Estranged adult children

[catz]

14 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I think that’s completely true. It’s just that sometimes the one who severed ties is the one that refuses to engage in a 2-way relationship and has mental/emotional health issues.  Sucks. But there’s the truth of it in many cases. I would not presume it’s the family they’ve severed ties with that has the issues. 

I do agree.

But at the same time, I know plenty of cases in people I know that have not great adult relationships with their kids where parents ignored and or minimized/poo-pooed issues with teenagers when they should have been actively working to get the kid and possibly family help when they could have been an active part of the process.  I get that it is exhausting.  My 2nd born is 17 now and pretty reasonable but whew we had a couple years with her that required constant checking in and conversation and rivers of empathy and reframing.  Not  every parent has the bandwidth or desire to do that kind of thing long term with a prickly teen.  It's a heck of a lot easier not to.  With my own kid I think anxiety can just come out as anger.  Now she is much better at recognizing that anxiety and verbalizing it and dealing with it in a more positive way.   She also has had a tendency to suck up every one else's drama.  I was a very similar teen actually.  And don't get me wrong, I know I'm not done with this kid, who knows.  When teens/young adults just hear they are wrong repeatedly and their feelings aren't valid, I get why there's not much impetus to put effort into that relationship.  

I honestly don't think I know anyone who has completely cut off parents.  Minimized contact and gone to a pretty surface level relationship with clear boundaries for their own sanity and mental health, sure.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[gardenmom5]

56 minutes ago, Legomom said:

Very interesting topic. I have been on these boards for over 10 years and I have been surprised at how many people « cut off » their parents. In addition, I have noticed there seems to be an even greater trend for cutting off in-laws and I have wondered how this would play out as the children of the group become adults and then continue this practice. This article in the Atlantic answered some of my questions. It appears that it is in part due to a major cultural shift regarding the role of families and the view of duty  to a family.  In a nutshell the newer generations place a higher value on personal fulfillment than familial loyalty. I am definitely from the older generation here so I had not experienced this growing up. The article gives insights into this trend. Well worth the read.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/617612/

I belong to the older generation on these boards.

I find the claim that: .....a major cultural shift regarding the role of families and the view of duty  to a family......newer generations place a higher value on personal fulfillment than familial loyalty. . . . .. . offensive.     Family loyalty does NOT require people to submit to abuse.  Most of the people I know who have cut off family members have done so because their family member was abusive.  I only know of one case where a kid cut off their parents because the  kid chose a very different life path than the parents.  (that kid is now relying on those parents to catch-them, and help them back onto their feet, after their life choices blew up in their face.)

Older generations submitted to parental abuse because it was expected, to their detriment.  Even if those 'children" were grandparents themselves and it was the great-grandparents who were perpetrating the abuse.  Frankly - it is *honoring* an abusive parent, to ***refuse*** to allow them to abuse you or anyone else you can protect.

[Amy Gen]

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Frankly - it is *honoring* an abusive parent, to ***refuse*** to allow them to abuse you or anyone else you can protect.

20 years ago, when I cut off my mother, I asked my priest who was also my mother’s priest about that scripture. He told me I was absolutely the hero for breaking the cycle and the highest honor I could give my mother was to have a healthy family and raise emotionally healthy children. 
 

He did tell me that it wouldn’t be good for me to try and damage her relationship with other people. I never tried to get my siblings to cut her off and there were people who “took my mother’s side” at the time because I wouldn’t talk trash about her to anyone but she sure told plenty of lies about my husband and myself. 
 

Now those people have had enough time to see her for who she is. They regret horribly not being part of my life for the last 20 years and for not getting to be close to my children. But I feel like I maintained my integrity no matter who it cost me. 

[Murphy101]

48 minutes ago, Farrar said:

You know, a lot of this discussion seems to imply or assume that one side of the equation is to blame. I'm not sure that's always true.

I don’t think it’s blame per se so much as recognizing that some people are best loved from a distance.  Or that some people are so mentally or emotionally struggling that they push you far away and all you can do is keeping loving them and hope some day they reach out again.

I know some people get caught up in blame. But I don’t. I think blame is mostly a waste of time and usually doesn’t change what, if anything, I can do about the situation.  

39 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I do agree.

But at the same time, I know plenty of cases in people I know that have not great adult relationships with their kids where parents ignored and or minimized/poo-pooed issues with teenagers when they should have been actively working to get the kid and possibly family help when.  

You know any decent parent in that situation is laying in bed every night recounting a million little things that typically didn’t mean a damn thing but now they wonder what if they’d handled it differently. What if they’d seen all the signs that are obvious with 20/20 hindsight but seemed like totally typical teen crap at the time. And don’t forget it probably was totally typical teen crap too. Most of the time it really isn’t a big deal. Except when for that 1/10 kid it’s something to add to the sleepless nights years later.

I’m not on any estranged parent forums. That sounds like a nightmare. *shudder*

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think it’s blame per se so much as recognizing that some people are best loved from a distance.  Or that some people are so mentally or emotionally struggling that they push you far away and all you can do is keeping loving them and hope some day they reach out again.

