The Vaccine Thread

[freesia]

29 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh no! That’s terrible! How is he feeling today?

When will he get the results of the PCR test? 

It was so smart of you to immediately isolate him from the rest of the family. Hopefully, no one else will catch whatever he has (and obviously I hope it’s not Covid!) 

We are still waiting on the test results.  His fever is finally under control and staying down between doses. Still no other symptoms. Nothing respiratory at all.

I isolated him bc I thought it was just a virus but I didn’t want anything to interfere with camp. I am so glad I did.  

I am hoping that if it is covid that it’s true vaccinated people are less likely to spread it. And that I am less likely to get it bc I am vaccinated.   I am masking and washing each time I drop off food .  

[Melissa Louise]

On 7/10/2021 at 1:41 PM, wathe said:

8 weeks between shots is the current protocol for AZ here.

it’s a choice between pretty good immunity sooner (8 weeks between shots) vs maybe better immunity later (12 weeks between shots).  

Given your national situation, I think I would opt for pretty good immunity sooner.

 

She's calling her GP today to move her spot forward. She's almost at 9 weeks now, so I felt comfortable giving this advice. Ty.

[KSera]

I don’t know if this question belongs here or a separate thread. I’m seeing politicians and certain major US networks making a big, concerted push lately to prevent people from getting vaccinated, and I’m wondering if anyone who agrees with that can explain what the reason is for that. I don’t understand what the end game is. How do people who feel that way rationalize the thousands of unvaccinated dying every week from Covid when the vaccinated are not? I’m asking these questions sincerely, because I really can’t understand what the thinking is and understanding that seems the first step. I’m honestly totally baffled (and dismayed). 

[KSera]

Was just asking my dh what he thought the answer to this might be, and I did have one thought come to mind that I hadn’t considered, but it’s political and seems just too downright sinister. It’s the only one I can come up with so far, though. 

[Ausmumof3]

Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

[TCB]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

I’m pretty certain I saw something on the BBC news page a couple of days ago stating there was a link to myocarditis with the mRNA vaccines but not with Astra Zeneca or J&J.

 

ETA Sorry I tried to find it so I could link but I couldn’t so I may be wrong about where I saw it.

Edited July 12, 2021 by TCB

[ieta_cassiopeia]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

I think the link TCB's referring to is the European Medical Agency research I linked to (via BBC) earlier.

Statistics summary:
Myocarditis risk for Pfizer = 2 per million
Myocarditis risk for Moderna = 1 per million
Myocarditis risk for OxfordAstrazeneca and Janssen (either version) = no cases directly linked to vaccine
Novovax/Bhatia Bharat/others = not tested in this research

 

Basically, it's a small risk if you have no pre-existing factors for myocarditis - but if you do have risk factors (especially if you are advising young men with risk factors), steering towards OxfordAstrazeneca/Janssen/an alternative may be wise.

[Ausmumof3]

20 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

I think the link TCB's referring to is the European Medical Agency research I linked to (via BBC) earlier.

Statistics summary:
Myocarditis risk for Pfizer = 2 per million
Myocarditis risk for Moderna = 1 per million
Myocarditis risk for OxfordAstrazeneca and Janssen (either version) = no cases directly linked to vaccine
Novovax/Bhatia Bharat/others = not tested in this research

 

Basically, it's a small risk if you have no pre-existing factors for myocarditis - but if you do have risk factors (especially if you are advising young men with risk factors), steering towards OxfordAstrazeneca/Janssen/an alternative may be wise.

Ok thanks perfect that’s what I wanted to know.

[mommyoffive]

6 fully vaccinated people who attended an outdoor wedding caught the Delta variant, but the ones with Pfizer and Moderna shots didn't get very sick (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

US coronavirus: 'Surprising amount of death' will soon occur in these US regions from increased Covid-19 cases, expert says (msn.com)

[Syllieann]

16 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

6 fully vaccinated people who attended an outdoor wedding caught the Delta variant, but the ones with Pfizer and Moderna shots didn't get very sick (msn.com)

Ugh, dh and I were just discussing the possibility of attending a family member's outdoor wedding in western Missouri.  We are both fully vax and I thought between that and being outdoors it would be ok.  Hmm...

