wuhan - coronavirus

[Ausmumof3]

Arcadia I’m wondering... is the skepticism towards WHO due to their handling of SARS or is it political or something unrelated?

the thing I’m seeing is China is asking Australia for example to lift travel bans.  I feel like the best way to achieve this if things are becoming controlled as reported is to actually let international authorities see what’s happening in an open and unambiguous way.  A lot of the fear is due to doubt and uncertainty.

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m having a hard time remembering what I’ve read from what sources. Wasn’t there talk of the third week of illness being pretty... um, grim as a general rule (in as far as there are any identified rules?)  By my calendar, at least 3 of the 15 US patients are past 3 weeks since confirmed and all but the most recent three in their third week since confirmed.  Minus the three listed as recovered.  It’s got me concerned.

 

I don’t know , but US has no critical cases which is good.

Singapore had cases move off critical/serious list without dying, which is also good.

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I haven’t seen data just anecdotal evidence of stories where things turned worse at that points.

 

That may be from Cytokine Storm phenomenon.

[Pen]

Do any of you know if Japan has nearly 40 cases in critical condition total it’s dealing with (19 from DP, and 19 not from DP?) Or 19 cases total all from the Diamond Princess? 

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Arcadia I’m wondering... is the skepticism towards WHO due to their handling of SARS or is it political or something unrelated?

Political. WHO is being mocked as Wuhan Health Organisation on social media. WHO had a reputation since I was a kid in the 70s.

[Farrar]

I was probably never going on a cruise, but now I'm really really never going on a cruise.

[Ausmumof3]

25 minutes ago, Pen said:

Do any of you know if Japan has nearly 40 cases in critical condition total it’s dealing with (19 from DP, and 19 not from DP?) Or 19 cases total all from the Diamond Princess? 

19 serious from BNO 1 serious from Japan according to BNO

 

[Ausmumof3]

24 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Political. WHO is being mocked as Wuhan Health Organisation on social media. WHO had a reputation since I was a kid in the 70s.

As in they are just saying what WuhAn want?  Sorry I feel dense but trying to understand.  I don’t think people here give them that much credibility either so maybe it wouldn’t make any difference.

[Arcadia]

34 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

As in they are just saying what WuhAn want?  Sorry I feel dense but trying to understand.  I don’t think people here give them that much credibility either so maybe it wouldn’t make any difference.

 

The laymen thinks that WHO can be swayed by political might. That they aren’t as impartial and non-political as they should be.

ETA:

NATO was “translated” as No Action Talk Only so you can understand how cynical we are since childhood.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Arcadia

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

The laymen thinks that WHO can be swayed by political might. That they aren’t as impartial and non-political as they should be.

I think that’s the general opinion here

[mumto2]

   @Ausmumof3My friends who were on the Westerdam are now at home in the UK under self quarantine .  They were not told that a fellow passenger had tested   positive until they arrived at their house this morning.  Last I heard they have received no advice regarding what they should do.  Honestly when I heard about the Holiday Inn I expected to hear they were there.

Edited February 18, 2020 by mumto2

[Ausmumof3]

55 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

   @Ausmumof3My friends who were on the Westerdam are now at home in the UK under self quarantine .  They were not told that a fellow passenger had tested   positive until they arrived at their house this morning.  Last I heard they have received no advice regarding what they should do.  Honestly when I heard about the Holiday Inn I expected to hear they were there.

Seriously!

well hopefully they stay well anyway and can get back to normal life soon

[Ausmumof3]

Sounds like the hospital director has died

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/world-news-with-matt-bevan/11974558

second time this has happened

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Initially Aus were going to charge $1000 for the Wuhan evacuees but that was retracted.  The costs would be massively higher anyway.

Those on the diamond princess were having their costs and cruise costs waived by Diamond Princess but I’m not sure about medical costs in Japan Etc for those sick.  I think they’re going to want to hope that they have good travel insurance.

i think the cruise line could face a class action if there’s any proof they were negligent in taking on passengers.  But then they didn’t act against the advice of WHO.  

