Duggar trial Dec. 7 recap

[Faith-manor]

Hi everyone,

KNWA has done a nice recap of the testimony today. There was only one witness, the tech expert for the defense. To be honest, I have run the recap by my husband a database architect with 35 years professional experience, and my nephew in cyber security for the army. Their consensus, for what it is worth, is that the "expert" isn't very experienced at all, and contradicted herself a lot. They felt that Clayman shredded her on cross examination, and that the real clincher was that she actually admitted she doesn't really know what she is talking about when it comes to Linux partitions and TOR, oh, and that a lot of her "report" was made from watching the prosecution experts testify, not from her own forensics exam, and she didn't even have the password to the machine in order to log in directly and see what was there. Now I know the jury may not be tech savvy, but I cannot imagine that they think this is reasonable doubt.

The defense rested. Not kidding. One witness. That's it. No rebuttal witnesses. Who knows why. If I had to hazard a guess it would be that they just didn't have anything else plausible to say with a defendant taking the 5th after their star witness got hammered.

It remains to be seen if the prosecution is going to bring in rebuttal witnesses or if they do to closing arguments. It is late in the day so if no witnesses are coming back to the stand, it is possible the judge will close up shop early so the jury can have a rest, and then have closing arguments and jury instructions tomorrow.

If there is a significant update after this, I will post much later. I am on my way out soon for a curbside pick up and a romantic date with Dh which means "Panera Bread drive through and eat it down by the river after picking up the Menards order." 😁 

https://www.nwahomepage.com/josh-duggar-trial/josh-duggar-trial-day-5-prosecution-hammers-credibility-of-defense-expert-witness-in-cross-examination/

Edited December 7, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Katy]

That’s hilarious. I saw KJ said their “expert” had a degree in psychology, not computer science. 

[Catwoman]

I don’t know, Faith — Panera AND Menard’s all on the same date? Are you sure your dh can handle that level of hot romance?

😉 

[BusyMom5]

I was just coming to check what happened today.  Is this normal?  They didn't even try to make a defense?  Weird!

[busymama7]

Why would they spend a lot of money on am attorney if that's all they could come up with? So strange!!!

[freesia]

From what I am reading on the Sun updates, the defense seems mostly focused on creating doubt over the possibility that it was downloaded by a remote user. So there is a defense. They just don’t have a lot to work with. They can’t show that anyone else was there or that he wasn’t there. So they seem to be saying there is reasonable doubt in that he downloaded it—rather someone else had it downloaded to his computer. 

[freesia]

Also, there were a couple of rebuttal witnesses, but now both sides have rested. Closing arguments will be tomorrow morning. 

[Ottakee]

2 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I was just coming to check what happened today.  Is this normal?  They didn't even try to make a defense?  Weird!

Sometimes there just isn't a defense.  In my ex case, they didn't even call any witnesses, just tried to cast doubt that he did it as maybe the victims downloaded the stuff on his computer, etc.

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I don’t know, Faith — Panera AND Menard’s all on the same date? Are you sure your dh can handle that level of hot romance?

😉

What are you? A prophet? A witch? 😂😂😂

So we went to Menards. To satisfy curiosity, Mark had ordered an O Scale Hershey's Chocolate Tanker car for a train set he is taking to Bama to put around the Christmas tree for N and C to play with. Pulled up, scan the pick up code, go to the door, they walk it out, easy peasy, five minutes. Plenty of time left for romance.

Off to Panera. Drive through was not busy. Didn't take long, headed to the river.

Ring ring ring. Boss, "Hey Mark, are you in front of your computer?" 

Mark: "No, I am out having a date with my wife."

Boss: "Well, we have a problem. Team X really screwed up, and if you can't help them trouble shoot it, they aren't going to be ready for review tomorrow, and release on the weekend."

Mark: "I am out with my wife. I worked the whole last weekend for team Y that screwed up. So I need to be NOT working tonight."

Boss: "I am begging you Mark. This is bad bad bad!"

Mark: Sigh. "It will take me 45 minutes to get home. I am not working the weekend, and I better get some extra vacation."