[mommyoffive]

4 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Ugh, dh and I were just discussing the possibility of attending a family member's outdoor wedding in western Missouri.  We are both fully vax and I thought between that and being outdoors it would be ok.  Hmm...

Yeah it really bothers me that maybe that isn't ok.  UGH.  I was feeling good about being fully vaccinated and doing things outdoors around people with no mask.

[mommyoffive]

I hadn't seen this before

F.D.A. Will Attach Warning of Rare Nerve Syndrome to Johnson & Johnson Vaccine (msn.com)

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

6 fully vaccinated people who attended an outdoor wedding caught the Delta variant, but the ones with Pfizer and Moderna shots didn't get very sick (msn.com)

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

[Hyacinth]

5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I hadn't seen this before

F.D.A. Will Attach Warning of Rare Nerve Syndrome to Johnson & Johnson Vaccine (msn.com)

“It’s not surprising to find these types of adverse events associated with vaccination,” said Dr. Luciana Borio, a former acting chief scientist at the F.D.A. under President Barack Obama. The data collected so far by the F.D.A., she added, suggested that the vaccine’s benefits “continue to vastly outweigh the risks.”

I appreciate this slightly nuanced messaging (the benefits outweigh the risks) much more than the blanket "safe and effective" mantra. 

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

I agree that we need more information to make personal risk decisions based on this.  Outside often doesn't really mean outside.  Could mean in a tent, could mean shared indoor washrooms where people went to get out of the heat etc.  

It is useful from a public health point of view  though - lots of outside activities were banned during lockdown here because public health knows that these sorts of activities tend to not be strictly outdoors, and that they do lead to some transmission for all the reasons KSera listed above.

[wathe]

37 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

US coronavirus: 'Surprising amount of death' will soon occur in these US regions from increased Covid-19 cases, expert says (msn.com)

I feel like "surprising" isn't the right word for that headline.  Surprising to whom?

Tragic, avoidable, senseless.......lots of other better words to choose from!

[Syllieann]

6 minutes ago, wathe said:

I agree that we need more information to make personal risk decisions based on this.  Outside often doesn't really mean outside.  Could mean in a tent, could mean shared indoor washrooms where people went to get out of the heat etc.  

It is useful from a public health point of view  though - lots of outside activities were banned during lockdown here because public health knows that these sorts of activities tend to not be strictly outdoors, and that they do lead to some transmission for all the reasons KSera listed above.

There were 92 people in an open air tent, but there were two patient 0s who had traveled from India, so I would think they were staying at a relative's house, thus increasing risk of transmission.  I agree that more details would help.

[freesia]

Update:the clinac didn’t send out the PCR test bc the rapid was positive. So, we will never know. Looks like he will remain isolated until Saturday and unvaccinated dd will stay quarantined. His fever has broken. Still no other symptoms besides a slight headache. Everyone else remains healthy. 

[KSera]

56 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

6 fully vaccinated people who attended an outdoor wedding caught the Delta variant, but the ones with Pfizer and Moderna shots didn't get very sick (msn.com)

Now that I’ve read the preprint, the headline from Business Insider appears untrue. One of the Pfizer recipients was hospitalized:

“Patient 1, who received the Pfizer BNT162b2 vaccine developed severe symptoms and was admitted to Baylor St. Luke’s hospital for monoclonal antibody infusion treatment (Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.) on ten days after the wedding.”

One Covaxin recipient died. It sounds like the two travelers from India were likely infected before their vaccine took full effect; they traveled day 10 after vaccination. 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, freesia said:

Update:the clinac didn’t send out the PCR test bc the rapid was positive. So, we will never know. Looks like he will remain isolated until Saturday and unvaccinated dd will stay quarantined. His fever has broken. Still no other symptoms besides a slight headache. Everyone else remains healthy. 

