Top surgery for young person

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

This thread has morphed from supporting Quill in something that is difficult for her to judging the journey of someone we don’t know anything about (plus tangents on the morality of telling harmless white lies and something that sounds dangerously equivalent to conversion therapy).

I’m pretty sure we all want her to work through her challenges and be able to support her nephew. There are as many paths as there are human beings, but I for one am glad she feels she has a safe space here for her thoughts. Hope it remains that way. 

There will always be rabbit trails, but I think Quill knows we all love her and are trying to help. Sorry, Quill, if we've been veering too far off subject.

[Lecka]

It is really hard, because we are caught between -- my husband feeling uncomfortable, but ultimately really valuing this friendship.  This is a person who was there for my husband at a time he was struggling.  What kind of person is he, if he is not there when his friend has some issues?  

And then my ILs think we are actively harming our children.  I do not think our kids are even aware that Dad's friend Natalie used to be Nate.  

It is just a stressful situation in a lot of ways.  

I really come back to thinking, she was there for my husband when he needed a friend.  My ILs were not there for my husband when he needed them, but his friend was -- what is it that counts?  I think someone who was there for my husband is what counts. 

So -- whatever it is, I think we are going to be in support of this person.  

[Lecka]

I say that, but really -- it has just died down as an issue.  It is not 100% totally gone as an issue, but it is drastically decreased, to the point it really just does not come up very often at all, and then in a very minor way.  

But I can't say it is 100% the same as if it had never happened, it did happen.  But it is really minor and I don't think it is a major factor in their friendship.  

[SanDiegoMom]

15 minutes ago, MEmama said:

This thread has morphed from supporting Quill in something that is difficult for her to judging the journey of someone we don’t know anything about (plus tangents on the morality of telling harmless white lies and something that sounds dangerously equivalent to conversion therapy).

I’m pretty sure we all want her to work through her challenges and be able to support her nephew. There are as many paths as there are human beings, but I for one am glad she feels she has a safe space here for her thoughts. Hope it remains that way. 

You're right that it did veer off and for that I am sorry for contributing to this Quill.

The notion that the thoughts offered here, though, are verging into conversion therapy is pretty offensive, tbh.  I'm pretty sure conversion therapy is harmful because it is aimed at LGB is specifically about forcing one to change their sexual orientation. Applying that to gender dysphoria trivializes the many contributing factors that are involved and the huge medical burden it entails.  NOT the same thing.   

 

[Lecka]

Yeah, it is deeply emotional to me, and probably way off base and different in so many ways.  The fact is -- my ILs were deeply dysfunctional and unsupportive of my husband, and who was supportive and there for him?  His friend who turned out to be transexual, and (edit) the friend's dad.  It's pretty sad -- but the friend's dad treated my husband better than my own FIL treated my husband.    

That is the truth.  

It is a sad truth in a lot of ways, but is the truth.  

I think my husband's friend has been loyal to him in so many ways, and I am glad my husband can be loyal in return.  

Edited June 17, 2021 by Lecka

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The fact that you can't see the difference is exactly the issue.

How would you feel if your nephew was born with male anatomy but had a condition called gynecomastia, which causes the development of actual breasts in men & boys? Would you be upset about him having surgery to correct the condition, on the grounds that the breast tissue was "healthy," even though it was on a man? That is the appropriate analogy to what your nephew is experiencing.

It's one thing to say "hey I love my nephew but I'm struggling to deal with this change," but what you seem to be saying is that you simply don't accept that this child is trans and continue to hope that he will "desist" and go back to being the person you wish he still was (or that you thought he was anyway). You can continue to refuse to accept it, or you can choose to acknowledge that this is his reality and work on your own attitude, which is why several people suggested talking about it with a counselor — not because they think you're a "head case," as you put it, but because it may help you work through your feelings so that you can have a loving and supportive relationship with your nephew going forward.

That’s not a correct characterization, Corraleno. I have spoken about my sister’s child obliquely on here for years. I would not reject him or have nothing to do with him or denigrate him for these choices. It is *because* I wish to be supportive that I put up this post to say, hey, it’s complicated; it’s not super easy to accept and I’m not *certain* this is the best choice to make by anyone whose age still ends in “-teen.” I am not “hoping” he’ll go back to being female. That was actually evident from a really, really young age. I had a long thread about this two years ago because my mom did not go to my niece’s wedding, and I strongly suspect it’s because of the trans sibling of the bride. So it’s not about acceptance. I have worked on that for years. But calling someone by a different name or saying, “Hi, guys!” To both of my nephews is a lot different from thinking about the actual person who was once my niece having a drastic surgery at -teen years old to be well and truly not female-ish up top. And, this is certainly not the end of it and there will most likely be additional surgeries in the future. I just find it really difficult to believe happiness will be at the end of this. Statistically, isn’t it true that more often than not, the person is not happy after transitioning either? 
 

