And...Kingfisher strikes again. Here's your chance...

[Susan Wise Bauer]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

 

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

 

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

 

SWB

[readwithem]

wow that's amazing!! Do you think they're out to get you? :)

 

Maybe Usborne Encyclopedia of World History but I don't like it nearly as much as Kingfisher.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-World-History-Jane-Bingham/dp/0794503322/ref=pd_sim_b_3

 

Do you think the red book will go > $100 like the white book did?:lol:

[Nicole M]

Oh, dear.

 

We are using some of Suzanne Strauss Art's books, but to be honest, they aren't terrifically homeschool friendly (imho). It's hard to know how much to cover and at what pace, what a reasonable amount would be for a lesson. That was a nice feature of Kingfisher, do-able chunks.

 

I'm curious to know what others will say.

 

Sorry about this. Pretty awful time of year to have to make last minute changes.

[Tami]

For our second ancients cycle, 7th grade, we are using the Usborne Encyclopedia of the Ancient World and the two Famous Men books (Greece and Rome.

 

For 8th grade, we plan to use 100 Most Important Events in Church History, Heroes of the Middle Ages by Tappan, along with the Usborne Internet Linked Medieval World.

 

We'll probably go with Western Civilization by Spielvogel for the rest of the cycle, up to modern times, but not totally sure yet. :tongue_smilie:

 

Blessings on your search!

 

*edit -- I saw that Usborne has a World History Encyclopedia that is Internet-Linked. It may be a suitable substitute for the elusive KF?

Edited December 3, 2008 by Tami

[Blossom'sGirl]

We get free access through our local school district. This would also help children gain skills in computer research. I have not approached outlining yet with my oldest, but I think he could do it with a list of topics to read and then briefly outline each. The biggest problem would be not getting overwhelmed with the amount of information available. That is where a specific list may help. I typed in Phoenicians just to see what I came up and the first topic was Tyre with 3 interesting paragraphs about it.

 

I still like pouring through real books but the constant updating of history books will always be an issue.

[inashoe]

with Logic Stage History. We want a text suitable for outlining for a typical 5th grader. It is important that our dc learn to outline, and history is an ideal subject in which to do it. JUST GIVE US THE TEXT :banghead:

 

We were spoilt with SOTW - it was interesting, fascinated our grammar stage kids, gave them a love for History, just enough facts. But now they are ready for more indepth, KF is too superficial - briefly giving the barest of facts.

 

Everything I have looked at is just too difficult for a 5th grader to outline. Streams of Civilizations is nice to read, but not many facts. Library books typically cover one topic per chapter, lots of fluff, with the facts few and far between. Not easy for a 10yo to outline.

 

Sometimes I think I should just switch to Trisms.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

but I prefer Usbourne's Internet-Linked World Encyclopedia.

 

It's very "outline-friendly" if not as detailed as KFH.

 

hth,

 

K

[Beth in Central TX]

I'll second Streams of Civilization Volumes I & II; I'm using them at a very slow pace from 5th to 8th grade.

[Nicole M]

I'll second Streams of Civilization Volumes I & II; I'm using them at a very slow pace from 5th to 8th grade.

 

Well, I hope Susan would offer a secular alternative. There is no way that this would work for us, though we are comfortable with many Christian texts, and are ourselves Christian.

 

I really don't mean to be offensive, so I hope that this does not come across that way. I'm just not convinced that SOC would have a broad appeal.

[Trivium Academy]

How about the H.E. Marshall books? or M.B. Synge?

We have Streams but we'll be reading the Marshall and Synge books the most as a spine.

 

I know it'd be more expensive but what about Eyewitness Books on topics? I like DK History: The Definitive Visual Guide, I actually sold our Kingfisher (Mandela cover) b/c I wasn't thrilled with it overall.

[Kimber]

I don't know if the vocabulary is too hard, but for the high school kids at co-op this year, I had them outline the Visual History of the Modern World. It was great for outlining.

 

It's a bummer that this happened.

 

Kimberly

[sagira]

I was just going to say DK's History of the World. It keeps being revised, the latest edition being 2007. It's sure to be visually interesting and secular.

 

Too bad, because I liked Kingfisher's History Encyclopedia. My library used to carry it, but now it's mysteriously disappeared. I wanted to get it, but my dc are so young by then the latest will be/could be significantly revised (5 years from now).