I know some people get caught up in blame. But I don’t. I think blame is mostly a waste of time and usually doesn’t change what, if anything, I can do about the situation.  

You know any decent parent in that situation is laying in bed every night recounting a million little things that typically didn’t mean a damn thing but now they wonder what if they’d handled it differently. What if they’d seen all the signs that are obvious with 20/20 hindsight but seemed like totally typical teen crap at the time. And don’t forget it probably was totally typical teen crap too. Most of the time it really isn’t a big deal. Except when for that 1/10 kid it’s something to add to the sleepless nights years later.

I’m not on any estranged parent forums. That sounds like a nightmare. *shudder*

Qft. Ugh.  

[Not_a_Number]

56 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I belong to the older generation on these boards.

I find the claim that: .....a major cultural shift regarding the role of families and the view of duty  to a family......newer generations place a higher value on personal fulfillment than familial loyalty. . . . .. . offensive.     Family loyalty does NOT require people to submit to abuse.  Most of the people I know who have cut off family members have done so because their family member was abusive.  I only know of one case where a kid cut off their parents because the  kid chose a very different life path than the parents.  (that kid is now relying on those parents to catch-them, and help them back onto their feet, after their life choices blew up in their face.)

Older generations submitted to parental abuse because it was expected, to their detriment.  Even if those 'children" were grandparents themselves and it was the great-grandparents who were perpetrating the abuse.  Frankly - it is *honoring* an abusive parent, to ***refuse*** to allow them to abuse you or anyone else you can protect.

This. I wound up severely limiting contact with my mom after I watched her with my older girl. I did NOT want a person in my life who got into power struggles with a toddler because the toddler wanted to play with her friend instead of her. I did NOT want my kids to have a grandma who held them down tight when reading to them so that they couldn't escape from her demonstration of being a "good grandmother." I did NOT want my mom to spend much time with my kids having watched how she treated my much-younger sister. 

I think the shifting view of duty is about feeling more duty to the next generation than the previous generation. Frankly, I think that's how it SHOULD be. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

You never know.  Seriously, you can be a very observant person and around others on a very regular basis and you still don't really know what goes on behind their closed doors when you're not there.  It could a be a parent problem, it could be a child problem, it could be a some of each problem.  Unless you have secretly placed video cameras inside their home and regularly review the footage, you don't know.

We live in a polarized culture fueled by all or nothing thinking, and some subcultures and personality types are more prone to it. The culture also is increasingly aware of genuinely toxic behaviors, so victims feel more empowered now than ever before to establish and enforce boundaries. Add to that mental illness that can fuel the toxic behavior and/or imagined victimization. Parents are better off conscientiously doing the best they can and understanding their limitations.

I agree that the culture is increasingly aware of genuinely toxic behaviors etc.  And yes, there are probably things I don't see.  But I also think the people influencing young adults to write "you are dead to me" letters are only listening to one side.  And that being the case, they aren't really acting with the writer's best interests in mind.

The thing is, once you influence someone to cut off their whole family, you have a lot more control over them.  I don't think that's healthy either.

I feel badly for the mom in this story, but I also worry about the young adult.  I absolutely don't trust the people who are influencing her now.  I really hope I'm wrong about that.

[SKL]

And don't get me wrong ... I have never kept up regular communication with my parents ... I answer the phone when they call (which is a few times a year), I visit several times a year (I live 1 hour away), and during Covid, I started calling because I couldn't visit.  People might think we don't have a good relationship, but we do.  It works for us.  I have siblings who have less contact, and siblings who talk to my folks pretty much every day.  It's all good.

Decades ago, one of my siblings was receiving mental health counseling [from a non-licensed but paid individual] which I believed was detrimental.  A lot of it ended up being about what was wrong with our parents.  My sister tried to get me on that wavelength.  Instead, I pointed out something she had apparently never thought of - that parents are human.  Part of growing up is giving up the unrealistic, unfair expectation that parents do everything perfectly or pay the price.  [I will add that the "counselor" put my sister into bankruptcy with her fees, without ever improving her mental health.]

I dunno, maybe it's that I'm not a super emotional person.  Maybe I'm the weird one.

[Legomom]

This quote from the article I referred to above gets to the point I wanted to highlight. The key is that it acknowledges there are « less grave scenarios » that are causing estrangements:  « There are good and bad features of modern family life, in which relations are often based more on ties of affection than on duty or obedience. In these times, the people we choose to be close to represent not only a preference, but a profound statement of our identities. We are freed to surround ourselves with those who reflect our deepest values—parents included. We feel empowered to call on loved ones to be more sensitive to our needs, our emotions, and our aspirations. This freedom enables us to become untethered and protected from hurtful or abusive family members.

Yet in less grave scenarios our American love affair with the needs and rights of the individual conceals how much sorrow we create for those we leave behind. We may see cutting off family members as courageous rather than avoidant or selfish. We can convince ourselves that it’s better to go it alone than to do the work it takes to resolve conflict. Some problems may be irresolvable, but there are also relationships that don’t need to be lost forever. »

 

[SKL]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

This is a good read: 

https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

I read this, and while I guess it may be helpful for parents who really want to fix the problems, it would probably encourage estranged children to make the estrangement total and permanent.  It assumes estrangement is always the fault of a neurotic parent who will never learn.  To me, just another instance of black and white thinking.  But as I've never been estranged from family, maybe I just don't get it.