Boss: "okay."

Now he is working. So to summarize. We went to Menards. I ate my Chicken and Wild Rice soup in a moving vehicle, a STICK SHIFT moving vehicle instead of at the river park with all of the Christmas lights and in a parked car. Mark is eating his Baja bowl in front of his computer while conjuring diplomatic ways to tell people they train wrecked their project because "They don't listen", and I figure if he works really late, there isn't going to be any tEa, the other piece of the date night puzzle. I even said to him, " I guess there isn't going to be any tEa." He looked shocked and y'all I am not making this up, "But what happened to the electric tea pot? I just got a new box of Candy Cane Lane tea bags? Is the microwave broken too?????" He looked forlorn. 😄

 I had to explain to him again what tEa is on the board. 

So, I think we have to take Catwoman and toss her into the lake to see if she floats? 😂

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I was just coming to check what happened today.  Is this normal?  They didn't even try to make a defense?  Weird!

I think that once their forensic expert was debunked, and she was cornered on redirect and had to admit that the download could not be done remotely without someone in front of the computer to do some of it, they didn't have much they could say. She tried to make the case it was plausible to be done remotely, but then back tracked once she was asked tech questions she was not qualified to answer. And that was their whole thing "It happened, but it could have been anyone". However, payroll records show no one was working at the dealership that week during the three days the downloads took place, only Josh. And he was dumb enough to take pictures of the car lot and the office, even the computer and post it notes on his desk and sent them to Anna to " prove" he was working late, and all of them were time stamped during the downloads. It was pretty much a smoking gun as the saying goes.

And experts have to be paid to testify. If it isn't worth pursuing because your best witness got shredded on cross, then it probably isn't worth continuing. They couldn't bring character witnesses because if they did, the prosecution had Jill as a rebuttal as well as some others on the witness list. I can't imagine it would improve their case to have one of his victims on the stand.

My best guess is they hoped to use techie language to confuse the jury and create reasonable doubt, but the prosecution was so well prepped, they were able to make the attempt look inept and implausible. Of course it only takes one juror hold out to hang a jury so we just have to wait and see.

[Slache]

I'm not really following this, but does anyone know how his wife is doing?

[gardenmom5]

 

23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

So, I think we have to take Catwoman and toss her into the lake to see if she floats? 😂

Have you tried the scientific method?  does she weigh the same as a duck?

15 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 he was dumb enough to take pictures of the car lot and the office, even the computer and post it notes on his desk and sent them to Anna to " prove" he was working late, and all of them were time stamped during the downloads. It was pretty much a smoking gun as the saying goes.

 

I just love dumb criminals.  Sometimes, it's like shooting fish in a barrel . . . .

Edited December 8, 2021 by gardenmom5

[MercyA]

21 minutes ago, Slache said:

I'm not really following this, but does anyone know how his wife is doing?

All I know for sure is the little we can gather from the photos of them going to and from court every day. She's always holding his hand, sometimes with both of hers. She seems composed. She left the courtroom once during some graphic testimony about the CSA files. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by MercyA

[Faith-manor]

55 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

Have you tried the scientific method?  does she weigh the same as a duck?

I just love dumb criminals.  Sometimes, it's like shooting fish in a barrel . . . .

You know, it didn't occur to me. Catwoman, you have to present for the scale tomorrow! I have a friend with a nice Magpie, so we can see if they are equal.

And yes, dumb criminals. I mean when he actually said to the Homeland Security lead investigator, "Are you here because someone downloaded child p*rn?" I just about fell of my chair. Wow, just wow! 

[Faith-manor]

54 minutes ago, MercyA said:

All I know for sure is the little we can gather from the photos of them going to and from court every day. She's always holding his hand, sometimes with both of hers. She seems composed. She left the courtroom once during some graphic testimony about the CSA files. 

Yes, and we know she approached co-counsel when her personal email and phone number were on screen as evidence (emails Josh sent as well as texts that coincided with the downloads). So we don't know if she had been forewarned or not. Also the bank password was on display.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Faith-manor

[AbcdeDooDah]

I loved the part where Bush said it looked like a “company hat” in the reflection on the monitor around the time stuff was downloaded. Do go on . . . 