I’m glad at least everyone is doing fine, but that seems ridiculous to me that they didn’t send the PCR in so you know whether quarantine is necessary. 

[Syllieann]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Now that I’ve read the preprint, the headline from Business Insider appears untrue. One of the Pfizer recipients was hospitalized:

“Patient 1, who received the Pfizer BNT162b2 vaccine developed severe symptoms and was admitted to Baylor St. Luke’s hospital for monoclonal antibody infusion treatment (Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.) on ten days after the wedding.”

One Covaxin recipient died. It sounds like the two travelers from India were likely infected before their vaccine took full effect; they traveled day 10 after vaccination. 

The headline is bizarre. O n the actual page with the Business Insider article it says "...didn't die," but the link says "...didn't get very sick."  I wonder if they changed it.

Where are you seeing the bit about covaxin being 10 days before travel? I can't find that.

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Where are you seeing the bit about covaxin being 10 days before travel? I can't find that.

In the preprint itself: "Patient 0a and 0b travelled to Houston 10 days after their second doses of Covaxin BBV152, Table " https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.28.21258780v1.full#T1

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

I agree! There are so many factors that would make an outdoor wedding different (and potentially closer and longer contact) than other outdoor situations. 

Wedding receptions generally last for several hours, and the people may have been sitting around the same table inside a tent for long periods of time. Also, there is usually a lot of hugging and dancing at wedding receptions, which would mean more close contact. Then, there is the consideration that people would be speaking very loudly so they could hear each other over the music. Also, the guests were probably all sharing the same indoor bathroom facilities, and we don’t know if they were together at bars, restaurants, hotels, or inside relatives’ homes in addition to attending the wedding together.

I hate these news stories where we are only given part of the story, and of course, the part we are told is the part that sounds the scariest.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Catwoman
Typo!

[mommyoffive]

WHO warns against mixing and matching COVID vaccines (msn.com)

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

WHO warns against mixing and matching COVID vaccines (msn.com)

There are some data on it. It's  not 'data-free evidence-free'

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/health-57636356.amp

 

[wathe]

6 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

WHO warns against mixing and matching COVID vaccines (msn.com)

That's going t cause a public health sh*tstorm here, since our current national strategy officially involves mixing:  AZ people first dose are getting mRNA for second dose, and mRNA first dose  people are getting mixed courses of Pfizer / Moderna, depending which is available at the time of their second dose.

[wathe]

It's also going to make my mass vax clinic shift this week very not fun.  We'll likely have Moderna for second doses (because that's what there's lots of in the country right now), and patients are likely to have had Pfizer for first doses (because that's what there was lots of at the time).  There's already anti-Moderna bias here to start with.  This will make it even worse.

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

WHO warns against mixing and matching COVID vaccines (msn.com)

As is common, I think the headline and story over states what she actually said. Here’s her full quote:

“There are people who are thinking about mixing and matching. We receive a lot of queries from people who say they have taken one [dose] and are planning to take another one (doses). It’s a little bit of a dangerous trend here. We are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix and match,” Swaminathan said in an online briefing earlier in the day.

“There is limited data on mix and match. There are studies going on, we need to wait for that. Maybe it will be a very good approach. But, at the moment we only have data on the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, followed by Pfizer. It will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start deciding when and who will be taking a second, a third and a fourth dose,” she said.

[wathe]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

As is common, I think the headline and story over states what she actually said. Here’s her full quote:

“There are people who are thinking about mixing and matching. We receive a lot of queries from people who say they have taken one [dose] and are planning to take another one (doses). It’s a little bit of a dangerous trend here. We are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix and match,” Swaminathan said in an online briefing earlier in the day.

“There is limited data on mix and match. There are studies going on, we need to wait for that. Maybe it will be a very good approach. But, at the moment we only have data on the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, followed by Pfizer. It will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start deciding when and who will be taking a second, a third and a fourth dose,” she said.

I saw that.  Most people don't read beyond the headline, unfortunately.  