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

You know, a lot of this discussion seems to imply or assume that one side of the equation is to blame. I'm not sure that's always true.

I definitely share some of the blame for a tense relationship with my dad. There was a period of time where I couldn't speak to him without it turning into a screaming match.  I was definitely mean at times, and after the last 18 months, I regret some of my actions. We had a huuuuge blowout and it left me hyperreactive for a long time. 

[Slache]

44 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I definitely share some of the blame for a tense relationship with my dad. There was a period of time where I couldn't speak to him without it turning into a screaming match.  I was definitely mean at times, and after the last 18 months, I regret some of my actions. We had a huuuuge blowout and it left me hyperreactive for a long time. 

This might not be the case with you at all, but have you heard of reactive abuse? It's when someone intentionally treats you terribly until you blow up so they can hold it against you. "I may have hurt you 100 times but remember the time you screamed at me in the kitchen? That still hurts and you owe me for that."

[Laura Corin]

7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

This is a good read: 

https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

Fascinating. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Shoeless]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

This might not be the case with you at all, but have you heard of reactive abuse? It's when someone intentionally treats you terribly until you blow up so they can hold it against you. "I may have hurt you 100 times but remember the time you screamed at me in the kitchen? That still hurts and you owe me for that."

I haven't heard the term before, but I had an awful high school and college boyfriend that did things like that. 

With my dad, I had 40 years of squishing myself down into an diminished version of myself so his mean, insecure wife wouldn't feel threatened by me.  When wife #3, (also mean and insecure), came after me and threatened my kid and dad looked the other way to save his own skin, I lost it.  Forty years of pent up "...and ANOTHER THING..." came out. Like, I did nothing but rant and yell for a solid 2 years about every single thing he'd ever done wrong in life.  

And what's amazing is that he never, ever apologized. Not once. The best I got was "Well, if that happened, then I'm sorry".  

I do think he sometimes feels a little sorry for himself, like "Oh, I have this difficult daughter, woe is me!". 🤷‍♀️  

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I haven't heard the term before, but I had an awful high school and college boyfriend that did things like that. 

With my dad, I had 40 years of squishing myself down into an diminished version of myself so his mean, insecure wife wouldn't feel threatened by me.  When wife #3, (also mean and insecure), came after me and threatened my kid and dad looked the other way to save his own skin, I lost it.  Forty years of pent up "...and ANOTHER THING..." came out. Like, I did nothing but rant and yell for a solid 2 years about every single thing he'd ever done wrong in life.  

And what's amazing is that he never, ever apologized. Not once. The best I got was "Well, if that happened, then I'm sorry".  

I do think he sometimes feels a little sorry for himself, like "Oh, I have this difficult daughter, woe is me!". 🤷‍♀️  

Yeah. DH sent an email to his mom saying we are taking a break from you because of A, B & C, and she responded with "But you haven't told me what I've done." It was kind of amazing.

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

Yeah. DH sent an email to his mom saying we are taking a break from you because of A, B & C, and she responded with "But you haven't told me what I've done." It was kind of amazing.

In addition to everything else, my mother was a compulsive liar.  Once, I confronted her with a huge lie and she paused for a moment, laughed, and said, "I guess you caught me" and then expected everything to just go on as usual and was angry when I told her it would take me a while to process and get over the lie.  

 

[Laura Corin]

I suspect that the experts on all this are probably care home staff.  I'm sure that every day they see residents who seem perfectly pleasant but whose children mysteriously don't come to see them, or seem reserved or distant when they do.  I'm sure the staff are pretty good at working out that the gracious person in front of them might have displayed a very different persona to their children, or that the reserved adult child might have taken out their demons on their parent.  I imagine interesting lunchroom conversations among the staff.

My mother - not abusive per se but conditioned by life experiences into manipulation as a 'survival' technique - is all sweetness with the staff at her care home.  She doesn't need to manipulate them - manipulation for her is not a pleasure but an emergency tool, I believe - because they are paid to do what she wants.

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

I read this, and while I guess it may be helpful for parents who really want to fix the problems, it would probably encourage estranged children to make the estrangement total and permanent.  It assumes estrangement is always the fault of a neurotic parent who will never learn.  To me, just another instance of black and white thinking.  But as I've never been estranged from family, maybe I just don't get it.

The  part I found interesting was the parents were not listening to the complaints of their children.  I still don’t believe many such situations require cutting off.  And I have seen some difficult parents.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Legomom said:

This quote from the article I referred to above gets to the point I wanted to highlight. The key is that it acknowledges there are « less grave scenarios » that are causing estrangements:  « There are good and bad features of modern family life, in which relations are often based more on ties of affection than on duty or obedience. In these times, the people we choose to be close to represent not only a preference, but a profound statement of our identities. We are freed to surround ourselves with those who reflect our deepest values—parents included. We feel empowered to call on loved ones to be more sensitive to our needs, our emotions, and our aspirations. This freedom enables us to become untethered and protected from hurtful or abusive family members.

