Question re: older adult kids "boundaries"

[mum]

16 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Oof.

When I read adult kids I was thinking early 20's, not my age. You've received some good advice here. If you can, try to stop thinking of them as kids. They're not and I'm not sure it's serving them to occupy that space.

Agree. They are not kids. When I was 40 my children were 19, 17, and 14. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by mum
clarity

[LucyStoner]

No is a complete sentence.  

I am super helpful.  I’ll say yes to driving people to the airport at odd hours or to feeding a friend’s rabbits, guinea pigs, mice *and* freaking finches while they are traveling.   I am also empathetic with executive functioning challenges because I have two sons with ASD, am married to someone with ADHD and have some similar stuff going on myself.  Anyways, I’m also 41.  That’s a grownass woman’s age.  I wouldn’t ask someone to spend all day at my house for a fed ex delivery nor would I agree to do that for someone the week of Christmas.  She can figure out something else if you say no.  

Edited January 4, 2022 by LucyStoner

[Shoeless]

I mean, if they are strapped for cash and in 80k debt, then renting a Snoo (?) seems kind of at odds with that.  

If they are really that strapped for cash, then that should motivate her to find a solution to the Snoo Situation that doesn't rely on you sitting there all day. 

[popmom]

5 hours ago, Frances said:

It’s hard to imagine the $80k is their responsibility, unless a huge chunk of the care was out of network. Most teachers have pretty good insurance because they are public employees. They may have to pay for a good chunk of it, but they have it. Plus, it seems the addition of a new baby would be a qualifying event and they could both add the baby to their coverage, so double insurance, at least for the baby.

This. Public school educators typically have really good insurance. They don’t even have to pay a good chunk of it. That’s a private sector thing. (I was a public school teacher, my FIL, and friends in other states.) This $80k out of pocket is fishy, fishy, fishy.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Yes, she was a little huffy and threatened to "not send it back, cancel Fed Ex and pay for the extra month".  I will have to work long and hard on this not troubling me.  I just took a 2 hour drive, thinking and praying on this very situation.  With teary eyes and all.

"Threatened" is a weird word here. How is this a threat? Is it going to harm you in some way for her to do this? If not - it's not a threat! And since it's not a threat, you shouldn't respond as though it is. Let's run through a sample dialog:

Her: I need you to come here and sit and wait for FedEx for me.

You: How long would this take?

Her: IDK, like, maybe up to eight hours? Tomorrow?

You: No, that won't be possible, honey. You'll have to find another solution.

Her: Like what!? Maybe I should just forget returning it now and keep it another month!

You: Sounds like a plan!

Her: It's so expensive though! Can't you even help?

You: It just won't be possible.

Her: Why not!?

You: I just can't.

Her: But it costs so much!

You: Yeah, that sucks. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?

Her: Ugh, I guess I have to keep it!

You: Guess not! Bye! Have a nice Christmas! *click*

(This sample dialog assumes a niece who is willing to emotionally manipulate people to get what she wants. If not, then it's even less of a threat. If she's not trying to make you feel guilty, and you have no reason to feel guilty, then her plan to resolve her problem should not be "guilt-inducing", and if you often feel this way you may want to work on that.)

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, sheryl said:

I could be wrong but that's not my understanding.  I asked and the previous reply is what I got.  Now, maybe she didn't understand question and I didn't the answer.  Bottom line is I don't know.  Just going on what I was told.   Insurance policies vary.  Certainly they vary state to state.  ???  Maybe theirs isn't great.  I have no clue.  Even if it's half that, it's still a lot of money.  The nanny is on the cheap side and comparable to day care b/c the nanny and niece met in hospital having babies!  The nanny is allowed, of course, to bring her baby to "work" is a benefit.  

Insurance definitely varies widely all over the country.

That said, even my worst ever insurance plans have had maximum out of pocket limits. The highest have been $17 or 18k (per family, not individual. And family max is typically 2x individual max.)
That is not to say I haven’t received higher bills. I got one in the $40k range once, but because it wasn’t processed correctly. I had it fixed.

It is not right that any “consumer of health care” should have to work a part time job sorting out their bills, but it is reality. I’d place a pretty high bet that they are NOT responsible for $80 grand, but that there are major billing issues to sort out.

[Alicia64]

I just wanted to hop in and say that my first two years of having twins were a scrambled blur. Without a doubt I didn't have my head screwed on straight (I was 38 so plenty old too like they are).

A gentle "no" from you might help wake them up a bit.

Like, "gosh I would love to but I'm slammed with a, b, and c."

You sound like a wonderful aunt.

♥

[TechWife]

15 hours ago, sheryl said:

OK, thanks all!  I don't have time to reply individually so here is a group reply -

Just called Fed Ex and niece.  She said the company for the Snoo bassinet indicates that it can NOT be dropped off.  ????  So, dh deals with FED EX all the time for work.  He mentioned changing the pick up location to our house.  Called niece and she's checking with company to see if bassinet can be picked up from our house.  Why the heck not?!?!!?!  This company closed at 5, of course.  We were talking at 5:30. She'll call tomorrow.  Then, I'm sad for her here, she got panicky and huffy.  WHAT!  I'm willing to help these adult kids (yes, kids aka adult kids) but boundaries are forth-coming.  Why would it matter to a company where to pick up the item?  Will it void a warranty?  

She made me feel guilty when she said she'd cancel and they'd pay for another month.  I'm just sad.  Do not want the attention on me here but I'm sad that these adult kids nearing 40 are so clueless to organization.  Now I sound mean and that is NOT my intent.  

Sigh!  I bet she called her Mom/my sister and had choice words.  I just know in my heart I love them and am willing to help but this is ridiculous!

Stuff like this used to bother me, but I realized people just operate differently than I do. Some things that stand out:

They are new parents with all the adjustments that come with it. It’s a hard transition for all new parents & shouldn’t be minimized. They will have to adjust at various points in their parenting. It sounds like you are doing a great job of being supportive of these life transitions overall. 

