JAWM Update- he's coming home.

[MaBelle]

I'm sure some of you remember that this sumer we gave my niece a registered Khemosabi bred Arabian.  He was/is green broke.  We gave him to her with the expectation that she would finish his training, show him, enjoy him etc.  Now she says she doesn't have time and wants to sell him.  I say why didn't she think of that before we gave her such a valuable animal. 
 

I'm livid.  Barely three months and she doesn't have time.  I called her mom and told her that we would be happy to come and get him and finish him ourselves and that he would be here after college and summers.

She said she would talk to her dd.  To me it's a no brainer.  So now if she doesn't agree I'll just have to suck it up.  &*$%#%^ sums up how I feel.

Edited October 15, 2019 by MaBelle

[Catwoman]

Wow. I would be livid, too!

[SquirrellyMama]

Do you have to suck it up? I'd be very angry also.

Kelly

[umsami]

I can't see them not agreeing.   

[Selkie]

Wow, she's got some nerve saying she's going to sell him! If she has a scrap of decency, she'll give him back to you.

[MaBelle]

7 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

Do you have to suck it up? I'd be very angry also.

Kelly

I can either suck it up or risk my relationship with my sister who is absolutely unrealistic about her two girls.  We are very close.

I'm so pissed my dh is keeping his distance in case he's collateral damage.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Wow, she's got some nerve saying she's going to sell him! If she has a scrap of decency, she'll give him back to you.

 

I agree! And I can’t imagine that her niece’s mom said “she would talk to her dd.” What is there to talk about???

Edited October 13, 2019 by Catwoman

[MaBelle]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

I agree! And I can’t imagine that her mom said “she would talk to her dd.” What is there to talk about???

Yes, I'm becoming dangerously upset with my sister.

[PeterPan]

Or it's that she wants the money for something. If she just wanted to be done with the horse, she would have offered it back.

[MaBelle]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Or it's that she wants the money for something. If she just wanted to be done with the horse, she would have offered it back.

Yep.  Money is tight with them mostly because they spend what they don't have. Which is why dh and I gifted this horse to her.  She never could have afforded him. She won't get a decent price for him green broke, she knows nothing about selling horses, who know where he might end up and she'll spend the money on crap.

My fault for not making it clear in advance that he was not to be sold, so now I'm a bitch and taking him back.

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by MaBelle

[Selkie]

1 minute ago, MaBelle said:

Yep.  Money is tight with them mostly because they spend what they don't have.  She won't get a decent price for him green broke, she knows nothing about selling horses, who know where he might end up and she'll spend the money on crap.

This was my first thought, too - I'd be so worried about what happens to him. I've seen way too many horses, including very valuable ones, end up in horrible situations.🙁

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

Yep.  Money is tight with them mostly because they spend what they don't have. Which is why dh and I gifted this horse to her.  She never could have afforded him. She won't get a decent price for him green broke, she knows nothing about selling horses, who know where he might end up and she'll spend the money on crap.

My fault for not making it clear in advance that he was not to be sold, so now I'm a bitch and taking him back.

 

 

Well, it seems pretty obvious that you wouldn’t have wanted the horse to be sold. Your sister certainly knows that!

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

Yes, I'm becoming dangerously upset with my sister.

 

I don’t blame you a bit!!!

[MaBelle]

And I'm sure niece is upset with me anyway because when I went to see how they were working out I told her she was just playing saddle club and not doing serious work with the  horse.

[Catwoman]

Just now, MaBelle said:

And I'm sure niece is upset with me anyway because when I went to see how they were working out I told her she was just playing saddle club and not doing serious work with the  horse.

 

You were telling her the truth, so she can suck it up and deal with it!

[SquirrellyMama]

12 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

I can either suck it up or risk my relationship with my sister who is absolutely unrealistic about her two girls.  We are very close.

I'm so pissed my dh is keeping his distance in case he's collateral damage.

I get what you're saying and I'm sorry they have put you in this position. 

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I get what you're saying and I'm sorry they have put you in this position. 

 

I agree. Her sister should make sure her dd does what’s right. Selling the horse is WRONG and there is no way to defend it.

[Jentrovert]

I would be livid too. Especially since it involves a living creature. Normally I am of the opinion that once given, a gift is not yours anymore and you have no say in it. However, I would still be livid in this situation. Have the papers been transferred to her name?

