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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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I have a cousin who had Covid early on, got the vaccine as soon as he was eligible, and just recovered from Covid a second time. 😳 The second time was way worse and the family was worried he wouldn’t make it. I’m guessing he is just unlucky and that he doesn’t seem to be developing an immunity to the virus at all? 

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3 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I have a cousin who had Covid early on, got the vaccine as soon as he was eligible, and just recovered from Covid a second time. 😳 The second time was way worse and the family was worried he wouldn’t make it. I’m guessing he is just unlucky and that he doesn’t seem to be developing an immunity to the virus at all? 

There are some people who are like that with different viruses.  Some people got chicken pox multiple times even though that’s usually a virus with life long immunity.  It’s just one of those things.  Human bodies do weird things sometimes.  

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23 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I have a cousin who had Covid early on, got the vaccine as soon as he was eligible, and just recovered from Covid a second time. 😳 The second time was way worse and the family was worried he wouldn’t make it. I’m guessing he is just unlucky and that he doesn’t seem to be developing an immunity to the virus at all? 

Sounds like for some his body isn’t mounting a proper immune response. Does he have any known immuno deficiency? I read a study the other day that the monoclonal antibodies are helpful for people who are not mounting their own immune response. 

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5 hours ago, Joker2 said:

I have a cousin who had Covid early on, got the vaccine as soon as he was eligible, and just recovered from Covid a second time. 😳 The second time was way worse and the family was worried he wouldn’t make it. I’m guessing he is just unlucky and that he doesn’t seem to be developing an immunity to the virus at all? 

It would probably be a good idea to see an immunologist. I have a friend who had a kidney transplant and has no discernible antibodies after both mRNA doses, so they’ve been referred to immunology to hopefully figure out what is going on. 

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Preliminary trial results on a German mRNA vaccine, CureVac, indicate an unexpectedly low efficacy rate of only 47%. The linked article goes into some of the technical details, but the short version is that Pfizer & Moderna use a specially modified form of mRNA that seems to enhance immune response, whereas CureVac chose to use the unmodified version. CureVac also used a much lower dose — 12 mcg vs 30 for Pfizer and 100 for Moderna — and the article suggests that they may have been forced to use a lower dose due to side effects caused by the unmodified form of mRNA. Of course they are also testing against more dangerous variants compared to the earlier trials for Pfizer & Moderna, but that is clearly only part of the issue, since CureVac did very poorly even against the Alpha (UK) variant, which Pfizer is quite effective against. It's especially disappointing since CureVac is supposedly easier to store and handle than Pfizer and Moderna, and many were hoping it would combine the efficacy of the first mRNA vaccines with storage requirements that would be more realistic in poorer countries.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/what-went-wrong-curevac-s-highly-anticipated-new-mrna-vaccine-covid-19

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On 6/18/2021 at 12:24 PM, wathe said:

Here's some new vaccine fun:

New York is declining to recognize those who've had a full course of AstraZeneca covid vaccine as vaccinated, and denying entry to venues based on that.  We'll see how this evolves.  There are huge implications for international travel (not to mention millions of angry Canadians - the USA sent us that much of that AZ after all)

"David Screech had already selected his seats and put in his credit card information for Springsteen on Broadway tickets when he noticed the COVID-19 vaccine requirements: his two doses of AstraZeneca-Oxford wouldn't be enough for admission.

Screech, the mayor of View Royal, B.C., and a Springsteen fan of 40 years, received his second AstraZeneca dose last week, but the Jujamcyn Theaters' website said it would only allow guests "fully vaccinated with an FDA-approved vaccine" — Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson."

"Live tapings of TV shows including Saturday Night Live and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert also snub AstraZeneca doses in rules listed on their websites, which say they're acting "at the direction of New York state."

