Vaccine deaths

[SquirrellyMama]

If there is a thread with this topic let me know. I have FB friends who post every death that might be covid vaccine related. Any good places to look for reassurance or to refute their articles? Or, places to look that support what they are posting?

I know people who hace been vaccinated and they have ranged from no symptoms to flu like symptoms. These are people ages 40-87.

Kelly

[DawnM]

Interesting.  I found this from the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

[TravelingChris]

I don't know one specific site but I know that several times, it was somebody who had lots of heart attacks before and then had another heart attack after.

When millions of people are getting vaccines, you have to expect some will die from just the fact that they are old or have another problem. 

[melmichigan]

I usually pull the VAERS reports myself.  One here in Michigan that got some news, a 91 year old with a history of falls, fell the day she was vaccinated and died 8 days later of complications from the fall.  There is a 90 year old with medical conditions predisposing him to sudden death died the day he was vaccinated. There are many that include people in hospice that die days or weeks after receiving their vaccine.  I've only seen a few that I'd be interested on seeing the follow-up.  Often if you read them yourself you'll see that there are underlying conditions and associated factors that the news isn't reporting. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I usually pull the VAERS reports myself.  One here in Michigan that got some news, a 91 year old with a history of falls, fell the day she was vaccinated and died 8 days later of complications from the fall.  There is a 90 year old with medical conditions predisposing him to sudden death died the day he was vaccinated. There are many that include people in hospice that die days or weeks after receiving their vaccine.  I've only seen a few that I'd be interested on seeing the follow-up.  Often if you read them yourself you'll see that there are underlying conditions and associated factors that the news isn't reporting. 

If someone is in hospice, why would they be vaccinated at all? 
 

Im not challenging your statement, I just don’t understand why that would be.

[Amethyst]

I heard a great story on Michael Osterholm's podcast. He said that once, a pediatric nurse was about to give a 4 month old a routine childhood vaccine. While she was getting the vaccine ready, the child had a seizure. Just imagine if the vaccine had been given just 2 minutes earlier! People would have been outraged that the vaccine caused this. 

 

Things happen. People die, people get sick, people have heart attacks and strokes every day. I know you know this, OP. I'm just sharing this story in case you want to share this with others to help them understand that one case doesn't prove anything. We're looking for patterns. Have seizures/blood clots/heart attacks/whatever gone up significantly in the population that has been vaccinated? Those answers are what will tell us if vaccines are causing deaths, not anecdotes.

[Murphy101]

12 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I don't know one specific site but I know that several times, it was somebody who had lots of heart attacks before and then had another heart attack after.

When millions of people are getting vaccines, you have to expect some will die from just the fact that they are old or have another problem. 

Especially when the people most likely to die sooner rather than later are some of the first to get the vaccine. 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

We're looking for patterns.

I was looking up something about VAERS last night and was surprised to realize that's what they say too, that they're mainly looking for patterns.

I think it's pretty obvious there are patterns of the vaccine increasing inflammation in people with pre-existing conditions and not going as well if you actively have or recently had the disease. There have been very few freak deaths, and even the NVIC can't paint it that way. I get their emails, have for many years, and they really don't have a lot that is highly astonishing about this.

For op, I suggest hitting "unfollow" for those people for a while, because their random factoids without context are not helpful. If you want some nice anti-vaccine and vaccine cautious VETTED information, try NVIC or an org that actually puts their reputation on the line. Read their stuff, see if the arguments and patterns apply to you. My dad went from walking to a wheelchair when his pre-existing condition flared up in the days after the covid vaccine, but that doesn't mean that's going to happen to ALL people. There are real issues for some people, but there are PATTERNS. Even the anti-vaccine people aren't vetting and coming out with long lists of astonishing, inexplicable out of the blue deaths. Most followed those two patterns. One death was a woman who left having a reaction, knew in the parking lot she was in trouble, and drove off anyway.

I agree we could do better and catch more with longer waiting periods afterward, testing everyone before they get the shot or telling them to wait, etc. Apparently the CDC and the powers that be dont think it would catch enough extra cases to be worth those extra measures. But if on an individual level you wanted to be careful, sure you could be extra cautious like that. Wouldn't have done my dad any good. He's finally back up and walking because they did some kind of spinal injection. But he had to have the shot to get back his freedom (in assisted living) and it is what it is.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Murphy101]

30 minutes ago, Quill said:

If someone is in hospice, why would they be vaccinated at all? 
 