Edited December 3, 2008 by sagira

[Nicole M]

I think she is just a tad busy to add "write Logic stage history Text" to her to-do list.:D I think that is why she is asking us for help. I am sure it is just as frustrating for her as it is for us.

 

Based on the number of posts here about logic stage history, I'm thinkin' there's definitely a market for a new book!

 

The irony, though, is that there has been pretty much no consensus here, but only continual angst, and I have been holding my breath, waiting for the new edition, hoping for Problem Solved.

[Pongo]

I would go with Oxfords Childrens History of the World by Neil Grant, thats what we use. Its a combniation of Usborne/Kingfisher style. My dd has been outling this even though we use TOG. I own the Kingfisher(red cover) but I never felt like it was "outline friendly" for a logic stage child. Instead I have her outline the corrosponding chapters to the Oxford text. It is secular, I just skipped the first two chapters. It's under $20 and it's great!

 

ETA: The Oxfords Childrens Book of Science is also really good

Edited December 3, 2008 by Pongo

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I really like the Oxford Children's History of the World. I love the Oxford history books in general. I don't know what the availability is given Amazon's 2-4 week shipping statement on this item, but it looks similar to Kingfisher.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228321915&sr=1-2

 

The problem I have with DK is that the outlining work is practically already done for the kids. There is no real flow to the story of history, just snippets of information and bullets. I'm nowhere near logic stage with my kids yet, but it seems that you would need history presented in story form in order to develop the skill of condensing it to its most important points for outline form.

 

Kristina

 

ETA: Well, I took 20 minutes to write this, feeding kids graham crackers... In essence, I agree with Pongo!

Edited December 3, 2008 by Alte Veste Academy

[angela&4boys]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:

 

 

 

• clear, concise presentation
  
• readily available
  
• budget-friendly
  
• internet extensions
  
• hardback or paperback
  
• age 8 and up
  
• combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)
  

 

[Beth in SW WA]

Well, I hope Susan would offer a secular alternative. There is no way that this would work for us, though we are comfortable with many Christian texts, and are ourselves Christian.

 

I really don't mean to be offensive, so I hope that this does not come across that way. I'm just not convinced that SOC would have a broad appeal.

 

I agree. It had many errors and was not up to snuff, imho. It would not work for old earth creationists, like us.

[Beth in SW WA]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:

 

 

 

• clear, concise presentation

• readily available

• budget-friendly

• internet extensions

• hardback or paperback

• age 8 and up

• combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)

 

 

:iagree:

 

We use it also and my dd loves it. She thinks she's net-surfing (when actually its very controlled w/ the specific web pages).

 

I am referring to the edition w/ the Saxon helmet on the front.

 

It is secular, which would appeal to the masses. Folks can add their own Christian twist on history, if so inclined. As Christians, we have no problem using Usborne.

[Stacia]

Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.

 

The biggest downside to these books, imo, is that there are many of them needed to cover one year of history (i.e., Ancient Egypt, Ancient Near East, Ancient Greece, etc...), which makes it a very pricey option.

 

The upside is that hey are great, very in-depth & well-written. They also include primary source quotes & text.

 

At one time, weren't you recommending Van Loon's book too?

 

For an overall encyclopedia, I'll vote for Usborne's Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History.

[WTMCassandra]

Now, this DOES look interesting. I came on here to stump for DK, but while I think it's a good spine, I think it's hard to outline. We like and use Dempsey-Parr alongside the two KFs and the DK, and the DP is great for my younger child (for whom outlining is tougher).

 

But, hmmm, that doesn't stop me from looking at the Oxford one!

[Pongo]

Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.

 

The biggest downside to these books, imo, is that there are many of them needed to cover one year of history (i.e., Ancient Egypt, Ancient Near East, Ancient Greece, etc...), which makes it a very pricey option.

 

 

Actually , they make a Childrens World History Book;) and it's very good.

[WTMCassandra]

Yes, I really like these, and they are great for primary source material, BUT, they are soooo expensive.

[Beth in Central TX]

I agree. It had many errors and was not up to snuff, imho. It would not work for old earth creationists, like us.

 

That's why SWB always gives a couple of options in her recommendations; every homeschool has a different need based on our personal preferences as teachers and parents.

