CLEP

[stripe]

15 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Yes,  CB said both of these locations were open.  They aren't open for anyone and all their classes are currently on-line.  I also asked about DE for the summer or next year and all the math/English placements tests are currently cancelled for DE. 

Wow...my local CC has been doing ACCUPLACER online only for almost a year. This is a very challenging time.

[Aloha2U]

Now with a couple of CLEPs under our belt, one thing we know for sure is that we do not like Modern States. If you don’t need free vouchers and can swing the cost of an exam, I would not recommend its use.

[fourisenough]

7 hours ago, Mom21 said:

Now with a couple of CLEPs under our belt, one thing we know for sure is that we do not like Modern States. If you don’t need free vouchers and can swing the cost of an exam, I would not recommend its use.

Tell us more. What is it you don’t like about Modern States?

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, fourisenough said:

Tell us more. What is it you don’t like about Modern States?

+1

Would love to hear your input @Mom21

[pinball]

If you have a person who enjoys standardized tests, I’d suggest CLEPing as much as possible, in the strongest areas of interest.

It gets the student past those huge enrollment number feeder classes and into some higher level classes with less student, high-interest class material and better instructors 

[BusyMom5]

I have been watching this thread since it started, and searching for more CLEP info.  My oldest did a lot of DE, but a lot of classes were low quality and too much online.  Thinking DD2 might be better served with a good class taught by me, then CLEP test, and still get the college credit.  The fall class posting for my CC aren't good-, most still online, and 8 weeks instead of full term!  Not the way to start college imo. 

[Farrar]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

If you have a person who enjoys standardized tests, I’d suggest CLEPing as much as possible, in the strongest areas of interest.

It gets the student past those huge enrollment number feeder classes and into some higher level classes with less student, high-interest class material and better instructors 

But this is why you want to know where you're going before investing too much time in CLEP. Some large universities don't take them for everything. And at liberal arts schools there not only aren't generally large feeder classes in the first place, but they rarely take many CLEP credits or let you use them for much.

Of course, this is good advice if you have a good test taker who is headed to a large state school that will accept the credits for gen ed requirements.

[cintinative]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But this is why you want to know where you're going before investing too much time in CLEP. 

Some days, I just wish I had a time machine so I would know this.  😃

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

If you have a person who enjoys standardized tests, I’d suggest CLEPing as much as possible, in the strongest areas of interest.

It gets the student past those huge enrollment number feeder classes and into some higher level classes with less student, high-interest class material and better instructors 

In the strongest areas of interest, I would always recommend the student should take an actual class where they can interact with peers and professor and have a real learning experience, as opposed to self studying for a multiple choice exam.

The notion that the instructors in higher level classes are better than those who teach large introductory classes is baseless (and I personally find it insulting). Guess where colleges hide the instructors who are barely fit to be put in front of students? In small classes where they cannot do too much damage.

I would do CLEP only to get requirements out of the way for subjects in which the student has no interest in actually learning anything, and only once they have ascertained that the college actually takes the credit.

Edited April 14, 2021 by regentrude

[stripe]

Psychology and sociology seem accepted by many places, even more selective ones. 

[Aloha2U]

On 4/14/2021 at 5:28 AM, fourisenough said:

Tell us more. What is it you don’t like about Modern States?

In short, we found the Modern States videos to be lacking and glitchy, the reading assignments from the texts disjointed, and all that with a far left-leaning agenda. In our experience, time was better spent and a more in-depth understanding gained utilizing the REA CLEP books (which include review, an online diagnostic exam—with some of them—that pinpoints the areas of further review needed, and 2 practice exams), the CLEP Study Guides with practice exams by the College Board, and even Khan Academy. 

[Eos]

I've never considered CLEPs before, but am curious now that the SAT2s are gone. I guess my calculus will be whether it's more worthwhile for dd to spend the time prepping for the SAT vs spreading out the time and energy available on a CLEP or two plus the SAT.  She would be doing them for "outside validation" same as the SAT.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Harpymom

[MamaSprout]

10 hours ago, Mom21 said:

In short, we found the Modern States videos to be lacking and glitchy, the reading assignments from the texts disjointed, and all that with a far left-leaning agenda. In our experience, time was better spent and a more in-depth understanding gained utilizing the REA CLEP books (which include review, an online diagnostic exam—with some of them—that pinpoints the areas of further review needed, and 2 practice exams), the CLEP Study Guides with practice exams by the College Board, and even Khan Academy. 