Im not challenging your statement, I just don’t understand why that would be.

 

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Because even if we can't prevent someone from dying, we can prevent them from dying without their loved ones there.

Because people in hospice are receiving hands on care, often from multiple people, often in home care situations where lack of PPE and infection control procedures are challenging.

Honestly giving someone in hospice a vaccine like this just seems unnecessarily cruel and a bad way to hasten their death.  By all means vaccinate everyone around them but the actual hospice patience who is literally dying? No. I’d be furious if someone did that to my loved one. And I got the vaccine so it’s not bc I’m an antivaxer. 

[catz]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Honestly giving someone in hospice a vaccine like this just seems unnecessarily cruel and a bad way to hasten their death.  By all means vaccinate everyone around them but the actual hospice patience who is literally dying? No. I’d be furious if someone did that to my loved one. And I got the vaccine so it’s not bc I’m an antivaxer. 

What makes you think they are doing it without permission?

[ktgrok]

Also, if I'm dying of cancer, I don't want to add respiratory distress to my cancer pain. 

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

What makes you think they are doing it without permission?

I didn’t say they are. I’m saying I’d be furious if they did or insist on it for ME to visit them. 

[Janeway]

13 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

If there is a thread with this topic let me know. I have FB friends who post every death that might be covid vaccine related. Any good places to look for reassurance or to refute their articles? Or, places to look that support what they are posting?

I know people who hace been vaccinated and they have ranged from no symptoms to flu like symptoms. These are people ages 40-87.

Kelly

Some people will die from the vaccinations. Some people will die from the illnesses. Whether one decides to do or not to do the vaccinations, it’s a risk. Any article that would refute the idea that anyone would ever die of a shot would be bogus. Somebody will ultimately die from the shot just to somebody somebody will ultimately die from the disease. It’s just about which one has the higher risk. I have taken the Covid vaccination. I do believe people have died from the Covid vaccination and they will continue to die. However I believe that way more people will die from having Covid and will have long-term lasting effects.

[Janeway]

I would just point out to your friends that more people have gotten the vaccination now than ever got the disease. Yet there’s only been a small handful of deaths that are potentially but unproven to be related to the shots however there’s over half a million deaths in this country alone related to Covid. Therefore the vaccination still has way less risk than the disease.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Janeway

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I didn’t say they are. I’m saying I’d be furious if they did or insist on it for ME to visit them. 

Well you'd be equally furious about not being able to see them or take them out and them being locked in their rooms as prisoners for two weeks every time a resident or staff member tests positive. Btdt with my dad in assisted living, and it's not pretty. 

4 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Therefore the vaccination still has way less risk than the disease.

Unfortunately this is very true. At this point, that's about where it stands. Like say you have an inflammatory condition or pre-existing condition that may be made worse by taking it, do you want to take your chances on that or the disease itself? Or wait for more data? It's not like a choice between safe and not. It's more choosing which risk you take and assessing which is more likely for you.

I'm glad so far that as a culture we've at least left that as a choice we can make for ourselves.

[PeterPan]

44 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

What makes you think they are doing it without permission?

Bingo. We were sent forms for my dad and had to sign either way, accepting or refusing. 

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well you'd be equally furious about not being able to see them or take them out and them being locked in their rooms as prisoners for two weeks every time a resident or staff member tests positive. Btdt with my dad in assisted living, and it's not pretty. 

Unfortunately this is very true. At this point, that's about where it stands. Like say you have an inflammatory condition or pre-existing condition that may be made worse by taking it, do you want to take your chances on that or the disease itself? Or wait for more data? It's not like a choice between safe and not. It's more choosing which risk you take and assessing which is more likely for you.

I'm glad so far that as a culture we've at least left that as a choice we can make for ourselves.

Again. I said I think all the staff should be vaccinated. That already immune compromised due to literally already dying people are going to catch illnesses is kind of par for the course ime.

We are talking hospice which is not the same as a nursing home or retirement facility.

And of course, if the dying person wants the shot - then while I disagree, I have no issue with them getting it.  