 

I was kind of gratified to see that Agnes Scott’s Vaccination form includes having had a full cycle of ANY COVID vaccine approved by national government, or proof of COVID immunity-just like any other vaccine. They have about 20% international students in a typical year, and while some stayed in the USA and on campus last year, some presumably went home when shutdown happened in 2020 (and I assume at least some new ones in the class of 2025). It makes a lot more sense than to say that a vaccine approved in another country is somehow not valid-especially since most of these kids would have had to be vaccinated to get on a flight in their home country! 

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21 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

It would probably be a good idea to see an immunologist. I have a friend who had a kidney transplant and has no discernible antibodies after both mRNA doses, so they’ve been referred to immunology to hopefully figure out what is going on. 

At this point it's been pretty well established that many transplant recipients aren't getting a very good response to the vaccines due to the immune suppressing anti-rejection medicines they have to take. The same lack of response is occurring in people with some blood cancers and people on certain immune suppressing medications. Although your friend's situation is unfortunate, there's probably no need to see anyone about it at this point, I don't think. TPTB are trying to figure it out--if a booster will help, etc. Until that's decided I'm not sure there's much that can be done other than continuing to mask, social distance, etc.

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On 6/18/2021 at 5:31 PM, Laura Corin said:

I suspect they don't have confidence in the vaccines developed in China and Russia,  and AZ got caught in the crossfire. 

I think it was just a case of making a policy without really thinking.

I see that New York State has amended their guidance to include both FDA and WHO authorized vaccines.  Though I don't see it on the NYS website - probably just don't know where to look to get the full policy details.

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Canadian update:

In my province, we've started doing mixed dose regimens.  It's been very hard for the public to accept.

Those who had AZ for a first dose are recommended to get mRNA for a second dose.  That's been generally well accepted.

Those who've had mRNA for a first dose, get mRNA for the second dose, but not necessarily the same product.  We had a lot of Pfizer initially, so a lot of people had that for their first dose. We now have a plentiful Moderna supply, and a shortage of Pfizer.  So people who had Pfizer for their first dose are showing up to mass vax appointments and being offered Moderna for their second dose (as per NACI guidelines).  They don't know this until they are in the chair (those who pay attention to media should know this was likely to happen, but many don't, apparently).  They are generally NOT happy about it. 

We also have this weird thing where the public has latched onto Pfizer as "the best" and decline Moderna even for first doses.  I have had people walk out on me when we run Moderna clinics.

I spent my day yesterday at a mass max clinic disappointing person after person after person who expected orhoped for Pfizer, and all I had to offer was Moderna.  Not a fun day for any of us.

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30 minutes ago, wathe said:

Canadian update:

In my province, we've started doing mixed dose regimens.  It's been very hard for the public to accept.

Those who had AZ for a first dose are recommended to get mRNA for a second dose.  That's been generally well accepted.

Those who've had mRNA for a first dose, get mRNA for the second dose, but not necessarily the same product.  We had a lot of Pfizer initially, so a lot of people had that for their first dose. We now have a plentiful Moderna supply, and a shortage of Pfizer.  So people who had Pfizer for their first dose are showing up to mass vax appointments and being offered Moderna for their second dose (as per NACI guidelines).  They don't know this until they are in the chair (those who pay attention to media should know this was likely to happen, but many don't, apparently).  They are generally NOT happy about it. 

We also have this weird thing where the public has latched onto Pfizer as "the best" and decline Moderna even for first doses.  I have had people walk out on me when we run Moderna clinics.

I spent my day yesterday at a mass max clinic disappointing person after person after person who expected orhoped for Pfizer, and all I had to offer was Moderna.  Not a fun day for any of us.

Woah? Why do they think Moderna is worse? I've thought the two were virtually interchangeable?

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@wathe Thank you for explaining the mixed doses.  I know one Canadian IRL, and I know that he received one dose of Moderna and one of Pfizer.  Your explanation makes sense.  I don't remember which one he got first.

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Just now, vonfirmath said:

Woah? Why do they think Moderna is worse? I've thought the two were virtually interchangeable?

I know, it's weird.  But it's definitely a thing.  And it doesn't make any logical sense.