In Israel apparently three insurance companies are paying a charter flight to bring 14 Israelis home.  They go into quarantine but I’m not sure who is paying for that.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israelis-onboard-Diamond-Princess-should-be-en-route-home-by-Thursday-617917

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

“Health official in Jingzhou, a city in Hubei province, dies of heart failure caused by overwork, according to local media. She had been working non-stop for 25 days to help in the fight against coronavirus.”

from

BNO

Not the first health worker to die from “heart failure due to overwork” either 

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

“Health official in Jingzhou, a city in Hubei province, dies of heart failure caused by overwork, according to local media. She had been working non-stop for 25 days to help in the fight against coronavirus.”

from

BNO

Not the first health worker to die from “heart failure due to overwork” either 

 

I don’t understand why they aren’t prioritizing sleep and good care of health workers.  

It starts making the “conspiracy theory” of this being used to decrease population seem more believable. 

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t understand why they aren’t prioritizing sleep and good care of health workers.  

Not enough staff even with the military medical staff deployed to help out. The case load is just too high. I forgot if any medical staff died of exhaustion during SARS but many did fell ill from over exhaustion. 

[Pen]

31 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Not enough staff even with the military medical staff deployed to help out. The case load is just too high. I forgot if any medical staff died of exhaustion during SARS but many did fell ill from over exhaustion. 

 

Buuuut, that still makes no sense.  

If people get to sleep and live they are available in an ongoing way. If they are worked to death, staff is that much less, as number of patients grows

[Arcadia]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Buuuut, that still makes no sense.  

If people get to sleep and live they are available in an ongoing way. If they are worked to death, staff is that much less, as number of patients grows

 

It’s crisis situation. Just like those high fatality wildfires. How are medical staff going to get adequate sleep knowing that there is nobody available to take over, or that whoever is taking over is sleeping less so they can sleep more. 

Singapore has a nurse shortage as well. They bring in lots of Filipinos nurses and doctors, and China nurses. Singapore’s coronavirus case load is so small else they would be exhausted like during SARS.

[Shoeless]

17 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Buuuut, that still makes no sense.  

If people get to sleep and live they are available in an ongoing way. If they are worked to death, staff is that much less, as number of patients grows

 

You really can't say to patient in respiratory distress "Sorry, but it's my break time. I need to sleep now".  

[Arcadia]

From CNA https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/covid19-japan-virus-testing-complete-quarantine-cruise-ship-12445788

“(Updated: 18 Feb 2020 01:00PM)

TOKYO: All passengers and crew onboard a ship quarantined off Japan have now been tested for the new coronavirus, the government said Tuesday (Feb 18), as more countries moved to evacuate citizens from the boat.

South Korea became the latest to announce it would remove its citizens from the Diamond Princess, where more than 400 people have tested positive for COVID-19.

Japan has faced criticism for its handling of the situation, with dozens of new infections detected almost daily since the ship arrived in early February.

But it has defended its approach and health minister Katsunobu Kato insisted again Tuesday that passengers who test negative will be allowed to leave the ship from Wednesday.

"We have done tests for everyone (on the ship)," he told reporters.

"Some results have already come out ... and for those whose test results are already clear, we are working to prepare disembarkation from the 19th," he said.

Kato said the process would last two or three days.

But those who had close contact with people who have tested positive will have their quarantine reset to the date of their last contact with an infected person.

Crew are also expected to remain to observe another quarantine period after the last passengers leave the ship.”

[Laura Corin]

8 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

 

The Holiday Inn London - Heathrow Ariel hotel photos doesn’t look too bad https://www.ihg.com/holidayinn/hotels/us/en/london/lonht/hoteldetail

Not sure what’s the weather like in London right now. Kids can play tag on hotel corridors I guess and the conference room can be used for bridge  or chess “tournaments”.

2 weeks in a hotel room with kids is bearable for the kids with cable TV, Internet, tablets, smartphones. 

Windy, rainy, chilly

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Windy, rainy, chilly

I watch English Premier League so I remembered Storm Ciara caused Manchester City’s march to be postponed and then Storm Dennis came along. 