This WHO announcement is going to increase vaccine hesitancy here, and undermine public confidence.  Mixed dosing was already a tough sell, and this will make it ever so much worse.  More people are going to decline their second dose* and hold out for their preferred vaccine.  We can't afford delays in getting the population fully vaccinated ('cause Delta), and this is going to contribute to delays.

*Background on the Canadian situation for those who don't know:  We've had no end of supply difficulties.  Public health wanted to get as many people a first dose as quickly as possible (which made very good public health sense in vaccine-scarce conditions), so the dosing interval was extended to 16 weeks second doses weren't held back - the entire supply was administered for first doses as soon as possible.  We've had mostly Pfizer available since January (sources from Europe), and very little Moderna (sourced from USA, who had export bans), and lots of Pfizer in April and May when eligibility really opened up, so most people got Pfizer for their first dose.  Now we have a shortage of Pfizer, but plentiful Moderna.  And with delta breathing down our necks, public health has shortened the dosing interval back down to 4 weeks and endorsed a mixed-dosing regiment for mRNA vaccines, which also makes very good sense from a public health/population point of view.  So most people who got Pfizer for their first dose are now being provided with Moderna for their second dose.  And many of them are not happy about it.  Most accept it, but a small number decline and walk out.  I do about 60 - 80 shots per shift.  On Moderna days, I get grumbling/eye-roll/sigh from about half, and between 1 and 5 who decline and walk out.

There is also a weird anti-Moderna bias here, even for first doses, that defies logic.  Pfizer was the only one we had for a long time, so it's what people are used to hearing about and have somehow internalized that it's the original and the best, and that Moderna is some sort of knock-off brand.  Which makes no sense, of course. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by wathe

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

There is also a weird anti-Moderna bias here, even for first doses, that defies logic.  Pfizer was the only one we had for a long time, so it's what people are used to hearing about and have somehow internalized that it's the original and the best, and that Moderna is some sort of knock-off brand.  Which makes no sense, of course. 

That has long been the case in the US as well. It's a weird thing. I think Pfizer has been in the news more often with various study results and they have more of a "name brand" recognition for people. Some people don't seem to care that Moderna performs essentially just the same from what we have seen so far, to the point that the two get lumped together in a lot of studies. Moderna does seem to have slightly higher incidence of some of the annoying post-vaccine effects, but those typically last for one day, so I can't see making the decision based on that. Moderna needs to publish some good news soon so that Pfizer isn't the one dominating the good vaccine news.

[mommyoffive]

A third dose? - by Katelyn Jetelina - Your Local Epidemiologist (substack.com)

[KSera]

So here's the thing that's striking me as I read Covid stuff today. I keep seeing anti-vax people downplaying the rather significant risks from contracting Covid, but a the same time, expressing extreme concern about incredibly rare vaccine side effects. I just came across it again as pertains to 12 Mississippi Children in the ICU with Covid, 10 of whom are on ventilators.  The reply?

(And it's Mississippi, not Missourri 🙄)

I thought these people were supposedly so worried about the children? Apparently, serious health effects don't count if they are caused by Covid, but much more rare vaccine side effects are enough reason to not end the pandemic in the US by taking the readily available, free vaccine. I don't get it 🤷‍♀️.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

So here's the thing that's striking me as I read Covid stuff today. I keep seeing anti-vax people downplaying the rather significant risks from contracting Covid, but a the same time, expressing extreme concern about incredibly rare vaccine side effects. I just came across it again as pertains to 12 Mississippi Children in the ICU with Covid, 10 of whom are on ventilators.  The reply?

(And it's Mississippi, not Missourri 🙄)

I thought these people were supposedly so worried about the children? Apparently, serious health effects don't count if they are caused by Covid, but much more rare vaccine side effects are enough reason to not end the pandemic in the US by taking the readily available, free vaccine. I don't get it 🤷‍♀️.

