In general, do you support unions?

[Colleen]

This is a simple one ~ or I'm going to make it simple, anyway, for the purposes of the poll. Yes, I know there are all manner of unions. And yes, I know circumstances vary. And yes, I know how much we independent-minded folk like to say say "other" or "neither" and explain ourselves.:D But let's go the no frills route and see if the folks here, in general, support unions ~ or not.

[JoyfulMama]

Spent the last Labor Day in Omaha - they have a great parade highlighting all the unions in the area. I thought it was a great way to celebrate the day. DH was glad he didn't go with us - he's a supervisor (non-union) in a union shop. He didn't want to look like he was supporting the union :tongue_smilie:

[tibbyl]

Yes, I support collective bargaining in general while recognizing that power of any kind will always support at least some corruption and inefficiency. Solidarity is one of few offsets to corporate greed. However, human nature being what it is, those who own the capital will gravitate toward the most desperate labor pools who usually are the most easily exploited. Thus, for now, unions have virtually become irrelevant in U.S. despite having been primarily responsible for passage of many fair and safe labor laws.

Edited December 13, 2008 by tibbyl

[tibbyl]

Oops, sorry, Colleen, I explained myself ater I took your poll but before I read your original post about not explaining oneself.

[Amy loves Bud]

I've had pretty strong opinions about unions ever since I was called a "scab" when I was 9 years old. My opinion hasn't become any more favorable since that day.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Amy loves Bud
late night grammar

[Colleen]

unions have virtually become irrelevant in U.S.

 

I find it interesting that you'd say that since it's not my perception.

 

Oops, sorry, Colleen, I explained myself ater I took your poll but before I read your original post about not explaining oneself.

 

Oh, I wasn't trying to discourage people from explaining their vote. So sorry I gave that impression! I was saying that I'm not offering a "other" polling option, since so often, people will opt for that and explain why they can't go with the primary options. In this case, I was interested in seeing a Yes/No breakdown, though.

 

Btw, your sig line makes me smile.:D

[AnnetteB]

I cried years ago when dh had to join the retail clerks union. I was quite happy when he was promoted to management and could leave the union. My father was in IATSE for many years and even negotiated on the union's behalf, but even he didn't trust the union. Dd had to join the city union when she worked at the library, but she could designate her dues going to a charity. I resented all their mailings and phone calls before every election trying to influence her vote :glare:

[Anne]

That's the thing I hate about unions - all the money they spend on politics. I'm fine with union representation between me and the company I work with - the problem for me is that most unions spend an awful lot of money (MY money) on politics, contributing to the campaigns of people I don't support and supporting causes that I definitely don't support.

 

I really resent being forced to pay for this (which has NOTHING to do with the job at hand).

 

Anne

[pqr]

One of the reasons the auto makers are in their current state is the Unions.

[pqr]

Sorry double post

[sgilli3]

A simple reply - No.

[LaxMom]

No, I don't. And I'm the wife of a union president.

 

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

[Jenny in Atl]

No, I don't. And I'm the wife of a union president.

 

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

 

:iagree:

 

Many have become as bad as the greed they were created to fight.

[Tabrett]

I think unions were very needed when they were first established, but now they are not needed. You should never have to join a union to work at a company. I joined the teachers union when I taught school as legal "insurance". I HATED that the teachers union was a democratic supporter. I was republican, but my union dues supported Democrats. Unions should not be political party specific!!!!

 

My dh thought about working for UPS many year ago. At the time the pay per hour was great until you took out the union dues.:tongue_smilie: Then it was no better than any other hourly waged job he was going for. If you weren't "required" to join the union UPS would have been great. What's the point of higher wages if it all goes to required union dues? Looks to me like unions are trying to keep their selves alive at any cost?

[jacqui in mo]

more bullies than genuine workplace reformers?