 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, LMD said:

I'm sorry Quill, this is big, hard stuff. You are allowed to unapologetically feel all your complicated feelings.

This is the right response when someone tells us they are struggling. 

Thank you to the handful of posters who have responded to the person in front of them - Quill - with empathy. 

[Guest]

PS.: rabbit trails are fine. I only just got home from work a short bit ago and I haven’t been on top of the thread all day and missed many posts. Also, I have received a lot of PMs - thank you, PM’ers, for your kindness. So if I haven’t addressed everything on here, that is why. 

[1234]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

That’s not a correct characterization, Corraleno. I have spoken about my sister’s child obliquely on here for years. I would not reject him or have nothing to do with him or denigrate him for these choices. It is *because* I wish to be supportive that I put up this post to say, hey, it’s complicated; it’s not super easy to accept and I’m not *certain* this is the best choice to make by anyone whose age still ends in “-teen.” I am not “hoping” he’ll go back to being female. That was actually evident from a really, really young age. I had a long thread about this two years ago because my mom did not go to my niece’s wedding, and I strongly suspect it’s because of the trans sibling of the bride. So it’s not about acceptance. I have worked on that for years. But calling someone by a different name or saying, “Hi, guys!” To both of my nephews is a lot different from thinking about the actual person who was once my niece having a drastic surgery at -teen years old to be well and truly not female-ish up top. And, this is certainly not the end of it and there will most likely be additional surgeries in the future. I just find it really difficult to believe happiness will be at the end of this. Statistically, isn’t it true that more often than not, the person is not happy after transitioning either? 
 

 

I don’t know how the numbers work out but I do wish there was more therapy/help so more were happy prior to surgery. Ds hasn’t had top surgery yet (hasn’t worked out schedule wise with school but he plans to) but he’s so much happier now than he was right before he came out. He wants the surgery but he doesn’t absolutely have to have it to feel good about himself anymore. Our years of therapy were super important and I am worried hearing about people getting surgery to actually be happy because there is no way to know if that one thing will actually make someone happy.

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

That’s not a correct characterization, Corraleno. I have spoken about my sister’s child obliquely on here for years. I would not reject him or have nothing to do with him or denigrate him for these choices. It is *because* I wish to be supportive that I put up this post to say, hey, it’s complicated; it’s not super easy to accept and I’m not *certain* this is the best choice to make by anyone whose age still ends in “-teen.” I am not “hoping” he’ll go back to being female. That was actually evident from a really, really young age. I had a long thread about this two years ago because my mom did not go to my niece’s wedding, and I strongly suspect it’s because of the trans sibling of the bride. So it’s not about acceptance. I have worked on that for years. But calling someone by a different name or saying, “Hi, guys!” To both of my nephews is a lot different from thinking about the actual person who was once my niece having a drastic surgery at -teen years old to be well and truly not female-ish up top. And, this is certainly not the end of it and there will most likely be additional surgeries in the future. I just find it really difficult to believe happiness will be at the end of this. Statistically, isn’t it true that more often than not, the person is not happy after transitioning either? 
 

 

Just to address your last point. Statistically, we know very little, but it appears from the little data we have that over the long term, transition doesn't 'fix' suicidality. 

Anecdotally, some people do well, and some don't. 

But you don't need to go there right now, because actually, your job is to process your feelings. That's the responsible thing to do. You don't need to second guess for your relative's future at all, or get dragged into defending your feelings or worries. 

It's ok to remain with your own experience, emotions and reality till you feel resolved in some way. 

Hugs. 

[maize]

For those who don't see the problem with using potential suicide risk to try to shame people into behaving a particular way, please think of how that plays out in other contexts.

I have a friend whose boyfriend told her that if she left him he would kill himself.

She left him.

A few months later he shot himself.

His family blames her for his death.

would you shame her and others like her if they don't conform their behavior to the demands of other people because there is a perceived risk or explicit threat of suicide if they don't comply?

 

 

There is a general problem with reinforcing the idea that *other people* are responsible for an individual's happiness or unhappiness, that *other people's* behavior must be compliant with Person A's desires for Person A to be happy. That is not a mindset that is conducive to good mental health. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

There will always be rabbit trails, but I think Quill knows we all love her and are trying to help. Sorry, Quill, if we've been veering too far off subject.