[Pen]

Triage concepts probably need to include staff available - unfortunately.

long ago I had minimal and peripheral involvement in triage preparation, but my recollection is that scenarios and hard decisions were practiced in advance.  

bold added: 

“A ... severe influenza pandemic will put hospitals under extreme stress; only so many beds, ventilators, nurses, and physicians will be available, and so it is likely that more patients will require medical attention than can be completely treated. Triage is the process of sorting patients in a time of crisis to determine who receives what level of medical attention.”

[Ausmumof3]

88 new diamond princess cases so a total of 542 for the ship

total outside mainland China is now 986 (this includes cases from Hong Kong Taiwan and Macau.  I guess tomorrow will see that number go over 1000.

The UK couple that have been quite vocal David and Sally Abel I think they are tested positive without symptoms and have been taken to a hostel. 

[Ausmumof3]

Not sure of the accuracy of google translate but looks like one more infection with the medical crew for DIamond Princess. 

[8filltheheart]

Chian released largest study to date

While the results largely confirm previous descriptions of the virus and patterns of infection, the study includes a detailed breakdown of the 44,672 confirmed cases across all of China.

Some of the conclusions reached include the following:
Some 80.9% of infections are classified as mild, 13.8% as severe and only 4.7% as critical.

The highest fatality rate is for people aged 80 and older, at 14.8%.
For children up to 9, there have been no fatalities and up to the age of 39, the death rate remains low at 0.2%.

For the next age groups, the fatality rates increase gradually: For people in their 40s it is 0.4%, in their 50s it is 1.3%, in their 60s it is 3.6% and their 70s it is 8%.

Looking at the sex ratio, men are more likely to die (2.8%) than women (1.7%).

Identifying which existing illnesses put patients at risk, the study finds cardiovascular disease at number one, followed by diabetes, chronic respiratory disease and hypertension.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51540981

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, Arcadia said:

It’s crisis situation. Just like those high fatality wildfires. How are medical staff going to get adequate sleep knowing that there is nobody available to take over, or that whoever is taking over is sleeping less so they can sleep more. 

By realizing that they didn't create the crisis and can't possibly work enough hours to save enough people. By realizing that after the crisis is over, people will still need medical care. By realizing their bodies aren't going to give them a choice before long. By realizing that conquering this doesn't solve the problem that there could be another nasty virus another year.

They aren't just at risk of contracting the virus or dying from it, but having PTSD, long-term damage from running on adrenaline, etc. They aren't all [generally young] med students who "expect" to be worked to death.

Work potentially a lot of extra hours? Sure! Work weeks straight with no days off and no sleep? No. Will healthcare workers still die? Probably, but so far, it seems like if protocols are followed, it's less likely. If that breaks down, that stinks, but it's not fixable by killing off the healthcare workers. 

[Starr]

Has anyone sorted out what needs to be on hand at home for symptoms? The same as for the flu or bronchitis? 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Chian released largest study to date

 

The study has more details, tables, and charts, if anyone wants to read http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51

“Confirmed cases, case severity, and case fatality rates among health workers in different areas of China and different time periods are presented in Table 2. A total of 1,080 confirmed cases among health workers have been found in Wuhan, accounting for 64.0% of national total. An additional 394 health worker cases (23.3%) were found in Hubei Province (excluding Wuhan), and 214 cases (12.7%) were found in the other 30 PLADs. The proportion of health worker cases that were severe or critical was 17.7% in Wuhan, 10.4% in Hubei Province, 7.0% in the remaining 30 PLADs, and 14.6% overall. The proportion of health worker cases in Wuhan classified as severe or critical declined from 38.9% in early January to 12.7% in early February. In China overall, the severe or critical cases among health workers also declined—from 45.0% in early January to 8.7% in early February.”

ETA: pdf link http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/fileCCDCW/journal/article/ccdcw/newcreate/COVID-19.pdf

Edited February 18, 2020 by Arcadia

[Katy]

17 minutes ago, Starr said:

Has anyone sorted out what needs to be on hand at home for symptoms? The same as for the flu or bronchitis? 

 

You should have those things on hand during flu season anyway.  But it seems like with this virus you either have very mild symptoms or you need to be in the ICU.