[gardenmom5]

gently-   I think you're over estimating the relationship you have with your sister.   It seems more important to you than to her.

[MaBelle]

53 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

gently-   I think you're over estimating the relationship you have with your sister.   It seems more important to you than to her.

I think you don't know either one of us and this was a JAWM.  Not asking for commentary on my sister.

[DesertBlossom]

3 hours ago, parent said:

Yes, the right thing would be for her to return the horse to you... but once a gift is given, it belongs to the recipient.  So she thinks it's her horse now to do with what she pleases.  Don't destroy your relationship.  Take the high road and you won't get muddy.  The reason forgiveness is hard is because you have has been wronged.

Easier said than done, I know.  I would be furious... but I would try to at least find the least offending path.  Maybe say how you are emotionally bonded to that horse and you would be devastated if he left the family... ?  Best of luck.

I don't know. I think in this case she needs to be told outright that this is not okay.

[KungFuPanda]

I don’t think the “gift freely given” theory applies to a living creature. Everyone knows that if you can’t keep a dog, you return it to a reputable breeder. I’d make it clear that this horses was a gift for her to use, not monetize. If she doesn’t have the time, well it didn’t work out and she returns the animal. It’s not cash or a sweater. 

[Catwoman]

42 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I don’t think the “gift freely given” theory applies to a living creature. Everyone knows that if you can’t keep a dog, you return it to a reputable breeder. I’d make it clear that this horses was a gift for her to use, not monetize. If she doesn’t have the time, well it didn’t work out and she returns the animal. It’s not cash or a sweater. 

 

I think this is a very sensible approach! 

[MaBelle]

5 hours ago, parent said:

Sounded like she already told her sister that she wanted the horse back and would come get it.  So, yes say you want it back, say it's not ok, but I think the OP needs to be willing to let it go as her sister is more important than the horse.

 

If I pay $2k for a dog and then find out a child is allergic or I break my knee or for some reason cannot keep the dog, I will find the dog a good home and recoup my losses.   I am not giving it back to the breeder without a refund, which is why I would avoid a breeder with that contract clause.  We would be importing and will not have that type of contract so would be a non issue for us anyway.  I think that's ridiculous for a breeder to demand a returned dog and not provide a refund.  IF it was given to me or I was fostering, of course I would return it freely.  But not if I paid for it.

 

Did the niece help pay in anyway?  It occurred to me if she helped pay or has otherwise invested in the horse, she may want to recoup that.  From the OP, I assume it was a complete gift.

I totally agree that the right path for the niece/sister is to return the horse.  But I would not cause a rift over it.  I mean, I wish I had a sister more than I wish I had a horse.

Yes.  Although I could happily write both my nieces off my sister and I will always be essential to each other. Her only fault is over compensating her daughters after divorcing their father.   So I hope for the horse back here but if niece sells him that's it.

[PrincessMommy]

13 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Yep.  Money is tight with them mostly because they spend what they don't have. Which is why dh and I gifted this horse to her.  She never could have afforded him. She won't get a decent price for him green broke, she knows nothing about selling horses, who know where he might end up and she'll spend the money on crap.

My fault for not making it clear in advance that he was not to be sold, so now I'm a bitch and taking him back.

 

Can you say that to your sister in a nice way?  May something like, "When I gave it I fully expected niece to train and love this horse for years, I never expected this outcome and should have told her that I didn't want her to sell it."  Or something like that?  

[wintermom]

Just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, how old is this niece?

[HS Mom in NC]

14 hours ago, MaBelle said:

 

My fault for not making it clear in advance that he was not to be sold,

 

Agreed. 

When I gave my niece the rocking chair I inherited from my grandmother, I explicitly stated happily, "You're welcome to use this rocking chair as long as you have a child to rock in it, but it's my chair.  When you no longer want to rock a child in it, it comes back to me.  I'm delighted that you have it as many years as you like for rocking children like my grandmother rocked my mother, me, my brother, and we rocked out kids in it, but it's my chair. Enjoy!"

My brother and SIL are now rocking their child in it, but it's my chair. I hope it makes the rounds for every relative I have who wants to rock children it in, but it will eventually come back to me.

[I talk to the trees]

Ugh! Your niece sounds like a real stinker! Could you grit your teeth and be the one who “buys” the horse from her (I'm feeling snarky for you, so I might deduct quite a bit in “time and transport fees” from the sale.)  Make sure that you both have copies of the receipt for the transaction, since she sounds like the type who would try to reclaim this gift some time in the future when the money has been squandered, and she realizes what she has lost.