Which courses did you use?

[Aloha2U]

9 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

Which courses did you use?

My young man began and finished Precalculus. He had to complete every single video. Fast-forwarding is not exactly possible, but sometimes he was able to increase to double speed or something like that. I should add that the practice questions were incorrectly interspersed throughout the modules, which was frustrating and annoying. Furthermore, those practice questions were identical to the CLEP Study Guide practice questions. We quickly decided against the free voucher while attempting to fill out the form.

He also attempted Natural Sciences, History of the US I, and Sociology. Those were short lived, and the account was deleted.

[Aloha2U]

On a separate note, I find it disappointing yet not surprising how the CLEP is treated like a red-headed middle child. (My initial contact with an admin staffer at one of our state universities had never even heard of the CLEP, though the institution accepts many of them for credit.) If the exams were not sufficient, colleges would not except them. It seems to me that the CLEP is a valid means of proving sufficient knowledge of said subject learned. One could not just walk in off the street with absolutely no knowledge base and pass one of these exams, regardless of being multiple choice.

[RootAnn]

I didn't watch any of the American Government Modern States videos after the first couple (at least one being administrative) & had no issues completing the program & getting the free voucher, FWIW.

I agree that if you don't know the topic, you won't be able to pass most CLEPs by guessing or even smart test taking. I like how easy it is to take them (non-Covid-times).

[regentrude]

On 4/17/2021 at 3:30 PM, Mom21 said:

On a separate note, I find it disappointing yet not surprising how the CLEP is treated like a red-headed middle child. (My initial contact with an admin staffer at one of our state universities had never even heard of the CLEP, though the institution accepts many of them for credit.) 

I am not surprised.  In all my years as an academic advisor,  I never had a student bring in CLEP credit. For traditional students coming from a b&m highschool,  they're not a thing - they take AP or DE classes or, occasionally, self study for the more widely accepted AP exams.

CLEP is useful for non-traditional students and perhaps homeschoolers, but at institutions where the majority of incoming students have just graduated highschool, they are very rare.

Edited April 18, 2021 by regentrude

[MagistraKennedy]

18 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am not surprised.  In all my years as an academic advisor,  I never had a student bring in CLEP credit. For traditional students coming from a b&m highschool,  they're not a thing - they take AP or DE classes or, occasionally, self study for the more widely accepted AP exams.

CLEP is useful for non-traditional students and perhaps homeschoolers, but at institutions where the majority of incoming students have just graduated highschool, they are very rare.

But ---- what I'm wondering is why are they rare? Is it because they're not encouraged in B&M schools? To me, they make a lot of sense. Teach your child a US History course at home, take a CLEP exam at the end, and potentially earn credit. Seems like working smarter, not harder. My children will likely be heading for state schools, and I've researched enough to learn that we would be able to knock out a lot of general education credits with CLEP exams. That could save us a significant amount of money. 

[MagistraKennedy]

On 4/17/2021 at 4:30 PM, Mom21 said:

On a separate note, I find it disappointing yet not surprising how the CLEP is treated like a red-headed middle child. (My initial contact with an admin staffer at one of our state universities had never even heard of the CLEP, though the institution accepts many of them for credit.) If the exams were not sufficient, colleges would not except them. It seems to me that the CLEP is a valid means of proving sufficient knowledge of said subject learned. One could not just walk in off the street with absolutely no knowledge base and pass one of these exams, regardless of being multiple choice.

Agreed. With the state schools we are considering, it's been pretty easy to find the CLEP policies on the website. I contacted my alma mater (small private college), and asked for their policy.  "We do follow the CLEP/ACE recommendations when it comes to granting credit for a course. If your child is looking at taking a specific test, then I can check on what we transfer it in as if they meet the minimum score to grant credit." That was frustrating, because every other school had a clearly defined policy I could reference. 

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, MagistraKennedy said:

But ---- what I'm wondering is why are they rare? Is it because they're not encouraged in B&M schools? To me, they make a lot of sense. Teach your child a US History course at home, take a CLEP exam at the end, and potentially earn credit. Seems like working smarter, not harder. My children will likely be heading for state schools, and I've researched enough to learn that we would be able to knock out a lot of general education credits with CLEP exams. That could save us a significant amount of money. 