ETA:  Actually having a pulse ox monitor at home might be a really good thing.  Then you'd know if you needed to get someone to the hospital: https://www.amazon.com/TrackAid-Portable-Saturation-Monitor-Display/dp/B07BNL9M4C

Edited February 18, 2020 by Katy

[mathnerd]

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

By realizing that they didn't create the crisis and can't possibly work enough hours to save enough people. By realizing that after the crisis is over, people will still need medical care. By realizing their bodies aren't going to give them a choice before long. By realizing that conquering this doesn't solve the problem that there could be another nasty virus another year.

They aren't just at risk of contracting the virus or dying from it, but having PTSD, long-term damage from running on adrenaline, etc. They aren't all [generally young] med students who "expect" to be worked to death.

Work potentially a lot of extra hours? Sure! Work weeks straight with no days off and no sleep? No. Will healthcare workers still die? Probably, but so far, it seems like if protocols are followed, it's less likely. If that breaks down, that stinks, but it's not fixable by killing off the healthcare workers. 

The part where you said that they have to realize that there could be another nasty virus another year rings so true. We have had bird flu, swine flu and the recent covid one: it seems to me that each new flu virus originating from china is deadlier than the one before. I am worried about how bad the next virus to emerge might turn out. better not to exhaust them all and create permanent damage to them. 

I find it hard to believe that the chinese government is not deploying more military medical professionals to combat this issue after it has become such a big crisis to them. If the civilian medical professionals are overwhelmed and the situation is a national disaster, they should pull out all stops to fix this ASAP or swallow their pride and take help from whoever is willing to help.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

By realizing that they didn't create the crisis and can't possibly work enough hours to save enough people. By realizing that after the crisis is over, people will still need medical care. By realizing their bodies aren't going to give them a choice before long. By realizing that conquering this doesn't solve the problem that there could be another nasty virus another year.

They aren't just at risk of contracting the virus or dying from it, but having PTSD, long-term damage from running on adrenaline, etc. They aren't all [generally young] med students who "expect" to be worked to death.

Work potentially a lot of extra hours? Sure! Work weeks straight with no days off and no sleep? No. Will healthcare workers still die? Probably, but so far, it seems like if protocols are followed, it's less likely. If that breaks down, that stinks, but it's not fixable by killing off the healthcare workers. 

 

I think I was presuming that it was a top down management (mis-management) issue, not individual medical workers deciding.  

I was assuming that in PR China, decisions in health care management were ultimately probably largely Party driven, not individual doctor or nurse level driven, nor even individual hospital administration driven (nor CDC, insurance company, Medicare , and/or corporate health provider company driven as it might be in US now—“sorry, Medicare only pays for one half hour session of respiratory therapy, you’ll have to leave now”).  I may have assumed wrong. 

 

In a well run epidemic situation I’d expect patients to have been triaged, and when a medical worker is dealing with someone in crisis, that there would be a planned system for rest/sleep.  Ideally another medical worker who would be taking the place of the one leaving would arrive signaling the time for the one whose turn it was to sleep to depart.  

Much like being on watch systems in military. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The UK couple that have been quite vocal David and Sally Abel I think they are tested positive without symptoms and have been taken to a hostel. 

Thanks for finding that. I had been worried about them. They were so adorable and then just disappeared.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Starr said:

Has anyone sorted out what needs to be on hand at home for symptoms? The same as for the flu or bronchitis? 

 

Yes. Probably so.

 I am trying to avoid getting to symptoms stage in first place (hand washing, keeping hands away from my eyes, nose, mouth, taking various vitamins that I think may help especially vitamin D3, keeping warm especially  ears/head warm).

Having 2-3 weeks food etc available in case of need to quarantine at home.

[Arcadia]

23 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think I was presuming that it was a top down management (mis-management) issue, not individual medical workers deciding.  

 

I think the only top down management is the deployment of military medical staff by the central govt. China is huge land mass wise and provincial govt takes care of their local hospitals. The medical workers are humans, it’s hard to rest when your hometown people are dying 😞

While China typically gets a bad press, just look at the Diamond Princess situation in Japan. I don’t think anyone outside of Japan volunteered to help. I have not seen any news articles of medical trained people volunteering to go to Wuhan or even Japan to help. All I have seen is researchers wanting to go in and look see and get specimens. 