They are transitioning from crisis mode to their new normal. They will figure out their time & task management. You don’t need a blow by blow on the back and forth between niece & the company or the shipper. Your role is to say what you can do, then wait to see if she wants your help within those parameters. You can listen to her frustrations making these plans if you want to, but you don’t have to. That’s your boundary issue, not hers. 

They aren’t clueless. A lot of people aren’t organized, so what? How they live their life really isn’t any of your business. Not your circus, not your monkeys. If the way they live their life stresses you out, managing the stress is your problem, not theirs. 

If you feel guilty, that’s your boundary problem, not hers.

Why do you even care if she talked to her mother about this and had “choice words?” If she wants to talk to her mother, that’s her business. It will only become a problem if either you or her mother try to insert yourselves into your respective relationships with niece. If that happens, how much of a problem it becomes is up to you because you can refuse to participate in relationship shenanigans. 

Setting boundaries is a normal part of all relationships. It isn’t punitive, it just is. Some people do this instinctively, some, like me, don’t. I had to learn boundaries were even a thing before I learned how to set them & decades after learning that, I’m still a work in progress. It sounds like setting boundaries might not come naturally to you and your need to do it in this particular situation is stressing you out. Your stress level is your problem to work out, not hers. I can speak from my personal experience that with practice, boundary setting becomes more and more natural & in the future you’ll probably instinctively be able to have a quick conversation about something like this that goes smoothly for everyone concerned. You will get the hang of it, but realize it’s a process and give yourself some grace. That will lesson your stress around boundary setting. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by TechWife

[HS Mom in NC]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Insurance definitely varies widely all over the country.

That said, even my worst ever insurance plans have had maximum out of pocket limits.

My privately purchased Blue Cross Blue shield has no out of pocket limits. It covers 80% of approved costs, we're on the hook for 20% of the rest of the approved costs and the costs that aren't covered, with no limit, which is after our $1500 monthly payment and $13, 000 annual deductible. There are no better privately purchased options for us as business owners here or in the state with lived in before.

***Note to readers: If you don't want the US to have universal, taxpayer funded healthcare, then I suggest quickly finding an effective  way to force politicians opposed to it to come up with a workable solution, otherwise, it's just a matter of time, so start getting used to the idea.

[TechWife]

12 hours ago, sheryl said:

 I'll be stuck this time to helping.   

They are teachers.   From what I understand they do not have good insurance.  I believe, although not certain, the 80K is THEIR responsibility.  

You aren’t stuck. You don’t have to do this just because they asked. Your boundaries are your responsibility. If you do this, you are choosing it. They cannot violate your boundaries without your permission.

Their financial obligations are theirs, not yours. Their obligations don’t affect your boundaries. But again, realizing that and being at peace with that is your boundary issue, not theirs. 

The thing about boundaries is that we own them. They are ours and ours alone. We don’t set boundaries for other people, we set them for ourselves. I can’t set a boundary on how someone treats me because I can’t control other people. I can set a boundary on how I am going to act and react in response to that treatment, then I and I alone am responsible for following through and enforcing it. People don’t have to agree to my boundaries in order for me to have them.

[TechWife]

12 hours ago, sheryl said:

OK, everyone, thanks for the replies.  I know not to feel guilty but read one of my replies.  She made it known she might have to cancel and pay for another month which is guilt-inducing.  I don't think she meant to go down that road.  

My concern is this little baby.  My great niece!  She's innocent in all of this.  I am concerned that a pattern has developed and not sure how to stop it REALLY short of destroying a relationship with my niece.  And, all of this really wouldn't be my fault. I'm put in this position.  EX) Niece asked me to babysit a month or so ago and I said yes.  I asked that she CONFIRM 2 days before.  Did she?  No.  She confirmed day of.  I think that's disrespectful.  OK, lmk the day before at least just so I can plan my schedule if she doesn't need me.  Oh boy!  I called her on it and told her that she's done that to me 2-3 times and not continue that way.  I need confirmation.  Yes, they need me or not.  It's really simple.  

What in the world? How is one unreasonable ask a pattern? How is you not respecting your own boundaries about babysitting going to destroy your relationship with your niece? That will only happen if you let it. They are your boundaries, not hers. You can’t call someone else out for violating your boundaries when you allow them to do it. You can’t call someone out for violating your boundaries when you move them around so that they don’t know where they really are. “She said two days, but she’s done one day a few times, so she must not have meant two days or I misunderstood.”
Call yourself out, but not her. 

[MEmama]

18 minutes ago, TechWife said:

You aren’t stuck. You don’t have to do this just because they asked. Your boundaries are your responsibility. If you do this, you are choosing it. They cannot violate your boundaries without your permission.

Their financial obligations are theirs, not yours. Their obligations don’t affect your boundaries. But again, realizing that and being at peace with that is your boundary issue, not theirs. 

The thing about boundaries is that we own them. They are ours and ours alone. We don’t set boundaries for other people, we set them for ourselves. I can’t set a boundary on how someone treats me because I can’t control other people. I can set a boundary on how I am going to act and react in response to that treatment, then I and I alone am responsible for following through and enforcing it. People don’t have to agree to my boundaries in order for me to have them.

I think I need to print out your words and frame it. 
 

[QueenCat]

12 hours ago, sheryl said:

DH said something similar.  Here it is - niece said company states (I'm assuming here in comp literature, website, other?) that item may not be dropped off.  That's odd to me.  But, I'll abide by the rules.  Niece is checking to find out if Snoo can be picked up from our house.  She said she was going to contact them tomorrow but dh said they are closed on weekends.  So, she'll be driving to Great Lakes on Monday (leave Sunday, spend night and drive rest of way on Monday) so I'm guessing she'll contact them then.  It will be a close call b/c FE is due to pick up Tuesday.  I'll be stuck this time to helping.  Unless she cancels all together.   Or, she may (at our suggestion) see if they will approve pick up from our house.  