Pfizer was the first to be approved here, and was the one we had the most supply of for quite a long time.  It's got brand recognition.

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22 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Woah? Why do they think Moderna is worse? I've thought the two were virtually interchangeable?

I see a lot of news that talks about how good Pfizer.  There's a lot of data on Pfizer, (maybe? Probably? because of the agreement they have with Israel), but there isn't quite as much data on Moderna, so it makes the news less often. 

That's not to say that Moderna isn't as effective as Pfizer, or that there isn't data on it. It's just that there is so much data on Pfizer, and which drives the news reports.  It seems to overshadow the other vaccine products. I am guessing that is influencing the public perception of which vax is "better". 

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35 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Woah? Why do they think Moderna is worse? I've thought the two were virtually interchangeable?

I had the impression Moderna had a higher dosage? Is that correct, does anyone know? 

But yes, I thought they were VERY similar. 

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1 hour ago, wathe said:

Canadian update:

In my province, we've started doing mixed dose regimens.  It's been very hard for the public to accept.

Those who had AZ for a first dose are recommended to get mRNA for a second dose.  That's been generally well accepted.

Those who've had mRNA for a first dose, get mRNA for the second dose, but not necessarily the same product.  We had a lot of Pfizer initially, so a lot of people had that for their first dose. We now have a plentiful Moderna supply, and a shortage of Pfizer.  So people who had Pfizer for their first dose are showing up to mass vax appointments and being offered Moderna for their second dose (as per NACI guidelines).  They don't know this until they are in the chair (those who pay attention to media should know this was likely to happen, but many don't, apparently).  They are generally NOT happy about it. 

We also have this weird thing where the public has latched onto Pfizer as "the best" and decline Moderna even for first doses.  I have had people walk out on me when we run Moderna clinics.

I spent my day yesterday at a mass max clinic disappointing person after person after person who expected orhoped for Pfizer, and all I had to offer was Moderna.  Not a fun day for any of us.

I would be uncomfortable with this. Those people are essentially guinea pigs as there has been no testing of that regimen. 

In my circle, everyone thinks Pfizer is better. Most people I know waited to be vaccinated until they could choose. 

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12 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I see a lot of news that talks about how good Pfizer.  There's a lot of data on Pfizer, (maybe? Probably? because of the agreement they have with Israel), but there isn't quite as much data on Moderna, so it makes the news less often. 

Pfizer is going to be better at marketing because they are pros at it. Also, it’s been in the news more because they were first to get EUA for adults, then more recently, first for teens. They also took a chance and asked for down to 16 with the adult EUA even without much data, so they have been the only one available for under 18. 
 

Moderna is given at a higher dose, though, and there is a perception that there are more symptoms after Moderna and that the dose may be the reason. Maybe that’s due to subtle marketing, too, but it is a higher dose. Today at the ACIP meeting discussing myocarditis, there was a suggestion that Moderna may be “driving” the cases of myocarditis in younger people, though the caveat was given that numbers are small so even slight differences in numbers over time could make it seem to go either way with more cases after one brand vs. the other.

Edited by Penelope
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8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Pfizer is going to be better at marketing because they are pros at it. Also, it’s been in the news more because they were first to get EUA for adults, then more recently, first for teens. They also took a chance and asked for down to 16 with the adult EUA even without much data, so they have been the only one available for under 18. 
 

Moderna is given at a higher dose, though, and there is a perception that there are more symptoms after Moderna and that the dose may be the reason. Maybe that’s due to subtle marketing, too, but it is a higher dose. Today at the ACIP meeting discussing myocarditis, there was a suggestion that Moderna may be “driving” the cases of myocarditis in younger people, though the caveat was given that numbers are small so even slight differences in numbers over time could make it seem to go either way with more cases after one brand vs. the other.

When I ran the symptoms poll on here, it definitely suggested more symptoms for Moderna. Not randomized, of course, but given the dosage and the trial data, highly suggestive. 

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I signed up, and was told I'd get Pfizer, and when I showed up all they had was Moderna.  I was mildly disappointed.  A week later, when my mom got Pfizer, I was pleased for her.