Quoted is from a Feb 14th article, the first deployment was on Feb 2nd https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/14/WS5e45f310a310128217277787.html

“Another 1,200 medics, the remainder of the third group, will be sent to Wuhan in coming days according to the needs of local hospitals, including temporary hospitals built for the outbreak, the statement said. The deployment of the third group was approved by President Xi Jinping, who is also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, it said.

Two earlier groups of medics, totaling 1,400 members, have been working at a local temporary hospital for more than 10 days.”

[Arcadia]

From CNA https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/robber-thieves-steal-6000-hygiene-masks-japan-coronavirus-12446862

“(Updated: 18 Feb 2020 05:52PM)

TOKYO: Thieves in Japan have made off with some 6,000 surgical masks from a hospital, with the country facing a mass shortage and a huge price hike online due to the coronavirus.

Four boxes containing the face masks disappeared from a locked storage facility at the Japanese Red Cross hospital in the western port city of Kobe, a hospital official said on Tuesday (Feb 17).

"We still have a large number of masks - enough to continue our daily operations at the hospital, but this is so deplorable," the official told AFP.”

[Farrar]

26 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 I think being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people who think being confined on a boat while they drink, swim, and listen to crappy entertainment is exciting would be a living hell even without a possible illness.

My father had a heart issue on a cruise once and indeed it sounded like it was terrible. When he was dying, later, in the ICU, he was convinced he was on a cruise and we'd all come to see him there. It was both hilarious and horrible at the same time.

[Violet Crown]

28 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 I think being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people who think being confined on a boat while they drink, swim, and listen to crappy entertainment is exciting would be a living hell even without a possible illness.

I'm confident you've read David Foster Wallace on the subject.

[Laurie]

There have been a few university students tested for the virus so I've been nervous about my son possibly being exposed to it on campus.  Fortunately the students' symptoms weren't severe so they were isolated but didn't have to be hospitalized while waiting for the test results...and thankfully they tested negative.  

Then last night I saw this news story...the man was a comedian on the cruise ship that ended up in Cambodia.    He cheated the hotel quarantine before his test results came back in order to fly  to Seattle and drive to his home in Eugene OR.  He doesn't think he's a risk to anyone because he doesn't have symptoms!    I hope his test comes back negative so that he hasn't exposed all the people he came into contact with as he made his escape.  And I hope there's no outbreak in Eugene because my son is supposed to go there in a few weeks.  

He's quite proud of himself:   https://komonews.com/news/local/man-stranded-on-coronavirus-infected-cruise-ship-arrives-at-sea-tac-airport

 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Laurie said:

There have been a few university students tested for the virus so I've been nervous about my son possibly being exposed to it on campus.  Fortunately the students' symptoms weren't severe so they were isolated but didn't have to be hospitalized while waiting for the test results...and thankfully they tested negative.  

Then last night I saw this news story...the man was a comedian on the cruise ship that ended up in Cambodia.    He cheated the hotel quarantine before his test results came back in order to fly  to Seattle and drive to his home in Eugene OR.  He doesn't think he's a risk to anyone because he doesn't have symptoms!    I hope his test comes back negative so that he hasn't exposed all the people he came into contact with as he made his escape.  And I hope there's no outbreak in Eugene because my son is supposed to go there in a few weeks.  

He's quite proud of himself:   https://komonews.com/news/local/man-stranded-on-coronavirus-infected-cruise-ship-arrives-at-sea-tac-airport

 

 

 

"There was no official 'you can't leave' (at the hotel) but if you tried to go out the front door with your luggage, security would stop you," King said. "But if you went out with your backpack and you were sightseeing, not a problem“.  

WTH?  Sightseeing was ok?

Guy seems like maybe a jerk?   It’s true he’s probably not carrying the virus, but the idea that if he is it’s fine to expose lots of people in multiple cities because his job speaking about suicide prevention might save a life is so 😤    I’m thinking, hey, they can watch the TEDx talk without putting anyone at risk 

 

Eugene is a city I frequently go to from my rural area for anything requiring a city bigger than our nearest city of 5000.  A lot of people have been sick this winter, so care as to ordinary colds/flu/stomach flu would be a good idea anyway.    