 

It's obvious to me from our history studies that unions have been a necessary part of turning around abysmal working conditions that arose during the industrial revolution in mines and factories. Who could argue that coal mines were horrible places to work. And workers were treated extremely poorly & even heartlessly beaten or killed when they tried to protest. Unions & government did well to end that era.

 

Now in our times it seems the unions, or especially union bosses are just as greedy as any corporation & using tired, worn out rhetoric & tactics to pit workers against their companies. My dh works for a telecommunications company which has the CWA union. Everything is hunky dorky with the union workers & the company until the next contract is due. Then the "company is unfair" "we're mad as He#", "we're going on strike" talk starts rolling. Then they do strike & put non union workers & families like ours through turmoil with extra long working hours (without overtime pay!) trying to cover for them. Then when the contract is negotiated, even when they don't get what they want, whether it's a significant improvement or not in their minds, then everything is all loyalty & good will again.

 

Then we have ridiculous union rules that such & such job can't be performed unless done by a union person. One talk show host I listen to can't turn on his own microphone. It has to be a union person to do so.

 

What I want to say is: Working Conditions are really, really good for the most part in the U.S. but unions keep agitating for wages and benefits beyond what companies can bear. Unions have cornered corporations into paying retirees full salaries for not working. I've heard some laid off workers still get paid nearly their full salary & when offered jobs in another part of the country with the company, they do not have to accept the job, but still get paid. For Doing Nothing. It's no wonder the automakers are about to drown. (I know unions aren't the whole cause, but I believe they are a very large part).

 

And don't even get me started on the over the top political involvement they have.

 

And now I'm worried about the Employee Free Choice Act that may be coming our way. With its non secret ballots people may be pressured to join unions when they don't really want to. It seems like another bullying tactic.

 

Okay, maybe I'm on more of a soapbox than anything else, but I do wonder when things changed as I originally asked.

Jacqui

[MgoBlue]

Unions are coming full circle. I grew up in Detroit and was very aware of the awful stuff that happened before unions. The unions in the 70's got way too much. It's coming full circle. Unions are meant to protect people. The big guys at the top get ungodly amounts of $ in bonuses, etc. It's insane...yet no one complains about that. People are jealous of union benefits. They pay the unions...every week. It's a mixed bag.

 

My husband is not a union employee..nor am I. There are a lot of misconceptions about things. American car companies cannot compete with chinese companies where the employees are making literally dollars/day. People don't care to buy american. I had a datsun b210...tiny japanese car..in college & had so much trouble with that I said I'd NEVER buy foreign again. The cost of replacement parts was exorbaniant! Yet people are sacrificing their ethics and buying hynduais. Hey...if you only have so much $ to go around...I understand...just that ME__I'd rather drive a clunker than buy foreign. Maybe because I was raised in the motor city. If the big three are gone...we will have not so many choices. Less competition & basic economics...less competition means higher prices!

Sorry for the rant & ramblings.

 

edit: the auto makers/union have agreed to discontinue the practice of paying their employees 95% of their wages when they're laid off.

Edited December 13, 2008 by MgoBlue
forgot a point...

[Soph the vet]

I think unions were very needed when they were first established, but now they are not needed. You should never have to join a union to work at a company. I joined the teachers union when I taught school as legal "insurance". I HATED that the teachers union was a democratic supporter. I was republican, but my union dues supported Democrats. Unions should not be political party specific!!!!

 

 

 

:iagree:wholeheartedly!

[Apiphobic]

I voted and read the other responses. You know what popped into my head when I read some of the responses? HSLDA.

[FO4UR]

We live in a right to work state, and my dh is not union but works with others who are union. The union, in his case, is a safety net for people who don't do their job and steal from the co.:glare: Union workers are UNfireable, and a great many take advantage of it, and their co-workers who refuse to be a part of the union!

 

btw- My dh's paycheck would be larger, benefits better if it were not for the union. The co. pays for so many union gatherings and HOURS UPON HOURS of payroll for people who DON"T DO THEIR J.O.B.!!! It's not just the auto-industry that is being strangled by the unions.

