Do you let people lie to you? Update sort of

[Catwoman]

47 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

It bothers me because it's inappropriate.  The context of it, within this thread, is inappropriate.  Scarlett thinking she has the right to treat her 21yo like a 12yo is inappropriate.  All of us, at 21 years old, would have found the discussion of parents having authority over us beyond a social degree inappropriate.

The rallying of treating a 21yo in this manner and continuing to push the idea that they're not adults, is, yes, inappropriate.  Someone needed to say it.  It's not parenting anymore.  The relationship has shifted to recognize the legal status someone has. If a person can't do this, then it might help them to get therapy to deal with their issues of wanting an adult to remain a child.

But so what if you think it’s inappropriate? You appear to be vastly outnumbered here, so have you ever considered that perhaps you have some personal sensitivity to the term, where others do not?

I mean, it’s perfectly fine if you never use that term when referring to your own adult children, but that doesn’t give you to the right to tell other people how they can refer to their own kids.

I’m genuinely curious – – how do you refer to your own adult children when you speak about them?

[footballmom]

With what’s been shared about this situation, it sounds like this young man is not proud of his actions / choices and is carrying shame and knows the truth + your judgement will bring more shame.  
 

If I cared about the person and wanted to preserve our relationship, I would try to remove the barriers to honesty - I would not ask set up questions to test their honesty about choices that he knows are disapproved of.  People lie for a lot of reasons, but this situation sounds like shame and wanting to not be faced with emotions or consequences of choices they get to make.  You get to set conditions to what is acceptable in your home.  

[annandatje]

Generally people lie to avoid punishment or other negative consequences, to avoid being embarrassed, to keep their privacy and to portray themselves as more skilled and talented than they truly are.  Once you determine *why* this person is lying to you, you will be better equipped to handle it.  

The fastest and easiest solution is probably to discontinue asking the type of questions that result in a lie.  

Since the liar in question is an adult, you could insist the liar move out, especially if you are not interested in a long term relationship with him or her.  Have not read entire thread but I can't imagine a scenario where I would ask a roommate, including an adult child, where they had been and what they did unless it arose naturally and voluntarily in the course of conversation, nor would I have myself so invested in the person's comings and goings that I would do legwork to confirm he/she was lying as long as their lies were harming no one. 

Ultimately the liar will have to deal with the consequences of his/her lies, so sit back, relax and watch the life lesson unfold.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

The rallying of treating a 21yo in this manner and continuing to push the idea that they're not adults, is, yes, inappropriate.  Someone needed to say it.  It's not parenting anymore.  The relationship has shifted to recognize the legal status someone has. If a person can't do this, then it might help them to get therapy to deal with their issues of wanting an adult to remain a child.

Throughout this thread, the overwhelming response has been that Scarlett should let it go and not put ds in the position of even needing to lie. I don't know where you are getting the idea that people are saying she should treat the 21yo like a 12yo. I'm seeing almost everyone say the opposite, and further, that it sounds like time for him to move on in life.

As for the bolded, I don't know who you think wants their adult offspring to remain a child. People pushing back on your "you shouldn't call it parenting once they turn 18" certainly doesn't mean they want their kids to remain children. I, for one, have been explicit in the fact that I very much want my particularly slow to mature adult kid to become independent. It's insensitive frankly to be so unaware of what some other parents are dealing with as to declare that they aren't parenting anymore. You have been fortunate to have a kid who didn't require that. Don't put down everyone else who has not been.

[KSera]

dp.

Edited April 2, 2022 by KSera

[Xahm]

To answer the original question. Sure. Sometimes I let people lie to me. If someone lies and I know it, it still gives me useful information. I might learn that they are uncomfortable talking about a thing, that they don't respect me, that they are scared of confrontation, or something else. Generally I take that information and use it to inform future interactions with that person. 