I mean, I kind of get the response about COVID. If I were sure there were no long-term effects, the rates of severe initial disease from COVID would leave me pretty unworried about kids and not super interested in a kid vaccine. Everything comes with SOME risk, and COVID doesn't present much immediate risk for kids. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I kind of get the response about COVID. If I were sure there were no long-term effects, the rates of severe initial disease from COVID would leave me pretty unworried about kids and not super interested in a kid vaccine. Everything comes with SOME risk, and COVID doesn't present much immediate risk for kids. 

I don't see how that follows. The point is that even the unlikely risk of severe initial disease from Covid is more frequent than any kind of severe side effect from the vaccine. In the case of myocarditis, almost all of those have been non-serious where the child was only hospitalized as an extreme precaution for observation before being discharged (I read something reassuring yesterday from a doctor about that). Just a handful across the whole country have had a serious case, and none have died from it. So again, the point is that the risk from Covid is much higher even for kids than the vaccine.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

I don't see how that follows. The point is that even the unlikely risk of severe initial disease from Covid is more frequent than any kind of severe side effect from the vaccine. In the case of myocarditis, almost all of those have been non-serious where the child was only hospitalized as an extreme precaution for observation before being discharged (I read something reassuring yesterday from a doctor about that). Just a handful across the whole country have had a serious case, and none have died from it. So again, the point is that the risk from Covid is much higher even for kids than the vaccine.

I suppose in the case of extremely low risk I just tend to feel differently. 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I suppose in the case of extremely low risk I just tend to feel differently. 

You think it's reasonable for people to be very concerned that the vaccine is terribly dangerous and no one should get it, but not to be concerned by the disease itself? I'm not only talking about for kids, though that is the example I shared. It's the overall mindset that I don't get (including for kids in this case, since it's a pandemic). But these same people don't think anyone should be very worried about Covid. Yet they are worried about very rare side effects.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

You think it's reasonable for people to be very concerned that the vaccine is terribly dangerous and no one should get it, but not to be concerned by the disease itself? I'm not only talking about for kids, though that is the example I shared. It's the overall mindset that I don't get (including for kids in this case, since it's a pandemic). But these same people don't think anyone should be very worried about Covid. Yet they are worried about very rare side effects.

I don't think it's even reasonable for kids, since I worry about long-term effects. But if I honestly thought there were no long-term effects, then I wouldn't worry about 10 kids in the ICU much, in the same way that I don't worry about kids hospitalized with the flu all that much. 

But yes, I've seen people MUCH more worried about the vaccine than COVID, and that's silly on the face of it for basically every age group. 

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think it's even reasonable for kids, since I worry about long-term effects. But if I honestly thought there were no long-term effects, then I wouldn't worry about 10 kids in the ICU much, in the same way that I don't worry about kids hospitalized with the flu all that much. 

But yes, I've seen people MUCH more worried about the vaccine than COVID, and that's silly on the face of it for basically every age group. 

Just to be a little pedantic, it’s 12 kids in the ICU with 10 of them on ventilators. That’s just from Missouri. But again, it’s the overall idea. Take kids out of it entirely and let’s just focus on vaccines for adults. They’re not worried at all about Covid in adults but are warning other adults against getting vaccinated because they think the side effects are so dangerous. It makes no sense.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Just to be a little pedantic, it’s 12 kids in the ICU with 10 of them on ventilators. That’s just from Missouri. But again, it’s the overall idea. Take kids out of it entirely and let’s just focus on vaccines for adults. They’re not worried at all about Covid in adults but are warning other adults against getting vaccinated because they think the side effects are so dangerous. It makes no sense.

Well, yes, that part makes no sense. But I get a bit irritable when people give absolute numbers as evidence of danger without any sense of scale 😛 . 12 kids in the ICU is actually not very much, compared to other dangers kids face. 

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, yes, that part makes no sense. But I get a bit irritable when people give absolute numbers as evidence of danger without any sense of scale 😛 . 12 kids in the ICU is actually not very much, compared to other dangers kids face. 