At that point, things were surging here, and I wanted to be protected a week earlier.  It also seemed like the people in our family who got Pfizer had less annoying symptoms.  

A bigger issue, here, was that initially the first group of 16 and 17 year olds who qualified were individuals with IDD.  Because of my job, I know a fair number of people in that category, and several signed up for Pfizer clinics and then arriving and finding out that the clinic had changed fo Moderna and they had to go home.  

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6 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I would be uncomfortable with this. Those people are essentially guinea pigs as there has been no testing of that regimen. 

In my circle, everyone thinks Pfizer is better. Most people I know waited to be vaccinated until they could choose. 

You are right about testing, but we are stuck with imperfect due to supply limitations.

We've, as a country, been forced to make difficult decisions with imperfect data.  We've had such limited supply.  We elected to delay second doses to get as many people a first dose as possible, even though delayed second dosing hadn't been tested.   Which was the only ethical choice from a public health point of view, really, during our horrific third wave that came a hair's breadth away from causing total health care system collapse; pretty good immunity with one dose in twice as many people would save many more lives than full immunity in half as many.  So we didn't save product-matched second doses; we couldn't ethically hold back vaccine.  Now we are in a position, with the delta variant breathing down our necks, where we really, really want to accelerate second doses.  But we don't have the supply of matched product to  do that.  Mixed-dose regimens now will save more lives than delaying second doses for a matched-dose regimen.  Again, from a public health point of view, it's a very ethical choice.  

Unfortunately, the regimen change wasn't as well advertised as it should have been and people felt blind-sided.

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35 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Thank you so much for posting this!!!!!

You’re welcome. I thought of you immediately. Would be so wonderful for transplant recipients to be able to be better protected. 

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Novavax, same general type of vaccine as used for Hep B, HPV, pertussis.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/

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Persistent hype around mRNA vaccine technology is now distracting us from other ways to end the pandemic

At the end of January, reports that yet another COVID-19 vaccine had succeeded in its clinical trials—this one offering about 70 percent protection—were front-page news in the United States, and occasioned push alerts on millions of phones. But when the Maryland-based biotech firm Novavax announced its latest stunning trial results last week, and an efficacy rate of more than 90 percent even against coronavirus variants, the response from the same media outlets was muted in comparison. The difference, of course, was the timing: With three vaccines already authorized for emergency use by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the nation is “awash in other shots” already, as the The New York Times put it.

Practically speaking, this is true. If the FDA sees no urgency, the Novavax vaccine might not be available in the U.S. for months, and in the meantime the national supply of other doses exceeds demand. But the asymmetry in coverage also hints at how the hype around the early-bird vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna has distorted perception. Their rapid arrival has been described in this magazine as “the triumph of mRNA”—a brand-new vaccine technology whose “potential stretches far beyond this pandemic.” Other outlets gushed about “a turning point in the long history of vaccines,” one that “changed biotech forever.” It was easy to assume, based on all this reporting, that mRNA vaccines had already proved to be the most effective ones you could get—that they were better, sleeker, even cooler than any other vaccines could ever be.

 

Quote

But the fascination with the newest, shiniest options obscured some basic facts. These two particular mRNA vaccines may have been the first to get results from Phase 3 clinical trials, but that’s because of superior trial management, not secret vaccine sauce. For now, they are harder and more expensive to manufacture and distribute than traditional types of vaccines, and their side effects are more common and more severe. The latest Novavax data confirm that it’s possible to achieve the same efficacy against COVID-19 with a more familiar technology that more people may be inclined to trust. (The mRNA vaccines delivered efficacy rates of 95 and 94 percent against the original coronavirus strain in Phase 3 trials, as compared with 96 percent for Novavax in its first trial, and now 90 percent against a mixture of variants.