My kids are young. When they lie to me, we sit down later and talk about trust and truth telling, but in the moment, I generally don't confront because defensive kids generally aren't open to learning.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, catz said:

This isn't really a parenting thread.  I agree it's much more about the DH and OP not being on the same page and a step child situation.  OP often has very specific and high expectations of this young man that her DH isn't on board with.  I think this thread would read very differently if we were reading about the OPs son instead of stepson.

ETA - I really doubt the DH is completely in the dark about the lying.  

Yeah, this is how I am reading the situation too given all of the back history. I don’t think dss should be lying, but I agree that the core issues are as you lay them out.

[importswim]

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Y’all are my therapist. 🙂

Rut roh. I should add therapist to my economist and immunologist jobs right now😂 but sadly I have no experience or degree in any of those. 

If you can find a way to see a licensed therapist I'd still recommend it since as you can see the advice here, whilst often well meaning,  can get convoluted and is hard to dispense when we don't know the exact situation. A licensed therapist can give solid advice without any bias, projection, or lens.

[2squared]

Like others, I don’t ask my teens questions which I believe they feel they can’t answer honestly. I provide advice and guidance, but they need to make their own decisions and mistakes. I am not the judge of them, and I am NOT going to have them think I judge them. 

I work to keep the communication channels open so they feel comfortable coming to me with all their stuff, even the stuff I don’t want to know about. I also work to make sure they feel unconditional love. 

[Jaybee]

Maybe I missed it, but people keep talking like Scarlett is monitoring his comings and goings all the time, and I didn't notice her saying anything about that. She probably doesn't want to explain the whole thing, understandably. But if he is lying about his progress in getting his car fixed, and inconveniencing others because of it, that is not the same kind of thing as trying to make him tell her when he's coming in and where he is going, which I believe she has said she is not doing.

[Tanaqui]

Scarlett, we can't all be your therapist, even in jest. Few of us are trained in that - if any of us are at all! - and none of us can get a full view of what's going on in your life. And we're all either your friends or at least your frenemies. Your therapist can't be your friend, that's as bad as them being, like, your mom or your spouse.

As for lying and your stepson... most people are terrible at telling if other people are lying. And by "most people" I mean "everybody". That's one of the ways we all lie to ourselves, we think we're better at telling if our kids are lying, or that we're exceptionally good at telling lies. We're not. Parents rate little better than a coin toss. People who have undergone special training, such as cops, rate little better than a coin toss - they're just more confident about it.

The only way to know if somebody is lying is if the facts contradict them. If they say they were in Place A and you have hard evidence that they were not there, for example - you saw them elsewhere at that time, or something.

I feel that asking somebody a question that they'll lie to, when you know what the answer is, is like lying yourself. If you know that your stepson is Doing The Thing You Don't Like, and yet you ask him what he did that day, you're dishonestly implying that you don't know or even suspect that he Did That Thing. And as far as I'm concerned, that's a type of lie. It's worse than lying about what he did - he's lying to protect himself. You're lying to either catch him in the lie, or to confront him over his activities.

I don't think it's ethical to do that. If I were you, and I didn't want to be lied to anymore, I'd just stop playing games. Keep conversation away from that trouble area entirely. Then nobody is lying.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, catz said:

This isn't really a parenting thread.  I agree it's much more about the DH and OP not being on the same page and a step child situation.  OP often has very specific and high expectations of this young man that her DH isn't on board with.  I think this thread would read very differently if we were reading about the OPs son instead of stepson.

ETA - I really doubt the DH is completely in the dark about the lying.  

You are correct Dh is not in the dark.  
As for the rest of your comment I have read it several times and I am not sure what you are trying to say.  I don’t really think my expectations for dss are that high.  I mean I would love if he would take his  dirty dishes to the kitchen instead of leaving them piling up in his room.  But I haven’t said anything about that for months.  I would also prefer he not let dirty clothes pile up for 3 and 4 weeks at a time.  Again I have not mentioned that to him in months.  
 