It isn't love, and trying to help, when posters are scolding the person in front of them for their feelings. Not their behaviour - their emotions. 

Just an anecdote, but my first step towards TERFery came when LBGT parenting group members here insisted on reacting to similar grief and confusion with scolding, dire warnings about suicide and family breakdown (emotional blackmail) and an immediate (and ideological) enforcement of opposite sex language for my (just diagnosed with GD) daughter. 

It's not kind, but more than that, it's not effective. 

Allow people to have their emotions. 

[Lecka]

45 minutes ago, Quill said:

Statistically, isn’t it true that more often than not, the person is not happy after transitioning either? 
 

I think this is an interesting question.  

For the one person we know, frankly, employment discrimination has been an issue since transition.  

If she could have stayed in her original job, maybe everything would have been different?  

But that job didn't have the right health insurance, so she left it, for a job where she would have health insurance to do this surgery stuff.  

But that was not a great job, and she never got any recognition.  

Before, she did get recognition as an employee, and advancement.  

As far as we know, she is just going to be discriminated against at this point, and career advancement is just unlikely to happen for her.  

How that cannot influence happiness -- I do not know.  

In other ways -- when I say it seems like things are working out for her, it does seem like things are working out for her.  Her personal life seems like it is going well.

But it seems like it will be hard for her to break out as far as employment, and I think that has been a negative.  

Her hard work does not seem to be recognized the way it was before, if that makes sense.  It seems to be a discrimination thing.

I don't actually know -- we don't even live in the same place.  

That is just what it seems like, it is our impression.  

We don't think she anticipated that, maybe she would have tried to stay in her old job and pay out of pocket, or maybe that would not have even made a difference, I don't know.  I really don't know what her options have been.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Joker2 said:

I don’t know how the numbers work out but I do wish there was more therapy/help so more were happy prior to surgery. Ds hasn’t had top surgery yet (hasn’t worked out schedule wise with school but he plans to) but he’s so much happier now than he was right before he came out. He wants the surgery but he doesn’t absolutely have to have it to feel good about himself anymore. Our years of therapy were super important and I am worried hearing about people getting surgery to actually be happy because there is no way to know if that one thing will actually make someone happy.

I do feel like I've now heard of at least few cases where the new gender identity seemed like an attempt to fix whatever was bothering the person inside. I would guess in cases like this, the new identity wouldn't fix the problem and getting excess surgery/hormones may have an adverse affect on the person's lives. 

That doesn't affect what ought to happen with kids who've always felt like they are the wrong gender -- obviously, surgery is the right thing to do in that case. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do believe it is different because breasts are central to the entire gender identity. They are a body part that is fraught with connotations like possibly none other. They embody the essence of "female". Which is exactly why for many women the loss of breasts is very traumatic.

Yes, but that goes back to my comparison with a teen who is deeply unhappy about some part of their body, who wants cosmetic surgery. 
 

When someone is willing to literally starve, over exercise and make themselves vomit because they are deeply unhappy about their body shape, we say that person has a mental health problem. We don’t go get them liposuction so they can stop viewing themselves as “fat”; we acknowledge that their head is telling them lies about how they “have” to look. Why would that have no relationship to gender dysphoria? 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Quill said:

Yes, but that goes back to my comparison with a teen who is deeply unhappy about some part of their body, who wants cosmetic surgery. 

When someone is willing to literally starve, over exercise and make themselves vomit because they are deeply unhappy about their body shape, we say that person has a mental health problem. We don’t go get them liposuction so they can stop viewing themselves as “fat”; we acknowledge that their head is telling them lies about how they “have” to look. Why would that have no relationship to gender dysphoria? 

I suppose because when I think of kids who actually have eating disorders, the liposuction wouldn't help, anyway, since their body image is so skewed. If someone is deeply unhappy about ACTUALLY being overweight (as opposed to having a skewed perception of being overweight), I can absolutely imagine getting the child surgery to help them out, especially if they've tried other things. 

The "tried other things" is pretty key, though, in my opinion. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Statistically, isn’t it true that more often than not, the person is not happy after transitioning either? 

Whether the person is "happy" in general after transitioning, and whether they are happy that they transitioned, are two different things. If someone has a medical condition and is also depressed, we don't withhold treatment for the medical condition on the grounds that the medical treatment isn't guaranteed to cure the depression.