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The Novavax vaccine also has a substantially lower rate of side effects than the authorized mRNA vaccines. Last week’s data showed that about 40 percent of people who receive Novavax report fatigue after the second dose, as compared with 65 percent for Moderna and more than 55 percent for Pfizer. Based on the results of Novavax’s first efficacy trial in the U.K., side effects (including but not limited to fatigue) aren’t just less frequent; they’re milder too. That’s a very big deal for people on hourly wages, who already bear a disproportionate risk of getting COVID-19, and who have been less likely to get vaccinated in part because of the risk of losing days of work to post-vaccine fever, pain, or malaise. Side effects are a big barrier for COVID-vaccine acceptance. The CDC reported on Monday that, according to a survey conducted in the spring, only about half of adults under the age of 40 have gotten the vaccine or definitely intend to do so, and that, among the rest, 56 percent say they are concerned about side effects. Lower rates of adverse events are likely to be a bigger issue still for parents, when considering vaccination for their children.

 

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1 hour ago, Penelope said:

The latest Novavax data confirm that it’s possible to achieve the same efficacy against COVID-19 with a more familiar technology that more people may be inclined to trust. (The mRNA vaccines delivered efficacy rates of 95 and 94 percent against the original coronavirus strain in Phase 3 trials, as compared with 96 percent for Novavax in its first trial, and now 90 percent against a mixture of variants.

Between this and the lower side effects, I think this one should get more attention and get approval as soon as is prudent. Maybe this is the one people would finally feel comfortable enough with to get. Especially people who think there's something woo about mRNA vaccines.

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3 hours ago, KSera said:

Between this and the lower side effects, I think this one should get more attention and get approval as soon as is prudent. Maybe this is the one people would finally feel comfortable enough with to get. Especially people who think there's something woo about mRNA vaccines.

The UK is planning to use it if an autumn booster is needed.

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Novavax's covid vaccine has a significant manufacturing issue that the mRNA vaccines don't — it relies on a proprietary adjuvant to boost immunity, and that adjuvant contains a saponin that only exists in the bark of a tree that grows in Chile. That can obviously create a bottleneck when trying to scale up to the level of billions of doses, and it seems that was part of the manufacturing problem Novavax had last year that delayed their US trial. But there are companies working on synthetic and semi-synthetic versions of it, as well as efforts to increase the number of trees being planted, improve extraction efficiency, etc. The Atlantic had a really interesting article about this last fall. If they're able to solve the manufacturing issues and really scale up, Novavax seems to offer the best of both worlds — the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines with the simple storage and transport requirements of AZ or J&J. They also have a new flu vaccine (NanoFlu) that was highly effective in Phase 3 trials, and they are looking into the possibility of a combined flu/covid vaccine.

It will be interesting to see what conspiracy nuts do with the fact that Novavax uses cells from army worm ovaries (actually moth larvae) to grow their spike proteins, though... (cue a flurry of new Mothman sightings, lol)

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Since the UK has so many more people vaccinated than the US, does that mean we're pretty much guaranteed to see cases rise again soon? I'm already feeling nervous about fall teaching...

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Question - DD is 11. She turns 12 in November. She's going back to school in August and I don't think they will have any COVID precautions at the school. It's a Catholic school so I don't think will be high vaccine compliance amongst the teachers. It's a K-8 school so most kids will not be vaccinated. 

What do you think about lying about DD's birthday and getting her vaxxed with the Pfizer vaccine? There is a surplus of vaccines now so it wouldn't be taking a vaccine from someone else. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What do you think about lying about DD's birthday and getting her vaxxed with the Pfizer vaccine? There is a surplus of vaccines now so it wouldn't be taking a vaccine from someone else. 

I wouldn't do it, but I'm a rule follower like that. I would also worry if whoever gave her the vaccine could get in trouble if/when it is discovered (which it seems likely would be once it shows up in the vaccine data base, unless you live in Texas). I'm actually hopeful the trials of lower doses for younger kids will go well and will mean they can use a lower dose for younger kids and hopefully that will also reduce side effects even more. It's crummy timing with school, because it's likely approvals won't come through until September.

