More than 100 Covid cases (so far) in 8 States traced to Sturgis Rally...who knew?

[Catwoman]

18 minutes ago, EmseB said:

What defines "caring" in terms of people dying of specific causes? Is it caring to be enraged at everyone who disagrees and calling them idiots with your definition of caring? If a 98yo dies of literal loneliness because we all care about people dying of the virus, then we care enough? If a walmart worker gets my groceries instead of me do I care enough? If everyone goes out of business except Amazon and big boxes, do we care enough? 

It's not just the disagreement. It's the idea that anyone who disagrees must carelessly want people to die that is disgusting. I don't assume that people who disagree with me don't care about small businesses or the economy, I think that they think of it differently than I do and perhaps have a different risk assessment or are more privileged to be able to avoid economic activity person-to-person. But there are posters here who seemed otherwise kind and understanding who now have a very thinly veiled (or not veiled at all) rage towards anyone who disagrees as if that person might want to murder their fellow man.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but all we are asking is that people show a little respect for human life by wearing masks and social distancing. This isn’t complicated.

And if people won’t even do a few small, simple things to help prevent the spread of a potentially deadly virus in the middle of a worldwide pandemic, well... I’m going to think they are idiots. And that’s putting it mildly. 

[katilac]

17 minutes ago, EmseB said:

What defines "caring" in terms of people dying of specific causes? Is it caring to be enraged at everyone who disagrees and calling them idiots with your definition of caring? If a 98yo dies of literal loneliness because we all care about people dying of the virus, then we care enough? If a walmart worker gets my groceries instead of me do I care enough? If everyone goes out of business except Amazon and big boxes, do we care enough? 

It's not just the disagreement. It's the idea that anyone who disagrees must carelessly want people to die that is disgusting. I don't assume that people who disagree with me don't care about small businesses or the economy, I think that they think of it differently than I do and perhaps have a different risk assessment or are more privileged to be able to avoid economic activity person-to-person. But there are posters here who seemed otherwise kind and understanding who now have a very thinly veiled (or not veiled at all) rage towards anyone who disagrees as if that person might want to murder their fellow man.

I know that I personally have to fight hard against giving in to transference - I listen to 7 people who genuinely are dismissive and come across as uncaring, and I have to make sure that I don't transfer my reaction to those 7 people to persons 8, 9, and 10 without reason. 

And sometimes we use a bit of shorthand that can be hard to interpret - like I will say that I'm on the cautious side, and I mean that we follow mask recommendations diligently, don't go to parties or even funerals, and have vastly reduced our time out of the house. But someone else might not consider me cautious, because I do go into the grocery store in between pickups, and I probably go into one unnecessary store about every two weeks. 

Add in the extra stress most of us are under, and . . . yeah, rational discourse is hard. 

I'm trying, though 😵

3 hours ago, Lb20inblue said:

All I can do reading this is go "huh"....The tracked numbers from Stugis are low but because we only know of the numbers that have been traced back to Sturgis.  It seems strange that following public health safety protocols is now political.  This pandemic is bad; Add the pandemic to natural disasters and it's been a assault on our country.  I think it's concerning that we, as a nation, can't agree that fact.  It's past time for recrimination and time for reconciliation.  People are contracting Covid this country and its up to all of us decide whether we are helping the nation decrease the number or not.

It might help if people would stop calling those who make different decisions from theirs idiots like a previous poster declared every single person who attended sturgis.  That person has plentiful company all over this board.  It really isn’t a discussion when you start calling people derogatory names.  This board is one small example of why this whole situation is political.  It is political because our governors make it so by not following their own rules and because the media makes it so by belittling people’s behavior and then going out and doing exactly what they told us not to do.  The mayor of Chicago can get a haircut in a pandemic when no one else can because she’s on TV a lot, my governor threatens retaliation for protests against her stay at home order but marches in protests for other causes because that isn’t a risk or her husband tries to use his position to get his boat up north in the water for Memorial Day when his wife told people not to go.  The hypocrisy and the name calling really don’t inspire people to follow what you say, combine that with shutting down their livelihood it does make it “political” because politics is all about how government affects the lives of the people...and the lives of the people are being affected.

[Catwoman]

37 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

It might help if people would stop calling those who make different decisions from theirs idiots like a previous poster declared every single person who attended sturgis.  That person has plentiful company all over this board.  It really isn’t a discussion when you start calling people derogatory names.  This board is one small example of why this whole situation is political.  It is political because our governors make it so by not following their own rules and because the media makes it so by belittling people’s behavior and then going out and doing exactly what they told us not to do.  The mayor of Chicago can get a haircut in a pandemic when no one else can because she’s on TV a lot, my governor threatens retaliation for protests against her stay at home order but marches in protests for other causes because that isn’t a risk or her husband tries to use his position to get his boat up north in the water for Memorial Day when his wife told people not to go.  The hypocrisy and the name calling really don’t inspire people to follow what you say, combine that with shutting down their livelihood it does make it “political” because politics is all about how government affects the lives of the people...and the lives of the people are being affected.