 

I extremely dislike The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History because of its old world secular view of history. In addition, I really don't think that the writing is challenging enough for the upper logic ages (7th & 8th grade). Of course, the biggest draw back for me is all of busyness on the pages which is why I didn't use KF too.

 

ETA: For me, history is the most challenging subject in our homeschool. Luckily, we aren't very history-oriented, so I've been able to plan and organize a decent exposure during the grammar & logic stages, but it is far from perfect.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Beth in Central TX

[Kfamily]

by Hendrik Willem van Loon and I really like this book.

 

 

 

Plaid Dad,from LCC, recommends A Little History of the World by E.H. Gombrich for roughly this age group (for older beginners who are just starting LCC). This also looks like a great book.

 

HTH:001_smile:

[dragons in the flower bed]

My humble vote is for The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History for the following reasons:

 

 

 

• clear, concise presentation

• readily available

• budget-friendly

• internet extensions

• hardback or paperback

• age 8 and up

• combines 4 volumes in 1 (We own and enjoy Ancient World and Medieval World.)

 

 

I would second this, adding that the internet extensions are helpful when assigning research reports to fifth graders and to help kids contrast sources.

[Colleen in NS]

...to tell me what YOU would pick for logic-stage history, given the chance to write TWTM yourself.

 

I can hardly believe this, but once again Kingfisher has let their history encyclopedia go out of print with absolutely no warning. As in: last week it was available, this week it isn't. And, of course, I had picked it once more for the history spine in the logic stage of TWTM. :banghead:

 

I have a couple of alternatives in mind, and three whole days to make the changes in the galleys, which are almost ready to go to the printer. But I thought I'd ask any of you who might be interested to weigh in with favorites.

 

SWB

 

I'd pick SOTW for a spine and outlining practice, and UILEWH for timeline dates and maps. And the usual list of supplemental reading. We are using SOTW for a spine for 5th this year, because I gave up on KF for outlining (SOTW/lib. books/World Book articles for outlining this year). We just use KF for dates and maps and extra reading, but I'd use the Usborne one if I didn't have KF.

 

However, whatever you decide, I am sure I will be having a look at it when the new WTM comes out! :) Hang in there.

[Kanga]

Well my first suggestion is to have your publishing house purchase the rights to The Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World! ;)

 

I believe the most important aspect in this section of TWTM is not the actual book recommendation, but the outline demonstration. For some parents, myself included, teaching outling is a daunting task. It is more important for the parent to learn how to teach this concept and to understand what expectations to set for the child than it is to have a particular book recommened to use for outlining. Would it be possible to take excerts from several different books and then demonstrate how they should be outlined? I would even forgive the use of an out-of-print book if more tips were included on remediation.:) I appreciate the schedule suggestions, especially ideas on how much to do per week, and the information on how to incorporate the use of the notebook in the student's studies. However as in outlining, I feel that the actual book recommendation takes a back seat to the "how to" section of this chapter.

 

-Ann

 

For the record, I am partial to Oxford.

[Haiku]

I am using the Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History as a supplement to SOTW and I don't think it would be suitable for logic-stage history at all. It is very interesting, and the web links are outstanding, but I think its usefulness for outlining is very, very poor. It is designed to give "blurbs" of information, not narrative, flowing text.

 

My first vote is for the Oxford Children's History of the World. My second vote is for the DK Definitive Visual Guide, although I think it would be a bit much for a 5th grader, and maybe a sixth grader, given that some kids start 5th grade at 10 years old.

 

Tara

[Renee in NC]

My first vote is for the Oxford Children's History of the World.

 

I like the way this looks, but I hate that it is only available new in softcover.

[Haiku]

Well my first suggestion is to have your publishing house purchase the rights to The Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World! ;)

 

 

 

I second this motion.

 

Tara

[Crimson Wife]

I like the way this looks, but I hate that it is only available new in softcover.

 

:iagree:

 

It's also a little thin for the time frame it covers. 192 pp vs. 491 for the KHE.

 

Is anybody familiar with the National Geographic books Concise History of the World: An Illustrated Timeline and the Almanac of World History? They also look interesting...