Yet in less grave scenarios our American love affair with the needs and rights of the individual conceals how much sorrow we create for those we leave behind. We may see cutting off family members as courageous rather than avoidant or selfish. We can convince ourselves that it’s better to go it alone than to do the work it takes to resolve conflict. Some problems may be irresolvable, but there are also relationships that don’t need to be lost forever. »

 

I must have missed this article….yes I totally agree.  There are so so many bad counselors out there.  Not just unhelpful but outright dangerous.  And online forums can feed any narrative until one can be convinced of a lot of things that are just not true.  Or healthy.

[1234]

I don’t think there’s anything healthy with a generation of people who stick by their parents no matter what just because they’re family. I’m from that generation and grew up super close to all of my family. I played that game for so long and all it’s done is damage. 

Now that I’ve been able to actually step away from my family, I’ve been able to be honest about them and they’re not great. There’s a whole list of things at this point that I know weren’t ok but I’ve always just let go because she’s my mom. Nothing shifted for me until she started treating my dc the way she treated me. I was able to instantly know it wasn’t ok and as a parent I wasn’t going to allow it. There are many things I can write off as her just doing her best and not knowing better but there are too many things that she definitely knew were wrong and hurtful and just didn’t care. She seems to be all about an image she’s created at this point and I’m supposed to keep quiet on family things cause they’re private, and that’s what I was always told growing up. Now I think there was more to keeping quiet about many things because she just knew they were wrong. 

Are this point we have no relationship solely because my adult dc don’t want a relationship with them. They’ve tried to guilt me into manipulating my dc to talk to them again. There’s nothing healthy about that. They also apparently don’t actually care about me at all if they don’t want a relationship with me that doesn’t include my dc. 

[regentrude]

Just for perspective: it can also go the other way around: a parent cutting off their adult children because parent dislikes something about child's lifestyle or child's ideas about eldercare, and both parties being incapable of having a rational discussion about it.
I have seen that play out in people close to me.

[sheryl]

16 hours ago, Farrar said:

My brother is mostly estranged from my mother. It's seriously one of my greatest fears as a parent in part because I've watched that unfold.

I agree with others who are saying that it's hard to fully control or predict and it does seem to be getting more common. I've seen statistics that say it is - there was an article in The Economist about it a year or two ago, I think that had some numbers about it.

I also agree that there's no way to know what the real story is unless you're in the thick of it.

In my family's case, my mother was a loving but imperfect parent to my brother. She made a lot of mistakes but also did the best she could to parent as a single mom to a rambunctious, sensory seeking, slightly difficult kid. My brother has done a lot of drugs (he's in the legal pot business now) and I don't think that's helping things, honestly. He has a version of things that is so far apart from anyone else's. My mom can be... annoying sometimes. But she's a million miles away from being a monster. He treats her horribly. Both overtly (calls her names, screams at her, that sort of thing... sometimes she takes the bait and screams back... sigh) and sometimes more covertly (the last time she spent a holiday with him, it was New Year's and his in laws were also there - they all did a giant Christmas gift exchange - there were dozens and dozens of presents including to and front all the adults and my mother brought presents - big ones especially with her fixed income - for them and their kids - they got her nothing at all and when she got home they had sent her a card and a little thing with soap... I was pretty shocked). She keeps trying to make it work and then having to back off. Most recently, she went down there and he let his almost 5 yo scream mean things at her after she let him win at hopscotch but apparently not by enough and he wasn't satisfied. Then he got all worked up by it and picked up the screaming and called her some really vile things in front of the kids. He waited for his wife not to be home, of course. Then he recorded videos of his preschool age children chastising her for leaving and texted them to her and me (I wasn't even there! Leave me out of it!). That was the part that was really unhinged to me. Like, who uses their little kids like that? Anyway, they're not speaking again now. I think it's for the best. I'm dreading having to deal with him whenever she dies. That's when she started talking about cutting him out of her will.

This is very sensitive and I hesitate replying BUT -  wth are you not intervening with your brother NOW on your Mom's behalf?  She's your Mom too.  That may be considered "elder abuse" in which that is a legal case.  NOT that you are jumping at the bit to pursue legal action with your brother but C'MON.....................

I hope you are NOT offended by this as that is NOT my intention.  I feel badly for your Mom and would step in if I could.

[Not_a_Number]

5 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Fascinating. 

I will say that it rings absolutely true to me. I'm sure that if my mom posted on those parents' forums, she would have NO idea why I'm not talking to her as much, and if she tried to come up with something, it'd be something petty and self-serving. 

I've tried to talk to her many, many times over the years, but the layers of defensiveness and insecurity are absolutely impossible to penetrate. She literally doesn't hear me if I try to talk to her about anything she does or has ever done that bothers me or has ever bothered me. I've long since stopped trying, although the result of that has been that I treat her like a child: I set my boundaries and then I enforce them rigidly and, if required, unpleasantly. 