They are teachers.   From what I understand they do not have good insurance.  I believe, although not certain, the 80K is THEIR responsibility.  

Why are you stuck helping this time? Tell her that if it can't be picked up at your house, then you can't do it. Period. 

[DawnM]

I am guessing they assume that since you are stay at home parent, you are "available."   Sorry.   I don't really have answers, just saying sorry.

[sheryl]

12 hours ago, Catwoman said:

The part of the story that would make me think about telling her to do it herself was when she got “a little huffy.” That’s some serious entitlement right there. It may seem like she was asking you for a favor, but she wasn’t; she was making a demand in a way that she thought would get you to do it for her, and when you hesitated, she showed her true colors.

Have you considered that she doesn’t want to be bothered with the inconvenience of dropping it off at a FedEx location herself, and that it’s simply easier for her to make you go to her home and wait around all day for the FedEx guy to show up?

 

Well, yes, it appears as such.  We are family and I'm the type of person where you don't need to be formal around me.  But, true, why say a favor?   Why not say "would you and Uncle ??  do such and thus"?  A favor "sometimes" is met in desperation.   Niece/dh both have used up many sick days, other days at work when niece was in hospital herself for an extended stay and then when baby stayed longer.  Their nanny has a newborn (remember, they met in hospital) and goes to all of the "newborn appts".   So, niece/dh call me asking if I'd babysit baby.  I've gladly done this as I want to be a blessing to all 3 of them and niece/dh were then in a position of "using up" most of their days so it's not like they could stay home.  Now, they have since the baby was born but the days off are becoming less and less.  

This is getting twisted and I need to resolve this.  Will need to approach in the new year.  My niece  has not reached out this a.m. and that saddens me.  Oh well.....  People DO make mistakes (I've made my share) but it would be nice if she apologized and we can start afresh with new boundaries, etc.  

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, J-rap said:

I used to have someone in my life who was like that.  She was a very dear person to me, so I did want to make myself available to help her.  It took awhile to catch on to the fact that this was just her way...  It didn't matter if it was in especially difficult times, or just every day times.  She was very disorganized and always assumed people would help her.  But weirdly, it wasn't in a selfish way...  It was just in a very naive way.  She was very, very sweet.  She could hyper-focus for her job, but then kind of fell apart after that.  I wondered if she could have undiagnosed ADHD or something.  I learned that I could just say, "Sorry, but I'm unable to help you this time!"  If I could think of a good alternative, I'd recommend it to her, and maybe even explain how she could get it done herself.  She just seemed so clueless about so many things, even though she was in her late 30's, independent, had a good job, and was very smart.  It honestly seemed like something was just a little off with her. 

Yes, my niece has many fine qualities but she has been bailed out by her mother seemingly time after time.  This may contribute to the fact that she procrastinates b/c so much is done for her.  IDK!

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, sassenach said:

Oof.

When I read adult kids I was thinking early 20's, not my age. You've received some good advice here. If you can, try to stop thinking of them as kids. They're not and I'm not sure it's serving them to occupy that space.

Not going down this rabbit hole. Kids.  They are NOT kids but they ARE ADULT KIDS.  Have you heard the term adult kids or adult children?  I'm in a prayer group with other moms and we pray for "our adult kids".  There is a difference of being a "kid" and being an "adult kid".  I'm an adult kid to my parents and yet have a dd who is my adult child.  She's not a child but she's my adult child.  There is a difference.  IOW, my child/kid who IS an adult (young).

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, mum said:

Agree. They are not kids. When I was 40 my children were 19, 17, and 14. 

Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome to read previous reply.

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I mean, if they are strapped for cash and in 80k debt, then renting a Snoo (?) seems kind of at odds with that.  

If they are really that strapped for cash, then that should motivate her to find a solution to the Snoo Situation that doesn't rely on you sitting there all day. 

Right!  They had NO business renting the Snoo or doing other things.  I don't get this.  

[sheryl]

9 hours ago, popmom said:

This. Public school educators typically have really good insurance. They don’t even have to pay a good chunk of it. That’s a private sector thing. (I was a public school teacher, my FIL, and friends in other states.) This $80k out of pocket is fishy, fishy, fishy.

As I've stated, I really don't know.  I believe my memory is correct that I heard 70 or 80K. Now I may have heard incorrectly.  I'll have to press the issue in the future to get an update.  

[sheryl]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

"Threatened" is a weird word here. How is this a threat? Is it going to harm you in some way for her to do this? If not - it's not a threat! And since it's not a threat, you shouldn't respond as though it is. Let's run through a sample dialog:

Her: I need you to come here and sit and wait for FedEx for me.

You: How long would this take?

Her: IDK, like, maybe up to eight hours? Tomorrow?

You: No, that won't be possible, honey. You'll have to find another solution.

Her: Like what!? Maybe I should just forget returning it now and keep it another month!

You: Sounds like a plan!

Her: It's so expensive though! Can't you even help?

You: It just won't be possible.

Her: Why not!?

You: I just can't.

Her: But it costs so much!

You: Yeah, that sucks. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?

Her: Ugh, I guess I have to keep it!

You: Guess not! Bye! Have a nice Christmas! *click*

(This sample dialog assumes a niece who is willing to emotionally manipulate people to get what she wants. If not, then it's even less of a threat. If she's not trying to make you feel guilty, and you have no reason to feel guilty, then her plan to resolve her problem should not be "guilt-inducing", and if you often feel this way you may want to work on that.)

That was pretty much it but you'd have to understand the dynamics.   I didn't say no though.    I may be stuck as I try to "keep" my word once given.   It was a gentle threat.  I know my niece.  It was a manipulative maneuver (threat?) to entice a response from me in her favor. 

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Insurance definitely varies widely all over the country.

That said, even my worst ever insurance plans have had maximum out of pocket limits. The highest have been $17 or 18k (per family, not individual. And family max is typically 2x individual max.)
That is not to say I haven’t received higher bills. I got one in the $40k range once, but because it wasn’t processed correctly. I had it fixed.