You could also send the hive after her! I’m sure we could give her plenty of good advice about how to behave when given such a generous gift! 😉

[MaBelle]

39 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, how old is this niece?

Almost 18.  Going off to college next year and horse was supposed to go with her.  Although she is a fabulous rider and shows she apparently is not a trainer.  She came to our ranch several times to try out the horse and we felt they were a good match.  Dh and I did not go into this on the spur of the moment.

[MaBelle]

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

Can you say that to your sister in a nice way?  May something like, "When I gave it I fully expected niece to train and love this horse for years, I never expected this outcome and should have told her that I didn't want her to sell it."  Or something like that?  

This is quite possible.  This sister is the family peacemaker and I know she's upset about the whole thing, but she doesn't have it in her to be firm with her girls.  

[HS Mom in NC]

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I don’t think the “gift freely given” theory applies to a living creature. Everyone knows that if you can’t keep a dog, you return it to a reputable breeder. I’d make it clear that this horses was a gift for her to use, not monetize. If she doesn’t have the time, well it didn’t work out and she returns the animal. It’s not cash or a sweater. 

Except everyone doesn't know that or agree with that.  I do agree with that one.  We returned our rabbits we had to the breeder, but it's naive to think everyone has the same point of view on that or any other issue. Adults are old enough to have notice that people are different, and have different ideas, values, beliefs, habits, practices, personalities, customs, subcultures, attitudes, standards, norms, behavioral patterns, thoughts...Adults should know that everyone is different and if they have expectations of another person's behavior they need to state it explicitly, clearly, and upfront, in a civil tone. 

Sooooo many conflicts in life are easily avoided when we stop irrationally expecting other people to read our minds, and instead simply speak our minds.

[gardenmom5]

16 hours ago, parent said:

Yes, the right thing would be for her to return the horse to you... but once a gift is given, it belongs to the recipient.  So she thinks it's her horse now to do with what she pleases.  Don't destroy your relationship.  Take the high road and you won't get muddy.  The reason forgiveness is hard is because you have has been wronged.

Easier said than done, I know.  I would be furious... but I would try to at least find the least offending path.  Maybe say how you are emotionally bonded to that horse and you would be devastated if he left the family... ?  Best of luck.

Except in this case, the "gift" is a LIVING animal.   she needs to give it back.

[ktgrok]

Was this one of YOUR horses to start with, that you gave her? If so, I'd tell niece that all your horses are sold with a clause in the contract that they come back to you if it doesn't work out. that since it was a gift you didn't think to have her sign a contract, but you definitely want the horse back and will think of another birthday gift (a nice sweater seems perfect). 

[zimom]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Was this one of YOUR horses to start with, that you gave her? If so, I'd tell niece that all your horses are sold with a clause in the contract that they come back to you if it doesn't work out. that since it was a gift you didn't think to have her sign a contract, but you definitely want the horse back and will think of another birthday gift (a nice sweater seems perfect). 

or a clause of 'right of first refusal' to buy him back.   Would be interesting to see if niece asks for $$

[Pen]

Could you go to their house with a trailer and pick up the horse?  

If it were a car or something and entirely about money it would be distressing, but it’s about the well being of a sentient living animal.  

 

 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, parent said:

Actually, I think it's very bad form in the case of any expensive gift.  If it had been a car and then she sold it in 3 months. I would also find that very inappropriate.   It's still bad form with a less prominent gift but then the giver is less likely to discover it so not as "in your face."

I think everyone agrees that right thing is for the niece to return the horse.  The question is more about how the OP can encourage her to return it and the OP's response if her niece doesn't do the right thing.

 

were horse ownership documents put in nieces name? 

 

 

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, MaBelle said:

Almost 18.  Going off to college next year and horse was supposed to go with her.  Although she is a fabulous rider and shows she apparently is not a trainer.  She came to our ranch several times to try out the horse and we felt they were a good match.  Dh and I did not go into this on the spur of the moment.