And  my  expectations for my ds were the same when he lived here.  
 

But anyway.  

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, annandatje said:

Generally people lie to avoid punishment or other negative consequences, to avoid being embarrassed, to keep their privacy and to portray themselves as more skilled and talented than they truly are.  Once you determine *why* this person is lying to you, you will be better equipped to handle it.  

The fastest and easiest solution is probably to discontinue asking the type of questions that result in a lie.  

Since the liar in question is an adult, you could insist the liar move out, especially if you are not interested in a long term relationship with him or her.  Have not read entire thread but I can't imagine a scenario where I would ask a roommate, including an adult child, where they had been and what they did unless it arose naturally and voluntarily in the course of conversation, nor would I have myself so invested in the person's comings and goings that I would do legwork to confirm he/she was lying as long as their lies were harming no one. 

Ultimately the liar will have to deal with the consequences of his/her lies, so sit back, relax and watch the life lesson unfold.

The lies  have not been as a result of me grilling him or even asking any questions.  

[Scarlett]

57 minutes ago, importswim said:

Rut roh. I should add therapist to my economist and immunologist jobs right now😂 but sadly I have no experience or degree in any of those. 

If you can find a way to see a licensed therapist I'd still recommend it since as you can see the advice here, whilst often well meaning,  can get convoluted and is hard to dispense when we don't know the exact situation. A licensed therapist can give solid advice without any bias, projection, or lens.

I have zero interest in seeing a therapist.  I have been to many and never found a single one more helpful than trusted wise friends.  

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Scarlett, we can't all be your therapist, even in jest. Few of us are trained in that - if any of us are at all! - and none of us can get a full view of what's going on in your life. And we're all either your friends or at least your frenemies. Your therapist can't be your friend, that's as bad as them being, like, your mom or your spouse.

As for lying and your stepson... most people are terrible at telling if other people are lying. And by "most people" I mean "everybody". That's one of the ways we all lie to ourselves, we think we're better at telling if our kids are lying, or that we're exceptionally good at telling lies. We're not. Parents rate little better than a coin toss. People who have undergone special training, such as cops, rate little better than a coin toss - they're just more confident about it.

The only way to know if somebody is lying is if the facts contradict them. If they say they were in Place A and you have hard evidence that they were not there, for example - you saw them elsewhere at that time, or something.

I feel that asking somebody a question that they'll lie to, when you know what the answer is, is like lying yourself. If you know that your stepson is Doing The Thing You Don't Like, and yet you ask him what he did that day, you're dishonestly implying that you don't know or even suspect that he Did That Thing. And as far as I'm concerned, that's a type of lie. It's worse than lying about what he did - he's lying to protect himself. You're lying to either catch him in the lie, or to confront him over his activities.

I don't think it's ethical to do that. If I were you, and I didn't want to be lied to anymore, I'd just stop playing games. Keep conversation away from that trouble area entirely. Then nobody is lying.

Again, I am not asking him questions.  He is volunteering stories that do not ring true.  But rather than just say, ‘hey that sounds like a lie’ I very quickly confirmed he was lying.  

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

It bothers me because it's inappropriate.  The context of it, within this thread, is inappropriate.  Scarlett thinking she has the right to treat her 21yo like a 12yo is inappropriate.  All of us, at 21 years old, would have found the discussion of parents having authority over us beyond a social degree inappropriate.

The rallying of treating a 21yo in this manner and continuing to push the idea that they're not adults, is, yes, inappropriate.  Someone needed to say it.  It's not parenting anymore.  The relationship has shifted to recognize the legal status someone has. If a person can't do this, then it might help them to get therapy to deal with their issues of wanting an adult to remain a child.

No idea where you got that idea.  But it is not true at all.  And certainly no one in this thread is encouraging me to treat him like. 12 year old. 