It is not right that any “consumer of health care” should have to work a part time job sorting out their bills, but it is reality. I’d place a pretty high bet that they are NOT responsible for $80 grand, but that there are major billing issues to sort out.

As mentioned above, I'm going to get an update in the near future to learn if I heard correctly.  I DO hope I'm wrong.  That's a hefty bill otherwise.

3 hours ago, Alicia64 said:

I just wanted to hop in and say that my first two years of having twins were a scrambled blur. Without a doubt I didn't have my head screwed on straight (I was 38 so plenty old too like they are).

A gentle "no" from you might help wake them up a bit.

Like, "gosh I would love to but I'm slammed with a, b, and c."

You sound like a wonderful aunt.

♥

Alicia, thank you!  I appreciate that.  I try.  There are other things that are going on with her and maybe there is a medical reason, IDK.  She has sleep apnea and not sleeping b/c of that and new baby.  What adds to it is this -

1.  This past Wed she had off.  She coulda, shoulda scheduled a pick up that day when she WAS HOME!  I visited with them a couple of hours.  
2.  On Wed we discussed a "net" like contraption over baby's bedroom door.  ALSO, she received a call (while I was there) from the nurse who called to schedule an appt for baby's blood work the next day - this past Thursday.  
3.  I went over to babysit again Friday evening from 4:30-7 pm.  When I arrived niece proceeded to "repeat" conversation about "net on baby's door frame" AND "nurse called to schedule appt for baby"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Remember we talked about BOTH of these situations on Wed b/c I was there.  I'm concerned she did not remember either conversation and repeated BOTH to me Friday when I showed up to babysit.  I was so concerned I reached out to my sister to explain what happened and told her not to be alarmed (yet) but to observe her when she/dh/baby are there for next 2 weeks celebrating Christmas and New Year.  

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It is not right that any “consumer of health care” should have to work a part time job sorting out their bills, but it is reality. I’d place a pretty high bet that they are NOT responsible for $80 grand, but that there are major billing issues to sort out.

I was so fortunate when I had multiple hospitalizations with my pregnancy that the large women’s health clinic we used had people devoted to handling all billing issues for clients, even those related to hospitals stays. They had never dealt with my particular insurance before because it was through the university in another state where I was doing my grad work. I had finished all course work and exams and was just writing my dissertation and had moved across the country to be with husband who was starting his own grad work. Having other people take care of all billing and health insurance stuff was such a huge blessing during a very stressful time.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

My privately purchased Blue Cross Blue shield has no out of pocket limits. It covers 80% of approved costs, we're on the hook for 20% of the rest of the approved costs and the costs that aren't covered, with no limit, which is after our $1500 monthly payment and $13, 000 annual deductible. There are no better privately purchased options for us as business owners here or in the state with lived in before.

***Note to readers: If you don't want the US to have universal, taxpayer funded healthcare, then I suggest quickly finding an effective  way to force politicians opposed to it to come up with a workable solution, otherwise, it's just a matter of time, so start getting used to the idea.

I didn’t realize the ACA even allowed no out of pocket maximum, unless maybe that is a change since passage. But as public employees covered by group insurance, it’s hard to imagine the OPs niece and nephew would have a plan with no OOP maximum. 

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

Stuff like this used to bother me, but I realized people just operate differently than I do. Some things that stand out:

They are new parents with all the adjustments that come with it. It’s a hard transition for all new parents & shouldn’t be minimized. They will have to adjust at various points in their parenting. It sounds like you are doing a great job of being supportive of these life transitions overall. 

They are transitioning from crisis mode to their new normal. They will figure out their time & task management. You don’t need a blow by blow on the back and forth between niece & the company or the shipper. Your role is to say what you can do, then wait to see if she wants your help within those parameters. You can listen to her frustrations making these plans if you want to, but you don’t have to. That’s your boundary issue, not hers. 

They aren’t clueless. A lot of people aren’t organized, so what? How they live their life really isn’t any of your business. Not your circus, not your monkeys. If the way they live their life stresses you out, managing the stress is your problem, not theirs. 

If you feel guilty, that’s your boundary problem, not hers.

Why do you even care if she talked to her mother about this and had “choice words?” If she wants to talk to her mother, that’s her business. It will only become a problem if either you or her mother try to insert yourselves into your respective relationships with niece. If that happens, how much of a problem it becomes is up to you because you can refuse to participate in relationship shenanigans. 

Setting boundaries is a normal part of all relationships. It isn’t punitive, it just is. Some people do this instinctively, some, like me, don’t. I had to learn boundaries were even a thing before I learned how to set them & decades after learning that, I’m still a work in progress. It sounds like setting boundaries might not come naturally to you and your need to do it in this particular situation is stressing you out. Your stress level is your problem to work out, not hers. I can speak from my personal experience that with practice, boundary setting becomes more and more natural & in the future you’ll probably instinctively be able to have a quick conversation about something like this that goes smoothly for everyone concerned. You will get the hang of it, but realize it’s a process and give yourself some grace. That will lesson your stress around boundary setting. 

 

 

Well, as mentioned earlier the attention should not be on me.  Read my replies.   I'm trying to give grace to my niece.  It doesn't take a genius to see/know they are strapped.  BUT, a look at their house will reveal they are not organized and do make it a priority.  That's all I'll say on that issue.  One needs to look beyond the obvious sometimes, Techwife, and there is much more I'm not willing to share publicly but suffice to say that no matter how anyone cuts this, the bottom line is it's disrespectful.  I could care less if niece contacted my sister.  It's obvious they talked.   My dd was diagnosed with epilepsy at 7 y 10 m.  I didn't go around biting people's heads off.  OTOH, niece could have taken a year off to adjust.  This is getting side-tracked but I should not be heard liable for her poor choices.  Still, this is where grace comes in.  ALTHOUGH, as others have pointed out and I agree, there are boundaries and sometimes no needs to be enforced.

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I think I need to print out your words and frame it. 
 