According to a 2015 survey of 28K trans people in the US, 8% said they had detransitioned at some point, and of that 8% the majority (62%) said it was only temporary and they eventually returned to their trans identity. The most common reason given for detransitioning was parental pressure and lack of acceptance — only 0.4% reported that they detransitioned after realizing it was the wrong choice for them. And if you look at the horrific stats in that report on how many trans people are bullied, assaulted, and discriminated against, there are plenty of reasons for trans people to be unhappy even after transitioning — that doesn't mean they regret transitioning. A 2010 Swedish study found that only 2% of people regretted gender surgery, and a 2018 study in the Netherlands found that less than 2% of adolescents that started puberty blockers chose not to continue with treatment.

Both of the trans people I have known well (i.e. not just the child of a friend, or friend of a friend, or whatever) wanted it for a long time and have no regrets. One did not transition until she was in her 50s, because she came from a very religious family who made it clear that being gay or trans would result in being completely shunned and cut off. So she literally waited until her parents had passed away before transitioning. She is much happier now, but I find it utterly heartbreaking that she spent so much of her life "living a lie" as she would put it, forced to choose between her family's love and acceptance and being her true self.

News article: Media's "detransition" narrative is fueling misconceptions

2015 Survey: US Transgender Survey

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Corraleno

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I suppose because when I think of kids who actually have eating disorders, the liposuction wouldn't help, anyway, since their body image is so skewed. If someone is deeply unhappy about ACTUALLY being overweight (as opposed to having a skewed perception of being overweight), I can absolutely imagine getting the child surgery to help them out, especially if they've tried other things. 

The "tried other things" is pretty key, though, in my opinion. 

Based on nothing but a hunch - I think it is likely that kids who have cosmetic surgery are more likely “encouraged” to do so by parents who would prefer the change. 
 

But back to what you said about the liposuction not helping the state of mind - that is what I have heard/read about young people who fully transition. Many are still struggling. 
 

I think The Atlantic did a long article about this a couple years ago. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Whether the person is "happy" in general after transitioning, and whether they are happy that they transitioned, are two different things. If someone has a medical condition and is also depressed, we don't withhold treatment for the medical condition on the grounds that the medical treatment isn't guaranteed to cure the depression.

According to a 2015 survey of 28K trans people in the US, 8% said they had detransitioned at some point, and of that 8% the majority (62%) said it was only temporary and they eventually returned to their trans identity. The most common reason given for detransitioning was parental pressure and lack of acceptance — only 0.4% reported that they detransitioned after realizing it was the wrong choice for them. And if you look at the horrific stats in that report on how many trans people are bullied, assaulted, and discriminated against, there are plenty of reasons for trans people to be unhappy even after transitioning — that doesn't mean they regret transitioning. A 2010 Swedish study found that only 2% of people regretted gender surgery, and a 2018 study in the Netherlands found that less than 2% of adolescents that started puberty blockers chose not to continue with treatment.

Both of the trans people I have known well (i.e. not just the child of a friend, or friend of a friend, or whatever) wanted it for a long time and have no regrets. One did not transition until she was in her 50s, because she came from a very religious family who made it clear that being gay or trans would result in being completely shunned and cut off. So she literally waited until her parents had passed away before transitioning. She is much happier now, but I find it utterly heartbreaking that she spent so much of her life "living a lie" as she would put it, forced to choose between her family's love and acceptance and being her true self.

News article: Media's "detransition" narrative is fueling misconceptions

2015 Survey: US Transgender Survey

 

I mean……the organization who did that survey is called trans equality.org.  I don’tt know how you would expect that to be unbiased.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Scarlett

[Guest]

Corraleno, I will take a look at that, but, off the top of my head, I think the article I read was specifically about teens who transition, and the stats were much different. For your 50+ friend, that is easy to understand. But, as a group, teens are not the best at making permanent, huge choices that will affect every aspect of their lives. I’m not saying it’s *never* appropriate, and if I knew your 50yo friend, I would probably send them a bottle of champagne. I just think we should be slower on the draw for people without a fully developed frontal cortex. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

A 2010 Swedish study found that only 2% of people regretted gender surgery, and a 2018 study in the Netherlands found that less than 2% of adolescents that started puberty blockers chose not to continue with treatment.

Well, yes. I believe that if you're the kind of person who transitioned in the 1990s or 2000s, then you were genuinely very unhappy with life in your body. But I do wonder if the current net will catch more people who are simply questioning or generically deeply unhappy for other reasons. Especially teens, because teens are notorious for questioning. 

Again, this feels like an open question for me. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Catwoman]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

2) I share your discomfort with surgery for teenagers, although I imagine that in some cases it's not a hard decision. For instance, DD8 has a trans friend who's been trans since she was 2 (she's the same age as my kiddo), and I imagine she'll wind up doing some sorts of permanent body modifications before her brain is fully developed. 