No, I don't believe you did go into this with on the spur of the moment. It is quite obvious that you love your horses, and that this took you completely by surprise.  Was you niece going to do a horse training program or something like that at college, where having a horse would be part of the deal? 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, parent said:

Actually, I think it's very bad form in the case of any expensive gift.  If it had been a car and then she sold it in 3 months. I would also find that very inappropriate.   It's still bad form with a less prominent gift but then the giver is less likely to discover it so not as "in your face."

I think everyone agrees that right thing is for the niece to return the horse.  The question is more about how the OP can encourage her to return it and the OP's response if her niece doesn't do the right thing.

a car is an inanimate object.  it would be very tacky and crass to sell such an expensive gift - but it's not putting a living animal at risk.  if she is so uncomfortable with this horse (I too assume her "too busy" is an excuse), who knows to whom she would sell it so she could unload it.  while there are people on this thread saying "I would make sure it went to a good home." - well, you don't know this girl will, she might just sell it to the first person who will pay.

for to those who object about dogs/cats going back to breeders - they should read their contracts more closely.  some breeders stipulate in their contract when you buy a dog/cat that you *can't sell* (or give away) your animal. they require it be returned if it doesn't work out for you.    they take applications from potential buyers (and will turn people down.)  They want to make sure the offspring are in a good place.   

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think the only thing to do is to try a shocked reaction (which is not dishonest; you are shocked). Also include @Ktgrok's language about having foregone the standard contract because this was a gift. I'm going to do this script fashion, just to convey what I mean:

"Sis, I know we discussed dniece's desire to sell the horse that we gave her. We left it that you would talk to her about this, but I don't think I clearly expressed how genuinely shocked we are that this is happening. We thought long and hard about giving this horse to dniece. In the end, we chose to do it, because we care about dniece and we care about the horse, and we thought they would be a good match. We thought the horse would have a good owner and a good home. When a horse leaves our ranch, we usually require the signing of a contract that says the horse will come back to us, if things don't work out. We didn't require dniece or you to sign the contract because this wasn't a transaction - this was a gift, from a loving aunt and uncle to a dear niece. We had hoped she would finish his training and it would be a good arrangement. But if that's not going to happen, we expect the horse to be returned to us. He must not be sold. If dniece will not keep him, our expectation is that you will let us know when we may come to bring him home." 

This was too long ^^^ but I would definitely use the words "shocked" and "expectation." It's not being bitchy. You don't have to walk on eggshells. They should be made to understand how upset you are and how inappropriate this is - they should be concerned about offending you, not the other way around. Maybe they don't know, for some reason, why this is not OK. If they don't care and they get mad at you forever, because you didn't lay down and accept not only their rudeness but their disregard for this animal...I hope that doesn't happen, but it's not your fault, if it does. It's right to speak up.

[MaBelle]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

were horse ownership documents put in nieces name? 

 

 

Yep.  Im an idiot.

 

[Pen]

 

 It reminds me of poor Black Beauty book.

 

maybe use words not just “shocked” but like “shocked, appalled, dismayed, utterly distressed and beside yourself with grief”

[Pen]

And will never get over it if that horse is sold.

[sassenach]

You don't seem afraid of confrontation, so I'd probably go straight at it. Talk directly with the niece and say, "I didn't say this because I didn't think I would have to, but if you're not keeping the horse, I would like him back." Don't go through your sister, since she's a pushover. Just tell niece, "I'll be by on such and such date to pick him up."

I would state it as a fact, not a question. Niece is 17, which I've always found to be a highly self-centered age, but still young enough to exert some authority over. 

[Catwoman]

29 minutes ago, sassenach said:

You don't seem afraid of confrontation, so I'd probably go straight at it. Talk directly with the niece and say, "I didn't say this because I didn't think I would have to, but if you're not keeping the horse, I would like him back." Don't go through your sister, since she's a pushover. Just tell niece, "I'll be by on such and such date to pick him up."

I would state it as a fact, not a question. Niece is 17, which I've always found to be a highly self-centered age, but still young enough to exert some authority over. 

 

That makes a lot of sense. It would probably make it a lot harder for the niece to sell the horse, because it would be incredibly awkward for her to refuse a direct (and preferably in-person) request for his return. It will be a lot easier to sell the horse if the niece can get her mom to be the one in the middle, so she doesn’t have to speak directly with MaBelle about it. If the niece can get her mom to stick up for her, the dispute will be between her mom and MaBelle.