[Tanaqui]

If you're not asking him questions... honestly, then what it sounds like is a combination of the usual "lying to avoid trouble" and a trauma response. His lies may be stupid, but he learned to lie to keep himself safe when he was a child.

Confronting him on the lies is not going to go anywhere productive. I definitely wouldn't bring up any lies specifically with his father - either he sees it the same way you do or he doesn't, but the effect of you bringing it up would be to make it look like you're trying to drive a wedge between your husband and your stepson, and there is no way that ends well. (I'm operating on the assumption here that whatever it is is not something that we all universally agree is really really bad, or else you doubtless would have just told us what it is.)

So I'm going to suggest a modified "gray rock" approach. If he says something you are reasonably sure is false, give him the minimum response. If possible, give him NO response, but don't do this if it's bound to start something. Then change the subject to something else or leave the conversation entirely. Don't do this if he's not obviously lying.

Do NOT spend any more time trying to figure out if his words are true or false. You've gotten outside corroboration that some of his stories are not true, and it's obviously upsetting you. Don't do that to yourself. Just stick to minimal, unemotional responses to things that you think are probably false, and disengage from those topics of conversation as much as possible.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, wintermom said:

When a 21 yo is living in a parent's home, they are for practical purposes a "dependent." They may be a legal adult, however they are not living the life of an independent adult at the moment. That has meaning, and the home owner who is also a parent has a lot more invested in the relationship than a typical  renter/rentee relationship.

 

Yes this exactly.  He isn’t just any adult.  He is our son.  
 

And I have had acquaintances lie to be and I just cannot have a relationship with people who lie to me.  

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

.  Ah. That’s his mom’s problem then, not yours. Let that go. I wouldn’t give him my car anymore.  I’d only offer to give rides.

Thankfully our third vehicle is not running well at all and is going in to the shop Monday.  Ds has to be at work at 5:45 a.m so it is extremely inconvenient to give him rides.

But yes, now that he has his moms car so whatever. 
 

Insurance has been a nightmare.  They first first offered him $1100 but after I talked to them and emailed for weeks they came up to 2k plus $500 loss of use.  My boss said they are completely full of it and we should sue in small claims.  But at this point I am worn out, my own job situation  has gone insane and so I tell dss ‘hey you know what I have tried thus far and here are your options’ (accept offer or file small claims).  And then I left it alone.  
 

I also helped him search for cars since I had more time during work hours to do so than him.  He could not find a used car so he decided to look at new,..,I helped him apply for a loan…..his credit score is like 750 because I co signed a credit card for him a year or two ago…so anyway, I think he is set to get a new one,,,,,they have to order one for him and they say it will take 2 weeks or  so.  And he has his moms car which as you say is her problem not mine.  

[Scarlett]

23 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I doubt that is the only reason. He likely thinks that as a 21 year old you shouldn't be in his business outside of the direct household. He also likely knows that telling the truth means he has to find a new living situation. Also, from all your posts over the years I imagine simply not answering you isn't an option. So, he has likely been set up to lie because it is easier. 

For him, he doesn't see anything wrong with what he's doing, so all telling the truth will do is negative for him. Lying hurts his relationship with you but I bet for him it doesn't outweigh the negatives of telling the truth

What does that mean ‘in his business?’  I mean we live together, so yeah we have generally been aware of what goes on with all of us. He is volunteering lies.  No one is drilling him. 
 

And if he is lying to me and Dh because he thinks we would ask him to move out…..well then I would say he should man up and own his decisions. 

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This is the same stepson of the threads around:

doesn’t turn off the ac when he leaves the bedroom

depressed and overeating

dirty dishes left in the bedroom???

I would focus on my own reaction and problem. Yes, you are having a response based on your experiences with your own ex. Yes, you feel like you need to confront now (and here is where I got lost—because you are afraid of losing this gift?).

What are you afraid will happen if he continues to lie and you do not confront and correct?