I know I will probably get a lot of pushback for saying this, but I think it is ridiculous to consider any 2 year-old to be transgender, and for parents to treat a toddler as being the opposite gender of their biological sex seems incredibly presumptive — and unhealthy for the child.

Why did the parents of that 2 year-old decide that their toddler should decide their own gender? 

No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of toddlers want to pretend to be puppies, too, so I’m not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of a 2yo for something this life-altering.

There are a lot of ways for parents to be sensitive to their kids’ interests and personalities without going so far as to treat them as trans when they are practically still just babies.

Hang on a minute while I put on my flame-proof suit. 

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I know I will probably get a lot of pushback for saying this, but I think it is ridiculous to consider any 2 year-old to be transgender, and for parents to treat a toddler as being the opposite gender of their biological sex seems incredibly presumptive — and unhealthy for the child.

Why did the parents of that 2 year-old decide that their toddler should decide their own gender? 

No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of toddlers want to pretend to be puppies, too, so I’m not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of a 2yo for something this life-altering.

There are a lot of ways for parents to be sensitive to their kids’ interests and personalities without going so far as to treat them as trans when they are practically still just babies.

Hang on a minute while I put on my flame-proof suit. 

I have been wanting to post the same thing all day…..my son was in full puppy mode for at least a year at  age 4-5.   He also loved pink and baby dolls.   

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I mean……the organization who did that survey is called trans equality.org.  I don’tt know how you would expect that to be unbiased.

Advocacy organizations often collect data on the populations they serve, in order to better serve them. Would you automatically dismiss any data on homelessness that was collected by an organization that advocates for the homeless? Would you dismiss data on veterans solely because it came from a veterans group?

One of the lead authors, Dr. Jody Herman, works for the Williams Institute at the UCLA Law School. The Williams Institute “conducts independent research on sexual orientation and gender identity law and public policy.” Other co-authors include a retired professor from Penn State, an adjunct professor at George Mason, and a graduate of Harvard Law who is Senior Counsel at the National Women’s Law Center.

Surveys, by definition, include some bias due to a certain amount of self-selection in who responds to them. But the methodology is throughly detailed in the 300-page report, it was a very extensive survey with hundreds of questions that took an average of 60 minutes to complete, it included nearly 28,000 people, and the data they collected is in line with data from other studies in other countries.

[Melissa Louise]

Sweden has very recently ceased experimental treatment in under 18's.

They recognise that the transitioning cohorts have become very complex, that old studies on transexual people do not capture the new complexities, and they are accordingly pulling back. 

Ppl need to keep up with the very rapidly changing advice. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

33 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I know I will probably get a lot of pushback for saying this, but I think it is ridiculous to consider any 2 year-old to be transgender, and for parents to treat a toddler as being the opposite gender of their biological sex seems incredibly presumptive — and unhealthy for the child.

Why did the parents of that 2 year-old decide that their toddler should decide their own gender? 

No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of toddlers want to pretend to be puppies, too, so I’m not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of a 2yo for something this life-altering.

There are a lot of ways for parents to be sensitive to their kids’ interests and personalities without going so far as to treat them as trans when they are practically still just babies.

Hang on a minute while I put on my flame-proof suit. 

It was a long story. I know the family well. I can PM you, if you like, but I really can't share their story on a public forum. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I know I will probably get a lot of pushback for saying this, but I think it is ridiculous to consider any 2 year-old to be transgender, and for parents to treat a toddler as being the opposite gender of their biological sex seems incredibly presumptive — and unhealthy for the child.

Why did the parents of that 2 year-old decide that their toddler should decide their own gender? 

No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of toddlers want to pretend to be puppies, too, so I’m not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of a 2yo for something this life-altering.

There are a lot of ways for parents to be sensitive to their kids’ interests and personalities without going so far as to treat them as trans when they are practically still just babies.

Hang on a minute while I put on my flame-proof suit. 

I alternated between being a horse and being a dog until I was (much too old for such silliness) around six or seven. My sisters used to put the dog leash on me like a bridle and reins (I put the clasp in my mouth like a bit!) and they would “put me in my stall,” where I would dutifully pretend to be a horse patiently waiting in its stall for some absurdly long time! 😄 Easy baby-sitting job! Just tell Quill, “it’s time to go to your stall.” 🙄

 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

I alternated between being a horse and being a dog until I was (much too old for such silliness) around six or seven. My sisters used to put the dog leash on me like a bridle and reins (I put the clasp in my mouth like a bit!) and they would “put me in my stall,” where I would dutifully pretend to be a horse patiently waiting in its stall for some absurdly long time! 😄 Easy baby-sitting job! Just tell Quill, “it’s time to go to your stall.” 🙄

 

I would guess you weren't living your whole life as a dog, though. 