 

While you are calling everyone out for name-calling and belittling others, I hope you will add the leader of our country to your list, because he does exactly that every day. 😉 

(I wasn’t going to make a political comment, but you already went there, so I figured I might as well respond. I fully expect the moderators to delete both of our posts for violating forum rules.)

Edited August 28, 2020 by Catwoman

[Spy Car]

35 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

My point is that it's not millions of people who are outside the norm.  It's every American.  With some variation, the truth is that it's human nature to care less about deaths and issues that don't affect you (general you) directly than to care about the deaths and illnesses and issues that are very close to home.

That's not my nature.

Bill

[Catwoman]

36 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

My point is that it's not millions of people who are outside the norm.  It's every American.  With some variation, the truth is that it's human nature to care less about deaths and issues that don't affect you (general you) directly than to care about the deaths and illnesses and issues that are very close to home.

 

 

 

But how can people NOT care about 182,000 dead Americans??? We shouldn’t need to know them personally to feel sad that they died or to empathize with the pain their families are experiencing.

And how can we NOT feel for the people who are, right at this moment, fighting for their lives, alone in a hospital with no family members by their side to comfort them? And how can we NOT empathize with the family members who are sitting at home feeling terrified every time the phone rings because it might be bad news about their loved one who is in the ICU and isn’t allowed visitors?

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Consider it an expression of frustration with the vast majority of people in my community, who, judging by their actions, do not seem to care in the least. 

 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

In other words, millions of Americans really don't care about things that affect other people, as long as they themselves aren't inconvenienced. Even when other people are dying.

Which exactly is my point.

 

It’s so heartbreaking to see that kind of attitude and to realize that it’s so prevalent.

 I always thought people were better than that. 😢

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Approximately 7k people died in the last 24 hours of things not Covid.  They died of things like heart attacks.  Strokes.  Liver cancer.  Suicide.  Some kids drowned.  Some other kids died due to abuse.  Some poeple were shot in violent crimes.  

Do you know any of their names?  Do you know how many of them died alone with no family members?  Do you know how many sat at home waiting for the phone to ring because of reasons not covid?

It's not that people don't care about 182k americans dead.  It's that when you consider that on average, 1 million 700 thousand people have died of things not covid to date....182k is a small number, relatively speaking.  

 

Wow. Heartless. 

[Frances]

7 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

No, I'm just a free-thinker who looks at facts, and also notes the high level of illogical inconsistency and hypocrisy in this pandemic (on this board, and also in society/media/government.)

There is an illness caused by SARS-Cov-2, but the rate of infection is very low, the rate of hospitalization of those low number of people infected is low, and the death rate of the low number of people hospitalized is low.  For some people infected, however, it's devestating.

I see people on here dismissing testing data and statistics for the Sturgis  gathering and then spinning non-supported evidence and speculation of it being a dire situation. I see the media continue to hype the situation. I pointed out a couple of inconsistencies in all of the talk about it, that's all. Yes, this is all politicized, unfortunately, but you are all part of it just as much as anyone.

FYI, I have worn a mask in public since the second week of March. I still wipe down my groceries, and I don't eat-in at restaurants (only outside), etc., so your judgement of me is off. 

 

 

I’m not sure I would agree that more 200,000 excess deaths in the US since March is low. Why are you only concerned about the death rate of hospitalized people? And one of the reasons the infection rate is not higher is that most people aren’t doing things like traveling to attend a large motorcycle rally with people from all over the country.

And surely you don’t think the testing data and statistics for Sturgis are remotely complete?

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Cat, it's not heartless....it's numbers.  

 

I assume you know my grandfather died recently.  It wasn't covid.  Other than expressing condolences to ME, for my loss...I fully recognize that *NO ONE ELSE HERE* cared.  No one *actually* cares that a 92 yr old man on the south side of Chicago took his last breaths a few weeks ago because of old age (complications from a simple medical procedure/previously undiagnosed cancer.)  No one here cared anything beyond what I told them.  And they cared only because they know me....online....through this platform.  Beyond that which you (general you) know......no one cares.   

That's not heartless.....that's human nature.  

 

I didn’t know about your grandfather. I’m so sorry! Were you able to have a funeral? 

I don’t agree with the “numbers” aspect of your post, but I’m not going to argue about it. I would be a petty jerk if I did that after you told me about your grandfather. 

It was probably a shock when he passed away. 😪 I remember when my grandmother died at 97 and people said that we must have expected it... but we didn’t expect it, because she had lived so long and had never really been sick, so it never seemed real that she might actually die. 

Again, I’m really sorry.

[Catwoman]

I’m just spinning off on the idea that people don’t really care when someone dies unless they actually know that person...

I’ve been thinking about that statement and I don’t think it’s true, but I wanted to find out with the rest of you guys thought about it.

 Just an example… I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this, but Anderson Cooper does this thing where he profiles a person who has died of the virus, and he talks about their life and he talks to their family members. Well, by the time he’s about halfway through with his story, Anderson’s crying, I’m crying, and I always thought most other viewers were probably reaching for the tissues, too... but after reading happysmileylady’s posts above, now I’m not so sure. 