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@Ordinary Shoes I wouldn't do that.  The adult dose seems excessive to me to be using for an eleven year old, and I think that it might be part of the issue with the myocarditis.  I'm actually waiting on getting my twelve year old the second shot and was wondering about lying and saying he's 11, so he could get the smaller dose.  It just seems crazy to me to give the same does to a 300 pound man and an 80 pound kid, but then give only a third of that to a child a month younger.  Also, I don't think the school will have a lower vax rate just because it's Catholic.  Most Catholics I know are pro-vax.  The anomaly is the homeschool Catholics who are also more anti-vax and anti-science in general, but that's not going to bear out on the teachers in the school.

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I might have lied about dd's age if I was really worried about exposure situations AND she was within 6 months of being 12 AND she was not small in stature/weight.  My youngest is turning 14 but she started her period when she was 9 and has been 5 foot 5 inches and over 100 pounds since she was 10 1/2.  

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34 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I might have lied about dd's age if I was really worried about exposure situations AND she was within 6 months of being 12 AND she was not small in stature/weight.  My youngest is turning 14 but she started her period when she was 9 and has been 5 foot 5 inches and over 100 pounds since she was 10 1/2.  

Thanks. DD has already had her period and began developing. She's an inch shorter than me and is over 100 pounds. 

I don't want to get anyone into trouble though. 

This would be so much easier if I would rely on other people to do the right thing but you can't. 

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31 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

This would be so much easier if I would rely on other people to do the right thing but you can't. 

Quoted for truth.

I would worry that if her vaccine info was entered into the health department with the wrong birthdate it wouldn't get connected to her record.  So, if you were in a situation down the line where you needed to prove her immunization status, it would be hard. I think this vaccine will be mandatory in schools once it's no longer under EUA.  It would be totally illogical to require polio vaccination and not covid.  So, being able to prove that she got it at the right time seems key.

I will also say, that for my kid who is a few months younger, I'm not that worried about him getting it.  I'm super protective of him, because other people being cautious made a huge difference for our family, as did people who weren't cautious, and I want to repay society the favor, but I'm not that worried that he himself will get sick.  He's scheduled to go to our big local public middle school in the fall, and although we have mask policies, and high vaccine rates, it's still huge with crowded classrooms and kids coming in on buses which means that kids from different classes are mixing.  

My kid weighs more than his Grandma at this point, and she got vaccinated.  So, I get the temptation, but I'm not doing it. 

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51 minutes ago, popmom said:

Is there any info on whether the J and J vaccine is effective against the Delta variant? I can't find anything online. Dh and 2 of my dds opted to get J and J. 

 

I read somewhere that it is effective against the Delta variant, but I forgot to save the link and I’m not sure where I read it. My family had the J&J vaccine, so I have been keeping an eye out for any new information that becomes available. 

One positive thing I read was that the J&J vaccine has proven more effective than was originally stated. I will try to find the links tomorrow so you can see the exact numbers. 

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Cross posting from the covid megathread. This seems promising regarding protection against the delta strain. Not sure which vaccine but would have had the Pfizer or AZ depending on age and when they had it.

'The highly contagious Delta strain of COVID-19 infected everyone who attended a Sydney birthday party except for the six people who were vaccinated, the NSW Government said.'

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/vaccinated-attendees-west-hoxton-birthday-party-avoid-covid-19/100249612

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9 hours ago, Kanin said:

Since the UK has so many more people vaccinated than the US, does that mean we're pretty much guaranteed to see cases rise again soon? I'm already feeling nervous about fall teaching...

The rise here in symptomatic  cases has mostly,  I believe, been among young people who have only just become eligible for vaccination. The cases in my son's university town are extremely high. So vaccination does seem to be important. ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/27/leeds-waits-for-vaccine-as-covid-rates-go-sky-high-in-student-areas

4 hours ago, popmom said:

Is there any info on whether the J and J vaccine is effective against the Delta variant? I can't find anything online. Dh and 2 of my dds opted to get J and J. 