[PeterPan]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

Again. I said I think all the staff should be vaccinated. That already immune compromised due to literally already dying people are going to catch illnesses is kind of par for the course ime.

We are talking hospice which is not the same as a nursing home or retirement facility.

And of course, if the dying person wants the shot - then while I disagree, I have no issue with them getting it.  

My dad's place has staff 60% vaccinated (last I heard) and more locally I hear numbers of 40%. So while I'm with you on wanting 100% reality is it's not happening.

Hospice comes into nursing homes and assisted living. 

Incredibly, a few residents at the AL where my dad lives have chosen not to be vaccinated. I cannot FATHOM what the family members are thinking. Continued quarantines, no freedom from masks when the mandates drop in a couple months, no ability to leave and return without quarantining. It's insane. Maybe they think it will all go away? Maybe they've been listening to that dude on the radio who says we should all worry about our fertility if we take the shot? I mean, goodness knows when I'm 90 I'm going to be really precious about my fertility.

What concerns me is how slow the CDC is to acknowledge the patterns of people having more severe reactions when they've recently had COVID. So if you're in AL or a nursing home and had it and the whole institution is getting their next round of shots, your family would have to intervene to slow that down. It would be very inconvenient. There probably are going to be cases like this, sigh. We had a case pop up positive between shots 1 and 2 and my dad's AL, but I think the person died. That was even worse, dying when you're so close to be done. 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey
Too personal

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Again. I said I think all the staff should be vaccinated. That already immune compromised due to literally already dying people are going to catch illnesses is kind of par for the course ime.

We are talking hospice which is not the same as a nursing home or retirement facility.

And of course, if the dying person wants the shot - then while I disagree, I have no issue with them getting it.  

I think we need to realize that right now, what has been happening is that elderly or sick were eligible, but their healthy relatives were not. So I can totally understand a person in hospice care choosing to be vaccinated in order to avoid potentially spreading Covid to their healthy relatives who are visiting. 

Once all healthy people who want to be vaccinated are vaccinated, then what you say makes sense - vaccinating those around them will protect both them and their visitors. But right now, the visitors very likely are not eligible for the vaccine, so the dying person may choose to vaccinate to protect their loved ones. 

Also, even more relevant, if the person in hospice is dying of liver cancer, they can have visitors. If they catch Covid, they most likely cannot have visitors. So I can see why they would want to be vaccinated, in order to make sure they can have loved ones visiting and with them when they pass. They can do that if they pass of cancer, not if they pass of Covid. 

[melmichigan]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

If someone is in hospice, why would they be vaccinated at all? 

I do think that this is something that is being reviewed in some places depending on the health of the patient at the time vaccinations are being given, as well as the ramifications of not receiving it.  Someone who is extremely frail may struggle with a simple fever, and that should be taken into consideration.  Ultimately it is up to the patient and the family.  The point I was trying to make is that you have plenty of people in hospice receiving the vaccine, who will go on to die based on premise of hospice, it doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine contributed to their death.  

All patients and family with any underlying conditions should consult with their physicians before taking vaccines.  They cause inflammation.  It's well documented to impact certain conditions.  I had a simple fever following my first covid vaccine.  It is an expected response.  The fever caused an increase in spasticity and fatigue that went beyond 24-48 hours.  I expected that possibility.  I have five days blocked off for the next one. 😉

[wathe]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

If someone is in hospice, why would they be vaccinated at all? 
 

Im not challenging your statement, I just don’t understand why that would be.

Another reason in addition to what pp's have already said:  Covid spreads like wildfire in congregate living facilities.  Vaccinating everyone in all congregate living facilities - including those with short life expectancies - protects the entire community.  

We had a horrific nursing home outbreak here in January with the B117 variant:  100 percent of residents infected, >50% died of covid.  It was the nidus of community spread of the variant; 80+ known staff cases, 80+ known secondary cases (families of staff) and now the B117 variant is the dominant strain in my community (greater than 66% of new cases) and we are the B117 hotspot for the province.  This happened after staff were offered vaccination (they all should have had their first dose weeks prior; most would not have yet had their second but some might have) but residents were not offered vaccination (because of transport issues with the pfizer vaccine which was all we had at the time).  The "iron ring" strategy of vaccination only workers was a spectacular failure.

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

If someone is in hospice, why would they be vaccinated at all? 