It’s been a journey. Thank you for the encouragement. 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

You aren’t stuck. You don’t have to do this just because they asked. Your boundaries are your responsibility. If you do this, you are choosing it. They cannot violate your boundaries without your permission.

Their financial obligations are theirs, not yours. Their obligations don’t affect your boundaries. But again, realizing that and being at peace with that is your boundary issue, not theirs. 

The thing about boundaries is that we own them. They are ours and ours alone. We don’t set boundaries for other people, we set them for ourselves. I can’t set a boundary on how someone treats me because I can’t control other people. I can set a boundary on how I am going to act and react in response to that treatment, then I and I alone am responsible for following through and enforcing it. People don’t have to agree to my boundaries in order for me to have them.

Tech Wife, I ALREADY agreed to do this.  I like to be a person of my word.  If I've agreed to something then I (try to) make it happen.  That's not a boundary issue with me so I'll pass on that.  The boundary issue is me not enforcing one before this.  Again, I've been trying to extend grace to this strapping couple and there didn't seem to be an issue before now so perhaps this situation is a wake up to not only me to set boundaries but to niece/dh and my sister.  

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

What in the world? How is one unreasonable ask a pattern? How is you not respecting your own boundaries about babysitting going to destroy your relationship with your niece? That will only happen if you let it. They are your boundaries, not hers. You can’t call someone else out for violating your boundaries when you allow them to do it. You can’t call someone out for violating your boundaries when you move them around so that they don’t know where they really are. “She said two days, but she’s done one day a few times, so she must not have meant two days or I misunderstood.”
Call yourself out, but not her. 

OK, I'm clearly lost with your intent here.  It was my fault for not setting boundaries sooner but I didn't feel the need (giving grace to help the couple) until now.  That is not a crime in my book to extend grace.  I'm not calling myself out b/c none is needed when extending grace.  HOWEVER, expectations should have been addressed sooner.  This is a wake up call that will hopefully prove useful. 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I am guessing they assume that since you are stay at home parent, you are "available."   Sorry.   I don't really have answers, just saying sorry.

Yes, that is correct.  Oh, my sister is calling as I type this.   I'm talking with her now.  

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK, I'm clearly lost with your intent here.  It was my fault for not setting boundaries sooner but I didn't feel the need (giving grace to help the couple) until now.  That is not a crime in my book to extend grace.  I'm not calling myself out b/c none is needed when extending grace.  HOWEVER, expectations should have been addressed sooner.  This is a wake up call that will hopefully prove useful. 

But you did set boundaries by telling her you needed a 2 day notice when she needs you to babysit. Then you violated them by not holding yourself to that. If you are giving her grace, then you would not be bothered by it, unless you are operating on a different understanding  of grace than I am. I’m glad you are addressing expectations, please make sure your expectations of yourself are addressed ad well so that you can have some peace. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by TechWife

[TechWife]

9 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Tech Wife, I ALREADY agreed to do this.  I like to be a person of my word.  If I've agreed to something then I (try to) make it happen.  That's not a boundary issue with me so I'll pass on that.  The boundary issue is me not enforcing one before this.  Again, I've been trying to extend grace to this strapping couple and there didn't seem to be an issue before now so perhaps this situation is a wake up to not only me to set boundaries but to niece/dh and my sister.  

If you are agreeing to unreasonable requests, it’s a boundary issue. 

[Bootsie]

11 hours ago, sassenach said:

Oof.

When I read adult kids I was thinking early 20's, not my age. You've received some good advice here. If you can, try to stop thinking of them as kids. They're not and I'm not sure it's serving them to occupy that space.

I refer to my own son and daughter as my adult children or as my kids; that is my relationship to them--they are both my children and adults.  I do not refer to my nephew who is in his late 20s as an adult kid.  I knew him when he was a kid, but he is now an adult.  Likewise I do not refer to neighbors, coworkers, grocery store clerks, or other people I meet who are in their 20s, 30s, and 40 as "adult kids"  It can be difficult to transition to an adult-to-adult relationship with people that we knew when they were a child; It can also be difficult for the younger person to transition to an adult-to-adult relationship with someone they have known as an adult when they were a child. It sounds as if the couple may be overwhelmed with a new baby and medical issues, which is understandable, which is muddying the waters even more.  I think framing it of what you are willing and not willing to do to assist adult family members/friends who are going through a stressful time might help.

[BlsdMama]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Insurance definitely varies widely all over the country.

That said, even my worst ever insurance plans have had maximum out of pocket limits. The highest have been $17 or 18k (per family, not individual. And family max is typically 2x individual max.)
That is not to say I haven’t received higher bills. I got one in the $40k range once, but because it wasn’t processed correctly. I had it fixed.

It is not right that any “consumer of health care” should have to work a part time job sorting out their bills, but it is reality. I’d place a pretty high bet that they are NOT responsible for $80 grand, but that there are major billing issues to sort out.

Exactly. I racked up several hundred thousand the year of my diagnosis, misdiagnosis, ensuing treatments, and Mayo…. My responsibility that year was about $12k and travel. 
 

@sheryl - in response to two responses, you clicked the huh?/confused. That confuses me. Do you not agree she is pretty far into the grown up kingdom to have such demanding expectations, put a guilt trip on you while renting an expensive toy and going on vacation, get manipulative and pissy… 

 

My own daughters wouldn’t demand this of me, not because I wouldn’t do it, but because they have a consciousness of personal responsibility and demands other people have in their own lives. What @sassenach is getting at is that the bigger favor to your niece here isn’t agreeing to do whatever. It’sa good lesson for a big girl who might need it spelled out for her. 

[Bootsie]

30 minutes ago, sheryl said:

That was pretty much it but you'd have to understand the dynamics.   I didn't say no though.    I may be stuck as I try to "keep" my word once given.   It was a gentle threat.  I know my niece.  It was a manipulative maneuver (threat?) to entice a response from me in her favor. 

As mentioned above, I'm going to get an update in the near future to learn if I heard correctly.  I DO hope I'm wrong.  That's a hefty bill otherwise.