 

At the same time, I recognize that many of the safety regulations that protect him probably started with a union...YEARS ago. I agree that unions served a vital purpose, but they are not what they used to be and need to be put in check!

 

I'm not even touching the topic of unions and the dem. party:glare:

[Karenciavo]

I voted and read the other responses. You know what popped into my head when I read some of the responses? HSLDA.

 

There may be some similarities, but there are also marked differences. And just like workers who refuse to join unions (e.g. me when I work for the postal service), those who don't join HSLDA (also me) receive the benefit of the good they do. Reminds me of people who don't immunize their children, but receive the benefit of herd immunization.

[pqr]

The big guys at the top get ungodly amounts of $ in bonuses, etc. It's insane...yet no one complains about that.

 

 

I think you might be wrong on this one, a quick google search will finds hundreds of stories of people complaining loudly about excessive benefits for CEOs et al.

[cin]

No, I don't. And I'm the wife of a union president.

 

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

 

 

:iagree: There was a time when they were needed. But now we have laws that protect workers. You can't work if your under a certain age. Overtime pay, limited number of hours per week for certain jobs and ages, etc. I do believe that they had a place many many years ago. But now, I think they do more harm than good.

 

Recently the teachers went on strike in a local district. This was one of the districts that teachers are clamoring to get into. So what was so bad that they had to go on strike? Jeez. Your in the best district in our area; pay/benefits/hours are SUPERB. (I have a friend who works in teh district, as a teacher, and she wasn't even sure what the sticking points were...they were that trivial!)

 

I think that there are plenty of jobs out there. The market is competetive enough that we don't need a union to get us something. We can just go to a better employer. And beleive me, the market is (or at least WAS) cometetive enough that if you are a good worker, you can pretty much find what you want without having a union.

 

About the auto industry....The union has gotten them into this mess. The avg pay is $30 MORE an hour than toyota. um....how many employees are there? That's a BOATLOAD of money. They do have exceptional benefits, but what good will that do them if the company goes under????

 

jmho :D

[cin]

Forgot to add, my uncles and my dad were in unions, so I dont't voice my opinion much around family:001_huh: BUT, I do beleive they had their place. They were all from Appalachia, and didn't have even a high school education. It would have been very easy to take advantage of them. They also all worked heavy labor/machinery jobs. And had a work ethic and respect for authority that would have caused them to work themselves to death. At the time, they NEEDED someone to watch out for them, give them there breaks, make sure they got their rest. And make sure they got fair pay. But things are sooo much different now....

[Murphy101]

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

 

 

This is my view.

It's not that I don't support the concept of a union, it's that unions don't do what they are truely intended to do anymore.

 

I don't think anyone should ever be required to join a union or give to a union.

 

If the union is truely neccessary and doing what it should, they shouldn't have to force people to join it.

[Jennifer3141]

I support anyone's right to form a group of peers for support, so yes. Do I think the UAW has gotten out of control on some things? Of course. But do I think our current president also got out of control on MANY issues? Duh, yes. lol

 

It's human nature to screw up, I suppose. It seems to be a universal attribute.

 

Jen

[CactusPair]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

And I'd crawl on my hands and knees across America rather than buy a foreign vehicle. Or any gas-guzzling, so-behind-the-times SUV for that matter. These 2 issues have played a big part in the collapse of the auto industry. The UAW isn't blameless, but I'm not pointing the finger at them for the downfall of the industry.

 

And I wonder if the Walmart employee would have been trampled to death on black Friday had the workers been unionized and provided with appropriate safety measures and training....

[JoyfulMama]

My dh was allowed to opt out of the contribution to the political party - it was not required that he financial support a party he didn't belong to.