I find it so painful and heartwrenching to read the new death tolls every day because I can’t stop thinking about how all of those poor families are feeling. Am I some kind of weird, overly-emotional anomaly?

[Moonhawk]

So, every loss of life is sad. We can't literally learn every name, date and cause as a society. It's unfortunate, but most of us understand that just because we do not know those details that the passing of a person leaves a hole in the lives of many. But when one in particular is brought up, yes, I do actually care about it. I don't just say the words, "sorry for your loss" or put a sad emoji response, I actually feel that and think about it. (Happysmileylady, I really did care, and I'm still so sorry for your loss {{{{}}}}  )

There are currently 182K deaths this year so far that would not have happened if Covid hadn't hit us. Or, if you want to split hairs and say not all of them were going to live anyway, we can say ~150k people who wouldn't have died without Covid being added as a complication to their conditions. (Conversely, you can say that we have 200k+ excess deaths so far this year, so the 182k seems fair.)

Many of these deaths would normally be considered preventable. The reason we show care more about these deaths is that they were preventable by society at least to a degree. I cannot help the people in my area who have liver disease, heart disease, and cancer in a real way, and my actions will not contribute to their disease's progress (unless maybe I blow smoke at a person with lung cancer, I don't know).

But I can help prevent the deaths of more people from C19 by just doing simple things like masks and staying farther away from them. Now, am I *literally* saving their life? Not unless I'm infected, no, and not everyone who gets it will die, that's true. But by doing what I can and participating in our society in a way that promotes responsibility for ensuring there is no *needless* spread, I am helping ensure there are no *needless* deaths. Similar to how no one soldier wins a war, but each is needed. 

I would say that we have had many, many *needless* deaths. I say this based on our death rate (USA) compared to other areas and populations. We can argue how many people "would have died anyway", even if we did every precaution, but that doesn't change the fact that so many have died than needed to. Some estimates say that 60% of our deaths could have been avoided. I would say 1 needless death is too much, but I think everyone can agree that 1,000 needless deaths seems a bit much, yes? 10,000? 100,000? Needlessly. 

This is what many of us see and actively want to prevent more of. It isn't enough to say "Every death is sad but we can't do anything about every death." It misses the point that, ye, we COULD HAVE done something to prevent many of these deaths. And there are still potential deaths that we can actively prevent. 

--

Re: Sturgis and protests and colleges, again my concern is about *needless* spread (this actually feels like an afterthought now but I'm trying to stay on-topic): 

We do not know the full impact of Sturgis because it is not localized and easily traced, and many cases will probably be missed. We will see the effects of colleges much more easily because they are localize and much more easily traced, and are actively promoting testing.

I think earlier information dissuaded any large gatherings because we did not have any clue on what's going on; now our clues are somewhat better and we know that outdoors seems to be much better option. So, hopefully large gatherings, if they happen, stay outside. Protests (to my mind) "lucked out" that they were outside, I was definitely uneasy about them at the time before the outdoor understanding was known; it was also beneficial that many protestors have been masking and socially distanced. I sympathized with the motives but was concerned about the later fallout, I am glad that I I was incorrect, and I think we have learned a lot about how we can have more social gatherings based off these trial runs.

Colleges are actively promoting different steps to try and contain the spread while still functioning on some level (some colleges better than others, unfortunately). I don't know how I feel about colleges, actually, but at least there is some mitigation efforts from the admin point of view. I don't think we can expect the actual students to be the best civil stewards of our collective health. I mean, we could, but we'd probably be disappointed by a big portion of them, so I think the efforts of the colleges are really necessary. 

Sturgis did not promote an atmosphere of containing or avoiding needless spread, and had higher-risk events/behaviors (bars, etc) that did not try to mitigate spread either to other attendees or communities. So, that is unfortunate. I'm not going to pretend that Sturgis will single-handedly kill thousands, but the behavioral affects will also ripple out from this and more people will be more bold about not following the guidelines and use Sturgis as an example of why it is okay (even though incomplete data). So, that is the most concerning part of the Sturgis situation to me. Plus, yes, 1 person infected is not only one person infected; just looking at the recent outbreak in New Zealand I think has given us a much clearer view of how easily this can spread with only 1 person. To think that Sturgis did not have any real impact on the C-19 numbers does seem a bit far-fetched, but will be debated for years due to, again, incomplete data.

(so sorry for the length. I've actually cut out like half of the original. So, I'm sorry and you're welcome, lol)

[TCB]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

What defines "caring" in terms of people dying of specific causes? Is it caring to be enraged at everyone who disagrees and calling them idiots with your definition of caring? If a 98yo dies of literal loneliness because we all care about people dying of the virus, then we care enough? If a walmart worker gets my groceries instead of me do I care enough? If everyone goes out of business except Amazon and big boxes, do we care enough? 