[Nan in Mass]

I liked the old Kingfisher enough that we went to ebay and bought two more, at what I thought at the time was a large amount of money. Since then, I've been buying high school and college textbooks, and the $80 or so that we paid for each enormous thick book chock full of pictures that lasts for 4 years and then will be used as a reference for a lifetime just doesn't seem like that big a deal any more. I'm really glad we did it. I was even glad at the time. One of my children used the copy my sister had given me for Christmas, and when the next child hit logic stage, the older one refused to give it up, even though he was now in high school and (happily) using Spielvogel's Western Civ. He said he was going to take it to college with him. Hmmm... So we ordered another one for me, and one for the youngest. I can tell that we are going to have the same problem with Spielvogel.

 

I have both the first and second editions of TWTM, but I've continued to use the logic stage history list from the first edition. The recommendations in it were so very, very good, that I just continued to search alibris.com and order things used. Some of our favourites have been The History of Everyday Things series, Pharoah's of Ancient Egypt, Story of the World, the Connolly books, We Had Everything but Money, Stars and Swastikas (my older one said it was one of the best books he had ever read because it explained both sides of the war), The Boy's War, Lincoln: A Photobiography, the Macauley books, The Day Pearl Harbor Was Bombed, and the Time Life children's book of photos of the 20th cent. (can't remember the title) and bio of Hitler (also can't remember the title). I gave my children the Early Times books to read, and they enjoyed them and seem to have remembered the material fairly well, but they weren't favourites. One of mine read the Hakim books and didn't mind them, but the other one gagged. Spielvogel has been a hit, and I expect the younger one will also like it. We started with Spielvogel's Odyssey, since history isn't really "our thing" and I was looking for a less time-consuming option, but my son said that he already knew it all from Kingfisher, so we switched to Western Civ. That is at exactly the right level to follow Kingfisher and all the logic reading. We only outlined Kingfisher and read the rest and wrote a report occasionally, but despite our bad memories, they seem to have learned lots of history.

 

So, the reason I told you all that is that I'm hoping you can put any of our favourites that are out of print in the new version anyway, and just put in a note saying that they are out of print but might be worth getting used. I remember you doing that in a few cases in the past. I'd just hate to see people miss these. They made history come alive for my children, especially when put together with the literature books. I suspect that all their history reading is a good part of the reason they are reading great books so happily now. We like our history heavily illustrated, and your selections have been great for us, meaty but appropriate age-wise. They've given my children an enthusiasm for history that there is no way I could have provided on my own.

 

-Nan

[inashoe]

I think she is just a tad busy to add "write Logic stage history Text" to her to-do list.

 

I am sure SWB knows I was tongue in cheek.:001_smile:

 

I can understand her frustration with KF going OOP, but there is a blessing in all this. A lot of us don't find KF ideal for outlining, and she did say she was going to recommend it again in the next edition of WTM. I was quite disappointed to read that - I had been planning on getting the next WTM just to find out what the *NEW* recommendations are for Logic stage history.

 

I have been looking at the Oxford Children's as recommended on this thread at Amazon. The text is certainly less busy and punctuated than KF. It does have flowing paragraphs, but seems a bit young for the average 5th grader, not to mention 6 to 8th graders.

[Carol in Cal.]

Going back through SOTW, using higher level supplemental reading, and interspersing it with All American History as well as Critical Thinking in US History once you get to the relevant time periods. AAH is not nearly as well written as SOTW, but it does have a fairly sophisticated vocabulary and has short answer and fill in the blanks assignments that send the student back to the text, kind of like teaching notetaking. Outlining could be done from either AAH or SOTW. AAH is hard for a 5 grader, IMO, but very reasonable for a 7th or 8th grader.

 

I would also suggest going through the first two books of SOTW more quickly than in two years. I would think that students would want to finish them in 1 1/2 years because of the increased time commitment in the upper grades with the US history additions.

[Guest]

Hmm...how about suggesting the use of SOTW for a 2nd round? That combined with the new WWE for logic gives the outlining practice as needed. The one problem I see with it would be that the student pages would seem 'young' for logic age.

 

Sub in a year of US (A History of US, maybe?)/UK history for one of the logic years? Guess I actually don't have any good ideas. I am sorry.

 

A new spine...how about The Oxford Encyclopedia series? I haven't seen them but you had suggested the Ancient World one as a supplemental read for logic age. I, too, need a secular option.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Guest

[Spy Car]

Should we assume there will be a new version of Kingfisher coming out to replace the last, and that they just happen to share a revision cycle with WTM?

 

Or are they "dropping" their history encyclopedia altogether?