[Audrey]

...didn't have even a high school education. It would have been very easy to take advantage of them. They also all worked heavy labor/machinery jobs. And had a work ethic and respect for authority that would have caused them to work themselves to death. At the time, they NEEDED someone to watch out for them, give them there breaks, make sure they got their rest. And make sure they got fair pay. But things are sooo much different now....

 

 

I support unions, in general, because I don't believe things are THAT much different now. The kinds of people you describe above are still out there and still need protection. The faces may have changed, but the exploitation hasn't. Laws have come into place that provide some worker protection, but many of them are not in synch with modern economics. The minimum wage laws are a joke, IMNSHO. There are very, very few places in your country or mine where a person can reasonably support a family on full-time minimum wage.

 

So, while I find the tactics and practices of *some* unions undesirable, I still support unions, in general.

[AnnetteB]

We've been home educating since before HSLDA started, so I don't feel that I need to join or that they protect me without my support or gratitiude. We have always followed the state laws where we live, first in California as a private school (that isn't how it is done now) and here in Oregon with notifications and testing as required. We have always been friendly with our neighbors and had no reason to fear being turned in or accused of delinquency. I wouldn't compare HSLDA to unions, though.

 

When my dad was an elected officer in IATSE there was an attempted hired hit against one of his friends (the disgruntled union guy "hired" an undercover policeman) and my father's car was shot during a meeting. The power struggles within unions frighten me.

[LizzyBee]

I can't answer a simple yes or no. I think they fulfill an important role. I'm sure no-one wants to go back to the days when employers had all the power and could treat workers like dogs with no repercussions. OTOH, some unions are very corrupt and hold too much power. Some unions are more involved in politics and serving their own interests than looking out for employees' well-being.

[Mama Lynx]

 

I find it interesting that you'd say that since it's not my perception.

 

 

Mine either.

 

In general, no. I do not support them.

[camibami]

I don't blindly support *all* unions, across the board, and their leadership and political manuevering. But in general, to boil it down, yes, I support unions. I will drive far out of my way in order to not cross a picket line if there is a strike at a grocery store.

[LBC]

I voted "no".

 

I grew up with a father who was in management in a unionized grocery store. He was the only person in the store who was not in the union. When I turned 16, I got a job with the same grocery chain, but at a different store (yup, it was nepotism). At 16, my starting wage was $10.18 per hour plus benefits. Keep in mind that this was 27 years ago (1981). I worked there, on and off, for 11 years. During this time I saw that most people hated what they were doing, but couldn't leave because they could never make that kind of money doing something else. I also saw that in general, people had very little motivation to excel, since raises were based on how much time you had worked, not on performance.

 

My dh had been traveling and doing short term missions trips when I met him, so when we got married he decided to become an electrical apprentice. In 1991 he started working for a company that wasn't union. His starting wage, at the age of 27, was $7.00 per hour (min. wage at the time). When he became a second year apprentice, he was to get a raise. Unfortunately, he couldn't get in to do his first year of schooling until he was working for two years, which meant that he made $7.00 per hour for two years. Thankfully, we had no children, and I was able to work. Things were pretty tight financially when I had our first two children and was no longer working, but we managed to get through it. Dh stayed with that same company for 16 years, getting small raises every once in a while, no benefits at all, bonuses came at the whim of his employer, and had little to do with company profits or employee performance. Dh finally left and started his own company two years ago. He is now able to earn about 300% more than he earned as an employee (when he left he was the top payed employee in the company). He is committed to treating his employees well. He gives them benefits, gifts, encouragement, and other good things that a union might demand. He has a great relationship with his employees. This year the guys all pitched in and bought him some sort of fancy HD/DVR thing that cost them over $500, so I know they really appreciate him.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unions, which are designed to help employees, can sometimes hold them back. Being in a non-union work environment can create some hardships, but those difficulties can be our best teachers, and give us the little push we need to step out and take risks.