It's not just the disagreement. It's the idea that anyone who disagrees must carelessly want people to die that is disgusting. I don't assume that people who disagree with me don't care about small businesses or the economy, I think that they think of it differently than I do and perhaps have a different risk assessment or are more privileged to be able to avoid economic activity person-to-person. But there are posters here who seemed otherwise kind and understanding who now have a very thinly veiled (or not veiled at all) rage towards anyone who disagrees as if that person might want to murder their fellow man.

I think part of the problem is the somewhat extreme language used by some people on both sides of the argument. One person gets on here outraged at what someone has said and then uses really emotive extreme language to argue their side. It just perpetuates the whole cycle. 
 

ETA I think people on both so called “sides” seem to be using fairly extreme wording

Edited August 28, 2020 by TCB

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

My point is that it's not millions of people who are outside the norm.  It's every American.  With some variation, the truth is that it's human nature to care less about deaths and issues that don't affect you (general you) directly than to care about the deaths and illnesses and issues that are very close to home.

No, it's not "every American" — thank God.  But this certainly does give me some insight into how so many people justify selfishness as "normal human nature." 

I hope that, once we have a vaccine and better treatments, my life can go "back to normal" in the sense of getting to travel again and visit friends and not need to wear a mask everywhere, But one thing that has changed forever for me is my faith in humanity. Because apparently a whole lot of people have a very different concept of "human nature" than I used to have.

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

The CDC's website today is reporting 5,799,046 cases of COVID-19 in the U.S. with 178, 998 deaths. That is a 3% death rate. Yes, that is low, as I said. 97% of those who tested positive did not die.

Pointing out this fact does not mean that I don't care about those who have lost their lives. Don't be ridiculous and start yelling your outrage at me.

Sturgis infections are not even at the 1% level nearly 2 weeks after the end of the event. A 3% expected death rate of a 0.027% infection rate of those who attended is LOW. Yes, some might not have reported, but not because there's a conspiracy to hide the infections, but probably because 90% of those infected don't need hospitalization! That is another well documented, consistent statistic. 

 

 

So if you consider a 3% death rate acceptable do you think it would also be an acceptable death rate if everyone decided to not follow public health guidelines like the Sturgis attendees and we just let the virus spread unchecked throughout the country? If we all followed some of our leaders and said this is no big deal and just went about our lives as normal, basically treating it like the flu?
 

I don’t think we have any idea what the true rate of spread is from Sturgis. And I think it has little or nothing to do with 90% of infected not being hospitalized. Even in my state, one of the very worst when it comes to testing shortages, we haven’t only been testing those hospitalized for quite awhile. Some can’t get tested, some won’t get tested, some won’t give info to contact tracers, many that do can’t really be traced back to a source, etc. etc. It’s not like many universities where everyone is being tested upon arrival and then periodically throughout the school year. These and others are all reasons for never really knowing the effect of Sturgis.

[Jean in Newcastle]

48 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Approximately 7k people died in the last 24 hours of things not Covid.  They died of things like heart attacks.  Strokes.  Liver cancer.  Suicide.  Some kids drowned.  Some other kids died due to abuse.  Some poeple were shot in violent crimes.  

Do you know any of their names?  Do you know how many of them died alone with no family members?  Do you know how many sat at home waiting for the phone to ring because of reasons not covid?

It's not that people don't care about 182k americans dead.  It's that when you consider that on average, 1 million 700 thousand people have died of things not covid to date....182k is a small number, relatively speaking.  

Heart attacks are not contagious. But we still have PSAs about heart attack symptoms and urge people to eat a heart healthy diet because that is part of public health. 
 

Strokes are not contagious. But we have PSAs on stroke symptoms. “Time lost is brain lost”. 

Suicides are not (strictly in the disease sense) contagious. But we still fund suicide hotlines and urge people to seek mental health help because that is part of public health. 

Liver cancer is not contagious. Not any PSAs that I know of. But if there were general things to look or prevention tips for it I bet we would hear about it. 
 

There are campaigns about water safety every summer here. And we fund lifeguards. (Not contagious btw)
 

We screen for child abuse and have mandated reporters. (Another example of something that isn’t a contagious disease). 
 

Gun violence is not a contagious disease but we still have lots of gun control legislation and some people want more. 
 

COVID19 is a contagious disease.  We simply want it treated as such. 

[Lb20inblue]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Around 3,000 people died on 9/11, and we launched a multi-year, trillion-dollar war that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in a country that had nothing to do with the attacks, and two decades later we're still taking off our shoes and getting body-scanned before we can get on a plane.

More than 180,000 Americans have died of Covid in the last 6 months, and millions of Americans shrug and say "Meh, 180,000 isn't that bad" and complain that wearing a 6" piece of cloth is too much trouble. 

Twilight zone, indeed. 😥

 

I don't understand it.  It's as if there is a whole segment of this country that have never had to follow rules.  It's like rules are for others and I can always choose not to follow them.   I just don't get it. 

