that it simply isn't true that those who ask for help from God in maintaining faith and who want to be drawn in can be assured of anything in return.

I completely agree. I prayed the so-called Centurion’s prayer many times (“Help my unbelief”) but it did not help. I was in a lot of psychological misery until I just decided that it seems mostly or wholly untrue and there is no Being who is going to come to my aid or help me with anything. It was rather freeing to draw that conclusion, actually. 

[livetoread]

32 minutes ago, Quill said:

I completely agree. I prayed the so-called Centurion’s prayer many times (“Help my unbelief”) but it did not help. I was in a lot of psychological misery until I just decided that it seems mostly or wholly untrue and there is no Being who is going to come to my aid or help me with anything. It was rather freeing to draw that conclusion, actually. 

I finally accepted that I was no longer a believer after a long time and lots of effort put towards fighting that conclusion. I gave myself permission to stop trying on my birthday, and it was a lovely present to myself. That was about ten years ago - no regrets.

OP, I say this not to derail the thread but to ask you to please listen to your daughter if she does end up walking away and tells you she tried. The blame that loved ones put on their "lost" relatives is unpleasant for all concerned. Many people examine their faith and come out the other end with a stronger faith, but many don't, and the theology that says God wouldn't let someone easily slip through his fingers - that it has to be the person rejecting God and not God shrugging in indifference (or not existing at all) - leads to relationship complications.

Some believing parents can reconcile this by accepting that they don't know God's plan and maybe God is distancing from their child for unknown but valid reasons. Some don't try and figure it out but just love their kid and figure it's beyond their pay grade. But pressure to keep believing (because it has to be the kid's fault that they don't) is counter productive and painful and puts a strain on your relationship. Been there done that as both a believing parent of a nonbelieving child and a nonbelieving child of believing parents.

Edited April 13, 2022 by livetoread

[Faith-manor]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:26 AM, Quill said:

I just want to say one other thing. I have found that a pretty significant majority of Christians find it pretty unbearable for their kid or someone they love to question their beliefs. I don’t know exactly why that is, but I have had the experience before of someone saying, “Ask me your questions; it’s okay and I won’t judge you.” But then when I say something like, “Why is atonement necessary in the first place? Why would God create a system that makes people fundamentally wrong-headed unless innocent blood is shed to ‘apply’ to them?” The person becomes much less comfortable. It may be that they went through a six-week course with their church and they memorized all the standard “answers”, but faced with a real question of why does the system work this way, they not only have no good answer but, IME, they suddenly look like they really haven’t given it much thought at all. 
 

I think when it comes to kids questioning the faith of the parents, it’s often too close for comfort. 

In my experience, it is because questioning instead of 100% instant loyalty to whatever theological and lifestyle stance the parent believes is considered a sin and these folks fervently believe in eternal torture of a human like body that can feel pain and agony forever. This is what they believe so their fear overrides their judgement. To add to that injury, the ones that I know who believe it the most firey, also belong to churches that believe if your child reaches adulthood and is still questioning or has arrived at the conclusion they do not believe or believe a different dogma, they are to be shunned by the family, excommunicates, so the wayward person cannot be a bad influence in the church community. This is so painful to parents to even consider that they will often double down on the child.

We have former friends whose adult daughter came out as lesbian her senior year of college. This young woman was practically family to us having grown up best friends with our sons, mentored and tutored by our daughter, and constantly with us, sometimes vacationing with us. We love her! Her parents have excommunicated her based on advice from the pastor and deacons, Wesleyan denomination, and we were told to never contact them ever again because we support her, and they know it. The pain this young woman has feels is just mind boggling.

At first I was really hurt by their pronouncements, then heart broken, then angry, and then realized they are only following their faith to its logical outcome. Their faith dictates that anyone who does not follow the dictates of the church are to be "cast out as hard hearted", considered evil, and a danger to others whose souls will also be condemned if they support the person. They are protecting other souls. They are simply putting their faith into action even when it causes tremendous pain and suffering. I view them now with great pity, and consider them a bit hard hearted themselves to keep clinging to dogma that is so harmful and rips families apart. That church holds a hell house style VBS for children 3-11 each year. In my mind, totally gross and abusive! But in their minds, trying to save children from an eternity of torture and agony. I can't exactly blame them for doing it.

OP, I don't have much to offer. As a deconverted person, I can say there is a lot of trauma involved when Christians use heavy handed tactics to prevent questioning or try to dogma a person back into the faith. Just try to be as gracious and open-minded and loving as you can be. Something you could consider doing together is a comparative religions course. It is really very interesting and enlightening. Even when people choose to remain in their faith it is always good to have a better understanding of other faiths. I would also respect her privacy and not tell others on your faith community that she has questions.

[Faith-manor]

12 hours ago, livetoread said:

This was not my experience when I examined my faith and ended up a nonbeliever. It's also not the experience of many former believers.  The hiddenness of God during times of faith struggle is a known problem, and I just want to gently caution you that it simply isn't true that those who ask for help from God in maintaining faith and who want to be drawn in can be assured of anything in return.

Thank you for saying this. I was unable to.think of a good way of expressing it.