Alicia, thank you!  I appreciate that.  I try.  There are other things that are going on with her and maybe there is a medical reason, IDK.  She has sleep apnea and not sleeping b/c of that and new baby.  What adds to it is this -

1.  This past Wed she had off.  She coulda, shoulda scheduled a pick up that day when she WAS HOME!  I visited with them a couple of hours.  
2.  On Wed we discussed a "net" like contraption over baby's bedroom door.  ALSO, she received a call (while I was there) from the nurse who called to schedule an appt for baby's blood work the next day - this past Thursday.  
3.  I went over to babysit again Friday evening from 4:30-7 pm.  When I arrived niece proceeded to "repeat" conversation about "net on baby's door frame" AND "nurse called to schedule appt for baby"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Remember we talked about BOTH of these situations on Wed b/c I was there.  I'm concerned she did not remember either conversation and repeated BOTH to me Friday when I showed up to babysit.  I was so concerned I reached out to my sister to explain what happened and told her not to be alarmed (yet) but to observe her when she/dh/baby are there for next 2 weeks celebrating Christmas and New Year.  

I am not sure what relationship you have had with your niece all of her life.  I know some families in which aunts and uncles are much like a second set of parents who are highly involved in the lives of niece and nephews, guiding and disciplining them.  That is not the family culture I come from, so that may be a big difference in how I would approach this. 

I am sure that when I had a newborn baby with health problems that I repeated things to some family members.  Much of life at the time was a blur and I was was suffering from exhaustion and high levels of stress.  Noticing this and reporting it to her mother, telling her to watch it for the next 2 weeks, would be overinvolvement to me.  It would also be very odd to me to do things like press an issue to get an update on my niece or nephews medical bills.  Some of this may simply be different family cultures.  But for me, I would be concerned about niece's financial situation with mounting medical bills, I would try to assist in ways I could, but I wouldn't be pressing to get an update--if they want to tell me they will; if they want assistance they will ask.  Boundaries are also about accepting that they are adults making their own choices (probably some good and some bad) and respecting that without becoming overly involved.  

[sheryl]

14 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I refer to my own son and daughter as my adult children or as my kids; that is my relationship to them--they are both my children and adults.  I do not refer to my nephew who is in his late 20s as an adult kid.  I knew him when he was a kid, but he is now an adult.  Likewise I do not refer to neighbors, coworkers, grocery store clerks, or other people I meet who are in their 20s, 30s, and 40 as "adult kids"  It can be difficult to transition to an adult-to-adult relationship with people that we knew when they were a child; It can also be difficult for the younger person to transition to an adult-to-adult relationship with someone they have known as an adult when they were a child. It sounds as if the couple may be overwhelmed with a new baby and medical issues, which is understandable, which is muddying the waters even more.  I think framing it of what you are willing and not willing to do to assist adult family members/friends who are going through a stressful time might help.

See my previous replies.  You'll see "adult children" and "adult kids" listed as such on internet.   This thread is not about my use of either term.  

10 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Exactly. I racked up several hundred thousand the year of my diagnosis, misdiagnosis, ensuing treatments, and Mayo…. My responsibility that year was about $12k and travel. 
 

@sheryl - in response to two responses, you clicked the huh?/confused. That confuses me. Do you not agree she is pretty far into the grown up kingdom to have such demanding expectations, put a guilt trip on you while renting an expensive toy and going on vacation, get manipulative and pissy… 

 

My own daughters wouldn’t demand this of me, not because I wouldn’t do it, but because they have a consciousness of personal responsibility and demands other people have in their own lives. What @sassenach is getting at is that the bigger favor to your niece here isn’t agreeing to do whatever. It’sa good lesson for a big girl who might need it spelled out for her. 

Oh, I do agree she is an adult.  Not sure how one could infer otherwise.  She's my sister's adult child.   Well, as I've mentioned several times this seemingly happened for a reason.  I did talk with her when she did not give enough notice to confirm.  It went in one ear and out the other.  It is disrespectful.  I will now talk to niece/dh together so both are on the same page with me.  

[sheryl]

10 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure what relationship you have had with your niece all of her life.  I know some families in which aunts and uncles are much like a second set of parents who are highly involved in the lives of niece and nephews, guiding and disciplining them.  That is not the family culture I come from, so that may be a big difference in how I would approach this. 

I am sure that when I had a newborn baby with health problems that I repeated things to some family members.  Much of life at the time was a blur and I was was suffering from exhaustion and high levels of stress.  Noticing this and reporting it to her mother, telling her to watch it for the next 2 weeks, would be overinvolvement to me.  It would also be very odd to me to do things like press an issue to get an update on my niece or nephews medical bills.  Some of this may simply be different family cultures.  But for me, I would be concerned about niece's financial situation with mounting medical bills, I would try to assist in ways I could, but I wouldn't be pressing to get an update--if they want to tell me they will; if they want assistance they will ask.  Boundaries are also about accepting that they are adults making their own choices (probably some good and some bad) and respecting that without becoming overly involved.  

Thank you but disagree here.  Now this is getting off topic to main idea of thread.  

To all,  Christmas is in a few days and I don't want this on my mind so will delete my opening post and just ask to close this discussion.   Thank you!

[Tanaqui]

You said you "talked to her" when she didn't give enough notice. But did you follow-through? Did you keep your word and say "I needed a confirmation two days ago. I'm sorry, I made other plans. Maybe next time." or did you roll your eyes and do it anyway?

[Grace Hopper]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

  I know my niece.  It was a manipulative maneuver (threat?) to entice a response from me in her favor. 

Ok so this, right here, would have me drawing some firm boundaries. Fast. 
 

Also - gently - the amount of their medical debt is neither your business nor your responsibility. I wouldn’t be seeking any further info about it. 
 

Be a fun, doting great aunt. But don’t be her fetchy girl. That’s not good for either of you in the long run. 