The descriptions I've heard of trans kids' behaviors don't sound like any pretend play I've ever seen. 

[Catwoman]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It was a long story. I know the family well. I can PM you, if you like, but I really can't share their story on a public forum. 

I would be very interested in hearing the story, but if you’re uncomfortable PMing me about it, I will certainly understand!

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Catwoman said:

I would be very interested in hearing the story, but if you’re uncomfortable PMing me about it, I will certainly understand!

Why don't you PM me and I'll respond at some point, probably tomorrow? I'm half asleep and am not totally able to tell a coherent story right now 😂. But I'd be happy to share in private. 

[Guest]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I would guess you weren't living your whole life as a dog, though. 

The descriptions I've heard of trans kids' behaviors don't sound like any pretend play I've ever seen. 

No, I was sharing a funny story, not saying I must be trans-species.

FWIW, though, I would think a toddler would never come up with that on their own. They are getting a narrative from someone else if they persist in thinking they are really the other gender. Because: toddlers say and do all kinds of wild things. I can’t imagine one persisting with this idea unless they get some sort of positive feedback on it. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Quill said:

No, I was sharing a funny story, not saying I must be trans-species.

FWIW, though, I would think a toddler would never come up with that on their own. They are getting a narrative from someone else if they persist in thinking they are really the other gender. Because: toddlers say and do all kinds of wild things. I can’t imagine one persisting with this idea unless they get some sort of positive feedback on it. 

Well, I'm a little hampered here by the fact that I don't want to share details, lol. But it was a looong process from the description of the parents, and they were quite reluctant about it, if ultimately cautiously supportive. 

Again, it didn't sound like anything I've ever seen. You can PM me, too, if you want -- as I said, I know the family well, and I've heard a bunch of the story. Plus I've known the kid for 3 years now. 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Why don't you PM me and I'll respond at some point, probably tomorrow? I'm half asleep and am not totally able to tell a coherent story right now 😂. But I'd be happy to share in private. 

Done!  🙂

Go get some sleep!😃

[Not_a_Number]

For those of you who think that the kid couldn't possibly know they are trans at a young age: have you ever read stories by XY individuals who had accidents at birth and were brought up as female? A LOT of them describe a feeling of pervasive wrongness in their body from very early on -- like, from a toddler age. 

And if you think that a toddler in this situation could sense that something is wrong, what's the difference? 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of toddlers want to pretend to be puppies, too, so I’m not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of a 2yo for something this life-altering.

Sure, but at 2, all it means is that you perhaps let them wear different clothes and call them a different name. Which is about the same as you do for any two year old. If I had a two year old who wanted to wear the same rainboots everywhere, or to be called Princess Fluffernutter, honestly, I have better hills to die on.

So you have a choice. You can just go with the flow, or you can pick a petty power play over something that really shouldn't be a big deal.

And then either your kid outgrows it or doesn't. If they do, great. If they don't, well, at least you haven't spent the past few years picking fights with a toddler over whether or not they can wear a dress.

[Tanaqui]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For those of you who think that the kid couldn't possibly know they are trans at a young age: have you ever read stories by XY individuals who had accidents at birth and were brought up as female? A LOT of them describe a feeling of pervasive wrongness in their body from very early on -- like, from a toddler age. 

And if you think that a toddler in this situation could sense that something is wrong, what's the difference? 

It's not like anybody rolls their eyes at the cisgender kid who says "I'm a girl" and mutters that she's just too young to know something so important.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Sure, but at 2, all it means is that you perhaps let them wear different clothes and call them a different name. Which is about the same as you do for any two year old. If I had a two year old who wanted to wear the same rainboots everywhere, or to be called Princess Fluffernutter, honestly, I have better hills to die on.

So you have a choice. You can just go with the flow, or you can pick a petty power play over something that really shouldn't be a big deal.

And then either your kid outgrows it or doesn't. If they do, great. If they don't, well, at least you haven't spent the past few years picking fights with a toddler over whether or not they can wear a dress.

Yep. 100% accurate for the case I know about. 