[Lb20inblue]

2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

It might help if people would stop calling those who make different decisions from theirs idiots like a previous poster declared every single person who attended sturgis.  That person has plentiful company all over this board.  It really isn’t a discussion when you start calling people derogatory names.  This board is one small example of why this whole situation is political.  It is political because our governors make it so by not following their own rules and because the media makes it so by belittling people’s behavior and then going out and doing exactly what they told us not to do.  The mayor of Chicago can get a haircut in a pandemic when no one else can because she’s on TV a lot, my governor threatens retaliation for protests against her stay at home order but marches in protests for other causes because that isn’t a risk or her husband tries to use his position to get his boat up north in the water for Memorial Day when his wife told people not to go.  The hypocrisy and the name calling really don’t inspire people to follow what you say, combine that with shutting down their livelihood it does make it “political” because politics is all about how government affects the lives of the people...and the lives of the people are being affected.

 

I am going to agree that leadership matters and it starts from the top.  At every level, people in positions of power need to step up and do what is right for the american people.   Since we have a lack of leadership, we are missing the unifying mission.  I remember around 9/11, for a brief moment, there was unity that we are all in this together.  I mean the Patriots won the Superbowl and even the patriots haters were quiet for the moment.  We have not had that yet and we have lost so many lives due to Covid.  Its heart breaking.  We have to rise above and try to appeal to our best selves, no matter what.  This is the mindset of many immigrants in this country and I think in this Covid crisis, we should all adopt it.  

[katilac]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I also want to add that one more thing I really want to know is what the "end game" is.  I want to know how much risk mitigation is enough and when.  When have we mitigated the risk enough to drop all the changes.  

We'd all love to know that, but it's not a knowable thing at the moment. 

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, EmseB said:

What defines "caring" in terms of people dying of specific causes? 

This:

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

all we are asking is that people show a little respect for human life by wearing masks and social distancing. This isn’t complicated.

As Cat said, truly not complicated. 

[MercyA]

@happysmileylady, I'm really sorry about your grandpa. I still miss mine. He was from Chicago, too. ❤️

Edited August 28, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I find it so painful and heartwrenching to read the new death tolls every day because I can’t stop thinking about how all of those poor families are feeling. Am I some kind of weird, overly-emotional anomaly?

I'll be honest and say I'm not by nature an empathetic person. My brain doesn't work that way. I don't tend to get emotional over tragedies, whether close to home or far away. I admire people like you who have a soft heart.

Nevertheless, I believe we show we care by what we DO, regardless of how we feel. We can do the right thing whether we feel emotional about it or not. And the right thing to do right now is wear a mask and social distance. I don't understand why that seems to be so hard for people.

[Joker]

I’m gonna be honest and say some are angry because of what they see being taken away. I get that it is relative to geography but that doesn’t make it any easier to swallow. Everyone is commenting based on their specific situation but that means nothing to me. My ds had something horrific happen and can’t get in to see anyone. He’s had one phone conversation and will have another next week for a whopping 30 minutes. They admit he has acute stress disorder and none of us want him to end up with PTSD but we still have these stupid rules because of Covid. This virus is the least of my freaking worries at the moment. There are worse things happening every day to some. Kudos to you if you are lucky enough to avoid it. I’m just so flipping done. All common sense has been lost with this virus and people are suffering in more ways than you are all are aware. I’m probably done here for a while. 

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Joker said:

I’m gonna be honest and say some are angry because of what they see being taken away. I get that it is relative to geography but that doesn’t make it any easier to swallow. Everyone is commenting based on their specific situation but that means nothing to me. My ds had something horrific happen and can’t get in to see anyone. He’s had one phone conversation and will have another next week for a whopping 30 minutes. They admit he has acute stress disorder and none of us want him to end up with PTSD but we still have these stupid rules because of Covid. This virus is the least of my freaking worries at the moment. There are worse things happening every day to some. Kudos to you if you are lucky enough to avoid it. I’m just so flipping done. All common sense has been lost with this virus and people are suffering in more ways than you are all are aware. I’m probably done here for a while. 

 

Joker, I’m so sorry about your ds! 😢

This sounds horrible— I hope you can find a way to get your son the help he needs! 

[Susan in TX]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Around 3,000 people died on 9/11, and we launched a multi-year, trillion-dollar war that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in a country that had nothing to do with the attacks, and two decades later we're still taking off our shoes and getting body-scanned before we can get on a plane.

More than 180,000 Americans have died of Covid in the last 6 months, and millions of Americans shrug and say "Meh, 180,000 isn't that bad" and complain that wearing a 6" piece of cloth is too much trouble. 

Twilight zone, indeed. 😥

 

 I think that the reason for the different reaction to 9/11 is that we accept death that comes by natural causes, but we demand justice or revenge for murder.

Susan in TX

[Melissa in Australia]

8 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

My point is that it's not millions of people who are outside the norm.  It's every American.  With some variation, the truth is that it's human nature to care less about deaths and issues that don't affect you (general you) directly than to care about the deaths and illnesses and issues that are very close to home.

 

 

Human nature or American nature?