It's all very hard. I don't know how it looks to people on the outside, but I would guess her friends have no idea what my side of the story might be 😉 . 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, sheryl said:

This is very sensitive and I hesitate replying BUT -  wth are you not intervening with your brother NOW on your Mom's behalf?  She's your Mom too.  That may be considered "elder abuse" in which that is a legal case.  NOT that you are jumping at the bit to pursue legal action with your brother but C'MON.....................

I hope you are NOT offended by this as that is NOT my intention.  I feel badly for your Mom and would step in if I could.

The answer to your question was contained in the post you quoted.

[SKL]

I understand the need to prevent abuse, but when it comes to disagreements and annoyances, I really don't understand the need for adults to tell their parents what they don't like about their opinions or present/past actions.  Why aren't parents allowed to be imperfect?  Do we really want our kids to grow up and lecture us about everything we ever did?  I hear enough of that from my 14yos, I don't need to hear it for the rest of my life.  And no, I'm not ever going to apologize for feeding them organic food, taking them to church, teaching them math in the summer, or buying them the clothes they preferred to wear at the time.

We wouldn't do that to friends/acquaintances, even knowing they are usually on good behavior around us.  We saw our parents in their most human state as kids, because it was their own house after all.  Is that really their fault?  Do we go on stage when we become parents and stay on stage for the next 18+ years in our own homes?

It isn't even about respect, it's about futility.  All the complaining in the world isn't going to make the recipient perfect, and it's often just going to make things worse.

The human race managed to survive thousands/millions of years without "getting everything off our chests."  What changed recently?  Maybe the fact that people are now being paid to advise adults to hold their parents to unrealistic standards.

[Kassia]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

It's all very hard. I don't know how it looks to people on the outside, but I would guess her friends have no idea what my side of the story might be 😉 . 

This is my issue, too, and one that is hard for me to get over.  I know people think I'm cruel or insensitive, but they have absolutely no idea what I went through with my mother or what me and my family have gone through with my in-laws.  

My MIL's tactic if we ever try to talk to her about anything is to immediately resort to, "Fine, I'm a terrible mom.  I'm sorry I've been so awful.  blah blah blah." There's just no way to communicate or reason with her.  And she just backstabs us to the whole family telling them how terrible we are to her and that has caused problems.  Dysfunctional families are so hard.  

 

 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

This is my issue, too, and one that is hard for me to get over.  I know people think I'm cruel or insensitive, but they have absolutely no idea what I went through with my mother or what me and my family have gone through with my in-laws.  

My MIL's tactic if we ever try to talk to her about anything is to immediately resort to, "Fine, I'm a terrible mom.  I'm sorry I've been so awful.  blah blah blah." There's just no way to communicate or reason with her.  And she just backstabs us to the whole family telling them how terrible we are to her and that has caused problems.  Dysfunctional families are so hard.  

 

 

What do you want her to do instead?  Serious question.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

This is my issue, too, and one that is hard for me to get over.  I know people think I'm cruel or insensitive, but they have absolutely no idea what I went through with my mother or what me and my family have gone through with my in-laws.  

My MIL's tactic if we ever try to talk to her about anything is to immediately resort to, "Fine, I'm a terrible mom.  I'm sorry I've been so awful.  blah blah blah." There's just no way to communicate or reason with her.  And she just backstabs us to the whole family telling them how terrible we are to her and that has caused problems.  Dysfunctional families are so hard.  

Yep, that sounds familiar, lol. Any kind of criticism or suggestions or request is met with massive amounts of self-pity and minimization. And of course, that means that nothing ever changes -- if someone doesn't even hear your requests, they obviously aren't carrying them out! 

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

 

Decades ago, one of my siblings was receiving mental health counseling [from a non-licensed but paid individual] which I believed was detrimental.  A lot of it ended up being about what was wrong with our parents.   

There are definitely mental health counselors (from psychiatrists to social workers) - who will automatically blame everything on the parent. 

 My friend's daughter was suicidal and out of control.  Many bad days.  Her psychiatrist blamed everything on her parents, and had gotten her to severely limit contact.  For two years.  When she mentioned terrible headaches, the psychiatrist mocked her for thinking she had a brain tumor.  Well, she *did* have a brain tumor - a massive one.  diagnosed after she failed very basic neurological tests that every dr is trained to do. (the surgery was very risky, but the tumor would have killed her.)  After it was removed, she was back to the delightful daughter they had before the tumor ever started growing.

(She didn't file a malpractice claim against the psychiatrist because she just wanted it to be over.)

5 hours ago, Slache said:

This might not be the case with you at all, but have you heard of reactive abuse? It's when someone intentionally treats you terribly until you blow up so they can hold it against you. "I may have hurt you 100 times but remember the time you screamed at me in the kitchen? That still hurts and you owe me for that."