I would not make my kid, if they had to attend time consuming b&m school all day with loads of busywork at night, cram for additional tests in what little spare time they have left. The class will not be targeted enough to test cold.

It makes sense for homeschoolers.

[chiguirre]

49 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I would not make my kid, if they had to attend time consuming b&m school all day with loads of busywork at night, cram for additional tests in what little spare time they have left. The class will not be targeted enough to test cold.

It makes sense for homeschoolers.

I have a former homeschooler friend who had her  ps dd study and take a couple of CLEPs the summer between her junior and senior year. It wasn't a ton of work and it netted her 6 credits.

[mlktwins]

I am relieved!  I found a place close to us that offers the CLEP exams Mon - Saturdays between 10 am and 3 pm.  They said Fridays and Saturdays are teh business and Tuesdays are the least busiest.  Well...our Tuesdays are our most free day of the week :-).  Finally something is going right!!!

[kirstenhill]

I took a couple CLEP exams while already a college Junior.  I was working on an English degree after having switched majors, and due to the many, many elective credits the English major allowed for, I figured out that if I could get 8 CLEP credits (plus I had 8 credits coming in as a freshman), I would be able to graduate an entire semester early and save a lot of money.  I had a career path decided upon that just required a degree, so I wasn't at that point trying to fit in a minor or anything that would improve the look of my English degree.  My public university would take any clep credits as to fill open electives in the Liberal Arts college, so I decided to try the General Humanities and General Social Science/History tests without studying at all first. I decided it was a $100 gamble (at the time for two tests) that I was willing to take. I passed both just based on general knowledge and the other college classes I had already taken.  So, it's something that students can do later on as well, potentially if they realize it would be helpful.  At the time I honestly thought the exams were a piece of cake, but maybe I am unusual in the amount of general knowledge I had accumulated.

[cbollin]

Just sharing the odd example out there with public school. There's a Middle school in one of suburb public schools in the greater Memphis area that encourages CLEP.  https://westcolliervillems.colliervilleschools.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=1531650&type=d&pREC_ID=1664600

also encouraged at that high school in that system. https://colliervillehs.colliervilleschools.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=1104064&type=d&pREC_ID=2085089

Doesn't mean it's widely popular in that situation but it's done in PS too apparently.  They also encourage DE and AP in that system.

 

[cbollin]

1 minute ago, kirstenhill said:

 So, it's something that students can do later on as well, potentially if they realize it would be helpful. 

awesome story yeah!!  as information for others, always check with specific university about this.  Some may not allow any transfer credit after a certain time frame.  I think I remember that being the case for my oldest. As long as she had not reached senior status (at the university), they'd allow it.  Policies will vary of course.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, MagistraKennedy said:

But ---- what I'm wondering is why are they rare? Is it because they're not encouraged in B&M schools?. 

UC (California) won’t take CLEP and B&M schools aren’t going to encourage students to take exams that won’t be accepted at UC even though CSU does accept CLEP. Students can always sit for CLEP after they received their college acceptance. DE or AP exam credits would be accepted at both UC and CSU. 

[regentrude]

.nm

Edited April 19, 2021 by regentrude

[mlktwins]

As SAT Subject Tests were eliminated, I'm excited to use CLEP as verification for my a couple of my boys' outsourced class grades.  Not looking for credit really.

[Farrar]

To note, admissions offices may be even less familiar with them than you expect. I'm not saying they couldn't be a part of your efforts to prove your homeschool and they definitely are useful for credits at some institutions. But admissions knows AP. And they know the AP course content. That's what they value. Most admissions offices don't use AP scores at all. And they may find your CLEP scores... unusual and not much of a bonus. CLEP is really for getting credit, not for proving your coursework. AP syllabi (or your own awesome home based course descriptions!) are for proving your coursework.

Again, not that this won't work necessarily. I just think it may not be the strategy that some people think it's going to be. It will depend on the school.

I also find the insistence that people must test for every little thing a bit absurd. The SAT is still there and it's plenty if you want to focus on a testing strategy. Or, if your student does better on specific content tests, the AP's are there and they're what AO's expect to see. CLEP... is useful for racking up credits in order to move quicker at some large state schools. It's not the admissions strategy I'd suggest if you're hoping to use it for selective schools.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Farrar

[mlktwins]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

To note, admissions offices may be even less familiar with them than you expect. I'm not saying they couldn't be a part of your efforts to prove your homeschool and they definitely are useful for credits at some institutions. But admissions knows AP. And they know the AP course content. That's what they value. Most admissions offices don't use AP scores at all. And they may find your CLEP scores... unusual and not much of a bonus. CLEP is really for getting credit, not for proving your coursework. AP syllabi (or your own awesome home based course descriptions!) are for proving your coursework.