I bet she told the defense team never to call her again, lol.

[PeppermintPattie]

Carriejernagan1 says that Josh could be sentenced to 40 years - is this correct? Everything I have read said 20 was the maximum.

When do you think the verdict will come? I heard that each side gets 30 minutes for closing statements, so the jury should be able to begin deliberations before noon. I'm guessing that they'll come up with the verdict by the end of the day.

[Lisa]

The defense sounds like its a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

[busymama7]

44 minutes ago, PeppermintPattie said:

Carriejernagan1 says that Josh could be sentenced to 40 years - is this correct? Everything I have read said 20 was the maximum.

When do you think the verdict will come? I heard that each side gets 30 minutes for closing statements, so the jury should be able to begin deliberations before noon. I'm guessing that they'll come up with the verdict by the end of the day.

I think it's 20 years each count and he's being charged with 2 counts. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, PeppermintPattie said:

Carriejernagan1 says that Josh could be sentenced to 40 years - is this correct? Everything I have read said 20 was the maximum.

 

 

47 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

I think it's 20 years each count and he's being charged with 2 counts. 

He's only being tried on Federal Charges.  If the state wants him locked up longer - he can still have state charges levied against him, and a state sentence that won't be served until after he's finished his federal sentence.  But that is entirely up to the state whether to seek charges or not.  At least all of his kids will be well into adulthood before he's out.

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

He's only being tried on Federal Charges.  If the state wants him locked up longer - he can still have state charges levied against him, and a state sentence that won't be served until after he's finished his federal sentence.  But that is entirely up to the state whether to seek charges or not.  At least all of his kids will be well into adulthood before he's out.

But will likely have kids of their own. So here’s hoping they all come to terms with reality.

Honestly, I’ve only ever thought of their safety. I haven’t yet imagined how Anna explains all of this to them.

[Ottakee]

4 hours ago, busymama7 said:

I think it's 20 years each count and he's being charged with 2 counts. 

Yes, on cases like this the judge often has the sentences run consecutively....meaning one after another which would make 40 years.

The sentence for any state convictions would come after that.

[Ottakee]

24 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

But will likely have kids of their own. So here’s hoping they all come to terms with reality.

Honestly, I’ve only ever thought of their safety. I haven’t yet imagined how Anna explains all of this to them.

I will tell you, it is not easy...at all.  Mine were older when I had to tell them and it was one of the hardest things I have ever done in life.

[Faith-manor]

Judge Brooks, according to online statistics, seems to average 5-7 for first offense CSA charge if the felon has no other convictions. But, there is a point system and refusing to take a plea deal when "guilt is obvious" is points causing the sentence to increase from the minimum. A federal attorney over on reddit has been trying to explain to everyone because it is a math formula that judges rarely deviate from unless there are extenuating circumstances. The minimum on each is 5 and then we know he has a deviation higher due to not taking a plea. So 6-7 per count sounds like a good guess. Of course, the judge will get a report about Josh's behavior out on bond, and other considerations. Who knows, maybe there will be more points against him.

If he got 6-7 and not served concurrently, which seems to be common with federal judges, he would have to serve 12-14, 85% of which would then be 10.2 - 11.9 years (if I did my mental math correct without having imbibed an entire mug of coffee yet 😁). My understanding is it is common for them to serve the rest in a supervised setting like a halfway house because the feds are tougher about parole/probation than many states. It is possible that if the state is not happy with the federal sentence, they can then try him themselves. The feds have shown them the path forward, assuming this case ends in a guilty verdict, and he would be insane to NOT take a plea deal. He would have to serve the state sentence after the federal one unless a state judge gives him credit for time served in federal penitentiary. 

The youngest two will still be pretty vulnerable if he is home in 12 years. I really hope the judge gives him 16-20 years, but that may be a stretch because he may not have enough points against him due to being a first time offender, only two charges, and by all accounts having obeyed the terms of his bond. I don't know if his public confession to the molestations back in 2015 can be used against him since he was never charged.