Hopefully, the niece will realize that it would be wrong to sell the horse, and she will return him to MaBelle without a fight. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Catwoman

[Pen]

“Conditional gift is one that is subject to or dependent on a condition. A conditional gift can be revoked if the recipient does not fulfill the conditions attached to the gift. A gift is a conditional gift and it is not final until some future event occurs. If the particular event does not occur, the person making the gift has the right to get back the gift. A common example of “conditional gift” is “A shall gift his car to C, if C is alive at A’s death.”

obviously the example seems to be not at all applicable, but it seems to me that the horse was a gift conditional upon niece training and riding the horse, not intended to be converted into a cash amount

[gardenmom5]

59 minutes ago, sassenach said:

You don't seem afraid of confrontation, so I'd probably go straight at it. Talk directly with the niece and say, "I didn't say this because I didn't think I would have to, but if you're not keeping the horse, I would like him back." Don't go through your sister, since she's a pushover. Just tell niece, "I'll be by on such and such date to pick him up."

I would state it as a fact, not a question. Niece is 17, which I've always found to be a highly self-centered age, but still young enough to exert some authority over. 

if her mother really is a pushover - niece may be quite shocked to have someone call her on her nonsense and not back down.  the world will eventually do it, so it might as well get started.

[Catwoman]

31 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

if her mother really is a pushover - niece may be quite shocked to have someone call her on her nonsense and not back down.  the world will eventually do it, so it might as well get started.

 

MaBelle’s sister seems like a very nice person, so it's hard to imagine the niece not doing the right thing. Even if the niece is very spoiled, she should still know right from wrong, and even if she was hoping that MaBelle would be okay with her selling the horse, as soon as she found out that MaBelle objected and wanted the horse back, she should have immediately offered exactly that. 

It was tacky of her to want to sell the horse at all, but maybe she honestly thought it wouldn’t be a problem. I am curious to find out what she will do now that she realizes that it is a problem. 

I will admit to being somewhat shocked that MaBelle’s sister would have even entertained the idea of her dd selling the horse. Even the most easygoing parent has to put her foot down sometimes, and this is something that could put a huge rift not just between MaBelle and the niece, but between MaBelle and her sister, as well. I would hope that MaBelle’s sister has that in mind when she discusses the matter with her dd.

[gardenmom5]

54 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

M 

I will admit to being somewhat shocked that MaBelle’s sister would have even entertained the idea of her dd selling the horse. Even the most easygoing parent has to put her foot down sometimes, and this is something that could put a huge rift not just between MaBelle and the niece, but between MaBelle and her sister, as well. I would hope that MaBelle’s sister has that in mind when she discusses the matter with her dd.

especially since she insists they have a great relationship, but she's said multiple times she thinks her sister, essentially, allows her daughters too much leeway.  which is probably why the idea of selling the horse wasn't immediately shut down by the sister.

I agree - it needs to be shut down.  even if Mabelle has to do it herself.

 

[matrips]

I hadn’t seen the post you mentioned about this summer where you gifted the horse, so I did do a search for that.  In one of the posts, you did tell us that you told your niece the horse was hers to do with as she pleased- train, show, sell, whatever.  While I wouldn’t have the gumption to sell such an expensive and generous gift, especially so soon, perhaps she took what you said to heart. Maybe just rethink what you may have really told her. She may have heard or remembered something different than you.

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, matrips said:

I hadn’t seen the post you mentioned about this summer where you gifted the horse, so I did do a search for that.  In one of the posts, you did tell us that you told your niece the horse was hers to do with as she pleased- train, show, sell, whatever.  While I wouldn’t have the gumption to sell such an expensive and generous gift, especially so soon, perhaps she took what you said to heart. Maybe just rethink what you may have really told her. She may have heard or remembered something different than you.

 

Oh, dear. 

I just found the thread you mentioned, and... well... if this is the same niece, it changes everything. I know MaBelle’s sister has two daughters, so maybe the thread was about the other daughter?

Otherwise, it sounds like MaBelle gave the niece her permission to sell the horse, and in that case, the niece has the right to do exactly that. If MaBelle wants him back, I guess she would have to offer to buy him from her niece. Obviously, it would be kind of the niece to give the horse back, but it doesn’t sound like it was a requirement.

In that old thread, it also seemed like the niece was afraid of the horse, and was going so far as to fake an asthma attack so she could quit riding him one day. It sounds like the horse and the niece were a bad match. (Again, I’m assuming it’s the same niece.)