Again, not that this won't work necessarily. I just think it may not be the strategy that some people think it's going to be. It will depend on the school.

I also find the insistence that people must test for every little thing a bit absurd. The SAT is still there and it's plenty if you want to focus on a testing strategy. Or, if your student does better on specific content tests, the AP's are there and they're what AO's expect to see. CLEP... is useful for racking up credits in order to move quicker at some large state schools. It's not the admissions strategy I'd suggest if you're hoping to use it for selective schools.

Some of the schools we are looking at in VA want/wanted 2-3 SAT Subject Tests to provide support for transcripts.  We only got one subject test done in 9th.  So...maybe they won't look at it, but I'm not going to let the time pass and not have them them test when they are coming off very high A's in their class.  It is "just in case" for me and worth the $89 each and the very little study time they will need to do after taking their course to sit for the test.  We may do one more or maybe not.  My guys will have their first AP class/test next year and we are looking into DE for the next 2 years.  We will see what happens in the end.  SAT prep is starting and will be a large chunk of their summer work.

[daijobu]

If @Farrar is correct and the AOs aren't familiar with CLEP it might be worth including some information on you college applications explaining what they are, maybe some info about percentiles.  For example a score of 50 represents "Level 1 Proficiency" (whatever that means) in Spanish.  

You might include a blurb like this one in your School Profile or elsewhere on you application:

Most CLEP exams are designed to correspond to one-semester courses, although some tests correspond to full-year or two-year courses. Faculty at individual colleges review the exams to ensure that they cover the material that is currently taught in their corresponding college courses.

The format of most questions is multiple choice. Other types of questions require students to fill in a numeric answer, to shade an answer option, or to order items correctly. Questions using these skills are called zone, shade, grid, scale, fraction, numeric entry, histogram, and order-match questions. Some of the exams also include required or optional essays. Language exams include a listening section.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for homeschoolers in coming years.  

Or instead of testing, homeschoolers may find themselves expending more energy locating people to write LoRs.  

[Farrar]

40 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Some of the schools we are looking at in VA want/wanted 2-3 SAT Subject Tests to provide support for transcripts.  We only got one subject test done in 9th.  So...maybe they won't look at it, but I'm not going to let the time pass and not have them them test when they are coming off very high A's in their class.  It is "just in case" for me and worth the $89 each and the very little study time they will need to do after taking their course to sit for the test.  We may do one more or maybe not.  My guys will have their first AP class/test next year and we are looking into DE for the next 2 years.  We will see what happens in the end.  SAT prep is starting and will be a large chunk of their summer work.

It's so few. And they're highly selective. Highly selective schools like Washington and Lee and Emory that used to work those SAT II's, want to see AP's, not CLEP exams. Like, maybe they'll help now that the SAT II's are gone, but... I'm dubious this is going to be a selling point for a school that selective. I'm not aware of schools that are much less selective that were actually still requiring SAT II exams, even from homeschoolers. It was so few, which is why they cut them.

[Farrar]

Of course, if a kid can spend a couple of days studying after taking a traditional course, and ace the CLEP exam, then that's not wasted time. But there are always choices to be made. Some people act like, oh, but I can CLEP a million things AND do volunteering AND do an amazing unique course of study AND do a sport AND do my own research AND read a million books AND and and... At some point, even the best kids have to make choices. If your goal is a big state school, CLEP away. If your goal is a selective private, I really think they'd be more impressed by literally every other thing I randomly listed there, at least if you can additionally score well on the SAT/ACT.

[Momto6inIN]

My DS took several CLEP tests after he knew where he was going to college and what they would accept, as well as one or two after he was enrolled (beginning of his sophomore year, maybe?). He is a good standardized test taker and has a near photographic memory so his test prep was minimal. His motivation for taking the CLEP tests was to test out of as many humanities as possible so he would have more room in his schedule at university to take math and CS courses LOL It was a good strategy for him and worked out just the way he wanted, but I don't think it would have been a good strategy for most students.