[goldberry]

13 hours ago, popmom said:

This. Public school educators typically have really good insurance. 

Side note, but my daughter looking at school districts to work for disagrees.  One had a $5000 deductible and then covered only 70 PERCENT which I had never even heard of.  $5000 plus 30% of a big bill adds up fast!

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

You said you "talked to her" when she didn't give enough notice. But did you follow-through? Did you keep your word and say "I needed a confirmation two days ago. I'm sorry, I made other plans. Maybe next time." or did you roll your eyes and do it anyway?

I gave her a pass that time.  I believe in extending grace within reason.  Now if the same old, same old is repeated then I address.  One offense does not constitute a pattern but habitual ones do.  It's time for me to talk with her.

44 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Ok so this, right here, would have me drawing some firm boundaries. Fast. 
 

Also - gently - the amount of their medical debt is neither your business nor your responsibility. I wouldn’t be seeking any further info about it. 
 

Be a fun, doting great aunt. But don’t be her fetchy girl. That’s not good for either of you in the long run. 

I know many on this board agree with you.  I do too in a general sense.  BUT, in my family we talk about a lot of topics.  It would not be unusual for my sister and I to share budget for house (we've done that).  Now, that's very personal.  How much can you afford, Sheryl?  Or, Sheryl, what is your budget?  I do NOT take offense to that b/c my sister is trying to help us out be researching properties for sale.  And, vice versa.  So, in "my" extended family it's a topic of conversation to learn about cost of hospital bill.  It's not a problem unless one makes it so.  At the very least niece or dh can say "we'd rather not share".  But, in my extended family it's not a big deal.   Maybe some families choose not to share like that and that's fine.  What may be fine for you may not be for me and vice versa.   I do agree about setting boundaries as I've stated multiple times upthread.  Because of this repeated pattern it may be easier to show niece just that - "honey, this is becoming a pattern for you/dh".  I enjoy helping you out by babysitting but here are my parameters."   Now, what I haven't worked out are the true emergencies.  Perhaps they can bring baby to my home and I can still accomplish some things when baby is napping.  

[sheryl]

23 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Side note, but my daughter looking at school districts to work for disagrees.  One had a $5000 deductible and then covered only 70 PERCENT which I had never even heard of.  $5000 plus 30% of a big bill adds up fast!

Wow!  Read upthread - it's just a matter of conversation in my extended family.  I will ask again what the bill is.  Actually c-section was 10 and rest nicu - I think is what they shared with me.  To top it off both have their masters.  But, teachers just do not get paid what they deserve.   Just tremendous devotion, sacrifice of time (grading at home, etc) and more of children.  Many, many people in my family have teaching degrees (Dad was principal, Uncle was Superintendent, cousin, aunt, brother, sister, niece/dh).  I did not get a teaching degree lol.  

[Carol in Cal.]

Increasingly, teachers’ contracts have two layers of benefits, with the newbies getting the new layer which is not that great, while the old timers get to maintain their good ones.  

[HS Mom in NC]

27 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Wow!  Read upthread - it's just a matter of conversation in my extended family.  I will ask again what the bill is.  Actually c-section was 10 and rest nicu - I think is what they shared with me.  

You're missing what people are trying to suggest to you about the big picture here.   Your struggle with boundaries is likely directly due to your extended family normalizing things like discussing medical bills which isn't normal in families with healthy boundaries. It's fairly common in families that lack boundaries. It seems you have a distorted sense of familial roles and appropriateness at different developmental stages.  Lack of boundaries doesn't come out of nowhere, it typically has strong family of origin and/or personality components. 

You're immediately arguing with answers to a problem you posted about.  You should be listening and contemplating instead of justifying. It's going to require a paradigm shift on your part.  This is major, life altering stuff. Many people good at boundaries from all walks of life and different subcultures are telling you that what's been normalized for you is generally recognized as problematic.  Let that sink in and take it seriously.  Obviously you don't have to agree, but your posts read as frantically justifying so you don't have to make uncomfortable changes.

Change will require you to tolerate emotions and conversations you seem uncomfortable with.  Take a deep breath, step back, and look at the big picture of how your family thinks and operates compared to others. It's a big daunting task, but it is doable and worth it long term if you're willing to make changes.  If you're not, this kind of stuff will continue and will get worse as the lack of boundaries continues to erode the quality of your relationships with unreasonable behaviors while the resentment builds on all sides.  Is that what you want? Choosing not to address it with healthy boundaries is a hard choice with consequences.  Choosing to address it with healthy boundaries is a hard choice with consequences. Choose your hard-there's no way to avoid hard. Familiar does not equal easier.

[goldberry]

27 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 Your struggle with boundaries is likely directly due to your extended family normalizing things like discussing medical bills which isn't normal in families with healthy boundaries. It's fairly common in families that lack boundaries. It seems you have a distorted sense of familial roles and appropriateness at different developmental stages.

Many people good at boundaries from all walks of life and different subcultures are telling you that what's been normalized for you is generally recognized as problematic.  Let that sink in and take it seriously.  
 

"Discussing medical bills isn't normal in families with healthy boundaries."  Boundaries look different in different families, and between different members of those families.  You're not in a position to determine that as unhealthy and a distorted sense of familial roles without WAY more information.  

Also, OP has already said she sees the need to address this issue and her boundaries in this situation.  Multiple times.

Edited December 19, 2021 by goldberry

[Shoeless]

I have a relative like your niece, (about the same age, too). They make a lot of decisions that aren't well thought out. 

Inevitably, things go sideways and they're asking for help that requires a significant investment of time and/or money.  Everyone feels badly that they are (again) in a pickle, but it is also exhausting because they are always in a pickle.  You want to help them because you care and don't want to see them in a bad situation. And yet...here we go again. They don't want advice, they don't want to be told what to do (because they're an adult! 🙄), but they also just want you to fix their problem, and make it all go away, which isn't very "adult" of them.