[1234]

I can say that my Ds started having major issues at five. When he went to public school kindergarten, he realized he was different. He was in therapy from five to sixteen before he was able to vocalize to us that he was transgender. I do honestly wish we had given him the vocabulary to talk to us sooner because he went through hell. I go back and forth on so much of this but I absolutely do believe some of these kids know early on. And I do believe they need to be supported, but that doesn’t have to mean surgery and such early on or until therapy has them in a better place. 

[Danae]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

No, I was sharing a funny story, not saying I must be trans-species.

FWIW, though, I would think a toddler would never come up with that on their own. They are getting a narrative from someone else if they persist in thinking they are really the other gender. Because: toddlers say and do all kinds of wild things. I can’t imagine one persisting with this idea unless they get some sort of positive feedback on it. 

 

Toddlers come up with some pretty involved things on their own.  A friend’s daughter was convinced around age two that all babies are born as girls and at some point become boys.  It just happened that all the people in her family’s social circle were having baby girls who had older brothers and she generalized.  I will never forget her patiently and repeated explaining this to her older brother who insisted that he’d never been a girl.  “But you were Johnny, everybody was.”  I’m not sure where she thought adult women came from, I didn’t think to ask at the time.  

[regentrude]

Nm

Edited June 18, 2021 by regentrude

[catz]

I actually know 2 families really well that had kids that knew they were transgender super early on.  I am also not comfortable sharing the stories of others but ultimately, they worked with doctors on mental health care for years.  Both kids have been consistently trans now for over 10 years.  And I don't at all sense their medical professionals tried to rail road these kids at all.  It's been very slow and deliberate and dealing with full mental health.  Both kids were much happier for many years with mental health care.  

What I find uncomfortable is 2nd guessing families who are dealing with this first hand.  It isn't easy and they struggle with it mightily too.  I don't necessarily disagree with teen years are young to make permanent changes.  But by that token, should we let 18-21 year olds drive, join the military, etc etc etc?  I do think by the time someone gets around to top surgery, they've likely been consistently trans for many years and much longer than their greater community would have known about it. 

Anyway, I get the struggle especially with your medical history and I'm glad you're venting it here rather than to the family who likely as plenty of their own anxieties about it.   I do have a teen at my house who is identifying as lgbtq.

[Selkie]

5 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

What I find uncomfortable is 2nd guessing families who are dealing with this first hand.  It isn't easy and they struggle with it mightily too.  I don't necessarily disagree with teen years are young to make permanent changes.  But by that token, should we let 18-21 year olds drive, join the military, etc etc etc?  I do think by the time someone gets around to top surgery, they've likely been consistently trans for many years and much longer than their greater community would have known about it. 

This. There are so many people who haven't lived this experience, but think they are experts.

[Faith-manor]

31 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I actually know 2 families really well that had kids that knew they were transgender super early on.  I am also not comfortable sharing the stories of others but ultimately, they worked with doctors on mental health care for years.  Both kids have been consistently trans now for over 10 years.  And I don't at all sense their medical professionals tried to rail road these kids at all.  It's been very slow and deliberate and dealing with full mental health.  Both kids were much happier for many years with mental health care.  

What I find uncomfortable is 2nd guessing families who are dealing with this first hand.  It isn't easy and they struggle with it mightily too.  I don't necessarily disagree with teen years are young to make permanent changes.  But by that token, should we let 18-21 year olds drive, join the military, etc etc etc?  I do think by the time someone gets around to top surgery, they've likely been consistently trans for many years and much longer than their greater community would have known about it. 

Anyway, I get the struggle especially with your medical history and I'm glad you're venting it here rather than to the family who likely as plenty of their own anxieties about it.   I do have a teen at my house who is identifying as lgbtq.

I agree with all of this. I am also flummoxed by a society that sends them to war at 17 and 18 trusting them to make complex, life altering decisions in the blink of an eye, but then gets squeamish about that same group making medical decisions for themselves.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree with all of this. I am also flummoxed by a society that sends them to war at 17 and 18 trusting them to make complex, life altering decisions in the blink of an eye, but then gets squeamish about that same group making medical decisions for themselves.

Some of think we shouldn't be sending them off to war either, given what we now know about brain maturation.

[LucyStoner]

40 minutes ago, Danae said:

Toddlers come up with some pretty involved things on their own.  A friend’s daughter was convinced around age two that all babies are born as girls and at some point become boys.  It just happened that all the people in her family’s social circle were having baby girls who had older brothers and she generalized.  I will never forget her patiently and repeated explaining this to her older brother who insisted that he’d never been a girl.  “But you were Johnny, everybody was.”  I’m not sure where she thought adult women came from, I didn’t think to ask at the time.  