Most people who are actually in a hospice facility likely don't have a long time to live. But as others have said, there are certainly valid reasons for vaccinating those patients (with their consent or the consent of their HCPOA if they're not able to give consent, of course).

But there are lots of people who go under hospice care while they still have relatively good quality of life. Palliative care nowadays is quite good at allowing many terminally ill patients to maintain fairly good quality of life up until the final week or two. Some cancer patients who decide to stop treatment and enter hospice often see their QOL improve, at least for awhile, due to no longer enduring the side effects of treatments. I don't know, but I assume the same is true for some percentage of people with other terminal conditions. Denying those people a vaccine would potentially cause them to lose the last four/five months of decent QOL they're going to get. So I guess to my way of thinking it would be better to flip that question around and ask "Why wouldn't you vaccinate those people?"

Edited March 15, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Lecka]

My BIL works in home health and goes back and forth between homes.  I think anyone who may have nurses or aides visiting for care needs a vaccine!!!!!!!!!  Someone in hospice might need people to come in, and then those people (while they are getting vaccinated, too) also are people who could be seeing a lot of others.

Anyway — to me it seems like it would be good for someone in hospice to be vaccinated if it were recommended.  I can see why it would be.  

[teachermom2834]

I didn’t know much about hospice until my mother needed it. We then found out that in our medium size city there was just one small residential hospice facility and she had to wait to get in. I always assumed it was someplace you could easily go. Just to say, I think “hospice” can mean a lot of different scenarios not just a stand alone facility housing only dying people.

[Lecka]

I didn’t even know that.  I am only familiar with hospice workers going to someone’s house.  Good to know!  

[Spryte]

My MIL is on palliative care (hospice), and she had the shot.  She is in a nursing home, and all residents were vaccinated.  We don’t know how long she will be with us, it could be weeks, months, could be a year?  She’s chosen this, and we respect it.  
 

Getting the vaccine wasn’t really a question though.  It didn’t hit my radar as something counter to hospice care, though I can see how it might be seen that way.  That’s interesting to ponder.  She is refusing all care other than comfort care, and I suppose that could have included the vaccine.  
 

We thought of the vaccine more as a public health responsibility thing. Our view was that the vaccine protects her helpers, aides, nurses, docs, their other patients, and their families.  And also  her roommate, who is not on hospice (and is my FIL), as well as all the other residents of her floor and in her facility.

Plus, it would just destroy us if she had to be isolated.  She has dementia, and has already been isolated alone for a month while moving to the nursing home.  It was a terrible experience, for all of us, to see her so confused and alone.  At least this way she has my FIL to orient her.

 

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

 

We had a horrific nursing home outbreak here in January with the B117 variant:  100 percent of residents infected, >50% died of covid.  It was the nidus of community spread of the variant; 80+ known staff cases, 80+ known secondary cases (families of staff) and now the B117 variant is the dominant strain in my community (greater than 66% of new cases) and we are the B117 hotspot for the province.  

Good grief, what a catastrophe.  

[Spryte]

Still pondering the hospice/vaccine question.

Jumping off what I posted above, I think the vaccine may qualify as comfort care.  Not treatment that might prolong life, but comfort care provided to prevent suffering during end of life.

 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited May 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[TCB]

If my parents were on hospice I would want then to have the Covid vaccine, unless they were probably going to die in the next few days. Dying of Covid is not something I’d want my family to go through, even if they were going to die from something else quite soon.

[SquirrellyMama]

I think it is time to snooze this friend again. It says a 30 day snooze, but I think they show up a lot faster than that. I have been snoozing this lady on and off for a year now.

Kelly

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I have been snoozing this lady on and off for a year now.

Unfollow the person, mercy. At this point, what does it matter? 

[RootAnn]

Re: hospice/vaccines

Off-topic to the original thread, but I have had 2 relatives & 2 others that I know on hospice. Three lived at home until their deaths. One was only on hospice for two days. Two were on it for a couple of months. 

One was in a skilled nursing facility. She was actually in hospice care for over a year before they kicked her off it -- since she hadn't died yet. She went back on it for only a month or so a couple of years later before dying. She had a high level of pain due to her terminal condition but she just kept living. She would have wanted to receive the vaccine so she could keep receiving visitors. They were the highlights of her week.