 

I qualify this by saying that it is never okay for employees to be mistreated the way they were before unions came in. I'm not familiar with the labor laws in the US, but here in Canada there are laws to protect employees, making the original need for unions less of an issue.

 

Lori

[Colleen]

Thanks for voting, and for replying; I'm enjoying hearing your thoughts. My own stance was expressed well with this comment:

 

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

 

Generally speaking, I strongly oppose unions ~ proof positive that I would never align myself with any one political party.;) I find, when I've engaged in this discussion with my parents & others, that some people seem to support unions based primarily on what I consider an "old school" mentality. In the case of my father, for example, he hails from a blue collar, Ohio area where unions are (were, imo) the good guy, the protector. Such was the time and place. I do believe unions served a good purpose but I can't support their existence in their current state.

[hornblower]

I voted and read the other responses. You know what popped into my head when I read some of the responses? HSLDA.

 

:D

You are SO right on!

[klmama]

I don't think they are particularly helpful anymore, at least in the US. In union shops lousy workers have to do something truly awful to be removed from their jobs. Great workers can't be given pay increases based on performance, as they get the same percentage increase as the workers around them who only do the bare minimum. Better employees can't be placed in the jobs they are most suited for if someone with more seniority wants them.

 

I toured an auto plant last year. The tour guide was praising the multi-million dollar robots that did the most dangerous work, as well as some of the other work. His comment that stuck with me: "We can place them according to their abilities. Of course, we can't do that with people." Believe me, that comment didn't make me want to purchase one of their cars!

[hornblower]

There are certain aspects of big unions which do give me some concerns but in general I do support unions. I was shop steward for a while when I worked for the fed gov......

 

Unions have in some ways become derailed but I am immensely supportive of the right to strike. Whenever I see picket lines, I'm always one of the honking cars, waving out the window. The right for workers to stand up to an employer is incredibly important.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

:iagree:

 

Many have become as bad as the greed they were created to fight.

 

:iagree: I'll just add my dittos here.

 

From speaking with several people who work at local mills, the unions seem to have quite a bit of money to spend on ridiculous things, and many workers that aren't worth their hire stay in jobs while good workers are unemployed.

 

The fact that joining a union and paying dues is mandatory in many instances bothers me. Workers should have the freedom to opt out.

[Maria from IN]

My respect for unions ended when my son was a baby and my then husband worked as management in a bike factory. There was some sort of dispute between the union workers and the management, and during a not-so-veiled threat, one worker looked at my husband and said, "By the way, that's a good-looking boy you have there...hope nothing ever happens to him." The bike plant was 50 miles away from our house.

 

Then there was the time I got yanked out of college because my dad's AT&T contract was up and there was talk of strike--they didn't strike, but I had to officially quit school by a certain date so my parents wouldn't be stuck paying tuition while trying to get through it in case it happened.

 

I read somewhere recently that the average Detroit autoworker makes $56,000 a year. After busting my brain getting a Masters degree I still won't see that in a year--and I have to go $70,000 in debt just to do that!

 

So no--my great-grandfather was nearly beaten to death for helping organize a union at his workplace 100 or so years ago, when unions were desperately needed--but no more. They've simply gone too far.

[Peek a Boo]

I support what unions were intended to accomplish - fair working conditions, worker safety, living wages. In some instances, unions still accomplish these things. But no, generally speaking, I do not support the existence, politics, or membership tactics of unions in our current age.

 

Yup. and I think i can ditto Colleen on this one :)

[joannqn]

The reasons for my no vote (and there are many) have been covered by others who posted before me.

[LBC]

My respect for unions ended when my son was a baby and my then husband worked as management in a bike factory. There was some sort of dispute between the union workers and the management, and during a not-so-veiled threat, one worker looked at my husband and said, "By the way, that's a good-looking boy you have there...hope nothing ever happens to him." The bike plant was 50 miles away from our house.