My grandmother would do this.  She would set up traps, so after a 'victim' walked into it,  she could slice and dice me (I'm sure she did it to others too.).  Then she'd have this very self satisfied smirk. and 'laugh'.  what the &)(*_(*^Y&( kind of parent/grandparent  does that to their child/grandchild????? 

when I was in my very early 20s, I caught myself doing it to her (and ONLY her).  I wanted her to get some of her own, back. For her to hurt as much as she'd hurt me.  After I realized what I was doing, I stopped.  I didn't want to be that kind of person .

(there were times my mother did it too. - bullied me until I cried. And she would look satisfied with herself too.

[sheryl]

20 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

The answer to your question was contained in the post you quoted.

Thanks, did not see reference. 

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

What do you want her to do instead?  Serious question.

One could try explaining oneself.

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

I understand the need to prevent abuse, but when it comes to disagreements and annoyances, I really don't understand the need for adults to tell their parents what they don't like about their opinions or present/past actions.  Why aren't parents allowed to be imperfect?  

Parents who are sincerely  trying their best, and sincerely love their children - do not parent the same way as dysfunctional parents.  And as kids become adults, they will usually have more appreciation for those parents who loved them, and did their best.  Some need to see what dysfunctional families are like to more fully appreciate their parents.

  Most of the discussion, is about dysfunctional (or abusive) parents.

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

What do you want her to do instead?  Serious question.

not play a martyr.  That's not a serious admission of wrong doing, that is a ploy some manipulative people do to shut down communication - and *avoid* accountability.  (my grandmother was always: 'you're killing me". if we ever said something she didn't like.)

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

What do you want her to do instead?  Serious question.

Depends on the precise conversation, I suppose? Most of my conversations with my mom involved me actually asking her to stop doing certain things or start doing certain things or otherwise make some small adjustments to help us get along. I suppose it would have even been better if she had said she couldn't stop, but that she could see how what I'm saying could be annoying. 

Generically, what I tended to want was some acknowledgment of my right to an opinion, lol. As is, I got the strong impression that she couldn't in any way engage with my internal life, which was very depressing. It's sad having a mother who doesn't really see you as a person but only as an outgrowth of yourself. 

[Farrar]

20 minutes ago, sheryl said:

This is very sensitive and I hesitate replying BUT -  wth are you not intervening with your brother NOW on your Mom's behalf?  She's your Mom too.  That may be considered "elder abuse" in which that is a legal case.  NOT that you are jumping at the bit to pursue legal action with your brother but C'MON.....................

I hope you are NOT offended by this as that is NOT my intention.  I feel badly for your Mom and would step in if I could.

No, that's totally okay.

He "just" screamed at her a bunch. Definitely nothing legally actionable. She's healthy and capable of leaving, which after a brief period of trying to deal with things, she did. I chatted with her on her drive on to make sure she was okay to drive. She lives about two hours away, so it's not like they see each other often. They didn't see each other once during the pandemic (he was angry at us for not visiting and for asking them to get Covid testing if we visited... sigh). This was their attempt to re-establish a bit, and obviously it didn't go well. I doubt she'll see him again in person for a good while and so the worst he can do is text nastygrams sometimes.

I don't find my brother to be a rational person when it comes to me or my mother. I refuse to engage deeper with him at all at this point. If I tried to tell him what he had done was inappropriate, he'd just let loose on me and how horrible I am and how I don't understand the whole story. One of the times they had a blow up like this, like four years ago, I heard both sides and it was all a bit bonkers. Petty on both sides. But then on my brother's part it turned into him berating her for every little thing ever. Some of which is legit, but is like, look, she is imperfect and sorry for that. But some of which is just out there rewriting of history.

My intervening is that I've spent the last couple of years as things have degraded slowly trying to talk my mother through how to stop responding, stop falling for his crap, stop losing it and saying nasty things back after getting pushed over the edge. It's mostly kinda working. I feel like that's why she left. I can help her - she's a rational person! I can't do anything about him.

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

The  part I found interesting was the parents were not listening to the complaints of their children.  I still don’t believe many such situations require cutting off.  And I have seen some difficult parents.

If the behavior is abusive and the parents refuse to acknowledge they’re being abusive to adults and stop it, the option is to: 

1) let grandchildren witness their parents being abused and allowing it, teaching kids abuse is okay, OR

2) teaching them abuse isn’t okay and shouldn’t be put up with, and it’s better to walk away than let the abuser continue to abuse you. 

I’d rather teach my children the latter. 

[Kassia]

53 minutes ago, SKL said:

What do you want her to do instead?  Serious question.

 

 

41 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

not play a martyr.  That's not a serious admission of wrong doing, that is a ploy some manipulative people do to shut down communication - and *avoid* accountability.  (my grandmother was always: 'you're killing me". if we ever said something she didn't like.)

Gardenmom5 got it right.  MIL is very immature and can't be reasoned with.  Instead of discussing an issue, she starts to cry OR she gets mad and has a tantrum and tries to shut down communication by saying she's a terrible mother.  At that point, the conversation goes from trying to explain/discuss something to consoling her.  She never has to take responsibility for anything by doing this.  
 

[Slache]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

The  part I found interesting was the parents were not listening to the complaints of their children.  I still don’t believe many such situations require cutting off.  And I have seen some difficult parents.