I wouldn't think CLEP would make much difference pre-admission. I mean, you have the SAT to verify mommy grades.

[daijobu]

2 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I wouldn't think CLEP would make much difference pre-admission. I mean, you have the SAT to verify mommy grades.

This argument is a moot point anyway, but I did want to point out that the regular SAT doesn't really verify grades for homegrown classes.  For example biology.  You could make the safe assumption that if a kid earned a 750 on the SAT biology subject test, then they probably earned an A or at least paid attention in their bio class all year.  If students/parents who are dishonest on their transcript (rare I know), and record a year long biology class when none was taken, and they otherwise have had little or no exposure to any biology topics are unlikely to do so well.   It's a minimal standard (a one hour test, all multiple choice isn't a terrific assessment), but it was nice to have.  

On further reflection about @Farrar's posts, I think my knee jerk reaction to the end of SAT subject tests is misguided.  My reaction was "What sort of test will take the place of the SAT subject?"  The obvious answer is AP or CLEP.  But I think what I should be asking instead is "What do the AOs really value from their applicants anymore, if not test scores?"  ECs, unique courses of study, sports, research, contests.  

There are still other exams that haven't been mentioned here and those are the subject exams associated with various contests, like FeMA, AMC, and the other olympiads (biology and chemistry), National Latin Exam, National Mythology Exam, and the other items on that College Confidential list from an earlier thread.  Doing reasonably well on any of those exams (not necessarily first place, but earning a respectable score) maybe a way to show pointiness and demonstrate talent, work ethic and interest in a specific field.  

If you are a physics-lover who does really well on FeMA, but maybe skimps a bit in biology class, will anyone really care?   

[Farrar]

I was in one of the regional conferences for admissions for much of today and indeed, what did admissions officers talk about above all else now that test optional is so prevalent - rigor of coursework. Over and over and over. Was the coursework rigorous. A few schools are always going to be annoying about homeschoolers, but I really think this shift benefits us even if you have SAT scores. Because they're thinking more about the coursework in the first place and we have the opportunity to show off amazing course descriptions. They want to see that stuff more than they want to see scores on tests they've barely heard of.

[Momto6inIN]

9 hours ago, daijobu said:

This argument is a moot point anyway, but I did want to point out that the regular SAT doesn't really verify grades for homegrown classes.  

You're right, I should have said that we have the SAT (regular, not subject tests) to verify college readiness, not mommy grades. The two kind of conflate in my mind, but they probably shouldn't 🙂

Edited April 20, 2021 by Momto6inIN

[mlktwins]

20 hours ago, Farrar said:

I was in one of the regional conferences for admissions for much of today and indeed, what did admissions officers talk about above all else now that test optional is so prevalent - rigor of coursework. Over and over and over. Was the coursework rigorous. A few schools are always going to be annoying about homeschoolers, but I really think this shift benefits us even if you have SAT scores. Because they're thinking more about the coursework in the first place and we have the opportunity to show off amazing course descriptions. They want to see that stuff more than they want to see scores on tests they've barely heard of.

@Farrar, I hear what you are saying.  Is using a college text book for an Honors class in 9th grade and getting a high A (plus a high score on the subject test) counted as rigor?  Same for 10th grade with 2 classes (1 Honors) with college texts - is that considered rigor?  Not being snarky -- I just don't know.  I would assume it is.  We also have 2 summers and 1 year left before 12th grade so other rigorous "things" plus SAT test scores will be in place.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by mlktwins
Deleted some sad stuff.

[Aloha2U]

3 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

You're right, I should have said that we have the SAT (regular, not subject tests) to verify college readiness, not mommy grades. The two kind of conflate in my mind, but they probably shouldn't 🙂

This is a good point, ladies. A sort of rendering unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mom21

[Aloha2U]

It is interesting to see which CLEP Exams our local community colleges accept for credit vs. our state universities. It is clearly not about rigor or proving higher learning acquired, but rather about money that would be lost.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mom21

[UmmIbrahim]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

I was in one of the regional conferences for admissions for much of today and indeed, what did admissions officers talk about above all else now that test optional is so prevalent - rigor of coursework. Over and over and over. Was the coursework rigorous. A few schools are always going to be annoying about homeschoolers, but I really think this shift benefits us even if you have SAT scores. Because they're thinking more about the coursework in the first place and we have the opportunity to show off amazing course descriptions. They want to see that stuff more than they want to see scores on tests they've barely heard of.