 I can think of many countries that have the majority of their population that  care deeply about deaths and issues that don't affect them as individuals 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Human nature or American nature?

 I can think of many countries that have the majority of their population that  care deeply about deaths and issues that don't affect them as individuals 

 

I'd call it human nature vs inhuman nature.

 

Bill

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, MercyA said:

I am just astounded that there are still people who think Covid's numbers and risk level are low. It is now the third-leading cause of death in the United States, "ahead of accidents, injuries, lung disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's, and many, many other causes." https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200818/covid-the-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us

How many people have to die before people start caring? Most people in my area only mask and distance when they are forced by law to do so, and sometimes not even then. 

I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone, seriously.

I have to wonder if people would care more if 180,000 toddlers were dead. Elderly people's and at-risk people's lives are worth just as much. And if you (general you) don't think so, don't call yourself pro-life. 

Amen. 

This is one reason I have greatly appreciated it on the (very rare) occasion news personnel or government officials talk about someone, a person, who died from COVID. When they say, for instance, “Bob Somebody was an elder at his church for thirty years. He had six children and fourteen grandchildren. He volunteered every Saturday at Feed My Sheep. He will be greatly missed.”

I’m sure due to privacy laws, they can’t usually do this, but I wish every night there could be pictures on TV of the people who died that day. I guarantee you, it would “come home” for many more millions of Americans if we could see the impact in human terms. Numbers are extremely dehumanizing.  Pictures are very humanizing. We already see this when there is a mass shooting or something similar. Seeing photos of the victims makes the public demand justice. 

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Amen. 

This is one reason I have greatly appreciated it on the (very rare) occasion news personnel or government officials talk about someone, a person, who died from COVID. When they say, for instance, “Bob Somebody was an elder at his church for thirty years. He had six children and fourteen grandchildren. He volunteered every Saturday at Feed My Sheep. He will be greatly missed.”

I’m sure due to privacy laws, they can’t usually do this, but I wish every night there could be pictures on TV of the people who died that day. I guarantee you, it would “come home” for many more millions of Americans if we could see the impact in human terms. Numbers are extremely dehumanizing.  Pictures are very humanizing. We already see this when there is a mass shooting or something similar. Seeing photos of the victims makes the public demand justice. 

Washington Post has a website dedicated to memorials: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/coronavirus-dead-victims-stories/?arc404=true

My brother highlights two people on his FB feed every day. I'll have to ask him where he is drawing his memorials from. I think it is from this site as I recognize some of them, but I'll check with him if there is another site. 

[EmseB]

10 hours ago, MercyA said:

This:

As Cat said, truly not complicated. 

I do that (masking and distancing), so discussion of numbers, infection rates, etc., shouldn't be considered heartless, cruel, angering or whatever else has been thrown around in this thread.

Edited August 28, 2020 by EmseB

[TCB]

I follow a FB page that charts R0 in different states and when I looked this morning SD was going up a fair amount and ND up also but slightly less. Don’t know if it’s connected of course.

[Matryoshka]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m sure due to privacy laws, they can’t usually do this, but I wish every night there could be pictures on TV of the people who died that day. I guarantee you, it would “come home” for many more millions of Americans if we could see the impact in human terms. Numbers are extremely dehumanizing.  Pictures are very humanizing. We already see this when there is a mass shooting or something similar. Seeing photos of the victims makes the public demand justice. 

I haven't been watching lately, so I don't know if they are still doing this, but CBS This Morning was having a weekly segment (on Fridays) where they did exactly this, with pictures and bio, of 10 or more people each week - obviously they had to get family permission.  It really humanizes the deaths to do this.  You're right that this should be done more.

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, TCB said:

I follow a FB page that charts R0 in different states and when I looked this morning SD was going up a fair amount and ND up also but slightly less. Don’t know if it’s connected of course.

This made me think to check rt.live - SD currently has the highest Rt in the nation - by far - at 1.27 (and rising!).  ND is at 1.12 (about the same as NC) but seems to be holding steady.

[Moonhawk]

15 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

Me too but they’re pretty sure I’m a total asshole too so....?

Well, I certainly don't think you're an asshole. Though I can't get used to your name change and the disconnect between name and pic gets me every time. But that's really the biggest problem I've got with you right now, which is another way of saying I have no problem with you at all. 🙂

I think that sometimes it's perceived that advocating for "we should be doing less" or perhaps "we should mandate less" can come across as saying we are doing too much (and I do think there are people here who think that. I have no idea what your personal view is, I can't keep people+opinion straight between threads). When there has been so much needless death already, and we are finding out more and more about possible long term effects from having C-19, it seems foolhardy to me to be advocating for less action and less concern. Even if you can't get behind *more* action, I have been troubled by people saying we are doing *too much* already.

The idea of "we are already suffering so much anyway, and that won't change, so let's open up so at least businesses stay open" completely skips over the facts it will change in that the suffering (ie sickness and death) will get worse, and the business positive will be short lived, followed by and even longer downturn (at least, it is a strong hypothesis that seems to be ignored at times in favor for what I consider a greener grass view of "returning to normal"). I'm leaving out the sentimental parts about the whole human life thing. 