This post….just perplexes me.  You are remembering my posts where I vent about my step son….I notice you remember no posts where I vent about my own son, but whatever. 
Ftr, the ‘bedroom’ referred to where my dss left the ac on 24/7 was 400 sq loft second floor of our house.  The Ac was installed to make it bearable for him to sleep.  Running it while he was at school was very costly to us.

He was morbidly obsess and I worried constantly about him.  I am still not sure if he was depressed but regardless he on his own lost the weight.  He has kept it off for a couple of years.  
And the leap to you thinking I need to confront him over his lies because I am afraid of losing my gift of spotting liars…..I just can’t even. Are you making fun of me?  I shoved down my gut  feelings of being lied to for YEARS.  I would love to lose the gift/curse of being able to spot liars.  

I am not afraid of anything.  I am disgusted by liars.  And I worry about the boy/man I have helped raised.  I want him to make good choices.   But I recognize he can make his own choices….I just want him to be honest about it. 

[Tanaqui]

Scarlett, it's harder to remember posts where you vent about your son instead of your stepson because there aren't as many of them.

[prairiewindmomma]

I misread the line about the strongest thing you have. I reread through your posts and you were referring to your relationship with your husband. Hence my confusion and asking for clarification because it seemed weird as heck. So, mea culpa on that one—no jab intended.

Likewise, both of your stepsons have lived with you fairly recently, so I was trying to clarify which one…not knowing if the one with the granddaughter had bounced back home again or not.

As to the rest, the stepson at issue now seems to have a long history of a somewhat fraught relationship with you where you come across as ready for him to move out and where your Dh seems to not be as upset by various issues as you are. Step parenting is complicated, but even so when husband and wife view a dynamic with a kid differently, you have to kind of pause and analyze why that is. You both seem to be aware he is lying to avoid judgment by you. So, you are operating off of the same facts. Why do you feel like you need to “nag” (your words) your husband about it? He’s aware. Why your husband not as upset as you are? Is he offering more grace to his son? I don’t think anyone enjoys being lied to. Why is it bothering you more than Dh? (Note that I mentioned above that I agree lying is wrong, but we can’t control what comes out of someone’s mouth, only our reaction to it and you say that your reactions are driving a wedge between you and your husband—which is something you can control.) If this is bothering you more because you are being triggered by your history with your ex, then work on that. If you hate being lied to by ds, and you know he is lying to you to avoid judgment, and you want to preserve the relationship, then help him feel secure and don’t trap him in conversation. Or choose to tolerate the behavior and not get emotionally involved because you prioritize peace with your husband over being vindicated that your stepson is a liar. You have a lot of options and if you don’t like how you are feeling now—then change how you think about and react to it. That’s way more likely to improve how you feel than trying to compel dss to stop lying or nagging Dh about dss’s lying. 

[Lecka]

I feel like, one, I don’t think biological dads have some kind of magic power to always make good choices with their kids.

I think biological dads can get into bad dynamics, too.

I think biological dads can ignore things they really shouldn’t ignore, because they are afraid to rock the boat or they are afraid they will damage a relationship.  
 

Or because they do like to have their kid around, whether it is the best thing or not.

So I just can’t agree with anything where there’s an assumption that a dad is seeing things more lovingly than a step-mom.

Two, it is inherently stressful to have someone live with you, when you can’t have basic standards met.  Like — dirty dishes and clothes.  I agree there are times to put up with this, but it’s inherently stressful, and I think it’s very fair to be looking at a move-out date when there are things like this.  
 

Three, the fact is Scarlett had worked to pay the bills and it is stressful to have someone not respect that.  I am not even saying that because of anything Scarlett has said.  This has come up with anyone I have talked to who has actually had someone live with them.  
 

Four, we have had 3 people live with us, and it is inherently stressful to be near a move-out period. It just is.  Our best case was with my husband’s friend/co-worker and we did all the things like establish a time period up front.  Then we extended the time period.  Then we didn’t want to extent the time period a second time.  We are and were on good terms with him, he’s totally mature, all the things you could ask for — it is still stressful and awkward.