 

 

 

Yikes! That's insane behavior. My father, a unionized grocery store manager, had an incident where he found some sort of effigy of himself with a large butcher knife stuck in it sitting in the meat department display cooler. Disturbing.

 

Lori

[Maria from IN]

Yikes! That's insane behavior. My father, a unionized grocery store manager, had an incident where he found some sort of effigy of himself with a large butcher knife stuck in it sitting in the meat department display cooler. Disturbing.

 

Lori

 

Tell me about it! Fortunately we lived in a small town where everyone knew everyone else, and the police promised to drive by our house more often over the next several days...I had to stay home from work and keep the baby out of daycare in case they followed or something...

 

That's awful what happened to your dad! Unions are nothing more to me than gangs now...

[Elaine]

Yes, I do.

 

My husband is in a union and because of that makes a very good salary. When we lived in North Carolina, he was working as a non-union lineman making $17/hour. He worked long hours with no overtime compensation. That is pathetic! Here in NJ he makes almost triple that. Linemen have one of the most dangerous jobs out there and go through rigorous training to learn their trade and to not compensate someone amply for that is ridiculous.

 

So, yes, I support unions.

[Daisy]

In general, yes, but DH is part of a union and I see, firsthand, the benefits to our family.

 

I absolutely believe that the unions should stay out of politics. They should be for the purpose of collective bargaining and NOTHING else.

[I talk to the trees]

Unions=legalized mafia.

 

When dh and I were *squeaking* by on grad assistantships just after dd was born, he took a job playing in a musical. He wasn't informed until after the performances that he would have to join the musicians' union. We thought it would be a way for him to earn a little extra so that we didn't have to borrow so much from family to keep our expenses covered. The dues ended up costing us WAY more than what he made, and he was NEVER offered another playing job. There was also some MAJOR bullying involved. I was terrified that physical harm would come to us or dd (then 6 months old.) Unions are the epitome of evil.

 

-Robin

[3lilreds in NC]

There is a lot I would like to say on this subject, but I'm not sure I can say it without being inflammatory - so I will just say no, I don't support unions. My opinion is mainly colored by exposure to the UAW. I think their demands over the years have gotten to the point of ridiculous.

[Haiku]

Yes. Corporations hold a lot of power, and before we had unions, they shamelessly abused their workers. Organizing is the best way to ensure fair treatment at the hands of corporations that are more concerned with the financial bottom line than with ensuring fair labor standards.

 

That doesn't mean that I approve of everything our current unions do. But I wholeheartedly support the right to organize.

 

Tara

[Peek a Boo]

Yes. Corporations hold a lot of power, and before we had unions, they shamelessly abused their workers. Organizing is the best way to ensure fair treatment at the hands of corporations that are more concerned with the financial bottom line than with ensuring fair labor standards.

 

not all organizations abused their powers, and not all unions abuse theirs.

 

and now some unions are as bad as the corporations might have been. And sometimes firing employees before they can form an official union is the only way for corporations to keep another bully from operating in their midst.

 

It comes full circle ;)

 

i don't mind workers striking and picketing, but i also support a company's right to fire them all and hire new employees.

[Colleen]

Yes. Corporations hold a lot of power, and before we had unions, they shamelessly abused their workers. Organizing is the best way to ensure fair treatment at the hands of corporations that are more concerned with the financial bottom line than with ensuring fair labor standards.

 

It's one way, but is it the best way? And what should that organizing look like? Should membership be required ~ or is forced unionization coercion? Should unions focus on obtaining fair labor standards, or go beyond that to try and influence the political positions of their membership? Who decides what constitutes "fair labor standards"? Rhetorical questions, but ones worth considering, imo. (And I'm not saying you haven't considered them, just musing in response to your post.:))

 

I wholeheartedly support the right to organize.

 

I do, too. I support the right to organize, and the right to opt out of such organization. I don't support bullying, on the part of management or labor, and I don't support locking in wages such that the free market is inhibited.