[maize]

On 4/10/2022 at 7:18 PM, WTM said:

 

I like Simply Jesus by N. T. Wright. He's an Anglican scholar, but the book is pretty basic "this is Jesus as presented in the New Testament" without a particular denomination focus.

[Pam in CT]

I'm not Christian, and other pp have already made each of these points more cogently, but. Before even attempting to start a conversation or booklist with your daughter, I'd really urge that you reconsider several of what seem to be your own starting points

1. "Both sides" reading list - neither individual spiritual groundedness, nor formal faith affiliation within a tradition or denomination, have just "two" settings, like an on/off switch
2. why some folks "choose not to be Christian" - I mean, to begin with, lots of folks are born into and raised within some other tradition, or no tradition, and just stay there, without ever seriously considering departing from where they happened to land by birth lottery. But as plenty of pp have already stated, others find that Christianity -- with its quite high emphasis on belief -- is not something that one can "choose," like an ice cream flavor. I can choose to *act* a certain way; but I truly can't choose to *believe* in something I... don't believe. Literally: it's not an option. Many other traditions are far less focused on belief (leaning more into various forms of "good" and/or "aligned" and/or "divinely sanctioned" conduct ; and for many people (myself included) that way of thinking about the great cosmic questions is a better fit to how my brain is wired whether I wish it were so or not.
3. Related to "belief" but not quite the same: Christianity is extremely focused on what happens after death.  Not all faith traditions are; and for some people, concern with What Happens Next isn't the main event nor the reason to attach (or not) to a tradition or community.
4. Also related to "belief" but not quite the same: Christianity's focus on what happens after death is inextricably tied to the concepts of sin and salvation from those sins... and some people -- even people who do "believe" in a theistic concept of something-like-god -- don't "believe" in the specifically Christian constructs of sin and salvation. Again: other faith traditions, even theistic traditions including Judaism, don't "do" sin, and certainly don't "do" salvation, analogously to how Christianity does. So another "fit" issue.

 

Rosie said it shorter.

On 4/11/2022 at 1:54 AM, Rosie_0801 said:

Some people feel the beauty of Christianity and some people don't.
Some people don't choose not to be Christians, it just isn't a viable option for them.
Some people don't believe in sin, so there's nothing to be saved from.
Some people don't operate on a good v evil paradigm.

If I were you, I'd leave her to do her own exploring and keep your ears open so you know where her head is at.

Honestly: she'll do her own exploring and head off in her own directions whether you want her to or not. How many people on these boards were raised one way and eventually landed in a different spiritual place?  The journey is personal.

 

re exploration of world religion

On 4/11/2022 at 10:07 AM, elegantlion said:

disclaimer:  I am not a practicing Christian

From an intellectual perspective, I have enjoyed learning how Christianity fits into the scope of world religions. So, you might consider a worlds religion course. I would add the caveat that, imo, this needs to be taught from practioners in the religion, not solely the Christian view of Islam, Judaism, etc. 

Two books that I have enjoyed are: 

The All-of-a-Kind-Family series by Sydney Taylor. I don't know if she'd consider herself too old to read these, but I found them very enlightening. They're about a Jewish family at the turn of the 20th century. I wrote to this author in elementary school and she sent me a handwritten reply. I wrote again many years later (pre-Internet) not knowing she had passed away. Her husband replied, send me a personal photo of her. I keep that letter and photo with my important papers.

and  Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh. It's very edifying of Christianity. It's been a while since I've read it. Obviously would preview for your family's needs. 

Second this: I did this as I spiraled around to my own landing point; and all three of my kids did some version as well. The bolded is CRITICAL.  I'm not a reliable source of information about what Islam is, and no Christian is a reliable source of information about what Judaism is.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 2:52 PM, Laura Corin said:

You might find this old thread useful, not as material for your child, but just to provide clues to other modes of thought.

I personally haven't had an impulse to spirituality since early childhood, so I have no experience of questioning faith.
   

 

THANK YOU!  Those threads were so much fun and I totally forgot about them. There's a whole series of 'em, newcomers since 2013.

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm mostly a non-believer now too and I agree that it was very freeing to give it up. I've heard so many believers claim that it's sad to lose your faith. I don't think they realize how the process works for most people. It's also incredibly manipulative. If you pray enough, God will give you faith so if you don't have faith, you didn't pray hard enough. 

 

I didn't find it sad to give up my beliefs and I wasn't anywhere near a conservative Christian so it wasn't freeing either. I suppose I found it - enlightening? - I don't know. It was more like "Huh. All these years I never really looked at (my faith) this way." I explored other faiths before letting go then went with the oft cited by atheists realization that they can't all be right but they can all be wrong. 

I also didn't fight it or pray that I'd keep my faith. I examined everything rationally. 

 

3 hours ago, livetoread said:

 

OP, I say this not to derail the thread but to ask you to please listen to your daughter if she does end up walking away and tells you she tried. The blame that loved ones put on their "lost" relatives is unpleasant for all concerned. Many people examine their faith and come out the other end with a stronger faith, but many don't, and the theology that says God wouldn't let someone easily slip through his fingers - that it has to be the person rejecting God and not God shrugging in indifference (or not existing at all) - leads to relationship complications.

 

Yes to this. You can't make yourself believe anymore than you can make yourself not believe. Where ever your dd ends up know that it wasn't a choice she consciously made.