 

It just is stressful because for us, in many ways we have a nice and pleasant home and people are going somewhere that is somewhat (or a lot) less nice and pleasant.  Why?  Because my husband and I work to make our home this way.  
 

It is also stressful because the person leaving is figuring out their next steps, coming up with money, maybe looking at moving somewhere worse.  My husband’s friend moved into a nicer house than we had, but with a recently divorced man (also my husband’s friend and co-worker) and it was a depressing house with a lot of the man’s kids’ stuff around and two divorced men.  It was not a step up.  (The man’s kids and wife left for another state on extremely bad terms, to include the mom trashing the house and leaving while he was out of town for work.  The kids never went back to that house, he visited them in his hometown….). 

 

It just is stressful and not great, even with everything being on good terms.

 

Five, it is harder when you don’t approve of life choices a person is making, but you are supporting them by having worked for your home and also to make it a pleasant atmosphere.  Making a house a home and a pleasant atmosphere is a lot of work and it is really unpleasant to be maintaining that for oneself and the rest of the family, while seeing it being taken advantage of by someone, with no recourse.

 

Six, my impression is the move-out time is close.  It is really a stressful time.  Frankly if the person is hoping for a reprieve of “you don’t have to deal with all this, you can stay after all,” that is a sad thing even if it’s for the best.  If you are wondering if your spouse is going to be able to be consistent, that is hard.  And then where is your (this would be “my” in my situation) sense that you have a say in your house, and where will the respect and dynamics go within the house if the person does stay longer?  How seriously will they take the need to move out the next time it comes up?  How seriously will they take the need to make their own difficult choices or put up with their own difficult circumstances, which can be needed for them to ultimately get into their *own* better place?  My feeling is — not seriously at all, and it would be extremely frustrating to me.

Seven, as much as possible, I need my home to be a place where I can feel like I can relax and be comfortable.  This is hard for me when there is stuff like this going on in the house.  It just is hard.  

 

Eight, my husband was raised with rules around “family does this and doesn’t do that.”  And unfortunately some of these things are really dysfunctional.  Just because they are natural to him and hard for him to go against, doesn’t make them good for anyone.  I could go into many dysfunctional things.  All we can do is choose not to be part of dysfunctional things.  It is not easy for him in any way.  
 

I don’t think that it’s a horrible thing to love someone whose family situation is on the “baggage” side.  But it’s not the same situation as just not having certain issues.  I don’t think the answer is “well, you married somebody with this issues, and you knew it going in, so you can’t even have any opinion about it.”  I think having opinions is fine.  Putting up with some things may be the best choice, too.  But it’s just not something where I think it’s the fault of someone who did not create the issues, if there is even a level of fault.  
 

I think having a say, and agreement, together with a spouse, that includes overlooking some things for a while can be good, too.  
 

I do think if there is a timeline and it’s going to be followed (enforced) then it really is time to have actions of overlooking things.  
 

But those are still really irritating things and they just can be more irritating at the end.  Sometimes people can get an attitude that they ask worse when they’re on their way out, or be kind-of sullen they are going to have to leave.  It’s not great.  
 

But guess who gets to be the bigger person to overlook those things?  
 

It doesn’t make it easy.  

 

[Scarlett]

@Leckathank you.  You nailed it completely. 

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Scarlett, it's harder to remember posts where you vent about your son instead of your stepson because there aren't as many of them.

We he has been on  on his own for 2 1/2 years. So there is that.  Also, when I issues with my son I could just deal with him.  There wasn’t the step parent thing.

[Lecka]

I think also for me, I am good at acting mature and whatnot.

Well, it has happened before (not on this issue) that my husband can think “no big deal anymore” when it’s really “I am putting up with this for this amount of time.”  
 