One thing you have to remember is that abuse victims are conditioned to not name our abuse out loud. I've probably voiced 5% of what my MIL has done to me and 1% of what my mom has. Normally if I say it out loud people assume I'm lying. A father sexually assaulting his daughter is considered believable and a reason to cut him off, but if I told you my MIL beat her own face with a block of cheese and told people I did it so she could have my kids it sounds insane. Everything from the lie, to staring me in the eye while she did it to using a block of cheese instead of something that would actually bruise, the whole thing is just weird. Holding my hands so hard her nails left dents while she cried at me with her eyes open telling me she loved me and begging me not to ever move out of her home. Testing food allergies because she knows her DIL's are liars and putting a child in the hospital because of it. People don't believe these things and it ruins relationships. It's easier to say "She doesn't respect our parenting or marriage, constantly tries to intervene and we find it overwhelming," because at it's core that's what she's doing, and it's the most overwhelming thing I've ever faced.

39 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

My grandmother...

I am so sorry. And boy do I know that grin. I hate that grin.

[Janeway]

I know my 17 yr old has been reading a lot online, especially Reddit, but there have been other places. Then he started calling me Karen and making remarks about me, like I am racist, I get all my information from facebook, etc. If I get on his case for anything, he calls me a Karen. I get the usual sexist remarks from todays generation. There are also religion remarks. It is such pig junk. He has been disciplined out of this, but mostly, he is just not allowed to. I am sure part of it just lingers there in his thoughts. I will be limiting internet usage much more with the rest of the kids. If you go to Reddit and read the junk..and I hear the stuff on TikTok is worse...you will see where she got her terrible behavior from.

[SKL]

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Depends on the precise conversation, I suppose? Most of my conversations with my mom involved me actually asking her to stop doing certain things or start doing certain things or otherwise make some small adjustments to help us get along. I suppose it would have even been better if she had said she couldn't stop, but that she could see how what I'm saying could be annoying. 

Generically, what I tended to want was some acknowledgment of my right to an opinion, lol. As is, I got the strong impression that she couldn't in any way engage with my internal life, which was very depressing. It's sad having a mother who doesn't really see you as a person but only as an outgrowth of yourself. 

I guess I see effectively engaging with one's internal life as a nice-to-have from an adult's parent.

Personally, for me, my "internal life" is generally not to be accessed by my parents.  I am good with just finding the common ground that exists.

I don't think parents need to be soul-mates.

I do think my parents see me as a person, and I see my kids as people, but there are still many things we don't agree on, and some things we don't entirely like about each other.  That's part of being a separate person, right?

A lot of this conversation is difficult because there are not many specifics.  Like, are we talking about our moms wearing more perfume than we like, or telling our kids we suck as parents?  Being habitually late, or forging checks on our account?  Giving our kids cookies, or having their nose pierced?

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I know my 17 yr old has been reading a lot online, especially Reddit, but there have been other places. Then he started calling me Karen and making remarks about me, like I am racist, I get all my information from facebook, etc. If I get on his case for anything, he calls me a Karen. I get the usual sexist remarks from todays generation. There are also religion remarks. It is such pig junk. He has been disciplined out of this, but mostly, he is just not allowed to. I am sure part of it just lingers there in his thoughts. I will be limiting internet usage much more with the rest of the kids. If you go to Reddit and read the junk..and I hear the stuff on TikTok is worse...you will see where she got her terrible behavior from.

You know, they do move out eventually. What is the point of restricting Internet, exactly? That won’t help in the long run.

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Kassia said:

 

 

Gardenmom5 got it right.  MIL is very immature and can't be reasoned with.  Instead of discussing an issue, she starts to cry OR she gets mad and has a tantrum and tries to shut down communication by saying she's a terrible mother.  At that point, the conversation goes from trying to explain/discuss something to consoling her.  She never has to take responsibility for anything by doing this.  
 

I have heard several things you do not want her to do/say, but my question is, what do you want her to say instead?

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have heard several things you do not want her to do/say, but my question is, what do you want her to say instead?

Well, I’m not Kassia, but I answered what I’d want.

[SKL]

18 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I know my 17 yr old has been reading a lot online, especially Reddit, but there have been other places. Then he started calling me Karen and making remarks about me, like I am racist, I get all my information from facebook, etc. If I get on his case for anything, he calls me a Karen. I get the usual sexist remarks from todays generation. There are also religion remarks. It is such pig junk. He has been disciplined out of this, but mostly, he is just not allowed to. I am sure part of it just lingers there in his thoughts. I will be limiting internet usage much more with the rest of the kids. If you go to Reddit and read the junk..and I hear the stuff on TikTok is worse...you will see where she got her terrible behavior from.

One of mine really has too much internet exposure also.  I am not sure exactly how to address this.  I would rather teach her how to be a critical reader of online stuff, but it's hard to know how well she is doing that, and I don't have the time or energy to monitor everything she reads.  I am looking forward to the start of school and marching band to help keep her mind busy on better things.  Though, they hear a lot of crap at school (from peers) also ....

[Lecka]

I would guess actual remorse and then change, instead of just a performance of remorse with no intent whatsoever of changing.  
 