When I was a small child I was quite convinced that I had *previously been able to float/levitate* but that I sadly no longer could.  I had very clear memories of having done it. In fact those were some of the clearest memories I had.  I believed this fervently until I was ~7 years old.     

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Some of think we shouldn't be sending them off to war either, given what we now know about brain maturation.

100% agreed. In my state they cannot buy a beer until 21, but can be in the military at 17. Makes my brain twitch!

[wathe]

 I really think that much of the explosion in numbers of rapid onset gender dysphoria in girls is a reaction to how miserable female adolescence can be in a patriarchal and misogynistic society; and that the (relative) social acceptability of being a transgendered person presents a way out.  There also definitely does seem to be a certain amount of social contagion.

Hating being a girl is not the same thing as being transgendered, but assuming a transgender identity might seem like a good way out for some hate-being-a-girl adolescent girls.  I think we will see a lot of de-transitioning in this population the next 10 years of so.  Along with suing of medical professionals who affirmed and assisted with physical transition (medical/surgical), that in retrospect, wasn't  indicated..

Of course transitioning, including medical/surgical, really is the right choice for many transgendered people.  My worry is that many of the adolescent girls presenting as ROGD actually aren't transgendered, and that a policy of affirming without doing all the hard psychological work is really very harmful.

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

You're right that it did veer off and for that I am sorry for contributing to this Quill.

The notion that the thoughts offered here, though, are verging into conversion therapy is pretty offensive, tbh.  I'm pretty sure conversion therapy is harmful because it is aimed at LGB is specifically about forcing one to change their sexual orientation. Applying that to gender dysphoria trivializes the many contributing factors that are involved and the huge medical burden it entails.  NOT the same thing.   

 

It also ignores the fact that clinicians themselves sometimes understand the root of a teen or young adult's distress to be homophobia, and transition for these kids actually IS the conversion therapy. 

[Terabith]

I had a breast reduction surgery where 7 lbs of tissue was removed from one boob and 4 lbs from the other one.  I honestly asked if they could just cut them off entirely, but the plastic surgeon would not, and I do not have strong feelings:  either attachment to them or revulsion for having them.  Many people and doctors started suggesting reduction from the time I was 12 (they absolutely would have done it before I was 18), but I wouldn't until I was done with breast feeding.  Frankly, I have systemic back damage from years of breasts that were that large.  

My oldest is nonbinary, has always experienced substantial dysphoria from boobs, and they are large enough that binding doesn't really work, as well as causing massive sensory issues.  They plan to have top surgery next summer, when they are 18.  I wish they would wait longer, but I understand the reasoning, and being under our insurance, which does cover it, is a good reason to do it, I think.  

They cause my child significant discomfort.  Cutting them off or leaving them be, neither one really causes me much angst.  All of my trans friends who have had top surgery have felt massive relief and become significantly more comfortable in their own skin afterwards.  

[Jenny in Florida]

8 hours ago, Danae said:

I think Quill's situation here is similar to a person who has experienced a miscarriage or infant loss not being able to attend friends' baby showers for a time.  It doesn't mean you don't support the person, it just means your own experience makes thinking about theirs emotionally fraught.  

 

I do think that the breast cancer thing can either complicate or clarify this.

For me, it has been the latter.

I had a double mastectomy going on two years ago. Unlike Quill, I was strongly advised that a lumpectomy was not going to do it. And, when given the choice -- and after discussion with my doctors about the fact that I would be considered high risk for the rest of my life and need to do mammograms and monitoring every six months for as long as I still had breast tissue -- I made the decision to remove the other breast, too. I decided against reconstruction, because I didn't want to subject myself to additional surgery when it is not necessary and because I am uncomfortable with the idea of having foreign objects implanted. (I did consider DIEP, but it is even more extensive and invasive than basic implants.)

It was a surprisingly difficult decision for me. And, as a person who never really thought all that much of her own appearance and who really anticipated I would adjust quickly, I've been surprised by how much living flat has thrown me. Partly, my reaction to this is wrapped up in some very personal family stuff that came to a head while I was in treatment and recovery, and the physical scars I see in the mirror are metaphors for the emotional stuff I'm still dealing with. 

But, also, I have weird moments when I become incredibly self-conscious and sad about no longer having those markers of my gender. It's been a bigger deal for me than I--or anyone else who knows me well--anticipated.

So, sure, some people go through this experience and wonder why anyone who has perfectly good, healthy breasts would choose to remove them. But, for me, it's made me tiptoe closer to imagining how it must feel to go through life with a body that doesn't match the "you" you understand yourself to be.