I wouldn’t say I have nagged, I have been more of a peacemaker, but I have felt the need to make sure my husband knows “this is happening” because he is the one who will get appeals.  It is hard on him for sure.  But if we’re on the same page he knows I expect him to resist 😉

[Lecka]

It’s also strange to my husband’s relatives that someone can be nice and pleasant and still follow through.  
 

There is not a lot of follow through to begin with, and for there to be follow through without an ugly scene or someone being really nasty for a few weeks — is not how they operate.

 

So they are *likely* to think everything seems fine with me now and they can lean on my husband.  
 

Which is hard — but it can be done!  But it is hard on my husband.  

[Bootsie]

I can understand where you are coming from.  Lying really bothers me.  DH sees it as a much grayer than I do.  In fact, he often thinks saying that something is a lie is much worse than the saying "not exactly, 100% the right thing" or something that is "partially correct".  When we had a situation where his child (my stepchild) was lying to us, it was especially difficult.  There were the fundamentally different ways we react to and deal with lying and then, on top of that, there was the entire step-parenting role issues and dynamics. 

I had to focus on my relationship with DH.  We had to find some compromises that we could both live with (not necessarily like).  I found it helped if I focused on dealing with lies that really impacted me (the damage done when a party was thrown at our house while we were out of town) and not about lies that did not impact me directly (you said you were at Sally's but you were really at Molly's house).  The lies that did not directly impact me, did impact trust, and revealed things about the character of the other person; I tried not to take them personally and to focus on my response--whether it was one of love, patience, kindness.

Good luck; I know it isn't easy.

[Emba]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:17 PM, importswim said:

 A licensed therapist can give solid advice without any bias, projection, or lens.

In an ideal world, maybe, but I’ve been to a couple and that was not my experience.

[katilac]

44 minutes ago, Emba said:

In an ideal world, maybe, but I’ve been to a couple and that was not my experience.

It is definitely not always the case. It's sometimes very helpful to have insight from someone not involved in the situation, but therapists are human and do have biases. They're professionals, so usually able to keep that in check, but the trick is to recognize when your particular situation has triggered a bias in the therapist. If they seem stuck on one course of action, for instance, that's usually their bias/projection in action (because there's almost always more than one reasonable course of action). 

[Lecka]

This is something I have been thinking about….. 

 

I feel like, there are some people who don’t respect the work that a couple does to get along and make the house have a pleasant atmosphere.  
 

They either don’t know about it, or they do know about it but they don’t want to have to do the things it would take to create a pleasant atmosphere.

 

Some people even look down on this in various ways, like looking down on a man who listens to his wife or wants to do things his wife likes.  Or looking down on someone who cares about various things that contribute to a pleasant environment and respecting others — from cleaning up to how to behave towards others.  
 

For the people we have had live with us…. My FIL is someone who is disrespectful towards his own wife and has a jokey attitude towards me.  He is someone who does not respect men who listen to their wives or want to make them happy.  
 

My little BIL was clueless and raised in a way that he did not experience some things or see some connections.  He wants to have a pleasant home though and wants to work with his wife to make that happen.  He was clueless when he lived with us and I think didn’t understand various things or why I might have certain standards or why my husband might have certain standards.  He didn’t see the connection to how these standards might make our home pleasant.  I think it does take some willpower!  It doesn’t just happen by itself! 
 

My husband’s friend has just gotten divorced a second time 😞. He told my husband he had no idea why, but my husband thinks he knows because his friend told him a little while ago, that his wife had said some things, and his friend maybe didn’t pick up on them to understand they were big issues and he needed to respond in a way he didn’t.  It’s sad, now he has 3 kids by two different women, but is back to being sad and alone. 
 

I feel like with the people other than my BIL, it’s like they know they like a pleasant environment but they don’t know how to go about making that happen for themselves.  
 

Not that we are perfect, either, but overall — we get along most of the time and try to be respectful to other people around us.  
 