Yeah, the point wasn’t that it was evidence of danger (and I did give the 1.6M kids in the state to give a sense of scale).The point is the extreme concern over minute numbers of serious vaccine reactions, coupled with no concern about Covid illness and death. I should have left the kid part out of it, because I think you’re getting distracted by that, and that’s not the point at all. It happened to be something I just saw, and in the specific context it was shared, it showed the inconsistency. In this context, it seems to have totally overshadowed the point I was actually trying to make. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Yeah, the point wasn’t that it was evidence of danger (and I did give the 1.6M kids in the state to give a sense of scale).The point is the extreme concern over minute numbers of serious vaccine reactions, coupled with no concern about Covid illness and death. I should have left the kid part out of it, because I think you’re getting distracted by that, and that’s not the point at all. It happened to be something I just saw, and in the specific context it was shared, it showed the inconsistency. In this context, it seems to have totally overshadowed the point I was actually trying to make. 

Sorry! I'm thinking about kid risks a lot right now. I feel fairly protected myself, being vaxxed... so all the gears in my head are spinning, trying to figure out risks to kids. So you're right, I got distracted. My bad. 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

So here's the thing that's striking me as I read Covid stuff today. I keep seeing anti-vax people downplaying the rather significant risks from contracting Covid, but a the same time, expressing extreme concern about incredibly rare vaccine side effects. I just came across it again as pertains to 12 Mississippi Children in the ICU with Covid, 10 of whom are on ventilators.  The reply?

(And it's Mississippi, not Missourri 🙄)

I thought these people were supposedly so worried about the children? Apparently, serious health effects don't count if they are caused by Covid, but much more rare vaccine side effects are enough reason to not end the pandemic in the US by taking the readily available, free vaccine. I don't get it 🤷‍♀️.

A lot of anti-vaxxers think covid may be killing "old" or medically compromised people, but it won't affect them because they're "healthy." One of the saddest stories last week was a 23 year old nurse in LA who died of covid. Last spring her social media was full of warnings about the dangers of covid, but by summer she'd been sucked into conspiracy land and was posting that the numbers were fake, warning people not to get the vaccine because it changes your DNA, it's all a plot to "control us," she'd quit her job if the hospital tried to force her to vax, etc. Photos show a fit, thin, healthy, smiling woman in her early 20s who is now dead because she believed the lies. A 32 yr old cop in Denver, who was vehemently anti-mask and anti-vaxx despite working at a jail that had outbreaks, died two weeks after adding the anti-vaxx slogan "I Have an immune System" to his FB profile. He left behind a wife and young son who will now grow up without a father because "having an immune system" didn't save him from a deadly pandemic. There was the father of 5 whose 13 yr old daughter said she felt sorriest for the two youngest siblings, who were 1 and 3, because they won't have any memory of him at all. A hospital administrator in MO posted about a man in his 40s who cried as he was about to be intubated, saying he was so sorry he didn't get the vaccine. He died the next day. So many lives lost and destroyed by those who spread lies and propaganda for political gain and revenue-generating clicks. 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

Just to be a little pedantic, it’s 12 kids in the ICU with 10 of them on ventilators. That’s just from Missouri. But again, it’s the overall idea. Take kids out of it entirely and let’s just focus on vaccines for adults. They’re not worried at all about Covid in adults but are warning other adults against getting vaccinated because they think the side effects are so dangerous. It makes no sense.

I'm with you! It's awful all around.

There was a good NPR a while back... Hidden Brain maybe? About risk talking and how people are terrible at evaluating risk. Like, we all drive in cars even though there are lots of accidents. We feel like we're in control when we're driving, because we're holding the wheel... But really a car could come around the corner, or switch lanes suddenly and we wouldn't be able to react in time. Flying, which is statistically safer, feels more dangerous to us because we are not controlling the plane. It's not logical, but...

 

I'm editing this to add that the person on the show said something about the mental  difference between doing something on purpose versus just letting things happen to you. So, trying to avoid Covid feels different than purposefully getting injected with a vaccine. For some reason, it feels more risky to actively do something, like get the vaccine, than just waiting to see what happens, with a "whatever will be will be attitude."