To the argument about mandates in particular and government overreach, I can see where the argument lies even if I disagree with it. I no longer trust my fellow citizens to act with regard to their fellow man. I no longer trust my fellow citizens to act with anything other than selfish motives. In the case of public health, the number of people who will act selfishly is too high. 

Now, if the argument is that our numbers aren't actually that high and that the number of deaths was unavoidable or that it is an unfortunate but acceptable reality, then I would say we don't have enough common ground to have a reasonable/interesting discussion, that's true. I still wouldn't call a person holding this view an asshole. I just wouldn't understand how we could be looking at the same data (the storied "numbers, infection rates, etc.") and coming to such different conclusions other than our starting values must be so disparate as to be irreconcilable. 

[TCB]

54 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

Me too but they’re pretty sure I’m a total asshole too so....?

And this is a prime example of extreme language. I get that you and EmseB feel like you’re swimming against the tide on some of these threads but then you respond with just as extreme language in the opposite direction. The cycle goes on and on!

 

ETA - not saying you are the only ones who do it, you both just seem surprised by the reactions to what you say.

Edited August 28, 2020 by TCB

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Faces of Covid on Twitter does this. Remember the ban during the first Gulf conflict on photographing military coffins returning? They knew how it affected people.  I’m not so sure it would work today, honestly.We’d have news agencies telling us how the dead person was obese or an alcoholic or had DUI’s. There is a lack of empathy, a lack of decency, a lack of humanity that is spreading across the country. At this point I don’t think these people are capable of learning. 

ETA: Yes, I think (general ) you are an idiot if you try to convince people mask wearing is political, does nothing to help reduce the  spread. Yes, I do think (general)you are a sociopath if 180,000 deaths isn’t all that big of a deal and persist in comparing it to car deaths/flu, etc. Yes, I think you are  lacking empathy when you talk about how ‘NY did it wrong and nobody blamed them but now other cities are getting the blame even tho NY seeded the darn county’. 

^^^ THIS X 10,000. 

[TCB]

2 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

Yep, following all the rules, tested weekly, and people think I'm way overly cautious, but I'm an evil American who cares about no one else simply because I ask questions, see people suffering in other ways because of the shutdowns, and am American.

Oh yeah I forgot you were into that too. 

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

I'm not going to use different language here when all of those things have been said. People have said we just want to kill Grandma, we don't care if elderly people or those with underlying health conditions die (I, and almost everyone in my family, have underlying health conditions), don't care about others because we're American, and are heartless. Sorry, but we're not making things up and using stronger words than have already been used.

It’s not really my place to say anyway so I apologize. I personally have heard some of the things you mentioned said, but I haven’t taken them as applying to those of you who respond as if they are.

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

Me too but they’re pretty sure I’m a total asshole too so....?

I wish there was a proper emoji response to this. Suffice to say I don't think you or anyone else on this thread is an *$#hole. I disagree with you. There is a difference.

That said, I won't apologize for using strong language when it comes to people, you know, actually dying. That used to get me in trouble here re: abortion. Some things are worth getting upset over.

Edited August 28, 2020 by MercyA

[Matryoshka]

22 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

There are 7k people who die every day in the US on average.  How much time do you think it would take?  How much emotion could human beings stand every day.  

That's the average, right?  To see how Covid's affecting the number, there have been 200,000 excess deaths this year.  So that's about 830 extra deaths per day so far this year, just from one largely preventable cause.  Yes, there are going to be excess deaths from Covid.  But it doesn't have to be that many.  Anywhere near that many.  That's the thing.   This isn't an accident or natural catastrophe or normal aging, or anything that's just going to kill us anyway.  It's a communicable disease, and we know how to reduce contagion, and the resulting sickness and death.  Eliminate, no.  Reduce, yes.

[Ottakee]

20 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

That's the average, right?  To see how Covid's affecting the number, there have been 200,000 excess deaths this year.  So that's about 830 extra deaths per day so far this year, just from one largely preventable cause.  Yes, there are going to be excess deaths from Covid.  But it doesn't have to be that many.  Anywhere near that many.  That's the thing.   This isn't an accident or natural catastrophe or normal aging, or anything that's just going to kill us anyway.  It's a communicable disease, and we know how to reduce contagion, and the resulting sickness and death.  Eliminate, no.  Reduce, yes.

Each death is a loss.   I would say though that some of these deaths might have happened anyway over the past 5 months as the person might have passed from another medical issue instead of from (or with) COVID.   

While not nearly as high, we have also had an increase in suicide deaths.  I also know people that have had medical treatments stopped/delayed due to COVID and those medical conditions have a higher death rate than COVID.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

25 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I don't disagree with what you are saying here.  And yes...steps to mitigate are important.

So...what's our goal with mitigation?  What are we hoping to bring numbers down to?  Is it 40k?  Is it 60k?  