And then the performance involves an apology to her because look how upset she has gotten!

 

 

[Lecka]

never mind

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Lecka

[SKL]

And part of the issue with young adults is that they don't understand the context of what their parents did, because they themselves haven't had the same stressors, at least not yet.  In the OP situation, the young adult has no plans to be a parent and I don't know if she ever plans to marry.  How can she understand the limitations of a young parent trying to raise kids (3 teens [one with special needs] and a tot and sometimes grandkids), care for Grandma with dementia, hold a job, battle physical problems, and educate him/herself?  As the baby of a relatively small nuclear family in a modern home, how can she understand the effects of being born into a shack with no electricity or running water, with 15 siblings, dropping out of school at 15 to have her first baby, and then dealing with an abusive [as in break your jaw abusive] first/ex-husband?  Miss protected-from-the-world considers herself to be entitled to parents who have no baggage and no challenges?

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

And part of the issue with young adults is that they don't understand the context of what their parents did, because they themselves haven't had the same stressors, at least not yet.  In the OP situation, the young adult has no plans to be a parent and I don't know if she ever plans to marry.  How can she understand the limitations of a young parent trying to raise kids (3 teens [one with special needs] and a tot and sometimes grandkids), care for Grandma with dementia, hold a job, battle physical problems, and educate him/herself?  As the baby of a relatively small nuclear family in a modern home, how can she understand the effects of being born into a shack with no electricity or running water, with 15 siblings, dropping out of school at 15 to have her first baby, and then dealing with an abusive [as in break your jaw abusive] first/ex-husband?  Miss protected-from-the-world considers herself to be entitled to parents who have no baggage and no challenges?

I gotta say, saying stuff like this will be singularly unhelpful if your children ever complain about your behavior… 

[Kassia]

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have heard several things you do not want her to do/say, but my question is, what do you want her to say instead?

Well, I guess it depends on the situation.  I'd want her to listen to what DH says (or me) and then address/discuss the issue rather than resorting to being a martyr and avoid any problem in the relationship.  I don't think I have any recent examples because we just stopped even trying many years ago.  I used to get mad at DH for not confronting his mom about her behavior and it took me years to understand why he didn't bother - it just never did any good.  

 

[Spryte]

Lest it is forgotten: Estrangement comes in many forms.  Flipping this to parents cutting off kids … I don’t see this mentioned here much (haven’t read entire thread in depth, have only skimmed), but some families have a culture of cutting people off which makes them more likely to continue the pattern.

I have a family member who was semi-estranged from his mother and brother, with very limited contact over at least 30 - 40 years. Other parent had passed away when he was a child.  He then became estranged from a teen/young adult daughter for 10+ years, after remarrying. At that time, I know the wife told daughter, “you are dead to him, he is grieving you.” They had a brief attempt at a relationship for several years, daughter was over the moon excited and he seemed happy as well, but he and wife have again cut off the daughter.  I imagine their story is very different from the daughter’s, but the cutting off part absolutely came from the parent and stepparent, not the daughter.  It’s been years, and daughter is resigned to not having a relationship but still sad and open to reconnection. Unlikely since he is in his 80s. He is also disconnected from his son, not estranged, but son’s wife makes a Herculean effort to stay in favor with the wife, so they have some contact. From where I sit, it looks like daughter is a painful reminder of first wife, to both father and wife.

That type of estrangement is different from an adult child cutting off parents, though, so probably not the scenario OP is trying to prevent. It just feels odd to have a discussion focusing primarily on adult kids cutting contact when parents can also do the same.
 

 

[HomeAgain]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

I understand the need to prevent abuse, but when it comes to disagreements and annoyances, I really don't understand the need for adults to tell their parents what they don't like about their opinions or present/past actions.  Why aren't parents allowed to be imperfect?  Do we really want our kids to grow up and lecture us about everything we ever did?  I hear enough of that from my 14yos, I don't need to hear it for the rest of my life.  And no, I'm not ever going to apologize for feeding them organic food, taking them to church, teaching them math in the summer, or buying them the clothes they preferred to wear at the time.

We wouldn't do that to friends/acquaintances, even knowing they are usually on good behavior around us.  We saw our parents in their most human state as kids, because it was their own house after all.  Is that really their fault?  Do we go on stage when we become parents and stay on stage for the next 18+ years in our own homes?

It isn't even about respect, it's about futility.  All the complaining in the world isn't going to make the recipient perfect, and it's often just going to make things worse.

The human race managed to survive thousands/millions of years without "getting everything off our chests."  What changed recently?  Maybe the fact that people are now being paid to advise adults to hold their parents to unrealistic standards.

You misunderstand fundamentals.

The point of adult children talking to their parents is multifaceted.  They want to understand why. They want closure. They want to prevent it from happening again or creating another cycle.

The parent should be a healthy person to talk to about these things, being willing to see the effect of their decisions and actions on the person they directed them to and plot a new course accordingly.

 

Your dismissive words and deciding that the conversations are hinged on unrealistic standards is not healthy. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by HomeAgain
Removed personal info