I'm currently in a situation like this with some dental work. I know that the longer I wait, the resulting situation will be even worse.... But somehow it feels so scary to actually bring myself to the dentist on purpose... Like I'm bringing it on myself if I go to the dentist, but if I wait till there's an emergency, it's just bad luck. Ugh. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Kanin

[Spryte]

Is there a way to view an updated adverse reaction list for teens?

I have two teens in my orbit who have had - what to call it? - emergency events shortly after their shots. Not cardiac related.  I’m not convinced it’s due to the shot, but odd to know two teens personally with emergency situations that are so similar.  

FWIW, everyone is still happy they had their shots, would do it again.  It’s just made me wonder.

[Corraleno]

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-halts-all-vaccine-outreach-minors-not-just-covid-19/7928701002/

Excerpt:

The Tennessee Department of Health will halt all adolescent vaccine outreach – not just for coronavirus, but all diseases – amid pressure from Republican state lawmakers, according to an internal report and agency emails obtained by the Tennessean. If the health department must issue any information about vaccines, staff are instructed to strip the agency logo off the documents.

The health department will also stop all COVID-19 vaccine events on school property, despite holding at least one such event this month. The decisions to end vaccine outreach and school events come directly from Health Commissioner Dr. Lisa Piercey, the internal report states.

 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/12/covid-19-tennessee-fired-vaccine-official-michelle-fiscus-fears-state/7945291002/

Excerpt from a statement by TN's top vaccine official, who was fired yesterday:

"It is the mission of the Tennessee Department of Health to “protect, promote and improve the health and prosperity of the people of Tennessee” and protecting them against the deadliest infectious disease event in more than 100 years IS our job. It’s the most important job we’ve had in recent history. Specifically, it was MY job to provide evidence-based education and vaccine access so that Tennesseans could protect themselves against COVID-19. I have now been terminated for doing exactly that.
...
What's more is that the leadership of the Tennessee Department of Health has reacted to the sabre rattling from the Government Operations Committee by halting ALL vaccination outreach for children. Not just COVID-19 vaccine outreach for teens, but ALL communications around vaccines of any kind. No back-to-school messaging to the more than 30,000 parents who did not get their children measles vaccines last year due to the pandemic.  No messaging around human papilloma virus vaccine to the residents of the state with one of the highest HPV cancer rates in the country. No observation of National Immunization Awareness Month in August. No reminders to the parents of teens who are late in receiving their second COVID-19 vaccine. THIS is a failure of public health to protect the people of Tennessee and THAT is what is “reprehensible”. When the people elected and appointed to lead this state put their political gains ahead of the public good, they have betrayed the people who have trusted them with their lives.
...
I have been terminated for doing my job because some of our politicians have bought into the anti-vaccine misinformation campaign rather than taking the time to speak with the medical experts. They believe what they choose to believe rather than what is factual and evidence-based. And it is the people of Tennessee who will suffer the consequences of the actions of the very people they put into power."

 

[wathe]

32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-halts-all-vaccine-outreach-minors-not-just-covid-19/7928701002/

Excerpt:

The Tennessee Department of Health will halt all adolescent vaccine outreach – not just for coronavirus, but all diseases – amid pressure from Republican state lawmakers, according to an internal report and agency emails obtained by the Tennessean. If the health department must issue any information about vaccines, staff are instructed to strip the agency logo off the documents.

The health department will also stop all COVID-19 vaccine events on school property, despite holding at least one such event this month. The decisions to end vaccine outreach and school events come directly from Health Commissioner Dr. Lisa Piercey, the internal report states.