I've been in a very similar situation: relative wanting me to take on a 6 hour long chore they failed to prepare for, so the relative could attend a social event.  I said no; if the chore is important, change your social event. If the social event is too important, then change the timing for the chore. I love you, but this isn't my problem and it's not an emergency. Relative was mad and tried to guilt trip me. They got over it and still call because they still fail to plan well and want me to take on their chores. 

Your niece has choices here, but she doesn't like them, so she's trying to bamboozle you into thinking you have responsibility for this situation. Whatever her debt situation is, you didn't cause it and you aren't worsening it. Her lack of planning is the only thing making her debt worse. Not you.

 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, goldberry said:

Side note, but my daughter looking at school districts to work for disagrees.  One had a $5000 deductible and then covered only 70 PERCENT which I had never even heard of.  $5000 plus 30% of a big bill adds up fast!

But did it have an OOP maximum? Not having one and/or incurring large out of network costs seem to be the only way to get to $80k in medical debt for a birth and NICU stay.

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

BUT, in my family we talk about a lot of topics.  It would not be unusual for my sister and I to share budget for house (we've done that).  Now, that's very personal.  How much can you afford, Sheryl?  Or, Sheryl, what is your budget?  I do NOT take offense to that b/c my sister is trying to help us out be researching properties for sale.  And, vice versa.  So, in "my" extended family it's a topic of conversation to learn about cost of hospital bill. 

FYI it wasn't a problem in my family either until we all realized people were making judgement calls and getting upset over the financial pieces they saw. and note the word pieces because it's always going to be pieces because they only see what the person has shared. Even if the person isn't trying to hide financial details from others in the household there are a lot of moving parts to a financial picture. After a near falling out with family members my mom and I decided to stop sharing/questioning and that this was unhealthy (even when everyone has the best of intentions).

Top it off hospital bills are the worst; if something went wrong there it may be fog for quite some time. I finally finished dealing with the hospital bills from giving birth to my 2 kids when my youngest daughter turned 3. My big mistake was to decide to put my kids on my husband's insurance instead of mine or having a fulltime job before my youngest. My immediate bill for my son's birth was in the 80k range for a non-emergency, pretty healthy baby vaginal birth. Then it was a lot of phone calls that only I could make and a lot of back and forth with hospital billing and insurance. A whole lot of waiting on bills and adjusted bills; and a lot of hospital billing people asking me why I'm so disorganized and taking so long with it (it takes them at least 3months to come back with each bill, all of which look identical to one of five types). I would not have acted appropriately if someone asked about my hospital bill.     

[DawnM]

8 hours ago, sheryl said:

As I've stated, I really don't know.  I believe my memory is correct that I heard 70 or 80K. Now I may have heard incorrectly.  I'll have to press the issue in the future to get an update.  

If they did IVF it is entirely possible that it is 70 or 80k even with insurance.  Insurance doesn't cover much of that.   

[sassenach]

10 hours ago, sheryl said:

Not going down this rabbit hole. Kids.  They are NOT kids but they ARE ADULT KIDS.  Have you heard the term adult kids or adult children?  I'm in a prayer group with other moms and we pray for "our adult kids".  There is a difference of being a "kid" and being an "adult kid".  I'm an adult kid to my parents and yet have a dd who is my adult child.  She's not a child but she's my adult child.  There is a difference.  IOW, my child/kid who IS an adult (young).

Oh, of course I have. I meant that you seem to think of/treat them as children that need your rescuing and your language reflects that. Like when my 24yo gets in a jam, I understand that part of the problem is inexperience and lack of adult maturity. The 24yo will ask me to bail her out (I even posted about this recently). However, my 36yo adult cousin doesn't ask for those types of bail outs, even though we are close family members who are available for emergencies and such. The 24 asks because on the spectrum of kid to adult, she still leans to the kid side. My cousin doesn't because she is a fully functioning adult who has a grasp on reasonable vs unreasonable expectations.  With my 24yo, sometimes I have to teach her to own her own adult problem by not jumping in to rescue her. It's uncomfortable, but necessary for her growth into full adulthood. So I think my point was that language can be quite telling and you seem to be leaning toward treating them more like kids and less like independent adults (it sounds like that's a pattern for your sister, too?). 

This probably just stood out because I literally just had to tell my 24yo that she was asking for us to do something unreasonable to bail her out of a situation that she was responsible for. When I said no, I too was told how stressed she was, that she would lose money, and might have to cancel plans. However, at no point did I feel responsible for those outcomes. It was frankly, not a hard boundary to hold because it was a ridiculous ask. Your niece's expectation strikes me as equally unreasonable. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

57 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Oh, of course I have. I meant that you seem to think of/treat them as children that need your rescuing and your language reflects that .

Exactly. She is an adult niece, not an adult “kid”. The relationship is that of niece. It adequately explains the generational difference and doesn’t infantilize her 

[Carol in Cal.]

I had never heard of a Snoo before this thread, but I remember something similar being advertised when I was pregnant.

I had been debating the crunchy granola urgings to cosleep with your newborn, vs. the ACOP warnings about it, and the main argument for it was that babies miss the womb for a while after they are born, are more secure, and better regulated if they hear the familiar sounds of their mother's body for the first few months.  I wasn't sure whether to believe this or not, and along came a snoo equivalent with studies that showed better and more lengthy sleep in a contraption that projected mom body sounds and responded somewhat to baby's stirring.  This did not convince me to buy the contraption; rather it convinced me that the folks who advocated for co-sleeping had a point.

But I can easily see that if you are trying to do the very best you can for a very wanted and unusually fragile newborn, the ads for a snoo could be very compelling, particularly since you just rent it for a while rather than purchasing it like the one when I was pregnant.  That's such a fraught time with a first baby, and I understand the niece renting this as, "I don't know much, and this is really hard, but I know for sure that I did the very best I could."

I think that that is misguided, and that babies are lot better off with their real mothers than a fake one like this, just like I think it's better to go look at your baby than to rely on a camera monitor, but still, I totally understand and sympathize with the impulse even though it turns out that maybe she can't afford it.