The thing is my husband, for example, can’t just take, take, take.  
 

But ours have been on the taking side.  The least taking one was my husband’s friend, by far.  But even then he was not really a part of my husband and I’s relationship dynamic, and at a certain point it is just tiring to have a 3rd adult.  
 

Because it is a 3rd adult!  But it’s not an equally contributing adult, as far as — the more emotional side of things.  
 

At least in our case, it was not.

 

If my mom ever lived with us, she would be contributing emotionally and I think we could have her forever without feeling like there was a drain or an impediment.  
 

But my mom would be in a different place emotionally than a sad, recently divorced man, or a sad young adult, or a grown man who blamed his wife for every thing and took no responsibility for his own actions.  That is what we have said.  
 

We haven’t particularly had someone working their way into a better position, either.  I would say we have had people go into positions that were not with us but also weren’t a happy “yay we reached a goal, we finished school or saved money to reach a goal” kind of situation.  I think the people who live in expensive places may get those more often, because it’s only for financial reasons that people live with them, and not as much on the emotional side or the NOT pursuing education or advancement or saving money type of situation.  

[Katy]

Here's the link to file a complaint with the insurance commissioner in your state: https://www.oid.ok.gov/consumers/file-an-online-complaint/

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, Katy said:

Here's the link to file a complaint with the insurance commissioner in your state: https://www.oid.ok.gov/consumers/file-an-online-complaint/

Yes, I have told ds about that too. I have filed many complaints with them in my job and it is very difficult to get much done with them, but it can’t hurt to try.

[73349]

If a young adult were to, say, walk in the door and just make a false statement, unprompted, I think my reaction would be along the lines of "Oh hey, that's not the truth. Pizza's on the stove if you want some." It would make it clear that I knew it was false but I also didn't have a need to launch into an argument.

[importswim]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:30 PM, Emba said:

In an ideal world, maybe, but I’ve been to a couple and that was not my experience.

Yes, I almost edited right after I pushed submit to say a "good" licensed therapist. I assumed that was implied but I probably should have done it! I think it's like medication, unfortunately, sometimes trial and error to find the right fit.

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, 73349 said:

If a young adult were to, say, walk in the door and just make a false statement, unprompted, I think my reaction would be along the lines of "Oh hey, that's not the truth. Pizza's on the stove if you want some." It would make it clear that I knew it was false but I also didn't have a need to launch into an argument.

Ha yes. Sounds good in theory, reality has your head spinning about the right thing to say.

[Scarlett]

Well.  This was a very helpful thread to me. I took a lot away and several of you especially @maize helped me to focus on maintaining my good relationship with Dh.   Things have been great with Dh and me.  
 

I also got some good advice from my SIL ( dh’s sister) who reminded me to appreciated my gut because it is rarely wrong but to focus on being kind to dss because he is torn up in internal conflict. So I focused on being being kind. Zero negative comments to him.  Or to Dh about him.  And I am glad I have spent these months doing that because things are coming to a head today.  Dh confronted him yesterday afternoon but it was pretty high stress and so they tabled it until today so  that emotions could settle a bit.  
 

I am just staying out of it and letting it shake out however it does.  
 

 

[Catwoman]

Thanks for the update, Scarlett! I hope your dh can straighten things out with your dss. It sounds like things are pretty tense right now. 

[Spryte]

I hope they worked everything out and things are less stressful now.

[Catwoman]

41 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I hope they worked everything out and things are less stressful now.

Me too! I'm hoping no news is good news!

[Scarlett]

They had a long talk last night. Dh expressed his disappointment in the behavior and in the lying and let dss know that he is now considered an untrustworthy person due to the repeated lying and scheming. Dss cried. More discussion to follow but it was late. Today he is on a kayak trip with his friends. 

[Catwoman]

It sounds like it’s a good thing that this is out in the open now. 

[Katy]

Brava for handling that well.