[Faith-manor]

Also, is Cat here? We have to either weigh her against the duck, or she has to go fling herself face down in the lake and have an impartial observer report back her level of float worthiness. 😂😂😂

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Also, is Cat here? We have to either weigh her against the duck, or she has to go fling herself face down in the lake and have an impartial observer report back her level of float worthiness. 😂😂😂

We are going to have to do the lake-flinging thing because I’m not getting on a scale. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

Some have posited that 5-7 years,  served concurrently,  is the usual for first time offenders. Let's hope not. 

I hope he's convicted. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Honestly, I’ve only ever thought of their safety. I haven’t yet imagined how Anna explains all of this to them.

Especially since he's probably triangulated with the older ones against Anna.

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

We are going to have to do the lake-flinging thing because I’m not getting on a scale. 

Well, go get the neighbor to watch, toss yourself in, and assuming you float 😁 , come.back and report. You can decide if you want the title prophet, wizard, guru, or witch! 😂

[mmasc]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Some have posited that 5-7 years,  served concurrently,  is the usual for first time offenders. Let's hope not. 

I hope he's convicted. 

I sure hope it isn’t this. That would be so very disappointing. 😔

[Corraleno]

Well the only reason he can claim "first time offender" status is because his parents were able to hide the abuse of his sisters until the statute of limitations ran out. I would think that someone with a history of sexually assaulting children as young as 5 would be considered more of a danger to the public than someone who "only" downloads images. Does anyone know if the judge is allowed to take Josh's past history into account even if there wasn't a conviction? I'm hoping the fact he considered it relevant enough to allow Bobye Holt to testify in the trial means he will consider it in sentencing as well. I also hope that whatever point system the judge is using allows extra points (and years) for the truly horrific and violent nature of the material he downloaded.

[AbcdeDooDah]

I think the past abuse can be a aggravating factor for an enhancement because it was admitted into evidence. Not an expert, though. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[busymama7]

Question: have Jim Bob or Michelle ever come to the trial?    I think it's a shame if they haven't and heard the evidence.  

[freesia]

1 minute ago, busymama7 said:

Question: have Jim Bob or Michelle ever come to the trial?    I think it's a shame if they haven't and heard the evidence.  

Jim Bob came yesterday and is there today.  Michelle has not.

[busymama7]

Just now, freesia said:

Jim Bob came yesterday and is there today.  Michelle has not.

So to hear the defense? And that's it? Wasn't there to hear all the evidence against him?

[AbcdeDooDah]

1 minute ago, busymama7 said:

So to hear the defense? And that's it? Wasn't there to hear all the evidence against him?

He got to hear the highlights of the evidence during closing arguments.

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

So to hear the defense? And that's it? Wasn't there to hear all the evidence against him?

He would have heard the tale end of the defense--mostly the prosecutions cross-examination of the witness, the prosecutions rebuttal and then, today the closing arguements which have gone through the evidence including sharing some of it again.  So, it's a shame he hasn't heard it all, but so far he's heard enough to understand the argument and the evidence.

[AbcdeDooDah]

Jury apparently deliberating. 

[gardenmom5]

23 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

So to hear the defense? And that's it? Wasn't there to hear all the evidence against him?

Well, JB is of the position Josh is being persecuted for being a "christian" (I use that term extremely lightly.  He's more the ravening wolf in sheep's clothing variety.)

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Well, JB is of the position Josh is being persecuted for being a "christian" (I use that term extremely lightly.  He's more the ravening wolf in sheep's clothing variety.)

Yes, it's not like Josh did anything horrifically perverted or anything. The feds are just after him because he's a "Christian." 

I would really like to know what kind of skeletons JimBob has in his closet.

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, it's not like Josh did anything horrifically perverted or anything. The feds are just after him because he's a "Christian." 

I would really like to know what kind of skeletons JimBob has in his closet.

Well, even before I heard about Josh, he made me feel slimy.  So, yeah . . . . . . 

[prairiewindmomma]

Verdict: guilty on both counts