 

Bill

[WTMCassandra]

Now this is a great idea, but it might be really big $$$$$$ for a small publishing house to come up with.

[Guest]

If Kingfisher isn't dropping, just revising. Someone call and suggest they go back to the 1993 format!

[Nan in Mass]

I third it.

[Guest]

Would SWB be willing to share her 3 alternatives with us for feedback?

[Spy Car]

How about the H.E. Marshall books? or M.B. Synge?

We have Streams but we'll be reading the Marshall and Synge books the most as a spine.

 

Have you pre-read H.E. Marshall's "This Country of Ours"?

 

I found her freely expressed bigotry eliminated this work from consideration for use in our home.

 

Bill

[Chris in VA]

Christine Miller's redos are pretty good. I don't know if they have enough facts and enough content, tho. Perhaps two spines--Miller's for the story aspect and something encyclopedic like Dk's history for the factual part?

 

Could you--gasp--perhaps use a text book of some sort?

 

Maybe MOH 1 and 2 for an option? If you could do a religious option and a secular, it might work better.

 

I, for one, do not want to go thru SOTW again, only because I want more connections and logic stage work starting in 5th grade.

 

Perhaps you could recommend DK's 20th Century book--or the CD-Rom--I think the book is also OOP--for the last part of 8th grade as a good supplement. We used it in Sonlight 300, and while I wouldn't want it for the only spine, it was fairly interesting.

[Heather in Neverland]

I can only say what we are using for this stage:

 

5th grade: Famous Men of Greece, Rome

6th grade: Famous Men of Middle Ages, Renaissance, Modern Times

7th and 8th grade: A History of US (Hakim)

 

We use the study guides that go along with each of these as well.

[Karenciavo]

Have you pre-read H.E. Marshall's "This Country of Ours"?

 

I found her freely expressed bigotry eliminated this work from consideration for use in our home.

 

Bill

 

She uses terms common in the day the book was written, she does not use them as hateful monikers.

[nmoira]

 

Oxford University Press has "The World in Ancient Times" series. Of course, that only covers one year of logic stage. There are a few similar books they have for other time periods in history.

For those balking at the price, keep an eye out. We picked up this and the corresponding medieval series in March for less than $60 each, new from Amazon.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I would not choose Streams of Civ, sorry. I can't abide it.

 

There are a few series out, such as by Scholastic, but I don't know that any of them are widely available or affordable. Nor do any of them cover all the time periods.

 

Usborne's History of the Ancient World is a little more in-depth than their general world history, but do they have one of these for every time period? Is there a bind up of all time periods? That might work, if so....

 

The DK encyclopedia is so busy! Unless newer editions of it have changed, I don't know about using it at all, especially with younger children.

[nmoira]

 

We're going to use the updated Story of Mankind... by Hendrik Willem van Loon and I really like this book.

We're probably going to use this as a narrative as well. I've been flirting with DK's History: A Definitive Visual Guide as our logic spine, coupled with DK's Timelines of World History. They are both written for adults, but my oldest is advanced enough I think it would be usable.

[Spy Car]

She uses terms common in the day the book was written, she does not use them as hateful monikers.

 

H.E. Marshall's writings certainly reflects some of the worst aspects of an earlier era, but it extends well beyond "hateful monikers" and includes bigotry toward a number of ethnic and religious groups. I find her writing extremely offensive and they are not materials I consider to be appropriate for teaching children in the 21st Century.

 

Bill

[Melissa in Australia]

Hmm...how about suggesting the use of SOTW for a 2nd round? That combined with the new WWE for logic gives the outlining practice as needed. The one problem I see with it would be that the student pages would seem 'young' for logic age.

 

.

 

We use SOTW for the logic stage. we also use a few other history encyclopedias, as extra to beef it up:

Kingfisher,

Usborne book of world history,

Family Encyclopedia of History - Readers Digest not chronological at all, but has more information than kingfisher or usborne

I hate DK history of the world -not enough information at all.

Longman history of the world, ( more of a reference book)

[Karenciavo]

While I don't want my children to refer to Native Americans as "savages" (among other terms she *sometimes* used), I do not necessarily consider it bigotry that someone 100 years ago did. It may very be that 100 years hence some of the terms we use in the name of political-correctness will be considered bigoted. I would hope my logic stage child could understand that as well.

 

Sorry for the hijack SWB.