 

]

In our state the goal is to bring an estimated 5000 some deaths by December down to around 2600 deaths. This is with mitigation. The projected death rate has already been reduced due to masking, social distancing and limits on group size. 
 

To bring this back to Sturgis there was very little masking, almost no social distancing and absolutely no limit on group size. So every single case from this goes back to irresponsible behavior in the midst of a pandemic. 

[TCB]

I also wonder how much will there is to even find out the count from Sturgis. And since contact tracing seems so poor in many places how would we know even if it was considered desirable to know?

[Frances]

17 hours ago, Susan in TX said:

 

 I think that the reason for the different reaction to 9/11 is that we accept death that comes by natural causes, but we demand justice or revenge for murder.

Susan in TX

I think it’s far easier to unite people in anger in a quest for revenge against a common enemy, especially when most people don’t actually have to do anything or sacrifice anything. It’s far harder it seems to unite people to care about others when everyone needs to do their part.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

There are 7k people who die every day in the US on average.  How much time do you think it would take?  How much emotion could human beings stand every day.  

Oh, woe is us, having to actually hear about people who have lost their lives. 

I'd like profiles of the dead to be played over and over until people in my community are willing to do their part to prevent more deaths. But, no, they want high school football and life as normal. It's illegal to enter stores here without a mask and they do it anyway. They still think this virus is overblown. Maybe they could do with a little more emotion.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I think it’s far easier to unite people in anger in a quest for revenge against a common enemy, especially when most people don’t actually have to do anything or sacrifice anything. It’s far harder it seems to unite people to care about others when everyone needs to do their part.

And in the case of Covid, the problem is compounded by the fact that, instead of trying to unite the country to fight a common enemy, the Powers That Be are doing everything possible to convince the population that their real enemy isn't the virus, it's millions of fellow Americans — and that the most effective, most patriotic response to this "enemy" is to NOT "do their part," or inconvenience themselves in any way. Why bother appealing to the "better angels of our nature" when appealing to our most base and selfish instincts is a much easier sell?

Edited August 29, 2020 by Corraleno

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

In January I would have said, confidently, that he had another 5 years or so.  He was healthy....not just healthy for his age, but on no medications, working again by choice, healthy.

He had a minor issue come up and a common medical procedure to remedy the issue.  He had complications.  Through dealing with the complications they discovered a cancer, in the early stages, but the choice was not to treat.  A perfectly sensible choice for a man who went from healthy, to feeling like his body was failing in a matter of a few months.  Within three (ish) months of the minor issue appearing, he was gone.  

In terms of months....it was a shock.  But once complications developed, it was only a matter of time.  And to be honest.....I had been fearing such a thing for a few years now.  So....kind of an anticipated shock I guess.

 

There is no funeral as grandpa didn't want one and grandma agrees.  Next summer when grandma is ready, there will be a celebration of life BBQ.  

 

I’m glad your grandpa didn’t want a funeral, because your poor grandma must be upset enough, without having the added burden of having wanted to give your grandpa a big funeral and not having been able to do it because of Covid restrictions. 

I think the barbecue is a good idea, and by next summer, hopefully your family will be far enough removed from your grandpa’s passing to enjoy celebrating his life without feeling quite as sad as you would all be feeling if you’d had it right now. 

[Catwoman]

40 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Oh, woe is us, having to actually hear about people who have lost their lives. 

I'd like profiles of the dead to be played over and over until people in my community are willing to do their part to prevent more deaths. But, no, they want high school football and life as normal. It's illegal to enter stores here without a mask and they do it anyway. They still think this virus is overblown. Maybe they could do with a little more emotion.

 

I agree. It disgusts me that so many people are dismissing the virus as being no big deal. I keep asking myself how many people have to die before those people will start taking it seriously! 

(I’m not talking about anyone on this thread — as far as I know, everyone here is doing their part to wear masks and social distance, even if they might not agree with me on the severity of the situation, so I have to respect them for that.)

[Catwoman]

10 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

 

I'm not going to use different language here when all of those things have been said. People have said we just want to kill Grandma, we don't care if elderly people or those with underlying health conditions die (I, and almost everyone in my family, have underlying health conditions), don't care about others because we're American, and are heartless. Sorry, but we're not making things up and using stronger words than have already been used.

 

Not for anything, but I’m pretty sure that most of the people who have disagreed with you are American. 

Some of us Americans are simply very disappointed in, and shocked at, the behavior of many other Americans with regard to this virus. 

[Spy Car]

3 hours ago, MercyA said:

Oh, woe is us, having to actually hear about people who have lost their lives. 

I'd like profiles of the dead to be played over and over until people in my community are willing to do their part to prevent more deaths. But, no, they want high school football and life as normal. It's illegal to enter stores here without a mask and they do it anyway. They still think this virus is overblown. Maybe they could do with a little more emotion.

Heck yeah. We need more emotion, not more callous indifference to human life.

The stories of those who've needlessly died should be told on every form of media. Maybe then the lessons would sink in.

Bill