Yeah, this is exactly the impression my older son got in his admission interviews with some schools. He had one interviewer ask him if he'd ever taken any tests (I guess she encounters lots of homeschoolers with no testing maybe? I don't know, but he was kind of taken aback by the question). Once he told her he'd done a few AP exams, then she was happy to move on with a more normal interview. 

I think that you can show coursework rigor a few ways as a homeschooler. I've been loving all of these customized courses that people have been posting about over the last few days. Those are really changing my thinking about how to approach English and History with my younger two sons. Those course descriptions make it really clear that the course is rigorous and well-thought out. They would stand out from the typical school-style courses, and could be tailored to the student's interests. 

In addition to custom classes, APs are just really what they know. After our admissions process we were left with the impression that AP was just the quick marker that they wanted to see to show that a class was rigorous. DE was not viewed nearly as well as AP for lots of the admissions people. AP is familiar to them and standardized. And I recently learned that taking the tests isn't always even necessary! You just need to have that official "AP" label on the transcript. This makes me think that I need to go through the archives and look into creating syllabi to get some future courses approved by the college board as AP courses. Then we can study AP material for high-interest subjects, but not get bogged down every May with a gajillion stressful tests and worrying about test prep. Admissions people will be satisfied with a sprinkling of the familiar AP labels, and we can maybe outsource less to get what we want. I'm still learning as I go along, lol.

 

[daijobu]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

I was in one of the regional conferences for admissions for much of today and indeed, what did admissions officers talk about above all else now that test optional is so prevalent - rigor of coursework. Over and over and over. Was the coursework rigorous. A few schools are always going to be annoying about homeschoolers, but I really think this shift benefits us even if you have SAT scores. Because they're thinking more about the coursework in the first place and we have the opportunity to show off amazing course descriptions. They want to see that stuff more than they want to see scores on tests they've barely heard of.

Okay, that's fair.  But @mlktwins asks a fair question.  What is rigor?  

Is rigor requiring a 3 page essay every week?  2 midterms (all essay and short answer, no MC) and a 3 hour final?

Is rigor defined to be a class with an "amazing course description?"    Is an entire year devoted to Robert Frost more rigorous than a course in American Poetry is more rigorous than a course in American literature?  How about a course devoted to a single Robert Frost poem?  

I'm undecided whether this change will benefit homeschooled high school applicants.  While many of continue teaching in high school, many of us also outsource to online or CCs.  The CCs in particular are problematic for evaluating rigor.  Within driving distance in my area, there are anecdotally some CCs that are considered more rigorous than other CCs.  Do AOs know about this?  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

@Farrar, I hear what you are saying.  Is using a college text book for an Honors class in 9th grade and getting a high A (plus a high score on the subject test) counted as rigor?  Same for 10th grade with 2 classes (1 Honors) with college texts - is that considered rigor?  Not being snarky -- I just don't know.  I would assume it is.  We also have 2 summers and 1 year left before 12th grade so other rigorous "things" plus SAT test scores will be in place.

We could have done extra study and turned our CLEP for government into an AP Exam, but as we are now facing the imminent death of my FIL (and my MIL is very soon to follow), I am glad that we don't have a 1st AP exam on the table in the near future.  We will do our CLEP and move onto other things after that.     

Being able to say in your course descriptions - we use this college level text, we used these additional materials, we covered these topics, we emphasized these skills, we used these forms of assessment, the course was college prep for these reasons... Yes, that will show rigor for schools reading them.

Saying in your school profile - we use college level texts for core classes, we emphasize student interests with these sorts of high level materials, we emphasize college readiness in these ways, etc. can also be a way to show rigor.

So can AP courses. But getting them approved is the best way to do that.

CLEP... can probably do that, just to a much lesser extent. 

And AP and solid materials by themselves will show rigor, but not let your kid stand out. That's down to their activities, their honors, their uniquely designed coursework.

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Okay, that's fair.  But @mlktwins asks a fair question.  What is rigor?  

Is rigor requiring a 3 page essay every week?  2 midterms (all essay and short answer, no MC) and a 3 hour final?

Is rigor defined to be a class with an "amazing course description?"    Is an entire year devoted to Robert Frost more rigorous than a course in American Poetry is more rigorous than a course in American literature?  How about a course devoted to a single Robert Frost poem?  