ETA: after Eugene it sounded like he was headed to somewhere in Arizona to give his suicide prevention talk.  If he does turn out positive there will be lots of contact tracing needed...

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 I think being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people who think being confined on a boat while they drink, swim, and listen to crappy entertainment is exciting would be a living hell even without a possible illness.

You do you, but there are people who cruise and don't drink, don't do the entertainment, and enjoy a very quiet life on the cruise ship. I just spent two weeks on a beautiful ship, doing the serenity deck and the spa, eating gelato, enjoying a room cleaned twice a day by a steward, no wet bedding to wash, no cooking, italian dinners where they sing to you, the moon and the stars, dive in recent movies. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

I think the only top down management is the deployment of military medical staff by the central govt. China is huge land mass wise and provincial govt takes care of their local hospitals. The medical workers are humans, it’s hard to rest when your hometown people are dying 😞

While China typically gets a bad press, just look at the Diamond Princess situation in Japan. I don’t think anyone outside of Japan volunteered to help. I have not seen any news articles of medical trained people volunteering to go to Wuhan or even Japan to help. All I have seen is researchers wanting to go in and look see and get specimens. 

Quoted is from a Feb 14th article, the first deployment was on Feb 2nd https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202002/14/WS5e45f310a310128217277787.html

“Another 1,200 medics, the remainder of the third group, will be sent to Wuhan in coming days according to the needs of local hospitals, including temporary hospitals built for the outbreak, the statement said. The deployment of the third group was approved by President Xi Jinping, who is also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, it said.

Two earlier groups of medics, totaling 1,400 members, have been working at a local temporary hospital for more than 10 days.”

 

I understand.

part of training includes things like walking (albeit quickly) rather than running through hospital corridors when there’s an emergency, because it’s human to feel panicky and want run to get to patient faster, but is generally counterproductive in reality 

similarly there used to be (maybe no longer though) drills for emergency scenarios of many sorts

A lot of what is needed to manage well for longer term good is a matter of training rather than doing what seems natural to do

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Violet Crown said:

I'm confident you've read David Foster Wallace on the subject.

Haha, not VC, but I hadn't seen that! I'm liking his line about cruise ship colors being Calvinist, haha. So it's a spiritual experience. I'll roll with that. 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

Guy seems like maybe a jerk?

He may well be an extra big jerk, but there are *so* many people who just don’t care or don’t believe science and math or just think that bad things can’t happen in 1st world countries.

Which is a big part of why it could.

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, Starr said:

Has anyone sorted out what needs to be on hand at home for symptoms? The same as for the flu or bronchitis? 

For severe cases in Wuhan where they weren’t able to be hospitalised some families had oxygen tanks at home 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

You do you, but there are people who cruise and don't drink, don't do the entertainment, and enjoy a very quiet life on the cruise ship. I just spent two weeks on a beautiful ship, doing the serenity deck and the spa, eating gelato, enjoying a room cleaned twice a day by a steward, no wet bedding to wash, no cooking, italian dinners where they sing to you, the moon and the stars, dive in recent movies. 

My auntie who has a disability that significantly limits her movement is finally being able to travel and see parts of the world she’d never normally be able to manage thanks to cruise ships.  It has been lovely to hear her stories and how much pleasure she gets from all her adventures.

I get the feeling from talking to her that there are cruises and cruises.  Some really have the party boat atmosphere but a couple she’s been on just have a lot of older people that want a nice holiday without a lot of getting in and out of cars and walking and the usual difficulties with travel.  I think that’s why the thought of this on a cruise ship worries me a lot because the demographic is often older.

[Ausmumof3]

Cases outside mainland China are at 999

[Pen]

43 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

He may well be an extra big jerk, but there are *so* many people who just don’t care or don’t believe science and math or just think that bad things can’t happen in 1st world countries.

Which is a big part of why it could.

 

On his way to Arkansas, not Arizona, I guess.  

I wonder if it will increase his audience if people think he’s hot stuff for sneaking out of Cambodia and into SeaTac or decrease audience if people think he’s a jerk (or even possibly a Covid asymptomatic carrier).  

[Pen]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/17/asia/coronavirus-covid-19-update-intl-hnk/index.html

a head doctor in Wuhan dies