 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/12/covid-19-tennessee-fired-vaccine-official-michelle-fiscus-fears-state/7945291002/

Excerpt from a statement by TN's top vaccine official, who was fired yesterday:

"It is the mission of the Tennessee Department of Health to “protect, promote and improve the health and prosperity of the people of Tennessee” and protecting them against the deadliest infectious disease event in more than 100 years IS our job. It’s the most important job we’ve had in recent history. Specifically, it was MY job to provide evidence-based education and vaccine access so that Tennesseans could protect themselves against COVID-19. I have now been terminated for doing exactly that.
...
What's more is that the leadership of the Tennessee Department of Health has reacted to the sabre rattling from the Government Operations Committee by halting ALL vaccination outreach for children. Not just COVID-19 vaccine outreach for teens, but ALL communications around vaccines of any kind. No back-to-school messaging to the more than 30,000 parents who did not get their children measles vaccines last year due to the pandemic.  No messaging around human papilloma virus vaccine to the residents of the state with one of the highest HPV cancer rates in the country. No observation of National Immunization Awareness Month in August. No reminders to the parents of teens who are late in receiving their second COVID-19 vaccine. THIS is a failure of public health to protect the people of Tennessee and THAT is what is “reprehensible”. When the people elected and appointed to lead this state put their political gains ahead of the public good, they have betrayed the people who have trusted them with their lives.
...
I have been terminated for doing my job because some of our politicians have bought into the anti-vaccine misinformation campaign rather than taking the time to speak with the medical experts. They believe what they choose to believe rather than what is factual and evidence-based. And it is the people of Tennessee who will suffer the consequences of the actions of the very people they put into power."

 

I saw the NYT version of the story.  It beggars belief.

“Nobody else in this state needs to die from Covid-19 because we have effective vaccines,” she said. “And the fact that we have elected and appointed officials that are putting barriers up to protecting those Tennesseans is, I think, it’s unforgivable.”  

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, Kanin said:

I'm editing this to add that the person on the show said something about the mental  difference between doing something on purpose versus just letting things happen to you. So, trying to avoid Covid feels different than purposefully getting injected with a vaccine. For some reason, it feels more risky to actively do something, like get the vaccine, than just waiting to see what happens, with a "whatever will be will be attitude."

I’ve actually thought about this a lot! You choose to get the vaccine but not COVID, and that feels really different.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ve actually thought about this a lot! You choose to get the vaccine but not COVID, and that feels really different.

I’ve struggled with that as regards some of the childhood vaccines for rare illnesses. I’ve done it differently at different times for different kids, but it does suck when your baby has a bad reaction to a vaccine for an illness you weren’t really concerned they were going to catch anyway. It feels 100% different with Covid to me, because at this point, the choices are to get the vaccine or get Covid. Unless someone is going to lock themselves down to avoid it, or has already had Covid, choosing not to get the vaccine is to choose to almost certainly get Covid instead at this point.  And with the way Delta is going, likely in the next few months. (I am increasingly worried about a new variant evolving that sets us back to the beginning based on this amount of transmission being allowed to continue. Every reproduction cycle increases that risk.)

[whitestavern]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ve struggled with that as regards some of the childhood vaccines for rare illnesses. I’ve done it differently at different times for different kids, but it does suck when your baby has a bad reaction to a vaccine for an illness you weren’t really concerned they were going to catch anyway. It feels 100% different with Covid to me, because at this point, the choices are to get the vaccine or get Covid. Unless someone is going to lock themselves down to avoid it, or has already had Covid, choosing not to get the vaccine is to choose to almost certainly get Covid instead at this point.  And with the way Delta is going, likely in the next few months. (I am increasingly worried about a new variant evolving that sets us back to the beginning based on this amount of transmission being allowed to continue. Every reproduction cycle increases that risk.)

I don't understand this line of thinking. I'm careful and use common sense. I wear an N95 mask (have been since the first whiff of Covid) and have lived a completely normal life with the exception of not eating indoors. I guess one might say I've been lucky? But I feel very comfortable. I've been working at my office, eating and socializing outside, shopping, attended an outdoor wedding, etc. How am I sure to get Covid? 

ETA: I suppose it's possible I might have had it, though no idea how, and if I did I was asymptomatic. But it's possible. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by whitestavern