 

I haven't heard of J and J being used in India, and it's not part of the main programme in the UK, so I  don't know if there are any actual data. This article contains a suggestion of what efficacy might be.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/booster-shots-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine.html

Edited by Laura Corin
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7 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

The rise here in symptomatic  cases has mostly,  I believe, been among young people who have only just become eligible for vaccination. The cases in my son's university town are extremely high. So vaccination does seem to be important. ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/27/leeds-waits-for-vaccine-as-covid-rates-go-sky-high-in-student-areas

I haven't heard of J and J being used in India, and it's not part of the main programme in the UK, so I  don't know if there are any actual data. This article contains a suggestion of what efficacy might be.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/booster-shots-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine.html

Thanks, it's good to know that rates are highest with young, unvaccinated people. 

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9 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I read somewhere that it is effective against the Delta variant, but I forgot to save the link and I’m not sure where I read it. My family had the J&J vaccine, so I have been keeping an eye out for any new information that becomes available. 

One positive thing I read was that the J&J vaccine has proven more effective than was originally stated. I will try to find the links tomorrow so you can see the exact numbers. 

I also read that it is a bit more effective at 60 days than at 14 or 28 days. 
 

There is this laboratory study indicating activity against alpha, beta, and gamma, and we know from the original phase 3 trial results that it showed effectiveness against beta and gamma. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03681-2

I read that someone is doing a study on this vaccine and Delta. I would expect it would be similar to results from Pfizer and AZ, still expected to be effective against hospitalization and death.
 

Unfortunately, the number that keeps going around is that 33% after dose 1 of Pfizer, but that’s only when they counted any case occurring after first dose. For more than 2 weeks after first dose, it gets up in the 90’s percentiles, and overall numbers are apparently not much different for Pfizer and AZ than they are for alpha variant. Given that, I am not sure why some reports are still saying you need two doses of mRNA for Delta. Maybe they mean for symptomatic disease, and not hospitalization? I’m not sure. 
 

There are questions about whether people who got J&J should get an mRNA booster shot because of Delta, or just because it’s one dose, and mixed opinions with no data. Andy Slavitt said he asked several experts and some said wait for data, while others said you could get a booster if you want. I don’t know how feasible that is to do if you are already in a registry as having been vaccinated.

I saw an article about studies that should allow for updated recommendations about this in a couple of months. Some people seem to wonder about this just because AZ is two doses, but there are some major differences in the vaccines. 
 

 

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On 6/26/2021 at 4:57 AM, KSera said:

Between this and the lower side effects, I think this one should get more attention and get approval as soon as is prudent. Maybe this is the one people would finally feel comfortable enough with to get. Especially people who think there's something woo about mRNA vaccines.

Novovax has been trying to get UK approval since March, but so far as not managed it due to problems with production consistency (presumably because of the sap issue @Corraleno cited). It is not clear when it will successfully demonstrate the necessary production consistency.

Penelope, the reports do mean two shots are needed to get the headline figure for not catching COVID-19 in the first place (symptomatic or otherwise). Due to the problems that are being reported from people who have complications not involving a hospital visit for COVID (11.6% chance of post-COVID first-time psychiatric/neurological problem in certain specific categories in the 6-month period after catching COVID without hospitalisation for COVID), that's starting to become a concern for the medical profession; we could be carrying the consequences of COVID for a long time even after reducing the infection itself to a rare and mostly-minor issue.

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
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1 hour ago, Penelope said:

Unfortunately, the number that keeps going around is that 33% after dose 1 of Pfizer, but that’s only when they counted any case occurring after first dose. For more than 2 weeks after first dose, it gets up in the 90’s percentiles

I'm curious where you read that, because that's not what the preprint says: 

"Vaccination status was considered as dose 1 for symptom onset 21 days or more after the first dose up to the day before the second dose was received; dose 2 for symptom onset = 14 days or more after the second dose."

So the 33% stat for 1 dose actually covers days 21 to 120.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1.full.pdf

Edited by Corraleno
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