I'm undecided whether this change will benefit homeschooled high school applicants.  While many of continue teaching in high school, many of us also outsource to online or CCs.  The CCs in particular are problematic for evaluating rigor.  Within driving distance in my area, there are anecdotally some CCs that are considered more rigorous than other CCs.  Do AOs know about this?  

I think these questions are open. I do think Ruth and 8FillstheHeart have done excellent jobs over the years sharing ways that they showed off unique, rigorous educations that colleges GOT and SAW and that led to opportunities for their kids.

In my mind, the whole landscape of admissions has just gotten messier. Some schools will want to see the Robert Frost course, others will want to see a pile of AP's - the known quantity. CC classes are hard to evaluate - especially out of state. And a big part of what admissions wants to judge is the amount of rigor the student did compared to the amount offered and typically taken at a school. But that's something we can't show. We all technically have unlimited opportunities in some ways. Extremely limited ones in others. So that aspect makes it tougher for us.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, UmmIbrahim said:

DE was not viewed nearly as well as AP for lots of the admissions people. AP is familiar to them and standardized. And I recently learned that taking the tests isn't always even necessary! You just need to have that official "AP" label on the transcript

 

DE: it matters how and where. DE can mean a :"college" course taught by a teacher in the highschool, can mean a mediocre community college, can mean a strong 4 year uni. Not all DE are created equal, and admissions will look at the specifics. (FWIW: we did no APs, but D got admitted to a extremely selective college with DE credit from a 4 y STEM uni)

I would caution against having only AP courses without substantiating test results, because that does not tell the college anything about whether the ambitious syllabus actually produced results. Just because there's a syllabus doesn't mean the student learned squat. I doubt AP courses without exams count for much. OTOH, AP exams without dedicated AP courses are just fine.

Edited April 20, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Mom21 said:

It is interesting to see which CLEP Exams our local community colleges accept for credit vs. our state universities. It is clearly not about rigor or proving higher learning acquired, but rather about money that would be lost.

could you elaborate what you mean?

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

DE: it matters how and where. DE can mean a :"college" course taught by a teacher in the highschool, can mean a mediocre community college, can mean a strong 4 year uni. Not all DE are created equal, and admissions will look at the specifics. (FWIW: we did no APs, but D got admitted to a extremely selective college with DE credit from a 4 y STEM uni)

I would caution against having only AP courses without substantiating test results, because that does not tell the college anything about whether the ambitious syllabus actually produced results. Just because there's a syllabus doesn't mean the student learned squat. I doubt AP courses without exams count for much. OTOH, AP exams without dedicated AP courses are just fine.

The thing with those AP scores though - many colleges don't look at them at all in the admissions process. They don't know if the student took the exam. I would even say the majority don't care. They're focused on evaluating the courses. Now, this did change this year with test flexible admissions. And some schools want to see them from homeschoolers. And you can stick them on your transcript to make sure they get seen. But none of that is the norm.

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The thing with those AP scores though - many colleges don't look at them at all in the admissions process. They don't know if the student took the exam. I would even say the majority don't care. They're focused on evaluating the courses. Now, this did change this year with test flexible admissions. And some schools want to see them from homeschoolers. And you can stick them on your transcript to make sure they get seen. But none of that is the norm.

But they are self- reported in the Common App, and the admissions folks see them. And we can, for example, take them into account for merit scholarships. 

Eta: now, of course, they won't know if the student is truthful until they get the official score report. But it's unlikely a student will risk lying 

Edited April 20, 2021 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, UmmIbrahim said:

. And I recently learned that taking the tests isn't always even necessary! You just need to have that official "AP" label on the transcript. This makes me think that I need to go through the archives and look into creating syllabi to get some future courses approved by the college board as AP courses.

It takes me 5 mins to get an AP course approved on AP Course Audit for a course that I am not competent in teaching my kid (I did hire a tutor).

39 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 Just because there's a syllabus doesn't mean the student learned squat. I doubt AP courses without exams count for much. OTOH, AP exams without dedicated AP courses are just fine.

I agree.  AP courses without exams are useful for universities that look at weighted GPA. That is one way some public schools use to help their students game the GPA for state university applications. An approved AP course really doesn't mean anything other than the paperwork was done on AP Course Audit.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Arcadia

[Aloha2U]

nm

Edited September 24, 2021 by Mom21